1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,640
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not supported by playing competitive solitaire. Instead,

2
00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,680
Speaker 1: it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon.

3
00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,799
Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways to learn more

4
00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't just I'm you never

5
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:32,600
Speaker 1: know stories of things we simply don't know the answer too. Well. Hi, there,

6
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,480
Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, joined

7
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 1: as always by Devon and Steve, and we're gonna guess

8
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,400
Speaker 1: what We're gonna talk about cooking, not really okay, of course,

9
00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,040
Speaker 1: a mystery, another groovy mystery. Okay. Our mystery began on

10
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 1: Halloween Day. Yeah, it's forty some years um, but actually

11
00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,080
Speaker 1: there's still a little movement on this one, believe it

12
00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,080
Speaker 1: or not. Still stuff going on there is. Yeah. First

13
00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,320
Speaker 1: of all, I want to thank Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

14
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,319
Speaker 1: Who suggested this mystery to us. Laughing right now, but

15
00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 1: really really genuinely. Yeah. He just published a new book

16
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,680
Speaker 1: and uh, and his publishers sent us a copy. And

17
00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:16,800
Speaker 1: I love it when people give us free stuff, which

18
00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,520
Speaker 1: it's cool. The book is called Framed Again by Robert F.

19
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,880
Speaker 1: Kennedy Jr. And it's a really good roundup of the

20
00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 1: story and all the suspects. And this case has actually

21
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,119
Speaker 1: received a lot of national attention for a long time.

22
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,240
Speaker 1: Lots of books have been written about it, not just

23
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,360
Speaker 1: arf Kase. And also there's another book that was written

24
00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,959
Speaker 1: in the nineties by Mark Furman. And he may have

25
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,360
Speaker 1: heard of Furman. He was the LPD homicide detective who

26
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,640
Speaker 1: was assigned to the O. J. Simpson murder. Yeah, you

27
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 1: remember that guy. He did a really good job with. Yeah, yeah,

28
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,080
Speaker 1: I didn't work out so well. And so the murder

29
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:55,920
Speaker 1: of O. J. Simpson's wife and her boyfriend remains unsolved.

30
00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 1: Um Ferman's book, it's got some good information in it,

31
00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,760
Speaker 1: though I don't really agree with all of his conclusions.

32
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,160
Speaker 1: He did a lot of reconstruction of the crame scene.

33
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,040
Speaker 1: He did. He did. He's got some drawings in there

34
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,840
Speaker 1: and stuff and and so. And he's a professional, obviously,

35
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,920
Speaker 1: he knows how to read his crime scenes better than

36
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,440
Speaker 1: the Grantwich p D. By the way, our murder takes

37
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,560
Speaker 1: place in Granwich, Connecticut. So thanks to rfk and thanks

38
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 1: to Ferman for suggesting this mystery to us. Yeah, well

39
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,840
Speaker 1: Furman didn't, yeah, I said, I sent an email to

40
00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 1: his publisher to see if he be willing to talk

41
00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,959
Speaker 1: to me. In surprise, I never heard back. Yeah. Yeah,

42
00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:34,519
Speaker 1: Well back to our mystery. Halloween October thirty first, about

43
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,200
Speaker 1: noon on that day, the body of a fifteen year

44
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,760
Speaker 1: old girl named Martha Moxley was found under a tree

45
00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,320
Speaker 1: in her family's yard in Granwich, Connecticut. She had been

46
00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,320
Speaker 1: bludgeoned on the head with the golf club, and the

47
00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,120
Speaker 1: club then broke into several pieces, which was either either

48
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,520
Speaker 1: from the force of the blows to her head or

49
00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,800
Speaker 1: maybe from the deliberate action of maybe the killer actually

50
00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,800
Speaker 1: broke it deliberately. It's hard to say, but it wasn't.

51
00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,880
Speaker 1: It was in basic four pieces before you go on.

52
00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,440
Speaker 1: Probably should warn people if there's munchkins around. Oh yeah,

53
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,640
Speaker 1: pause from here on forward. Yeah, it's kind of a brutal. Yes,

54
00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,400
Speaker 1: yeah it is. I know. I was just thinking, how

55
00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,080
Speaker 1: maybe we should have just said that earlier. I realized this,

56
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,240
Speaker 1: I know what's coming. Yeah, okay, so yeah, So it's

57
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 1: three pieces of the club were found laying in the

58
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 1: grass in the Boxley yard. That was the head, you know,

59
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:22,359
Speaker 1: that the part that you actually whacked the ball with,

60
00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,519
Speaker 1: and then two pieces of shafts stainless steel shaft. And

61
00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,480
Speaker 1: then the fourth piece was a piece of stainless steel

62
00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,799
Speaker 1: shaft with the handle attached to it. You know, it's

63
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,040
Speaker 1: the part that you grip with your hands when you

64
00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,639
Speaker 1: swing the golf club, the rubber grippy bit. Yeah, that

65
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,720
Speaker 1: that part. That part was used to stab her in

66
00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 1: the next several times. And the last one went all

67
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,800
Speaker 1: the way through and it went through her windpipe. And

68
00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,200
Speaker 1: it is believed that even if she survived all the blows,

69
00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 1: she would have died anyway from drowning in her own blood. Yeah. Yeah,

70
00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 1: and uh, the killer at that point. Uh, And I'm

71
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 1: getting out of hand here. It's like there was one

72
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,200
Speaker 1: blow delivered in the driveway. If you look at you

73
00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 1: look at an aerial of the house, it's the house

74
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,840
Speaker 1: where it took places at thirty Walsh Lane and Grantwich, Connecticut.

75
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 1: If you go to Google you can get a look

76
00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,760
Speaker 1: at an area of it. But they've changed up the

77
00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:07,920
Speaker 1: driveway a little bit. It used to be east to

78
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,800
Speaker 1: run on the west side of the house north to

79
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,600
Speaker 1: Walsh Lane, and then a little semi circular piece breaks

80
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,760
Speaker 1: off and branches out and goes also to Walsh Lane.

81
00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,920
Speaker 1: So you have a sort of semi circular driveway there.

82
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,040
Speaker 1: So that Patrick grass in the middle is where the

83
00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,480
Speaker 1: initial attack appeared to have taken place. In the middle

84
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,360
Speaker 1: basically a round about, yeah, kind of a roundabout thing. Uh.

85
00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,400
Speaker 1: And then apparently it's a half circle. Yeah, it's like

86
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 1: a quarter circle. Actually, when you think about it, it's

87
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,560
Speaker 1: not a round about, a quarter about. It's like a

88
00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,480
Speaker 1: it's like a U shaped driveway, yeah, except it's not

89
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,799
Speaker 1: quite you shaped. It's like this like this right. Yeah,

90
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:47,000
Speaker 1: you can't see what I did, but when when when

91
00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,240
Speaker 1: the murder happened, not anymore, it's totally it's a total

92
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,039
Speaker 1: horseshoe shape now. Yeah, and I guess it's probably worth

93
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,240
Speaker 1: noting that this is a gated community, so there's no

94
00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,080
Speaker 1: street view. You have to just look at who the

95
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,080
Speaker 1: earth right now. I know that's so frustrating that anyway,

96
00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,000
Speaker 1: So the attack happens on the quarter circle, the initial attack. Yeah.

97
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,839
Speaker 1: After that point, the killer dragged Martha south Based down,

98
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,720
Speaker 1: grabbed her by the feet, basically a drugg her face

99
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,880
Speaker 1: down across the driveway, and we know this because there

100
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,200
Speaker 1: were lots of gouges in her face, took her to

101
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,479
Speaker 1: a place over by a Japanese maple todjest to the

102
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,240
Speaker 1: south of the driveway and resumed beating and stabbing her.

103
00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,440
Speaker 1: This was the main attack took place, because there was

104
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 1: a major amount of blow that was found there. And

105
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,440
Speaker 1: then uh, and then last of all, you drugged her

106
00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,119
Speaker 1: don like eighty feet south to a big pine tree

107
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,919
Speaker 1: and left the body under the pine tree. It's in

108
00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,719
Speaker 1: Mark Ferman's book. He says that the wounds were such

109
00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:42,720
Speaker 1: that they would have would have been ouzing rather than

110
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,880
Speaker 1: gushing blood, so he believes the killer actually left her

111
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,120
Speaker 1: laying next to the Japanese maple for about half an

112
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,560
Speaker 1: hour and then came back and administered the kuda gras

113
00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,839
Speaker 1: with the handle and then dragged her away. For me,

114
00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,600
Speaker 1: that vastly changes the total zone of this thing, right,

115
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,800
Speaker 1: you know, because it's one thing to say, Okay, yeah,

116
00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:09,520
Speaker 1: somebody went a little crazy statement pretty quando crazy, and

117
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,479
Speaker 1: you know, beat this girl a lot, and you know,

118
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,719
Speaker 1: stabbed her and killed her and then dragged her body

119
00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,360
Speaker 1: to hide her, versus somebody beat this girl, left her

120
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,480
Speaker 1: and then came back and continued to do some like

121
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,599
Speaker 1: took a union break in the middle. Yeah, but but

122
00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,160
Speaker 1: of course I could I could be wrong about that too.

123
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,280
Speaker 1: He might have actually done all and she did all

124
00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 1: the bleeding there, and then he came back later decided

125
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 1: to move the body, but didn't actually attack her anymore.

126
00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 1: So we don't really know, yea. And the broken bits

127
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 1: of golf club where were they next to her body?

128
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,479
Speaker 1: So they were moved as well? No, no, we were

129
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 1: with the initial attacks. There were two of them were

130
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,320
Speaker 1: with the initial attacks side the circle in the driveway,

131
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,520
Speaker 1: and then one of them was fairly close to her body.

132
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:55,120
Speaker 1: It was a piece of shaft. And then the fourth

133
00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,479
Speaker 1: one was the handle itself was sticking out of her neck.

134
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,159
Speaker 1: Remember that to you, by the way, I looking at

135
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,800
Speaker 1: the golf club handle, because that becomes an important little

136
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 1: clue later on. Yeah, when much of this body was found,

137
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,800
Speaker 1: her jeans have been pulled down and her panties have

138
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,320
Speaker 1: been rolled down. She was faced down. There were two

139
00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 1: smears of blood on her in her thighs, and there

140
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 1: was no evidence of rape, by the way, or sexual

141
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,600
Speaker 1: assault of any kind, right really, Yeah, except for except

142
00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,520
Speaker 1: for the blood smears on our thighs, which we probably

143
00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,240
Speaker 1: put there by the murderer, you know, doing something, But

144
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,160
Speaker 1: he didn't actually complete any act or anything like that.

145
00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 1: I thought I had read that in the Corners report

146
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,640
Speaker 1: there was no signs of any kind of assault or

147
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,960
Speaker 1: trauma in her genital region. Yeah, it was that she

148
00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,320
Speaker 1: was she had not been, so either there was something

149
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,960
Speaker 1: like totally consensual that had happened, or that's I don't

150
00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,920
Speaker 1: I don't think about anything sexual activity. That there was

151
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:55,680
Speaker 1: some sexual activity earlier in the evening, but it wasn't earlier. Yeah,

152
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 1: but it wasn't full intercourse. And I think that that's

153
00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,200
Speaker 1: that's what it's probably what you're why it's it's coming

154
00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 1: up as Joseph, there's no assault that way, there's no

155
00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,120
Speaker 1: evidence of it, right, Yeah, I want to clarify that

156
00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,320
Speaker 1: as well. But yeah, that's but the fact that her

157
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,240
Speaker 1: panties were rolled down and the fact that they found

158
00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 1: blood spatter on the inside of the panties told the

159
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,840
Speaker 1: police and the medical examiner types that she had probably

160
00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,600
Speaker 1: been attacked by somebody that she knew, in fact, not

161
00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,560
Speaker 1: just not just somebody that she knew, was somebody that

162
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,120
Speaker 1: she'd be willing to roll her panties down for. So wait,

163
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 1: I don't understand how the blood on the inside of

164
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,880
Speaker 1: the panties leads to that that understanding, Well, because have

165
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 1: you beaten there with their pants up and everything, the

166
00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 1: blood would have gone all over her pants outside and

167
00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,400
Speaker 1: the outside of her pants. Not The point is her

168
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:44,840
Speaker 1: pants were down, and then she was treated as a pincushion. Yeah, okay,

169
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,640
Speaker 1: that's that's the distinction. I wasn't quite gidding. And I

170
00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,079
Speaker 1: think the further distinction on that is that it looked

171
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,559
Speaker 1: like she had done it, not that they had been

172
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,760
Speaker 1: like torn off her, so her pants weren't pulled double

173
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:56,760
Speaker 1: or anything crazy like I got it. I got it. Yeah,

174
00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,960
Speaker 1: So at this point I described that to described the murder.

175
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,040
Speaker 1: Let me tell about I'll tell you guys all about

176
00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,679
Speaker 1: our cast of characters. It's a big one. Yeah, there's

177
00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people involved in this story, and so

178
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,439
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to keep this to a manageable

179
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,040
Speaker 1: number of people. First of all, Martha's family, the Moxley's,

180
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,200
Speaker 1: they've been living in bell Haven. But then I mentioned

181
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,080
Speaker 1: this is in bell Haven, Connecticut. Bell Haven is a

182
00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,720
Speaker 1: like a neighborhood within Greenwich, Connecticut, and it's like the

183
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,600
Speaker 1: richest neighborhood in Greenwich, which is also, by the way,

184
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,920
Speaker 1: a fairly wealthy city. Itself. It's so it's posh. The

185
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,240
Speaker 1: aerial pictures of this is kind of one of those

186
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,040
Speaker 1: things where you look at it and you're like, how

187
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,800
Speaker 1: one yard is that a country club? Do people live there?

188
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:40,959
Speaker 1: I don't have that many pools tennis court and three pools? Okay,

189
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,440
Speaker 1: oh yeah, Well, like one of the one of the

190
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 1: families here, this SkELL family, they have this huge tract

191
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,000
Speaker 1: of land for an area where I'm sure land is

192
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,280
Speaker 1: incredibly expensive. They have like a tennis court and a

193
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,280
Speaker 1: chipping tea with two golf golf holes in and everything,

194
00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,720
Speaker 1: and in a swimming pool and it's just just this

195
00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 1: big area, this meadow to wander around in and huge

196
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,160
Speaker 1: house and yeah, it must be nice. Yeah. So basically

197
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,200
Speaker 1: this is the kind of neighborhood where they wouldn't let

198
00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,360
Speaker 1: you buy a house. They would specifically, but it's also

199
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,439
Speaker 1: the kind of neighborhood where like, really horrible murders don't happen,

200
00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,760
Speaker 1: not very often. Now. Yeah, Maxes had been there about

201
00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,680
Speaker 1: a year and a half. Moxyes were David and Dorothy.

202
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,840
Speaker 1: That's mom and dad. They had two kids, John and Martha.

203
00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,280
Speaker 1: At the time of the murder, John was seventeen and Martha,

204
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,880
Speaker 1: his little sister was fifteen. Across the street to the

205
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,760
Speaker 1: north across Walsh Lane was a large piece of land

206
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,560
Speaker 1: on whether Skagles again with a big, big house and

207
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,679
Speaker 1: lots of other cool stuff on it. And Russians Sr.

208
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,480
Speaker 1: Also known as Ruckie Um was a winner with seven kids.

209
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,320
Speaker 1: He had six sons and one daughter. Yeah. Russo's kids

210
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:50,600
Speaker 1: were Rushton Jr. A k A. Rush Julie, John, Tommy, Michael, David,

211
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 1: and Stephen USA. But the two characters out of all

212
00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,800
Speaker 1: the all the siblings to really remember, Tommy and Michael

213
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,040
Speaker 1: middle boys, Yeah, because they were the They were the

214
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,800
Speaker 1: ones who became the suspects. Tommy, of course was was

215
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,640
Speaker 1: the major suspect and his murdered for years and then

216
00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,960
Speaker 1: in the late nineties, Mark Firman wrote his book Murdering Greenwich,

217
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,840
Speaker 1: which pointed the finger at Michael. Michael Skea was eventually

218
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 1: convicted of Martha's murder in two thousand two and he

219
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,360
Speaker 1: was sentenced to twenty years to life. Do you know

220
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,200
Speaker 1: how how old those boys were? Uh, Michael at the

221
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 1: time was fifteen and Tommy was seventeen. Then Michael, by

222
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,280
Speaker 1: the way, was a Ronto. He was like five five

223
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,600
Speaker 1: ft two at the time, waited about twenty pounds. Actually

224
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,280
Speaker 1: he actually grew up and became a big guy, but

225
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,840
Speaker 1: at the time he was pretty small. Maybe he's small

226
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,040
Speaker 1: to committed murder. I don't know, Well, I don't know

227
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,600
Speaker 1: of fifteen year old girls, not exactly. I don't think

228
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,920
Speaker 1: Martha was exactly hulking now she was. She was actually

229
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,560
Speaker 1: about about as tall as Michael at the time. Michael

230
00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,840
Speaker 1: said late when many years later than that, if he

231
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 1: had attacked her, she would have kicked his ass. I'd

232
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,360
Speaker 1: actually also mentioned one other major character in this story,

233
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 1: which is Ken Littleton. He was hired by Rush Senior

234
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,079
Speaker 1: to look after the Sco kids and also to be

235
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 1: a living tutor to Tommy and Michael because their mother

236
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,600
Speaker 1: had passed away. Yeah past Friday. There was not much

237
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,719
Speaker 1: in the way parental supervision. She died about three years

238
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,720
Speaker 1: because from cancer. So yeah, he was kind of like

239
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,360
Speaker 1: living nanny basically, right. He cleaned, he took the kids out,

240
00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 1: but he also tutor. Now they actually had other servants

241
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:22,880
Speaker 1: that did the cookie and the cleaning, but he took

242
00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 1: the kids out, He took them out, and he was

243
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 1: he was there to provide a little supervision and tutor

244
00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,640
Speaker 1: Tommy and Michael. I think the politically correct term is staff.

245
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:37,480
Speaker 1: They had a lot of servants. Must be great house staff. Okay,

246
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:43,000
Speaker 1: so Ken Ken's first day on the job was October Yeah,

247
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,400
Speaker 1: when he moved into the scake house, and talk about

248
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,760
Speaker 1: your bad timing. He's kind of like the maid in

249
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,720
Speaker 1: the hinter Kai fact case. Remember that. Yeah, it shows

250
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,440
Speaker 1: up the day of That turned him into a major

251
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,600
Speaker 1: suspect for years, and police harassed him and tried to

252
00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,160
Speaker 1: try to get him on this for years, and they

253
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,840
Speaker 1: did everything from his telephone and and cooking up sketchy

254
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,000
Speaker 1: deals with his ex wife to try to get hurt,

255
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,520
Speaker 1: get him to implicate himself and on. And I I

256
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,080
Speaker 1: just feel like your first day on the job, really like,

257
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,160
Speaker 1: who's going to go out and kill somebody the first

258
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,240
Speaker 1: day on the job? The girl that lives literally across

259
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,440
Speaker 1: the street on the first day of the job. Really

260
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 1: really like, I might not understand the impulse of um,

261
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,320
Speaker 1: you know, serial killers or anything like that, but really

262
00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:28,360
Speaker 1: it's on the list of things not to do on

263
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,880
Speaker 1: day one, just like getting drunk the night before your

264
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,760
Speaker 1: your first day on the job, not something you do.

265
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,120
Speaker 1: Dyeing your hair a crazy color or crazy cuts. Things

266
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,319
Speaker 1: you don't do. Murdering the neighbor girl also also a thing.

267
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,720
Speaker 1: Don't do it now, I know, I know. And there's

268
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,000
Speaker 1: actually even though he was such a major, there's actually

269
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,959
Speaker 1: no evidence that he ever even met Martha. Yeah, but yeah,

270
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:53,800
Speaker 1: they hunted him down. But they did this with all

271
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 1: of their suspects. Oh yeah, they were asked a lot

272
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,480
Speaker 1: of people. They went after everybody. They thought it could

273
00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,400
Speaker 1: be super hard and frankly they did some some kind

274
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 1: of sketchy things. The police did talk a little bit

275
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 1: more about that later. But anyway, Ken had his life

276
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,640
Speaker 1: went really downhill after the murder, and there he had

277
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,000
Speaker 1: a lot of drug drug and alcohol abuse and that

278
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,960
Speaker 1: some mental illness and stuff. And it's hard to say,

279
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 1: you know, he had a promising future at that time,

280
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 1: but then that stuff might have happened anyway. He might

281
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:27,600
Speaker 1: have known habits and the drug habits. And how old

282
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,200
Speaker 1: was he when it happened. He was twenty foward. He

283
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,640
Speaker 1: was teaching at Brunswick School, which is a very exclusive

284
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 1: private school in bell Haven or not. I don't think

285
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:37,760
Speaker 1: it's in bell Haven, but it's not far away. And

286
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,120
Speaker 1: where Tommy and Michael were both going to school. So

287
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,080
Speaker 1: it's one of those places where the rich people senior

288
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,720
Speaker 1: their kids to school. So Ken had a good future

289
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,520
Speaker 1: ahead of them. Oh and one last thing you need

290
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 1: to know about the Skego family. They were related to

291
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 1: the Kennedy's as in you know John F. Kennedy and

292
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,240
Speaker 1: Robert F. Kennedy and all that Russian ske Senior ruk

293
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,280
Speaker 1: Ruckie the dad was the brother of Ethel Skeko who

294
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,840
Speaker 1: married Robert F. Kennedy Senior. And you remembered him. He

295
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,320
Speaker 1: was He was JFK's brother and he was assassinated in Yeah,

296
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,400
Speaker 1: that's and so Tommy and Michael ske Are cousins of

297
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 1: RFK Jr. Which is why he wrote the book. And

298
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,640
Speaker 1: obviously he doesn't believe Michael committed the merger. He's got

299
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,880
Speaker 1: he's got a vested interest in having his family be

300
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:24,280
Speaker 1: cleared of this murder. He's been good buddies with Michael

301
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,600
Speaker 1: for many years and and uh and he but he

302
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,720
Speaker 1: presents some some actual pretty compelling evidence and so but

303
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that. And one of the most recent

304
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,120
Speaker 1: twists in the case is in a Connecticut judge named

305
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,880
Speaker 1: Thomas Bishop. Throughout Michael Skegle's conviction and ordered a new

306
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,800
Speaker 1: trial based on the argument of incompetence of counsel. Michael's

307
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,040
Speaker 1: attorney for his two thousand two trial was a guy

308
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,760
Speaker 1: named Mickey Sherman, and RFK has some pretty harsh words

309
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 1: for him in his book. I don't know if you

310
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 1: guys read the book or not. No, I skimmed it.

311
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,920
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. I we had so much

312
00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 1: stuff going on. I didn't. Yeah, that's two books I was.

313
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:05,160
Speaker 1: I was stuck in so I did not. I'm sorry.

314
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 1: That's okay. Uh, Mickey's defense. I have to say that

315
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 1: even if he didn't cross every t I still really

316
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 1: don't see how the prosecution in this case got a conviction.

317
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,960
Speaker 1: It seemed like a lot of it was circumstantial. Well,

318
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,040
Speaker 1: yeah it was. There was no physical evidence. I mean,

319
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,920
Speaker 1: there was linking him to the crime. There was some

320
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,480
Speaker 1: physical evidence at the crime scene. One of the things

321
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 1: I forgot to mention, by the way, that the golf

322
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,320
Speaker 1: club handle that was sticking out of her neck. Yeah,

323
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,040
Speaker 1: two police officers and one doctor saw that thing. The

324
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,200
Speaker 1: police officers sought sticking out of her neck, and a

325
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,200
Speaker 1: doctor who was examining the body to make sure she

326
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 1: was actually dead, saw it laying on the ground next

327
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,040
Speaker 1: to her body. So it looks like somebody pulled Yeah, yeah,

328
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,720
Speaker 1: so he so it should have been in until Yeah,

329
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 1: he probably should have been it. You can see, you

330
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 1: can understand why somebody might want to pull it out,

331
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,200
Speaker 1: but they didn't. The police didn't actually do a great

332
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 1: job of securing the crime scene. And apparently there were

333
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,280
Speaker 1: a lot of people hanging around. Yeah, I know, yeah

334
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 1: it was they the Greenwich ailie had not actually investigated

335
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,119
Speaker 1: a murder in decades, and obviously it never happens in

336
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,000
Speaker 1: that town, and so it just wasn't there kind of thing,

337
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,640
Speaker 1: and so they didn't really. There was other stuff found

338
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,480
Speaker 1: near the body of a pair of jeans with a

339
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,080
Speaker 1: size thirty six waist that was all soaked in blood

340
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,440
Speaker 1: was found near the body. Some beer cans were found,

341
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,120
Speaker 1: a golf ball, and all that evidence was apparently collected

342
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,040
Speaker 1: but but lost. Yeah, well, please lose stuff. I mean,

343
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,679
Speaker 1: it happens, I mean, but usually not like key pieces

344
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 1: of evidence. You know about dB Cooper's cigarette butts, Right, Devin,

345
00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:39,600
Speaker 1: Remember this is twenty seven years later by that point,

346
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,960
Speaker 1: when when this case comes up. All I can say

347
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: is that I hope that when I'm blundened to death

348
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,520
Speaker 1: and they find some soaked genes in my blood next

349
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,919
Speaker 1: to the body, they hold onto those until like hundred

350
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 1: years later. We will we will go ahead and store

351
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 1: them in Joe's basement, because everything is in Joe's basement

352
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,440
Speaker 1: and it never leaves perfect. That's a great spot. I

353
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,800
Speaker 1: hate throwing stuff out. Yeah, they had the most important piece,

354
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 1: of course, that I was saying was the golf club handle,

355
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,320
Speaker 1: and and the prosecution in Michael's trial managed to spend

356
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,120
Speaker 1: that fact that that this this thing was missing as

357
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,159
Speaker 1: the killer took it with him when he left the

358
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,240
Speaker 1: crime scene. Right. Wait wait, wait, wait wait, wait back up.

359
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 1: So we have witnesses that see it in her initially

360
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 1: and then on the ground next to her later, and

361
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 1: then when it's disappeared twenty seven years later, that's because

362
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,439
Speaker 1: the killer took it out of the body with them

363
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 1: at the time of the murder. Yeah, that is the

364
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 1: dumbest thing I've heard all day. Well, you know, I

365
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,920
Speaker 1: read I didn't have time to read the entire transcript

366
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 1: of the entire thing of the entire trial, but I

367
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,679
Speaker 1: read the summations of both the prosecution and the defense,

368
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,800
Speaker 1: and so they went to all their arguments and talked

369
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 1: about all the evidence. So, you know, I really didn't

370
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,120
Speaker 1: need to read the entire trial transcript. It was all there.

371
00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,119
Speaker 1: All the arguments were there, and the execution's theory was

372
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,920
Speaker 1: a little strange. And they talked about the gulf the

373
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 1: missing murder weapon, because the thing about it is is

374
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,200
Speaker 1: this was what's called the brand on this golf club

375
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 1: is Tony Panna. Apparently they're not It's not a really

376
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,680
Speaker 1: common brand. And it had been owned by by Russian

377
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 1: Senior's wife Ann, who had died, and every every every

378
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 1: one of the clubs was embossed with her name, said

379
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 1: Mrs R. K. Skagill. And but by the way, was

380
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 1: that in the was that carved into the metal or

381
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 1: was that in the rubber of the handle? I believe

382
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 1: it was in the medal? Yeah, And so so that

383
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,320
Speaker 1: the prosecution's theory was that the killer must have been

384
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 1: a skag because it would have been somebody from somebody else.

385
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,960
Speaker 1: Then they wouldn't have had an interest in taking that

386
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 1: handle away because because it wouldn't be embossed with their

387
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: mother's name on it. Yeah. Yeah, and so obviously he

388
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 1: took that, he took the fact that this thing was

389
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 1: not in evidence that obviously that points a guilty finger

390
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 1: at somebody in the Skag family. I could see that,

391
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 1: except I also seemed to remember that these teenagers being teenagers,

392
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 1: left stuff lying around all the time, and if I

393
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,560
Speaker 1: remember correctly, wasn't it it wasn't uncommon to see several

394
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 1: of the clubs just sitting on the on their property,

395
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 1: just hanging out. It wasn't as if they were always

396
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 1: put away and cared for. Yeah, that's that's that's true.

397
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 1: I mean they were apparently, so it's not as if

398
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 1: it was under lock and key and only by having

399
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 1: access to the home could you get one of those.

400
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 1: So now we have really good arguments for why the

401
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 1: case has been overturned. Yeah, so sorry, Yeah, but actually

402
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 1: Michael is not totally out of the woods. Obviously, the

403
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,639
Speaker 1: prosecutors appealed his decision, and and they but it was

404
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 1: upheld on appeal, and now it's in front of the

405
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 1: Connecticut Supreme Court, and we should be hearing any day

406
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 1: now whether Michael gets to remain free or if he's

407
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 1: going to go back to prison, or if he's going

408
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,120
Speaker 1: to get a new trial, and I think that he's

409
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:53,880
Speaker 1: not gonna get I don't think they're going to retry him.

410
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,639
Speaker 1: I would be amazed. Yeah. Yeah, it's incredible. The number

411
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,159
Speaker 1: of people who are serving serious time for crimes that

412
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: they literally didn't commited. Happens a lot more often they'd

413
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 1: like to think. It really does, Yeah, which is scary

414
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,639
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah. It just goes to show you when

415
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 1: anything like this happens, to be really careful what you

416
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,880
Speaker 1: say to the police. Yeah, this is why I was. Yeah.

417
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 1: Just yeah, that doesn't look guilty at all. Yeah, you

418
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: just got it, you know. Dump them in a swamp somewhere. Yeah,

419
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 1: that's it. Take them up to the marshes on tape. Yeah.

420
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: You know. Actually there's a book on how to get

421
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: rid of dead bodies. Yeah, I've seen it on your bookshelf.

422
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 1: I guess i'd better hide that. Let's go back to

423
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 1: the previous night. October thirty is ken Littleton pork In

424
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 1: first day in the job. He took the scgle kids

425
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,479
Speaker 1: to the bell Haven Club, which is one of those

426
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: super exclusive places that wouldn't let somebody like me join

427
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: because you wouldn't be able to own a house there,

428
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, I've seen aerials and stuff of it,

429
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 1: and it looks like a pretty possible club. They returned

430
00:21:55,400 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: to the chicle house about Martha Moxley had left her

431
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: house across the street around sixty seven, joined up with

432
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: their friends Helen X and Jeff Byrne. October thirty in

433
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: Belhaven is what's called Mischief Knight. Apparently, Mischief Night happens

434
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: in a lot of places. I mean, it's never a

435
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: really better thing in places that I've lived, I've heard

436
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: of it. It's it's common enough that though I never

437
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: was in an area that it happened or partook in it,

438
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: I knew of it. Yeah. Yeah, but that's Halloween Eve

439
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: and the tradition of the neighborhood is for the kids

440
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 1: to go out and and bull pranks. You know, they

441
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 1: like ring people's doorbells and run away and like a

442
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: bag of dog poo and run away. That's a good one. Yeah.

443
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 1: Houses and trees and houses, yes, egg cars stuff, Oh

444
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: my god. I know one time when I was home

445
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,959
Speaker 1: alone without my parents over a Halloween, somebody egged our

446
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 1: house and they were like gone, you know, and I

447
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: didn't know how to deal with it, and it was

448
00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: the worst and I had no idea. Uh well, now

449
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: you know, and for anybody who's listening, the first thing

450
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: you do is get out the garden hoses starting hosing

451
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: off the house because it's gonna stick. Yeah, and also

452
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: it can wreck your pain job in your car, so

453
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: you gotta get cleaned. Yeah. Yeah. All these hijaks were

454
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: accepted with good humor by the local homeowners because, after all,

455
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 1: they were rich, so they weren't cleaning up the mess

456
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 1: house needed a new paint job again anyway, big deal,

457
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,239
Speaker 1: right shack you kind of you kind of wonder if

458
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: that's the sort of tradition that gets started by the

459
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: staff or like painters, you know where they're like, you

460
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: should go to egg that house. So I found out

461
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: how to get onto that that property and go ahead

462
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: and just egg every house you can because I need

463
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 1: we need some work winners coming. It's gonna be slow. Yeah,

464
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: oh yeah. And they were always in the Bell Haven,

465
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: by the way, if you were on foot, it's just

466
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: that if you're on car, they had these guardhouses and

467
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 1: gates at the you know, at the community. Yeah, it's

468
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: like that in every community. No, no gated community is

469
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: completely sealed off. Oh no, it can't be. Yeah, So

470
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: Martha Moxley, along with her friends Helen and Jeff, stopped

471
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: by the Scag House um since they were buddies with

472
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: Tommy and Michael. But of course Tommy and Michael weren't there.

473
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: They were at the bell of Haven Club with Canon Littleton.

474
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: They laughed, but they returned a little after nine pm,

475
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: and Michael took them out to the family's Lincoln Continental

476
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 1: in the driveway and they all climbed in and started

477
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: listening to eight track tapes and smoking cigarettes. The eight track.

478
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: We eight track? That the worst format ever. Have you

479
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: ever listened to an eight track tape? They never stopped,

480
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: They just well, I think the thing that drives you

481
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 1: crazy is it always happens in the middle of your

482
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: favorite song on the tape. You're going along along, there's

483
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: all of a sudden dead and then you just jump

484
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: and standing, reverses and starts playing back the other direction. Yeah,

485
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: terrible format. Don't buy an eight track. Well, they're pretty

486
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: they're still pretty popular. I'm sure everybody's good at one

487
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: there called eight tracks dot Com. Oh really, is it

488
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: like the Museum of eight Tracks? No, you just make playlists,

489
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: got it? Okay, that's my only experience with eight tracks.

490
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: You've never actually seen one in real life, too young. Yeah,

491
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: so you see that book right there, that that's the

492
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: size of an eight track because big big cartridges. Yeah

493
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: that was anyway, your young kids today don't know how

494
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: good you got it with your fancy iPod. Okay, So Martha, Tommy,

495
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: and Michael are in the Lincoln. Yeah, back to our thing.

496
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: Well yeah, well the four of them were almost and

497
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 1: then yeah, Tommy comes out of the house supposedly to

498
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: get one of those hawk and big tapes out of

499
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: the car, and he wind up joining them in the car.

500
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: But then not long after that, around Rush Junior brother,

501
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: yeah the oldest one, and his cousin Jim terry and

502
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: came out and told them they were gonna have to

503
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: get out of the car because they needed to take

504
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: Jim to his house, which was about when eleven miles away. Michael,

505
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: by the way, had been planning to go to the

506
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: terry In's house because apparently Rush Junior had seen an EPI.

507
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: So do Monty Python's flying surface. He was in a

508
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: test group. He was he was away at college at

509
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: Princeton or somewhere like that or Yale or something, and

510
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: apparently he'd gotten that chance to see this and he

511
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: thought it was really awesome. It was Monty Pythons flying

512
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: Surface was a great show. Yes it was weird, but

513
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: it was fun. Yeah, it was totally off the wall,

514
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: but it was great. But apparently that it was the

515
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: American premiere of the Flying Circus was taking place that night,

516
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: and so they were going to all just go back

517
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: to the Harrians and hang out and drink a beer

518
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: and watch it. Because this was the time when you

519
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: couldn't just DVR it and watch it later. You had

520
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: to see it then or you weren't going to see

521
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: it again. Pretty much. I guess maybe I don't know

522
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: why they couldn't just stay there. I'm going to guess

523
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: that it was Wow what it would it was seventy

524
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: five cable access. It had to be antenna TV, but

525
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: it might have been a station issue. In other words,

526
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: they may not have gotten the same station at one

527
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: house to the next based on the antenna set up. Yeah,

528
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: it could have been that in a neighborhood. Like even

529
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: I assume that they have everything you would think, but

530
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: you're it's it's antenna television. You might be rich, but

531
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,239
Speaker 1: you can't change air waves, So that could have been

532
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: It could have been something as simple as they were

533
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: just going to kill two birds with one stone. Jimmy

534
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: had to be home at a certain time, and then

535
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 1: you know, he had a massive stash of weeds. Yea,

536
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: his parents weren't home. Yeah, they didn't know if Kenna

537
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: let them drink yeah, uh oney, way, Michael, before Martha

538
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: exited the car, asked her if she wanted to come along,

539
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: but she said she couldn't because she had a nine curfew.

540
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: So then Tommy and Martha, Helen and Jeff get out

541
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: of the car. Michael stays in Russ, John and Jim

542
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: climb and they leave for Jim's house, which is called

543
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: Cirsam Corda. I'm sorry what Corda? No, I'm sorry. I

544
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: was more reacting to the fact that his home has

545
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: a name. I know, I know because his Jimmy, Terry

546
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: and his family is also really sticking rich and they

547
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: had imagine so huge when they get to a certain

548
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: size to get to have a name of their own.

549
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,239
Speaker 1: I really got to come up with a name from

550
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: my house. Yeah, and then put it on Google I

551
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: think your in your house has a name already. Pee

552
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: what I don't even make sense. I was going to

553
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: say something way less flattering. Okay. So that left Tommy, Martha, Helen,

554
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: and Jeff standing in the driveway, and apparently, according to

555
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: what Helen and Jeff said to the police afterwards, Tommy

556
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: and Martha were engaging in flirtatious behavior with one another

557
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: and it was kind of making them uncomfortable. Is that

558
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: an euphemism for flirtatious behavior? Yeah, like, were they like

559
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: going at it. They were just flirting. They were flirting

560
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 1: and there was a little a little pushing and horseplay

561
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. It's always weird to me when

562
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: fellow teenagers are like it was making me uncomfortable. Yeah,

563
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: it was like, actually felt like a third wheel. Well,

564
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: I was just saying, as as a dude watching another

565
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: dude hitting on a girl and he might be maybe

566
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: getting some traction. It's weird you're just standing there and

567
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: you can't have a conversation because every time you make

568
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: a joke they ignore you. It's it's awkward. Yeah, like

569
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: I said, Helen's hell, I felt like a third she said,

570
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: and so that and she had to care for you anyway,

571
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: nine thirtyes, so she took off one with Jeff And

572
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: so that means Tommy was the last known person to

573
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: see Martha alive to seventh Michael's fifteen there was and

574
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: that's that's one reason he was a suspect for so long. Yeah,

575
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: Tommy was. So this was about nine twenty and Tommy

576
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: told police the following day after her body was found.

577
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: The police came by the Sago household and they interviewed

578
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: everybody there that afternoon. But yeah, oh yeah, he said

579
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: that he and Martha chatted for a little while, that

580
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: she left around nine thirty and then she went back

581
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: and said the house to work on a report for

582
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: school about Abraham Lincoln, which turned out to be a lie.

583
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, yeah, I guess. Police check to Tommy's school.

584
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: They found out Tommy hadn't been assigned any such report. Uh.

585
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: And also Cam Littleton, the tutor he was also supposed

586
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: to be keep an eye of kids. He did a

587
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: bed check, uh and about five and uh he said

588
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: that Tommy wasn't there. Tommy said that while he stepped

589
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: across the hallway to a guest room to get a

590
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: book for his report, he stayed there to work on it.

591
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: Probably probably also another line um that was just big enough.

592
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: Though he could have theoretically been anywhere, he just wasn't

593
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: in bed. Yeah, yeah, just it just wasn't his bed.

594
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: And he changed his story in summer the summer of two.

595
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: More about that later. But he was with Martha longer

596
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: than he actually said, six seventeen years, okay, yeah, yeah,

597
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: it's been a while that he finally changed his story.

598
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: A lot of people in this story. A lot of

599
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: people change their stories in this one. I mean a lot,

600
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: I guess. I mean it does. We're talking about like kids, really, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,

601
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,959
Speaker 1: Like these people are kids, and they may not totally understand.

602
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: Especially I'm sorry if any of our listeners are, you know,

603
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: super rich, but like the super rich kids that I've

604
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: ever met really have that mentality of like like like

605
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: I'll get away with it doesn't matter, or they don't

606
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: understand the like severity of if you're fifteen and you're

607
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: trying to not get in trouble for like sleeping with

608
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: a girl, you're not necessarily going to be like, oh, yeah,

609
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: well we had sex, and then you know this, Maybe

610
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: it's not the accurate example, right, But you're not going

611
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: to say, oh, yeah, we had sex and then I

612
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: came home. You're going to say like, no, no, no,

613
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: I'm perfect. Right, And then what fourteen fifteen years later,

614
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: when you kind of realized like, oh, not that that

615
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: was dumb, you might come out and admit that. I mean, yeah,

616
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: it's shady, but it's not such a huge problem to me.

617
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: I guess, well, yeah, now there's that. Well we'll talk

618
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: a little bit more about that. But yeah, he he was.

619
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: What turns out it really was with Martha for about

620
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: twenty minutes longer than he said, which pushing with Martha

621
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: were right about the time of the murder or right

622
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: up to it one timeline, Yeah, according to one, I

623
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: mean what I meantime, of course, Russ Junior, John and

624
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: Michael were over Jimmy Terran's watching Monty Python and they

625
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: got back home around and twenty pm, And they gave

626
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: that statement to the police on the thirty first, and

627
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: Michael la later changed his story to which is what

628
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: landed him in jail. Eventually, at the same time that

629
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: the skateboys got home, John Moxley's markin Who's Martha's Brother seventeen,

630
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: also arrived home and his mother, Dorothy, told him that

631
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: Martha wasn't home yet and that she was wordy worried.

632
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: And I saw an interview with John on Unsolved Mystery.

633
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: It was done years after. There's a little bit of

634
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: humor in this. I like, yeah, yeah, and he said

635
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: that when she first said that, his initial reaction was,

636
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: and I'm paraphrasing everything, he said, well, well, for once,

637
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: it's a little bits perfect his home lade, not me unquote,

638
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: which obviously it was not a good thing after the fact,

639
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: but yeah, And I'm making note of that because a

640
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: lot has been made about Martha's curfew and how scrupulous

641
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: she was about obeying her coup curfew kind of a

642
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: big bone of contention, because if she would have or curfew,

643
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: she was obedient to a curfew, she would not have

644
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: stayed out until way, way late, right, in order to

645
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: be murdered by Michael. Well, God, with maybe like one exception, right,

646
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: I mean right, I mean you can say this was

647
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: the first time she stayed up late. Yeah, it could

648
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: were the one of the first times. Yeah. Well, there's

649
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: a lot of arguing about that. Mark Ferman claims his

650
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: book that she had violated her curfew by many hours

651
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: just a week before. But he doesn't sign any actual

652
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: sources for that or documentation. That's gonna say. I'm glad

653
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: you said sources because in your script you say documentation,

654
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: and that's like my favorite thing. Like Dorothy the mom

655
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: was sitting there, you know, with a nightly Bob ten

656
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: fifty four pm, Martha still not home. Yeah, I didn't

657
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: mean that kind of thing. I just said, he doesn't

658
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,239
Speaker 1: say where he got Yeah, yeah, right, No, I mean

659
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: I think you know, again, it's like she's fifteen. She's

660
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: probably starting to push the bounds of her curfew a

661
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: little bit. Seems like maybe it's an early curfew, and

662
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: especially on a night like that or if she was

663
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: getting involved with someone or something like that, she may

664
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: be trying to test it a little bit. Um, But

665
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: staying out till two in the morning, I'm not so sure. Well, yeah,

666
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: probably not staying out til two in the morning, and

667
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: probably not like all the time, you know, like once

668
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: every couple of weeks by a half hour. It's it's

669
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: it's it's relevant just to the establishment of the time

670
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: of death. Yeah, so what is what is the official

671
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: time of death? Well, the police said it at ten pm,

672
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: right around to maybe ten to maybe his latest ten fifteen.

673
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,439
Speaker 1: They're using a kind of a half hour window, yeah,

674
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: right in there. And the reason they're putting it at

675
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: that is that the X dog, Helen X, lived across

676
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 1: Walsh Lane in in a nice big mansion. Of course,

677
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: she and her family lived across Walsh Lane to the

678
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: north and they had an Australian shepherd named Zach and

679
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: apparently Zach was a bit of a barker, but that night,

680
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: at about nine pm, he started barking really furiously and

681
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: super intensely, and so that's it's thinking, this thought that

682
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: the assault was beginning right about the time when he

683
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: started barking. Yeah, the dog did bark. Yeah. Also there's

684
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: Mark Berman, the decided and said that he thought he

685
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: she had violated a curfew by a lot because he

686
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to expand the time window for

687
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: the time of death. And I you know what, I

688
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 1: kind of agree with him a little bit. I think

689
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: that the police is reasoning for this timeline is like

690
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: weird to well, actually, the police, the police want and

691
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: got themselves one of the primary forests medical examiners in

692
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: the country guy, the guy from Houston, Texas who had

693
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: done thousands of not tens of thousands of murders and

694
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: everything and and presented all everything though the autopsy reports

695
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: and and all the reports about dogs barking and everything else.

696
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: And he's at the time of death at ten PM.

697
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: So it wasn't just the local grainichpdo did this? I mean,

698
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: did that based on contents? Well that's the part that

699
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: kind of gives me a bit of a pause. Well, yeah,

700
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: because Martha had had a grilled cheese sandwich about six

701
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: thirty six thirty, so that was gone from her stomach.

702
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: So the stomach takes two to four hours to clear food,

703
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: so that means she could easily have been killed around ten.

704
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: But her stomach also had three ounces of fluid in it,

705
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: and she had had a coke at the Skags, or

706
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: at least part of a coke, and the stomach obviously

707
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 1: clears liquids a lot faster than it clears solids, and

708
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: so she's still So the fact that she still had

709
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: that after drinking all a part of a coke at

710
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: the Skkles indicates that she was not murdered hours and

711
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: hours and hours after unless she had been somewhere for

712
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: hours and hours and then drank three or four ounces

713
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: of something which would then be in her stomach. There's

714
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,959
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of there is. The logic isn't

715
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: completely perfect because it assumes that that coke at the

716
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: Skeggles was the very last thing she drank. You don't

717
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: know what she was out and about doing. I also

718
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: but that the reason I think the time at the

719
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: time of death was around Tin is that if she

720
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: was seen anywhere, if she was out and about, she

721
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: was a sociable person. She wouldn't have just wandered around

722
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: the darkness and not met up with somebody, and she

723
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: would have been seen by somebody, and she wasn't about

724
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 1: not by anybody. Um And so that's my major reason

725
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: for thinking that she could not have dropped somewhere else.

726
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: Right around Tin was the time of death. This, this

727
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: whole thing actually has me asking this very morbid question

728
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: of like, yeah, but when you're going undergoing um an assault,

729
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: like a really severe assault like she underwent, is your

730
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: body still processing food? Right? Is your body still processing liquid?

731
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 1: So like, if she was being beat over the period

732
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: of you know, ten to fifteen minutes, does that affect

733
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: the time. That's just something that like popped into my

734
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: head to read. That doesn't change the timeline that much.

735
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: But I just started to think about that as a

736
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: really maccab question, as they should ask one of our

737
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: experts about what I was about to suggest. Yeah, yeah,

738
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: I don't know a good question. So listeners, if you

739
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: weren't just like totally turned off by that and you

740
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: had the answer, email us, please do Back to the

741
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: night of the thirtieth, Dorothy Moxley fell asleep in her

742
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: cach that's Martha's mom, remember, and we woke up around

743
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: one thirty. Martha still wasn't home, and Dorothy was getting

744
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 1: pretty worried by this time, so she wakes John up

745
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: uh and asked him to go out looking for Martha,

746
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 1: and John said he drove around for a few hours

747
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: looking but found a sign of Martha and anyone home

748
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: and went to sleep in the TV room in the

749
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: basement apparently. And during this time Dorothy is calling all

750
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 1: around for basically anybody that knows Martha and called the

751
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: called the scats obviously in a lot of other people.

752
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: And this is the next morning, this is the wee

753
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: hours of October two I'm sure they were all really

754
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: happy about Yeah, I'm sure they were. I'm sure they

755
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: were understanding about it. Actually had reason to be scared,

756
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 1: you know that. And then about eight thirty in the

757
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: morning of the thirty one, Roarthy went over to the

758
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 1: skate goes to ask if they had seen Martha. Michael

759
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: Ska had fallen asleep in his clothes on his bed,

760
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: and when Dorothy saw him, she said that he was

761
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: pale and looked a little fraid around the edges, but

762
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: he had had a lot to drink the night before.

763
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: I didn't maybe mention what. They went to the bell

764
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: the bell Haven Cloud, they drank alcohol and stuff and

765
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: continue to drink after they got back to the house.

766
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: As teenagers, they don't know what they're doing. Yeah, oh no,

767
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: they know what they're doing. Getting drunk is what they're doing.

768
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: They don't know what they're doing when Yeah, well, yeah,

769
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: so Michael had just woken up, and so he and

770
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: he was wearing his clothes. He was wearing his clothes

771
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: from the night before. Yeah, so he had passed out, Yeah,

772
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: he passed out. He was They took his shoes off

773
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: and then just conked out. But also, like i'd like

774
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: to clarify he was wearing his clothes from the night before.

775
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: He wasn't like missing his blood soaked pants somewhere now.

776
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if he was wearing the

777
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 1: exact same clothes that he was wearing the night and

778
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: that night before when he went over to the Terran's

779
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: house he was wearing clothes. Theoretically he was wearing the

780
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: same clothes if he will went to sleeping is closed though, Yeah, probably,

781
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: and theory, I mean, there's no reason to come home,

782
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: take off your bloodstained clothes and then and then get

783
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: redressed and go to bed. Yeah, you would put your

784
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: PJS on probably, or just you know, go to bed

785
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: in your underwear or something. Anyway, Michael searched the house

786
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: and the grounds of the end of the house, and

787
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: then their gardener, Franz, and the teen wentn't checked their RV.

788
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: They had this r V called a rev Con. I

789
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: don't know what brand that is, but check that because oh,

790
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was the best there was. Yeah, but

791
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: apparently you know she uh, well, apparently Martha and the

792
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: kids like to party in the rev can occasionally, so

793
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: that was worth checking. But Martha was not there, so

794
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: about noon. Martha's friend, Sheila McGuire, who was also fifteen uh,

795
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: and she lived in the house just to the south

796
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: of the Moxley house. He was cutting across the Moxley

797
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: yard headed towards Walsh Lane. Once she spotted Martha's body

798
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: under the big pine tree. And so she goes to

799
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: the Moxley house to tell them what she's seen, because

800
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: by the I didn't mention, by the way, the whole

801
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: neighborhood knows. By this time, and the whole neighborho was

802
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: out because they were woken up at like three o'clock

803
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: in the morning. Yeah, yeah, So a lot of people

804
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: were out looking for Martha, and and then she just

805
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: happens to find her by accident. You'll be happy to know.

806
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: She was never a suspect, by the way, and that

807
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: of course the police are called. Then again, the first

808
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 1: two Greenish policemen have showed up, confirmed that she was dead,

809
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: called for more troops, and then again they noticed the

810
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: handle of the golf club sticking out of her neck.

811
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 1: And in fact, one of them mentioned it to his

812
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: wife that night when he got home. Yeah yeah, and

813
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: she remembered him saying that too. It's pretty crazily. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

814
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 1: it's pretty brutal murder. And of course the Moxley family

815
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: doctor was called in to confirm her that she was

816
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: actually dead, and he noticed the golf club handle laying

817
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: in the ground next to Martha. Um, so he can

818
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: remember the golf club handle. And Dorothy, for her part,

819
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 1: did not go outside is to view Martha's body understandably. Yeah, yeah,

820
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: she didn't want she didn't want that to be her

821
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: last memory of Martha. You know, I can't blame it

822
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: for that. And the initial theory by the police of

823
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: the people who Granwich was that it was committed by

824
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: some random transient who had wandered through the neighborhood. So

825
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: we're not quite there, but that was that was the

826
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: initial theory. It was the police. Yeah, I mean that

827
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: was what everybody because everybody thought, I mean, oh my god,

828
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: this is this is Belle Haven, Connecticut, this is like,

829
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: these are the best people in hon earth. There's no

830
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,439
Speaker 1: murderers living in our town. But maybe there was. Of course,

831
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: Tommy Skill was the last person to see Martha alive,

832
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: so he was grilled pretty good. In fact, the night

833
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: of the thirty feet they hauled him down that After

834
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: questioning Tommy and all the other kids, they hauled Tommy

835
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: down to the police station and grilled him for about

836
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: six hours. Well that's it's gotta suck because you know,

837
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: he has to put a lot of work into his

838
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: Halloween costs and we didn't get to use it. Well,

839
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: I know, the poor guy. Well that kind of sucks

840
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: from Michael, Kasie and Martha had made plans to go

841
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: trick or treating on the night oft one, and well

842
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: his date was gone. So scotch that the police while

843
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: they were over on the thirty one at the Skill household.

844
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: Of course they are already a stabbed last by finding

845
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: the pieces of the golf club that it was a

846
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: Tony pen of golf club. Yeah, and to a couple

847
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: of grandish police but noticed that there was a Tony

848
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: penn of golf club which was a fore iron. That

849
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: the murder weapons was a Tony pen a six iron. Uh,

850
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: they've noticed his fore iron in a barrel in the

851
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: family's mudroom. Had the barrel head to you know what

852
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: whatever you have in your mode room, you know, umbrella. Yeah, yeah,

853
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,479
Speaker 1: so they noticed this. Two days later they came back

854
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: and they asked permission to search the house number one,

855
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: and they asked permission to take the fore iron which

856
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: was still there in the barrel, and so they took

857
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: that sand. Of course, it was engraved with the words

858
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: Mrs R Case Skegle on the handle, and they did

859
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: serious to According to the police, they searched the Skagle

860
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 1: house pretty thoroughly and didn't find anything. So eventually this

861
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 1: case kind of kind of went cold. I mean, they

862
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: investigated Tommy for a long time. They questioned him many times,

863
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: they gave him polygraphs twice which we were inconclusive, and

864
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: they they really went after a bunch of other people

865
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: to mentioned Candle, a Littleton and all talk about a

866
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: few others also. But then eventually the case went cold

867
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: until the nineteen nineties, and then there was a sentence

868
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: from I don't want to get too deep into the

869
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 1: weeds here, but there there was this rumor that came

870
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: out during the rape trial of William Kennedy Smith there

871
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: was another Kennedy cousin. There's a lot of Kennedy cousins, Yeah, yeah,

872
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: there are, and so he was on tropic rape and

873
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: of course that received national attention. Some of the tabloids

874
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: for some reason started circulating a rumor that he had

875
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: been present at the Skegal household on the night of

876
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: the murder. And it's the tabloids. You gotta love the press,

877
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: I know. But but of course it wasn't true. But

878
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: that brought some more attention back to this case, because

879
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: it was long, long since cold at that point. Yeah, yeah,

880
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: police announced they were going to like look into the

881
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: case again. I mean at this point rushed and senior,

882
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: a rookie, was really tired of living under this cloud

883
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: of suspicion. It was mainly over Tommy. And that's right.

884
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: He commissioned the report. Yeah, I had two. He hired

885
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: a group called Sutton Sudden Investigations too, and they were

886
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: easily were a bunch of former FBI agents and stuff,

887
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 1: and they were private investigation organization. He said, we want

888
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: you to solve this case. You know, sky's the limit

889
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: on one time it comes to the cash. And so

890
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: they fully expecting that it was going to exonerate his

891
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: entire family. Well yeah, because yeah, because if he if

892
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: he knew it was a member of his family, why

893
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: the hell would you do something like that, right, I mean, so, yeah,

894
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: he hired them to do this and that's when things

895
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: kind of like got out of hand. They they were

896
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: they were questioning Tommy and Michael, and Tommy, well, Michael

897
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: changed his story. It turns out he didn't just go

898
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: straight to bed when he got home. He actually went

899
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: back out and I want to go window peeping. There

900
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: was this this lady Michael did Tommy. Yeah, So Michael

901
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: went out to go window peeping. Apparently there's some local

902
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: lady who liked to walk around naked and sometimes after

903
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: dark and so, you which to a fifteen year old

904
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: boys is just irresistible in the seventies particular, right, I

905
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: mean for the Internet, that's not good point to Yeah,

906
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 1: And it turns out her her lights were out and

907
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: there was no action there. So he said that had

908
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: this thought that, well, you know, maybe I'll go by

909
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: the go by to the Moxley's house and see if

910
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: I could wake up Martha, you know, and Sean want

911
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: to see he wants to make out or something. Actually,

912
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 1: I think there's are his words, woul Maybe I'll see

913
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: if can get a kiss from Martha. She likes me.

914
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: So he climbed a tree that outside and then in

915
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: the front of the house and tosses a few pebbles

916
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: at her window and calls that her name and gets

917
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: no response, and its believed that she He actually was

918
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: outside a second story window that was actually John and

919
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: her brother John's bedroom. But that wouldn't have got a

920
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: good Yeah, if somebody been home, he would not have

921
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: been happy with the results he got. Yeah, not really. Uh.

922
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: And Martha's bedroom was actually on the third floor. She

923
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 1: had the entire third floor to herself, and so he

924
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: was he had totally had the wrong room. But John, John,

925
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: I think was at that point was downstairs watching the

926
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: evening news with his mother, So he wasn't that he

927
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: wasn't in the bedroom. Uh So Michael at that point,

928
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: uh um, I don't tact the way to put this.

929
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: He masturbating can be said just like sitting in the

930
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: tree outside of John's bedroom. Yeah, he decided to just

931
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 1: start playing a little pocket pool and according to Mark Ferman,

932
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: he reached orgasm. According to RFK Jr. He did not.

933
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: He realized he suddenly realized what a stupid thing he

934
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: was doing, and so he put it away, a climb

935
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: back down out of the tree and left. He walked

936
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: towards the question, Yeah, why does it matter what's that

937
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: if he reached because if he reached completion, then he

938
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: would have listened DNA evidence at the scene, which nobody

939
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: collected anything at that treanch in a tree like next

940
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 1: to a window on the other side of the house. Yeah,

941
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: well it was sudden and Mark Ferman uh and there

942
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: there was one of the guy have an old childhood

943
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: classmate of Michael's name, Andy Pugh LF but yeah by Andy. Yeah,

944
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 1: Andy re established contact with and with Michael, and Michael

945
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: was thinking like, you know, hey, let's let's start hanging out.

946
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: You know, it's been too long with we should get

947
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: to know each other again and all yeah, the YadA,

948
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: and Andy said, look, you know, I really have to

949
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: know what's what really happened with Martha before I can

950
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: really in good conscience to do this. And and so

951
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: Michael told him this story. This was back about I think,

952
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: And it turns out the guy was still a prep

953
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: school jerk. Yeah, and Andy, Andy Pew. When he heard

954
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: about the climbing the tree, he assumed it was the

955
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: pine tree underneath which the body had been done. Okay,

956
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: because well, for one thing, I mean, all the kids

957
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood climbed that tree. It was a big

958
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: tree with a big, big, strong, well space branches, and

959
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: it was a great climbing tree, but it was a

960
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty ft away from the Moxley house. So

961
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: you can't exactly climb that tree and toss pebbles at

962
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: Martha's window. That's not a good spine tree. And it's

963
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: also on the wrong side of the house. And so

964
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 1: the tree evening. Yeah, okay, so it's kind of just

965
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: like Ferman is just like dragging his name through the

966
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: mudel a little bit by saying like and he reached

967
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: orgasm and and and and and got it all over

968
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: the body, look at look at this guy, Yeah exactly.

969
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: And well, and what what he was saying is that

970
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: Michael changed his story in because at that time DNA

971
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: evidence was becoming a thing. Yeah, so he was trying

972
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: to explain We're trying to explain away the presence of

973
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 1: his semen. But I don't think there was seen on

974
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: the body. No, there wasn't. Great, just wanted to clear quick. Yeah,

975
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: but you know, interestingly, at the trial in two thousand two,

976
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: the prosecution said that there was yet, but it was lost.

977
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: Let me guess it was lost. Well, I don't. I

978
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:34,720
Speaker 1: haven't seen any evidence that there ever was any semen

979
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: that was even collected. Yeah, you would think that if

980
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 1: they had collected it, they would have gone ahead and

981
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: had it run and just marched into court and said,

982
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: printed up the results on a giant placard and said

983
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 1: guess who. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean they could definitely,

984
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: even before the advent of DNA, they could still get

985
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: all kinds of information out of that stuff. Bodily fluid.

986
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: You can get blood type and other stuff. You know

987
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: that you're calling it the advent to DNA. Yeah whatever,

988
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 1: But testing, Yeah, I guess the testing asking't been around

989
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 1: for at least several hundred years at least. Yeah. Okay,

990
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: So so anyway, that but that's that's Burman's theory of

991
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: it is that is that that's what that's why he

992
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 1: made up this story in and so suspicion. Michael had

993
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: never been a suspect in this case, and suddenly suspicion

994
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 1: shifted to him because he admitted to being a peeping

995
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: tom Bessie because he there was no trying. It really looked.

996
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: And when I first heard this story, and I I

997
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: heard that tale about about the whole thing, in the

998
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 1: tree and everything. I thought, that's he's guilty as sin.

999
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,760
Speaker 1: He's obviously trying to explain away the presence of DNA,

1000
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: and so he actually had an explanation for it. He

1001
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: had actually talked about this, like I said to NDP,

1002
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: I think in the mid eighties, and he asked, I

1003
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: had another guy named Michael, Michael Meredith who was the

1004
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: guy that he had been. Michael, by the way, not

1005
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: too long after the murder was shipped off to the

1006
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: school for troubled children called Elon. It's in Maine, and

1007
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 1: there they had this for brutal regiment where they you know,

1008
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: they didn't beat people and got in their faces and

1009
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: everything for kids that had drug and alcohol problems. The

1010
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: boot camp situation kind of yeah, Bootcamp, except like even

1011
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: more brutal. Well, it was the tough love was bloody

1012
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: your nose. Yeah. And so in nine seven, Michael Meredith

1013
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: was living temporarily with Michael Scagell because they were working

1014
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: on they're working on the possibility of like the sort

1015
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: of tell all book about about Elon and schools like

1016
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: Elan and a little scandal but not that and and

1017
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: so at that point he told Michael Meredith that story also,

1018
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: which don't ask me why it's not a story I

1019
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: would be telling anybody. Uh yeah, no, yeah, no, yeah.

1020
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: And also rf K Jr. Says he told him that

1021
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 1: story back in the early eighties. So you know, again, Michael,

1022
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: Michael maybe talks a little bit too much. I was

1023
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 1: gonna say, he may just have a very poor filter. Yeah,

1024
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:03,919
Speaker 1: it sounds like he doesn't have very good filter. Yeah,

1025
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: I know guys that tell you things and you're like, what,

1026
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: why don't don't ever tell anybody that again. Alternately, you know,

1027
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: somebody did say to him. Those are situations where they said, well,

1028
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: what really happened with the home? Martha Moxleer, like you

1029
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: you know something more, don't you? And he said, yeah, okay, yes,

1030
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 1: I you know this is actually what happened. I was

1031
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 1: trying to protect myself. You know, I was seventeen, seventeen,

1032
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: I was fifteen. You know, I didn't know better. I

1033
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: thought I was going to get in huge trouble for

1034
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: being this peeping tom. You know, he'd have been serious trouble.

1035
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 1: But so I'm sure that you know, in his fifteen

1036
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: year old mind, it was better to just lie than

1037
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: tell the truth. And you know, again. Later he realized, like,

1038
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 1: all right, I'll just you know, I've told enough people.

1039
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: I can say, hey, I had this problem when I

1040
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: was child and it's better now, and that's fine. Yeah.

1041
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: I So I don't think there's all that suspicious that

1042
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: he lied and then that the day after the murder. Yeah,

1043
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: I don't think it is. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't

1044
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: be I wouldn't be telling that story, but I just

1045
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't have changed my story later. Yeah, not really. Should

1046
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 1: we get into theories here, yeah, okay, and yeah, I

1047
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: think I think we've we've got the whole thing laid out. Yeah.

1048
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of suspects here. First off, of course,

1049
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: the random transient theory, which is silly. Yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah, because,

1050
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: as I said, Martha was found with the panties rolled down, um,

1051
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: which indicates that the attack it was somebody that she knew.

1052
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: That's what That's certainly the inference that the police and

1053
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: drew from this. And so there I was stranger in

1054
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: the dark night, dark cold night. You're gonna just roll

1055
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 1: that pulling your pants and rolled in your So the

1056
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: one thing that Okay, I was joking when I was

1057
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: saying this my favorite theory, but I don't necessarily agree

1058
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 1: with the had to be somebody that she knew. I mean,

1059
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: it could very well have been a threat that was

1060
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,479
Speaker 1: going to lead to a sexual assault. I mean, somebody

1061
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: could have had a knife to her throat and said

1062
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 1: you pulled down your pants and you pull down your

1063
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: underwear or I'm gonna slit your throat. Okay, but yeah,

1064
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: question if somebody had a knife to her, why beat

1065
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: her with the golf club and stab her with the

1066
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: golf club? Why not just kill her with the knife.

1067
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: Maybe they had the golf club across her neck, I

1068
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,280
Speaker 1: don't know, choking her saying I will choke the life

1069
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: out of you if you don't pull your pants down.

1070
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: Seems like there would be some markings there. I don't know.

1071
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just saying that. Well, I mean, I

1072
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: don't think that it is so outlandish as the both

1073
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: of you do. Well, there's an alternative theory, which, of course,

1074
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: she got whacked once on the head, which is enough

1075
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: to know disorient, dis orient or maybe even kao her

1076
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,479
Speaker 1: pretty good. And then her pants and panties get pulled

1077
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: down and then and then a more brutal beating takes

1078
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: place after that, because something happens, right, yeah, yeah, So

1079
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 1: even though I kind of suspect it was some of

1080
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 1: issue knew, you know, I got I gotta say it.

1081
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: It is possible. Well, and and I will fully admit

1082
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,439
Speaker 1: that a random trans you just happening to wander into

1083
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 1: this gated community and not be seen by anybody and

1084
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: not raising any alarms. I find that very suspicious. I

1085
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 1: don't think that it probably happened, But I also can't

1086
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: say that this evidence of it couldn't have been. I

1087
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 1: don't say, I just don't agree with it. Yeah. But

1088
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: the other the other reason is there's so many other

1089
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 1: good suspects there. They're really okay, let's let's have one. Okay.

1090
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 1: Our next guy, Franz Vatine, who I think was born

1091
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,919
Speaker 1: in Yugoslavia, had served in the German Army in World

1092
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 1: War Two and all around weirdoh yeah, kind of a

1093
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 1: strange guy. He lived in a basement apartment. He was

1094
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 1: a gardener, this cakeless gardener. He lived in an apartment

1095
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: in the basement and h his wife at that on

1096
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 1: that weekend was away, so just him in the apartment.

1097
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: So and he had he had an exit from the

1098
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: house that would have allowed him to get out murder

1099
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: Martha come back undetected. It doesn't doesn't prove anything, but

1100
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: the scate kids said that sometimes dry He would tell

1101
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: them really strange stories from World War Two about how

1102
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,360
Speaker 1: they would you know, that he and the other German

1103
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: soldiers would go around raping women and stuff, which is

1104
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: kind of a strange thing to be saying to a

1105
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: bunch of teenage kids. Teenage dudes. Though, Yeah, well but

1106
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: you got you also remember that he he probably was

1107
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: messed with a lot by the kids. They probably made

1108
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: fun of him, and they probably screwed with him a lot.

1109
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: He if he was in the war, it wasn't uncommon

1110
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: for guys to shell shock, to have shell shocks, so

1111
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: he's got some issues because of that. So he's just like,

1112
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 1: you know what, I think it's okay to tell you

1113
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: a little different word. I was gonna use a little

1114
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: jerks who were screwed with me all the time a

1115
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 1: story that I know is gonna really screw you up

1116
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: a little bit and get you back. Maybe I don't know.

1117
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: I mean again, this is this is right up there

1118
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: with with Mr. Ed as a reasoning. Yeah, he's well

1119
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: and well, the only other thing that makes him look

1120
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 1: even possibly good is um No, there were no there

1121
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: were diary entries in Martha's In Martha's diary, don't mention.

1122
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 1: I didn't mention Martha had a diary. No, you brought

1123
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: this up yet Martha had a diary. Yeah, and eventually

1124
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: wound up in the hands of the prosecution. But there

1125
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: were entries in their relating to France. He was referred

1126
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 1: to as Frank in there, and she talked about how

1127
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: she was really creeped out by Frank and and thought

1128
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: he was really a scary guy. And understandably afterwards, before well,

1129
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 1: Dorothy Moxley started reading Martha's diary after the death. Let's

1130
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 1: see if there was any good information in there, obviously,

1131
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: and she asked some of some of Martha's friends, who

1132
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: is Frank because she seems to really be really afraid

1133
00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: of Frank. I believe it was Sheila McGuire who had

1134
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: entified him as Franz Beatine. That was that what that

1135
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: that could only be Franz. It was Frank And apparently

1136
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: after the prosecution of the police took the diary and

1137
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 1: kept in an evidence for many years, Dorothy spent years

1138
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: lobbying to get it back. By the time she got

1139
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: it back, the pages relating to Frank had been removed.

1140
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but Franz did. He did take a light

1141
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: detective test, which he passed, and so they dropped him

1142
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: as a suspect. Nazi of course he passed. Yeah, Suli

1143
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: didn't have sociopath I don't. I don't think he's a

1144
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 1: good for this. There's not really much of anything to

1145
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: tie him to this crime. So let's move on to

1146
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: our next suspect here, which is Ken Littleton to live

1147
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: in Tutor. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah he um. Well, there

1148
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: was again no physical evidence connecting Kenny to the crime

1149
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: at all, and no, not not nothing that connects anybody really. Uh.

1150
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: The thing about Kenny is he uh he lost his

1151
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 1: job with the Skegles a few months after of the

1152
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: murder because he was drunk and he crashed their car

1153
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 1: and left apparently left the accident scene. So he kind

1154
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: of got fired by Rookie, and so he after that

1155
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 1: he was sort of drifting around. He got a job

1156
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: as a bouncer and a bar up in and Providence

1157
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: or somewhere like that. It's weird that he went from

1158
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: working in a high class school and being a tutor

1159
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 1: to quite quickly not doing that kind of work, and

1160
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 1: I wonder if he's weird. I was wondering if he

1161
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: got blacklists because because the Skaks were like this guy. Now,

1162
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: the Skaks didn't blacklist him. Now what happened is he

1163
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: kept his job teaching. But then in the summer, while

1164
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: as a teacher, you know, you go he wanted to

1165
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: like I can't remember where if it was, it wasn't

1166
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 1: Fire Island, and I can't remember where it was. But yeah,

1167
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: but he he went to this beach community where he'd

1168
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: hung out the summer before and got a job as

1169
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: a bouncer in a bar and hung out and stuff.

1170
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 1: It was just kind of a summer job, kind of

1171
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: summer job, kind of daily But he went on a

1172
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: little crime way if you broke into some some houses

1173
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 1: and businesses and stall stuff. He was he was. He

1174
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: broken the one woman's apartment, she had left the window

1175
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: window opened, He removed the screen, climbed in, and she

1176
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: woke up to find him lying naked on top of her. Yeah,

1177
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 1: he did a lot of stuff like that. He has

1178
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 1: described more time between that and the things had a

1179
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 1: bit of a mental breakdown. Yeah, his behavior was his

1180
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 1: behavior was strange. And and so what happened is that

1181
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 1: what eventually the police found out about these crimes. The

1182
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 1: Greenwich police did, and so they they rated about to

1183
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: the school that he worked at, and so immediately got

1184
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 1: fired and okay, so now he gets blacklisted. Okay, and

1185
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: didn't well he didn't get blacklisted then, but then he

1186
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: got a job teaching at another school and yeah, and

1187
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: then and then the police went immediately went down there

1188
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: and rated him out again. So he got fired again.

1189
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: And so yeah, things kind we're kind of going downhill

1190
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: for Ken. Yeah, it stayed like the that. I'm happy

1191
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,919
Speaker 1: that the Internet exists so that like the police don't

1192
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 1: have to actually track Pool anymore, that there's like a database. Hey,

1193
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: don't hire this person because they like to break in

1194
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 1: and lay naked on strangers. Because sadly, there was a

1195
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 1: time where there was a lot of departments that just

1196
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 1: were overworked and they couldn't do it. Yeah. Another another

1197
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 1: odd thing that happened is that Tommy went into Kid's

1198
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 1: room in the house. Canada's sitting there watching the French Connection.

1199
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 1: Remember that movie Gene. Yeah, back in those days, I

1200
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: don't know if they even still do this, because I

1201
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: don't watch TV anymore, but the networks in those days

1202
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 1: would run theatrical release movies, you know, like say nine

1203
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: to eleven or whatever. Yeah, they don't do that anyh Yeah,

1204
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 1: and so, but they used to do it back in

1205
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 1: those days. So The French Connection was showing on TV,

1206
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: and so Tommy went into his room at about ten

1207
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: fifteen and started watching the movie because there's just a big, huge,

1208
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 1: famous chase scene in the movie, and so he stayed

1209
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: for the through the end of the whole chase scene.

1210
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 1: So that sort of maybe it kind of kind of

1211
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: makes Tommy look a little better as far as because

1212
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: I mean Tommy, because he do you have a had

1213
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: time to murder Martha and then get all cleaned up

1214
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: and then go in there and watch TV with Can.

1215
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 1: Well we'll talk about that, but so he so Tommy

1216
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: was able to provide an alibi for Ken each other.

1217
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: They kind of allied by each other. But one of

1218
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: the things that Tommy noticed that it was kind of

1219
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: strange is he said it was warm in the room,

1220
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: and yet the whole time that he was there watching

1221
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 1: The Fresh Connection, Kenny was covered with a blanket from

1222
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: head to toe. I mean not not his face, but

1223
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 1: I mean from his from the bottom of his chin

1224
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 1: all the way. He was covered like he was laying

1225
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 1: in bed. Now he was now he was sitting in

1226
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: a chair, but sing a recliner or something like that.

1227
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: But he was covered with a blanket. Tommy thought that

1228
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 1: was a little strange. But you know what, I have

1229
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: laid around and watched TV, and it is very easy

1230
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: to get a bit of a chill. It's October. Yes,

1231
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: the heat is on, but it's a little little bit

1232
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,280
Speaker 1: of a chill, and I'm just gonna throw a blanket on.

1233
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 1: There's a conversation. I have actually a lot with my

1234
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 1: boss because we share an office and he his job

1235
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: is very like get up and go right. He gets up,

1236
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 1: He's often like around and then he comes back into

1237
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 1: the office, whereas I'm sitting at my desk the whole time,

1238
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 1: and I'll have the heat on, yeah, and he comes

1239
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 1: in and he's like it is boiling, and here, what

1240
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 1: are you doing? And I can also imagine that it's

1241
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: that sort of situation that you know, Tommy has been out,

1242
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: he's been drinking back. You know, He's like, well, it's

1243
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 1: warm in this room and Ken's been sitting in there

1244
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 1: and he's like, it is cold. I'm gonna put a

1245
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 1: blanket on. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily prove much of anything. Well,

1246
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 1: there's also a little weird and there's also the there

1247
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 1: is a huge body temperature difference perception of teenagers to

1248
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: the rest of the adult world. Metabolis been slowing it

1249
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 1: out a little bit. Yeah, you know, I see, I see,

1250
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: you know, teenagers this time of year running around it's

1251
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: sixty degrees and they're a pair of basketball shorts and

1252
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 1: that's it. And then like, man, it is so hot.

1253
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 1: What But also again, you know, again, I presume that

1254
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 1: Ken knew to his job, hadn't been drinking nearly as

1255
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: much as the rest of the kids. Probably not right.

1256
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 1: He was trying to take responsibility. So if Tommy had

1257
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 1: been drinking the whole night, or had been making out

1258
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: with a girl and came back in, yeah yeah, uh

1259
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 1: so yeah, so can's uh he's he seems to have

1260
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: been pretty much cleared. I think there was there was

1261
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: some discussion that among police and everybody that he maybe

1262
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 1: it was a serial killer dumb well yeah, I mean

1263
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 1: not overall, just people like like some some some women

1264
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 1: got blood into death in various places that were not

1265
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 1: far from places that he was living. But that doesn't

1266
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: necessarily mean much. I say, women have been blooded to

1267
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 1: death not far away from places that you've lived. And

1268
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: yet as far as I'm aware, it wasn't, you know,

1269
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 1: I don't think it was. And that guy who's serving time,

1270
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 1: he seems to have probably been the culprits likely. Well,

1271
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 1: I think Kenny has been kind of cleared because in

1272
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 1: a grand jury, and that in Connecticut law, you can

1273
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 1: have what's called a grand jury of one where you

1274
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: basically the judge, there's a one judge who was the jury.

1275
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 1: He decides that there's probable cause, and so it's really

1276
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: worth you know, indicting somebody. And so they brought Kenny

1277
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: Littleton in. But under Connecticut law, he had to be

1278
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: immunized so he could confess to killing Martha, and there

1279
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:31,439
Speaker 1: would not have been a thing they could do because

1280
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 1: as long as he told the truth, you know about whatever,

1281
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 1: and I as you have to assume that they asked

1282
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 1: Kenny then oh, immunity, Sorry, he's got to get a shot. Yeah, judicially, yeah,

1283
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 1: he uh so, presumably they asked him if he had

1284
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,600
Speaker 1: murdered Martha, and presumably Kenny said no, of course he

1285
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: could have lied. I guess you know, I'm saying, you're

1286
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: telling a guy he has immunity and that guy believing

1287
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 1: it can be very two different things. I've seen t s. I.

1288
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:05,080
Speaker 1: I know what's up. I watched Law and Order. I know. Yeah,

1289
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 1: let's say that Kenny. Let's say that Kenny really did

1290
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: do it, but he wanted to lie about it. But

1291
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 1: at this time, this is like hard times for Kenny.

1292
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 1: He's had a rough life, right, He's been sort of

1293
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:18,439
Speaker 1: like in a floating from job to job, in place

1294
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: to place. I suppose he really did did it. You

1295
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 1: know what I would do if I had been Ken,

1296
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: I would have gotten the cakeles and I would have said, Hey,

1297
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: tell you what, if you give me a suitcase full

1298
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:30,919
Speaker 1: of cash, I'll go into that jury room, the grand

1299
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: jury room, and I will tell them that I murdered

1300
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 1: Martha Moxley and that'll be the end of it for

1301
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 1: all of you. Yeah, and just make sure it's cash

1302
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 1: in twenties. Uh yeah, and just do that well. And

1303
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 1: I'm amazed. I mean, you say that with a bit

1304
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,439
Speaker 1: of humor, but I'm amazed. That there's always this talk

1305
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 1: of Kennedy families having all this money and they can

1306
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 1: buy whatever they need. And I'm amazed that nobody has

1307
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 1: walked up and said it was me having been paid

1308
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 1: for said testimony. I mean, I'm not trying to cast

1309
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 1: anything negative against him. It's just that there's you know,

1310
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 1: you've got a lot of money. You can just have

1311
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 1: a you can convince a guy that for X amount

1312
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 1: of money, you take the fall. Dude. Well, you know,

1313
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 1: especially you know, in the case of Kenny, suppose Kenny

1314
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: didn't do it, they still you know, you kind of

1315
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: suppose somebody in the Skag family did do it. And

1316
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,480
Speaker 1: they're rich, and they're of course all powerful and everything,

1317
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 1: and wouldn't they wouldn't they have offered him like a

1318
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: suitcase full of cash in order to do you know,

1319
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 1: you think they would have, you know, well, even today,

1320
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:39,480
Speaker 1: I mean, if they have all this money in power.

1321
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 1: Of course, the Skates are not wealthy anymore unfortunately, but

1322
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 1: you know, if they had all this money in power,

1323
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 1: they could they could give somebody a suitcase for the

1324
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 1: cash to confess to the crime. And since somebody has

1325
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: already been convicted of the crime, well good luck getting

1326
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:57,240
Speaker 1: a commission of somebody else, right, Yeah, okay, Tommy's skeg

1327
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 1: well again a favorite for a long time. He um, well,

1328
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 1: let's see last to see Martha alive. Tommy had a

1329
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 1: head injury when he was young, very young, and that

1330
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 1: caused a change in his behavior when he was prone

1331
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 1: to violent outbursts. I mean very violent where he had

1332
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: to be physically restrained and he would damage things, break things,

1333
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 1: and um did he but that seems like the sort

1334
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: of thing that takes hours to calm down from right,

1335
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:27,600
Speaker 1: usually not necessarily, but I think it was either his

1336
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 1: sister or his brother, or maybe it was Michael. He

1337
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: said that he was like like milk boiling out of stove.

1338
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 1: Every seen everything ever boiled milk, You know how it

1339
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 1: looks like totally calm, and then the next second that's

1340
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:40,640
Speaker 1: just said boost, It's up over the sides of the

1341
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: pan and all of them all. Yeah, he said that

1342
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:45,759
Speaker 1: was he was like that. So it took nothing, apparently

1343
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 1: to set him off. And also ken Lyttleton was not

1344
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 1: sure afterwards. He he thought that perhaps Tommy had changed

1345
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 1: his clothes. He couldn't really remember. Yes, said something you'd

1346
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 1: pay attention to unless it was you went from a

1347
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:01,599
Speaker 1: really nice sound fit to a crappy one, or from

1348
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:03,680
Speaker 1: a crappy one to a really nice just changing your

1349
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 1: shirt or your jeans from one fair jeans to another. Yeah,

1350
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: it's not really something you'd note. Yeah, No, not really. Uh,

1351
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if there was a dress

1352
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: code at the bell Haven Club. I'm sure there was.

1353
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 1: There probably was, if you want to come back and

1354
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:20,720
Speaker 1: change out of your your slacks and your tie and

1355
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 1: it into something a little more casually. Was Tommy a

1356
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 1: thirty two inch waste? Tommy was He was pretty athletic.

1357
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 1: He was not a you were thinking of the thirty

1358
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 1: six inch waiste jeans. Yeah, Now, I don't think Tommy

1359
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:34,639
Speaker 1: was nearly that big. Yeah, I mean he was seventeen

1360
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 1: years old. You know you're usually skinny at that age, right,

1361
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,519
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sure it wasn't Tommy. But one of

1362
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 1: the other reasons. I mean, of course he lied about

1363
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 1: the whole book report thing. He was not in bed,

1364
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 1: but and that's so for that and many other reasons.

1365
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 1: But they spent a lot of and yeah, he failed

1366
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:54,480
Speaker 1: his first well I didn't really fail his first polygraph.

1367
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,639
Speaker 1: It was inconclusive. Well, so here's a question. I guess right.

1368
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 1: One of the big things from the um allegations was

1369
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: that when Ken did his bed check at five, Tommy

1370
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 1: wasn't in his bed, but wasn't that because he was

1371
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 1: in Ken's room with Ken watching a video TV room.

1372
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:14,479
Speaker 1: He didn't, he didn't go into Ken's room to watch

1373
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:16,240
Speaker 1: the door. He was in the TV room, but he

1374
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 1: was with Ken when Ken was reportedly doing this bed chack. No, no,

1375
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 1: he was not. It's after. It was after the bed check.

1376
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: It was like quarter after he started watching the movie. Yeah, yeah,

1377
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:30,479
Speaker 1: and well Ken was already watching the movie and then

1378
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 1: Tommy just sort of wandered in and sat down and

1379
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:36,759
Speaker 1: watched it with Yeah, you know, a getting no physical evidence,

1380
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:38,560
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that would indicate to

1381
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 1: me that maybe it was Tommy is that, of course,

1382
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 1: after there's that whole thing about the roll down panties,

1383
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: Tommy was a real ladies man. He was larting. Yeah, yeah,

1384
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, he definitely of all of our suspects,

1385
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 1: Martha is excuse me, Tommy is the most likely to

1386
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:57,800
Speaker 1: roll pull out her pants for him. So I don't

1387
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,519
Speaker 1: want to get too graphic here, but correct me if

1388
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Joe, I swear I remember there was some

1389
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 1: discussion of the use of hands in a sexual manner

1390
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 1: from one or both of Martha and Tommy at sometime.

1391
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yeah? There was they're playing with each other.

1392
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:24,680
Speaker 1: H yeah, that's that story changed in summer. Okay, So

1393
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 1: I'm not misremembering because that I'm kind of I'm kind

1394
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 1: of looking at this in two ways. I'm looking at

1395
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:35,679
Speaker 1: Tommy as a suspect up until he changed his story,

1396
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:38,880
Speaker 1: and then Tommy as a suspect after he changes. So

1397
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 1: let's let's see. Okay, so we've done before he changed

1398
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 1: his story. Yeah, but the before is he had an

1399
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 1: inclusive It's kind of a uh. His polygraph results were

1400
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 1: never really all that conclusive, you know, one way or

1401
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,360
Speaker 1: the other. And you know, there were reasons for the

1402
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: police to be suspicious, but obviously they couldn't get an indictment.

1403
01:11:57,360 --> 01:12:00,679
Speaker 1: The prosecutor refused to sign an indictment of him because,

1404
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 1: I mean, they just didn't have any evidence. The evidence

1405
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 1: was he was the last person to see her alive,

1406
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:08,719
Speaker 1: and he had had some psychiatric issues, some violent outbursts.

1407
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 1: I mean, so what doesn't mean it doesn't prove anything, right,

1408
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 1: That didn't stop him from being a suspect. No, not

1409
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 1: at all. But we'll come back to Tommy in a minute. Okay,

1410
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 1: let's talk about another suspect, Martha's brother, John Moxley. After

1411
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:24,680
Speaker 1: he went and drove around a bit, he was outside

1412
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 1: searching and Julie Skeegle came out of the house and

1413
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 1: she was wanted to look too. That's them now. Julie

1414
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 1: is Michael's older sister. She was It's hard to keep track.

1415
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 1: There's a lot of names in here. Um, so John

1416
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:43,559
Speaker 1: was He was actually polygraphed by the police. I think

1417
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 1: he passed, and so he was removed as a from

1418
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 1: the list of suspects. But one of I think it

1419
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 1: was Sheila, said that she was actually afraid of John

1420
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:54,160
Speaker 1: Moxley and he was known for violence. He went after

1421
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 1: He was known to go after people with baseball bats

1422
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 1: a couple of times. Of course, he was a teenagers, seventeen.

1423
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:04,200
Speaker 1: You know, I'm privilege. There's no repercussions to my actions. Yeah,

1424
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,559
Speaker 1: possibly not. But when he was out with Julie, Julie

1425
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 1: didn't really remember this until much later, when she was

1426
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 1: hip she wanted her hypnosis. She suddenly remembers. Okay, remember something, yeah, yeah,

1427
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:21,880
Speaker 1: remember me with it. He was kind of over over

1428
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,519
Speaker 1: the scage place, kind of calling Martha's name, and he

1429
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:26,599
Speaker 1: says to Julie, you know you should go. We're looking

1430
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 1: our lawn. And Julie was like why, I mean, she

1431
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 1: could see you're you're yelling her name. She'd be able

1432
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 1: to hear it from over there if she was over there, right,

1433
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, And and he was like, he was kind

1434
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:38,800
Speaker 1: of insistent, he really wanted to go over to the

1435
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:41,640
Speaker 1: Moxley yard and look around. She thought it was kind

1436
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: of creepy and strange in retrospect. Uh. The next thing

1437
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:50,120
Speaker 1: that happened is in that that that came out of hypnosis. Yeah,

1438
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 1: that was a recalled memory. And nobody can see this

1439
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 1: but us in the studio. Yeah, which I do through

1440
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:01,360
Speaker 1: every episode because everything is air quote. But memory is

1441
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 1: Memory is a really tricky thing, and it can be

1442
01:14:05,040 --> 01:14:08,480
Speaker 1: It can be really seriously altered by just cheer repetition

1443
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 1: if nothing else. And that there's probably at least a

1444
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 1: few witnesses in this case who have had their memories altered.

1445
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 1: Every time you remember something, you're altering it, you're overwriting it,

1446
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:20,800
Speaker 1: and that's a known fact. But what you're remembering is

1447
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:23,040
Speaker 1: actually the last time that you're remembering nothing. Yeah, you

1448
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 1: don't actually remember that thing anyway. You're overwriting the file

1449
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,720
Speaker 1: every time you access it. Yeah, so it gets it

1450
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,640
Speaker 1: gets a little de great at every time. So but

1451
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:34,040
Speaker 1: the next thing that happened is a friend of his

1452
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 1: came over that nine o'clock the morning of ten thirty one,

1453
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 1: and John was of course had been asleep in the

1454
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:41,679
Speaker 1: TV room. But this is something that got the guys

1455
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,880
Speaker 1: at Sutton Associates, you know, the private investigators, got them

1456
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 1: kind of interested in John is a suspect, and that

1457
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 1: is that he and his friend we're thinking, well, we

1458
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:53,800
Speaker 1: gotta go out look for Martha. Martha's missing. So they

1459
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 1: had out the house, out of the house and the

1460
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 1: Moxle house, and then they head towards the back of

1461
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: the house, which would have take and them like right

1462
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 1: by the pine tree where Martha's body was. And this

1463
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:06,800
Speaker 1: is something police will tell you is that if there's

1464
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 1: a search party for a body or for somebody who's missing,

1465
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:11,679
Speaker 1: then if a family member is part of that, they're

1466
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:14,400
Speaker 1: part of organizing it or they're out participating with it.

1467
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:17,719
Speaker 1: You want to watch them, because if they're the murderers,

1468
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:20,400
Speaker 1: they're going to lead you straight to the body. And

1469
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:22,760
Speaker 1: the reason being is they can't stand the idea of

1470
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 1: animals getting to the body and chewing it up and

1471
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:27,639
Speaker 1: carrying it away or whatever. So that's always that's something

1472
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:29,519
Speaker 1: you want to do, is watch those guys. And it

1473
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 1: looked like John was trying to lead his friend towards

1474
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 1: Martha's body and also maybe Julie the night before exactly

1475
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 1: because yeah, he wanted the body to be found, he

1476
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:41,759
Speaker 1: just didn't want to be the one to find it himself.

1477
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 1: But again I'm not Oh yeah, there were also some

1478
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 1: potential but blood stains in the TV room on the

1479
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 1: table in there that were apparently cleaned up by the

1480
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 1: maid before the police could look at them. That's about

1481
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:54,720
Speaker 1: it for the avidence against John Marxley. There's really not

1482
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:57,960
Speaker 1: much there that that is really paper thin. It is

1483
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:00,479
Speaker 1: it is, I think, so. Yeah. I mean some other

1484
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 1: questions right as to like how did he get the

1485
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: golf club, Well, I mean, like we said, they left

1486
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:09,760
Speaker 1: him laying about, they were readily available. He would have

1487
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:13,160
Speaker 1: had to gone over to the other house and get

1488
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 1: it and then brought it back it's not as tho

1489
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 1: it would be laying about the Mocksley property, right, Yeah,

1490
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 1: maybe not. But think about this neighborhood too, is it.

1491
01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 1: It really wasn't much in the way of fences in

1492
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:26,080
Speaker 1: the neighborhood and people all just sort of crossed each

1493
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,880
Speaker 1: other's property all the time. It's it's much like you know,

1494
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:31,920
Speaker 1: it drives me nuts. It's very It makes me think

1495
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:35,879
Speaker 1: of my neighborhood, which is not nearly as ritzy or large.

1496
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:41,280
Speaker 1: But understatement of the air, yes, but the kids in

1497
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:45,360
Speaker 1: the neighborhood, uh, you know, they run through my yard,

1498
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:47,479
Speaker 1: my front yard, and then they run across my neighbor's

1499
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:49,599
Speaker 1: front yard, and then that neighbor's front yard, and then

1500
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:52,799
Speaker 1: they veer onto the sidewalk, and then they veer across

1501
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 1: the street, and then they veer into somebody else's front yard,

1502
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 1: all of this at top speed. Yeah. But how old

1503
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 1: are they? Uh? Twelve to fifteen? Okay, all right, Well,

1504
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:07,639
Speaker 1: the problem is is that I can't keep them off

1505
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:10,439
Speaker 1: of my yard. I am not that old man. I

1506
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 1: have to I have to physically restrain myself so that

1507
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:15,559
Speaker 1: I don't go running out there and saying get off

1508
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:20,240
Speaker 1: of my grass. But I mean, it happens. I watched

1509
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 1: this all the time, and I'm like, do you not understand?

1510
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 1: And then I realized they don't. They don't get it,

1511
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 1: and I think that the same thing is that it's

1512
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:33,280
Speaker 1: it's communal to them at that point. Oh yeah, the

1513
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 1: the CAA goals. They left the golf club. I picked

1514
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:39,040
Speaker 1: up the golf club. I carried it home. I'll wander

1515
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 1: back by in a couple of days and just chuck

1516
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:42,880
Speaker 1: it on their lawn or the garden will pick it up.

1517
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 1: That weird old guy, I'll do it. There's I mean,

1518
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:49,639
Speaker 1: I guess there's some I can explain away why John

1519
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:53,720
Speaker 1: might have gone the way he went right to go

1520
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 1: out back. I mean her Martha's body was discovered by

1521
01:17:57,600 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 1: her friend who was cutting through her property, which means

1522
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:02,719
Speaker 1: that like, that's how those friends got to each other's property,

1523
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:05,639
Speaker 1: usually right. It was probably a route right, so one

1524
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:08,360
Speaker 1: would assume that, But also one would assume that if

1525
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:11,120
Speaker 1: you were going to go investigate that way, you would

1526
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:15,639
Speaker 1: see the body, depending on that light at the time

1527
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:18,439
Speaker 1: that you're walking through. If it's if he's wandering about

1528
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 1: four in the morning and it doesn't fall into his

1529
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:24,519
Speaker 1: flashlight beam, he's not going to see it. No, but

1530
01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:26,880
Speaker 1: it was my understanding that that was the search. The

1531
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 1: search with his male friend was like eight or nine.

1532
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:32,799
Speaker 1: It was about nine, and it was very brief. Basically,

1533
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:34,240
Speaker 1: they want it, just went out back and sort of

1534
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 1: took a look, you know, and yelled. Probably I don't

1535
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 1: think they even yelled. They just sort of looked and yeah.

1536
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 1: But you know, again, I'm not going to try to

1537
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:45,080
Speaker 1: accuse John. I've seen a couple of different interviews with

1538
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:46,519
Speaker 1: him on the on the tube, and he seems like

1539
01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 1: a reasonably decent, sincere guy. Yeah. I don't see any

1540
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:55,560
Speaker 1: any of cases he's a psycho killer. Next step is

1541
01:18:56,320 --> 01:19:00,519
Speaker 1: Martha's boyfriend at the time, Peter's of Luca. She had boyfriends,

1542
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 1: You had a boyfriend. I think I think Peter was

1543
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 1: sixteen at the time. He has since deceased. A lot

1544
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:07,320
Speaker 1: of people involved with this case. By the way, he

1545
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: died young for some reason. Um, you know, usually a

1546
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 1: drug overdoses or just whatever, heart attacks. Martha's father is

1547
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:16,719
Speaker 1: dead living in an indulgent lifestyle. Yeah, Well, Martha's father

1548
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 1: was actually not indulgent. He was he was a workaholic.

1549
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:23,040
Speaker 1: He's one of those guys you know, never stop type

1550
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 1: a personality. You know, you know who died in his

1551
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:29,880
Speaker 1: fifties I believe, maybe maybe sixties. I don't know he died.

1552
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 1: He died fairly young, though unfortunately Dorothy Age of my knowledge,

1553
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:37,840
Speaker 1: is still alive. Back to Peter's Luca the boyfriend. Uh,

1554
01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:40,800
Speaker 1: there were some diary entries in Martha's diary about Peter,

1555
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:44,679
Speaker 1: apparently that he had some really bad moods. He said

1556
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 1: hateful things to Martha. He was a violent he had

1557
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:49,760
Speaker 1: reputation as a violent person to fighter. How old was he?

1558
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:52,679
Speaker 1: I think he was sixteen, Dade. That explains that, got it? Yeah?

1559
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 1: I know, six year old dudes. They're dumb, they say

1560
01:19:55,960 --> 01:20:00,160
Speaker 1: stupid stuff. Got it, Okay? Yeah, But apparently Martha god

1561
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:02,040
Speaker 1: into her diary at least was planning to break up

1562
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:06,599
Speaker 1: with Peter, which indicates nothing. Okay, but Peter, I understand.

1563
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 1: It indicates that she may have done it that night

1564
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:12,760
Speaker 1: and that he reacted badly. But or perhaps you know,

1565
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:15,360
Speaker 1: he has an alibi, which is his mother. That which

1566
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:18,280
Speaker 1: is not the tightest alibi I've ever heard. Yeah, that's

1567
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 1: a pretty common. Yeah it is, and not an a

1568
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:23,880
Speaker 1: tight one. But if you if you look at it.

1569
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:27,879
Speaker 1: He apparently said that he worshiped Martha. He was apparently

1570
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:32,640
Speaker 1: really gaga over over Martha. Imagine a scenario where he

1571
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 1: went out. He didn't actually stay home at all with

1572
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:37,160
Speaker 1: his mother, because why would he stayed on with his mother?

1573
01:20:37,240 --> 01:20:39,680
Speaker 1: Stayed on with his mother and watch TV, you know.

1574
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:42,320
Speaker 1: I mean, imagine he went after Ristef and I imagine

1575
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:44,240
Speaker 1: he made he's made his way over towards the Moxley

1576
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:47,800
Speaker 1: house and it was maybe crossing the Cakele's land with

1577
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 1: they had a fairly decent sized parcel and happened to

1578
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:54,360
Speaker 1: see Martha and Tommy going at it, fooling around. Uh

1579
01:20:54,439 --> 01:20:57,880
Speaker 1: huh yeah. That that they explain exactly how he changed

1580
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,760
Speaker 1: his story. I'll talk to all to Tommy. Yeah, Tommy, no,

1581
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:02,800
Speaker 1: you decided to break him up, so you haven't. You

1582
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:06,200
Speaker 1: haven't told us a second story. They had a sexual encounter.

1583
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 1: Um yeah, well they hung out remember the hands pants Yeah,

1584
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 1: hands and pants conscription. That's that's what he means by

1585
01:21:15,080 --> 01:21:19,439
Speaker 1: a sexual encounter. Yeah, they sexually. According to Tommy, they

1586
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:24,720
Speaker 1: engaged in a mutual masturbation. Yeah yeah, hants pants yeah,

1587
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:28,920
Speaker 1: pants yeah. And supposing if he witnessed us uh, and

1588
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:31,760
Speaker 1: if you're, you know, sixteen and head over heels and

1589
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:33,720
Speaker 1: love and something like that. You see that. I mean

1590
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,040
Speaker 1: obviously that I could see where that would cost somebody

1591
01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:39,000
Speaker 1: to flip out. Yeah, I can all yeah, I can

1592
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:43,160
Speaker 1: see the violent rage. I can also see the sobbing,

1593
01:21:43,280 --> 01:21:45,960
Speaker 1: blubbering mess. I mean that could go either way. Yeah,

1594
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:48,600
Speaker 1: but it's also it would also be interesting if the

1595
01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 1: dude in that scenario, the extra dude in that scenario,

1596
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:55,200
Speaker 1: didn't bear some of the wrath that you would think.

1597
01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:57,320
Speaker 1: You would think that he would be good after Tommy,

1598
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:03,280
Speaker 1: even for yeah, yeah, and then Martha maybe not. Ye. Well, anyway,

1599
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 1: Peter's Luca took a polygraph and passed apparently, And I'm

1600
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 1: not so sure how ironclad polygraphs really are. Yeah, they're

1601
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:13,400
Speaker 1: they're not They're not the best ever. But okay, so

1602
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 1: Peter's Peters cleared. So that leads us with one and

1603
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:20,599
Speaker 1: a half suspects. Yeah kind of. Well, you know, Michael

1604
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:26,479
Speaker 1: changed his story, um, and eventually the Sutton the Sutton

1605
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,800
Speaker 1: investigation was closed down. Tommy had a lawyer ever since,

1606
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:32,559
Speaker 1: ever since, like nineteen seventy six, he had an early

1607
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 1: seventy six, he had a lawyer shocking named Manny Margolas,

1608
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 1: and he was present when when Tommy changed his story.

1609
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 1: That was in summer nine and that's when he shut

1610
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:47,719
Speaker 1: down the Sutton investigation. And but then there was somebody

1611
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:52,320
Speaker 1: that Sutton had hired. They had hired this college this yeah,

1612
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:56,880
Speaker 1: and this guy was about three and his job was

1613
01:22:56,960 --> 01:22:59,559
Speaker 1: to distill all the information in the pilots into a nice,

1614
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:02,840
Speaker 1: co hair out, well written report. And he is the

1615
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:05,759
Speaker 1: guy who leaked the report to Dominic Dunne. I remember

1616
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:09,840
Speaker 1: him and story for Vanity Fair. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, he

1617
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:13,479
Speaker 1: leaked a copy of that report to Dominic Dunn because

1618
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:17,040
Speaker 1: he felt that, you know, this report really implicated the Cagles,

1619
01:23:17,240 --> 01:23:19,760
Speaker 1: especially Michael, And of course Dominic Dunn eventually gave the

1620
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:22,040
Speaker 1: report to Mark Furman, who used this the basis for

1621
01:23:22,120 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 1: a lot of charges his book. So we talked about

1622
01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:28,120
Speaker 1: how Michael changed his story and when he when talking

1623
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:30,720
Speaker 1: to that was it was for the Sutton Yeah, so

1624
01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:32,679
Speaker 1: that was not the first time he had actually changed

1625
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:35,840
Speaker 1: his story, which we talked about, which we talked about, Yeah,

1626
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:39,719
Speaker 1: but it formed it formed the basis for the Ferman book,

1627
01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:42,840
Speaker 1: which again was the blueprint for the prosecution case. The

1628
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:45,800
Speaker 1: major difference between the prosecution of Furman's book is at

1629
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:49,559
Speaker 1: least Furman was honest enough to acknowledge the golf club

1630
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 1: handle was present at the crime scene. I mean he

1631
01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 1: and he insinuated that there was corruption in the Granwich

1632
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:58,679
Speaker 1: Police department, that perhaps a corrupt cop had had gotten

1633
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 1: rid of the evidence, but at least acknowledged that that

1634
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 1: it was president at the crime scene, which the prosecution

1635
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 1: didn't do. The prosecution said that the murderer, whoever he was,

1636
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 1: had carried it away with him from the crime scene.

1637
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:14,519
Speaker 1: Michael's also made statements to a guy named Richard Hoffman

1638
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:16,160
Speaker 1: who was a ghostwriter. He was going to write a

1639
01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:19,200
Speaker 1: book since he had been come back into the microscope.

1640
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:23,000
Speaker 1: He was gonna gonna write a book about yeah and

1641
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:25,720
Speaker 1: tell the story and all that, and and so they

1642
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:29,200
Speaker 1: made a bunch of tapes, and in these tapes he

1643
01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:31,439
Speaker 1: made some various statements, like he talked about the whole

1644
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 1: climbing of the tree thing. And he also talked about

1645
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:36,920
Speaker 1: when he woke up the next day and Dorothy Moxley

1646
01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:39,560
Speaker 1: was standing outside his bedroom door. He said it's His

1647
01:24:39,640 --> 01:24:42,559
Speaker 1: statement was basically like, oh, mared, what if she saw

1648
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 1: me last night? You know? And they played that, and

1649
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:49,120
Speaker 1: that the prosecution played that in closing arguments. They played that,

1650
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:52,200
Speaker 1: they played the tape and they had selectively edited and stuff,

1651
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:54,000
Speaker 1: and they played the tape and along with the picture

1652
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:57,040
Speaker 1: of Martha's dead body laying in the yard some kind

1653
01:24:57,080 --> 01:25:00,800
Speaker 1: of like power audio power point. There was a power point. Yeah. Yeah,

1654
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 1: and apparently that was a very yeah, that was very effective.

1655
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:07,000
Speaker 1: So that was part of their closing. Their evidence was

1656
01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:11,599
Speaker 1: basically the nonexistent seamen, which said that the prosecution actually

1657
01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:15,719
Speaker 1: stated he had he had purposely ejaculated on Martha's body

1658
01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:18,120
Speaker 1: as a final act of disrespect. And I read that,

1659
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:20,479
Speaker 1: I read the closing. That's what he said, even though

1660
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 1: nothing was found on her body. Man, Michael should have

1661
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:29,639
Speaker 1: just stuck to the shaggy defense no matter what they say,

1662
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:44,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't I But who Yeah, alright, so much for that.

1663
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:47,519
Speaker 1: But and there was a little a little more evidence.

1664
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:50,559
Speaker 1: But obviously the statement of the tape was taken by

1665
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: the journey. I mean, what if she saw me murdering Martha?

1666
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:55,160
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, that that that that was that was

1667
01:25:55,479 --> 01:25:59,920
Speaker 1: as stitched together as some of our past episodes, totally

1668
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 1: totally put together. And you know, and obviously if she

1669
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:07,960
Speaker 1: had seen Martha being murdered. I don't think she would

1670
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:09,360
Speaker 1: have waited till eight thirty in the morning to come

1671
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:11,080
Speaker 1: over and say, hey, Michael, I want to talk to

1672
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 1: you about you murdering my daughter. Yeah, but that seems

1673
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:17,559
Speaker 1: to be the implication from that. I mean, that's totally

1674
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:21,920
Speaker 1: the application. Yeah, Okay, this guy is so going to

1675
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:24,559
Speaker 1: be out of jail by the or the decisions gonna

1676
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:26,840
Speaker 1: have come through by the time this episode post. I

1677
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:30,599
Speaker 1: hope I am so. Based on what we've talked about

1678
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:34,000
Speaker 1: and I've read. I hope you guys resolutions. Good lord,

1679
01:26:34,520 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 1: you know I can't. I have to break it to you, guys,

1680
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:39,160
Speaker 1: but I gotta tell you this. Judges are more concerned

1681
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:43,160
Speaker 1: about process than they are, for the most part, about justice.

1682
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:47,000
Speaker 1: They are, but the process was ruined because they said

1683
01:26:47,080 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 1: they had evidence, which that evidence has never been presented.

1684
01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:54,000
Speaker 1: Well exactly, they like so much evidence and and and

1685
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:57,439
Speaker 1: and to take the loss of the golf club handle,

1686
01:26:57,640 --> 01:26:59,439
Speaker 1: and to make so much hay out of that, like

1687
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:03,120
Speaker 1: the points a finger at our at the and I

1688
01:27:03,280 --> 01:27:05,679
Speaker 1: just lost it. To say you have a piece of evidence,

1689
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:08,920
Speaker 1: but not make that available to the defense, To then say,

1690
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:11,200
Speaker 1: well you didn't want to do any testing on but

1691
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 1: let me do testing to see if I can prove

1692
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:16,400
Speaker 1: my client innocent. I mean, that's a process problem. This

1693
01:27:16,439 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 1: whole thing is just so yeah, okay, so that's Michael. Yeah,

1694
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:26,600
Speaker 1: the uh yeah, Well the other evidence they had is

1695
01:27:26,640 --> 01:27:28,840
Speaker 1: the ad testament. I remember I said elon the school

1696
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:31,680
Speaker 1: where they the drug adult kids and stuff like that.

1697
01:27:32,240 --> 01:27:35,479
Speaker 1: There are two guys that were at that school with

1698
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:38,000
Speaker 1: him who testified at his trial. One of them was

1699
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:41,080
Speaker 1: John Higgins. And John Higgins actually doesn't get very good

1700
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:44,720
Speaker 1: character references. I've read a lot of trial court transcripts

1701
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:46,519
Speaker 1: of various people that want to belong with him and

1702
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:49,040
Speaker 1: then had very low opinion of him, and then he

1703
01:27:49,160 --> 01:27:53,759
Speaker 1: was honest or trustworthy. But the states State of Connecticut

1704
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:57,479
Speaker 1: is an investigator. Frank gard Uh was apparently contacted by

1705
01:27:57,520 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 1: somebody in need Higgins and said that he should call

1706
01:27:59,560 --> 01:28:02,160
Speaker 1: Higgins because at this time there was a fifty dollar

1707
01:28:02,240 --> 01:28:06,680
Speaker 1: reward post posted by the Moxley family. Yeah, and so

1708
01:28:07,439 --> 01:28:11,720
Speaker 1: Higgins apparently contacted them or maybe guard contacted Higgins, and

1709
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:14,840
Speaker 1: John Higgins basically said, look, you know I didn't I

1710
01:28:15,240 --> 01:28:18,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, I know nothing because you know, I

1711
01:28:18,400 --> 01:28:21,320
Speaker 1: Michael never told me that he confessed to you, never

1712
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:24,040
Speaker 1: said he never told me he murdered Martha Moxley. And

1713
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:26,719
Speaker 1: so then Frank Garr spells out to him very carefully.

1714
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:29,679
Speaker 1: Do you know about the reward? This is a policeman again.

1715
01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:31,600
Speaker 1: Frank Carr says, do you know about the reward? And

1716
01:28:32,080 --> 01:28:34,200
Speaker 1: Higgin says, yeah, I hear it's fifty thousand bucks. And

1717
01:28:34,640 --> 01:28:36,880
Speaker 1: at the time the reward had just been raised to

1718
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:40,360
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand bucks. And so Garr says to Higgins, well,

1719
01:28:40,400 --> 01:28:43,559
Speaker 1: it's a hundred thousand bucks, and Higgins says to him, Oh,

1720
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 1: that's special. And then Gar explains to him, you know,

1721
01:28:46,640 --> 01:28:49,560
Speaker 1: like you know, the terms of it pretty much what

1722
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 1: he needs to tell him, you know, and then calls

1723
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:54,840
Speaker 1: him back, calls him back in a later time and says, hey,

1724
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:56,600
Speaker 1: have you thought about that? I thought about all this

1725
01:28:56,880 --> 01:28:59,680
Speaker 1: that And then Higgins changed And how do we know that?

1726
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:02,800
Speaker 1: By the way, is this on tape somewhere? Yeah, Frank

1727
01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 1: Guard taped the conversation, so we hear him leading building

1728
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:10,559
Speaker 1: the witnesses story and then having the witness and then

1729
01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:13,240
Speaker 1: he changes his story, and he doesn't change his story.

1730
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:16,600
Speaker 1: He doesn't change his story to Michael, saying I did it.

1731
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:19,840
Speaker 1: He changed his story to Michael saying, yeah, it was

1732
01:29:19,960 --> 01:29:22,000
Speaker 1: all kind of in a haze. It was kind of

1733
01:29:22,040 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 1: like in a dream. I was in the garage pulling

1734
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:27,800
Speaker 1: a golf club out of a set and the next

1735
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:30,160
Speaker 1: thing I know, I was running through made into a

1736
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:33,400
Speaker 1: dream scene. Yeah, TV show. Okay, I was running through

1737
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 1: some pine trees, you know, with the golf club, and

1738
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:38,640
Speaker 1: that's you know all I remember. That was enough for

1739
01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:42,519
Speaker 1: the jury. But he never actually told Higgins never actually

1740
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 1: said Michael said I did it. I mean, because he

1741
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:47,760
Speaker 1: was so he was willing to shade it in order

1742
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:50,920
Speaker 1: to collect some money. But he was not willing, apparently

1743
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:53,000
Speaker 1: to go over the line and say that Michael had

1744
01:29:53,040 --> 01:29:57,000
Speaker 1: actually said I did it. Uh. There was another witness

1745
01:29:57,120 --> 01:30:00,640
Speaker 1: is Greg Coleman. All it is for again Michael. This

1746
01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:04,720
Speaker 1: was against Michael. Yeah. Uh, similar kind of guy. Not

1747
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:07,479
Speaker 1: he was a heroin addict and uh and you know,

1748
01:30:07,640 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 1: you know heroin addict people. I don't want to sound judgmental,

1749
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:13,120
Speaker 1: but they're not the most trustworthy people, you know. But

1750
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 1: he said that Michael had confessed to him while that alone,

1751
01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:19,840
Speaker 1: he said that he had done it, and and he

1752
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 1: changed his story up a little bit. Uh, He's at

1753
01:30:22,360 --> 01:30:24,160
Speaker 1: one time he said that Michael confessed to him like

1754
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:26,840
Speaker 1: six times and then finally if he wintled it down

1755
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:31,639
Speaker 1: to maybe two times. But you know, nobody else said

1756
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:34,040
Speaker 1: a lot. Everybody else that want to along with Michael

1757
01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:36,880
Speaker 1: said that if he had fessed up it along, it

1758
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:38,600
Speaker 1: would have been all over the school. There was a

1759
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:41,120
Speaker 1: small school, about a hundred students, and they were all

1760
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 1: anything at any school spreads like wild. Yeah, they were all.

1761
01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:47,599
Speaker 1: They were totally encouraged to write each other out too,

1762
01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:50,479
Speaker 1: and so you know, and so for the other people,

1763
01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 1: there were other people that testified for defense, the defense

1764
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:55,880
Speaker 1: that said this was completely laughable. This whole idea that

1765
01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:58,559
Speaker 1: he this, this guy would have kept it to himself. Yea,

1766
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:02,479
Speaker 1: he ridiculous. So the other thing about Michael is is,

1767
01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:05,600
Speaker 1: you know, they interrogated them on the day of the

1768
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:09,400
Speaker 1: body being discovered, and they didn't give him all polygraphs.

1769
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:12,360
Speaker 1: But I saw Michael's brother, John, who was in the

1770
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:14,680
Speaker 1: car that went to the Terryans and provided him with

1771
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:17,160
Speaker 1: an alibi. I saw him on the two. He seemed

1772
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:20,080
Speaker 1: completely honest and sincere, and he said, look, you know,

1773
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:22,320
Speaker 1: I mean I was with Michael, and that's what I

1774
01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:24,760
Speaker 1: told the police the day of and I took a

1775
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:27,240
Speaker 1: polygraph test and I passed it and that was good enough.

1776
01:31:27,280 --> 01:31:29,280
Speaker 1: Now now they complaiming that we're all liars. I mean

1777
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:32,000
Speaker 1: he was, he was. He was sincerely a little outraged

1778
01:31:32,040 --> 01:31:35,519
Speaker 1: by the whole thing. Yeah, but I do think that

1779
01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:38,120
Speaker 1: Michael Skegle is innocent. I don't think I think his

1780
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:40,880
Speaker 1: alibi is solid. But one thing I forgot to mention

1781
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:44,679
Speaker 1: is that Ken Littleton was it was routinely being picked

1782
01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:46,760
Speaker 1: up by the police. And it's nineteen seventy six. He

1783
01:31:46,840 --> 01:31:50,639
Speaker 1: told Greenwich police that Russian Jr. Told him at about

1784
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:52,720
Speaker 1: nine fifteen and the night of the thirtie that he

1785
01:31:52,840 --> 01:31:55,280
Speaker 1: was going to take Jimmy Terryan back home and then

1786
01:31:55,320 --> 01:31:57,599
Speaker 1: he was taking his brother's John and Michael with him.

1787
01:31:57,760 --> 01:31:59,560
Speaker 1: He told that to the police and that was in

1788
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:06,680
Speaker 1: the police files. The police withheld that from the defense. Again, Yeah,

1789
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:09,040
Speaker 1: they withheld that from the defense, along with some other tidbits.

1790
01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:13,000
Speaker 1: So basically Michael's innocent, apparently because they could not have

1791
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:16,640
Speaker 1: gotten a conviction without undermining his alibi the way they did.

1792
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:18,960
Speaker 1: But his alibi and my and they found one there

1793
01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 1: was one other witness that was not president at the

1794
01:32:21,360 --> 01:32:23,519
Speaker 1: trial at all, who also confirmed his alibi that he

1795
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:27,360
Speaker 1: was arrians. So essentially, you know, that's it. He's innocent.

1796
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:30,200
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that the Supreme Court is gonna is

1797
01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:32,240
Speaker 1: not going to toss him back in jail, because you

1798
01:32:32,280 --> 01:32:35,040
Speaker 1: don't know the way the lawyers think. But anyway, sorry,

1799
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 1: lawyers out there, by the way, let me get on.

1800
01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:39,519
Speaker 1: So Michael's out, let's get it. Get on to the

1801
01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:41,960
Speaker 1: next ones. These ones were put forth by, first of all,

1802
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:44,880
Speaker 1: a guy named Tony Bryant. RFK Jr. Talks about him

1803
01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:48,280
Speaker 1: in his book. Tony Bryant actually went to granted, he

1804
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:51,080
Speaker 1: claims on the day of the murder. Tony is, by

1805
01:32:51,120 --> 01:32:54,720
Speaker 1: the way, his brother of Kobe Bryant, the basketball player. Yeah,

1806
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:58,360
Speaker 1: and you can see his He was interviewed by detectives

1807
01:32:58,439 --> 01:33:01,720
Speaker 1: that were sent by Mike else defense team to to

1808
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:04,400
Speaker 1: interview him. And it's it's two it's a two part video.

1809
01:33:04,439 --> 01:33:06,479
Speaker 1: It's on YouTube. If you go to and type in

1810
01:33:06,600 --> 01:33:10,160
Speaker 1: Tony Bryant interview you'll find it. Have you seen it? Uh?

1811
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:13,800
Speaker 1: Start ringing a bell? Okay, Uh, So you talked about

1812
01:33:13,800 --> 01:33:15,320
Speaker 1: these two guys that he went to high school with

1813
01:33:15,760 --> 01:33:18,320
Speaker 1: Tony used to actually go to school and live in Grantwich,

1814
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:20,439
Speaker 1: but then he moved to New York City and he

1815
01:33:20,520 --> 01:33:22,240
Speaker 1: was going to a much rougher high school, and he

1816
01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:25,000
Speaker 1: knew these two big dudes. They were like sixteen years old,

1817
01:33:25,439 --> 01:33:28,800
Speaker 1: Adolf Passbrooke and Burton Tinsley. The three of them like

1818
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:31,160
Speaker 1: to actually occasionally go out to bell Haven and hang

1819
01:33:31,240 --> 01:33:33,840
Speaker 1: out since he used since Tony used to live out there,

1820
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:36,760
Speaker 1: and apparently he said He says in his interview that

1821
01:33:36,840 --> 01:33:40,400
Speaker 1: Adolf became obsessed with Martha. He met her apparently a

1822
01:33:40,439 --> 01:33:44,080
Speaker 1: few times, and he believes that from things that he

1823
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:47,760
Speaker 1: said that Adolphinburg said before and after the murder, he

1824
01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 1: believes that they did it. I don't want to get

1825
01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 1: into great detail, by the way, there I do want

1826
01:33:52,320 --> 01:33:54,840
Speaker 1: to say, by the way, there's no corroborating evidence I

1827
01:33:54,960 --> 01:34:01,760
Speaker 1: was for those two. Yeah, there for him, there is. Yeah,

1828
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:04,120
Speaker 1: there is not again, not much in the way of evidence.

1829
01:34:04,439 --> 01:34:09,080
Speaker 1: But apparently these guys did did lawyer up and they're

1830
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:11,840
Speaker 1: not talking. But and again I'm not I'm not saying

1831
01:34:11,880 --> 01:34:14,599
Speaker 1: they're guilty of anything because frankly, I I really don't

1832
01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:16,720
Speaker 1: see much of a motive here. So let's move on

1833
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:20,599
Speaker 1: to our last suspect, Tommy's giggle. Tommy, as as we've noticed,

1834
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:23,880
Speaker 1: had a history of violent outbursts. He changed his story.

1835
01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:27,920
Speaker 1: Like Michael, he changed his story. But here's the deal.

1836
01:34:28,040 --> 01:34:30,960
Speaker 1: Michael changed his story a lot sooner, before DNA was

1837
01:34:31,040 --> 01:34:33,160
Speaker 1: a thing. Tommy waited until out there there were a

1838
01:34:33,200 --> 01:34:36,599
Speaker 1: couple of couple of sudden investigators has had him down

1839
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:40,400
Speaker 1: for an interrogation summer of one of them, Billy Krebs,

1840
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:44,960
Speaker 1: I think he was x NYPD, said look, Tommy, you

1841
01:34:45,040 --> 01:34:47,080
Speaker 1: gotta you gotta understand this. We're gonna be doing some

1842
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:50,560
Speaker 1: DNA testing and so you know, if there's anything that

1843
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:53,639
Speaker 1: you haven't told us before, you should tell us now.

1844
01:34:54,360 --> 01:35:00,080
Speaker 1: That's standard procedure to rattle somebody. Okay, yeah, yeah, And

1845
01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:05,360
Speaker 1: that is when Tommy changed his story and said that

1846
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:08,160
Speaker 1: they spent on extra twenty minutes between nine thirty and

1847
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:10,960
Speaker 1: nine fifty out back behind the tool shed in the

1848
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:17,000
Speaker 1: yard doing their whole hands hands pants thing and they

1849
01:35:17,040 --> 01:35:20,160
Speaker 1: were leading on a pretty hard Apparently that from what

1850
01:35:20,240 --> 01:35:23,800
Speaker 1: I can, what I understand is the investigators were they

1851
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:27,559
Speaker 1: were they were after he changed his story, and apparently

1852
01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:30,599
Speaker 1: Tommy looked like he was about to cry then want

1853
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:33,679
Speaker 1: him to suggest that they that they take a break.

1854
01:35:33,960 --> 01:35:37,160
Speaker 1: Billy Krabs was infuriated by this because it broke the

1855
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:40,400
Speaker 1: whole It broke the whole tension thing, and also it

1856
01:35:40,479 --> 01:35:44,080
Speaker 1: allowed Manny Margolis, who was present lawyer, to basically put

1857
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:46,519
Speaker 1: an end to the whole interview. So they never got

1858
01:35:46,520 --> 01:35:49,080
Speaker 1: any further with Tommy. But I gotta say, I mean,

1859
01:35:49,160 --> 01:35:51,400
Speaker 1: I mean, all the suspicion has been cast upon Michael

1860
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:53,840
Speaker 1: because he changed his story, because that would account for

1861
01:35:54,240 --> 01:35:58,799
Speaker 1: see human being present when it was. Yeah, when Tommy

1862
01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:01,360
Speaker 1: did the same thing and the exact thing. And the

1863
01:36:01,439 --> 01:36:05,000
Speaker 1: thing is he didn't do it until here's the other thing.

1864
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:07,479
Speaker 1: Tommy lied the night of or I should say he

1865
01:36:07,800 --> 01:36:10,599
Speaker 1: he lied the day after. Now I can see why

1866
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:13,040
Speaker 1: Tommy would leave a few silaous details out. I can

1867
01:36:13,080 --> 01:36:17,360
Speaker 1: see why why he would leave out the party about

1868
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:20,200
Speaker 1: the hands pants. But you don't have to lie about

1869
01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:22,439
Speaker 1: when you actually parted ways with her, and that would

1870
01:36:22,439 --> 01:36:24,439
Speaker 1: be useful information for the police who are trying to

1871
01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:26,680
Speaker 1: establish the time of death and what her movements were.

1872
01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:31,400
Speaker 1: But he lied, and well, Hamm, there's no conceivable reason

1873
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:33,719
Speaker 1: to lie when he could have just sanitized his account,

1874
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:37,560
Speaker 1: except he wanted to remove himself as far away in

1875
01:36:37,800 --> 01:36:40,200
Speaker 1: time as he could from the actual time of death,

1876
01:36:40,400 --> 01:36:43,600
Speaker 1: which he knew. He but he no, he doesn't have

1877
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:46,559
Speaker 1: to have known the time of death. We talked about

1878
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 1: this earlier. You're of seventeen year old kid. You've been

1879
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:56,840
Speaker 1: playing tickle with a girl, and you know that's not

1880
01:36:57,080 --> 01:37:00,240
Speaker 1: going to go down well with your family, led loan

1881
01:37:00,360 --> 01:37:03,479
Speaker 1: the cops now that she has found with a golf

1882
01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:07,439
Speaker 1: club stuck in her neck. But of course you're gonna

1883
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:12,479
Speaker 1: You're gonna try foolishly because you don't think clearly in

1884
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,639
Speaker 1: the heat of the moment. You're you're you're putting your

1885
01:37:15,760 --> 01:37:18,760
Speaker 1: all of your investigation time to say, well, obviously it

1886
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:22,040
Speaker 1: would make sense, but you don't know that at the time.

1887
01:37:22,360 --> 01:37:24,600
Speaker 1: For him, did you go, I don't know. I no, No,

1888
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 1: We kissed and we walked away. We were doing anything, untoured,

1889
01:37:29,560 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 1: nothing at all. But there's the deal. Is that again,

1890
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:35,000
Speaker 1: Tommy didn't he could just sanitize his account. All you

1891
01:37:35,040 --> 01:37:37,120
Speaker 1: needed to do. Let's say, yeah, we hung out, we

1892
01:37:37,240 --> 01:37:40,120
Speaker 1: sipped beers, we smoked a cigarette, we parted way as

1893
01:37:40,120 --> 01:37:42,719
Speaker 1: a ten minute still ten and you're giving Billie because

1894
01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:48,240
Speaker 1: again at this time, but if Tommy didn't do the crime,

1895
01:37:48,560 --> 01:37:50,479
Speaker 1: then Tommy had no clue what the time of the

1896
01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:52,640
Speaker 1: murder was. As far as tommy, it was midnight, it

1897
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:55,240
Speaker 1: was three and three am. He had no idea. Well,

1898
01:37:55,320 --> 01:37:58,240
Speaker 1: he went on TV show at some point and he

1899
01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:01,320
Speaker 1: may have done really crappy man as to what time

1900
01:38:01,400 --> 01:38:05,360
Speaker 1: he left her. But I don't know that I understand

1901
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:09,600
Speaker 1: that you feel that it is really really important that

1902
01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:13,360
Speaker 1: he changed his story the way he did. I don't

1903
01:38:13,400 --> 01:38:15,720
Speaker 1: see it the same way. I think it casts a

1904
01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:18,280
Speaker 1: lot more suspicion on Tommy than it does on Michael.

1905
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:20,560
Speaker 1: Michael had better reason to leave out his account of

1906
01:38:20,720 --> 01:38:23,680
Speaker 1: climbing the tree and playing pocket pool. Tommy had no

1907
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:27,439
Speaker 1: reason to not tell the police the time that he

1908
01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:30,519
Speaker 1: parted ways with Martha. I want to clarify when he

1909
01:38:30,640 --> 01:38:33,280
Speaker 1: told police that was it after they found her body

1910
01:38:33,400 --> 01:38:35,559
Speaker 1: or before they found her body. That was after they

1911
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:38,960
Speaker 1: found a body, but before before any time of death

1912
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:43,439
Speaker 1: had been established. Yeah, established that it does with a

1913
01:38:43,520 --> 01:38:46,960
Speaker 1: good solid window. Yeah, it does, and so and so Again,

1914
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:49,240
Speaker 1: that's a little bit of a head scratcher when he

1915
01:38:49,360 --> 01:38:51,639
Speaker 1: could have provided them with a little more solid information

1916
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:56,000
Speaker 1: that he chose to lie instead. Um, you know, well, realistically,

1917
01:38:56,160 --> 01:38:58,680
Speaker 1: I have a really crappy sense of time, and I

1918
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:01,479
Speaker 1: couldn't tell you like, you know, this episode feels like

1919
01:39:01,560 --> 01:39:04,840
Speaker 1: it's been literally ten hours, but you know it's been

1920
01:39:04,920 --> 01:39:07,800
Speaker 1: what like too So I think, you know, for me,

1921
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:11,240
Speaker 1: as somebody with a really bad sense of time, it's

1922
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:13,040
Speaker 1: reasonable to say like, I don't know, we hung out

1923
01:39:13,080 --> 01:39:15,160
Speaker 1: for ten more minutes. Well then, but then I thought

1924
01:39:15,200 --> 01:39:17,240
Speaker 1: we had a bad sense of time. Then how do

1925
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:19,280
Speaker 1: we know we parted ways from Martha ten minutes? Still

1926
01:39:19,320 --> 01:39:22,760
Speaker 1: tenn and not we don't We don't really know that,

1927
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:25,640
Speaker 1: But it just seems to me that the later it

1928
01:39:25,760 --> 01:39:29,040
Speaker 1: goes the like later her time of death is. You know,

1929
01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:31,160
Speaker 1: for me, it's just saying like, I don't know. I

1930
01:39:31,200 --> 01:39:34,880
Speaker 1: mean not to sound like a jerk, but it could

1931
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:37,120
Speaker 1: have been that he hung out with her for five

1932
01:39:37,439 --> 01:39:41,000
Speaker 1: or ten minutes and she talked to him the whole

1933
01:39:41,200 --> 01:39:43,920
Speaker 1: time and him being a tiple. Go dude, it's like

1934
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:47,479
Speaker 1: this has been going on for so long, she just

1935
01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:51,160
Speaker 1: won't stop talking. It feels like I've been here for

1936
01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:57,120
Speaker 1: like twenty minutes. Alternate alternately, right, Um, you ever been

1937
01:39:57,280 --> 01:39:59,600
Speaker 1: like having sex and been like oh my god, this

1938
01:39:59,760 --> 01:40:01,800
Speaker 1: is the most amazing hour of my life. And you

1939
01:40:01,840 --> 01:40:04,120
Speaker 1: look at the clock and you're like, it's been five minutes,

1940
01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:07,720
Speaker 1: Like do you ever do that? Though, Like ever in

1941
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:09,560
Speaker 1: your life have you been like, wow, this is like

1942
01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:14,320
Speaker 1: amazing And then you're really So there's also I guess,

1943
01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:18,200
Speaker 1: some reality to him, you know, them engaging in whatever

1944
01:40:18,240 --> 01:40:20,840
Speaker 1: we're calling it, hands pants or whatever, right, and them

1945
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:24,160
Speaker 1: both thinking like oh my god, or him particularly being like, wow,

1946
01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:27,840
Speaker 1: that was an amazing ten minutes, but actually it was

1947
01:40:27,920 --> 01:40:30,679
Speaker 1: like an hour, or even vice versa where he says

1948
01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:36,599
Speaker 1: and then you know, Ken says, no, dude, you were here,

1949
01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:40,400
Speaker 1: you know, ten minutes later, and he's like, oh really, Well, honestly,

1950
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:42,720
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how Tommy kept track of time.

1951
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:44,600
Speaker 1: They might have had clocks, he might have glasced at

1952
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:46,639
Speaker 1: clocks the whole time, and he might be off something.

1953
01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:49,560
Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is is that he

1954
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:52,800
Speaker 1: deliberately chose to put himself as far away from the

1955
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:56,919
Speaker 1: time of murder as possible, which, in my opinion, is behavior.

1956
01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:01,680
Speaker 1: You can't say that Joe cannot a he deliberately did it.

1957
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:05,200
Speaker 1: Of course, you don't know that. You can't say that

1958
01:41:05,520 --> 01:41:08,000
Speaker 1: you don't know that you had no reason to do otherwise,

1959
01:41:08,439 --> 01:41:12,040
Speaker 1: he may not have done it intentionally. How can you

1960
01:41:12,120 --> 01:41:14,800
Speaker 1: say that, because we just had the conversation. If he

1961
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:17,320
Speaker 1: may have a crappy sense of time, so you can't

1962
01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:19,720
Speaker 1: say he's doing it intentionally. I think it was Peter,

1963
01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 1: Peter Man Peter. Yeah. The nice thing about Peter is

1964
01:41:25,000 --> 01:41:26,760
Speaker 1: he's one of the dead ones, so you can keep

1965
01:41:26,800 --> 01:41:30,559
Speaker 1: him of all kinds of stuff. So, in fairness to Tommy,

1966
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:33,200
Speaker 1: Tommy has lived under a cloud of suspicion for many,

1967
01:41:33,280 --> 01:41:35,439
Speaker 1: many years. I think a lot of people still suspect

1968
01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:39,080
Speaker 1: Tommy of being the killer, and you know, we don't

1969
01:41:39,120 --> 01:41:42,960
Speaker 1: really know. I mean, Tommy is uh. I still like

1970
01:41:43,080 --> 01:41:45,160
Speaker 1: Tommy as a suspect. But I have to tell you

1971
01:41:45,240 --> 01:41:47,280
Speaker 1: if I were sitting on a jury, I would not

1972
01:41:47,400 --> 01:41:50,320
Speaker 1: vote to convict Tommy of anything. I wouldn't know. There's yeah,

1973
01:41:50,320 --> 01:41:54,599
Speaker 1: there's no there's no solid evidence anywhere now there isn't there.

1974
01:41:55,120 --> 01:41:59,680
Speaker 1: And so whoever killed Martha? You know, I think that

1975
01:41:59,760 --> 01:42:06,200
Speaker 1: he has gotten away with it, but that happens. Yeah, Well,

1976
01:42:06,360 --> 01:42:08,560
Speaker 1: let's do some of that housekeeping stuff. Do we do

1977
01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:11,519
Speaker 1: with the other episodes? Yeah? Uh, First of all, our

1978
01:42:11,600 --> 01:42:15,320
Speaker 1: website Thinking Sideways podcast dot com where you can find

1979
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:18,680
Speaker 1: our episodes. You can't come anymore unfortunately, but you can

1980
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:21,800
Speaker 1: still listen to the episodes. Uh. And there's always links

1981
01:42:21,840 --> 01:42:25,599
Speaker 1: out there also uh for two various stories and things

1982
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:29,120
Speaker 1: and sources. You can also download and listen to us

1983
01:42:29,160 --> 01:42:32,479
Speaker 1: from iTunes where you know you should subscribe and give

1984
01:42:32,560 --> 01:42:34,559
Speaker 1: us a rating and give us a review hopefully really

1985
01:42:34,600 --> 01:42:38,679
Speaker 1: good rating. Review and streaming. There's like everywhere this Google play.

1986
01:42:38,760 --> 01:42:44,880
Speaker 1: Also social media, we're on Facebook. You've heard about Facebook, right, yeah? Uh,

1987
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:47,800
Speaker 1: as there's a group. Yeah, well there's a there's a

1988
01:42:47,840 --> 01:42:49,479
Speaker 1: group and as a page you want to join the group.

1989
01:42:49,560 --> 01:42:53,000
Speaker 1: Of course. We are on the Twitter. We are Thinking

1990
01:42:53,200 --> 01:42:56,720
Speaker 1: Sideways without the G and a subreddit. So we have

1991
01:42:56,720 --> 01:43:00,240
Speaker 1: a subreddit called thinking Sideways. And of course, so if

1992
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:01,680
Speaker 1: you want to get in contact with us, we have

1993
01:43:01,760 --> 01:43:04,760
Speaker 1: an email. You've heard about email, right, this one this

1994
01:43:04,920 --> 01:43:08,720
Speaker 1: new amazing thing. Yeah, um, it's called our email is

1995
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:12,920
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Have you got

1996
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:15,600
Speaker 1: anything you want to tell us criticism especially, send it

1997
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:18,720
Speaker 1: to us to through the email. We accept criticism or

1998
01:43:18,760 --> 01:43:21,960
Speaker 1: that we prefer compliments, but you know we'll take feedback

1999
01:43:22,000 --> 01:43:25,120
Speaker 1: to you can also support us. First of all, merchandise

2000
01:43:25,240 --> 01:43:28,519
Speaker 1: you'll find on our website links to fun things like

2001
01:43:28,640 --> 01:43:32,080
Speaker 1: shirts and MUDs and stickers. Uh, there's Azzle and Red

2002
01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:35,800
Speaker 1: Bubbles stores linked in the right hand panel of the website. Uh,

2003
01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:38,160
Speaker 1: there's also if you want to donate, you can donate

2004
01:43:38,200 --> 01:43:41,160
Speaker 1: through PayPal, which would be a one time thing, or

2005
01:43:41,320 --> 01:43:44,200
Speaker 1: Patreon and Patreon it's patreon dot com, p A t

2006
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:49,840
Speaker 1: R e o N dot com slash thinking sideways and

2007
01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:51,439
Speaker 1: that's the one where you kind of you pledge in

2008
01:43:51,479 --> 01:43:54,800
Speaker 1: them ount and then they take that amount out of

2009
01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:58,720
Speaker 1: your credit card or whatever for you know, every episode. Uh,

2010
01:43:58,880 --> 01:44:02,320
Speaker 1: you know, so you can a dollar a million dollars,

2011
01:44:02,360 --> 01:44:05,560
Speaker 1: that would be really nice. But but just remember that

2012
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:07,519
Speaker 1: whatever you played just not a one time thing. It

2013
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:10,920
Speaker 1: happens every episode except for the shorts. Occasionally we put

2014
01:44:11,000 --> 01:44:13,200
Speaker 1: up shorts and special things and then we don't charge

2015
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:15,160
Speaker 1: for those. But so if you want to support us

2016
01:44:15,160 --> 01:44:18,080
Speaker 1: that way, that would be awesome. Uh, and thank you

2017
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:22,880
Speaker 1: for everybody. Do appreciate that. It really helps to the

2018
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:26,200
Speaker 1: free expenses. So that's it. The Murder of Martha Moxley.

2019
01:44:26,240 --> 01:44:28,000
Speaker 1: I guess we gotta wrap this mystery up. You Guys,

2020
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:34,400
Speaker 1: have your final thoughts. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't me either,

2021
01:44:34,560 --> 01:44:38,400
Speaker 1: So anyway, too bad about Martha, that too bad about Michael. Anyway.

2022
01:44:38,479 --> 01:44:40,800
Speaker 1: That's it for this week. Guys. Let's see you next week.

2023
01:44:41,439 --> 01:44:41,479
Speaker 1: But