1 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Welcome to next question. I'm here's for as 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: Katherine Curry is standing by at the Civic Center station 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: right now. Actually I'm Katie currk Well John. About every 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: ten minutes a metrorail train is arriving here at the 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: station dropping off concert goers. Yep, that's me in night 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: Something reporting for the local CBS affiliate w t VJ 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: in Miami. I gotta tell you, Miami was such a 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: great news town for a young reporter. It had immigration, 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: extreme weather like hurricanes, and crime galore. It was action 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: central North Miami Beach. Police say crimes like personatchings are 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: up at the sixty Street Mall, partly because many shoppers 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: are elderly and easy targets, and with Christmas fast approaching, 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: the problem will get worse. Shoppers are scared and it 14 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: was the perfect place to find my footing as a 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: news reporter. The experience was invaluable. But that was nearly 16 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: forty years ago. Unfortunately, today, local news, particularly print, just 17 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: isn't what it used to be. In fact, it's an 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: industry in crisis since the pandemic. Another papers have gone 19 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: out of business, and overall it's been you know, since 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: two thousand four it's been over two thousand papers in 21 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: the country, mostly weeklies, but weeklies are important, you know, 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: and some dailies too, So it's a really heartbreaking story. 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: Margaret Sullivan is a longtime journalist. She is now the 24 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: media columnist for the Washington Post, and back in she 25 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: wrote an excellent book called Ghosting the News, Local Journalism 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: and the Crisis of American Democracy. If you're paying attention, 27 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: the book will scare the pants off of you, because 28 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: the dire state of local news isn't just bad for 29 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: budding journalists, it's bad for everyone. It matters so much 30 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: because we don't trust and Moore as a as a nation, 31 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: we don't trust in the press, but we do still 32 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: have a great deal of trust in local news. So 33 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: it's this weird paradox of Okay, well, this is the 34 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: trusted this is the trusted media, but it's withering and 35 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: it's going away. Because local news was such an integral 36 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: part of my life and career, I wanted to talk 37 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: to Margaret about the state of it. Margaret also got 38 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: her start in local news working for one of her 39 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: hometown papers, the Buffalo Evening News, back in the eighties. 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: I came there straight out of school, and you know, 41 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: I had internship offers at the two papers in Buffalo, 42 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: which is my hometown. And I remember saying to my dad, Um, 43 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: should I go to work for the Buffalo Evening News 44 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: or the Buffalo Courier Express. And he said, I think 45 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: he was a lawyer, you know, he was pretty savvy guy, 46 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: and he said, I think the Evening News is the 47 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,839 Speaker 1: dominant paper. And turns out father knows best because two 48 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: years I did go to work there. They hired me 49 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: at the end of my internship, and two years later 50 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: the Courier Express was out of business. Smart smartness, right dead. 51 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: So I stayed at the News for a long time 52 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: and I um did every job, and eventually I became 53 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: the first woman editor of the paper, the top editor, 54 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: and it was an incredible honor. Yeah, thank you, it was. 55 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: You know. Really, even though I've now been you know, 56 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: I've worked for the New York Times in the Washington Post, 57 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: and I have more of a national scope now, I 58 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: would still say that being the editor of my hometown 59 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: paper and the first woman is really the privilege of 60 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: my life. I mean, my professional life. I will call 61 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: my children the privilege of my good but but you know, 62 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: I mean it was a big newsroom. There were there 63 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: were two undred people in it. We covered an eight 64 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: county area. We really did the job for people, um 65 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: in all of western New York and and and it 66 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: was an exciting place to be. I was a politics 67 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: reporter there, a government reporter, education reporter, and it was, 68 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, a tremendous experience. And then it's been you know, 69 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,799 Speaker 1: it's been extremely difficult and painful to watch the withering 70 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: of local news across the country, including at the Buffalo News. 71 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: Although I have to say I just spent a big 72 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: chunk of the summer in the Buffalo area at a 73 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: cottage on Lake Erie, and I get the print edition 74 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: of the paper every day, and every day I was like, Wow, 75 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: this is still extremely informative and important and well done. 76 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: So um, you know, it's kind of a split story. 77 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: The ghosting the news thing is about places that really 78 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: don't even have that anymore, and they've turned into so 79 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: called news deserts. Why do you think people do trust 80 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: local news more than national news. I think I know 81 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: the answer to it, but I'd like to hear your explanation. Yeah, 82 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: it's a varied you know, it's It's got a few 83 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: different aspects to it, but one of them is that, 84 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: you know, these are people who live in your community. 85 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: You could run into a reporter whom maybe his or 86 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: her child is in school with your child. You might 87 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: know them from something that's personal and obituary of a relative. 88 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's all very dog in in the community. 89 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: And so therefore, when they tell you this is what's happening, 90 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: you sort of have a personal connection to it, or 91 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: even if it's not a completely personal connection, you've got 92 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: that sense of place. And I think that that goes 93 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: a long way where the national media seems like, oh, 94 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of people feel like 95 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: these are elites. That are they all live in New 96 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,679 Speaker 1: York and Washington and and you know, California. They don't 97 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: have anything to do with me and my life. Well, 98 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: it's kind of true. It is kind of true. I mean, 99 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: there's a very strong presence um in national news in 100 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: those in those places, and so and you know, I 101 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: think we saw that very very clearly in twos sixteen, 102 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: when the national press was so out of touch with 103 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: the rest of the country and was like completely surprised 104 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: that Trump was elected. The tentacles of local news really 105 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: reach out into the community and perhaps some unexpected ways, 106 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: so people not only learn about things, but it has uh, 107 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: some some unintended positive consequences, doesn't it. Yes, And maybe 108 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: they're intended. Actually well they I mean I think it 109 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: is intended. It has a way, just as you say, 110 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: of sort of knitting the community together. And so that 111 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: could be a concert review, it could be a restaurant review, 112 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: it could be a feature story on an interesting person. 113 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: It doesn't all have to be heavy duty watchdog journalism, 114 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: although that's extremely important, but it's it's a lot of 115 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: different things. And honestly, I have to say that one 116 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: of the real appointments, um, that's happened at my old 117 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: paper in Buffalo is that I kind of founded, um, 118 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: this section called Life and Arts, and it was the 119 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: place where the you know, the reviews were and the 120 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: feature stories and the culture coverage. And that section doesn't 121 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: appear in the daily paper anymore, and I really miss it. 122 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: You know, there's still sports, of course, there's still sports coverage, 123 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: right but um, and there's still you know, political coverage 124 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: and all of that local coverage, but that piece of 125 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: it is diminished, and that that hurts, and I think 126 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: that's one of the ways that you're talking about that 127 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: we you know, sort of intended or unintended. It's like, 128 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: oh did you see this thing? Did you? Are you 129 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: going to this show? You know, it's it's more casual, 130 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: it's more informal, and it's more the sort of the 131 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: fabric of life. There's that. Then there are other things 132 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: that go along with local news participation and elections and 133 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: also the instigative reporting you were talking about or the 134 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: political coverage that you did as a cub reporter. Um, 135 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: that actually keeps local officials in check. I mean, there's 136 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: a real reason for that. Talk about those two things, 137 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: and the role of local newsplays in both of those. So, 138 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, just having some reporter at a meeting, whether 139 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: it's the city council or the you know, town board 140 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: or a school board, whatever, it is, just having that 141 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: reporter there, you know, I think it keeps public officials 142 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: on their toes. It's sort of a way of bearing witness. 143 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: Oh somebody's watching, you know. Um. I remember talking to 144 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: the publisher of the Youngstown Vindicator, which very sadly went 145 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: out of business two summers ago, and he said that 146 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: you know, I mean just really resonated with me. He said, 147 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: when the paper was in its heyday, they were able 148 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: to send a reporter or stringer, meaning a freelance reporter 149 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: to every meeting in a three county area. And he 150 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: said they knew, meaning the public officials, they knew that 151 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: and they behaved. And you know, when that goes away, 152 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: when you don't have that sort of person there, who's 153 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: who's watching? Then I think people, you know, there's a 154 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: human nature. It's like maybe things could be snuck through 155 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: in some way. Well there's no watchdog, mean dog. I mean, 156 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: it's as simple as that, there's nobody there to watch. 157 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: And while there are, you know, I don't think this 158 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: is a black and white situation because even in places 159 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: where the local paper may have gone away, or you know, 160 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: maybe it's a weekly that's closed, you know, sometimes there's 161 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: a radio station or a startup digital um news organization 162 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: that's still doing the job. It's not all about newspapers, 163 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: and I think we need to always remember that. But 164 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: having said that, newspapers are a huge and really really 165 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: important piece of the puzzle. What was the first sign 166 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: when you were at the Buffalo News that, uh, it 167 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: was a declining, not in expanding industry. Right. Well, you know, 168 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: I was very focused when I first came in as editor, 169 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: and that was an h two thousand that I wanted 170 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: to increase the staff. So we had had a two 171 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: member news room staff for a long time, and I 172 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: wanted to be bigger. I wanted to add people, add 173 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: reporters and so on. And I got made a little 174 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: bit of progress with the being encounters, and then things 175 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: started to change. Circulation, you know, started to go down. Um, 176 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: the rise of the Internet really started to you know, 177 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: Craigslist came along and really knocked the um, you know, 178 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: the legs out from underclassified advertising, which was such a 179 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: money maker. And you know, I started to come under 180 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 1: pressure to reduce the staff instead of to grow the staff. 181 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: And that was you know, that was really the sign 182 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: that you know, things were not going well and there 183 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: and then it just you know, then it got to 184 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: be two thousand eight and we were in this great recession. Um, 185 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: the whole country was hurting. And then print advertising, which 186 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: was the lifeblood of my paper and a lot of 187 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: papers really really started to go away. And then we 188 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: had to make even more dire cuts, you know, started 189 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 1: to do buyouts. We never did layoffs when I was there, 190 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: which I was very proud of. I had hired all 191 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: these people and I felt like they were family members. 192 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: But you know, we didn't do layoups, but we did 193 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: do voluntary buyouts, and we lost a lot of staff 194 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: members that way. So all this institutional memory stuff people 195 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: knew about the community and what had happened, it was 196 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: all walking out the door, and it was really tough 197 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: to see. Well, let's talk about some of the the 198 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: other factors that have led to the disintegration, not only 199 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: of local newspapers, but also what about radio and television. 200 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I mean, TV has managed to um hold 201 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: onto its revenue and its business model much better local TV, 202 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: much better than local newspapers UM. And that you know, 203 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: some of that has to do with the kind of 204 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: advertising it has, and some of it has to do 205 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,479 Speaker 1: with transmission fees and sort of the nitty gritty of 206 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: of how TV gets its money. UM. That isn't as 207 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: susceptible as newspapers to this decline. UM And in some cases, 208 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I've been really impressed when I've been at 209 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: investigative and reporters editors conferences around the country that there 210 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: are a ton of local TV people there who are 211 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: really interested in investigative reporting, and maybe it's more of 212 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: a day turn where they do a piece that has 213 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: an investigative aspect to it or an enterprise aspect to it. 214 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: But it's, you know, it's that's part of how we're 215 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: going to fill the gap. And then radio, you know, 216 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: it's you know, radio is tough to say. Public radio, 217 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: I think is a part of the puzzle. And um, 218 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: it's it's it has some pretty good ambitions for for 219 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: trying to fill that gap. We'll be right back. What 220 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: about participation in elections? Talk about how that is so 221 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: closely aligned with the vibrant local news ecosystem. Right, Well, 222 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: there's you know, there's a strong connection between a vibrant 223 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: local news situation in a community and good political participation. 224 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: And part of it is do you vote? Are you 225 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: active in your community in some way? Um? Do you 226 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: ever cross party lines when you vote? Or are you 227 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: you know, when local news goes away, people tend to 228 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: go more into their sort of echo chambers, more into 229 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: their tribes, and you know, we've become very very tribal. 230 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: We're either this or that, and so people don't cross 231 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: the party lines as much as they did because they're 232 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: getting their information in many cases through you know, social 233 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: media and through a very sort of self um, you know, 234 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: self sustaining idea. You know, you hear the same ideas 235 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: over and over from people who are telling you what 236 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: you want to hear, and you're not sharing this common 237 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: basis of reality. So definitely political engagement, political participation, and 238 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: that ability to sort of evaluate a candidate on his 239 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: or her qualities rather than simply his or her party. 240 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: That really changes when local news goes away. This vacuum 241 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: that's created by the dearth of local news is one 242 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: of the what you're talking about Facebook getting affirmation not 243 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: information algorithms serving you up very similar you know pieces 244 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: of information um with that vacuum. I mean, don't you 245 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: think that's essentially led to a lot of the distrust 246 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: that you were describing at the beginning of our conversation. Yes, 247 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: it's no, there's no question that it's part of the 248 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: sort of whole disinformation misinformation um, you know, difficulty. I 249 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: would say, even tragedy that we're experiencing that you know, 250 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: people are getting their news from not very credible sources. 251 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: They you know, it's sort of like what it boils 252 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: down to what your neighbors tell you. And your neighbors 253 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: may know what they're talking about or may not, but 254 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: what they aren't doing is filing freedom of information requests 255 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: vetting the information. Um. You know, when a newspaper or 256 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: a public radio station or whatever it may be, puts 257 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: a story out there, it had better be right. And 258 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: if it's not right, they have to correct it, and 259 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: they have to you know, own up to the fact 260 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: that it's not right, or they're going to really get hammered. Um. 261 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: That doesn't happen on social media. If it's wrong, maybe 262 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: you delete it, maybe you let it just spin out 263 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: there forever. I mean again, during the election, the the 264 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: amount of you know, some people call want to call 265 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: it fake news. I think that term has been kind 266 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: of stolen in a way. Well, I think it's a 267 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: terrible term. I try to avoid it to cost because 268 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: I think it began to it started to be used 269 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: by a president who considered anything critical of him to 270 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: be fake exactly. And I don't use it for that 271 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: reason too. But let's call it false news. So you know, 272 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: for example, a story that uh, you know, the Pope 273 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: had endorsed Donald Trump. I mean that story was very 274 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: very widely circulated. It was viral, and Um, once something 275 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: is out, it's very very hard to pull it back. 276 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: It just doesn't work that way. What do they say, 277 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: a lie makes it around the world while the truth 278 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: hasn't even tied at shoelaces something like that? Exactly right. 279 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: I mean it's and you know, a correct shan doesn't 280 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: corrections don't even happen. In fact, some of that false 281 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: news is done on purpose. I mean a lot of 282 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: it is, so no one has any interest in correcting 283 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: it or making it right. Let's, um talk about just 284 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: sort of other reasons for the decline real quickly before 285 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: we get to solutions. Um. You talked about the ad model, 286 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: the ad revenue kind of cratering with the advent of 287 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: digital etcetera, etcetera in Craig's list. Um, but also what 288 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: about ownership. I mean, whether it's Sinclair, which is a 289 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: whole could be a whole documentary, or these private equity 290 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: firms you know, going for these newspapers and demanding profits. Um. 291 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: It seems the public service side of what a newspaper 292 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: is all about has been forgotten. In many of these markets, right. 293 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: I mean, there was a time when newspapers were owned 294 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: by local families and that what you know, didn't mean 295 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: that the local emilias were always great owners, but they 296 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: did have a stake in the community. Now, you know, 297 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: most newspapers are owned by big chains, and some of 298 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: the big chains are actually essentially hedge funds or private 299 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: equity firms, and they have very little interest, if any, 300 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: in doing good journalism or even doing valid journalism. They 301 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: are interested in sort of harvesting the last profits that 302 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: can be made from these companies, these newspaper companies, which 303 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: by the way, are still making money. You know, um, 304 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: it's not as if they're losing money, so there's profit 305 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: to be made. They're going to cut the staff, um, 306 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: take advantage of the fact that they're still trust in 307 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: these places and that people are still subscribing and advertising, 308 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: and you know, sort of I mean, people call them 309 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: vulture capitalists because they're sort of circling these properties like 310 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: vultures and taking advantage of the last you know, the 311 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: last bits of value that are there. And a lot 312 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: of journalists are saying, no, we're not going to do that. Right, 313 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: there have been big protests and there have been, but 314 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, your ownership as your ownership, and 315 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: now most recently the Chicago Tribune, the Baltimore Sun, the 316 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: Orlando Sentinel, the Hartford Current, we're all bought by essentially 317 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: by Alden Global, which is essentially a hedge fund. And 318 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: it's really sad because these are storied newspapers that have 319 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: done great work. One Pulitzer Prises employed you know, fabulous 320 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: journalists and you know they're still doing the job today, 321 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: but you know, with fewer people, and we don't know 322 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: what's coming, but we have a pretty good idea what's 323 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: coming because of what what's happened in other markets when 324 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: Alden has swooped in. So I think it would be 325 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: good for people to just check into who owns their 326 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: TV station that they're listening to and is there an alternative? 327 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: And you know, is that or an ulterior motive? Right exactly? 328 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: You use a stat from from Pew, from the Pew 329 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: Research Center that shows people pulled actually think local news 330 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: is doing well and that this was in two thousand nineteen. 331 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: But they're not only in the dark in terms of 332 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: the ownership, but they don't even know that local news 333 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: is in trouble right exactly, Well, why are they so? 334 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 1: Why are they so unaware? You think? I mean, I 335 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: think it's because a local newspapers for such a long 336 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: time were money making machines, and I think people got 337 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: used to that idea that oh, well, you know, the 338 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: paper's fine, it's making money. It's they're making money hand 339 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: over fist, and they just sort of haven't adjusted to 340 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: the new reality. And that was one of the reasons 341 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: that I really wanted to write my book Posting the 342 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: news was to sort of sound the alarm. Um. You know, 343 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,239 Speaker 1: obviously it's not everybody read it or knows about it, 344 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: but I hope it made a little bit of difference 345 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: in raising people's consciousness. Well what is it? What are 346 00:20:55,359 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: the solutions? Margaret? Um, I know that that that one 347 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: of the things you're going to be talking about in 348 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: your book and you've been thinking about because, let's face it, 349 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: ghosteeing the news was kind of a Debbie downer Margaret, 350 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: and there, Um, I guess the question is a are 351 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: their solutions and be what do you think are the most, um, 352 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: potentially sound ones. Yeah, well, I mean there's not one answer, um, 353 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: but there's different pieces that have to happen. One of 354 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: them is I think that education in the schools would really, 355 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: um could really benefit us as a country if they 356 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: would start to teach a little bit of news literacy, 357 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: media literacy in the classroom, So teaching kids, you know, 358 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: I think as young as ten or eleven or twelve 359 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: year old kids, you know how to tell a false 360 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: story from a true one, and how to read with 361 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: some sort of you know, critical reasoning, UM, and you 362 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: know how to know what you're taking in is good 363 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: or bad, and you know kind of a compare and contrast. 364 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: I think really basic information about that. It wouldn't have 365 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: to be a full year course. It could be part 366 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: of a social studies or something like that, or civics. 367 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: So I think that's a piece of it. And I 368 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: think that there is now an effort, you know, there's 369 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: a bipartisan effort in Congress to try to get some 370 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: indirect help, not a handout, but some tax credits the 371 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: Local Journalism Sustainability Act. Yes, the Local Journalism Sustainability Act. 372 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: They need a good editor when they when it comes 373 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: to with that title, Zippy your name, let's um. But 374 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: at any rate, it would give tax credits of various 375 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: kinds to try to help local journalism stay viable. And 376 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: I think it's it's pretty I think it's pretty good. 377 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: I've been really troubled about the idea of sort of 378 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: government getting involved in this because I don't really want 379 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: government officials messing with journalism, you know, journalism right be independent. 380 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: But I think we're at a point now where we 381 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: need to look at things that maybe didn't seem like 382 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: a good idea before, and just to build some guardrails 383 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: into it so that it can be done, you know, 384 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: intelligently and safely and independently and independently. That's hugely important. 385 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: There's also Report for America. Stephen Waldman is the founder. 386 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: This seems like such a cool idea, is it? Is 387 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: it gaining traction? And are a lot of people doing it? 388 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: Tell us explain to our listeners what that's all about. Sure, 389 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: So it's a little bit like the Peace Corps UM 390 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: in that it takes young people. I guess the Peace 391 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: Corps isn't all young people, but usually Report for America UM. 392 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: It lets young people take a year and it funds 393 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: them to go into a community that has already has 394 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: some local news, but it puts them in an existing 395 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: news room so that they can sort of help and 396 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: and you know, broaden and sort of deepen their coverage. 397 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: And yeah, it's grown a lot. It's only been around 398 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 1: for a couple of years, but now there are think 399 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: I think there are you know, at least a thousand 400 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: maybe more report for America. UM. I guess they call 401 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: them fellows who are in local newsrooms and you know, 402 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: doing a really good job. You know. I think that's 403 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: another piece of the puzzle. It's not going to solve 404 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: the whole thing obviously. Well, how worried are you about 405 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: training the next generation of journalists if there are fewer 406 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: and fewer places to work and you know a lot 407 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: of national places, some are growing, but some are shrinking. Yeah, 408 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's funny because I am somewhat worried about it. 409 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: But I also know a lot of young journalists. Um 410 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: some of them personally wants my nephew, wants my my 411 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: son's ex girlfriend, you know, people that And then some 412 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: are my own students who I've taught at different places, 413 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: and I'm always very very heartened by how good they are. Smart, um, 414 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: you know, dedicated to journalism and really wanting to do 415 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: the job. And um, so they give me a lot 416 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: of hope, and I think that we might be in 417 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: pretty better shape there than you might expect. There's another 418 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: one to watch named Carrie Monahan. I hear she's got 419 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: she's got a lot of t Yeah, what about this. 420 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: I sent you an article about this startup called six 421 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: am that's doing sort of hyperlocal newsletters. I think newsletters 422 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: are the new newspapers. Honestly, it seems it seemed pretty interesting. 423 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: I mean, uh, it's one to watch for sure. I'm 424 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: not sure how it'll play out. You know, there's been 425 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: a lot of efforts, Like there's something called Patch. Um 426 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: there's well Patch kind of didn't Patch not do well, Margaret, 427 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: I think that's what I mean. So sometimes these things 428 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: kind of crop up and they look super promising and 429 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: then they kind of fade away. So we'll have to 430 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: see if this one takes off. Yeah, but I think 431 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: it newsletters that model is so interesting. Since we're so 432 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: you know, tethered to our phones. You know, I missed 433 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: the days where my dad was, you know, at the 434 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: kitchen table eating as Wheatie's reading the Washington Post and 435 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: pointing out interesting articles or obituaries. Um, you know, I 436 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: miss those days, but I think the good news and 437 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 1: I'm on this Aspen Commission for Disinformation as you know, 438 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: or to tackle disinformation. And you know, one thing that's 439 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: been very clear to me with the very diverse group 440 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: of people, the good old days weren't the good old 441 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: days for everybody. And now with a new sort of 442 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: landscape in journalism, it's become much more inclusive and the 443 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: voices are much more diverse. So that's that's a real positive, 444 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: even though the actual platforms are shrinking, You're right, though 445 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: the voices are expanding. I think that's important to keep 446 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: in mind that a lot of times the coverage that 447 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: we got in these places that we wanted, you know, 448 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: Revere now and say how great they were, it was covering, 449 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, it was covering the white and the more 450 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: affluent and the more establishment parts of their communities. So 451 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: it is great to have a more diverse um ecosystem. 452 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: That's hugely important coming up. A new generation of journalists 453 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: committed to bringing local news back. Local news maybe in 454 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: a dire state, but it's far from dead. Organizations like 455 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: Report for America, which Margaret and I touched on, place 456 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: talented emerging reporters into local newsrooms all across the country 457 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: for up to two years. These core members report for 458 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: newspapers and digital outlets, radio and TV stations. Sometimes they're 459 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: jumping into news deserts, towns or counties that no longer 460 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: have anyone covering the state of the local government, economy, 461 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: or social sphere. Other times, these intrepid reporters are going 462 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: to larger news markets but covering historically underserved issues and communities. 463 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 1: This work has never been so necessary and important, so 464 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to end this episode by hearing from some 465 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: of those who are reinvigorating the local news industry. My 466 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: name is Cassidy Arena. I report with Iowa Public Radio 467 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: and I focus on Latino Spanish speaking in immigrant communities 468 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: in the state of Iowa. My name is Most Cherry, 469 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: and reporting from Florida, covered the Haitian American community for 470 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: the Haitian Time. My name is Charlie McGee. I am 471 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: the sole reporter in Barstow, California, writing for the victor 472 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: Ville Daily Press. My name is Ellen Chung. I am 473 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: originally from China and right now I'm a report for 474 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: America Works member covering immigration, but the Columbus is Pastuna, Ohio. 475 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: What I'm doing is sort of filling in a gap, 476 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: which is, you know, basically this whole northern area of 477 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: the High Desert, you know, giving them a focused sort 478 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: of reporter for the first time in about four or 479 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: five years. People kind of hear about the word news desert, 480 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: and it's always referred to in this sense of geographic location. 481 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: There's a hole there within the definition of news desert. 482 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: It's not just based on geographic location. It's based on 483 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: the populations in the communities in a place. So even 484 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: though Iowa say, you know, has this big city newspaper, 485 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: are they really focusing on those undercovered communities, those Spanish 486 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: speaking communities, the African refugees, are they really focusing on 487 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: them too? My last thing I bought it, I saw them. 488 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: Seeker just came to a new country on a different 489 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: way from most people. I mean, coming from Brazil to 490 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: the Mexican border by walking public transportation. As Jenny was 491 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: horrible when he came here. There's a lot of hope 492 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: for him that he's not he's not alone because the 493 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: community is helping him. He goes back to two logan news. Uh, 494 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: if people are not really getting deep into Florida. They're 495 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: not really gonna tell those stories right now. I'm trying 496 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: to see a larger investigation into buildings that mainly house 497 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: immigrants and refugees to see, you know, on a larger scale, 498 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: how many people are forced to live in apartment complexes 499 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: with lawsuits, code violations and the deal with you know, 500 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: racist lawlords and managers. So I'm really excited to see 501 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: that story. I do the watchdog reporting stuff. That's my 502 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: just personally. I love that kind of you know, digging 503 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: in the weeds and finding you know, looking at numbers. 504 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: But it's also been great just to give you know, 505 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: do profiles of like a local barber who's owned a 506 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: barbershop for twenty years, right and put pictures of him 507 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: with his dad right when he was you know, getting 508 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: his barber's license with the big mullet in the nineties, 509 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: and you know those kind localize just personality feature stories, 510 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, give people sort of reasons to be proud 511 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: of their community or just people around them. Yeah. I 512 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: just finished the story recently about two soccer clubs, one 513 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: focused on African refugees and another focus on Latino children. 514 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: Um making sure that these kids still have access to 515 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: a competitive youth sport that will get them those opportunities 516 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: later in life, such as college scholarships things like that. 517 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: So it was just an example of here's what journalism 518 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: can do. Also is showing Iowa what these communities are 519 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,719 Speaker 1: doing really well and where they really shine. You know, 520 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: what I found here in Columbus is that we haven't 521 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: had that much coverage of the immigrant communities, and I 522 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: think that's true for minority communities in general. So when 523 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: I talked to residents and out of the case in 524 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: a few they're always really appreciative of the fact that 525 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: we're covering their stories at all, which really shows how 526 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: there's a lack of coverage of these marginalized communities right now. Yeah, 527 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: I think it's very important to tell people about what's 528 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: going on in their community. You could, I don't want 529 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: to say, sit a person's life where you could make 530 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: their life much better. For example, does there's a lot 531 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: of resources that the community doesn't know about. I'm mentioned 532 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: to a slum seekers before. There's a lot of resources 533 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: for them that they're not don't know about it, someone 534 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: is not writing about it. The majority of what people 535 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: say when they see that I'm here in doing this 536 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: work and reporting on them, and there are people that 537 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,719 Speaker 1: they care about. Most of the time, they're shocked that 538 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: somebody is actually here. And I asked them, who did 539 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: you tell your stories too before this, and they say, nobody. 540 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: We didn't really talk to anybody about our stories before 541 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: you came. So it's an incredibly humbling experience to have 542 00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: that responsibility. But also you when you have that reaction, 543 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: you see how just how necessary that experience is. I 544 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: mean one of the most rewarding parts of the job. 545 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: I actually the most rewarding is I've gotten a lot 546 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: of you know, emails from just people who live in 547 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: the community, who live in Barstow or or around the 548 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: area in another part of the High Desert, who are 549 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 1: just you know, like thank you for Like I'm so 550 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: happy that we have a reporter just focusing on us now. 551 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: I'm so happy I learned about this. Local journalism really 552 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: lets you have that rapport and building that that trust 553 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: in that they can trust you with their stories, but 554 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: also I can trust them that they will keep me accountable. 555 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: I'll never see what I'm doing as a as a job, 556 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: because that's sodom seeka. I wrote about I don't see 557 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: him as a as someone I interviewed. I see him 558 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: as a as a friend. So I don't really see 559 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: see it as a job. And I don't want to 560 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: say local news is like it's like the first there 561 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: for you to again do something higher. I don't want 562 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: to see it like that, because if we leave, then 563 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: who's gonna talk to that I saw them see there? 564 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: You know, if we don't have reporters who are living 565 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: in these communities, meeting people, producing work that reflects the 566 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: community itself, then inevitably people are gonna get left behind. 567 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: And you know, I think a lot of people are 568 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: very polarized in their views on the national news, and 569 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: they really want a local voice that's just you know, 570 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: someone who they can trust, who they you know, know, 571 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: is living in the same community as them, eating the 572 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: same you know, restaurants as them, and going to the 573 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: same city council meetings, are looking at the same Facebook 574 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: groups they're looking at, you know, like all that stuff. 575 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: I think makes people more connected as a community, more informed, 576 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: and really I think more you know, in control of 577 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: their own lives. I mean, I think that's just as 578 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: important a part of democracy is the ability to contribute 579 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: to your local government. YEA, even though new local nuisance 580 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: are struggling, we shouldn't just try to cut to what 581 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: people want to read. We should also make sure to 582 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: tell stories that are important to make sure that local 583 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: residents are where all these larger, harder issues. And I 584 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: think that's a responsibility of local reporters in Columbus and 585 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: everywhere else. We're really here to give the power back 586 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: to people. It's again, it's going to sound cliche to 587 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: say that, you know, we're the fourth branch of democracy, 588 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: but we really are, and you can see that when 589 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: you're down at this local level. It's opened up the 590 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: door for me to realize that journalism as a public 591 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: service is really teaching people about the power that they have, 592 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: but also teaching people to utilize that power in the 593 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: way to really make a difference. The value of local news, 594 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: the value of getting to know people in the locality 595 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: that you are covering, and the ability to sort of 596 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: speak to truth to power at local levels from the 597 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: perspective people who otherwise can't is really important. Think it's 598 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: really important part of the American experiment, and we have 599 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 1: to keep it alive. That was Charlie McGee, Cassidy, Arena 600 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: Ellen Chung and As Cherry from Report for America. Thanks everybody, 601 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: and also a big thank you to my guest Margaret Sullivan. 602 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: Her book is called Ghosting the News, Local Journalism and 603 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: the Crisis of American Democracy. And by the way, she's 604 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: working on her own memoir, so stay tuned for that 605 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 1: next week on Next Question is book released week. Katie 606 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 1: is a pack rat and she has basically her own 607 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: archive of sorts in her basements. I take you behind 608 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: the making of my memoir and so much more. That's 609 00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: next Thursday on Next Question. Next Question with Katie Kurik 610 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Media and Katie Kuric Media. 611 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: The executive producers Army Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The 612 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, 613 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by 614 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to 615 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter wake Up Call, go 616 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: to Katie Currek dot com. You can also find me 617 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: at Katie Currik on Instagram and all my social media channels. 618 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I 619 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 620 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.