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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most.

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Speaker 2: Compelling true crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic

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Speaker 2: techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Paul, Hey Kate, how's it going?

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Speaker 1: This is a momentous day because this is our anniversary?

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Speaker 1: Can you believe it?

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Speaker 3: Did I forget something? Here? I'm in trouble, aren't I?

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Speaker 1: Your poor wife?

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Speaker 3: You are?

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Speaker 1: This is our one hundredth episode. Can you believe it?

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Speaker 1: Of Buried Bones? One hundred?

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Speaker 3: Wow?

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Speaker 1: How's that possible?

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Speaker 3: It's gone by quick now they think about it.

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Speaker 2: M hmm.

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Speaker 1: I think it's gone by really quickly, and it is

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Speaker 1: due all to my brilliance in your charm, or it

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Speaker 1: could be my term in your brilliance and release sure

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Speaker 1: which one is?

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Speaker 3: I think it's your charm and your brilliance, and I

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Speaker 3: just kind of show up.

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Speaker 1: That's an excellent, very husband answer. I think, props to

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Speaker 1: your wife. So listen, I know you didn't get me

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Speaker 1: a gift, because I can tell you didn't give me

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Speaker 1: a gift. So I have a suggestion. I went to

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Speaker 1: special speeches dot com, which is the only places I

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Speaker 1: feel like gave me a reliable answer. I asked, what

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Speaker 1: is the one hundredth wedding anniversary gift? And I know

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Speaker 1: this is not one hundred years for us, one hundred

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Speaker 1: episodes and you know, I'm just trying to figure it out.

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Speaker 1: And they said, it's a ten carrot diamond. Wow, ten carrots?

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Speaker 1: You know how much time do you need to get

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Speaker 1: that together? Good God, But we've been together for a

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Speaker 1: long time and it's been just a great one hundred episodes,

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Speaker 1: and I'm here for a thousand more as far as

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Speaker 1: I'm concerned, and so are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm assuming absolutely.

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Speaker 2: This has just been This has been such a breath

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Speaker 2: of fresh air over the last one hundred episodes, you know,

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Speaker 2: getting to talk to you and here are the cases

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Speaker 2: and you know, meeting our listeners, you know, and I've

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Speaker 2: been out and about on various conferences and stuff, and

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Speaker 2: how much they enjoy the episodes. So yep, I'm looking

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Speaker 2: forward to the next hundred episodes.

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Speaker 1: Well, happy anniversary, Paul, before we jump into this next.

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Speaker 3: One, happy anniversary back at you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go ahead and set the scene. This is

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Speaker 1: a murder mystery. I say this with all our stories,

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Speaker 1: but this is a mystery truly. You know, you have

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people at a dinner party and somebody

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Speaker 1: ends up dead and we have to figure out what happened,

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Speaker 1: and we don't have a lot of those. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever done one of those murder mystery weekends? I really

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Speaker 1: want to do that one time.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It almost sounds like the board game Clue, right it is.

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Speaker 2: You know, the lights go out, somebody screams, and lights

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Speaker 2: come back on and somebody's dead.

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Speaker 1: Yep, yep. There's a doctor, there's a you know, like

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Speaker 1: a boarder. There are a bunch of young women, there's

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Speaker 1: like a nurse, there's a little boy, and there's on

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Speaker 1: these multiple rooms a very specific murder weapon. Though, So

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and jump into this for our one hundredth.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you know, I'm trying to bring you a

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Speaker 1: murder mystery, and this one comes from a listener. We

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Speaker 1: love our listeners. This is set at eighteen ninety one.

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Speaker 1: It's in Wisconsin and Richland's Center, Wisconsin. I can't remember

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Speaker 1: if we've done I feel like we've probably have done

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Speaker 1: a Wisconsin one before, but I just wouldn't be able

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Speaker 1: to remember what that is. Not that I recall listeners.

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Speaker 1: Once you've done one hundred episodes, are they start to

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Speaker 1: run together? The states do, at least the states start

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Speaker 1: to run together for me? Okay, so this is Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: Richland Center is about fifty miles from Wisconsin Dell's which

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Speaker 1: is now a popular tourist destination known as the water

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Speaker 1: park capital of the World. My kids would go there

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Speaker 1: in a millisecond. They're into water parks. They would go

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Speaker 1: in December if I let them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the way kids are.

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Speaker 1: Your kids like the water parks too.

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Speaker 3: You know they do.

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Speaker 2: They haven't gone that much. When I was growing up,

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Speaker 2: I'd go to the water park. It was say, I

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Speaker 2: remember in San Antonio there was a really really cool.

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Speaker 3: Water park there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this is now very popular area. This is

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Speaker 1: sort of a you know where we're talking about, which

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Speaker 1: is close to turn of the century. This is, you

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Speaker 1: know now, a place that it's certainly not rural, but

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not Milwaukee or anything. And I don't

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Speaker 1: think the place plays as much into this as maybe

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Speaker 1: the time period. So let me tell you about the caric.

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Speaker 1: We have a young woman who is twenty three years old.

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Speaker 1: Her name is Ella. I'll remember that because I have

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Speaker 1: an Ella, Ella Molly, and she has a younger sister

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Speaker 1: named Lily, and Ella Molly is really well known. They

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Speaker 1: both are young attractive women. We say that kind of

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Speaker 1: will come into play later. She has a really busy

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Speaker 1: social life, and she and her younger sister are invited

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Speaker 1: to a dinner party at a local physician's house. This

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Speaker 1: is a guy named doctor George Mitchell. So he's a

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Speaker 1: country doctor, very well liked. He is a widower. He

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Speaker 1: had a wife named Minnie Mitchell, who died in March

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Speaker 1: of eighteen ninety, so this is not even a year

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Speaker 1: ago that his wife died. They had a ten year

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Speaker 1: old son, his name is Freddie. And the complications were

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Speaker 1: and this will be interesting to talk to you about.

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Speaker 1: Many died from complications from what started with after childbirth.

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Speaker 1: So she gave birth to a little girl named Latti,

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Speaker 1: and she had been ill ever since. So in my

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Speaker 1: experience with stories in the eighteen hundreds, they had called

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Speaker 1: that child bed fever. You know, this is I'm presuming

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Speaker 1: a bacterial infection. She was sick for a couple of months,

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Speaker 1: she just was not right, and she died. And this

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Speaker 1: was fairly common in this time period.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've gone to some of these old

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Speaker 2: cemeteries and you see, of course, you know, gravestones with

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Speaker 2: newborns on there, but then every now and then you

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Speaker 2: see the mom and obviously childbirth is very traumatic to

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Speaker 2: the body, and I could imagine, yeah, something happened where

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Speaker 2: she got an infection, probably went sepsis and you know,

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Speaker 2: passed away.

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Speaker 3: That's ad.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I had read when I

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Speaker 1: was doing research was that it was often caused by

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Speaker 1: doctors not washing their hands oh before delivery.

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Speaker 3: That makes sense, yep, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, well, there are a lot of quirky things in

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Speaker 1: this story that I'll say, did you know that this

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Speaker 1: happened in the eighteen hundreds, And I'll be interested to

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Speaker 1: hear what you say so many died, and doctor Mitchell's

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Speaker 1: on his own, he has been for almost a year.

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Speaker 1: He has this ten year old and then, you know,

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Speaker 1: I immediately thought, how is he handling a newborn baby

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Speaker 1: who would have been almost a year old, about a

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Speaker 1: year at this point. And the baby went to go

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Speaker 1: live with her sister, with the mom's sister, with Minnie's sister,

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Speaker 1: which was completely normal. You know, a single man not

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Speaker 1: able to handle a baby. And even though he had money,

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Speaker 1: I didn't get the impression that he was excessively wealthy.

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Speaker 1: He's a country doctor, so that would have been normal.

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Speaker 1: It still startles me a little bit to hear men

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Speaker 1: giving over children, because you know, they just simply can't

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Speaker 1: handle it. But thinking about the times, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: always sort of not surprised, but still a little like,

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Speaker 1: oh gosh, I can't believe that. So doctor Mitchell, before

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Speaker 1: his wife Minnie died, they brought in a border and

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Speaker 1: you know, she was somebody who they were planning to

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Speaker 1: help take care of the baby a little bit and

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Speaker 1: just sort of clean up. They actually have a de

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Speaker 1: amount of people around and I'll tell you about that

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Speaker 1: in a minute. So her name is Rosa Zoaldowski. She's

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Speaker 1: twenty four and she's really good friends with Ella and Lily.

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Speaker 1: So Rosa has a friend who's getting engaged that they

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Speaker 1: all know, and they want to have a little dinner party.

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Speaker 1: And she goes to doctor Mitchell and says, can I

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Speaker 1: throw this party at your house? And he says, fine,

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Speaker 1: I'll be working, but I'll be coming back at some point,

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Speaker 1: and she says okay, So she arranges to have some

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Speaker 1: people come over. All of these are young women who

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Speaker 1: know each other from church. Ella and Lily don't go

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Speaker 1: to the same church, but Ella plays the organ on

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Speaker 1: Sundays at this church where all of these other women are,

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Speaker 1: so that's how everybody knows each other. It's just a

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Speaker 1: bunch of young women who are coming over for this

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Speaker 1: fun little dinner party, which is nice. So the doctor says, sure,

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Speaker 1: you know, clean up and all that stuff. Rosa had

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Speaker 1: been with the Mitchells just for context about three years

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Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty eight, and the doctor and the wife

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Speaker 1: took her in and she first worked around the house

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Speaker 1: and then she started working at a millinery. Do you

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Speaker 1: know what that is?

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Speaker 3: Is that like a mill of some sort.

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Speaker 1: It's a hat making shop. Oh, millinery, so she starts

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Speaker 1: working there. I think she's still doing stuff around the house,

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Speaker 1: but that becomes her full time job. She had moved

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Speaker 1: from a farm about ten miles away. Her family's still

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Speaker 1: on the farm Roses family, but she moves to Richland

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Speaker 1: Center in Wisconsin and the family relocates to Missouri, so

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Speaker 1: she's really part of Mill's doctor Mitchell's family. On Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: as planned, Rosa you know, reminds everybody come over and

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Speaker 1: you know, we'll have dinner and then we can all

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Speaker 1: go to church afterwards. She wants to serve oysters, which

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Speaker 1: would have been, you know, a really kind ofly a

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Speaker 1: delicacy in the eighteen hundreds, just like they are now.

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Speaker 1: Rosa had gone out earlier that day to get some

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Speaker 1: oysters and had gone to another shop and she bought

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Speaker 1: some chocolate creams for desserts. The chocolate creams was interesting.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking it was sort of like an egg cream,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't. In this case. This is like a

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Speaker 1: truffle like confectionery, Like there's cream instead of a chocolate shell,

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Speaker 1: kind of like a ganache, which sounds delicious to me,

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Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure it's not going to be on

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Speaker 1: any of your menus at a lot of sugar and

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Speaker 1: a lot of chocolate, it sounds good to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not nothing that would be eating right now,

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Speaker 2: but it definitely would be good.

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Speaker 3: I don't deny that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good. So there are six women at this dinner party,

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Speaker 1: including Rosa and the Molly sisters. And during the party,

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Speaker 1: Freddy's around he's ten. There's a housekeeper named Anna McLaren,

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Speaker 1: and there's another one who they call Grandma Handy, and

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Speaker 1: these are all people who are in the house. So

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Speaker 1: you've got, you know, these six people, plus you've got

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Speaker 1: a kid and two housekeepers who are in the house.

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Speaker 1: And doctor Mitchell is away but just for a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So Rosa serves oyster soup for dinner, and then she

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Speaker 1: serves some oranges, and then they have cake for dessert.

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Speaker 1: There were two cakes, one that Lily had made and

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Speaker 1: the other was baked by another party guest. So they're

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Speaker 1: all eating and doctor Mitchell comes home after dinner is served.

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Speaker 1: So in the middle of dinner, Rosa says she does

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Speaker 1: not feel well, and she goes upstairs to her room

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Speaker 1: and she lays down, and it sounds like she's complaining

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Speaker 1: of stomach pains. She feels really sick. There's a party

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Speaker 1: guest who goes up to check on her, and she's

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Speaker 1: on her bed. She's really complaining about her stomach. The

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Speaker 1: other guests are concerned and sad about Rosa, but they

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Speaker 1: keep eating. I'm not sure I would be eating an

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Speaker 1: oyster soup after that is because I can you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can imagine if you have bad oysters.

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Speaker 1: I would assume that that would give you a lot

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Speaker 1: of nausea and could that kill you? That kind of thing?

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Speaker 2: I think it depends on, you know, the bacteria. You know,

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Speaker 2: you know, some of this food poisoning, the bacteria ends

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Speaker 2: up affecting the upper GI track. And that's the type

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Speaker 2: of thing food poisoning that you get pretty quickly after

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Speaker 2: you ingest the food versus other types of bacteria end

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Speaker 2: up colonizing your colon, and it takes several days before

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Speaker 2: that happens.

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Speaker 3: That's like that E. Coli one five seven.

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Speaker 2: They can take a few days before you actually start

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Speaker 2: developing symptoms.

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Speaker 1: Well, we don't know what's happening with Rosa yet. We

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Speaker 1: just know that she has a really bad upset stomach.

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Speaker 1: So there's a guest who goes upstairs as I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and checks on Rosa, and Rosa asks for Ella, her friend,

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Speaker 1: to come upstairs. Ella comes upstairs, she checks on her.

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Speaker 1: They both come back downstairs. As soon as Rosa kind

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Speaker 1: of hits the bottom step, she vomits into a basin

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Speaker 1: and decides she needs to lie down. So this is

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Speaker 1: pretty instant. You know, this is in the middle of

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Speaker 1: a dinner, definitely less than an hour after eating this

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Speaker 1: oyster soup and the oranges for dinner. I think they've

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Speaker 1: also gotten to dessert. At this point, she's laying on

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Speaker 1: this lab and everybody is, you know, concerned about her,

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Speaker 1: but essentially they clear out. They just said, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: they need to go to church, and she says it's okay,

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Speaker 1: don't worry. So the women pack up and they start

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Speaker 1: to go to church. And I don't know where doctor

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Speaker 1: Mitchell is right now. No one else is really around,

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Speaker 1: so Freddie, it sounds like it's upstairs. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: the other two housekeepers are upstairs, so it's really just

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Speaker 1: Rosa And at this point Ella and Lily are staying behind.

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Speaker 1: They don't plan to go to church. It's not their church.

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Speaker 1: So Rosa gets herself up and she says, you know,

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Speaker 1: at about eight o'clock, Okay, I probably need to go rest.

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Speaker 1: And she says goodbye and hand some some leftovers if

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Speaker 1: they want any. And as they walk home after Rosa

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Speaker 1: goes upstairs. As they walk home, Ella starts to feel sick. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so I have a pretty good physical description of what

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Speaker 1: Ella is telling her sisters she's feeling. But as of

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Speaker 1: right now, you know, this could be what food poisoning

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Speaker 1: any of this stuff the major indigestion. Would it happen

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Speaker 1: that quickly, like in the middle of dinner if you're

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Speaker 1: eating oysters or something that's gone bad.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure, you know, this seems like

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Speaker 2: it is awfully quick, especially if it's a bacterial type

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Speaker 2: of issue. Maybe it's more of a poison you know,

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Speaker 2: that could impact things pretty quickly. So I don't know

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Speaker 2: at this point, but I was wondering if it's only Rosa,

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Speaker 2: then I would question what the source of the ingestion was,

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Speaker 2: or what the source of the illness was. Now that

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Speaker 2: Ella is starting to feel something, then yeah, maybe you know,

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Speaker 2: the common food that they've been eating could be a source.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it is happening quickly, though, and we are a

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Speaker 1: murder show, so let me remind you of that, Paul.

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Speaker 1: We do talk about murder an awful lot on this show.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil things, understood, okay, So let

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Speaker 1: me give you a physical description of what's happening with Ella.

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Speaker 1: She says she has a sensation in her feet, but

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Speaker 1: she says, I need to keep going. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if she means a tingling in her feet. She feels

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Speaker 1: something and she now and then says pretty quickly, it's

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Speaker 1: going all over me. And before she and her sister

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Speaker 1: get home, Ella collapses on the ground. Ella and her

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Speaker 1: sister are both crying out for help. Lily does not

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Speaker 1: appear to have any symptoms so far, and some bystanders

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Speaker 1: help them get to the rest of the way home,

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Speaker 1: but Ella doesn't want anybody touching her, and eventually, once

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Speaker 1: they get her in the house, while she is being

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Speaker 1: carried in the house, she starts convulsing and she bites

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Speaker 1: her tongue so hard that it bleeds. I'm assuming now

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Speaker 1: this sounds like poison.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, Yeah, I am moved off any food poisoning. This

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Speaker 2: really does sound like a poison that is now systemic

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Speaker 2: within Ella and Wondering di Rosa have the same symptoms.

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Speaker 1: We have a ton of information about the symptoms that

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Speaker 1: Rosa had and the reason is just as of far

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Speaker 1: as right now, is that Ella was really the main

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Speaker 1: person who spoke to her, so you know, she was

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Speaker 1: definitely complaining about a hurt stomach, and of course she vomited,

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Speaker 1: and we have more information about what happens with rosa.

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Speaker 1: There are two doctors who come. One is doctor Mitchell,

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Speaker 1: you know whose party she had just come from, and

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Speaker 1: then other guys named doctor Haskell. They both look at Ella,

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Speaker 1: who is now full on convulsing, and they can't seem

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Speaker 1: to get the convulsions under control, and they cannot figure

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Speaker 1: out the cause. How do you get convulsions under control

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Speaker 1: without Is it with a medicine?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think in this day and age, yeah, if

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Speaker 2: they have an antagonist to whatever the toxin is, then

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Speaker 2: possibly they would be able to provide that to the patient.

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Speaker 2: But back in the eighteen nineties, I'm not sure what

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Speaker 2: they would have given. I'm kind of curious because I'm

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that they probably had anti convulsants and I'm

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Speaker 2: just looking at this reference book that was written. It's

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Speaker 2: on toxicology and written back in eighteen ninety two, so

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Speaker 2: it is contemporaneous to this.

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Speaker 3: Case.

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Speaker 1: We haven't gotten this book, I think since the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: maybe the first Actually, I think, Paul, the last time

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Speaker 1: you looked at this book was the episode number one.

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Speaker 1: I think this was our first episode. That is true, right,

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Speaker 1: because it was William Rice. That's the last time you

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Speaker 1: looked at this book.

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Speaker 3: Well, look at that. One hundred episodes later and I'm

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Speaker 3: pulling the book out again.

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Speaker 1: You're still pulling your book from eighteen ninety two out.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So page one thirty nine convulsives. Let's see what

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Speaker 3: they say here.

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Speaker 2: In this textbook, which is called the Essentials of Forensic Medicine,

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Speaker 2: Toxicology and Hygiene, written in eighteen ninety two, it does

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Speaker 2: have a section in here about convulsives. And the first

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Speaker 2: convulsive is poisoning by nux vomica nucks vomica. Seeds and

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Speaker 2: the symptom are the same as those caused by strict nine.

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Speaker 2: Strict nine, which is an alkaloid. So you know, back

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Speaker 2: in eighteen ninety two they were very well aware of

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Speaker 2: some of these compounds that were causing convulsions, and obviously

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Speaker 2: these compounds can be fatal, you know. So treatment for

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Speaker 2: some of these convulsives is stomach pump the use of

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Speaker 2: charcoal chloroform should be administered to overcome the tristmas, which

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure what that is. Numerous remedies have been advocated, opium, morphine, nicotine, tannin, prosicacid.

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Speaker 2: It's like this hodgepodge of various compounds. I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: they're actually making the person better or not by adding

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Speaker 2: all of that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you. Tristmus is the restriction of

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Speaker 1: the range of motion of the jaw. Oh okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Initially described in the setting of tetanus, it currently refers

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Speaker 1: to restricted mouth opening due to any etiology eteology, Is

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Speaker 1: that right? Yeah, So all of that is to say

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Speaker 1: they have some wacky ways of stopping convulsions. Is that right.

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Speaker 3: It seems like, yeah, they have a variety of compounds

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Speaker 3: that they could administer, and seems like these compounds would

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Speaker 3: have been hit or miss, you know, in terms of

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Speaker 3: being effective.

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Speaker 1: Well, you hit on one already. So she eventually does

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Speaker 1: have her convulsions slowed down, but her breathing is very labored.

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Speaker 1: She's conscious, but she can only give some partial responses

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Speaker 1: to questions and doesn't seem to make a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of sense in general. A third doctor comes to Ella's

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Speaker 1: bedside at five in the morning, and his name is

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Speaker 1: doctor Ludwig, and he's been called by the other two

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Speaker 1: doctors who sound like they're panicking. When he gets there,

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Speaker 1: he sees that Ella's eyes are bloodshot, and the other

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Speaker 1: two doctors said they gave her chloroform. She's been given

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Speaker 1: chloroform as an anesthetic and this was a thing and

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Speaker 1: they stopped doing it because it caused liver failure and

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Speaker 1: some cardiac problems. No for sure, So she was given chloroform.

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Speaker 1: And you had just mentioned chloroform.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, chloroform. You know, we've used it in the

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Speaker 2: lab back in the day. You know, it's a solvent,

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Speaker 2: and it's a very toxic solvent. You know, of course,

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Speaker 2: everybody thinks of chloroform, you know from the movies where

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Speaker 2: you have a handkerchief that's been soaked in chloroform and

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Speaker 2: it's put over the person's mouth and they immediately pass out.

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Speaker 2: What really doesn't work like that, or at least not

386
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Speaker 2: that quickly. But it is something that I've used personally

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Speaker 2: in terms of within a lab environment, so I am

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Speaker 2: familiar with it.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes with these old stories, we get descriptions. I know

390
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Speaker 1: it's not as technical as you want, but we do

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Speaker 1: get the doctors giving us descriptions that I think can

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Speaker 1: lead you to an impression of what the symptoms are.

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Speaker 1: This might be one of them. Ella has three fits

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Speaker 1: of convulsions while this doctor Ludwick is there and he says,

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Speaker 1: her tongue looks really swollen. It looks to him like

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Speaker 1: she has had typhoid fever for about two weeks. But

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Speaker 1: Ella was healthy just hours ago. So does that tell

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Speaker 1: you anything, he said, Just swollen, swollen tongue.

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Speaker 3: No, not that I can think of off the top

400
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Speaker 3: of my head. But it's in resting.

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Speaker 1: She dies at seven in the morning. This is eleven

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Speaker 1: hours after leaving doctor Mitchell's house. She dies with her

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Speaker 1: back arched in a convulsion, which sounds awful.

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Speaker 2: I mean that sounds like tetanus STRYC nine, right, strict nine.

405
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Speaker 2: So you have this in terms of yeah, the muscles

406
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Speaker 2: end up just completely flexing, and that would be horrific,

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Speaker 2: you know, because it's almost like your whole body is

408
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Speaker 2: within one big cramp.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

410
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Speaker 2: Okay, so we have Ella has died. Sounds like she's

411
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Speaker 2: ingested a poison something along the lines of Stryck nine.

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Speaker 2: What's going on with Rosa?

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Speaker 1: Rosa is slowly recovering and does not feel well one

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Speaker 1: little bit. Going back to Ella, just briefly, doctor Haskell says,

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Speaker 1: you know, he thinks this is Strict nine. He says,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's odorless. It has a bitter taste though,

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Speaker 1: and it attacks of course the nervous system. And he

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Speaker 1: says he's seen the arching of the back is a

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Speaker 1: calm signed for Strict nine poisoning. So if you're thinking

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Speaker 1: about suspects, aren't you thinking, you know, doctor Mitchell, whose

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Speaker 1: house this party has been thrown in, would be a suspect.

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Speaker 1: A doctor would absolutely have access easy access to Strict nine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. But you know, now we start timelining

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Speaker 2: this out. You know, doctor Mitchell is not present at

425
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Speaker 2: the beginning of the party. He comes home after the

426
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Speaker 2: party has started. You know, part of the question that

427
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Speaker 2: I have is the onset of Strict nine symptoms. If

428
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Speaker 2: these symptoms take a few hours, could there have been

429
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Speaker 2: an exposure to Strict nine with Ella earlier in the day,

430
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Speaker 2: You know, a few hours prior to the party, or

431
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Speaker 2: do these symptoms manifest themselves very quickly? And is this

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Speaker 2: something that Ella and Rosa had been exposed to while

433
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 2: the party was going on? And did Ella just happen

434
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 2: to have the larger day, so to speak, and maybe

435
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: Rosa was more accidental with whatever the you know, the

436
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 2: source of this this toxin was.

437
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: Well, let's take one thing at a time. You know,

438
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: doctor Mitchell being in the house. He comes after dinner

439
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: has been served, but we don't know if they've gone

440
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: back for seconds. We don't know. You know, there are

441
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 1: not people paying attention necessarily to the place on the table.

442
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: He was there before the cake was served, and Lily

443
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: made the cake and another guests made the cake also,

444
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 1: so there's kind of a lot of possibilities. There's also

445
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: a little ten year old boy, you know, popping around,

446
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 1: maybe curious about, you know, the border's dinner party. And

447
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: you've got these two housekeepers. There's an awful lot of

448
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: people in this house. So while I'm not saying doctor

449
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: Mitchell is the one who did this, I am saying

450
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: there might have been opportunity to you know, give any

451
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: of these women some poison. I don't know why, But

452
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: the opportunity could have been there for sure.

453
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 2: Okay, And then of course it's like, well, how is

454
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 2: a poison being administered If it is through the food

455
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 2: that the entire group is eating, then with something like strychnine,

456
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 2: I think everybody would be exhibiting some level of symptoms,

457
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 2: depending on how much is ingested and of course their

458
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 2: own personal sensitivity and response. So if these other individuals

459
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 2: that are eating the same food stuff aren't exhibiting any symptoms,

460
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: then I start to wonder, Okay, maybe Ella and or

461
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 2: Rosa were specifically targeted and the administration was more direct

462
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 2: to them in some manner, whether their drink was laced,

463
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 2: whether some object that only they would have touched, or Ella,

464
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 2: if she's the primary target, would typically have interacted with.

465
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 2: So the offender would be trying to just specifically dose

466
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: Ella through some mechanism, and Rosa just happens to also

467
00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 2: interact or ingest, you know, whatever was initially thought to

468
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 2: be targeted towards Ella.

469
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 3: That's my thought right now.

470
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and right now, if we are investigators, we don't

471
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: know enough about the relationships between any of these people,

472
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 1: including doctor Mitchell whose wife had died, you know, a

473
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: year earlier. We don't know enough about the relationships just yet.

474
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: The corner has an inquest and they determine that they

475
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: need an autopsy, no kidding. So they take Ella's stomach

476
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: and remove it, and the DA and the corner together

477
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: personally deliver it to a lab in Chicago for an

478
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: analyst by a chemist at Rush Medical College. They could

479
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: do this in eighteen ninety one. There was some toxicology.

480
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: The chemist fine Stryck nine in her stomach, and he

481
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: says it is three eighths of a grain, and half

482
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: a grain is considered a fatal dose, so this is

483
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: slightly less. But this is all that he gets out

484
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: of her stomach. There could have been more in there,

485
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: so that is what ends up happening. So it's definitely

486
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: strick nine, right.

487
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 2: And since it's within stomach contents, and this was orally

488
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 2: and ingested, you know, so what did Ella ingest that

489
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 2: the others didn't except for maybe Rosa.

490
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 1: Well, let's keep going here. Ella is buried. A couple

491
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: days later, Rosa, who is the other victim, has totally

492
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: recovered and she attends the funeral. She collapses. She is

493
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 1: incredibly upset. She has to be home taken home by Sleigh.

494
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: I thought that was an interesting little comment. I mean,

495
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: it's winter in Wisconsin, so of course they have slaves.

496
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: And doctor Mitchell is there too, so we have a

497
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: in my opinion, a host of suspects here. But you're right,

498
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: it's like, how do everybody else except for these two

499
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 1: women get away with not being sick? And we have

500
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: to figure out what they individually have had that the

501
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: other people hadn't, So let's talk about the investigation. They,

502
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: of course, to do exactly what they're supposed to do.

503
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: They're talking to everybody in Ella's in her circle, including Lily.

504
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: They look at Lily, Lily was the one there with her.

505
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: They talked to everybody at the dinner party, they talked

506
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: to doctor Mitchell, and they talked to Rosa, and they

507
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: start asking things, you know, I mean, does she have

508
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: any enemies? And when they get to the question, did

509
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,959
Speaker 1: anything happen that was a little strange? There is some

510
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: anecdotal evidence of some strange things happening, and they start

511
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: focusing it on somebody who was very close to Ella,

512
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,959
Speaker 1: someone who they believe had a motive. Once they started

513
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: talking to people in town and the rumor mill starts churning,

514
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: and they start looking at another young woman, and they

515
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: start looking at Rosa.

516
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: Well, that's interesting. The two women that are at the

517
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: party that are exhibiting symptoms. Ella is the one targeted.

518
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: She receives the fatal dose a Strict nine. But I

519
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: could see where Rosa, if she's the one administering and

520
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: having to handle the Strict nine ahead of time, trying

521
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 2: to take care not to poison herself, somehow ends up

522
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: getting a smaller dose a Strict nine. I kind of

523
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: like that scenario.

524
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: Here's my question for you, Paul. They never collect the vomit.

525
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: That was the first thing I thought of. Well, le's

526
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: go get the moment that she supposedly had in a basin.

527
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it wouldn't have been something flushed, It would

528
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: have been probably, you know, something that was laying around,

529
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: I mean a basin, So I guess it had been

530
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: washed out. Maybe was there any that you wipe her

531
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: mouth on a towel? Can they test it? They had

532
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: done none of that. There is no way to prove

533
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: that Rosa had any kind of Strict nine in her system.

534
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 1: Could she have made herself throw up fairly easily walking

535
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 1: down the stairs with Ella or no.

536
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: Well, you know, sure Rosa is vomiting, but I don't

537
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 2: think that that necessarily means that she orally ingested. Even

538
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: if it was accidental, I would have to take a

539
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: look at is there the possibility of transdermal absorption of

540
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: strict nine if it's in a powder form, could she

541
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: accidentally inhale it if you get some of the powder

542
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: wafting up into the air. Of course, the scenario that

543
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: you brought up, like if she's washed, you know, after

544
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: she handles strychnine and she's washing her hands or handling

545
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: a towel and then wipes her mouth or something maybe

546
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: as a just enough you know, where we have this

547
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: oral absorption to cause the symptoms. But there it's a

548
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: non fatal dose. So yeah, I think you know, the vomit.

549
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: Of course, from a forensic standpoint, to try to determine

550
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: why Rosa was feeling symptoms would have been critical because

551
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: in essence that her stomach is self pumping itself, and

552
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: so the evidence is going to be in that was

553
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: it a basin or an urn that she threw up

554
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: in m and that's gone.

555
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, obviously she could have been making up her symptoms

556
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: and then made herself throw up. I guess sure, coming

557
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: down the stairs. So here is some I think would

558
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: be soft evidence, and then a little bit harder evidence.

559
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: So the weird circumstantial evidence is that we are now

560
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: finding out some things. Rosa had visited Ella at work.

561
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: She worked at a store as a cashier. She visited

562
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: her that day three times. Rosa invited Ella and her

563
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: sister to a party. Right the party that night. The

564
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: second time, she asks Ella if she likes raw oysters.

565
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: Ella says no, but that Rosa, you know, give them

566
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: to everybody else. It doesn't matter to me. I'll just

567
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: eat the oranges in the cake and that's it. Ella

568
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: said to a coworker, that was really weird. She thought

569
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: that was strange. And remember Rosa made oyster soup because presumably,

570
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: if she's guilty, she knew that Ella would not eat

571
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: raw oysters.

572
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm having a problem that if the strych

573
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: nine is being put into the stock supply of the

574
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: oyster soup, that everybody is going to be having a

575
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: problem with the strych nine exposures. So somehow, if Rosa

576
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 2: is the one that's responsible, she is able to target

577
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: Ella who orally ingests strych nine through some mechanism. Maybe

578
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 2: it was if Ella's the only one eating oranges, you know,

579
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: maybe it was an orange that was laced with Strych nine.

580
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: So that's where I kind of move away from the

581
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: oyster soup. Unless Rosa as the one dishing out the

582
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: soup and has an opportunity in Ella's ball to put.

583
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 3: The stryc nine.

584
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: I'm picturing this as a formal dinner party. Maybe she

585
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: even hands dishes of the soup from the kitchen to

586
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: the housekeepers and have them serve these women. That was

587
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: not mentioned anywhere, but I could absolutely see formally everybody

588
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: sitting down and Rosa going in and out of the kitchen,

589
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: serving two bowls at a time, and being able to

590
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: sprinkle strick nine specifically in Ella's soup. But I don't know,

591
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: You're right, So we still are trying to figure that

592
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: part out, and so we're investigators, so you know, police

593
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: keep trying to figure out what's going on, and they

594
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: ask Lily give us a better timeline because their belief

595
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: and kind of what I was looking up. You can

596
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: tell me what you think what I just read for

597
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: strick nine on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

598
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: says exposures to high levels of STRICK nine may result

599
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: in respiratory failure leading to death and brain death within

600
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: fifteen to three thirty minutes. Wow, and seizures can start

601
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: within fifteen minutes. This is not a fifteen minute dinner party, Paul.

602
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: I mean, this is something happened as people were leaving

603
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: and they were on their walk home. I mean this

604
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: had to have started on the walk home is when

605
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: the seizures started.

606
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: Right, man, So the exposure is happening, in all likelihood

607
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: within a half an hour of Ella leaving the house,

608
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: right yep.

609
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: So we've got Rosa coming down the stairs. She feels okay,

610
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: And this is I'm telling don't blame me. I'm telling you.

611
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: The investigators are getting this in real time. Here and

612
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: Rosa is saying goodbye to the sisters and they were

613
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: walking out the door and she stops them and says,

614
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: wait a second, I have kind of a party gift

615
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: for the two of you, and it is those chocolate creams.

616
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and she hands them echa bag and Ella

617
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: bites into one end says it's bitter, and Lily says

618
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. This tastes good to me. And

619
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: then within about twenty minutes it starts to happen, and

620
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: that's when investigators go, oh gosh, okay, let's take her

621
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: in immediately.

622
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: We've got a lover's triangle and a jealous woman.

623
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: Okay. Is that that's your prediction? That's what we think

624
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: he's happening.

625
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 3: That's my theory right now. If everything is as as

626
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 3: you've laid it out, and Rosa pre plans poisoning Ella.

627
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 3: Rosa lives with doctor Mitchell, but I think doctor Mitchell

628
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: may be having some sort of relationship with Ella, and

629
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: Rosa also has feelings for doctor Mitchell, and now she's

630
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 3: taken out her competition. That is my prediction on this

631
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: right now.

632
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: Ding ding ding for you, Paul. Luckily it's my next line.

633
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: Police say she's jealous, and I mean, this story gets

634
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: weirder as we go on here. But the newspaper reports

635
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: this that Rosa wanted to marry doctor Mitchell, she's known

636
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: him for three years, and that he had recently been

637
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: paying a lot of attention to Ella. There is zero

638
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: sign that either of these women slept with him, which

639
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: would have been surprising for me. If that had happened.

640
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: We don't know if Ella returned his affections. We don't

641
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 1: know what the affections actually were. It's a perception. Rosa

642
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: wanted to be with doctor Mitchell and she thought that

643
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: eliminating This is what the police are saying is she

644
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: thought that eliminating Ella would have been the way to

645
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: do it right.

646
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: And that's a very important point when you mentioned the

647
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: term perception. You know, we talk about motive and during

648
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: an investigation you can't find you know, just like you said,

649
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: there didn't appear to be any type of relationship between

650
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: doctor Mitchell and Ella, but it's all how the offender

651
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: is perceiving things. There may not have been anything going on,

652
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: but maybe the way doctor Mitchell, you know, looked at

653
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: Ella at a certain time, Rosa interprets that as you know,

654
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 2: some sort of romantic gesture, and so in her head

655
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: she is now jealous, you know. So it's always always

656
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 2: have to think about the things from the offender's perspective.

657
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's keep going with this. You know, I have

658
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: said this a million times. People kill for the same

659
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: reason hundreds of years ago as they do now. Jealousy

660
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: is what we're talking about here. But the police have said,

661
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: this is what we think happened. This is why we

662
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: think Ella was targeted. We think that Rosa faked all

663
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: of her own illness and she put you know, STRYC

664
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: nine and the Chocolate's rtchu are now long gone. But

665
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 1: the police are saying, we have another concern, which is

666
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: they find out from doctor Mitchell that Rosa was the

667
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: primary caregiver of his wife and he did not think

668
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: anything weird about his wife's death nine months earlier after

669
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: she gave birth to the baby. But now they think

670
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: something weird happened, and they're going to exhume Minie Mitchell's

671
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: body because they think Rosa is attached to it.

672
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: Okay, well, then that tells me that when many died

673
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: that possibly whatever post death medical oversight was inadequate, right,

674
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 2: Probably no autopsy, maybe just you know, a medical doctor

675
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: signing off on a death certificate saying, yep, you know

676
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: what sepsis, whatever the diagnosis was, But could there have

677
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: been the administration we see, you know, like caregivers who

678
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: have prolonged exposure to patients can chronically dose toxins at

679
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: low levels without causing you know, causing the dramatic symptoms,

680
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: and so like with Many, that's where I would expect

681
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 2: something like arsenic right, low dose of arsen over time.

682
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: But I am curious to see, you know, where this leads,

683
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: you know, with whatever they find during the exhumation, and

684
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: then if there's any any more information about the symptoms.

685
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 3: That Many was exhibiting that.

686
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: Led up to her death fever, you know, having problems breathing,

687
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: not feeling well for a couple of months, I mean,

688
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: just sort of suffering through. The doctors, including her husband,

689
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: said this is sort of textbook whatever you would call

690
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: that a bacterial infection after having problems after childbirth. So

691
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: those were the symptoms. What can we expect it for

692
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: nine months? She's been underground for nine months. There's a

693
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: chance she had been embalmed, because embalming really started in

694
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: the Civil War time period, but I don't have that information.

695
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 3: And she was an autopsy I'm assuming.

696
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: Now, not initially, but she has been.

697
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, so at least you know when she's going

698
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: into the ground, when she's buried, you know, her body

699
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: is intact, whereas a body that's been autopsy it has

700
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 2: obviously been opened up. The organs have been removed. There's

701
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: been a lot of disruption in this scenario. My expectation

702
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: that if you are dealing with the toxin that is

703
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: metallic based, you know, most certainly that would be present

704
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: in the tissues.

705
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 3: You know, strych nine, you know, these.

706
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: Alkaloids, you know, there's probably going to be a diminished

707
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 2: level just because it's an organic compound, and just through

708
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 2: decomposition that's occurring. Even with bodies that are embalmed, these

709
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 2: organic compounds will diminish over time.

710
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 3: But it's possible that they could persist.

711
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: But I think I'd be going after where the primary

712
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 2: concentrations would have been, you know, whether the stomach, contents, liver,

713
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: you know, if it's an oral ingestion of toxins, you know,

714
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 2: everything passes initially through the livers, or evidence of some

715
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: sort of toxin you know that has had an ill

716
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: effect on her liver and so on and so forth.

717
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: And this is where you know, I start getting way

718
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 2: out of my wheelhouse in terms of you know, various

719
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 2: toxins have target organs, target tissues, and so this is

720
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: where relying upon a toxicologist, you know, to determine, okay,

721
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: this is the type of samples I need from this

722
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: body to comprehensively determine whether or not there is something

723
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 2: like strychnine present.

724
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you what they find and kind

725
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: of an odd explo nation that you've already talked about.

726
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: Minnie Mitchell is exhumed and they look at her stomach

727
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: and they find the presence of Stryck nine. So that's,

728
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: I guess, the good news. Here's the confusing news, Paul.

729
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: You use this phrase already. Her husband testified that he

730
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 1: was medicating her when she was sick with that word.

731
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: You said that phrase, you said, nooks vomica oh, which

732
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: is a medicine derive from Stryck nine that they used

733
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: for a lot of things. Incidentally, it has also been

734
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: used to treat erictyle dysfunction more you know.

735
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 3: At the time or currently, No, currently, I.

736
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: Believe, Okay, I mean, don't do it, do this and

737
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: home kids. But he was treating her with it, and

738
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,959
Speaker 1: I don't have any information on how much. And of course,

739
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think once sir, Bodie's been in

740
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: the ground for that long, I'm not sure any measurement

741
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: would be accurate after nine months anyway, But it's there,

742
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: but he said, well, I gave her some of it.

743
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

744
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: Well, and I think you know, when you start talking

745
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: about quantifying the amount of toxin in the eighteen nineties,

746
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 2: you know, I know, with Ella, the Chicago toxicologists said

747
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 2: like three grains, right, or three eighths of a grain, right, Yeah,

748
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 2: that's probably a very.

749
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 3: Very rough estimate.

750
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 2: But with somebody like many, you know, now, I think

751
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: what they're doing is they're likely doing crystal tests where now,

752
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: with certain reagents, if you have a crystal that forms

753
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: in the presence of strychnine, it tells you yep, it's

754
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: positive for strict nine. But they can't tell you exactly, well,

755
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: how much strychnine is present in these stomach contents.

756
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 3: It's just that it's positive.

757
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: That would be my guess, And any estimation that the

758
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: toxicologist is doing is going to be very very rough

759
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 2: at best.

760
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: Well, thank goodness. I mean, I'm not defending Rosa because

761
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: I don't know about her guilt or innocence yet. But

762
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: they initially charged her with Mini's murder, but then they

763
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: drop the charges. I mean, I think even they in

764
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety one, now that's not enough evidence, especially if

765
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 1: you've got the doctor saying, well, I did give her

766
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: Stryck nine to treat her. Yeah, so you know, if

767
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: we moved back over to Ella for a minute, they

768
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: start saying, okay, well, where if this is Rosa and

769
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: not the doctor or someone else, where is she getting

770
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: Stryck nine from which you know, throw a rock and

771
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: you could hit Stryck nine in a product of course.

772
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: In the eighteen hundreds, they find it in the house.

773
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: It's in a cabinet that anybody, including the ten year

774
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: old kid, could reach, and it is in a bottle

775
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: with a regular cork. Anybody could open it up. It's

776
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: clearly marked, and they're using it as rat poison. I

777
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: talk about rough on rats. This is not rough on rats.

778
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: So rough on rats in the eighteen hundreds has come

779
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: up in so many of my stories. That was a

780
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: mixture of arsenic and coal. But Stryck nine is another

781
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: version of rough on rats. And so they had it there.

782
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: This is not hidden under her bed. You know it's

783
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: there and anybody could have grabbed it so far.

784
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: Sure, so it's you know, the if you want to

785
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: call it the murder weapon, is freely accessible. You know,

786
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 2: I think it is you know, it is stunning when

787
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: you when you start thinking about you know, here you

788
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: have this very lethal toxin that is just basically available

789
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: that anybody could access. However, somebody like Rosa would most

790
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 2: certainly be aware of how toxic it is, though probably

791
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: doesn't have any experience in terms of utilizing it, you know,

792
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 2: in order to kill somebody, you know. So this is

793
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 2: where now she's making If she's the one that's making

794
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: these chocolate creams.

795
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: Well she bought them and then she added it in theory,

796
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: but just to Ella's Paul, because she must have really

797
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: given them their own little goodie bag, because Lily ate

798
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: one and said, this is fine. What are you complaining about?

799
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the bitter taste is the giveaway. It just

800
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: seems obvious to me, you know, the bitter tasting chocolate

801
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: cream which should be chocolate and sweet. You know Ella's

802
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 2: immediately going, this doesn't taste right. So you know, I'm

803
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: completely on board. That's how Ella and tested the strict

804
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 2: nine and if Rosa is the one giving it to

805
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: her and her sister at the same time, that's definitely

806
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: looking targeted. There's pre planning.

807
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: If we talked this out, if you really think about this,

808
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: So I was thinking bitter, Why would she not put

809
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: it in the oysters? But I think Rosa needed her

810
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: out of the house and on her way home for

811
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: this to work, and so kind of just shoving some

812
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 1: chocolates at her and saying, hey, why don't you try

813
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: one of these was a good way. Or she even

814
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: better would have waited till she gotten home and tried

815
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: one at home. I mean, the further away that she

816
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: got from Rosa, the better it would have been for Rosa,

817
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: I thought. But then I was thinking, servant, was something spicy?

818
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: Why are you giving her the opportunity to complain about

819
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: how bitter this is and some really sweet chocolate.

820
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 3: Rosa may be completely oblivious to how the strict nine

821
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: would alter the taste, right, She just knows, Hey, this

822
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 3: rat poison is available. I'm going to give it to Ella, yep,

823
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 3: not knowing it's a very bitter tasting substance.

824
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: So this all happens in January. She goes on trial

825
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: in June. They have to get a change of venue

826
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: because so many people in this area know about this

827
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: case and they're convinced of Rosa's guilt, which I have

828
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: to say is a sort of surprising. I mean, I've

829
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 1: been dealing with female poisoners over eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds,

830
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: and even though I know it's poison is supposed to

831
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: be a lady's choice of weapon, I still have found

832
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: that sort of over a broad survey of the stories

833
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,400
Speaker 1: that I've done, that people are still disbelieving that women

834
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: would do this and this time period specifically. Of course,

835
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised women do anything now, but in this

836
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: time period, be quiet, Paul. But in this time period,

837
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: you know, people were shocked and they were not Boy,

838
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: they just thought she was guilty, and they said, we've

839
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: got to change the venue.

840
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

841
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: Well, you know, at least all the circumstances that you've

842
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: laid out to me and some of the objective evidence

843
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 2: elastomach contents with the Strych nine in there, you know,

844
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 2: this really does.

845
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 3: Seem to point at Rosa for sure.

846
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 2: Now I'm going to be shocked if you, you know,

847
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 2: send me on a whole one hundred and eighty degree

848
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: you know, tangent from that, like you have a tendency

849
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 2: to do.

850
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: But watch it, buddy.

851
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 3: I think I'm on board with everybody that's following the

852
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 3: trial back in the eighteen nineties. Is that.

853
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it appears that Rosa was jealous of Ella and

854
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 2: the attention doctor Mitchell was giving Ella and decided to

855
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: off her competitor.

856
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: So, just like the hordes of people who aren't even

857
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: letting this poor woman go on trial, yet you're jumping

858
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: on board with her guilt, I am too in a

859
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: way you're jumping on board, okay.

860
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 3: And women are very capable of committing homicide in a

861
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: wide variety of ways.

862
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,959
Speaker 1: Yep, thanks for that. The courtroom is packed to suffocation.

863
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,959
Speaker 1: This is a you know, not surprising at all true

864
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 1: crime lovers. In the eighteen hundreds, there are some some

865
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: interesting witness testimony that have to ask you about Anna,

866
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 1: who is the housekeeper in the Mitchell house. She testifies.

867
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: It sounds like Rosa wanted to testify, and her attorney's

868
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: very smartly shut that down. So Anna gets on the

869
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: stand and she says that after she heard that Ella

870
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: had died, but before Rosa was charged, which was just

871
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 1: maybe a two week period, Rosa had gone to Anna

872
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: and said, do you think that murderers can be redeemed?

873
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: And she also said that Anna was praying that day,

874
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: heard her praying that day, which I guess sounded really unusual.

875
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: Is this admissible in court? Really? I mean, does this

876
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: really have anything to do with the case.

877
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 3: Well admissibility?

878
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 2: You know, here you have Anna is hearing directly from Rosa,

879
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 2: you know, so this isn't Anna hearing it secondhand.

880
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 3: She's hearing it directly.

881
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 2: So I think I would argue, you know, that this

882
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: is admissible because Anna is a witness, primary witness to

883
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 2: that statement. I'm sure there could be arguments made, you know,

884
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: to try to prevent that statement from being admitted into

885
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 2: court in terms of relevance, you know, I could see

886
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 2: where the defense would object to relevance because it's not

887
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 2: Rosa making an explicit statement I murdered Ella. Am I redeemable?

888
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 2: It's more of this vague question, you know.

889
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 3: And I think.

890
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 2: That that's where you'd have the prosecutor and the defense

891
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: making arguments in front of a judge as to whether

892
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: or not the jury would hear that. But I think

893
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 2: at least because it's a primary statement from Rosa to Anna,

894
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 2: it's not secondhand, I think at least there is the

895
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: possibility that is admissible.

896
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: Well, the defense goes to trying to show who has

897
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: access to the poison. It looks like everybody does. And

898
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: even Freddy has seen his dad put poison on top

899
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,439
Speaker 1: of cheese to kill these rats. Yeah, and then you've

900
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: got the prosecutor on the other hand, really wanting to

901
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: nail down the motive. So here what witnesses say. Witnesses

902
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: say that Rosa said that many had said to her, essentially, Rosa,

903
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: if I die, then I think you should marry my husband.

904
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: Witnesses also testified that doctor Mitchell remarrying was a popular

905
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: topic of conversation around the women, among the women in

906
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: town because he was a handsome, somewhat wealthy guy. So

907
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:29,439
Speaker 1: she is already around town saying that many said that,

908
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: you know, when she dies, that I should be gifted

909
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: her husband essentially, which just sounds delusional.

910
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,800
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, are these witnesses saying that they actually saw

911
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 2: and heard many tell Rosa this, or they're hearing this

912
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 2: from Rosa.

913
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: This is Rosa.

914
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is this is Rosa. She's she's got

915
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 2: a fantasy life in her head. She's also laying the

916
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 2: groundwork for, you know, down the road, what her plans are.

917
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 2: You know, she's hoping that her and doctor Mitchell are

918
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: going to become a couple. And that all just further

919
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 2: under scores the motive of why Ella gets targeted by Rosa.

920
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 2: If Rosa is perceiving Ella as now gaining doctor Mitchell's

921
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 2: attention and affection, yeah.

922
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,439
Speaker 1: And it gets a little worse because we have other

923
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: people chiming in. There's another doctor who testifies who's a

924
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: friend of doctor Mitchell's. And this doctor says, now, I

925
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: don't know how long they're waiting after many dies to

926
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 1: say stuff like this, but this friend of his says,

927
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 1: I think you should consider Ella as another wife for you.

928
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: She's a nice woman. I think you'd be a good match.

929
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:39,439
Speaker 1: Rosa hears this. She goes to this doctor friend and says, hey,

930
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: I would would you recommend me instead of Ella. No

931
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: word on what his response was to that. I'm sure

932
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: it was bug off. But this is about six months

933
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 1: before Ella was poisoned, so she's seeing now doctor Mitchell

934
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: paying more attention to Ella again. I have not heard

935
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: one thing that says that Ella was at all interested

936
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: in this man.

937
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: Nothing sure, but Rosa is again her. She has this fantasy,

938
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 2: and if something is interrupting that fantasy from her perception,

939
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,280
Speaker 2: that's what gives her the motive to go after Ella.

940
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I did this story for Tenfold. I

941
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 1: think it was season four of Tenfold. More Wicked about

942
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: Clara Phillips, who was a woman in LA in the

943
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties and her husband was I believe, a philanderer.

944
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: I mean he was sleeping with people, and she was

945
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: fixated on one woman named Alberta Meadows, and she was

946
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: convinced that they were sleeping together, and it turns out

947
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: they really weren't. Clara was so focused on this woman

948
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: that she draws her into rural part of LA and

949
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: beats her to death with a hammer, and she's covered

950
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: in blood. And she comes home and she says to

951
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 1: her husband as she takes off these bloody driving gloves,

952
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: I have taken care of our problem, and now I'm

953
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: going to cook you the best dinner of your life.

954
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: I mean, eliminating the problem.

955
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 3: That is cold blooded too, right.

956
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, Rosa is denying all of this. She doesn't

957
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: take the stand. She you know, seems like this mysterious woman.

958
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,399
Speaker 1: She is found guilty, thankfully, and sentenced to prison in

959
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety one. Okay, so a good thing happens. However,

960
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: there are people in the Richland Center community who are saying,

961
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: this woman got a raw deal. There's no real evidence,

962
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: it's anecdotal. Nobody saw her do it, and we think

963
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: it's the rumor mill that we think it's because she

964
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 1: really liked doctor Mitchell and people thought that was maybe inappropriate,

965
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: or she wasn't good enough for doctor Mitchell because she

966
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: was a border and other people could have done it,

967
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: including doctor Mitchell. So they start circulating a petition. The

968
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: case is appealed to the Supreme Court of Wisconsin. The

969
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: judge declines to overturn the conviction, but she's in prison

970
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: for six years and she is granted a pardon by

971
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: the governor of Wasisconsin on the last day of his

972
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 1: term and she's released.

973
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 3: Well, okay, why is he granting her a pardon. Did

974
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 3: she have attorneys that were pursuing that with him.

975
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: I believe so friends of hers, and I think he

976
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: just thought there was not enough evidence, and of course

977
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 1: she's a woman. He grants her a pardon. She moves

978
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: to Oklahoma to be with her family, who had relocated again.

979
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: And the speculation she really liked Wisconsin, but the speculation

980
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: is she wanted to get out of Dodge, because they

981
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: could have always anytime charged her with the murder of

982
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: Minnie Mitchell, which I'm sure George Mitchell would have enjoyed,

983
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: you know, having that taken care of. Also, so she

984
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: is gone. We don't know anything else. We don't know

985
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: if she poisoned other people, We don't know what kind

986
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 1: of life she led after this, but we know that

987
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: somebody who most certainly murdered a young woman in an

988
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: incredibly painful way, incredibly painful only served six years less

989
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 1: than six years.

990
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I'm just kind of going over

991
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:01,919
Speaker 2: the case in my head.

992
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 3: You know.

993
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: I think it is a circumstantial case for sure, and

994
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 2: I can see where under appeal Rosa's attorneys could be

995
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: making some very valid statements about the inadequacy of the

996
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: people's case.

997
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 3: You know.

998
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 2: So in some ways, from a legal standpoint, I'm not

999
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 2: having too much problem with the idea that maybe maybe

1000
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 2: the conviction wasn't as strong as what it should have been. However,

1001
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 2: I think I am convinced that Rosa is Ella's.

1002
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 3: Killer, you know.

1003
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: So that's just part of those you know, It's like

1004
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 2: from the investigator side, yeah, Rose is the killer, but

1005
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 2: legally is it a strong case, at least during our discussions.

1006
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 3: I don't think it's as strong of a case as

1007
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 3: what it could have been.

1008
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: I agree. And let's hope she never offered anyone else

1009
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: any chocolates after this, because how awful, I think for

1010
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: doctor Mitchell then to go on and he's got two

1011
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: kids with no mom for a woman he showed no

1012
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: interest in, and a young woman and her sister and

1013
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 1: just really over one person's just sort of delusions. I

1014
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: found this to be a sad case, but really compelling.

1015
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I love a good dinner party. Somebody it's

1016
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: gettings up murdered? Who did it? Kind of case. I

1017
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: wish that there was a little bit more at the

1018
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: end of this of justice for Ella Molly for sure.

1019
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

1020
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 2: But also when you start talking about, you know, this

1021
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 2: type of case back in the eighteen nineties, you know,

1022
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 2: it's really really tough to have that solid, objective physical

1023
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 2: evidence because they just didn't have the technology back then.

1024
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1025
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: I'm just glad they had toxicology, or the at least

1026
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:44,399
Speaker 1: this level of toxicology.

1027
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1028
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's something that as I you know, have

1029
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 2: looked at in particular this this textbook I have from

1030
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 2: the eighteen nineties. I'm quite frankly blown away about how

1031
00:54:55,239 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 2: sophisticated they were, you know, well before you know, the

1032
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 2: modern technology that we have today with the instrumentation and

1033
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: the computers and our ability to really detect all sorts

1034
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 2: of drugs and toxins. So it always impresses me, you know,

1035
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 2: when we talk about some of these old cases with

1036
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 2: those people that have developed expertise, you know, whether it

1037
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 2: be you know, a crime scene investigator from way back when,

1038
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 2: or an investigator or a pathologist, and seeing how the

1039
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 2: ones that really were good, they were good, they just

1040
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 2: didn't have the tools that we have today.

1041
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I always like it when we talk

1042
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 1: about something like, you know, from American Edward Oscar Heinrich firing,

1043
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 1: you know, a bullet into paraffin wax, and you saying

1044
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 1: why I did that in the seventies or whenever it was.

1045
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 3: You're saying, I'm doing that in the seventies. I think

1046
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 3: you just put about thirty years on my age.

1047
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: Sorry about that. You said you've done that, that kind

1048
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: of technique you had learned a long time ago, that

1049
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: kind of technique before. And I think that's you know,

1050
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's great that sometimes thinks it's

1051
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 1: just a good old fashioned police work and forensic work

1052
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: that can catch some of these people. So we're off

1053
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 1: next week, but the following week I'll have another mystery

1054
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 1: for you to help me solve.

1055
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 3: All right, I'm looking forward to it.

1056
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1057
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot

1058
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1059
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

1060
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1061
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1062
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1063
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1064
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1065
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1066
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

1067
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Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1068
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Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1069
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Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and.

1070
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1071
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