WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Murder of Martha Moxley 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.640 Thinking Sideways is not supported by playing competitive solitaire. Instead, 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.680 it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon. 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:10.799 Visit patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways to learn more 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:21.400 and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't just I'm you never 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:32.600 know stories of things we simply don't know the answer too. Well. Hi, there, 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:36.480 welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.960 as always by Devon and Steve, and we're gonna guess 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.400 what We're gonna talk about cooking, not really okay, of course, 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.040 a mystery, another groovy mystery. Okay. Our mystery began on 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:56.400 Halloween Day. Yeah, it's forty some years um, but actually 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:58.080 there's still a little movement on this one, believe it 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:02.080 or not. Still stuff going on there is. Yeah. First 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.320 of all, I want to thank Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.319 Who suggested this mystery to us. Laughing right now, but 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.880 really really genuinely. Yeah. He just published a new book 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.680 and uh, and his publishers sent us a copy. And 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:16.800 I love it when people give us free stuff, which 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.520 it's cool. The book is called Framed Again by Robert F. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:21.880 Kennedy Jr. And it's a really good roundup of the 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.640 story and all the suspects. And this case has actually 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.119 received a lot of national attention for a long time. 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:30.240 Lots of books have been written about it, not just 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.360 arf Kase. And also there's another book that was written 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:35.959 in the nineties by Mark Furman. And he may have 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.360 heard of Furman. He was the LPD homicide detective who 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.640 was assigned to the O. J. Simpson murder. Yeah, you 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.160 remember that guy. He did a really good job with. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:49.080 I didn't work out so well. And so the murder 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:55.920 of O. J. Simpson's wife and her boyfriend remains unsolved. 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.320 Um Ferman's book, it's got some good information in it, 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:01.760 though I don't really agree with all of his conclusions. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.160 He did a lot of reconstruction of the crame scene. 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.040 He did. He did. He's got some drawings in there 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.840 and stuff and and so. And he's a professional, obviously, 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:10.920 he knows how to read his crime scenes better than 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:13.440 the Grantwich p D. By the way, our murder takes 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.560 place in Granwich, Connecticut. So thanks to rfk and thanks 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.600 to Ferman for suggesting this mystery to us. Yeah, well 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.840 Furman didn't, yeah, I said, I sent an email to 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:25.440 his publisher to see if he be willing to talk 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.959 to me. In surprise, I never heard back. Yeah. Yeah, 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:34.519 Well back to our mystery. Halloween October thirty first, about 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.200 noon on that day, the body of a fifteen year 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.760 old girl named Martha Moxley was found under a tree 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:43.320 in her family's yard in Granwich, Connecticut. She had been 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.320 bludgeoned on the head with the golf club, and the 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.120 club then broke into several pieces, which was either either 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:52.520 from the force of the blows to her head or 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.800 maybe from the deliberate action of maybe the killer actually 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.800 broke it deliberately. It's hard to say, but it wasn't. 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.880 It was in basic four pieces before you go on. 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.440 Probably should warn people if there's munchkins around. Oh yeah, 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.640 pause from here on forward. Yeah, it's kind of a brutal. Yes, 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:10.400 yeah it is. I know. I was just thinking, how 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.080 maybe we should have just said that earlier. I realized this, 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.240 I know what's coming. Yeah, okay, so yeah, So it's 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:18.400 three pieces of the club were found laying in the 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.560 grass in the Boxley yard. That was the head, you know, 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:22.359 that the part that you actually whacked the ball with, 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.519 and then two pieces of shafts stainless steel shaft. And 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.480 then the fourth piece was a piece of stainless steel 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:30.799 shaft with the handle attached to it. You know, it's 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:32.040 the part that you grip with your hands when you 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.639 swing the golf club, the rubber grippy bit. Yeah, that 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:36.720 that part. That part was used to stab her in 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.720 the next several times. And the last one went all 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:41.800 the way through and it went through her windpipe. And 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:44.200 it is believed that even if she survived all the blows, 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:47.480 she would have died anyway from drowning in her own blood. Yeah. Yeah, 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.760 and uh, the killer at that point. Uh, And I'm 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.480 getting out of hand here. It's like there was one 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.200 blow delivered in the driveway. If you look at you 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.640 look at an aerial of the house, it's the house 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.840 where it took places at thirty Walsh Lane and Grantwich, Connecticut. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:03.920 If you go to Google you can get a look 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:05.760 at an area of it. But they've changed up the 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:07.920 driveway a little bit. It used to be east to 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:09.800 run on the west side of the house north to 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.600 Walsh Lane, and then a little semi circular piece breaks 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:15.760 off and branches out and goes also to Walsh Lane. 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:17.920 So you have a sort of semi circular driveway there. 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.040 So that Patrick grass in the middle is where the 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:22.480 initial attack appeared to have taken place. In the middle 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.360 basically a round about, yeah, kind of a roundabout thing. Uh. 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.400 And then apparently it's a half circle. Yeah, it's like 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.000 a quarter circle. Actually, when you think about it, it's 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.560 not a round about, a quarter about. It's like a 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.480 it's like a U shaped driveway, yeah, except it's not 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.799 quite you shaped. It's like this like this right. Yeah, 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:47.000 you can't see what I did, but when when when 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:51.240 the murder happened, not anymore, it's totally it's a total 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:55.039 horseshoe shape now. Yeah, and I guess it's probably worth 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.240 noting that this is a gated community, so there's no 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.080 street view. You have to just look at who the 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:05.080 earth right now. I know that's so frustrating that anyway, 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:09.000 So the attack happens on the quarter circle, the initial attack. Yeah. 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.839 After that point, the killer dragged Martha south Based down, 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:13.720 grabbed her by the feet, basically a drugg her face 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:16.880 down across the driveway, and we know this because there 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.200 were lots of gouges in her face, took her to 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.479 a place over by a Japanese maple todjest to the 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.240 south of the driveway and resumed beating and stabbing her. 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.440 This was the main attack took place, because there was 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.080 a major amount of blow that was found there. And 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.440 then uh, and then last of all, you drugged her 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.119 don like eighty feet south to a big pine tree 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:37.919 and left the body under the pine tree. It's in 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.719 Mark Ferman's book. He says that the wounds were such 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:42.720 that they would have would have been ouzing rather than 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.880 gushing blood, so he believes the killer actually left her 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.120 laying next to the Japanese maple for about half an 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.560 hour and then came back and administered the kuda gras 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.839 with the handle and then dragged her away. For me, 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:00.600 that vastly changes the total zone of this thing, right, 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.800 you know, because it's one thing to say, Okay, yeah, 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:09.520 somebody went a little crazy statement pretty quando crazy, and 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.479 you know, beat this girl a lot, and you know, 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.719 stabbed her and killed her and then dragged her body 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:19.360 to hide her, versus somebody beat this girl, left her 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.480 and then came back and continued to do some like 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.599 took a union break in the middle. Yeah, but but 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.160 of course I could I could be wrong about that too. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.280 He might have actually done all and she did all 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.240 the bleeding there, and then he came back later decided 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.520 to move the body, but didn't actually attack her anymore. 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:41.000 So we don't really know, yea. And the broken bits 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.880 of golf club where were they next to her body? 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.479 So they were moved as well? No, no, we were 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.320 with the initial attacks. There were two of them were 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.320 with the initial attacks side the circle in the driveway, 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:53.520 and then one of them was fairly close to her body. 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:55.120 It was a piece of shaft. And then the fourth 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:58.479 one was the handle itself was sticking out of her neck. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:01.159 Remember that to you, by the way, I looking at 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.800 the golf club handle, because that becomes an important little 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.240 clue later on. Yeah, when much of this body was found, 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.800 her jeans have been pulled down and her panties have 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.320 been rolled down. She was faced down. There were two 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.680 smears of blood on her in her thighs, and there 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.000 was no evidence of rape, by the way, or sexual 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.600 assault of any kind, right really, Yeah, except for except 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.520 for the blood smears on our thighs, which we probably 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.240 put there by the murderer, you know, doing something, But 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.160 he didn't actually complete any act or anything like that. 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.480 I thought I had read that in the Corners report 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.640 there was no signs of any kind of assault or 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.960 trauma in her genital region. Yeah, it was that she 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.320 was she had not been, so either there was something 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:45.960 like totally consensual that had happened, or that's I don't 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.920 I don't think about anything sexual activity. That there was 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:55.680 some sexual activity earlier in the evening, but it wasn't earlier. Yeah, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.600 but it wasn't full intercourse. And I think that that's 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.200 that's what it's probably what you're why it's it's coming 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.680 up as Joseph, there's no assault that way, there's no 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.120 evidence of it, right, Yeah, I want to clarify that 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.320 as well. But yeah, that's but the fact that her 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.240 panties were rolled down and the fact that they found 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.840 blood spatter on the inside of the panties told the 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.840 police and the medical examiner types that she had probably 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.600 been attacked by somebody that she knew, in fact, not 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:21.560 just not just somebody that she knew, was somebody that 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.120 she'd be willing to roll her panties down for. So wait, 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.320 I don't understand how the blood on the inside of 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.880 the panties leads to that that understanding, Well, because have 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.040 you beaten there with their pants up and everything, the 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.760 blood would have gone all over her pants outside and 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.400 the outside of her pants. Not The point is her 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:44.840 pants were down, and then she was treated as a pincushion. Yeah, okay, 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.640 that's that's the distinction. I wasn't quite gidding. And I 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.079 think the further distinction on that is that it looked 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.559 like she had done it, not that they had been 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:54.760 like torn off her, so her pants weren't pulled double 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:56.760 or anything crazy like I got it. I got it. Yeah, 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:59.960 So at this point I described that to described the murder. 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.040 Let me tell about I'll tell you guys all about 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.679 our cast of characters. It's a big one. Yeah, there's 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:06.880 a lot of people involved in this story, and so 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:08.439 I'm going to try to keep this to a manageable 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.040 number of people. First of all, Martha's family, the Moxley's, 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.200 they've been living in bell Haven. But then I mentioned 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:16.080 this is in bell Haven, Connecticut. Bell Haven is a 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.720 like a neighborhood within Greenwich, Connecticut, and it's like the 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.600 richest neighborhood in Greenwich, which is also, by the way, 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.920 a fairly wealthy city. Itself. It's so it's posh. The 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.240 aerial pictures of this is kind of one of those 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:30.040 things where you look at it and you're like, how 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:35.800 one yard is that a country club? Do people live there? 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:40.959 I don't have that many pools tennis court and three pools? Okay, 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:43.440 oh yeah, Well, like one of the one of the 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.400 families here, this SkELL family, they have this huge tract 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.000 of land for an area where I'm sure land is 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.280 incredibly expensive. They have like a tennis court and a 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:55.280 chipping tea with two golf golf holes in and everything, 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:57.720 and in a swimming pool and it's just just this 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.240 big area, this meadow to wander around in and huge 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.160 house and yeah, it must be nice. Yeah. So basically 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.200 this is the kind of neighborhood where they wouldn't let 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:09.360 you buy a house. They would specifically, but it's also 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.439 the kind of neighborhood where like, really horrible murders don't happen, 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.760 not very often. Now. Yeah, Maxes had been there about 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.680 a year and a half. Moxyes were David and Dorothy. 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.840 That's mom and dad. They had two kids, John and Martha. 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.280 At the time of the murder, John was seventeen and Martha, 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:27.880 his little sister was fifteen. Across the street to the 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.760 north across Walsh Lane was a large piece of land 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.560 on whether Skagles again with a big, big house and 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.679 lots of other cool stuff on it. And Russians Sr. 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:41.480 Also known as Ruckie Um was a winner with seven kids. 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.320 He had six sons and one daughter. Yeah. Russo's kids 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:50.600 were Rushton Jr. A k A. Rush Julie, John, Tommy, Michael, David, 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:57.400 and Stephen USA. But the two characters out of all 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.800 the all the siblings to really remember, Tommy and Michael 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.040 middle boys, Yeah, because they were the They were the 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.800 ones who became the suspects. Tommy, of course was was 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:07.640 the major suspect and his murdered for years and then 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.960 in the late nineties, Mark Firman wrote his book Murdering Greenwich, 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.840 which pointed the finger at Michael. Michael Skea was eventually 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.120 convicted of Martha's murder in two thousand two and he 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.360 was sentenced to twenty years to life. Do you know 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.200 how how old those boys were? Uh, Michael at the 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:27.120 time was fifteen and Tommy was seventeen. Then Michael, by 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.280 the way, was a Ronto. He was like five five 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:33.600 ft two at the time, waited about twenty pounds. Actually 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:36.280 he actually grew up and became a big guy, but 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:38.840 at the time he was pretty small. Maybe he's small 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.040 to committed murder. I don't know, Well, I don't know 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.600 of fifteen year old girls, not exactly. I don't think 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.920 Martha was exactly hulking now she was. She was actually 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.560 about about as tall as Michael at the time. Michael 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:51.840 said late when many years later than that, if he 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:56.760 had attacked her, she would have kicked his ass. I'd 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.360 actually also mentioned one other major character in this story, 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.160 which is Ken Littleton. He was hired by Rush Senior 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:04.079 to look after the Sco kids and also to be 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.000 a living tutor to Tommy and Michael because their mother 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.600 had passed away. Yeah past Friday. There was not much 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:11.719 in the way parental supervision. She died about three years 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.720 because from cancer. So yeah, he was kind of like 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.360 living nanny basically, right. He cleaned, he took the kids out, 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.120 but he also tutor. Now they actually had other servants 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:22.880 that did the cookie and the cleaning, but he took 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:24.760 the kids out, He took them out, and he was 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.360 he was there to provide a little supervision and tutor 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.640 Tommy and Michael. I think the politically correct term is staff. 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:37.480 They had a lot of servants. Must be great house staff. Okay, 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:43.000 so Ken Ken's first day on the job was October Yeah, 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.400 when he moved into the scake house, and talk about 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:47.760 your bad timing. He's kind of like the maid in 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.720 the hinter Kai fact case. Remember that. Yeah, it shows 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:53.440 up the day of That turned him into a major 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.600 suspect for years, and police harassed him and tried to 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.160 try to get him on this for years, and they 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.840 did everything from his telephone and and cooking up sketchy 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.000 deals with his ex wife to try to get hurt, 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.520 get him to implicate himself and on. And I I 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.080 just feel like your first day on the job, really like, 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.160 who's going to go out and kill somebody the first 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.240 day on the job? The girl that lives literally across 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.440 the street on the first day of the job. Really 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.480 really like, I might not understand the impulse of um, 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.320 you know, serial killers or anything like that, but really 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:28.360 it's on the list of things not to do on 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.880 day one, just like getting drunk the night before your 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.760 your first day on the job, not something you do. 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:39.120 Dyeing your hair a crazy color or crazy cuts. Things 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.319 you don't do. Murdering the neighbor girl also also a thing. 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.720 Don't do it now, I know, I know. And there's 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.000 actually even though he was such a major, there's actually 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.959 no evidence that he ever even met Martha. Yeah, but yeah, 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:53.800 they hunted him down. But they did this with all 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.000 of their suspects. Oh yeah, they were asked a lot 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.480 of people. They went after everybody. They thought it could 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.400 be super hard and frankly they did some some kind 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:03.880 of sketchy things. The police did talk a little bit 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:08.160 more about that later. But anyway, Ken had his life 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.640 went really downhill after the murder, and there he had 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.000 a lot of drug drug and alcohol abuse and that 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.960 some mental illness and stuff. And it's hard to say, 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.160 you know, he had a promising future at that time, 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.600 but then that stuff might have happened anyway. He might 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:27.600 have known habits and the drug habits. And how old 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.200 was he when it happened. He was twenty foward. He 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.640 was teaching at Brunswick School, which is a very exclusive 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:35.640 private school in bell Haven or not. I don't think 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.760 it's in bell Haven, but it's not far away. And 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.120 where Tommy and Michael were both going to school. So 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:42.080 it's one of those places where the rich people senior 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.720 their kids to school. So Ken had a good future 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.520 ahead of them. Oh and one last thing you need 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:48.800 to know about the Skego family. They were related to 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:50.960 the Kennedy's as in you know John F. Kennedy and 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:55.240 Robert F. Kennedy and all that Russian ske Senior ruk 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.280 Ruckie the dad was the brother of Ethel Skeko who 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.840 married Robert F. Kennedy Senior. And you remembered him. He 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.320 was He was JFK's brother and he was assassinated in Yeah, 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:09.400 that's and so Tommy and Michael ske Are cousins of 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.880 RFK Jr. Which is why he wrote the book. And 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.640 obviously he doesn't believe Michael committed the merger. He's got 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.880 he's got a vested interest in having his family be 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:24.280 cleared of this murder. He's been good buddies with Michael 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:26.600 for many years and and uh and he but he 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:30.720 presents some some actual pretty compelling evidence and so but 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.520 we'll talk about that. And one of the most recent 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:37.120 twists in the case is in a Connecticut judge named 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:40.880 Thomas Bishop. Throughout Michael Skegle's conviction and ordered a new 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.800 trial based on the argument of incompetence of counsel. Michael's 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.040 attorney for his two thousand two trial was a guy 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.760 named Mickey Sherman, and RFK has some pretty harsh words 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:52.400 for him in his book. I don't know if you 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.760 guys read the book or not. No, I skimmed it. 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:56.920 I'll be honest with you. I we had so much 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.640 stuff going on. I didn't. Yeah, that's two books I was. 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:05.160 I was stuck in so I did not. I'm sorry. 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:09.280 That's okay. Uh, Mickey's defense. I have to say that 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.040 even if he didn't cross every t I still really 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.560 don't see how the prosecution in this case got a conviction. 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.960 It seemed like a lot of it was circumstantial. Well, 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.040 yeah it was. There was no physical evidence. I mean, 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:21.920 there was linking him to the crime. There was some 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.480 physical evidence at the crime scene. One of the things 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.200 I forgot to mention, by the way, that the golf 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.320 club handle that was sticking out of her neck. Yeah, 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.040 two police officers and one doctor saw that thing. The 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.200 police officers sought sticking out of her neck, and a 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.200 doctor who was examining the body to make sure she 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:39.680 was actually dead, saw it laying on the ground next 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:44.040 to her body. So it looks like somebody pulled Yeah, yeah, 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:46.720 so he so it should have been in until Yeah, 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:48.240 he probably should have been it. You can see, you 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.120 can understand why somebody might want to pull it out, 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.200 but they didn't. The police didn't actually do a great 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.480 job of securing the crime scene. And apparently there were 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.280 a lot of people hanging around. Yeah, I know, yeah 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.600 it was they the Greenwich ailie had not actually investigated 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.119 a murder in decades, and obviously it never happens in 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.000 that town, and so it just wasn't there kind of thing, 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.640 and so they didn't really. There was other stuff found 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:13.480 near the body of a pair of jeans with a 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.080 size thirty six waist that was all soaked in blood 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.440 was found near the body. Some beer cans were found, 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.120 a golf ball, and all that evidence was apparently collected 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:27.040 but but lost. Yeah, well, please lose stuff. I mean, 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.679 it happens, I mean, but usually not like key pieces 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.240 of evidence. You know about dB Cooper's cigarette butts, Right, Devin, 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:39.600 Remember this is twenty seven years later by that point, 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.960 when when this case comes up. All I can say 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:44.760 is that I hope that when I'm blundened to death 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.520 and they find some soaked genes in my blood next 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.919 to the body, they hold onto those until like hundred 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.720 years later. We will we will go ahead and store 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.520 them in Joe's basement, because everything is in Joe's basement 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.440 and it never leaves perfect. That's a great spot. I 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:03.800 hate throwing stuff out. Yeah, they had the most important piece, 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.960 of course, that I was saying was the golf club handle, 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.320 and and the prosecution in Michael's trial managed to spend 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.120 that fact that that this this thing was missing as 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.159 the killer took it with him when he left the 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.240 crime scene. Right. Wait wait, wait, wait wait, wait back up. 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:24.320 So we have witnesses that see it in her initially 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.040 and then on the ground next to her later, and 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:31.560 then when it's disappeared twenty seven years later, that's because 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.439 the killer took it out of the body with them 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:38.840 at the time of the murder. Yeah, that is the 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.639 dumbest thing I've heard all day. Well, you know, I 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.920 read I didn't have time to read the entire transcript 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.000 of the entire thing of the entire trial, but I 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.679 read the summations of both the prosecution and the defense, 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:52.800 and so they went to all their arguments and talked 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:54.840 about all the evidence. So, you know, I really didn't 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.120 need to read the entire trial transcript. It was all there. 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.119 All the arguments were there, and the execution's theory was 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.920 a little strange. And they talked about the gulf the 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.639 missing murder weapon, because the thing about it is is 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.200 this was what's called the brand on this golf club 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.560 is Tony Panna. Apparently they're not It's not a really 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.680 common brand. And it had been owned by by Russian 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:19.720 Senior's wife Ann, who had died, and every every every 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.040 one of the clubs was embossed with her name, said 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.320 Mrs R. K. Skagill. And but by the way, was 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:27.200 that in the was that carved into the metal or 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:28.960 was that in the rubber of the handle? I believe 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.280 it was in the medal? Yeah, And so so that 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:35.320 the prosecution's theory was that the killer must have been 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.040 a skag because it would have been somebody from somebody else. 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:40.960 Then they wouldn't have had an interest in taking that 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.159 handle away because because it wouldn't be embossed with their 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:48.000 mother's name on it. Yeah. Yeah, and so obviously he 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:49.560 took that, he took the fact that this thing was 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:53.480 not in evidence that obviously that points a guilty finger 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.280 at somebody in the Skag family. I could see that, 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:01.040 except I also seemed to remember that these teenagers being teenagers, 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.119 left stuff lying around all the time, and if I 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.560 remember correctly, wasn't it it wasn't uncommon to see several 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:12.680 of the clubs just sitting on the on their property, 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:15.119 just hanging out. It wasn't as if they were always 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.080 put away and cared for. Yeah, that's that's that's true. 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.119 I mean they were apparently, so it's not as if 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:22.560 it was under lock and key and only by having 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.760 access to the home could you get one of those. 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.320 So now we have really good arguments for why the 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:33.200 case has been overturned. Yeah, so sorry, Yeah, but actually 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.879 Michael is not totally out of the woods. Obviously, the 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.639 prosecutors appealed his decision, and and they but it was 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:42.280 upheld on appeal, and now it's in front of the 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.720 Connecticut Supreme Court, and we should be hearing any day 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.000 now whether Michael gets to remain free or if he's 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:49.600 going to go back to prison, or if he's going 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.120 to get a new trial, and I think that he's 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:53.880 not gonna get I don't think they're going to retry him. 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.639 I would be amazed. Yeah. Yeah, it's incredible. The number 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.159 of people who are serving serious time for crimes that 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:05.240 they literally didn't commited. Happens a lot more often they'd 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:07.600 like to think. It really does, Yeah, which is scary 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:09.639 to me. Yeah. It just goes to show you when 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:11.720 anything like this happens, to be really careful what you 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.880 say to the police. Yeah, this is why I was. Yeah. 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:19.159 Just yeah, that doesn't look guilty at all. Yeah, you 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:21.560 just got it, you know. Dump them in a swamp somewhere. Yeah, 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.840 that's it. Take them up to the marshes on tape. Yeah. 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:29.160 You know. Actually there's a book on how to get 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.840 rid of dead bodies. Yeah, I've seen it on your bookshelf. 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:35.840 I guess i'd better hide that. Let's go back to 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.639 the previous night. October thirty is ken Littleton pork In 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.240 first day in the job. He took the scgle kids 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.479 to the bell Haven Club, which is one of those 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:46.840 super exclusive places that wouldn't let somebody like me join 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:48.800 because you wouldn't be able to own a house there, 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:52.000 so yeah, yeah, I've seen aerials and stuff of it, 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:55.359 and it looks like a pretty possible club. They returned 0:21:55.400 --> 0:22:00.000 to the chicle house about Martha Moxley had left her 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.920 house across the street around sixty seven, joined up with 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:07.960 their friends Helen X and Jeff Byrne. October thirty in 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:10.800 Belhaven is what's called Mischief Knight. Apparently, Mischief Night happens 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.600 in a lot of places. I mean, it's never a 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:16.600 really better thing in places that I've lived, I've heard 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:19.000 of it. It's it's common enough that though I never 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:21.240 was in an area that it happened or partook in it, 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.520 I knew of it. Yeah. Yeah, but that's Halloween Eve 0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:28.560 and the tradition of the neighborhood is for the kids 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:30.679 to go out and and bull pranks. You know, they 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:33.720 like ring people's doorbells and run away and like a 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:36.280 bag of dog poo and run away. That's a good one. Yeah. 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:44.120 Houses and trees and houses, yes, egg cars stuff, Oh 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.080 my god. I know one time when I was home 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.959 alone without my parents over a Halloween, somebody egged our 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:53.200 house and they were like gone, you know, and I 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:55.280 didn't know how to deal with it, and it was 0:22:55.480 --> 0:23:01.879 the worst and I had no idea. Uh well, now 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.080 you know, and for anybody who's listening, the first thing 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:05.800 you do is get out the garden hoses starting hosing 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:08.560 off the house because it's gonna stick. Yeah, and also 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:10.560 it can wreck your pain job in your car, so 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:14.119 you gotta get cleaned. Yeah. Yeah. All these hijaks were 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.040 accepted with good humor by the local homeowners because, after all, 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:21.920 they were rich, so they weren't cleaning up the mess 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:27.360 house needed a new paint job again anyway, big deal, 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:30.239 right shack you kind of you kind of wonder if 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:33.200 that's the sort of tradition that gets started by the 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:37.760 staff or like painters, you know where they're like, you 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:40.320 should go to egg that house. So I found out 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:42.560 how to get onto that that property and go ahead 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:44.560 and just egg every house you can because I need 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:47.680 we need some work winners coming. It's gonna be slow. Yeah, 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:49.680 oh yeah. And they were always in the Bell Haven, 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:51.320 by the way, if you were on foot, it's just 0:23:51.400 --> 0:23:53.560 that if you're on car, they had these guardhouses and 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:55.639 gates at the you know, at the community. Yeah, it's 0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:58.800 like that in every community. No, no gated community is 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:01.960 completely sealed off. Oh no, it can't be. Yeah, So 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:05.760 Martha Moxley, along with her friends Helen and Jeff, stopped 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:08.720 by the Scag House um since they were buddies with 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:11.679 Tommy and Michael. But of course Tommy and Michael weren't there. 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:14.440 They were at the bell of Haven Club with Canon Littleton. 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.000 They laughed, but they returned a little after nine pm, 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:20.520 and Michael took them out to the family's Lincoln Continental 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:22.440 in the driveway and they all climbed in and started 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:26.120 listening to eight track tapes and smoking cigarettes. The eight track. 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:29.680 We eight track? That the worst format ever. Have you 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:32.720 ever listened to an eight track tape? They never stopped, 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:34.800 They just well, I think the thing that drives you 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:36.679 crazy is it always happens in the middle of your 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:38.680 favorite song on the tape. You're going along along, there's 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:40.960 all of a sudden dead and then you just jump 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:45.520 and standing, reverses and starts playing back the other direction. Yeah, 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:49.320 terrible format. Don't buy an eight track. Well, they're pretty 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:52.119 they're still pretty popular. I'm sure everybody's good at one 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:57.040 there called eight tracks dot Com. Oh really, is it 0:24:57.240 --> 0:24:59.879 like the Museum of eight Tracks? No, you just make playlists, 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:04.480 got it? Okay, that's my only experience with eight tracks. 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:10.240 You've never actually seen one in real life, too young. Yeah, 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:12.200 so you see that book right there, that that's the 0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:17.440 size of an eight track because big big cartridges. Yeah 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:20.119 that was anyway, your young kids today don't know how 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:24.000 good you got it with your fancy iPod. Okay, So Martha, Tommy, 0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:27.080 and Michael are in the Lincoln. Yeah, back to our thing. 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:30.159 Well yeah, well the four of them were almost and 0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:33.159 then yeah, Tommy comes out of the house supposedly to 0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:34.760 get one of those hawk and big tapes out of 0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:37.320 the car, and he wind up joining them in the car. 0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:42.240 But then not long after that, around Rush Junior brother, 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:46.040 yeah the oldest one, and his cousin Jim terry and 0:25:46.160 --> 0:25:47.760 came out and told them they were gonna have to 0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:49.520 get out of the car because they needed to take 0:25:49.760 --> 0:25:54.560 Jim to his house, which was about when eleven miles away. Michael, 0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:57.040 by the way, had been planning to go to the 0:25:57.160 --> 0:25:59.920 terry In's house because apparently Rush Junior had seen an EPI. 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:02.080 So do Monty Python's flying surface. He was in a 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:04.760 test group. He was he was away at college at 0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:07.399 Princeton or somewhere like that or Yale or something, and 0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:09.920 apparently he'd gotten that chance to see this and he 0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:12.800 thought it was really awesome. It was Monty Pythons flying 0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:15.560 Surface was a great show. Yes it was weird, but 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:17.720 it was fun. Yeah, it was totally off the wall, 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:20.240 but it was great. But apparently that it was the 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:23.320 American premiere of the Flying Circus was taking place that night, 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:25.359 and so they were going to all just go back 0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:27.200 to the Harrians and hang out and drink a beer 0:26:27.280 --> 0:26:29.960 and watch it. Because this was the time when you 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:33.480 couldn't just DVR it and watch it later. You had 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:35.240 to see it then or you weren't going to see 0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:38.040 it again. Pretty much. I guess maybe I don't know 0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:42.880 why they couldn't just stay there. I'm going to guess 0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:45.439 that it was Wow what it would it was seventy 0:26:45.600 --> 0:26:49.280 five cable access. It had to be antenna TV, but 0:26:49.359 --> 0:26:51.440 it might have been a station issue. In other words, 0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:54.440 they may not have gotten the same station at one 0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:57.760 house to the next based on the antenna set up. Yeah, 0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:00.280 it could have been that in a neighborhood. Like even 0:27:00.320 --> 0:27:02.920 I assume that they have everything you would think, but 0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:08.760 you're it's it's antenna television. You might be rich, but 0:27:08.880 --> 0:27:12.239 you can't change air waves, So that could have been 0:27:12.280 --> 0:27:14.000 It could have been something as simple as they were 0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:15.920 just going to kill two birds with one stone. Jimmy 0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:17.640 had to be home at a certain time, and then 0:27:18.200 --> 0:27:20.479 you know, he had a massive stash of weeds. Yea, 0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:23.960 his parents weren't home. Yeah, they didn't know if Kenna 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:28.720 let them drink yeah, uh oney, way, Michael, before Martha 0:27:28.920 --> 0:27:31.040 exited the car, asked her if she wanted to come along, 0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:33.520 but she said she couldn't because she had a nine curfew. 0:27:33.880 --> 0:27:36.160 So then Tommy and Martha, Helen and Jeff get out 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:38.600 of the car. Michael stays in Russ, John and Jim 0:27:38.720 --> 0:27:41.080 climb and they leave for Jim's house, which is called 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:44.520 Cirsam Corda. I'm sorry what Corda? No, I'm sorry. I 0:27:44.640 --> 0:27:46.560 was more reacting to the fact that his home has 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:49.040 a name. I know, I know because his Jimmy, Terry 0:27:49.080 --> 0:27:51.159 and his family is also really sticking rich and they 0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:53.920 had imagine so huge when they get to a certain 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:55.240 size to get to have a name of their own. 0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:57.239 I really got to come up with a name from 0:27:57.280 --> 0:28:00.040 my house. Yeah, and then put it on Google I 0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:03.000 think your in your house has a name already. Pee 0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:07.800 what I don't even make sense. I was going to 0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:11.400 say something way less flattering. Okay. So that left Tommy, Martha, Helen, 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:14.040 and Jeff standing in the driveway, and apparently, according to 0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:17.399 what Helen and Jeff said to the police afterwards, Tommy 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:20.679 and Martha were engaging in flirtatious behavior with one another 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:23.480 and it was kind of making them uncomfortable. Is that 0:28:23.560 --> 0:28:28.359 an euphemism for flirtatious behavior? Yeah, like, were they like 0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:31.680 going at it. They were just flirting. They were flirting 0:28:31.720 --> 0:28:34.360 and there was a little a little pushing and horseplay 0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:36.520 and stuff like that. It's always weird to me when 0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:39.680 fellow teenagers are like it was making me uncomfortable. Yeah, 0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:42.600 it was like, actually felt like a third wheel. Well, 0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:45.040 I was just saying, as as a dude watching another 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:48.160 dude hitting on a girl and he might be maybe 0:28:48.200 --> 0:28:51.400 getting some traction. It's weird you're just standing there and 0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:53.520 you can't have a conversation because every time you make 0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:58.080 a joke they ignore you. It's it's awkward. Yeah, like 0:28:58.160 --> 0:29:00.560 I said, Helen's hell, I felt like a third she said, 0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:02.400 and so that and she had to care for you anyway, 0:29:02.520 --> 0:29:04.880 nine thirtyes, so she took off one with Jeff And 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:08.120 so that means Tommy was the last known person to 0:29:08.160 --> 0:29:15.480 see Martha alive to seventh Michael's fifteen there was and 0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:18.760 that's that's one reason he was a suspect for so long. Yeah, 0:29:18.880 --> 0:29:23.760 Tommy was. So this was about nine twenty and Tommy 0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:26.640 told police the following day after her body was found. 0:29:26.680 --> 0:29:29.120 The police came by the Sago household and they interviewed 0:29:29.160 --> 0:29:32.600 everybody there that afternoon. But yeah, oh yeah, he said 0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:34.560 that he and Martha chatted for a little while, that 0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:37.080 she left around nine thirty and then she went back 0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:39.120 and said the house to work on a report for 0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:42.560 school about Abraham Lincoln, which turned out to be a lie. 0:29:43.040 --> 0:29:46.640 Uh yeah, yeah, I guess. Police check to Tommy's school. 0:29:46.640 --> 0:29:49.840 They found out Tommy hadn't been assigned any such report. Uh. 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:52.520 And also Cam Littleton, the tutor he was also supposed 0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:53.600 to be keep an eye of kids. He did a 0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:58.360 bed check, uh and about five and uh he said 0:29:58.400 --> 0:30:02.200 that Tommy wasn't there. Tommy said that while he stepped 0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:04.040 across the hallway to a guest room to get a 0:30:04.080 --> 0:30:06.160 book for his report, he stayed there to work on it. 0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:09.960 Probably probably also another line um that was just big enough. 0:30:09.960 --> 0:30:14.720 Though he could have theoretically been anywhere, he just wasn't 0:30:14.720 --> 0:30:17.120 in bed. Yeah, yeah, just it just wasn't his bed. 0:30:17.480 --> 0:30:20.560 And he changed his story in summer the summer of two. 0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:23.600 More about that later. But he was with Martha longer 0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:28.720 than he actually said, six seventeen years, okay, yeah, yeah, 0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:31.800 it's been a while that he finally changed his story. 0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:33.320 A lot of people in this story. A lot of 0:30:33.360 --> 0:30:35.760 people change their stories in this one. I mean a lot, 0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:43.560 I guess. I mean it does. We're talking about like kids, really, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, 0:30:43.640 --> 0:30:46.959 Like these people are kids, and they may not totally understand. 0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:50.400 Especially I'm sorry if any of our listeners are, you know, 0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:53.280 super rich, but like the super rich kids that I've 0:30:53.320 --> 0:30:57.440 ever met really have that mentality of like like like 0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:00.560 I'll get away with it doesn't matter, or they don't 0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:05.480 understand the like severity of if you're fifteen and you're 0:31:05.480 --> 0:31:08.040 trying to not get in trouble for like sleeping with 0:31:08.160 --> 0:31:11.000 a girl, you're not necessarily going to be like, oh, yeah, 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:14.120 well we had sex, and then you know this, Maybe 0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:16.360 it's not the accurate example, right, But you're not going 0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:18.880 to say, oh, yeah, we had sex and then I 0:31:19.040 --> 0:31:20.560 came home. You're going to say like, no, no, no, 0:31:20.640 --> 0:31:25.280 I'm perfect. Right, And then what fourteen fifteen years later, 0:31:25.360 --> 0:31:28.280 when you kind of realized like, oh, not that that 0:31:28.440 --> 0:31:31.880 was dumb, you might come out and admit that. I mean, yeah, 0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:35.640 it's shady, but it's not such a huge problem to me. 0:31:35.800 --> 0:31:38.040 I guess, well, yeah, now there's that. Well we'll talk 0:31:38.080 --> 0:31:41.680 a little bit more about that. But yeah, he he was. 0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:44.080 What turns out it really was with Martha for about 0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:46.880 twenty minutes longer than he said, which pushing with Martha 0:31:46.960 --> 0:31:48.920 were right about the time of the murder or right 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:53.840 up to it one timeline, Yeah, according to one, I 0:31:53.880 --> 0:31:56.240 mean what I meantime, of course, Russ Junior, John and 0:31:56.320 --> 0:31:59.040 Michael were over Jimmy Terran's watching Monty Python and they 0:31:59.080 --> 0:32:02.080 got back home around and twenty pm, And they gave 0:32:02.160 --> 0:32:04.920 that statement to the police on the thirty first, and 0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:08.360 Michael la later changed his story to which is what 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:11.480 landed him in jail. Eventually, at the same time that 0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:15.520 the skateboys got home, John Moxley's markin Who's Martha's Brother seventeen, 0:32:15.600 --> 0:32:18.880 also arrived home and his mother, Dorothy, told him that 0:32:18.920 --> 0:32:21.400 Martha wasn't home yet and that she was wordy worried. 0:32:21.600 --> 0:32:24.040 And I saw an interview with John on Unsolved Mystery. 0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:26.160 It was done years after. There's a little bit of 0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:29.080 humor in this. I like, yeah, yeah, and he said 0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:31.240 that when she first said that, his initial reaction was, 0:32:31.840 --> 0:32:34.640 and I'm paraphrasing everything, he said, well, well, for once, 0:32:34.680 --> 0:32:37.440 it's a little bits perfect his home lade, not me unquote, 0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:43.120 which obviously it was not a good thing after the fact, 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:46.960 but yeah, And I'm making note of that because a 0:32:47.000 --> 0:32:49.920 lot has been made about Martha's curfew and how scrupulous 0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:52.600 she was about obeying her coup curfew kind of a 0:32:52.640 --> 0:32:56.040 big bone of contention, because if she would have or curfew, 0:32:56.280 --> 0:32:58.080 she was obedient to a curfew, she would not have 0:32:58.160 --> 0:33:01.600 stayed out until way, way late, right, in order to 0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:05.640 be murdered by Michael. Well, God, with maybe like one exception, right, 0:33:05.680 --> 0:33:08.400 I mean right, I mean you can say this was 0:33:08.480 --> 0:33:10.720 the first time she stayed up late. Yeah, it could 0:33:10.880 --> 0:33:14.840 were the one of the first times. Yeah. Well, there's 0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:17.000 a lot of arguing about that. Mark Ferman claims his 0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:19.800 book that she had violated her curfew by many hours 0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:22.880 just a week before. But he doesn't sign any actual 0:33:23.000 --> 0:33:26.600 sources for that or documentation. That's gonna say. I'm glad 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:29.240 you said sources because in your script you say documentation, 0:33:29.360 --> 0:33:32.000 and that's like my favorite thing. Like Dorothy the mom 0:33:32.440 --> 0:33:35.440 was sitting there, you know, with a nightly Bob ten 0:33:35.640 --> 0:33:41.000 fifty four pm, Martha still not home. Yeah, I didn't 0:33:41.000 --> 0:33:43.440 mean that kind of thing. I just said, he doesn't 0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:48.239 say where he got Yeah, yeah, right, No, I mean 0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:50.960 I think you know, again, it's like she's fifteen. She's 0:33:50.960 --> 0:33:53.080 probably starting to push the bounds of her curfew a 0:33:53.160 --> 0:33:57.680 little bit. Seems like maybe it's an early curfew, and 0:33:57.840 --> 0:34:00.080 especially on a night like that or if she was 0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:02.120 getting involved with someone or something like that, she may 0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:05.000 be trying to test it a little bit. Um, But 0:34:05.160 --> 0:34:08.120 staying out till two in the morning, I'm not so sure. Well, yeah, 0:34:08.239 --> 0:34:09.840 probably not staying out til two in the morning, and 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:13.359 probably not like all the time, you know, like once 0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:17.000 every couple of weeks by a half hour. It's it's 0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:20.239 it's it's relevant just to the establishment of the time 0:34:20.280 --> 0:34:23.080 of death. Yeah, so what is what is the official 0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:27.320 time of death? Well, the police said it at ten pm, 0:34:27.400 --> 0:34:31.200 right around to maybe ten to maybe his latest ten fifteen. 0:34:31.320 --> 0:34:33.439 They're using a kind of a half hour window, yeah, 0:34:33.560 --> 0:34:35.200 right in there. And the reason they're putting it at 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.680 that is that the X dog, Helen X, lived across 0:34:38.920 --> 0:34:41.959 Walsh Lane in in a nice big mansion. Of course, 0:34:42.239 --> 0:34:44.360 she and her family lived across Walsh Lane to the 0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:47.239 north and they had an Australian shepherd named Zach and 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:50.560 apparently Zach was a bit of a barker, but that night, 0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:54.320 at about nine pm, he started barking really furiously and 0:34:54.400 --> 0:34:58.120 super intensely, and so that's it's thinking, this thought that 0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:00.400 the assault was beginning right about the time when he 0:35:00.440 --> 0:35:06.880 started barking. Yeah, the dog did bark. Yeah. Also there's 0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:10.560 Mark Berman, the decided and said that he thought he 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:12.640 she had violated a curfew by a lot because he 0:35:12.680 --> 0:35:14.600 wanted to be able to expand the time window for 0:35:14.760 --> 0:35:16.640 the time of death. And I you know what, I 0:35:16.760 --> 0:35:19.879 kind of agree with him a little bit. I think 0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:24.719 that the police is reasoning for this timeline is like 0:35:24.840 --> 0:35:27.960 weird to well, actually, the police, the police want and 0:35:28.040 --> 0:35:32.360 got themselves one of the primary forests medical examiners in 0:35:32.440 --> 0:35:35.359 the country guy, the guy from Houston, Texas who had 0:35:35.880 --> 0:35:38.320 done thousands of not tens of thousands of murders and 0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:42.280 everything and and presented all everything though the autopsy reports 0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:45.880 and and all the reports about dogs barking and everything else. 0:35:45.960 --> 0:35:48.040 And he's at the time of death at ten PM. 0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:51.440 So it wasn't just the local grainichpdo did this? I mean, 0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:56.680 did that based on contents? Well that's the part that 0:35:56.800 --> 0:36:00.560 kind of gives me a bit of a pause. Well, yeah, 0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:03.640 because Martha had had a grilled cheese sandwich about six 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:06.960 thirty six thirty, so that was gone from her stomach. 0:36:07.640 --> 0:36:10.319 So the stomach takes two to four hours to clear food, 0:36:10.640 --> 0:36:13.520 so that means she could easily have been killed around ten. 0:36:14.480 --> 0:36:17.719 But her stomach also had three ounces of fluid in it, 0:36:17.840 --> 0:36:19.920 and she had had a coke at the Skags, or 0:36:19.920 --> 0:36:22.480 at least part of a coke, and the stomach obviously 0:36:22.560 --> 0:36:26.800 clears liquids a lot faster than it clears solids, and 0:36:26.920 --> 0:36:29.160 so she's still So the fact that she still had 0:36:29.360 --> 0:36:31.680 that after drinking all a part of a coke at 0:36:31.719 --> 0:36:34.680 the Skkles indicates that she was not murdered hours and 0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:39.880 hours and hours after unless she had been somewhere for 0:36:40.000 --> 0:36:43.080 hours and hours and then drank three or four ounces 0:36:43.280 --> 0:36:46.520 of something which would then be in her stomach. There's 0:36:46.600 --> 0:36:49.959 there's a little bit of there is. The logic isn't 0:36:50.239 --> 0:36:52.960 completely perfect because it assumes that that coke at the 0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:57.560 Skeggles was the very last thing she drank. You don't 0:36:57.560 --> 0:36:59.360 know what she was out and about doing. I also 0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:01.520 but that the reason I think the time at the 0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:03.640 time of death was around Tin is that if she 0:37:03.880 --> 0:37:06.160 was seen anywhere, if she was out and about, she 0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:09.040 was a sociable person. She wouldn't have just wandered around 0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:13.320 the darkness and not met up with somebody, and she 0:37:13.360 --> 0:37:16.680 would have been seen by somebody, and she wasn't about 0:37:16.800 --> 0:37:20.240 not by anybody. Um And so that's my major reason 0:37:20.360 --> 0:37:23.200 for thinking that she could not have dropped somewhere else. 0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:26.800 Right around Tin was the time of death. This, this 0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:30.600 whole thing actually has me asking this very morbid question 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:34.920 of like, yeah, but when you're going undergoing um an assault, 0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:39.000 like a really severe assault like she underwent, is your 0:37:39.040 --> 0:37:44.200 body still processing food? Right? Is your body still processing liquid? 0:37:44.320 --> 0:37:46.280 So like, if she was being beat over the period 0:37:46.320 --> 0:37:49.600 of you know, ten to fifteen minutes, does that affect 0:37:49.719 --> 0:37:52.279 the time. That's just something that like popped into my 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:55.560 head to read. That doesn't change the timeline that much. 0:37:55.680 --> 0:37:58.120 But I just started to think about that as a 0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:03.239 really maccab question, as they should ask one of our 0:38:03.239 --> 0:38:06.200 experts about what I was about to suggest. Yeah, yeah, 0:38:06.200 --> 0:38:08.680 I don't know a good question. So listeners, if you 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:10.960 weren't just like totally turned off by that and you 0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:13.880 had the answer, email us, please do Back to the 0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:16.200 night of the thirtieth, Dorothy Moxley fell asleep in her 0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:19.160 cach that's Martha's mom, remember, and we woke up around 0:38:19.239 --> 0:38:22.840 one thirty. Martha still wasn't home, and Dorothy was getting 0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:25.879 pretty worried by this time, so she wakes John up 0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:28.520 uh and asked him to go out looking for Martha, 0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:30.399 and John said he drove around for a few hours 0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:33.600 looking but found a sign of Martha and anyone home 0:38:33.640 --> 0:38:35.360 and went to sleep in the TV room in the 0:38:35.400 --> 0:38:38.440 basement apparently. And during this time Dorothy is calling all 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:42.320 around for basically anybody that knows Martha and called the 0:38:42.480 --> 0:38:44.600 called the scats obviously in a lot of other people. 0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:47.680 And this is the next morning, this is the wee 0:38:47.760 --> 0:38:50.239 hours of October two I'm sure they were all really 0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:52.799 happy about Yeah, I'm sure they were. I'm sure they 0:38:52.840 --> 0:38:55.520 were understanding about it. Actually had reason to be scared, 0:38:55.600 --> 0:38:58.840 you know that. And then about eight thirty in the 0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:00.640 morning of the thirty one, Roarthy went over to the 0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:03.240 skate goes to ask if they had seen Martha. Michael 0:39:03.280 --> 0:39:05.799 Ska had fallen asleep in his clothes on his bed, 0:39:06.239 --> 0:39:08.520 and when Dorothy saw him, she said that he was 0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:11.480 pale and looked a little fraid around the edges, but 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:13.560 he had had a lot to drink the night before. 0:39:14.000 --> 0:39:15.600 I didn't maybe mention what. They went to the bell 0:39:15.880 --> 0:39:18.920 the bell Haven Cloud, they drank alcohol and stuff and 0:39:18.960 --> 0:39:20.960 continue to drink after they got back to the house. 0:39:21.880 --> 0:39:27.040 As teenagers, they don't know what they're doing. Yeah, oh no, 0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:29.759 they know what they're doing. Getting drunk is what they're doing. 0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:35.080 They don't know what they're doing when Yeah, well, yeah, 0:39:35.200 --> 0:39:37.920 so Michael had just woken up, and so he and 0:39:38.000 --> 0:39:39.799 he was wearing his clothes. He was wearing his clothes 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:42.239 from the night before. Yeah, so he had passed out, Yeah, 0:39:42.280 --> 0:39:45.640 he passed out. He was They took his shoes off 0:39:45.680 --> 0:39:47.719 and then just conked out. But also, like i'd like 0:39:47.760 --> 0:39:50.920 to clarify he was wearing his clothes from the night before. 0:39:51.560 --> 0:39:55.160 He wasn't like missing his blood soaked pants somewhere now. 0:39:55.239 --> 0:39:57.279 I mean, I don't know if he was wearing the 0:39:57.360 --> 0:40:00.080 exact same clothes that he was wearing the night and 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:02.120 that night before when he went over to the Terran's 0:40:02.160 --> 0:40:04.640 house he was wearing clothes. Theoretically he was wearing the 0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:07.960 same clothes if he will went to sleeping is closed though, Yeah, probably, 0:40:08.560 --> 0:40:11.080 and theory, I mean, there's no reason to come home, 0:40:11.160 --> 0:40:13.640 take off your bloodstained clothes and then and then get 0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:15.640 redressed and go to bed. Yeah, you would put your 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:18.239 PJS on probably, or just you know, go to bed 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:21.600 in your underwear or something. Anyway, Michael searched the house 0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:23.640 and the grounds of the end of the house, and 0:40:23.640 --> 0:40:26.920 then their gardener, Franz, and the teen wentn't checked their RV. 0:40:27.160 --> 0:40:29.279 They had this r V called a rev Con. I 0:40:29.320 --> 0:40:33.200 don't know what brand that is, but check that because oh, 0:40:33.239 --> 0:40:35.160 I'm sure it was the best there was. Yeah, but 0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:38.400 apparently you know she uh, well, apparently Martha and the 0:40:38.719 --> 0:40:40.759 kids like to party in the rev can occasionally, so 0:40:41.040 --> 0:40:43.960 that was worth checking. But Martha was not there, so 0:40:44.000 --> 0:40:47.520 about noon. Martha's friend, Sheila McGuire, who was also fifteen uh, 0:40:48.040 --> 0:40:49.680 and she lived in the house just to the south 0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:52.160 of the Moxley house. He was cutting across the Moxley 0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:55.600 yard headed towards Walsh Lane. Once she spotted Martha's body 0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:58.640 under the big pine tree. And so she goes to 0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:02.160 the Moxley house to tell them what she's seen, because 0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:04.080 by the I didn't mention, by the way, the whole 0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:06.360 neighborhood knows. By this time, and the whole neighborho was 0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:08.600 out because they were woken up at like three o'clock 0:41:08.640 --> 0:41:13.080 in the morning. Yeah, yeah, So a lot of people 0:41:13.120 --> 0:41:15.719 were out looking for Martha, and and then she just 0:41:15.800 --> 0:41:17.960 happens to find her by accident. You'll be happy to know. 0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:20.560 She was never a suspect, by the way, and that 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:23.239 of course the police are called. Then again, the first 0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:25.799 two Greenish policemen have showed up, confirmed that she was dead, 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:28.040 called for more troops, and then again they noticed the 0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:29.920 handle of the golf club sticking out of her neck. 0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:31.840 And in fact, one of them mentioned it to his 0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:34.759 wife that night when he got home. Yeah yeah, and 0:41:34.880 --> 0:41:39.239 she remembered him saying that too. It's pretty crazily. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:42.280 it's pretty brutal murder. And of course the Moxley family 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:44.480 doctor was called in to confirm her that she was 0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:47.200 actually dead, and he noticed the golf club handle laying 0:41:47.200 --> 0:41:49.400 in the ground next to Martha. Um, so he can 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:52.120 remember the golf club handle. And Dorothy, for her part, 0:41:52.200 --> 0:41:56.439 did not go outside is to view Martha's body understandably. Yeah, yeah, 0:41:56.840 --> 0:41:58.279 she didn't want she didn't want that to be her 0:41:58.320 --> 0:42:01.040 last memory of Martha. You know, I can't blame it 0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:04.480 for that. And the initial theory by the police of 0:42:04.520 --> 0:42:06.600 the people who Granwich was that it was committed by 0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:09.480 some random transient who had wandered through the neighborhood. So 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:13.400 we're not quite there, but that was that was the 0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:17.160 initial theory. It was the police. Yeah, I mean that 0:42:17.239 --> 0:42:19.160 was what everybody because everybody thought, I mean, oh my god, 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:21.480 this is this is Belle Haven, Connecticut, this is like, 0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:23.880 these are the best people in hon earth. There's no 0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:27.439 murderers living in our town. But maybe there was. Of course, 0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:29.760 Tommy Skill was the last person to see Martha alive, 0:42:29.880 --> 0:42:31.920 so he was grilled pretty good. In fact, the night 0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:33.680 of the thirty feet they hauled him down that After 0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:36.240 questioning Tommy and all the other kids, they hauled Tommy 0:42:36.320 --> 0:42:38.480 down to the police station and grilled him for about 0:42:38.480 --> 0:42:41.120 six hours. Well that's it's gotta suck because you know, 0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:42.640 he has to put a lot of work into his 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:44.640 Halloween costs and we didn't get to use it. Well, 0:42:44.719 --> 0:42:46.839 I know, the poor guy. Well that kind of sucks 0:42:46.840 --> 0:42:48.759 from Michael, Kasie and Martha had made plans to go 0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:50.839 trick or treating on the night oft one, and well 0:42:51.040 --> 0:42:55.200 his date was gone. So scotch that the police while 0:42:55.239 --> 0:42:57.920 they were over on the thirty one at the Skill household. 0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:00.640 Of course they are already a stabbed last by finding 0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:02.040 the pieces of the golf club that it was a 0:43:02.120 --> 0:43:05.719 Tony pen of golf club. Yeah, and to a couple 0:43:05.760 --> 0:43:07.560 of grandish police but noticed that there was a Tony 0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:10.600 penn of golf club which was a fore iron. That 0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:13.480 the murder weapons was a Tony pen a six iron. Uh, 0:43:13.600 --> 0:43:15.600 they've noticed his fore iron in a barrel in the 0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:18.040 family's mudroom. Had the barrel head to you know what 0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:22.759 whatever you have in your mode room, you know, umbrella. Yeah, yeah, 0:43:22.920 --> 0:43:25.479 so they noticed this. Two days later they came back 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:27.640 and they asked permission to search the house number one, 0:43:27.640 --> 0:43:29.560 and they asked permission to take the fore iron which 0:43:29.680 --> 0:43:32.200 was still there in the barrel, and so they took 0:43:32.280 --> 0:43:34.920 that sand. Of course, it was engraved with the words 0:43:35.040 --> 0:43:38.359 Mrs R Case Skegle on the handle, and they did 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:40.240 serious to According to the police, they searched the Skagle 0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:43.840 house pretty thoroughly and didn't find anything. So eventually this 0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:46.320 case kind of kind of went cold. I mean, they 0:43:46.360 --> 0:43:49.760 investigated Tommy for a long time. They questioned him many times, 0:43:49.840 --> 0:43:54.560 they gave him polygraphs twice which we were inconclusive, and 0:43:55.040 --> 0:43:57.680 they they really went after a bunch of other people 0:43:57.719 --> 0:44:00.400 to mentioned Candle, a Littleton and all talk about a 0:44:00.400 --> 0:44:03.360 few others also. But then eventually the case went cold 0:44:03.719 --> 0:44:06.840 until the nineteen nineties, and then there was a sentence 0:44:06.880 --> 0:44:08.719 from I don't want to get too deep into the 0:44:08.760 --> 0:44:11.759 weeds here, but there there was this rumor that came 0:44:11.800 --> 0:44:14.799 out during the rape trial of William Kennedy Smith there 0:44:14.920 --> 0:44:20.040 was another Kennedy cousin. There's a lot of Kennedy cousins, Yeah, yeah, 0:44:20.120 --> 0:44:22.239 there are, and so he was on tropic rape and 0:44:22.320 --> 0:44:25.120 of course that received national attention. Some of the tabloids 0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:27.200 for some reason started circulating a rumor that he had 0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:29.800 been present at the Skegal household on the night of 0:44:29.840 --> 0:44:33.719 the murder. And it's the tabloids. You gotta love the press, 0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:36.000 I know. But but of course it wasn't true. But 0:44:36.080 --> 0:44:38.319 that brought some more attention back to this case, because 0:44:38.360 --> 0:44:42.000 it was long, long since cold at that point. Yeah, yeah, 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:44.080 police announced they were going to like look into the 0:44:44.120 --> 0:44:46.960 case again. I mean at this point rushed and senior, 0:44:47.080 --> 0:44:50.080 a rookie, was really tired of living under this cloud 0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:54.239 of suspicion. It was mainly over Tommy. And that's right. 0:44:54.400 --> 0:44:59.439 He commissioned the report. Yeah, I had two. He hired 0:44:59.440 --> 0:45:02.880 a group called Sutton Sudden Investigations too, and they were 0:45:02.920 --> 0:45:05.760 easily were a bunch of former FBI agents and stuff, 0:45:05.840 --> 0:45:08.839 and they were private investigation organization. He said, we want 0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:11.239 you to solve this case. You know, sky's the limit 0:45:11.280 --> 0:45:13.759 on one time it comes to the cash. And so 0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:16.800 they fully expecting that it was going to exonerate his 0:45:17.040 --> 0:45:20.880 entire family. Well yeah, because yeah, because if he if 0:45:20.920 --> 0:45:22.640 he knew it was a member of his family, why 0:45:22.680 --> 0:45:25.680 the hell would you do something like that, right, I mean, so, yeah, 0:45:25.719 --> 0:45:28.719 he hired them to do this and that's when things 0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:30.880 kind of like got out of hand. They they were 0:45:31.040 --> 0:45:34.120 they were questioning Tommy and Michael, and Tommy, well, Michael 0:45:34.200 --> 0:45:36.360 changed his story. It turns out he didn't just go 0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:38.640 straight to bed when he got home. He actually went 0:45:38.719 --> 0:45:42.359 back out and I want to go window peeping. There 0:45:42.440 --> 0:45:47.440 was this this lady Michael did Tommy. Yeah, So Michael 0:45:47.480 --> 0:45:49.600 went out to go window peeping. Apparently there's some local 0:45:49.680 --> 0:45:53.279 lady who liked to walk around naked and sometimes after 0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:55.480 dark and so, you which to a fifteen year old 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:59.680 boys is just irresistible in the seventies particular, right, I 0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:02.560 mean for the Internet, that's not good point to Yeah, 0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:05.800 And it turns out her her lights were out and 0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:07.759 there was no action there. So he said that had 0:46:07.840 --> 0:46:09.480 this thought that, well, you know, maybe I'll go by 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:11.719 the go by to the Moxley's house and see if 0:46:11.719 --> 0:46:14.200 I could wake up Martha, you know, and Sean want 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:16.400 to see he wants to make out or something. Actually, 0:46:16.400 --> 0:46:17.879 I think there's are his words, woul Maybe I'll see 0:46:17.880 --> 0:46:19.440 if can get a kiss from Martha. She likes me. 0:46:20.040 --> 0:46:22.000 So he climbed a tree that outside and then in 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:24.760 the front of the house and tosses a few pebbles 0:46:24.880 --> 0:46:27.560 at her window and calls that her name and gets 0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:30.880 no response, and its believed that she He actually was 0:46:30.960 --> 0:46:33.880 outside a second story window that was actually John and 0:46:34.000 --> 0:46:36.600 her brother John's bedroom. But that wouldn't have got a 0:46:36.680 --> 0:46:38.560 good Yeah, if somebody been home, he would not have 0:46:38.640 --> 0:46:41.600 been happy with the results he got. Yeah, not really. Uh. 0:46:41.680 --> 0:46:43.800 And Martha's bedroom was actually on the third floor. She 0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:46.239 had the entire third floor to herself, and so he 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:48.239 was he had totally had the wrong room. But John, John, 0:46:48.280 --> 0:46:50.680 I think was at that point was downstairs watching the 0:46:50.920 --> 0:46:53.279 evening news with his mother, So he wasn't that he 0:46:53.360 --> 0:46:56.160 wasn't in the bedroom. Uh So Michael at that point, 0:46:56.440 --> 0:46:59.279 uh um, I don't tact the way to put this. 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:03.960 He masturbating can be said just like sitting in the 0:47:04.040 --> 0:47:06.200 tree outside of John's bedroom. Yeah, he decided to just 0:47:06.200 --> 0:47:09.760 start playing a little pocket pool and according to Mark Ferman, 0:47:09.880 --> 0:47:13.600 he reached orgasm. According to RFK Jr. He did not. 0:47:13.920 --> 0:47:16.239 He realized he suddenly realized what a stupid thing he 0:47:16.360 --> 0:47:18.200 was doing, and so he put it away, a climb 0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:21.000 back down out of the tree and left. He walked 0:47:21.040 --> 0:47:25.680 towards the question, Yeah, why does it matter what's that 0:47:26.000 --> 0:47:30.640 if he reached because if he reached completion, then he 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:34.040 would have listened DNA evidence at the scene, which nobody 0:47:35.040 --> 0:47:39.759 collected anything at that treanch in a tree like next 0:47:39.840 --> 0:47:42.439 to a window on the other side of the house. Yeah, 0:47:42.800 --> 0:47:45.759 well it was sudden and Mark Ferman uh and there 0:47:45.880 --> 0:47:47.680 there was one of the guy have an old childhood 0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:52.680 classmate of Michael's name, Andy Pugh LF but yeah by Andy. Yeah, 0:47:52.719 --> 0:47:56.360 Andy re established contact with and with Michael, and Michael 0:47:56.440 --> 0:47:58.759 was thinking like, you know, hey, let's let's start hanging out. 0:47:58.880 --> 0:48:00.719 You know, it's been too long with we should get 0:48:00.760 --> 0:48:02.279 to know each other again and all yeah, the YadA, 0:48:02.280 --> 0:48:04.480 and Andy said, look, you know, I really have to 0:48:04.600 --> 0:48:07.440 know what's what really happened with Martha before I can 0:48:07.520 --> 0:48:09.759 really in good conscience to do this. And and so 0:48:09.920 --> 0:48:13.560 Michael told him this story. This was back about I think, 0:48:13.760 --> 0:48:15.359 And it turns out the guy was still a prep 0:48:15.400 --> 0:48:19.239 school jerk. Yeah, and Andy, Andy Pew. When he heard 0:48:19.280 --> 0:48:21.480 about the climbing the tree, he assumed it was the 0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:25.040 pine tree underneath which the body had been done. Okay, 0:48:25.040 --> 0:48:27.319 because well, for one thing, I mean, all the kids 0:48:27.360 --> 0:48:29.200 in the neighborhood climbed that tree. It was a big 0:48:29.280 --> 0:48:32.040 tree with a big, big, strong, well space branches, and 0:48:32.040 --> 0:48:34.080 it was a great climbing tree, but it was a 0:48:34.200 --> 0:48:36.719 hundred and sixty ft away from the Moxley house. So 0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:39.200 you can't exactly climb that tree and toss pebbles at 0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:41.920 Martha's window. That's not a good spine tree. And it's 0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:44.040 also on the wrong side of the house. And so 0:48:44.440 --> 0:48:47.800 the tree evening. Yeah, okay, so it's kind of just 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:51.000 like Ferman is just like dragging his name through the 0:48:51.040 --> 0:48:52.960 mudel a little bit by saying like and he reached 0:48:53.080 --> 0:48:55.480 orgasm and and and and and got it all over 0:48:55.520 --> 0:48:58.960 the body, look at look at this guy, Yeah exactly. 0:48:59.120 --> 0:49:02.279 And well, and what what he was saying is that 0:49:03.160 --> 0:49:07.960 Michael changed his story in because at that time DNA 0:49:08.160 --> 0:49:11.960 evidence was becoming a thing. Yeah, so he was trying 0:49:12.000 --> 0:49:14.200 to explain We're trying to explain away the presence of 0:49:14.239 --> 0:49:16.320 his semen. But I don't think there was seen on 0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:22.200 the body. No, there wasn't. Great, just wanted to clear quick. Yeah, 0:49:22.560 --> 0:49:26.759 but you know, interestingly, at the trial in two thousand two, 0:49:26.800 --> 0:49:29.880 the prosecution said that there was yet, but it was lost. 0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:32.640 Let me guess it was lost. Well, I don't. I 0:49:32.800 --> 0:49:34.720 haven't seen any evidence that there ever was any semen 0:49:34.760 --> 0:49:37.400 that was even collected. Yeah, you would think that if 0:49:37.440 --> 0:49:40.800 they had collected it, they would have gone ahead and 0:49:40.920 --> 0:49:44.680 had it run and just marched into court and said, 0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:48.120 printed up the results on a giant placard and said 0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:51.240 guess who. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean they could definitely, 0:49:51.360 --> 0:49:53.400 even before the advent of DNA, they could still get 0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:56.160 all kinds of information out of that stuff. Bodily fluid. 0:49:56.200 --> 0:49:58.080 You can get blood type and other stuff. You know 0:49:58.680 --> 0:50:01.560 that you're calling it the advent to DNA. Yeah whatever, 0:50:01.680 --> 0:50:08.360 But testing, Yeah, I guess the testing asking't been around 0:50:08.360 --> 0:50:12.760 for at least several hundred years at least. Yeah. Okay, 0:50:12.840 --> 0:50:16.239 So so anyway, that but that's that's Burman's theory of 0:50:16.360 --> 0:50:19.440 it is that is that that's what that's why he 0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:24.319 made up this story in and so suspicion. Michael had 0:50:24.400 --> 0:50:27.560 never been a suspect in this case, and suddenly suspicion 0:50:27.640 --> 0:50:30.760 shifted to him because he admitted to being a peeping 0:50:30.800 --> 0:50:35.600 tom Bessie because he there was no trying. It really looked. 0:50:35.800 --> 0:50:37.600 And when I first heard this story, and I I 0:50:37.719 --> 0:50:39.920 heard that tale about about the whole thing, in the 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:43.359 tree and everything. I thought, that's he's guilty as sin. 0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:46.760 He's obviously trying to explain away the presence of DNA, 0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:50.279 and so he actually had an explanation for it. He 0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:52.120 had actually talked about this, like I said to NDP, 0:50:52.320 --> 0:50:54.840 I think in the mid eighties, and he asked, I 0:50:54.920 --> 0:50:57.560 had another guy named Michael, Michael Meredith who was the 0:50:57.600 --> 0:50:59.480 guy that he had been. Michael, by the way, not 0:50:59.680 --> 0:51:01.920 too long after the murder was shipped off to the 0:51:02.000 --> 0:51:05.759 school for troubled children called Elon. It's in Maine, and 0:51:06.440 --> 0:51:08.800 there they had this for brutal regiment where they you know, 0:51:08.880 --> 0:51:11.000 they didn't beat people and got in their faces and 0:51:11.040 --> 0:51:13.759 everything for kids that had drug and alcohol problems. The 0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:17.040 boot camp situation kind of yeah, Bootcamp, except like even 0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:21.400 more brutal. Well, it was the tough love was bloody 0:51:21.440 --> 0:51:25.680 your nose. Yeah. And so in nine seven, Michael Meredith 0:51:25.800 --> 0:51:30.960 was living temporarily with Michael Scagell because they were working 0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:33.719 on they're working on the possibility of like the sort 0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:36.480 of tell all book about about Elon and schools like 0:51:36.640 --> 0:51:39.640 Elan and a little scandal but not that and and 0:51:39.960 --> 0:51:43.560 so at that point he told Michael Meredith that story also, 0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:46.560 which don't ask me why it's not a story I 0:51:46.600 --> 0:51:50.680 would be telling anybody. Uh yeah, no, yeah, no, yeah. 0:51:50.920 --> 0:51:53.440 And also rf K Jr. Says he told him that 0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:56.800 story back in the early eighties. So you know, again, Michael, 0:51:56.920 --> 0:51:58.600 Michael maybe talks a little bit too much. I was 0:51:58.600 --> 0:52:01.879 gonna say, he may just have a very poor filter. Yeah, 0:52:02.000 --> 0:52:03.919 it sounds like he doesn't have very good filter. Yeah, 0:52:03.920 --> 0:52:06.719 I know guys that tell you things and you're like, what, 0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:13.719 why don't don't ever tell anybody that again. Alternately, you know, 0:52:13.840 --> 0:52:17.520 somebody did say to him. Those are situations where they said, well, 0:52:17.920 --> 0:52:20.200 what really happened with the home? Martha Moxleer, like you 0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:25.200 you know something more, don't you? And he said, yeah, okay, yes, 0:52:25.520 --> 0:52:28.800 I you know this is actually what happened. I was 0:52:28.840 --> 0:52:31.920 trying to protect myself. You know, I was seventeen, seventeen, 0:52:33.560 --> 0:52:36.480 I was fifteen. You know, I didn't know better. I 0:52:36.560 --> 0:52:38.080 thought I was going to get in huge trouble for 0:52:38.160 --> 0:52:44.560 being this peeping tom. You know, he'd have been serious trouble. 0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:48.320 But so I'm sure that you know, in his fifteen 0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:50.719 year old mind, it was better to just lie than 0:52:50.840 --> 0:52:54.000 tell the truth. And you know, again. Later he realized, like, 0:52:55.080 --> 0:52:57.399 all right, I'll just you know, I've told enough people. 0:52:57.960 --> 0:53:00.239 I can say, hey, I had this problem when I 0:53:00.320 --> 0:53:03.080 was child and it's better now, and that's fine. Yeah. 0:53:03.640 --> 0:53:06.040 I So I don't think there's all that suspicious that 0:53:06.160 --> 0:53:09.160 he lied and then that the day after the murder. Yeah, 0:53:09.200 --> 0:53:11.320 I don't think it is. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't 0:53:11.320 --> 0:53:13.200 be I wouldn't be telling that story, but I just 0:53:13.239 --> 0:53:16.760 wouldn't have changed my story later. Yeah, not really. Should 0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:20.320 we get into theories here, yeah, okay, and yeah, I 0:53:20.400 --> 0:53:24.239 think I think we've we've got the whole thing laid out. Yeah. 0:53:25.440 --> 0:53:28.319 So there's a lot of suspects here. First off, of course, 0:53:28.360 --> 0:53:33.000 the random transient theory, which is silly. Yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah, because, 0:53:33.040 --> 0:53:35.759 as I said, Martha was found with the panties rolled down, um, 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:39.279 which indicates that the attack it was somebody that she knew. 0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:41.400 That's what That's certainly the inference that the police and 0:53:41.760 --> 0:53:44.520 drew from this. And so there I was stranger in 0:53:44.600 --> 0:53:47.040 the dark night, dark cold night. You're gonna just roll 0:53:47.120 --> 0:53:50.800 that pulling your pants and rolled in your So the 0:53:50.920 --> 0:53:53.480 one thing that Okay, I was joking when I was 0:53:53.480 --> 0:53:58.320 saying this my favorite theory, but I don't necessarily agree 0:53:58.560 --> 0:54:03.719 with the had to be somebody that she knew. I mean, 0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:08.200 it could very well have been a threat that was 0:54:08.239 --> 0:54:10.479 going to lead to a sexual assault. I mean, somebody 0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:12.640 could have had a knife to her throat and said 0:54:13.040 --> 0:54:15.359 you pulled down your pants and you pull down your 0:54:15.440 --> 0:54:19.040 underwear or I'm gonna slit your throat. Okay, but yeah, 0:54:19.400 --> 0:54:23.200 question if somebody had a knife to her, why beat 0:54:23.280 --> 0:54:25.239 her with the golf club and stab her with the 0:54:25.280 --> 0:54:28.000 golf club? Why not just kill her with the knife. 0:54:28.440 --> 0:54:30.600 Maybe they had the golf club across her neck, I 0:54:30.719 --> 0:54:34.280 don't know, choking her saying I will choke the life 0:54:34.320 --> 0:54:37.000 out of you if you don't pull your pants down. 0:54:37.200 --> 0:54:40.160 Seems like there would be some markings there. I don't know. 0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:43.080 I mean, I'm just saying that. Well, I mean, I 0:54:43.280 --> 0:54:47.759 don't think that it is so outlandish as the both 0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:50.600 of you do. Well, there's an alternative theory, which, of course, 0:54:51.560 --> 0:54:53.719 she got whacked once on the head, which is enough 0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:57.160 to know disorient, dis orient or maybe even kao her 0:54:57.200 --> 0:54:59.479 pretty good. And then her pants and panties get pulled 0:54:59.520 --> 0:55:01.839 down and then and then a more brutal beating takes 0:55:01.880 --> 0:55:05.160 place after that, because something happens, right, yeah, yeah, So 0:55:05.320 --> 0:55:07.239 even though I kind of suspect it was some of 0:55:07.360 --> 0:55:09.800 issue knew, you know, I got I gotta say it. 0:55:09.920 --> 0:55:12.880 It is possible. Well, and and I will fully admit 0:55:13.000 --> 0:55:16.439 that a random trans you just happening to wander into 0:55:16.520 --> 0:55:20.400 this gated community and not be seen by anybody and 0:55:20.520 --> 0:55:23.560 not raising any alarms. I find that very suspicious. I 0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:26.359 don't think that it probably happened, But I also can't 0:55:26.400 --> 0:55:29.120 say that this evidence of it couldn't have been. I 0:55:29.200 --> 0:55:32.239 don't say, I just don't agree with it. Yeah. But 0:55:32.719 --> 0:55:34.480 the other the other reason is there's so many other 0:55:34.520 --> 0:55:39.399 good suspects there. They're really okay, let's let's have one. Okay. 0:55:39.400 --> 0:55:43.359 Our next guy, Franz Vatine, who I think was born 0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:45.919 in Yugoslavia, had served in the German Army in World 0:55:45.960 --> 0:55:49.719 War Two and all around weirdoh yeah, kind of a 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:51.960 strange guy. He lived in a basement apartment. He was 0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:54.320 a gardener, this cakeless gardener. He lived in an apartment 0:55:54.360 --> 0:55:57.560 in the basement and h his wife at that on 0:55:57.680 --> 0:56:01.239 that weekend was away, so just him in the apartment. 0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:03.160 So and he had he had an exit from the 0:56:03.239 --> 0:56:05.680 house that would have allowed him to get out murder 0:56:05.760 --> 0:56:10.480 Martha come back undetected. It doesn't doesn't prove anything, but 0:56:11.000 --> 0:56:13.680 the scate kids said that sometimes dry He would tell 0:56:13.760 --> 0:56:16.440 them really strange stories from World War Two about how 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:18.360 they would you know, that he and the other German 0:56:18.440 --> 0:56:21.520 soldiers would go around raping women and stuff, which is 0:56:21.680 --> 0:56:23.200 kind of a strange thing to be saying to a 0:56:23.239 --> 0:56:28.000 bunch of teenage kids. Teenage dudes. Though, Yeah, well but 0:56:28.120 --> 0:56:33.160 you got you also remember that he he probably was 0:56:33.440 --> 0:56:35.960 messed with a lot by the kids. They probably made 0:56:36.000 --> 0:56:38.040 fun of him, and they probably screwed with him a lot. 0:56:38.520 --> 0:56:41.880 He if he was in the war, it wasn't uncommon 0:56:41.960 --> 0:56:44.920 for guys to shell shock, to have shell shocks, so 0:56:45.040 --> 0:56:47.960 he's got some issues because of that. So he's just like, 0:56:48.480 --> 0:56:51.840 you know what, I think it's okay to tell you 0:56:51.920 --> 0:56:55.200 a little different word. I was gonna use a little 0:56:55.280 --> 0:56:57.440 jerks who were screwed with me all the time a 0:56:57.560 --> 0:57:00.120 story that I know is gonna really screw you up 0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:03.640 a little bit and get you back. Maybe I don't know. 0:57:03.960 --> 0:57:06.719 I mean again, this is this is right up there 0:57:06.880 --> 0:57:11.200 with with Mr. Ed as a reasoning. Yeah, he's well 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:15.960 and well, the only other thing that makes him look 0:57:16.160 --> 0:57:19.360 even possibly good is um No, there were no there 0:57:19.360 --> 0:57:22.000 were diary entries in Martha's In Martha's diary, don't mention. 0:57:22.160 --> 0:57:25.000 I didn't mention Martha had a diary. No, you brought 0:57:25.040 --> 0:57:27.680 this up yet Martha had a diary. Yeah, and eventually 0:57:27.720 --> 0:57:30.800 wound up in the hands of the prosecution. But there 0:57:30.840 --> 0:57:33.640 were entries in their relating to France. He was referred 0:57:33.640 --> 0:57:36.360 to as Frank in there, and she talked about how 0:57:36.520 --> 0:57:40.200 she was really creeped out by Frank and and thought 0:57:40.280 --> 0:57:45.160 he was really a scary guy. And understandably afterwards, before well, 0:57:45.320 --> 0:57:49.440 Dorothy Moxley started reading Martha's diary after the death. Let's 0:57:49.440 --> 0:57:51.400 see if there was any good information in there, obviously, 0:57:51.640 --> 0:57:54.360 and she asked some of some of Martha's friends, who 0:57:54.520 --> 0:57:57.480 is Frank because she seems to really be really afraid 0:57:57.520 --> 0:57:59.920 of Frank. I believe it was Sheila McGuire who had 0:58:00.040 --> 0:58:02.800 entified him as Franz Beatine. That was that what that 0:58:03.000 --> 0:58:06.520 that could only be Franz. It was Frank And apparently 0:58:07.080 --> 0:58:10.200 after the prosecution of the police took the diary and 0:58:10.320 --> 0:58:13.200 kept in an evidence for many years, Dorothy spent years 0:58:13.240 --> 0:58:15.160 lobbying to get it back. By the time she got 0:58:15.240 --> 0:58:17.720 it back, the pages relating to Frank had been removed. 0:58:19.440 --> 0:58:23.560 Yeah yeah, but Franz did. He did take a light 0:58:23.640 --> 0:58:26.040 detective test, which he passed, and so they dropped him 0:58:26.040 --> 0:58:30.840 as a suspect. Nazi of course he passed. Yeah, Suli 0:58:30.920 --> 0:58:33.960 didn't have sociopath I don't. I don't think he's a 0:58:34.000 --> 0:58:36.880 good for this. There's not really much of anything to 0:58:37.000 --> 0:58:39.280 tie him to this crime. So let's move on to 0:58:39.320 --> 0:58:43.080 our next suspect here, which is Ken Littleton to live 0:58:43.160 --> 0:58:47.000 in Tutor. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah he um. Well, there 0:58:47.080 --> 0:58:50.120 was again no physical evidence connecting Kenny to the crime 0:58:50.920 --> 0:58:54.640 at all, and no, not not nothing that connects anybody really. Uh. 0:58:55.240 --> 0:58:58.360 The thing about Kenny is he uh he lost his 0:58:58.480 --> 0:59:00.120 job with the Skegles a few months after of the 0:59:00.160 --> 0:59:02.480 murder because he was drunk and he crashed their car 0:59:02.760 --> 0:59:05.200 and left apparently left the accident scene. So he kind 0:59:05.200 --> 0:59:09.800 of got fired by Rookie, and so he after that 0:59:10.000 --> 0:59:11.640 he was sort of drifting around. He got a job 0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:15.400 as a bouncer and a bar up in and Providence 0:59:15.480 --> 0:59:18.120 or somewhere like that. It's weird that he went from 0:59:18.160 --> 0:59:21.600 working in a high class school and being a tutor 0:59:22.360 --> 0:59:25.920 to quite quickly not doing that kind of work, and 0:59:25.960 --> 0:59:28.160 I wonder if he's weird. I was wondering if he 0:59:28.200 --> 0:59:32.560 got blacklists because because the Skaks were like this guy. Now, 0:59:32.640 --> 0:59:36.240 the Skaks didn't blacklist him. Now what happened is he 0:59:36.400 --> 0:59:38.680 kept his job teaching. But then in the summer, while 0:59:39.120 --> 0:59:41.040 as a teacher, you know, you go he wanted to 0:59:41.320 --> 0:59:43.000 like I can't remember where if it was, it wasn't 0:59:43.040 --> 0:59:45.560 Fire Island, and I can't remember where it was. But yeah, 0:59:45.680 --> 0:59:48.080 but he he went to this beach community where he'd 0:59:48.120 --> 0:59:50.600 hung out the summer before and got a job as 0:59:50.600 --> 0:59:53.240 a bouncer in a bar and hung out and stuff. 0:59:54.120 --> 0:59:55.760 It was just kind of a summer job, kind of 0:59:55.840 --> 0:59:58.160 summer job, kind of daily But he went on a 0:59:58.200 --> 1:00:00.560 little crime way if you broke into some some houses 1:00:00.600 --> 1:00:04.120 and businesses and stall stuff. He was he was. He 1:00:04.320 --> 1:00:07.240 broken the one woman's apartment, she had left the window 1:00:07.920 --> 1:00:10.640 window opened, He removed the screen, climbed in, and she 1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:14.280 woke up to find him lying naked on top of her. Yeah, 1:00:14.800 --> 1:00:16.560 he did a lot of stuff like that. He has 1:00:17.560 --> 1:00:21.920 described more time between that and the things had a 1:00:21.960 --> 1:00:24.960 bit of a mental breakdown. Yeah, his behavior was his 1:00:25.080 --> 1:00:28.200 behavior was strange. And and so what happened is that 1:00:28.600 --> 1:00:32.160 what eventually the police found out about these crimes. The 1:00:32.200 --> 1:00:34.480 Greenwich police did, and so they they rated about to 1:00:34.520 --> 1:00:36.400 the school that he worked at, and so immediately got 1:00:36.520 --> 1:00:40.480 fired and okay, so now he gets blacklisted. Okay, and 1:00:40.520 --> 1:00:42.960 didn't well he didn't get blacklisted then, but then he 1:00:43.040 --> 1:00:46.800 got a job teaching at another school and yeah, and 1:00:46.920 --> 1:00:49.200 then and then the police went immediately went down there 1:00:49.240 --> 1:00:51.520 and rated him out again. So he got fired again. 1:00:51.800 --> 1:00:53.960 And so yeah, things kind we're kind of going downhill 1:00:54.040 --> 1:00:56.240 for Ken. Yeah, it stayed like the that. I'm happy 1:00:56.280 --> 1:00:58.919 that the Internet exists so that like the police don't 1:00:58.960 --> 1:01:03.760 have to actually track Pool anymore, that there's like a database. Hey, 1:01:04.280 --> 1:01:06.400 don't hire this person because they like to break in 1:01:06.520 --> 1:01:09.080 and lay naked on strangers. Because sadly, there was a 1:01:09.160 --> 1:01:11.200 time where there was a lot of departments that just 1:01:11.360 --> 1:01:14.800 were overworked and they couldn't do it. Yeah. Another another 1:01:14.880 --> 1:01:18.320 odd thing that happened is that Tommy went into Kid's 1:01:18.520 --> 1:01:21.600 room in the house. Canada's sitting there watching the French Connection. 1:01:21.760 --> 1:01:24.760 Remember that movie Gene. Yeah, back in those days, I 1:01:24.760 --> 1:01:26.000 don't know if they even still do this, because I 1:01:26.040 --> 1:01:28.040 don't watch TV anymore, but the networks in those days 1:01:28.080 --> 1:01:31.360 would run theatrical release movies, you know, like say nine 1:01:31.400 --> 1:01:35.720 to eleven or whatever. Yeah, they don't do that anyh Yeah, 1:01:35.840 --> 1:01:37.360 and so, but they used to do it back in 1:01:37.440 --> 1:01:40.200 those days. So The French Connection was showing on TV, 1:01:40.440 --> 1:01:43.000 and so Tommy went into his room at about ten 1:01:43.080 --> 1:01:45.720 fifteen and started watching the movie because there's just a big, huge, 1:01:45.760 --> 1:01:48.400 famous chase scene in the movie, and so he stayed 1:01:48.440 --> 1:01:51.000 for the through the end of the whole chase scene. 1:01:51.360 --> 1:01:54.160 So that sort of maybe it kind of kind of 1:01:54.240 --> 1:01:58.680 makes Tommy look a little better as far as because 1:01:58.800 --> 1:02:01.160 I mean Tommy, because he do you have a had 1:02:01.200 --> 1:02:03.240 time to murder Martha and then get all cleaned up 1:02:03.240 --> 1:02:04.680 and then go in there and watch TV with Can. 1:02:04.800 --> 1:02:07.720 Well we'll talk about that, but so he so Tommy 1:02:07.840 --> 1:02:11.880 was able to provide an alibi for Ken each other. 1:02:12.200 --> 1:02:14.680 They kind of allied by each other. But one of 1:02:14.720 --> 1:02:16.560 the things that Tommy noticed that it was kind of 1:02:16.640 --> 1:02:18.800 strange is he said it was warm in the room, 1:02:19.320 --> 1:02:21.320 and yet the whole time that he was there watching 1:02:21.320 --> 1:02:23.600 The Fresh Connection, Kenny was covered with a blanket from 1:02:23.640 --> 1:02:25.680 head to toe. I mean not not his face, but 1:02:25.760 --> 1:02:27.560 I mean from his from the bottom of his chin 1:02:27.680 --> 1:02:29.840 all the way. He was covered like he was laying 1:02:29.880 --> 1:02:31.680 in bed. Now he was now he was sitting in 1:02:31.680 --> 1:02:35.640 a chair, but sing a recliner or something like that. 1:02:35.720 --> 1:02:38.200 But he was covered with a blanket. Tommy thought that 1:02:38.280 --> 1:02:41.480 was a little strange. But you know what, I have 1:02:41.640 --> 1:02:45.360 laid around and watched TV, and it is very easy 1:02:45.560 --> 1:02:49.120 to get a bit of a chill. It's October. Yes, 1:02:49.240 --> 1:02:52.320 the heat is on, but it's a little little bit 1:02:52.400 --> 1:02:54.280 of a chill, and I'm just gonna throw a blanket on. 1:02:54.480 --> 1:02:57.120 There's a conversation. I have actually a lot with my 1:02:57.280 --> 1:03:02.000 boss because we share an office and he his job 1:03:02.120 --> 1:03:04.640 is very like get up and go right. He gets up, 1:03:04.720 --> 1:03:06.800 He's often like around and then he comes back into 1:03:06.840 --> 1:03:09.320 the office, whereas I'm sitting at my desk the whole time, 1:03:10.120 --> 1:03:12.880 and I'll have the heat on, yeah, and he comes 1:03:12.920 --> 1:03:15.200 in and he's like it is boiling, and here, what 1:03:15.360 --> 1:03:18.000 are you doing? And I can also imagine that it's 1:03:18.040 --> 1:03:20.240 that sort of situation that you know, Tommy has been out, 1:03:20.760 --> 1:03:24.800 he's been drinking back. You know, He's like, well, it's 1:03:24.840 --> 1:03:27.280 warm in this room and Ken's been sitting in there 1:03:27.320 --> 1:03:29.920 and he's like, it is cold. I'm gonna put a 1:03:29.960 --> 1:03:33.520 blanket on. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily prove much of anything. Well, 1:03:33.560 --> 1:03:36.760 there's also a little weird and there's also the there 1:03:36.920 --> 1:03:44.200 is a huge body temperature difference perception of teenagers to 1:03:44.440 --> 1:03:48.840 the rest of the adult world. Metabolis been slowing it 1:03:48.880 --> 1:03:51.000 out a little bit. Yeah, you know, I see, I see, 1:03:51.360 --> 1:03:54.400 you know, teenagers this time of year running around it's 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:58.520 sixty degrees and they're a pair of basketball shorts and 1:03:58.800 --> 1:04:01.760 that's it. And then like, man, it is so hot. 1:04:02.680 --> 1:04:06.440 What But also again, you know, again, I presume that 1:04:06.720 --> 1:04:09.960 Ken knew to his job, hadn't been drinking nearly as 1:04:10.040 --> 1:04:12.160 much as the rest of the kids. Probably not right. 1:04:12.240 --> 1:04:15.440 He was trying to take responsibility. So if Tommy had 1:04:15.480 --> 1:04:17.400 been drinking the whole night, or had been making out 1:04:17.440 --> 1:04:22.600 with a girl and came back in, yeah yeah, uh 1:04:22.960 --> 1:04:25.600 so yeah, so can's uh he's he seems to have 1:04:25.640 --> 1:04:28.000 been pretty much cleared. I think there was there was 1:04:28.240 --> 1:04:31.320 some discussion that among police and everybody that he maybe 1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:35.240 it was a serial killer dumb well yeah, I mean 1:04:35.960 --> 1:04:40.600 not overall, just people like like some some some women 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:42.760 got blood into death in various places that were not 1:04:42.880 --> 1:04:45.520 far from places that he was living. But that doesn't 1:04:45.560 --> 1:04:49.440 necessarily mean much. I say, women have been blooded to 1:04:49.520 --> 1:04:52.400 death not far away from places that you've lived. And 1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:54.600 yet as far as I'm aware, it wasn't, you know, 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:57.560 I don't think it was. And that guy who's serving time, 1:04:58.520 --> 1:05:02.840 he seems to have probably been the culprits likely. Well, 1:05:02.920 --> 1:05:04.920 I think Kenny has been kind of cleared because in 1:05:06.160 --> 1:05:10.160 a grand jury, and that in Connecticut law, you can 1:05:10.200 --> 1:05:12.200 have what's called a grand jury of one where you 1:05:12.400 --> 1:05:15.360 basically the judge, there's a one judge who was the jury. 1:05:15.800 --> 1:05:18.520 He decides that there's probable cause, and so it's really 1:05:18.560 --> 1:05:23.000 worth you know, indicting somebody. And so they brought Kenny 1:05:23.040 --> 1:05:25.320 Littleton in. But under Connecticut law, he had to be 1:05:25.440 --> 1:05:29.840 immunized so he could confess to killing Martha, and there 1:05:29.840 --> 1:05:31.439 would not have been a thing they could do because 1:05:31.480 --> 1:05:34.240 as long as he told the truth, you know about whatever, 1:05:35.000 --> 1:05:37.360 and I as you have to assume that they asked 1:05:37.760 --> 1:05:43.800 Kenny then oh, immunity, Sorry, he's got to get a shot. Yeah, judicially, yeah, 1:05:44.160 --> 1:05:48.120 he uh so, presumably they asked him if he had 1:05:48.160 --> 1:05:51.600 murdered Martha, and presumably Kenny said no, of course he 1:05:51.600 --> 1:05:54.400 could have lied. I guess you know, I'm saying, you're 1:05:54.960 --> 1:05:57.760 telling a guy he has immunity and that guy believing 1:05:57.800 --> 1:06:00.880 it can be very two different things. I've seen t s. I. 1:06:01.400 --> 1:06:05.080 I know what's up. I watched Law and Order. I know. Yeah, 1:06:05.440 --> 1:06:08.080 let's say that Kenny. Let's say that Kenny really did 1:06:08.160 --> 1:06:11.360 do it, but he wanted to lie about it. But 1:06:11.520 --> 1:06:14.160 at this time, this is like hard times for Kenny. 1:06:14.200 --> 1:06:16.680 He's had a rough life, right, He's been sort of 1:06:16.760 --> 1:06:18.439 like in a floating from job to job, in place 1:06:18.520 --> 1:06:21.320 to place. I suppose he really did did it. You 1:06:21.360 --> 1:06:22.600 know what I would do if I had been Ken, 1:06:22.800 --> 1:06:24.680 I would have gotten the cakeles and I would have said, Hey, 1:06:25.560 --> 1:06:28.480 tell you what, if you give me a suitcase full 1:06:28.520 --> 1:06:30.919 of cash, I'll go into that jury room, the grand 1:06:31.000 --> 1:06:33.440 jury room, and I will tell them that I murdered 1:06:33.480 --> 1:06:36.040 Martha Moxley and that'll be the end of it for 1:06:36.120 --> 1:06:38.840 all of you. Yeah, and just make sure it's cash 1:06:39.000 --> 1:06:43.560 in twenties. Uh yeah, and just do that well. And 1:06:43.880 --> 1:06:46.720 I'm amazed. I mean, you say that with a bit 1:06:46.800 --> 1:06:50.439 of humor, but I'm amazed. That there's always this talk 1:06:50.560 --> 1:06:53.440 of Kennedy families having all this money and they can 1:06:53.560 --> 1:06:57.560 buy whatever they need. And I'm amazed that nobody has 1:06:58.320 --> 1:07:02.200 walked up and said it was me having been paid 1:07:02.680 --> 1:07:07.800 for said testimony. I mean, I'm not trying to cast 1:07:07.840 --> 1:07:10.320 anything negative against him. It's just that there's you know, 1:07:10.520 --> 1:07:13.080 you've got a lot of money. You can just have 1:07:13.200 --> 1:07:15.240 a you can convince a guy that for X amount 1:07:15.240 --> 1:07:17.720 of money, you take the fall. Dude. Well, you know, 1:07:17.840 --> 1:07:20.200 especially you know, in the case of Kenny, suppose Kenny 1:07:20.280 --> 1:07:22.960 didn't do it, they still you know, you kind of 1:07:23.160 --> 1:07:25.840 suppose somebody in the Skag family did do it. And 1:07:25.960 --> 1:07:28.480 they're rich, and they're of course all powerful and everything, 1:07:28.720 --> 1:07:31.400 and wouldn't they wouldn't they have offered him like a 1:07:31.520 --> 1:07:35.400 suitcase full of cash in order to do you know, 1:07:35.600 --> 1:07:37.960 you think they would have, you know, well, even today, 1:07:38.000 --> 1:07:39.480 I mean, if they have all this money in power. 1:07:39.520 --> 1:07:42.000 Of course, the Skates are not wealthy anymore unfortunately, but 1:07:43.160 --> 1:07:44.720 you know, if they had all this money in power, 1:07:44.760 --> 1:07:47.080 they could they could give somebody a suitcase for the 1:07:47.160 --> 1:07:49.640 cash to confess to the crime. And since somebody has 1:07:49.640 --> 1:07:52.360 already been convicted of the crime, well good luck getting 1:07:52.360 --> 1:07:57.240 a commission of somebody else, right, Yeah, okay, Tommy's skeg 1:07:58.360 --> 1:08:03.480 well again a favorite for a long time. He um, well, 1:08:03.560 --> 1:08:06.880 let's see last to see Martha alive. Tommy had a 1:08:06.920 --> 1:08:09.320 head injury when he was young, very young, and that 1:08:09.440 --> 1:08:11.640 caused a change in his behavior when he was prone 1:08:11.640 --> 1:08:14.160 to violent outbursts. I mean very violent where he had 1:08:14.160 --> 1:08:17.880 to be physically restrained and he would damage things, break things, 1:08:18.040 --> 1:08:21.320 and um did he but that seems like the sort 1:08:21.360 --> 1:08:23.479 of thing that takes hours to calm down from right, 1:08:23.680 --> 1:08:27.600 usually not necessarily, but I think it was either his 1:08:27.680 --> 1:08:29.960 sister or his brother, or maybe it was Michael. He 1:08:30.040 --> 1:08:33.040 said that he was like like milk boiling out of stove. 1:08:33.160 --> 1:08:36.200 Every seen everything ever boiled milk, You know how it 1:08:36.240 --> 1:08:39.080 looks like totally calm, and then the next second that's 1:08:39.080 --> 1:08:40.640 just said boost, It's up over the sides of the 1:08:40.680 --> 1:08:42.960 pan and all of them all. Yeah, he said that 1:08:43.040 --> 1:08:45.759 was he was like that. So it took nothing, apparently 1:08:45.840 --> 1:08:49.519 to set him off. And also ken Lyttleton was not 1:08:49.800 --> 1:08:53.400 sure afterwards. He he thought that perhaps Tommy had changed 1:08:53.439 --> 1:08:56.439 his clothes. He couldn't really remember. Yes, said something you'd 1:08:56.439 --> 1:08:59.400 pay attention to unless it was you went from a 1:08:59.520 --> 1:09:01.599 really nice sound fit to a crappy one, or from 1:09:01.640 --> 1:09:03.680 a crappy one to a really nice just changing your 1:09:03.760 --> 1:09:09.040 shirt or your jeans from one fair jeans to another. Yeah, 1:09:09.080 --> 1:09:12.320 it's not really something you'd note. Yeah, No, not really. Uh, 1:09:12.479 --> 1:09:13.800 you know, I don't know if there was a dress 1:09:13.840 --> 1:09:16.080 code at the bell Haven Club. I'm sure there was. 1:09:16.200 --> 1:09:18.760 There probably was, if you want to come back and 1:09:18.920 --> 1:09:20.720 change out of your your slacks and your tie and 1:09:20.760 --> 1:09:22.760 it into something a little more casually. Was Tommy a 1:09:22.840 --> 1:09:27.040 thirty two inch waste? Tommy was He was pretty athletic. 1:09:27.120 --> 1:09:29.559 He was not a you were thinking of the thirty 1:09:29.600 --> 1:09:32.400 six inch waiste jeans. Yeah, Now, I don't think Tommy 1:09:32.439 --> 1:09:34.639 was nearly that big. Yeah, I mean he was seventeen 1:09:34.720 --> 1:09:37.240 years old. You know you're usually skinny at that age, right, 1:09:37.800 --> 1:09:40.519 So yeah, I'm sure it wasn't Tommy. But one of 1:09:40.600 --> 1:09:43.479 the other reasons. I mean, of course he lied about 1:09:43.560 --> 1:09:46.040 the whole book report thing. He was not in bed, 1:09:47.640 --> 1:09:49.880 but and that's so for that and many other reasons. 1:09:49.920 --> 1:09:52.120 But they spent a lot of and yeah, he failed 1:09:52.160 --> 1:09:54.480 his first well I didn't really fail his first polygraph. 1:09:54.560 --> 1:09:57.639 It was inconclusive. Well, so here's a question. I guess right. 1:09:57.920 --> 1:10:01.680 One of the big things from the um allegations was 1:10:01.800 --> 1:10:06.320 that when Ken did his bed check at five, Tommy 1:10:06.439 --> 1:10:09.080 wasn't in his bed, but wasn't that because he was 1:10:09.160 --> 1:10:12.519 in Ken's room with Ken watching a video TV room. 1:10:12.640 --> 1:10:14.479 He didn't, he didn't go into Ken's room to watch 1:10:14.560 --> 1:10:16.240 the door. He was in the TV room, but he 1:10:16.360 --> 1:10:19.800 was with Ken when Ken was reportedly doing this bed chack. No, no, 1:10:19.960 --> 1:10:23.840 he was not. It's after. It was after the bed check. 1:10:23.880 --> 1:10:28.439 It was like quarter after he started watching the movie. Yeah, yeah, 1:10:28.479 --> 1:10:30.479 and well Ken was already watching the movie and then 1:10:30.600 --> 1:10:32.479 Tommy just sort of wandered in and sat down and 1:10:32.520 --> 1:10:36.759 watched it with Yeah, you know, a getting no physical evidence, 1:10:36.920 --> 1:10:38.560 I mean, one of the things that would indicate to 1:10:38.720 --> 1:10:40.920 me that maybe it was Tommy is that, of course, 1:10:40.960 --> 1:10:43.040 after there's that whole thing about the roll down panties, 1:10:43.479 --> 1:10:46.960 Tommy was a real ladies man. He was larting. Yeah, yeah, 1:10:47.120 --> 1:10:50.960 and uh, you know, he definitely of all of our suspects, 1:10:51.160 --> 1:10:54.519 Martha is excuse me, Tommy is the most likely to 1:10:54.680 --> 1:10:57.800 roll pull out her pants for him. So I don't 1:10:57.840 --> 1:11:01.519 want to get too graphic here, but correct me if 1:11:01.600 --> 1:11:05.960 I'm wrong, Joe, I swear I remember there was some 1:11:06.400 --> 1:11:11.040 discussion of the use of hands in a sexual manner 1:11:11.640 --> 1:11:15.240 from one or both of Martha and Tommy at sometime. 1:11:15.400 --> 1:11:18.000 Is that correct? Yeah? There was they're playing with each other. 1:11:18.680 --> 1:11:24.680 H yeah, that's that story changed in summer. Okay, So 1:11:24.760 --> 1:11:31.040 I'm not misremembering because that I'm kind of I'm kind 1:11:31.040 --> 1:11:32.720 of looking at this in two ways. I'm looking at 1:11:32.760 --> 1:11:35.679 Tommy as a suspect up until he changed his story, 1:11:36.439 --> 1:11:38.880 and then Tommy as a suspect after he changes. So 1:11:38.960 --> 1:11:41.840 let's let's see. Okay, so we've done before he changed 1:11:41.920 --> 1:11:44.760 his story. Yeah, but the before is he had an 1:11:44.760 --> 1:11:48.439 inclusive It's kind of a uh. His polygraph results were 1:11:48.479 --> 1:11:50.800 never really all that conclusive, you know, one way or 1:11:50.880 --> 1:11:53.360 the other. And you know, there were reasons for the 1:11:53.400 --> 1:11:57.280 police to be suspicious, but obviously they couldn't get an indictment. 1:11:57.360 --> 1:12:00.679 The prosecutor refused to sign an indictment of him because, 1:12:00.760 --> 1:12:02.400 I mean, they just didn't have any evidence. The evidence 1:12:02.479 --> 1:12:04.960 was he was the last person to see her alive, 1:12:05.600 --> 1:12:08.719 and he had had some psychiatric issues, some violent outbursts. 1:12:08.720 --> 1:12:12.000 I mean, so what doesn't mean it doesn't prove anything, right, 1:12:12.479 --> 1:12:15.479 That didn't stop him from being a suspect. No, not 1:12:15.600 --> 1:12:18.360 at all. But we'll come back to Tommy in a minute. Okay, 1:12:18.479 --> 1:12:22.280 let's talk about another suspect, Martha's brother, John Moxley. After 1:12:22.439 --> 1:12:24.680 he went and drove around a bit, he was outside 1:12:24.840 --> 1:12:28.439 searching and Julie Skeegle came out of the house and 1:12:28.560 --> 1:12:32.000 she was wanted to look too. That's them now. Julie 1:12:32.160 --> 1:12:36.479 is Michael's older sister. She was It's hard to keep track. 1:12:36.479 --> 1:12:39.400 There's a lot of names in here. Um, so John 1:12:39.680 --> 1:12:43.559 was He was actually polygraphed by the police. I think 1:12:43.600 --> 1:12:45.840 he passed, and so he was removed as a from 1:12:45.840 --> 1:12:48.160 the list of suspects. But one of I think it 1:12:48.240 --> 1:12:51.439 was Sheila, said that she was actually afraid of John 1:12:51.520 --> 1:12:54.160 Moxley and he was known for violence. He went after 1:12:54.240 --> 1:12:56.559 He was known to go after people with baseball bats 1:12:56.600 --> 1:12:59.559 a couple of times. Of course, he was a teenagers, seventeen. 1:12:59.640 --> 1:13:04.200 You know, I'm privilege. There's no repercussions to my actions. Yeah, 1:13:04.600 --> 1:13:07.559 possibly not. But when he was out with Julie, Julie 1:13:07.560 --> 1:13:09.600 didn't really remember this until much later, when she was 1:13:09.680 --> 1:13:19.000 hip she wanted her hypnosis. She suddenly remembers. Okay, remember something, yeah, yeah, 1:13:19.760 --> 1:13:21.880 remember me with it. He was kind of over over 1:13:22.000 --> 1:13:24.519 the scage place, kind of calling Martha's name, and he 1:13:24.600 --> 1:13:26.599 says to Julie, you know you should go. We're looking 1:13:26.680 --> 1:13:29.960 our lawn. And Julie was like why, I mean, she 1:13:30.040 --> 1:13:32.360 could see you're you're yelling her name. She'd be able 1:13:32.400 --> 1:13:34.479 to hear it from over there if she was over there, right, 1:13:34.640 --> 1:13:36.960 you know, And and he was like, he was kind 1:13:37.000 --> 1:13:38.800 of insistent, he really wanted to go over to the 1:13:38.880 --> 1:13:41.640 Moxley yard and look around. She thought it was kind 1:13:41.680 --> 1:13:46.120 of creepy and strange in retrospect. Uh. The next thing 1:13:46.200 --> 1:13:50.120 that happened is in that that that came out of hypnosis. Yeah, 1:13:50.360 --> 1:13:53.479 that was a recalled memory. And nobody can see this 1:13:53.600 --> 1:13:58.160 but us in the studio. Yeah, which I do through 1:13:58.240 --> 1:14:01.360 every episode because everything is air quote. But memory is 1:14:01.600 --> 1:14:04.280 Memory is a really tricky thing, and it can be 1:14:05.040 --> 1:14:08.480 It can be really seriously altered by just cheer repetition 1:14:08.560 --> 1:14:10.840 if nothing else. And that there's probably at least a 1:14:10.840 --> 1:14:13.240 few witnesses in this case who have had their memories altered. 1:14:14.240 --> 1:14:17.240 Every time you remember something, you're altering it, you're overwriting it, 1:14:17.400 --> 1:14:20.800 and that's a known fact. But what you're remembering is 1:14:20.800 --> 1:14:23.040 actually the last time that you're remembering nothing. Yeah, you 1:14:23.080 --> 1:14:25.920 don't actually remember that thing anyway. You're overwriting the file 1:14:26.000 --> 1:14:28.720 every time you access it. Yeah, so it gets it 1:14:28.760 --> 1:14:31.640 gets a little de great at every time. So but 1:14:31.800 --> 1:14:34.040 the next thing that happened is a friend of his 1:14:34.200 --> 1:14:36.840 came over that nine o'clock the morning of ten thirty one, 1:14:37.160 --> 1:14:39.280 and John was of course had been asleep in the 1:14:39.360 --> 1:14:41.679 TV room. But this is something that got the guys 1:14:41.880 --> 1:14:44.880 at Sutton Associates, you know, the private investigators, got them 1:14:44.960 --> 1:14:48.360 kind of interested in John is a suspect, and that 1:14:48.600 --> 1:14:51.120 is that he and his friend we're thinking, well, we 1:14:51.200 --> 1:14:53.800 gotta go out look for Martha. Martha's missing. So they 1:14:53.880 --> 1:14:55.439 had out the house, out of the house and the 1:14:55.479 --> 1:14:58.240 Moxle house, and then they head towards the back of 1:14:58.360 --> 1:15:01.000 the house, which would have take and them like right 1:15:01.080 --> 1:15:04.400 by the pine tree where Martha's body was. And this 1:15:04.560 --> 1:15:06.800 is something police will tell you is that if there's 1:15:06.800 --> 1:15:09.120 a search party for a body or for somebody who's missing, 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:11.679 then if a family member is part of that, they're 1:15:11.760 --> 1:15:14.400 part of organizing it or they're out participating with it. 1:15:14.800 --> 1:15:17.719 You want to watch them, because if they're the murderers, 1:15:17.800 --> 1:15:20.400 they're going to lead you straight to the body. And 1:15:20.840 --> 1:15:22.760 the reason being is they can't stand the idea of 1:15:22.800 --> 1:15:25.160 animals getting to the body and chewing it up and 1:15:25.200 --> 1:15:27.639 carrying it away or whatever. So that's always that's something 1:15:27.680 --> 1:15:29.519 you want to do, is watch those guys. And it 1:15:29.720 --> 1:15:33.080 looked like John was trying to lead his friend towards 1:15:33.200 --> 1:15:37.360 Martha's body and also maybe Julie the night before exactly 1:15:38.080 --> 1:15:40.040 because yeah, he wanted the body to be found, he 1:15:40.160 --> 1:15:41.759 just didn't want to be the one to find it himself. 1:15:41.960 --> 1:15:44.960 But again I'm not Oh yeah, there were also some 1:15:45.040 --> 1:15:47.080 potential but blood stains in the TV room on the 1:15:47.160 --> 1:15:49.120 table in there that were apparently cleaned up by the 1:15:49.200 --> 1:15:52.360 maid before the police could look at them. That's about 1:15:52.400 --> 1:15:54.720 it for the avidence against John Marxley. There's really not 1:15:54.920 --> 1:15:57.960 much there that that is really paper thin. It is 1:15:58.280 --> 1:16:00.479 it is, I think, so. Yeah. I mean some other 1:16:00.600 --> 1:16:02.960 questions right as to like how did he get the 1:16:03.240 --> 1:16:06.479 golf club, Well, I mean, like we said, they left 1:16:06.560 --> 1:16:09.760 him laying about, they were readily available. He would have 1:16:09.760 --> 1:16:13.160 had to gone over to the other house and get 1:16:13.240 --> 1:16:15.200 it and then brought it back it's not as tho 1:16:15.200 --> 1:16:18.320 it would be laying about the Mocksley property, right, Yeah, 1:16:18.520 --> 1:16:21.040 maybe not. But think about this neighborhood too, is it. 1:16:21.439 --> 1:16:23.720 It really wasn't much in the way of fences in 1:16:23.760 --> 1:16:26.080 the neighborhood and people all just sort of crossed each 1:16:26.080 --> 1:16:28.880 other's property all the time. It's it's much like you know, 1:16:29.000 --> 1:16:31.920 it drives me nuts. It's very It makes me think 1:16:32.000 --> 1:16:35.879 of my neighborhood, which is not nearly as ritzy or large. 1:16:37.320 --> 1:16:41.280 But understatement of the air, yes, but the kids in 1:16:41.360 --> 1:16:45.360 the neighborhood, uh, you know, they run through my yard, 1:16:45.479 --> 1:16:47.479 my front yard, and then they run across my neighbor's 1:16:47.520 --> 1:16:49.599 front yard, and then that neighbor's front yard, and then 1:16:49.640 --> 1:16:52.799 they veer onto the sidewalk, and then they veer across 1:16:52.880 --> 1:16:56.080 the street, and then they veer into somebody else's front yard, 1:16:56.439 --> 1:16:59.200 all of this at top speed. Yeah. But how old 1:16:59.240 --> 1:17:05.320 are they? Uh? Twelve to fifteen? Okay, all right, Well, 1:17:05.360 --> 1:17:07.639 the problem is is that I can't keep them off 1:17:07.720 --> 1:17:10.439 of my yard. I am not that old man. I 1:17:10.800 --> 1:17:13.320 have to I have to physically restrain myself so that 1:17:13.400 --> 1:17:15.559 I don't go running out there and saying get off 1:17:15.640 --> 1:17:20.240 of my grass. But I mean, it happens. I watched 1:17:20.320 --> 1:17:23.800 this all the time, and I'm like, do you not understand? 1:17:24.000 --> 1:17:27.160 And then I realized they don't. They don't get it, 1:17:27.280 --> 1:17:29.280 and I think that the same thing is that it's 1:17:29.360 --> 1:17:33.280 it's communal to them at that point. Oh yeah, the 1:17:33.680 --> 1:17:36.280 the CAA goals. They left the golf club. I picked 1:17:36.320 --> 1:17:39.040 up the golf club. I carried it home. I'll wander 1:17:39.160 --> 1:17:40.840 back by in a couple of days and just chuck 1:17:40.880 --> 1:17:42.880 it on their lawn or the garden will pick it up. 1:17:43.200 --> 1:17:45.559 That weird old guy, I'll do it. There's I mean, 1:17:45.600 --> 1:17:49.639 I guess there's some I can explain away why John 1:17:49.920 --> 1:17:53.720 might have gone the way he went right to go 1:17:53.840 --> 1:17:57.519 out back. I mean her Martha's body was discovered by 1:17:57.600 --> 1:17:59.920 her friend who was cutting through her property, which means 1:18:00.040 --> 1:18:02.719 that like, that's how those friends got to each other's property, 1:18:02.800 --> 1:18:05.639 usually right. It was probably a route right, so one 1:18:05.680 --> 1:18:08.360 would assume that, But also one would assume that if 1:18:08.439 --> 1:18:11.120 you were going to go investigate that way, you would 1:18:11.160 --> 1:18:15.639 see the body, depending on that light at the time 1:18:15.800 --> 1:18:18.439 that you're walking through. If it's if he's wandering about 1:18:18.680 --> 1:18:22.080 four in the morning and it doesn't fall into his 1:18:22.200 --> 1:18:24.519 flashlight beam, he's not going to see it. No, but 1:18:24.840 --> 1:18:26.880 it was my understanding that that was the search. The 1:18:26.960 --> 1:18:30.040 search with his male friend was like eight or nine. 1:18:30.360 --> 1:18:32.799 It was about nine, and it was very brief. Basically, 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:34.240 they want it, just went out back and sort of 1:18:34.360 --> 1:18:37.240 took a look, you know, and yelled. Probably I don't 1:18:37.240 --> 1:18:40.280 think they even yelled. They just sort of looked and yeah. 1:18:40.640 --> 1:18:42.400 But you know, again, I'm not going to try to 1:18:42.439 --> 1:18:45.080 accuse John. I've seen a couple of different interviews with 1:18:45.160 --> 1:18:46.519 him on the on the tube, and he seems like 1:18:46.560 --> 1:18:51.400 a reasonably decent, sincere guy. Yeah. I don't see any 1:18:52.320 --> 1:18:55.560 any of cases he's a psycho killer. Next step is 1:18:56.320 --> 1:19:00.519 Martha's boyfriend at the time, Peter's of Luca. She had boyfriends, 1:19:00.600 --> 1:19:03.320 You had a boyfriend. I think I think Peter was 1:19:03.479 --> 1:19:05.800 sixteen at the time. He has since deceased. A lot 1:19:05.840 --> 1:19:07.320 of people involved with this case. By the way, he 1:19:07.400 --> 1:19:09.960 died young for some reason. Um, you know, usually a 1:19:10.080 --> 1:19:13.519 drug overdoses or just whatever, heart attacks. Martha's father is 1:19:13.600 --> 1:19:16.719 dead living in an indulgent lifestyle. Yeah, Well, Martha's father 1:19:17.200 --> 1:19:19.800 was actually not indulgent. He was he was a workaholic. 1:19:19.840 --> 1:19:23.040 He's one of those guys you know, never stop type 1:19:23.080 --> 1:19:26.200 a personality. You know, you know who died in his 1:19:26.320 --> 1:19:29.880 fifties I believe, maybe maybe sixties. I don't know he died. 1:19:30.080 --> 1:19:33.479 He died fairly young, though unfortunately Dorothy Age of my knowledge, 1:19:33.520 --> 1:19:37.840 is still alive. Back to Peter's Luca the boyfriend. Uh, 1:19:38.240 --> 1:19:40.800 there were some diary entries in Martha's diary about Peter, 1:19:40.960 --> 1:19:44.679 apparently that he had some really bad moods. He said 1:19:44.720 --> 1:19:47.080 hateful things to Martha. He was a violent he had 1:19:47.120 --> 1:19:49.760 reputation as a violent person to fighter. How old was he? 1:19:49.960 --> 1:19:52.679 I think he was sixteen, Dade. That explains that, got it? Yeah? 1:19:53.360 --> 1:19:55.840 I know, six year old dudes. They're dumb, they say 1:19:55.960 --> 1:20:00.160 stupid stuff. Got it, Okay? Yeah, But apparently Martha god 1:20:00.160 --> 1:20:02.040 into her diary at least was planning to break up 1:20:02.080 --> 1:20:06.599 with Peter, which indicates nothing. Okay, but Peter, I understand. 1:20:06.640 --> 1:20:08.840 It indicates that she may have done it that night 1:20:09.000 --> 1:20:12.760 and that he reacted badly. But or perhaps you know, 1:20:12.920 --> 1:20:15.360 he has an alibi, which is his mother. That which 1:20:15.439 --> 1:20:18.280 is not the tightest alibi I've ever heard. Yeah, that's 1:20:18.280 --> 1:20:21.280 a pretty common. Yeah it is, and not an a 1:20:21.320 --> 1:20:23.880 tight one. But if you if you look at it. 1:20:24.120 --> 1:20:27.879 He apparently said that he worshiped Martha. He was apparently 1:20:28.040 --> 1:20:32.640 really gaga over over Martha. Imagine a scenario where he 1:20:32.800 --> 1:20:35.120 went out. He didn't actually stay home at all with 1:20:35.200 --> 1:20:37.160 his mother, because why would he stayed on with his mother? 1:20:37.240 --> 1:20:39.680 Stayed on with his mother and watch TV, you know. 1:20:39.760 --> 1:20:42.320 I mean, imagine he went after Ristef and I imagine 1:20:42.360 --> 1:20:44.240 he made he's made his way over towards the Moxley 1:20:44.320 --> 1:20:47.800 house and it was maybe crossing the Cakele's land with 1:20:47.920 --> 1:20:50.479 they had a fairly decent sized parcel and happened to 1:20:50.560 --> 1:20:54.360 see Martha and Tommy going at it, fooling around. Uh 1:20:54.439 --> 1:20:57.880 huh yeah. That that they explain exactly how he changed 1:20:57.920 --> 1:21:00.760 his story. I'll talk to all to Tommy. Yeah, Tommy, no, 1:21:00.920 --> 1:21:02.800 you decided to break him up, so you haven't. You 1:21:02.840 --> 1:21:06.200 haven't told us a second story. They had a sexual encounter. 1:21:06.520 --> 1:21:11.920 Um yeah, well they hung out remember the hands pants Yeah, 1:21:12.040 --> 1:21:15.040 hands and pants conscription. That's that's what he means by 1:21:15.080 --> 1:21:19.439 a sexual encounter. Yeah, they sexually. According to Tommy, they 1:21:19.520 --> 1:21:24.720 engaged in a mutual masturbation. Yeah yeah, hants pants yeah, 1:21:25.080 --> 1:21:28.920 pants yeah. And supposing if he witnessed us uh, and 1:21:29.000 --> 1:21:31.760 if you're, you know, sixteen and head over heels and 1:21:31.880 --> 1:21:33.720 love and something like that. You see that. I mean 1:21:33.800 --> 1:21:36.040 obviously that I could see where that would cost somebody 1:21:36.080 --> 1:21:39.000 to flip out. Yeah, I can all yeah, I can 1:21:39.080 --> 1:21:43.160 see the violent rage. I can also see the sobbing, 1:21:43.280 --> 1:21:45.960 blubbering mess. I mean that could go either way. Yeah, 1:21:46.320 --> 1:21:48.600 but it's also it would also be interesting if the 1:21:48.720 --> 1:21:51.360 dude in that scenario, the extra dude in that scenario, 1:21:51.560 --> 1:21:55.200 didn't bear some of the wrath that you would think. 1:21:55.320 --> 1:21:57.320 You would think that he would be good after Tommy, 1:21:57.360 --> 1:22:03.280 even for yeah, yeah, and then Martha maybe not. Ye. Well, anyway, 1:22:03.360 --> 1:22:07.240 Peter's Luca took a polygraph and passed apparently, And I'm 1:22:07.240 --> 1:22:10.479 not so sure how ironclad polygraphs really are. Yeah, they're 1:22:10.600 --> 1:22:13.400 they're not They're not the best ever. But okay, so 1:22:13.520 --> 1:22:17.080 Peter's Peters cleared. So that leads us with one and 1:22:17.120 --> 1:22:20.599 a half suspects. Yeah kind of. Well, you know, Michael 1:22:20.840 --> 1:22:26.479 changed his story, um, and eventually the Sutton the Sutton 1:22:26.520 --> 1:22:29.800 investigation was closed down. Tommy had a lawyer ever since, 1:22:29.880 --> 1:22:32.559 ever since, like nineteen seventy six, he had an early 1:22:32.600 --> 1:22:36.160 seventy six, he had a lawyer shocking named Manny Margolas, 1:22:36.800 --> 1:22:40.240 and he was present when when Tommy changed his story. 1:22:40.920 --> 1:22:44.280 That was in summer nine and that's when he shut 1:22:44.320 --> 1:22:47.719 down the Sutton investigation. And but then there was somebody 1:22:47.760 --> 1:22:52.320 that Sutton had hired. They had hired this college this yeah, 1:22:52.680 --> 1:22:56.880 and this guy was about three and his job was 1:22:56.960 --> 1:22:59.559 to distill all the information in the pilots into a nice, 1:22:59.640 --> 1:23:02.840 co hair out, well written report. And he is the 1:23:02.880 --> 1:23:05.759 guy who leaked the report to Dominic Dunne. I remember 1:23:05.840 --> 1:23:09.840 him and story for Vanity Fair. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, he 1:23:10.320 --> 1:23:13.479 leaked a copy of that report to Dominic Dunn because 1:23:13.600 --> 1:23:17.040 he felt that, you know, this report really implicated the Cagles, 1:23:17.240 --> 1:23:19.760 especially Michael, And of course Dominic Dunn eventually gave the 1:23:19.800 --> 1:23:22.040 report to Mark Furman, who used this the basis for 1:23:22.120 --> 1:23:25.200 a lot of charges his book. So we talked about 1:23:25.240 --> 1:23:28.120 how Michael changed his story and when he when talking 1:23:28.160 --> 1:23:30.720 to that was it was for the Sutton Yeah, so 1:23:30.960 --> 1:23:32.679 that was not the first time he had actually changed 1:23:32.720 --> 1:23:35.840 his story, which we talked about, which we talked about, Yeah, 1:23:35.920 --> 1:23:39.719 but it formed it formed the basis for the Ferman book, 1:23:39.760 --> 1:23:42.840 which again was the blueprint for the prosecution case. The 1:23:42.920 --> 1:23:45.800 major difference between the prosecution of Furman's book is at 1:23:45.880 --> 1:23:49.559 least Furman was honest enough to acknowledge the golf club 1:23:49.640 --> 1:23:52.360 handle was present at the crime scene. I mean he 1:23:52.560 --> 1:23:55.840 and he insinuated that there was corruption in the Granwich 1:23:55.920 --> 1:23:58.679 Police department, that perhaps a corrupt cop had had gotten 1:23:58.760 --> 1:24:01.120 rid of the evidence, but at least acknowledged that that 1:24:01.240 --> 1:24:04.200 it was president at the crime scene, which the prosecution 1:24:04.240 --> 1:24:08.080 didn't do. The prosecution said that the murderer, whoever he was, 1:24:08.200 --> 1:24:10.559 had carried it away with him from the crime scene. 1:24:11.000 --> 1:24:14.519 Michael's also made statements to a guy named Richard Hoffman 1:24:14.520 --> 1:24:16.160 who was a ghostwriter. He was going to write a 1:24:16.200 --> 1:24:19.200 book since he had been come back into the microscope. 1:24:19.520 --> 1:24:23.000 He was gonna gonna write a book about yeah and 1:24:23.080 --> 1:24:25.720 tell the story and all that, and and so they 1:24:25.760 --> 1:24:29.200 made a bunch of tapes, and in these tapes he 1:24:29.240 --> 1:24:31.439 made some various statements, like he talked about the whole 1:24:31.520 --> 1:24:34.400 climbing of the tree thing. And he also talked about 1:24:34.439 --> 1:24:36.920 when he woke up the next day and Dorothy Moxley 1:24:37.040 --> 1:24:39.560 was standing outside his bedroom door. He said it's His 1:24:39.640 --> 1:24:42.559 statement was basically like, oh, mared, what if she saw 1:24:42.680 --> 1:24:45.280 me last night? You know? And they played that, and 1:24:45.520 --> 1:24:49.120 that the prosecution played that in closing arguments. They played that, 1:24:49.160 --> 1:24:52.200 they played the tape and they had selectively edited and stuff, 1:24:52.240 --> 1:24:54.000 and they played the tape and along with the picture 1:24:54.040 --> 1:24:57.040 of Martha's dead body laying in the yard some kind 1:24:57.080 --> 1:25:00.800 of like power audio power point. There was a power point. Yeah. Yeah, 1:25:01.320 --> 1:25:04.120 and apparently that was a very yeah, that was very effective. 1:25:04.600 --> 1:25:07.000 So that was part of their closing. Their evidence was 1:25:07.080 --> 1:25:11.599 basically the nonexistent seamen, which said that the prosecution actually 1:25:11.680 --> 1:25:15.719 stated he had he had purposely ejaculated on Martha's body 1:25:15.760 --> 1:25:18.120 as a final act of disrespect. And I read that, 1:25:18.240 --> 1:25:20.479 I read the closing. That's what he said, even though 1:25:20.760 --> 1:25:23.200 nothing was found on her body. Man, Michael should have 1:25:23.479 --> 1:25:29.639 just stuck to the shaggy defense no matter what they say, 1:25:29.920 --> 1:25:44.400 wouldn't I But who Yeah, alright, so much for that. 1:25:44.600 --> 1:25:47.519 But and there was a little a little more evidence. 1:25:48.280 --> 1:25:50.559 But obviously the statement of the tape was taken by 1:25:50.560 --> 1:25:52.800 the journey. I mean, what if she saw me murdering Martha? 1:25:53.000 --> 1:25:55.160 Oh no, no, that that that that was that was 1:25:55.479 --> 1:25:59.920 as stitched together as some of our past episodes, totally 1:26:00.640 --> 1:26:05.800 totally put together. And you know, and obviously if she 1:26:05.880 --> 1:26:07.960 had seen Martha being murdered. I don't think she would 1:26:07.960 --> 1:26:09.360 have waited till eight thirty in the morning to come 1:26:09.400 --> 1:26:11.080 over and say, hey, Michael, I want to talk to 1:26:11.120 --> 1:26:15.120 you about you murdering my daughter. Yeah, but that seems 1:26:15.160 --> 1:26:17.559 to be the implication from that. I mean, that's totally 1:26:17.600 --> 1:26:21.920 the application. Yeah, Okay, this guy is so going to 1:26:22.000 --> 1:26:24.559 be out of jail by the or the decisions gonna 1:26:24.560 --> 1:26:26.840 have come through by the time this episode post. I 1:26:26.960 --> 1:26:30.599 hope I am so. Based on what we've talked about 1:26:30.640 --> 1:26:34.000 and I've read. I hope you guys resolutions. Good lord, 1:26:34.520 --> 1:26:36.439 you know I can't. I have to break it to you, guys, 1:26:36.479 --> 1:26:39.160 but I gotta tell you this. Judges are more concerned 1:26:39.320 --> 1:26:43.160 about process than they are, for the most part, about justice. 1:26:44.080 --> 1:26:47.000 They are, but the process was ruined because they said 1:26:47.080 --> 1:26:51.120 they had evidence, which that evidence has never been presented. 1:26:51.479 --> 1:26:54.000 Well exactly, they like so much evidence and and and 1:26:54.320 --> 1:26:57.439 and to take the loss of the golf club handle, 1:26:57.640 --> 1:26:59.439 and to make so much hay out of that, like 1:26:59.800 --> 1:27:03.120 the points a finger at our at the and I 1:27:03.280 --> 1:27:05.679 just lost it. To say you have a piece of evidence, 1:27:05.720 --> 1:27:08.920 but not make that available to the defense, To then say, 1:27:09.280 --> 1:27:11.200 well you didn't want to do any testing on but 1:27:11.320 --> 1:27:13.439 let me do testing to see if I can prove 1:27:13.520 --> 1:27:16.400 my client innocent. I mean, that's a process problem. This 1:27:16.439 --> 1:27:24.040 whole thing is just so yeah, okay, so that's Michael. Yeah, 1:27:24.400 --> 1:27:26.600 the uh yeah, Well the other evidence they had is 1:27:26.640 --> 1:27:28.840 the ad testament. I remember I said elon the school 1:27:28.920 --> 1:27:31.680 where they the drug adult kids and stuff like that. 1:27:32.240 --> 1:27:35.479 There are two guys that were at that school with 1:27:35.680 --> 1:27:38.000 him who testified at his trial. One of them was 1:27:38.080 --> 1:27:41.080 John Higgins. And John Higgins actually doesn't get very good 1:27:41.160 --> 1:27:44.720 character references. I've read a lot of trial court transcripts 1:27:44.760 --> 1:27:46.519 of various people that want to belong with him and 1:27:46.560 --> 1:27:49.040 then had very low opinion of him, and then he 1:27:49.160 --> 1:27:53.759 was honest or trustworthy. But the states State of Connecticut 1:27:53.800 --> 1:27:57.479 is an investigator. Frank gard Uh was apparently contacted by 1:27:57.520 --> 1:27:59.439 somebody in need Higgins and said that he should call 1:27:59.560 --> 1:28:02.160 Higgins because at this time there was a fifty dollar 1:28:02.240 --> 1:28:06.680 reward post posted by the Moxley family. Yeah, and so 1:28:07.439 --> 1:28:11.720 Higgins apparently contacted them or maybe guard contacted Higgins, and 1:28:11.800 --> 1:28:14.840 John Higgins basically said, look, you know I didn't I 1:28:15.240 --> 1:28:18.200 I don't know, I know nothing because you know, I 1:28:18.400 --> 1:28:21.320 Michael never told me that he confessed to you, never 1:28:21.360 --> 1:28:24.040 said he never told me he murdered Martha Moxley. And 1:28:24.200 --> 1:28:26.719 so then Frank Garr spells out to him very carefully. 1:28:26.960 --> 1:28:29.679 Do you know about the reward? This is a policeman again. 1:28:29.720 --> 1:28:31.600 Frank Carr says, do you know about the reward? And 1:28:32.080 --> 1:28:34.200 Higgin says, yeah, I hear it's fifty thousand bucks. And 1:28:34.640 --> 1:28:36.880 at the time the reward had just been raised to 1:28:37.000 --> 1:28:40.360 a hundred thousand bucks. And so Garr says to Higgins, well, 1:28:40.400 --> 1:28:43.559 it's a hundred thousand bucks, and Higgins says to him, Oh, 1:28:43.800 --> 1:28:46.519 that's special. And then Gar explains to him, you know, 1:28:46.640 --> 1:28:49.560 like you know, the terms of it pretty much what 1:28:49.680 --> 1:28:52.360 he needs to tell him, you know, and then calls 1:28:52.439 --> 1:28:54.840 him back, calls him back in a later time and says, hey, 1:28:54.880 --> 1:28:56.600 have you thought about that? I thought about all this 1:28:56.880 --> 1:28:59.680 that And then Higgins changed And how do we know that? 1:28:59.800 --> 1:29:02.800 By the way, is this on tape somewhere? Yeah, Frank 1:29:02.840 --> 1:29:06.519 Guard taped the conversation, so we hear him leading building 1:29:06.840 --> 1:29:10.559 the witnesses story and then having the witness and then 1:29:10.640 --> 1:29:13.240 he changes his story, and he doesn't change his story. 1:29:14.000 --> 1:29:16.600 He doesn't change his story to Michael, saying I did it. 1:29:17.160 --> 1:29:19.840 He changed his story to Michael saying, yeah, it was 1:29:19.960 --> 1:29:22.000 all kind of in a haze. It was kind of 1:29:22.040 --> 1:29:25.200 like in a dream. I was in the garage pulling 1:29:25.240 --> 1:29:27.800 a golf club out of a set and the next 1:29:27.840 --> 1:29:30.160 thing I know, I was running through made into a 1:29:30.280 --> 1:29:33.400 dream scene. Yeah, TV show. Okay, I was running through 1:29:33.479 --> 1:29:35.960 some pine trees, you know, with the golf club, and 1:29:36.560 --> 1:29:38.640 that's you know all I remember. That was enough for 1:29:38.680 --> 1:29:42.519 the jury. But he never actually told Higgins never actually 1:29:42.560 --> 1:29:46.160 said Michael said I did it. I mean, because he 1:29:46.240 --> 1:29:47.760 was so he was willing to shade it in order 1:29:47.800 --> 1:29:50.920 to collect some money. But he was not willing, apparently 1:29:51.000 --> 1:29:53.000 to go over the line and say that Michael had 1:29:53.040 --> 1:29:57.000 actually said I did it. Uh. There was another witness 1:29:57.120 --> 1:30:00.640 is Greg Coleman. All it is for again Michael. This 1:30:00.800 --> 1:30:04.720 was against Michael. Yeah. Uh, similar kind of guy. Not 1:30:04.920 --> 1:30:07.479 he was a heroin addict and uh and you know, 1:30:07.640 --> 1:30:10.120 you know heroin addict people. I don't want to sound judgmental, 1:30:10.200 --> 1:30:13.120 but they're not the most trustworthy people, you know. But 1:30:13.479 --> 1:30:16.800 he said that Michael had confessed to him while that alone, 1:30:16.840 --> 1:30:19.840 he said that he had done it, and and he 1:30:19.960 --> 1:30:22.320 changed his story up a little bit. Uh, He's at 1:30:22.360 --> 1:30:24.160 one time he said that Michael confessed to him like 1:30:24.240 --> 1:30:26.840 six times and then finally if he wintled it down 1:30:26.880 --> 1:30:31.639 to maybe two times. But you know, nobody else said 1:30:31.640 --> 1:30:34.040 a lot. Everybody else that want to along with Michael 1:30:34.120 --> 1:30:36.880 said that if he had fessed up it along, it 1:30:36.920 --> 1:30:38.600 would have been all over the school. There was a 1:30:38.640 --> 1:30:41.120 small school, about a hundred students, and they were all 1:30:41.320 --> 1:30:45.120 anything at any school spreads like wild. Yeah, they were all. 1:30:45.360 --> 1:30:47.599 They were totally encouraged to write each other out too, 1:30:48.120 --> 1:30:50.479 and so you know, and so for the other people, 1:30:50.479 --> 1:30:52.800 there were other people that testified for defense, the defense 1:30:52.880 --> 1:30:55.880 that said this was completely laughable. This whole idea that 1:30:56.200 --> 1:30:58.559 he this, this guy would have kept it to himself. Yea, 1:30:58.840 --> 1:31:02.479 he ridiculous. So the other thing about Michael is is, 1:31:02.840 --> 1:31:05.600 you know, they interrogated them on the day of the 1:31:05.680 --> 1:31:09.400 body being discovered, and they didn't give him all polygraphs. 1:31:09.479 --> 1:31:12.360 But I saw Michael's brother, John, who was in the 1:31:12.439 --> 1:31:14.680 car that went to the Terryans and provided him with 1:31:14.720 --> 1:31:17.160 an alibi. I saw him on the two. He seemed 1:31:17.160 --> 1:31:20.080 completely honest and sincere, and he said, look, you know, 1:31:20.240 --> 1:31:22.320 I mean I was with Michael, and that's what I 1:31:22.400 --> 1:31:24.760 told the police the day of and I took a 1:31:24.840 --> 1:31:27.240 polygraph test and I passed it and that was good enough. 1:31:27.280 --> 1:31:29.280 Now now they complaiming that we're all liars. I mean 1:31:29.360 --> 1:31:32.000 he was, he was. He was sincerely a little outraged 1:31:32.040 --> 1:31:35.519 by the whole thing. Yeah, but I do think that 1:31:35.640 --> 1:31:38.120 Michael Skegle is innocent. I don't think I think his 1:31:38.320 --> 1:31:40.880 alibi is solid. But one thing I forgot to mention 1:31:41.479 --> 1:31:44.679 is that Ken Littleton was it was routinely being picked 1:31:44.760 --> 1:31:46.760 up by the police. And it's nineteen seventy six. He 1:31:46.840 --> 1:31:50.639 told Greenwich police that Russian Jr. Told him at about 1:31:50.760 --> 1:31:52.720 nine fifteen and the night of the thirtie that he 1:31:52.840 --> 1:31:55.280 was going to take Jimmy Terryan back home and then 1:31:55.320 --> 1:31:57.599 he was taking his brother's John and Michael with him. 1:31:57.760 --> 1:31:59.560 He told that to the police and that was in 1:31:59.640 --> 1:32:06.680 the police files. The police withheld that from the defense. Again, Yeah, 1:32:06.760 --> 1:32:09.040 they withheld that from the defense, along with some other tidbits. 1:32:09.080 --> 1:32:13.000 So basically Michael's innocent, apparently because they could not have 1:32:13.560 --> 1:32:16.640 gotten a conviction without undermining his alibi the way they did. 1:32:16.800 --> 1:32:18.960 But his alibi and my and they found one there 1:32:19.000 --> 1:32:21.360 was one other witness that was not president at the 1:32:21.360 --> 1:32:23.519 trial at all, who also confirmed his alibi that he 1:32:23.600 --> 1:32:27.360 was arrians. So essentially, you know, that's it. He's innocent. 1:32:27.920 --> 1:32:30.200 That doesn't mean that the Supreme Court is gonna is 1:32:30.280 --> 1:32:32.240 not going to toss him back in jail, because you 1:32:32.280 --> 1:32:35.040 don't know the way the lawyers think. But anyway, sorry, 1:32:35.080 --> 1:32:37.240 lawyers out there, by the way, let me get on. 1:32:37.439 --> 1:32:39.519 So Michael's out, let's get it. Get on to the 1:32:39.600 --> 1:32:41.960 next ones. These ones were put forth by, first of all, 1:32:42.000 --> 1:32:44.880 a guy named Tony Bryant. RFK Jr. Talks about him 1:32:44.880 --> 1:32:48.280 in his book. Tony Bryant actually went to granted, he 1:32:48.360 --> 1:32:51.080 claims on the day of the murder. Tony is, by 1:32:51.120 --> 1:32:54.720 the way, his brother of Kobe Bryant, the basketball player. Yeah, 1:32:54.800 --> 1:32:58.360 and you can see his He was interviewed by detectives 1:32:58.439 --> 1:33:01.720 that were sent by Mike else defense team to to 1:33:01.880 --> 1:33:04.400 interview him. And it's it's two it's a two part video. 1:33:04.439 --> 1:33:06.479 It's on YouTube. If you go to and type in 1:33:06.600 --> 1:33:10.160 Tony Bryant interview you'll find it. Have you seen it? Uh? 1:33:10.520 --> 1:33:13.800 Start ringing a bell? Okay, Uh, So you talked about 1:33:13.800 --> 1:33:15.320 these two guys that he went to high school with 1:33:15.760 --> 1:33:18.320 Tony used to actually go to school and live in Grantwich, 1:33:18.400 --> 1:33:20.439 but then he moved to New York City and he 1:33:20.520 --> 1:33:22.240 was going to a much rougher high school, and he 1:33:22.360 --> 1:33:25.000 knew these two big dudes. They were like sixteen years old, 1:33:25.439 --> 1:33:28.800 Adolf Passbrooke and Burton Tinsley. The three of them like 1:33:28.880 --> 1:33:31.160 to actually occasionally go out to bell Haven and hang 1:33:31.240 --> 1:33:33.840 out since he used since Tony used to live out there, 1:33:34.360 --> 1:33:36.760 and apparently he said He says in his interview that 1:33:36.840 --> 1:33:40.400 Adolf became obsessed with Martha. He met her apparently a 1:33:40.439 --> 1:33:44.080 few times, and he believes that from things that he 1:33:44.160 --> 1:33:47.760 said that Adolphinburg said before and after the murder, he 1:33:47.880 --> 1:33:50.080 believes that they did it. I don't want to get 1:33:50.080 --> 1:33:52.280 into great detail, by the way, there I do want 1:33:52.320 --> 1:33:54.840 to say, by the way, there's no corroborating evidence I 1:33:54.960 --> 1:34:01.760 was for those two. Yeah, there for him, there is. Yeah, 1:34:01.840 --> 1:34:04.120 there is not again, not much in the way of evidence. 1:34:04.439 --> 1:34:09.080 But apparently these guys did did lawyer up and they're 1:34:09.080 --> 1:34:11.840 not talking. But and again I'm not I'm not saying 1:34:11.880 --> 1:34:14.599 they're guilty of anything because frankly, I I really don't 1:34:14.640 --> 1:34:16.720 see much of a motive here. So let's move on 1:34:16.800 --> 1:34:20.599 to our last suspect, Tommy's giggle. Tommy, as as we've noticed, 1:34:20.640 --> 1:34:23.880 had a history of violent outbursts. He changed his story. 1:34:24.439 --> 1:34:27.920 Like Michael, he changed his story. But here's the deal. 1:34:28.040 --> 1:34:30.960 Michael changed his story a lot sooner, before DNA was 1:34:31.040 --> 1:34:33.160 a thing. Tommy waited until out there there were a 1:34:33.200 --> 1:34:36.599 couple of couple of sudden investigators has had him down 1:34:36.600 --> 1:34:40.400 for an interrogation summer of one of them, Billy Krebs, 1:34:40.800 --> 1:34:44.960 I think he was x NYPD, said look, Tommy, you 1:34:45.040 --> 1:34:47.080 gotta you gotta understand this. We're gonna be doing some 1:34:47.240 --> 1:34:50.560 DNA testing and so you know, if there's anything that 1:34:51.160 --> 1:34:53.639 you haven't told us before, you should tell us now. 1:34:54.360 --> 1:35:00.080 That's standard procedure to rattle somebody. Okay, yeah, yeah, And 1:35:00.920 --> 1:35:05.360 that is when Tommy changed his story and said that 1:35:05.439 --> 1:35:08.160 they spent on extra twenty minutes between nine thirty and 1:35:08.240 --> 1:35:10.960 nine fifty out back behind the tool shed in the 1:35:11.080 --> 1:35:17.000 yard doing their whole hands hands pants thing and they 1:35:17.040 --> 1:35:20.160 were leading on a pretty hard Apparently that from what 1:35:20.240 --> 1:35:23.800 I can, what I understand is the investigators were they 1:35:23.840 --> 1:35:27.559 were they were after he changed his story, and apparently 1:35:27.640 --> 1:35:30.599 Tommy looked like he was about to cry then want 1:35:30.680 --> 1:35:33.679 him to suggest that they that they take a break. 1:35:33.960 --> 1:35:37.160 Billy Krabs was infuriated by this because it broke the 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:40.400 whole It broke the whole tension thing, and also it 1:35:40.479 --> 1:35:44.080 allowed Manny Margolis, who was present lawyer, to basically put 1:35:44.120 --> 1:35:46.519 an end to the whole interview. So they never got 1:35:46.520 --> 1:35:49.080 any further with Tommy. But I gotta say, I mean, 1:35:49.160 --> 1:35:51.400 I mean, all the suspicion has been cast upon Michael 1:35:51.520 --> 1:35:53.840 because he changed his story, because that would account for 1:35:54.240 --> 1:35:58.799 see human being present when it was. Yeah, when Tommy 1:35:58.960 --> 1:36:01.360 did the same thing and the exact thing. And the 1:36:01.439 --> 1:36:05.000 thing is he didn't do it until here's the other thing. 1:36:05.280 --> 1:36:07.479 Tommy lied the night of or I should say he 1:36:07.800 --> 1:36:10.599 he lied the day after. Now I can see why 1:36:10.640 --> 1:36:13.040 Tommy would leave a few silaous details out. I can 1:36:13.080 --> 1:36:17.360 see why why he would leave out the party about 1:36:17.360 --> 1:36:20.200 the hands pants. But you don't have to lie about 1:36:20.439 --> 1:36:22.439 when you actually parted ways with her, and that would 1:36:22.439 --> 1:36:24.439 be useful information for the police who are trying to 1:36:24.520 --> 1:36:26.680 establish the time of death and what her movements were. 1:36:27.520 --> 1:36:31.400 But he lied, and well, Hamm, there's no conceivable reason 1:36:31.439 --> 1:36:33.719 to lie when he could have just sanitized his account, 1:36:34.000 --> 1:36:37.560 except he wanted to remove himself as far away in 1:36:37.800 --> 1:36:40.200 time as he could from the actual time of death, 1:36:40.400 --> 1:36:43.600 which he knew. He but he no, he doesn't have 1:36:43.920 --> 1:36:46.559 to have known the time of death. We talked about 1:36:46.640 --> 1:36:51.800 this earlier. You're of seventeen year old kid. You've been 1:36:52.680 --> 1:36:56.840 playing tickle with a girl, and you know that's not 1:36:57.080 --> 1:37:00.240 going to go down well with your family, led loan 1:37:00.360 --> 1:37:03.479 the cops now that she has found with a golf 1:37:03.560 --> 1:37:07.439 club stuck in her neck. But of course you're gonna 1:37:07.600 --> 1:37:12.479 You're gonna try foolishly because you don't think clearly in 1:37:12.560 --> 1:37:15.639 the heat of the moment. You're you're you're putting your 1:37:15.760 --> 1:37:18.760 all of your investigation time to say, well, obviously it 1:37:18.760 --> 1:37:22.040 would make sense, but you don't know that at the time. 1:37:22.360 --> 1:37:24.600 For him, did you go, I don't know. I no, No, 1:37:24.840 --> 1:37:29.040 We kissed and we walked away. We were doing anything, untoured, 1:37:29.560 --> 1:37:32.000 nothing at all. But there's the deal. Is that again, 1:37:32.200 --> 1:37:35.000 Tommy didn't he could just sanitize his account. All you 1:37:35.040 --> 1:37:37.120 needed to do. Let's say, yeah, we hung out, we 1:37:37.240 --> 1:37:40.120 sipped beers, we smoked a cigarette, we parted way as 1:37:40.120 --> 1:37:42.719 a ten minute still ten and you're giving Billie because 1:37:42.760 --> 1:37:48.240 again at this time, but if Tommy didn't do the crime, 1:37:48.560 --> 1:37:50.479 then Tommy had no clue what the time of the 1:37:50.520 --> 1:37:52.640 murder was. As far as tommy, it was midnight, it 1:37:52.720 --> 1:37:55.240 was three and three am. He had no idea. Well, 1:37:55.320 --> 1:37:58.240 he went on TV show at some point and he 1:37:58.360 --> 1:38:01.320 may have done really crappy man as to what time 1:38:01.400 --> 1:38:05.360 he left her. But I don't know that I understand 1:38:05.439 --> 1:38:09.600 that you feel that it is really really important that 1:38:09.840 --> 1:38:13.360 he changed his story the way he did. I don't 1:38:13.400 --> 1:38:15.720 see it the same way. I think it casts a 1:38:15.800 --> 1:38:18.280 lot more suspicion on Tommy than it does on Michael. 1:38:18.360 --> 1:38:20.560 Michael had better reason to leave out his account of 1:38:20.720 --> 1:38:23.680 climbing the tree and playing pocket pool. Tommy had no 1:38:23.880 --> 1:38:27.439 reason to not tell the police the time that he 1:38:27.520 --> 1:38:30.519 parted ways with Martha. I want to clarify when he 1:38:30.640 --> 1:38:33.280 told police that was it after they found her body 1:38:33.400 --> 1:38:35.559 or before they found her body. That was after they 1:38:35.600 --> 1:38:38.960 found a body, but before before any time of death 1:38:39.000 --> 1:38:43.439 had been established. Yeah, established that it does with a 1:38:43.520 --> 1:38:46.960 good solid window. Yeah, it does, and so and so Again, 1:38:47.040 --> 1:38:49.240 that's a little bit of a head scratcher when he 1:38:49.360 --> 1:38:51.639 could have provided them with a little more solid information 1:38:51.680 --> 1:38:56.000 that he chose to lie instead. Um, you know, well, realistically, 1:38:56.160 --> 1:38:58.680 I have a really crappy sense of time, and I 1:38:58.800 --> 1:39:01.479 couldn't tell you like, you know, this episode feels like 1:39:01.560 --> 1:39:04.840 it's been literally ten hours, but you know it's been 1:39:04.920 --> 1:39:07.800 what like too So I think, you know, for me, 1:39:08.160 --> 1:39:11.240 as somebody with a really bad sense of time, it's 1:39:11.280 --> 1:39:13.040 reasonable to say like, I don't know, we hung out 1:39:13.080 --> 1:39:15.160 for ten more minutes. Well then, but then I thought 1:39:15.200 --> 1:39:17.240 we had a bad sense of time. Then how do 1:39:17.360 --> 1:39:19.280 we know we parted ways from Martha ten minutes? Still 1:39:19.320 --> 1:39:22.760 tenn and not we don't We don't really know that, 1:39:23.680 --> 1:39:25.640 But it just seems to me that the later it 1:39:25.760 --> 1:39:29.040 goes the like later her time of death is. You know, 1:39:29.160 --> 1:39:31.160 for me, it's just saying like, I don't know. I 1:39:31.200 --> 1:39:34.880 mean not to sound like a jerk, but it could 1:39:34.920 --> 1:39:37.120 have been that he hung out with her for five 1:39:37.439 --> 1:39:41.000 or ten minutes and she talked to him the whole 1:39:41.200 --> 1:39:43.920 time and him being a tiple. Go dude, it's like 1:39:44.520 --> 1:39:47.479 this has been going on for so long, she just 1:39:47.640 --> 1:39:51.160 won't stop talking. It feels like I've been here for 1:39:51.240 --> 1:39:57.120 like twenty minutes. Alternate alternately, right, Um, you ever been 1:39:57.280 --> 1:39:59.600 like having sex and been like oh my god, this 1:39:59.760 --> 1:40:01.800 is the most amazing hour of my life. And you 1:40:01.840 --> 1:40:04.120 look at the clock and you're like, it's been five minutes, 1:40:05.880 --> 1:40:07.720 Like do you ever do that? Though, Like ever in 1:40:07.800 --> 1:40:09.560 your life have you been like, wow, this is like 1:40:09.680 --> 1:40:14.320 amazing And then you're really So there's also I guess, 1:40:14.680 --> 1:40:18.200 some reality to him, you know, them engaging in whatever 1:40:18.240 --> 1:40:20.840 we're calling it, hands pants or whatever, right, and them 1:40:20.960 --> 1:40:24.160 both thinking like oh my god, or him particularly being like, wow, 1:40:24.240 --> 1:40:27.840 that was an amazing ten minutes, but actually it was 1:40:27.920 --> 1:40:30.679 like an hour, or even vice versa where he says 1:40:33.520 --> 1:40:36.599 and then you know, Ken says, no, dude, you were here, 1:40:37.120 --> 1:40:40.400 you know, ten minutes later, and he's like, oh really, Well, honestly, 1:40:40.560 --> 1:40:42.720 I don't I don't know how Tommy kept track of time. 1:40:42.760 --> 1:40:44.600 They might have had clocks, he might have glasced at 1:40:44.600 --> 1:40:46.639 clocks the whole time, and he might be off something. 1:40:47.080 --> 1:40:49.560 But the fact of the matter is is that he 1:40:50.560 --> 1:40:52.800 deliberately chose to put himself as far away from the 1:40:52.840 --> 1:40:56.919 time of murder as possible, which, in my opinion, is behavior. 1:40:57.439 --> 1:41:01.680 You can't say that Joe cannot a he deliberately did it. 1:41:02.000 --> 1:41:05.200 Of course, you don't know that. You can't say that 1:41:05.520 --> 1:41:08.000 you don't know that you had no reason to do otherwise, 1:41:08.439 --> 1:41:12.040 he may not have done it intentionally. How can you 1:41:12.120 --> 1:41:14.800 say that, because we just had the conversation. If he 1:41:14.920 --> 1:41:17.320 may have a crappy sense of time, so you can't 1:41:17.320 --> 1:41:19.720 say he's doing it intentionally. I think it was Peter, 1:41:21.479 --> 1:41:24.960 Peter Man Peter. Yeah. The nice thing about Peter is 1:41:25.000 --> 1:41:26.760 he's one of the dead ones, so you can keep 1:41:26.800 --> 1:41:30.559 him of all kinds of stuff. So, in fairness to Tommy, 1:41:30.640 --> 1:41:33.200 Tommy has lived under a cloud of suspicion for many, 1:41:33.280 --> 1:41:35.439 many years. I think a lot of people still suspect 1:41:35.520 --> 1:41:39.080 Tommy of being the killer, and you know, we don't 1:41:39.120 --> 1:41:42.960 really know. I mean, Tommy is uh. I still like 1:41:43.080 --> 1:41:45.160 Tommy as a suspect. But I have to tell you 1:41:45.240 --> 1:41:47.280 if I were sitting on a jury, I would not 1:41:47.400 --> 1:41:50.320 vote to convict Tommy of anything. I wouldn't know. There's yeah, 1:41:50.320 --> 1:41:54.599 there's no there's no solid evidence anywhere now there isn't there. 1:41:55.120 --> 1:41:59.680 And so whoever killed Martha? You know, I think that 1:41:59.760 --> 1:42:06.200 he has gotten away with it, but that happens. Yeah, Well, 1:42:06.360 --> 1:42:08.560 let's do some of that housekeeping stuff. Do we do 1:42:08.600 --> 1:42:11.519 with the other episodes? Yeah? Uh, First of all, our 1:42:11.600 --> 1:42:15.320 website Thinking Sideways podcast dot com where you can find 1:42:15.360 --> 1:42:18.680 our episodes. You can't come anymore unfortunately, but you can 1:42:18.680 --> 1:42:21.800 still listen to the episodes. Uh. 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