Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. They're calling
Speaker 1: me the N word because they want me to feel bad,
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to give them that opportunity, and
Speaker 1: so I try to think about the why, which then
Speaker 1: allows me to separate the offensive comment from feeling offended.
Speaker 1: In the summer of twenty twenty, while in the throes
Speaker 1: of the global pandemic, many Americans found themselves wrestling with
Speaker 1: another virus of sorts, racism. I would say to black
Speaker 1: people that I don't expect anyone else to free us.
Speaker 1: That we freed ourselves during the Civil War, and we're
Speaker 1: gonna have to free ourselves, you know, from racism too.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I do not think it
Speaker 1: is all on us. With the killing of George Floyd,
Speaker 1: the killing of a mod Arbory, and the killing of
Speaker 1: Brianna Taylor, the phrase Black Lives Matter suddenly became mainstream.
Speaker 1: The stark nature of inequity and injustice became apparent for
Speaker 1: many who had tried to ignore it for so long,
Speaker 1: even for people accustomed to doing the work of anti racism,
Speaker 1: and especially for black folks doing that work. The mainstreaming
Speaker 1: of the movement has been both energizing and emotionally exhausting.
Speaker 1: We may easy to take breaks, and that's okay. People
Speaker 1: should listen to their bodies and to their feelings, and
Speaker 1: you know, knowing that three months from then, or a
Speaker 1: year from then, or in a different type of way,
Speaker 1: that that baton, you know, is going to be picked up.
Speaker 1: Doctor IBRAMX Kendy as a professor, scholar, writer, and most
Speaker 1: recently the host of the Pushkin podcast Be Anti Racist.
Speaker 1: When it comes to teaching anti racism to all, he
Speaker 1: has had to become a kind of endurance athlete, and
Speaker 1: we do all need to be a part of the solution.
Speaker 1: The demands of fighting racism are solvable. How are you
Speaker 1: settling into your new role as a Pushkin podcast host?
Speaker 1: Is this your first podcast, by the way, that you've hosted, Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: So how are you settling into your new role? I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm settling, and I mean podcasting obviously it's
Speaker 1: something quite different than anything you know, I've ever done,
Speaker 1: and so it's it's a learning curve and hopefully everyone's
Speaker 1: bearing with me. Hey, I think you're doing a great
Speaker 1: job be Anti Racist as the name of your show.
Speaker 1: I know that you didn't always imagine yourself doing the
Speaker 1: work that you do today. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about what you would have wanted to do if not
Speaker 1: working in anti racistool. I grew up a huge New
Speaker 1: York Knicks fan and played basketball, and so I mean,
Speaker 1: I would have loved to be the next John Starks
Speaker 1: and you know, or Alan Houston. I of course that
Speaker 1: didn't work out, and I actually even even initially was
Speaker 1: thinking about being an actually intern to be a sports reporter. Nice,
Speaker 1: but I think the more I wrote about sports, the
Speaker 1: more I became interested in writing about race and race
Speaker 1: in sport, and ultimately I dropped the sport. But I
Speaker 1: do sometimes, of course, write about sports understandable. I deal
Speaker 1: with race every day. Being black, I deal with it
Speaker 1: all the time, but I'm not necessarily an expert. After
Speaker 1: the killing of George Floyd, there was a lot of
Speaker 1: opportunities for me to talk to white folks about race,
Speaker 1: whether they were showing up in my inbox actually questions
Speaker 1: or apologizing for white privilege and all those I started
Speaker 1: an anti racist book club, going through the books that
Speaker 1: we're reading. Of course, one of them was Yours How
Speaker 1: to Be Anti Racist? Going through those conversations for me,
Speaker 1: I did it for a while. We did it for
Speaker 1: about six months or so, and then I got tired
Speaker 1: of doing it. I couldn't do it anymore. I'm like,
Speaker 1: this is this is too much. I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about racing people. I don't want to
Speaker 1: have to explain this to white folks, especially. I just
Speaker 1: didn't want to do it anymore. So I'm wondering, for
Speaker 1: somebody like you who does this twenty four to seven
Speaker 1: all the time, did you find that, maybe in the
Speaker 1: last year that this particular work has been more demanding
Speaker 1: and more taxing than usual, especially with everyone asking so
Speaker 1: many questions. So I think it has certainly been more
Speaker 1: demanding on my time. So it's just been harder to
Speaker 1: navigate it, you than before. The combination of that with
Speaker 1: trying to be responsive to the growing number of people
Speaker 1: who are becoming aware that there's a racism problem and
Speaker 1: who are trying to sort of understand it, and then
Speaker 1: even recently trying to be responsive to the all out
Speaker 1: effort to close those eyes that had been sort of
Speaker 1: opened a year ago. At the same time, I also
Speaker 1: recognize that, you know, I'm a scholar of race and racism,
Speaker 1: and so this is in a way sort of you
Speaker 1: know what I do, and I try to find soulless,
Speaker 1: and I try to ensure that I'm physically and emotionally
Speaker 1: capable to do this work, just like there are other
Speaker 1: professionals who who have to sort of think about that too.
Speaker 1: Whether you know a cancer doctor who day in and
Speaker 1: day out they deal with cancer, and I, you know,
Speaker 1: as somebody who has battled cancer, you know, I know
Speaker 1: how hard it is for our caretakers to really fight
Speaker 1: this just brutal disease, and just like it's hard for
Speaker 1: people who are fighting the disease of racism. In the
Speaker 1: months after George Floyd was killed, I noticed that there
Speaker 1: was a trend amongst especially amongst white folks in corporations
Speaker 1: to not only support Black Lives Matter, but we saw
Speaker 1: some forms of racial reckonings and racial reconciliations across some organizations,
Speaker 1: and the fervor has kind of died down a little bit.
Speaker 1: I imagine you had a feeling as you saw it rise,
Speaker 1: what's it like to also see it fall, what it's
Speaker 1: like as it's been just a bitter and brutal, really backlash.
Speaker 1: And so I don't think we should just imagine it
Speaker 1: sort of happened by happenstance, and so within for instance,
Speaker 1: days of George Floyd's murder and people demonstrating against that murder,
Speaker 1: you had the President of the United States, you know,
Speaker 1: calling them thugs, or you had him saying that, you know,
Speaker 1: when the looting starts, to shooting starts, and by the summer,
Speaker 1: efforts to hold people accountable suddenly became cancel culture, which
Speaker 1: was horrible. And then those there were simultaneous and growing
Speaker 1: attacks on the sixteen nineteen Project, attacks on the teaching
Speaker 1: of the history of slavery, or even about racism in schools,
Speaker 1: and of course that's the attacks that we're facing today,
Speaker 1: and it's it's just been it's been brutal to see
Speaker 1: because in most of these cases, those who were attacking,
Speaker 1: whether it was Black Lives Matter demonstrators or sixteen nineteen
Speaker 1: Project or anti racism or even now critical race theory,
Speaker 1: we're defining in a way or describing in a way
Speaker 1: that was not truthful, and then attacking their own definitions
Speaker 1: and defining in a way that would anger people and
Speaker 1: cause resentment, when that's actually in many cases not what
Speaker 1: people were doing or saying. Do you feel like this
Speaker 1: makes your job harder or does this feel like kind
Speaker 1: of just another day at the office. I'd say it's both.
Speaker 1: On the one hand, it certainly makes my job harder
Speaker 1: when other people have framed me in a particular way,
Speaker 1: that's false. They they're coming with a particular perspective, they're
Speaker 1: coming to hear the research or the evidence or the logic.
Speaker 1: When approaching people who who have not read my work,
Speaker 1: that just makes it harder to have those conversations. But
Speaker 1: on the other way, and it's another day at the office,
Speaker 1: because this is what happened prior to George Floyd's murder.
Speaker 1: This is what's happening over the course you know of history.
Speaker 1: I mean, Marks the King was consistently during his lifetime
Speaker 1: called an extremist, call an outside agitator, abolitionist. It was
Speaker 1: imagined where being divisive, I mean, this is what happens
Speaker 1: to people who are trying to create justice and equity.
Speaker 1: In terms of your headspace, if you could talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about how you manage the actual fight
Speaker 1: in your head when it comes through having to talk
Speaker 1: about what racism is explaining to folks and how that
Speaker 1: is taxing on you as a fellow black person. How
Speaker 1: that's taxing on you to actually have to give those
Speaker 1: answers and do that work. My work isn't necessarily directed
Speaker 1: specifically towards towards white people. I've encouraged even people of
Speaker 1: color to be anti racist, And it is a different
Speaker 1: type of conversation with different communities, which I think if
Speaker 1: I was just having the same conversation with the same community,
Speaker 1: I think it would be much more taxing. I would
Speaker 1: also add that I tried to separate statements about me
Speaker 1: or about black people that are offensive from feeling offended.
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's it's rare that just because somebody
Speaker 1: sort of calls me an idiot or calls me the
Speaker 1: end word, or threatens me in a particular way, or
Speaker 1: describes black people in a particular way, that I personally
Speaker 1: would feel bad because of that, And so I tried
Speaker 1: to make that separation. I think that's helped me. How
Speaker 1: do you make that separation because you just you might
Speaker 1: have said a key there that I don't I don't
Speaker 1: even know I could do that, because if somebody calls
Speaker 1: me an idiot or system about black people are automatically offended.
Speaker 1: What it is is I try to see what they're
Speaker 1: saying as a reflection first and foremost of what is
Speaker 1: wrong with them, And then I try to think about
Speaker 1: why are they doing that? So, why is it that
Speaker 1: someone is tweeting at me a personal attack as opposed
Speaker 1: to engaging with my specific ideas? And I know that
Speaker 1: you know it's it's a way to discredit me because
Speaker 1: they don't want to engage with my ideas, right, Or
Speaker 1: why is someone you know calling me the N word?
Speaker 1: They're calling me the N word because they want me
Speaker 1: to feel bad, and I'm not going to give them
Speaker 1: that opportunity. And so I try to think about the why,
Speaker 1: which then allows me to separate the offensive comment from
Speaker 1: feeling offended. Can you tell me a day that you
Speaker 1: felt like the work that you're doing is paying off.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of teachers that have store
Speaker 1: is like this, where they just feel like they've been
Speaker 1: working with their students and all of a sudden, you
Speaker 1: see them get it. You know, you see something happen.
Speaker 1: You're just like, this is what teaching's all about. Do
Speaker 1: you have a moment like that, especially in a work
Speaker 1: where sometimes it could be a little amorphous or nebulous
Speaker 1: to actually see like the clear fruits of your labor.
Speaker 1: I remember last June, and I don't remember the day
Speaker 1: when I came across a poll that showed that I
Speaker 1: think it was seventy six percent of Americans had told
Speaker 1: the posters that systemic racism exists and it's a huge problem.
Speaker 1: It was the highest recorded percentage of Americans, you know,
Speaker 1: ever recorded. I just remember almost being simultaneously in disbelief
Speaker 1: and hopeful that this clear governing majority could could take
Speaker 1: this nation to a place of justice, that we can
Speaker 1: sort of transform that awareness into action. What do you
Speaker 1: do when you're done for the day, when you don't
Speaker 1: have any more interviews, when you don't have any any
Speaker 1: anything to write in the moment, what do you do
Speaker 1: to recharge and to renew yourself in order to get
Speaker 1: ready and energize for the fight for tomorrow. So I
Speaker 1: tried to wind down with a sangria, but I like
Speaker 1: the night. I also, before I go to bed, I
Speaker 1: tried to to read quite a bit, because I think
Speaker 1: reading and focusing on a book, particularly a good book,
Speaker 1: just settles me, you know, settles my mind. So I think,
Speaker 1: between a sangria and hanging with my family, of course
Speaker 1: you know I'm reading. I think that's what sort of
Speaker 1: settles me each night. Has there ever been a moment
Speaker 1: for you where you just you, You've thought, you know what,
Speaker 1: I've had enough of this. I'm again managing the book club.
Speaker 1: That was the moment for me that I was like,
Speaker 1: you know it. On the individual level, I'll do this
Speaker 1: like I'll talk to folks if they want to talk.
Speaker 1: But I don't know if I can. I don't know
Speaker 1: if I'm just not equipped for this. I'll do like normal, average,
Speaker 1: everyday black folks who want to get involved in the
Speaker 1: work of anti racism, how do we solve for those
Speaker 1: feelings of exhaustion. We may need to take breaks, and
Speaker 1: that's okay. People should listen to their to their bodies
Speaker 1: and to their feelings. And you know, knowing that three
Speaker 1: months from then or a year from then, or in
Speaker 1: a different type of way, that that baton, you know
Speaker 1: it's going to be picked up. It can be burdensome
Speaker 1: when we feel it is it is on us. I
Speaker 1: would say to black people that I don't expect anyone
Speaker 1: else to free us, that we freed ourselves during the
Speaker 1: Civil War and we're gonna have to free ourselves, you know,
Speaker 1: from racism too. But on the other hand, I do
Speaker 1: not think it is all on us, you know. I
Speaker 1: think it's important for Asian Americans who are facing anti
Speaker 1: Asian racism to ally with with black folks facing anti
Speaker 1: black racism. It's it's important for white Americans who who
Speaker 1: are facing the collateral damage from racism to be like,
Speaker 1: you know what, this country is, democracy itself, even for
Speaker 1: people like me, is being threatened. So we need to
Speaker 1: sort of ally and come together to fight for you know,
Speaker 1: our democracy. I expect and hope that other groups will
Speaker 1: do this in other groups are doing this. I know
Speaker 1: there's a lot of listeners that are listening right now
Speaker 1: that probably want to be involved in the work. You know,
Speaker 1: we could point them in the direction of the podcast
Speaker 1: be anti Racists. We could point them in the direction
Speaker 1: of the books of course, how to be an anti Racist.
Speaker 1: And there's a bunch of other especially I like to
Speaker 1: call them race one on one books that listeners can read,
Speaker 1: and we can, you know, we can link to those.
Speaker 1: But what do you think, like, what's an everyday action
Speaker 1: that a listener can take in order to get involved
Speaker 1: with either work of anti racism work? Or even trying
Speaker 1: to recharge themselves to be ready for more anti racism work.
Speaker 1: I think we should all think about our own backyard,
Speaker 1: our own organizations, and identify the people or even the
Speaker 1: organizations that are fighting for racial justice or fighting for
Speaker 1: racial equity, and then to think about, you know, in
Speaker 1: what's small or large way, can I support these people,
Speaker 1: Can I support this organization to give ourselves, you know,
Speaker 1: in that way? And I think if we're all doing that,
Speaker 1: then we're going to have people in every backyard, in
Speaker 1: every institution who are trying to create, you know, an
Speaker 1: equitable injust world. Thank you so much for being with us,
Speaker 1: Doctor Kendy, Oh, you're welcome. Thank if you have me.
Speaker 1: Doctor Abramxic Kendy is the Andrew W. Mellon Professor and
Speaker 1: the Humanities at Boston University and the founding director of
Speaker 1: the buth Center for Anti Racist Research. He's a contributor
Speaker 1: writer at the Atlantic and a CBS News correspondent. He
Speaker 1: is the author of many books, including Stamp from the Beginning,
Speaker 1: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America, which won
Speaker 1: the National Book Award for non Fiction, and he's written
Speaker 1: four Number one New York Times bestsellers, including How to
Speaker 1: Be an Anti Racist. Be sure to check out our
Speaker 1: show notes to find a great list of resources where
Speaker 1: you could continue to learn about anti racism and help
Speaker 1: others to become anti racist too. And his podcast be
Speaker 1: Anti Racist has a terrific collection of listener guides which
Speaker 1: include discussion questions for listeners who are ready to get
Speaker 1: into the work with friends and family. This stuff is
Speaker 1: not easy, y'all. Even with doctor Kendy's great advice, sometimes
Speaker 1: we might need a little more direct support to get
Speaker 1: through the hard spots and curveballs the world throws. Next week,
Speaker 1: I'm talking with doctor Joy Harden Bradford about therapy stegma
Speaker 1: for black folks and how to transcend it in order
Speaker 1: to get the help you need. I hope you'll join us.
Speaker 1: Solvell Senior Producer is Jocelyn Frank, Research by David John,
Speaker 1: Booking by Lisa Dunn. Our Managing Producer is Sasha Matthias,
Speaker 1: and our executive producer is mio Leabelle. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: Tammy Wynn, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor,
Speaker 1: and Nicole Morano. Solvable is the production of Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1: If you like the show, please remember to share, rate,
Speaker 1: and review. It helps us find our way to the
Speaker 1: ears of new listeners. You can find Pushkin Podcasts wherever
Speaker 1: you listen, including on the iHeartRadio app and Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: I'm Ronald Young Jr. Thanks for listening.