1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 2: Welcome to this very special episode of Noble Blood. I 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 2: am so thrilled to be joined by Matt Kaplan, the 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: science correspondent at The Economist. He's written about everything from 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: paleontology and parasites to virology. He's a paleoclimatologist by training. 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: I've just heard of written for the National Geographic New Scientists, Nature, 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 2: New York Times, but more relevant to this audience, his 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 2: new book I Told You So Scientists to are ridiculed, exiled, 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 2: and imprisoned for being right, is out February twenty fourth. 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 3: It has been such a roller coaster working on the 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 3: book too. I mean, I set out to look at 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 3: scientists who had been screwed by the system, scientists who 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 3: had had great ideas and then their ideas didn't make it, 15 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 3: even though they were right. And what I stumbled upon 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 3: as I uncovered the history of science and looked at 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 3: the underbelly a lot of these relationships, it was unbelievable 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 3: to me how often monarchs, in particular in Europe got 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 3: involved in all of this stuff. I mean, and top 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 3: like the cream of the crop was Empress Maria Teresa 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 3: of Austria. I mean, she's just such an incredible personality. 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: Well that's really who I'm very excited to talk to 23 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: you about, because the very first chapter in your book 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 2: you start this story with Maria Teresa, who, as listeners 25 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: of the show might know, was the eighteenth century leader 26 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: of the only sole female monarch of the Habsburg Monarchy 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 2: in Austria. An incredibly interesting and powerful woman, the mother 28 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: of Marie Antoinette, who's sort of a Marquis figure. 29 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, she was also the mother of sixteen children. Sixteen kids, 30 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 4: I mean, like I understand biologically how that worked, but wow, really. 31 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I managed one and I'm I consider that a 32 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 2: real pet on the back doing sixteen it feels, and 33 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: also running an empire. 34 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean the thing is in she wasn't 35 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 3: I mean, okay, aside from being a baby machine, which 36 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 3: clearly she was, because I mean she was really popping 37 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 3: them out, but there was also the fact that she, 38 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 3: I mean she it wasn't just Austria. She was ruling right, 39 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 3: She had territory all the way deep into Italy. She 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: controlled Milan, she had sort of an arrangement where she 41 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 3: had partial control of Florence, but she was also up 42 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 3: in Croatia and into Transylvania and big chunks of Romania. 43 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 3: I mean, she had so much control. And her sister 44 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 3: was the governor of Netherlands. And really, Maria Teresa is 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 3: such an interesting character because she wasn't just a ruler 46 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 3: because of all her kids, she had an incredible soft 47 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 3: spot for the overwhelmingly impoverished women of her empire. There 48 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 3: were swarms and swarms of women in her empire who 49 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 3: got pregnant because I mean, there was no birth control 50 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 3: back then, and women had no rights, and so there 51 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 3: was rampant rape and incest and all kinds of other 52 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 3: horrible stuff, as well as relationships where they just had 53 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 3: sex and didn't know what was going to happen next, 54 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 3: or I guess they do and didn't know what was 55 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 3: going to happen next and just let it go. But 56 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: women were having babies all the time and could not 57 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 3: feed them, and so their only option was to go 58 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: to a bridge in the dark of night and throw 59 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 3: the baby over the bridge into the river when no 60 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 3: one was looking. And yeah, I mean, and I mean, 61 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 3: I'm taken aback by that, and I mean I worked 62 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: in the emergency services in university as an emergency medic, 63 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 3: and that kind of stuff chills my blood. And it 64 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: turns out it chilled noble blood too, because Maria Terre 65 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 3: so really cared. She really wanted that to come to 66 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 3: an end. And one of her first moves as empress 67 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,839 Speaker 3: was the installation of drop boxes. Now, drop boxes, you're 68 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 3: familiar with them at libraries, right. You have them in 69 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: the United States still, I hope we have them. When 70 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 3: I was growing up in California. We have them in 71 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 3: the UK. I'm sure you still have them. You know. 72 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 3: Oh man, you forgot to drop off the book. You're 73 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: going to drop it off in the box and the 74 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 3: library will deal with it when they have opening hours. 75 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 3: They installed these at all the hospitals in Austria so 76 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 3: that women who were going to throw their baby in 77 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 3: the river could put their baby in the box, turn 78 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 3: the box around and hope that the state could give 79 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: their child better care. They could, yeah, I mean, the 80 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: state did not have a lot, so this was really 81 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 3: not a great option, but they were. She was trying. 82 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: She also had a vision, as you mentioned in your book, 83 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 2: for a hospital that would be able to take care 84 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: of people and these underprivileged women, these women who are 85 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: forced into situations where they have to give birth but 86 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 2: don't have the resources to actually do so safely. This hospital, 87 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: Maria Teresa would die in seventeen eighty, but her vision 88 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: would actually be fulfilled. 89 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a huge deal too. So Maria Teresa 90 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 3: met up with Gerard van Sweeten. Gerard von Sweeten was 91 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 3: the physician who looked after her sister, who was the 92 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 3: governor of Netherlands. She had a stillborn child. Stillborn children 93 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 3: often initiated bacterial infections in the mother, and Gerard van 94 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: Sweeten was unable to save Maria Theresa's sister, the governor 95 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 3: of Netherlyns. But Maria Trasa was so taken aback by 96 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 3: his professionalism that she brought him into her empire and 97 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 3: started up a friendship with him. Now, Van Sweeten, I 98 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 3: mean you have to we have to backtrack here for 99 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 3: a second, because Van Sweeten's a really interesting character in 100 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 3: his own right. So going way back in time for 101 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 3: a moment, we have Hippocrates during the age of the Greeks, 102 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 3: who believed in the humors. Now, Hippocrates, he did say, 103 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 3: you know, as a physician, you should help or at 104 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 3: least do no harm. But he also believed that you 105 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 3: had blood, bile, phlem and all of this stuff in 106 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 3: perfect balance, and that when you became ill it was 107 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 3: because one of the humors was out of balance. So 108 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 3: if you had too much fever, the solution was, well, 109 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 3: if you've got too much blood in you, drain them 110 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 3: of blood. If you have too much flem in you, 111 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 3: you know, not such a bad thing. Put them in 112 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 3: a hot room, have them cough up the flem. There's 113 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 3: actual benefits to that. Right, you get a chest infection, 114 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 3: go on the steam room or the sauna. So I mean, like, 115 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: he wasn't totally wrong, but his ideas weren't real great 116 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 3: either for medicine. 117 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: And if really existed in the first place, I think, 118 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: as you've met here in your book Hippocrates is he 119 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: might have existed. But we're kind of going on Plato's 120 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: word on that. 121 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't really know a whole lot about hypocrities, 122 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 3: but what we do know for sure is that a 123 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 3: British physician named Toddnes Thomas sydonym who was really active 124 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 3: like sixteen fifties, he rediscovered Hippocrates' ideas, whether it poverty 125 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: sugisted or not, and he adopted them, and there was 126 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 3: this huge renaissance in medicine, which was not really a 127 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 3: renaissance because people started bleeding patients again, which wasn't good. 128 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 3: And Sydenham taught his ideas widely and one of the 129 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 3: people who really picked them up was Gerard van Sweeten. 130 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 3: And Gerard van Sweeten ended up really convincing Maria Theresa 131 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: that her hospital needed to have these ideas in her hospital. 132 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 3: And one of the possibly most disastrous things he did 133 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: was he ended up hiring a guy named Anton de Haan, 134 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: and I mean de Haan was a real piece of work. 135 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 3: De Hayan believed the devil and believed that like vampires, 136 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 3: caused certain diseases, and any doctor who said, I think 137 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 3: they're ill for some reason other than God being angry 138 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 3: at them den Hayen would not have it. No, No, 139 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: they're ill because God has made them ill. End of story. Yeah, yeah, right. 140 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 3: So in the midst of all of this, you've got 141 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 3: this hospital being built, and this hospital would eventually house 142 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 3: a man named Igna's Semilwiss. Igna Semilwiss was an obstetrician 143 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 3: who was really deeply bothered by a disease that killed 144 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: one in ten women who gave birth in the hospital. 145 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 3: It was called preparel fever and if you got it, 146 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 3: you died. That was the end of story. It was 147 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: only second to tuberculosis and killing people off. The reason 148 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 3: no one really cared about it was because it only 149 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 3: killed women. Often who cared about women back in that day, 150 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: I mean, really, can you believe this? And so but 151 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 3: Igna Simoli saw all these women dying. There was nothing 152 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,439 Speaker 3: he could do, and he started running experiments to kind 153 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 3: of explore, like why do they get this? How does 154 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: this happen? But he was operating in a hospital that 155 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 3: had been established by Deheen, who believed that you only 156 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 3: got ill if God made it so well. 157 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 2: One point that you make in your book that I 158 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: find very interesting is someone like to Hay and believes, well, 159 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: your illness has to do with the weather and the 160 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: temperature and the position of the stars and the position 161 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 2: of the moon, and sort of if you're thinking scientifically, 162 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 2: it wouldn't really make sense that one woman in a 163 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: ward when the weather's a certain way gets sick and 164 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: the other right next to her with the weather the 165 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 2: exact same way, and the moon in the same position 166 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: wouldn't get sick. 167 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean, that's the thing I mean with 168 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 3: that said, when preparel fever happened, it tended to happen 169 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 3: in waves, So the women in the ward, many women 170 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 3: in the world, would all die at the same time 171 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 3: for preparel fever. So that's where they got this idea 172 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 3: that it was the sun, the moon and the stars. 173 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 3: But here's the catch, and this is what really got 174 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 3: semeel Weis's thinking. And it didn't work in the hospital 175 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 3: because the hospital was founded by people like to hang 176 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 3: In and von Sweeten. But Simielweiss said, wait a minute, 177 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 3: there's this word that is mostly managed by doctors, and 178 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: there's this word mostly managed by women, not women, by 179 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 3: nurses who were women. And fascinating, the word that gets 180 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: all of the preparel fever cases, or most of them, 181 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 3: is the word with the doctors the people tended to buy. 182 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 3: The nurses don't get it. So like the weather's the same, 183 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 3: around the buildings the same, what the hell's going on. 184 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 3: One of the things I write about in the books 185 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 3: is he noticed that the priest who was working at 186 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 3: the hospital would come and ring his bell and smoke 187 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 3: the incense in the room where the doctors were present 188 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 3: far more often, because we're more people dying, and he 189 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 3: thought it's the priest, the priest is causing this, so 190 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: he banned the priest from and of course that had 191 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 3: no effect, but hey, you know, good on him for 192 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 3: checking that out. And in the meantime, everyone's rolling their 193 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 3: eyes like what is this guy doing? Why is he 194 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 3: trying this stuff? But ultimately he really had huge breakthroughs 195 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 3: and demonstrated that it was doctors going to the Morgan 196 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 3: the morning and examining their patients from the previous day. 197 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 3: They were washing their hands with soap and water, but 198 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 3: because corpse material was getting under their fingernails, and because 199 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 3: soap and water is just not up to the task 200 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 3: of getting rid of like corpse bacteria, which is rancid, 201 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: they were then going and when women were giving labor, 202 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 3: going into labor, they would palpate to feel if they 203 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 3: could feel the baby's head, to find out if the 204 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 3: umbilical cord was around the neck, or whether or not 205 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 3: the baby was going to be a breach. These were 206 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 3: important things to know, and they were introducing corpse material 207 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 3: into the babies into the women, and the women were 208 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 3: getting this infection and dying. I mean, it was a 209 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 3: giant discovery and similwise created this antiseptic solution that neutralized it. Unfortunately, 210 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 3: the hospital was just not ready to accept what he discovered, 211 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 3: and his peers ended up throwing him into an insane 212 00:11:58,480 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: asylum for all of his. 213 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: Hard work, because imagine, I mean, for these doctors, I'm 214 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: sure it seems like a personal insult, saying, like, your 215 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 2: hands aren't clean enough to be treating these women. 216 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean. In fact, actually his ideas got out 217 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 3: to some sections of Germany, the city of Kiel. There 218 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 3: was a doctor surname Michalis. I can't remember his first name, 219 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 3: but Michalis initially accepted some Owiss's ideas and said, we've 220 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 3: had tremendous success with this chlorine wash. And then it 221 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 3: dawned on mccali's, oh, the thousands of women who have 222 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 3: died in this hospital are because of me, And so 223 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 3: he threw himself onto the railroad tracks and committed suicide 224 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 3: outside of the city because he couldn't take the belief, 225 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 3: the understanding. He understood what he had done in his life, 226 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 3: and obviously that's not good. But actually the vitriol that 227 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 3: some alwise received. You look at what these people were 228 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 3: to them and what they were saying to him. Share 229 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 3: part of it was believe they believed that God drove disease, 230 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 3: and that was the sun, the moon and stars. But 231 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: I think deep in their heart of hearts, many of 232 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 3: these doctors who engaged in character assassination, it was really 233 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 3: all about the knowing deep in inside that they actually 234 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 3: were responsible and couldn't copeut that. 235 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,839 Speaker 2: Out of curiosity? What was in the antiseptic hand wash 236 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: that Timlies came up with? 237 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. So at the time people 238 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 3: were having you know, cities were getting bigger and bigger, 239 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 3: the sewers were getting stinkier and stinkier, and the folks 240 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 3: of Europe worked out, hey, if we take this chloride 241 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 3: of lime, which basically chlorine, which would throw in swimming pools, 242 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 3: and we throw it in vast quantities into the sewer, 243 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 3: it makes the sewer a lot less stinky and Similwise, 244 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 3: when he was running his experiments to try to assess, 245 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 3: like what the heck is responsible for preparel fever, he 246 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 3: noticed that even after with washing with soap, and water. 247 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 3: He could still smell morg odor on his hands, and 248 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 3: he thought he had no understanding of microbes. Bacteria would 249 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 3: not be identified for another forty years by Louis Pastor, 250 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 3: who's another really interesting character who rubbed elbows with royalty 251 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 3: and engaged in all kinds of interesting behavior. But he 252 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: worked out, it's got to be the scent. The smell 253 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 3: is the reason for the infection, so I want to 254 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 3: eradicate the odor. So he got one of his friends 255 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: who worked at the local sewage facility to give him 256 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 3: a whole bunch of chlorine, and he created a mild 257 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 3: chlorine solution and went, you know what, I dipped my 258 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 3: hands in this and the smell goes away. I wonder 259 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 3: if this will work. And it was incredible the effect 260 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 3: of using the chlorine solution. Within three months, he had 261 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 3: an eighteen percent death rate from preparel fever in the 262 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 3: doctor's ward before running the experiment. At the end of 263 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: three months, it dropped to zero. 264 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: I mean, wow, unbelievable. 265 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean it was. It was a coup. 266 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 3: And the fact that the other doctors went, sir, how 267 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 3: dare you tell us our hands are dirty? We are gentlemen. 268 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 3: And in many cases they were noblemen. He was, I mean, 269 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 3: and this is where the noble blood side of this 270 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 3: really comes into it, because Simone Weis was Hungarian. Hungary 271 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 3: was a vassal state of Austria, so he was even 272 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 3: though he was a very successful obstetrician, he was a 273 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: second class citizen in Vienna. And these these nobles who 274 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 3: had become doctors in the Vienna Hospital, they had all 275 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: this cloud over him just because of their blood. And 276 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 3: there was, of course, on top of all of this, 277 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 3: Hungary rose up against Austria after Empress Maria died. Her 278 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 3: son was. 279 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 2: His name, Joseph, Yeah, just the second. 280 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 3: D He was not the sharpest tool in the box. 281 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: He let his favorite activities involved rolling around in the 282 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: waste paper bin and trying to swat flies with his hands. 283 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 284 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, in breeding it didn't do him all he could, uh, 285 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: And I mean he, I mean, he had very serious 286 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 3: mental deficits and he should not have been ruler of 287 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 3: the Habsburg Empire. 288 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: I mean, really, you're sort of coming down to the 289 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: thesis of this podcast, really is when you just decide 290 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 2: who's in charge of these wildly powerful empires based on 291 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: who's born first, it doesn't always work out. 292 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 5: No, no, definitely not. And so when the people of 293 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 5: Hungary rose up and said, we don't like being vassals 294 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 5: to the to the the Habsburg Empire. We would like 295 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 5: to determine our own destiny, he went okay. And of 296 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 5: course all of the nobles who were of of Austrian 297 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 5: blood ruling Hungary went. 298 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 3: Hang on, can we have a say in this somewhere 299 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: along the way, and semol Weiss actually made a huge 300 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 3: mistake because Hungary rose up against Austria and there was 301 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 3: a fierce war between them, and in the midst of it, 302 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 3: I mean he's he's working as a Hungarian in the 303 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,959 Speaker 3: Vienna hospital. He started donning the uniform of the Hungarian 304 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 3: soldiers while working in the operating theater. I mean like. 305 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: Him. 306 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was I understood that he cared. But he 307 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 3: was reporting to a guy named Johann Klein, who was 308 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 3: not a good doctor. He wasn't a bad doctor, but 309 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: he wasn't a very good one. And he was he 310 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 3: was a shining example of what privilege and power will 311 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 3: get you if if you're raised in you know, upper 312 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 3: class Vienna society. And he, to his credit, when Simvilwiss 313 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 3: brought out the chlorine wash. He did try it. I mean, 314 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 3: he did give it a shot. He did not like Semoelwise, 315 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 3: they did not get along well. And ultimately the uniform 316 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 3: thing and supporting the Hungarian rebels really created a clash. 317 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: And this is I think a huge part of why 318 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 3: Simbelwiss lost the battle with the aristocracy and the doctors 319 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 3: in the Vienna hospital. It was a mess. 320 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 2: It's not always the message. It sometimes is the messenger. 321 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, And I compare him in the 322 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 3: book to Joseph Lister and Louis Pasteur, because Joseph Lister 323 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 3: also got just trashed by the aristocracy in London as 324 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 3: he was coming up with his theories demonstrating that when 325 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 3: you're conducting surgery you need to use antiseptic on your knives, right, 326 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 3: I mean, before Joseph Lister came along, you, if you 327 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 3: were a surgeon, the more entrusted your blade was with 328 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 3: gore and guts, the better surgeon you works. That showed 329 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 3: how many bodies you had cut open. Oh god, yeah, yeah, 330 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: I mean it was bad. And people wouldn't die during 331 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 3: the surgery. They died of postoperative infection. All the time, 332 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 3: and Lister was the one who said, you know, I 333 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 3: think we've got a problem here. And similar to Semolwis, 334 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 3: they were throwing carbolic at carbonic acid in the sewers 335 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 3: in Britain, and he got some of that stuff and 336 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: started using the acid on patients to treat them after 337 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 3: cutting them open, and he received tons of pushback and 338 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 3: aggressive attacks. He didn't get thrown in an insane asylum 339 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 3: like Cemolweiss, but he was forced into academic retreat for decades, 340 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 3: and during that time he just quietly taught what he knew, 341 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 3: and eventually his students got everywhere. They were known as Listyrians, 342 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 3: and they spread the word and demonstrated through deed that 343 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 3: Joseph Lister was right, And thank goodness for that because 344 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 3: it was an alternative approach that Semielwiss never managed and 345 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 3: fortunately ultimately did lead to understanding of how to engage 346 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: in surgery and treat people proper. Ironically, ironically, I don't 347 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 3: know about. It's just astoundingly the day that Lister had 348 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 3: his big breakthrough by treating a patient on the surgery 349 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 3: table and not having them die of a post operative 350 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 3: infection that would have been certain. It was a kid 351 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 3: who had got run over by a wagon in Scotland. 352 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 3: The bones were sticking out of the wound. It was 353 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 3: really bad. He would have died. Was the same day 354 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 3: that Igno Similwis died in the insane asylum in Home. 355 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 2: Oh my god, so Ignow Simiolvis, who had this really 356 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 2: amazing breakthrough, which is that doctors should be washing their 357 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 2: hands with the strong stuff before treating women giving birth, 358 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: had this tragic end of dying an insane asylum, which 359 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: I think just sums up some of the interesting stories 360 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 2: and sort of fascinating ideas that you present in your book, 361 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: which are a number of these stories, which is sometimes 362 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 2: people science purports to be this field that is completely rational, right, 363 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: where it's like evidence based and if people show up 364 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: with the right information, the right idea will win out. 365 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 2: But that is absolutely not always the case, as you 366 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 2: make very clear. 367 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I just look at Galileo. I mean, 368 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 3: Galileo had his ideas about the Earth not you know, 369 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 3: about the Sun not rotating around the Earth, and had 370 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 3: all these observations of comments to demonstrate as such. But 371 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 3: the people in power, i mean the pope said well, 372 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 3: you know, if you speak that you're that's heresy, and 373 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: we'll send you Before the Inquisition, Galileo had to engage 374 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 3: in such careful pr I mean, he used pseudonyms to 375 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 3: hide his identity and to protect himself from being eviscerated 376 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 3: by the Inquisition. And it was all political I mean, 377 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 3: going back to Tuscany and the city of Florence, which 378 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 3: you know would be ruled many years later by Maria 379 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 3: Teresa through her relationships with the Grand Duke there. I mean, 380 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 3: when Galileo was being challenged by the Inquisition, it was 381 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 3: his relationship with Archduke Ferdinando, the leader of Florence and Tuscany. 382 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 3: It was his relationship with that man that protected Galileo 383 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 3: from ultimately being killed off or imprisoned in cells and Ferdinando. 384 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 3: It wasn't revealed at the time, but hundreds of years 385 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 3: later letters emerged revealing that Ferdinando had directed his ambassador 386 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 3: to Rome to intervene on Galileo's back behalf, which reveals 387 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 3: that all of this mythology of Galo being tortured at 388 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 3: the hands of the Inquisition was actually a lie. It's 389 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 3: incredible what Galileo had to go to to be able 390 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 3: to endure the political society of the. 391 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 2: Age, absolutely, although sometimes things do ebb and flow and 392 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 2: come around. I know that now, without getting too political, 393 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: there are challenges to things that I had considered done science, 394 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: But I do want to sell That's right Maria Theresa 395 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 2: for openly celebrating and realizing that smallpox inoculation really does 396 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: help people, and she publicly inoculated her own children in 397 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 2: seventeen sixty eight. 398 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she herself was inoculated. I mean, and she 399 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 3: was right up there with like Louis the sixteenth and 400 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 3: Catherine the second of Russia and Frederick the Second of Prussia. 401 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 3: I mean, but you want to talk about I suppose 402 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 3: it's not so much noble blood as it is just 403 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 3: American politics. But George Washington, So during the American War 404 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 3: of Independence, George Washington was losing more men to smallpox 405 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 3: than he was to the source of the British. And 406 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 3: I have to say this under hushed tones living in Hertfordshire, 407 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 3: the UK, you know, because I'm surrounded by British people 408 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 3: around here. But he wrote to the Continental Congress saying, 409 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 3: would you please remove your stupid rule that says I 410 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:01,239 Speaker 3: can't inoculate the troops because Congress had said you are 411 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 3: not allowed to inoculate people because people can die from 412 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 3: being inoculated. Well, and you don't want. 413 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: To be fair. You don't want if you give everyone 414 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 2: an inoculation at the same time, you don't want everyone 415 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 2: knocked out by the side effects or the dangers of 416 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: that immediately, of course not. 417 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 3: But when you look at it, you get if you 418 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 3: get a smallpox the normal way, you have a thirty 419 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 3: percent chance of death. I mean when you pair that 420 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 3: against COVID nineteen, where we had things pretty badly, I mean, 421 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 3: it's like nothing in comparison. Small box was so bad. 422 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 3: But if you got inoculated, your chance of dying was 423 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 3: two percent, and then you were immune for life. So 424 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 3: George Washington argued with Congress and said, look, you got 425 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 3: to let me inoculate people, And when they kept saying no, 426 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 3: he eventually disobeyed orders and inoculated his troops anyway. And 427 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 3: I mean it really turned the tide of battle. I mean, 428 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 3: it's it is incredible because that chapter of American history 429 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 3: is so often forgotten, But it was really inoculation against 430 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 3: small that led the Americans to ultimately defeat the British 431 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 3: and take their own country. 432 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 2: I mean that just goes to show. And George Washington 433 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: was able to sort of change course by what had 434 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 2: been the previously held idea of what to do with 435 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: your army, and in seventeen seventy seven was able to 436 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: inoculate his entire army to turn the tide of war. 437 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 2: There's really nothing more American than that. 438 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. And also he was such it took 439 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 3: such character and courage to stand up to the Continental 440 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 3: Congress and say, you know what, you're wrong. I mean, 441 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 3: that's that. I mean it was a new country. I 442 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 3: mean it wasn't even a country yet, it was a 443 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 3: new rebel state that was trying to do the right thing. 444 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 3: And to be able to stand up to all these 445 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 3: people who put their faith in him and say, nope, 446 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 3: that we're going to inoculate anyway. And he was right 447 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 3: to do it. I mean, they were losing so many 448 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 3: soldiers to the disease. And it's what's really galling is 449 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 3: General Howe in Boston. He was actually engaging in Durham 450 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 3: warfare because Washington wanted to take back Boston after the 451 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 3: British took it, but he couldn't because there was a 452 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 3: horrendous smallpox outbreak in the city, and he knew that 453 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 3: his rebel fighters could not enter without catching the disease 454 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 3: and dying and droves. So how knowing this intentionally infected 455 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 3: American citizens and then sent them out of the city 456 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 3: to go and have a chat with George Washington and 457 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 3: his soldiers in the hub that they would trigger a 458 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 3: spread of the disease, I mean literally duram warfare. And 459 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: Washington figured this out and that was a big part 460 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 3: of him ultimately saying I'm going to have to disobey 461 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 3: Congress and do the right thing here, and you know, 462 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 3: and inoculation was absolutely the way to go. 463 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 2: Well, Matt, thank you so much for talking about this topic, 464 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: for writing this book, which if you're a fan, I'm 465 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: a listener of the show. It is just chock full 466 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: of fascinating historical stories. I loved it. The book is 467 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 2: I told you so scientists who were ridiculed, exiled, and 468 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 2: imprisoned for being right out. February twenty fourth, Matt, where 469 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: can the good people find you if they want to 470 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: follow you, follow your writing and is there anything else 471 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: we can plug you? 472 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 3: Guys can totally find me on the McMillan page Saint 473 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 3: Martin's Press. You can also find me, you know. I mean, 474 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: I'm all over the place, but I do hope they 475 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 3: have a good read. 476 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you so much for taking the time to 477 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 2: speak with us today. 478 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 3: Absolute, my pleasure. Dana. 479 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and 480 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by me 481 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and research by Hannah Johnston, 482 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: hannah's Wick, Sender, Amy Hit and Julia Milani. The show 483 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: is edited and produced by Jesse Funk, with supervising producer 484 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: rima il Kaali and executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, 485 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 486 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 487 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: favorite shows.