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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane Jailey.

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Speaker 1: We bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,

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Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg Well.

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Speaker 1: Joining us here in a studio we have Michael Holland

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Speaker 1: of Holland and Company. And Michael, I'm wondering if I

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Speaker 1: could just ask you to cast your mind back, because

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about this knowing you were coming on,

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Speaker 1: and I was thinking about Louis Ruth Kaiser and Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Week, and I'm wondering if you can offer some

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Speaker 1: thoughts about why being an investor and being interested in

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Speaker 1: the stock market particularly not We'll get to the bond

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Speaker 1: market in a second. But the stock market used to

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Speaker 1: be fun and there was no real animosity involved in

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Speaker 1: the back and forth between the government and regulators and

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Speaker 1: investors and activists and so on. There was some of that.

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Speaker 1: But what in your mind has changed because you've lived

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Speaker 1: through this, Boy, that's a that's a really tough question

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Speaker 1: to him. I'm trying to make it easy at this

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Speaker 1: another cup of coffee, but talking about very heavy stuff.

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Speaker 1: The polarity in in in the US electorate in terms

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Speaker 1: of Republicans versus con Democrats, and then you then you

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Speaker 1: have bulls versus barriers. I mean, it's it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a nasty environment around the world in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: Having said that, I look back at the at the

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Speaker 1: year just ending, and we had such a relatively quiet,

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Speaker 1: peaceful marketplace in terms of most asset categories, and without

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Speaker 1: as you've report, every day, without a great deal of

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Speaker 1: volatility in the meantime, not just uh in exortively moving higher,

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Speaker 1: which is always pleasant for people are long, which most

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Speaker 1: of us are. Um, but also uh no, no scares

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Speaker 1: during the year, despite the bad headlines. So you've had

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Speaker 1: a real conundrum for people who like to be bearish

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Speaker 1: and negative during the year. UM. So far as is

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Speaker 1: how nice things were, I think the good old days

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Speaker 1: most of the time weren't all that good, even though

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Speaker 1: now they're old. So it seems better looking back. For

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Speaker 1: there are probably some people who don't, who don't even

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Speaker 1: have a clue who Lewis Ruckeiser was but twenty years ago,

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Speaker 1: ten years ago, he was one of the icons in

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Speaker 1: in broadcasting. He was actually the original um great financial

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Speaker 1: journalists because he was pretty much on his own. He

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Speaker 1: was on PBS and when they were only three networks,

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Speaker 1: so he had a huge many millions of viewers every week,

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Speaker 1: and he had people come on the show who m

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Speaker 1: by and large were very helpful to investors in terms

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Speaker 1: of how they put money to work. And it was

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Speaker 1: very educated and he did it with humor. And I

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Speaker 1: think Bloomberg to some extent has a little bit of

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Speaker 1: that uh ideology where you keep it interesting and if

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Speaker 1: not very funny, well it's interesting too that I wonder

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Speaker 1: if investors are better served by the plethora, if you will,

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Speaker 1: of opinions and coverage. I mean, I think about when

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Speaker 1: I started doing business news, there wasn't a lot. There

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Speaker 1: weren't many competing entities, if you will, in terms of covering.

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Speaker 1: But you know, business news is it better for investors now?

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Speaker 1: Quick answer, Carol, I I think yes. I like because

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Speaker 1: people then can pick and choose, and when things don't work,

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Speaker 1: they can reject them. So I'm always for choice and options.

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Speaker 1: So I'm I'm a big fan of that. And yet

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Speaker 1: there is a cacophony I think is the right word

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Speaker 1: of things coming at people, So if they're not educated

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Speaker 1: as to how to pick the right ones, it can

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Speaker 1: be an injurious thing. And does the infrastructure support the

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Speaker 1: retail investor as much as the institutional investor at this point, Well,

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Speaker 1: the retail investor actually has more information than share he

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Speaker 1: has ever had. That as you as your question implies,

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Speaker 1: that's not necessarily a good thing. Um, but if if

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Speaker 1: they can get some guidance from some people like Bloomberg, Okay,

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Speaker 1: whatever here Michael or Michael read the sign like, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm just kidding, no, no, no, but fair, but but

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Speaker 1: it's fair find some people who can at least guide

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Speaker 1: you into places where you can get you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying in terms of I don't necessarily have the

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Speaker 1: ability to trade as quickly as an institutional investor does. Um,

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Speaker 1: I may not want to, I may not want to write.

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Speaker 1: So I guess I'm wondering, is it's still skewed more

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Speaker 1: in favor of institutional investors. The quick answer, most people

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Speaker 1: who are out of the stock market say it's a

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Speaker 1: rigged game. They've said that for years, that that the

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Speaker 1: institutions and the professionals have the edge. There's it's never

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Speaker 1: been truer in terms of short term trading because of

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Speaker 1: all the hookups from the electronic things in so there's

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Speaker 1: no question that on a very short term basis it

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Speaker 1: is rigged. Yes, I actually believe that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get some some people yelling at me on that. But

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Speaker 1: it's happy. But but two Pim's response when you're asking

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Speaker 1: the question, Carrol, longer term, whether it's Warren Buffet or

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Speaker 1: Lewis Rukais or Benjamin Graham, the great people in the

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Speaker 1: business have figured out that the right way to do

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Speaker 1: this game is to play it for the long ball,

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Speaker 1: and you stay in it to win it, meaning that

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Speaker 1: you you find great investments and you stay with them

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Speaker 1: until there's a reason not to own them. And the

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Speaker 1: great fortunes that I've observed over the decades that I've

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Speaker 1: been in the business have been people who have identified

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Speaker 1: that and stayed with it and didn't trade them. Is

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Speaker 1: is there one particular investment that you could name and

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Speaker 1: describe how long you've had it in terms of is

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Speaker 1: it a decade long or two decades? I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can always meet people that say, oh, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have my original McDonald stock and I'm never going

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Speaker 1: to sell it, lucky enough to have actually followed what

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Speaker 1: what I just was talking about. So yeah, I do

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Speaker 1: owt here we are with many assets at their highs

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Speaker 1: of our lifetime. So I do owe things, own things

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Speaker 1: and have owned for decades things we talked earlier on

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Speaker 1: television about. I finally sold ge over the past year,

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Speaker 1: but I had owned that for I do own JP Morgan,

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Speaker 1: which I which I started out working at as as

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Speaker 1: a as a young buck, I think during the Civil

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Speaker 1: War something like that. And I also you know stocks

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Speaker 1: like Microsoft, Apple and you know the Forrest Gump. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So I've been able to to own things and stay

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Speaker 1: with them because I haven't had a reason to sell them.

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Speaker 1: I owned Oracle back in the dot com days. It

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Speaker 1: had gone up so much over an eighteen month period

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Speaker 1: I had to sell it. I've never been able to

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Speaker 1: get back in because that was one of the few

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Speaker 1: times when it just went so stratospheric in terms of

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Speaker 1: stock price. But yeah, I do own things and have

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Speaker 1: owned them for decades, thank you. But is that problematic

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Speaker 1: then with a name like General Electric that got hammered

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Speaker 1: this year, uh and has had some rough years. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you talk to people right, I mean in holding things

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Speaker 1: like when do you know though that wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: while I am a long term investor, it is time

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Speaker 1: to get out. It's not problematic carely, it's very rational,

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Speaker 1: and there's a point at which you know that that

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Speaker 1: what you bought is no longer there and either the

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Speaker 1: value or or or the price and the value meaning

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Speaker 1: that what's the intrinsic value of the company, and if

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Speaker 1: the intrinsic value companies it had been eroded unfortunately by

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Speaker 1: events or by actions um, but whatever it was um

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Speaker 1: and and years ago IBM the same way for me

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Speaker 1: after multiple, multiple quarters of down revenues and why were

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Speaker 1: the revenues down? And what In the meantime, Microsoft is

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Speaker 1: doing things in the cloud that are so as you

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Speaker 1: said earlier on television, you have options as so you

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Speaker 1: don't have to own a company that is no longer

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Speaker 1: what you should get rid of it. So it's not

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Speaker 1: problematic at all. It's the right thing to do. Should

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Speaker 1: we be concerned about an upcoming election in Italy? Quick

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Speaker 1: answer PIM was no, Caroline, I discussed earlier. And the

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Speaker 1: fact is that the europe has been a pleasant surprise

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Speaker 1: over the past year. And I don't think Italy rises

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Speaker 1: to the level of of something that is going to

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Speaker 1: upset the the pleasant situation in Europe. And the phrase

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Speaker 1: was used earlier. The investors in Italy, for example, have

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Speaker 1: been vaccinated against political instability, and I think that's a

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Speaker 1: great phase. I think to some extent that's the case.

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Speaker 1: You know, we could be surprised, but that that's now

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Speaker 1: where I would bet right now that it would cause

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Speaker 1: that no issues with the euro and any of the

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Speaker 1: political parties that have already stated, you know, they want

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Speaker 1: to referendum on the euro and then uh, you have

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Speaker 1: this big divide between wealth and the north and uh

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Speaker 1: less wealth in the south. Yes, and always to be watched.

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Speaker 1: At this point, it doesn't look as if it your

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Speaker 1: word is for investors problematic, but to be to be

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Speaker 1: to be watched for sure. Does Europe continue to be

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Speaker 1: an area of opportunity investment opportunity We've we've heard that

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Speaker 1: play easily over the last year or so because evaluation

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Speaker 1: certainly cheaper than what we you know, look at like

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Speaker 1: in the US market. Is that continuing to be an

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Speaker 1: area of opportunity next year? The wind at the back

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Speaker 1: of those investments looks to be continuing Carol, So I

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Speaker 1: would stay I'm there, and I would I would stay

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Speaker 1: with it. At least for now, it looks it still

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Speaker 1: looks promising on a relative valuation basis, for sure. Michael Holland,

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Speaker 1: always fun to have you on. Happy New Year. Happy

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Speaker 1: new Year, and take care of yourself. Michael Holland Sherman

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Speaker 1: of Holland and Company. Joining us here on Bloomberg Surveillance. Hey,

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Speaker 1: I want to switch gears a little bit and talk

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Speaker 1: um a little bit more about the tax legislation that

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Speaker 1: has passed, because I think we continue to pour over

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Speaker 1: it and talk about the implications for individuals. Joining us

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Speaker 1: right now is Chris Edwards. He's CATO Director of Cato Institute,

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Speaker 1: Director of Tax Policy Studies, also editor of www dot

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Speaker 1: Downsizing Government dot org, and he says in an editorial,

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Speaker 1: he says the media has gotten the GOP tax plan

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Speaker 1: wrong and that rather than being a windfall for the wealthy,

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Speaker 1: that it really is giving the largest relative cuts to

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Speaker 1: the middle class. Chris, good to have you here with

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Speaker 1: PIM and myself. Explain your argument, Um, the it's true

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Speaker 1: that higher income people will get larger dollar cuts, and um,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of stories of stress that and

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Speaker 1: argued sort of that the rich are going to get

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Speaker 1: the highest benefits. But if you actually look at how

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Speaker 1: much income tax people pay now, and you look at

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Speaker 1: how much these tax cuts are as a percent of

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Speaker 1: how much income tax they pay now, it really is

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Speaker 1: the middle going to get the biggest cuts. For example,

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Speaker 1: I mean, people right in the middle, say fifty seventy

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year, they may get, you know, or

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Speaker 1: so tax cut, a huge cut, I mean, but the

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Speaker 1: truth is they don't actually pay much better income tax now.

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Speaker 1: People um higher over a hundred thousand dollars may get

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Speaker 1: a ten percent cutter. So so, uh, you know, the

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Speaker 1: people in the middle, they may be only pay a

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Speaker 1: few thousands dollars of income tax now, but they're gonna get,

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Speaker 1: you know, a substantial tax cut of five or more,

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Speaker 1: which they will probably notice next year. Chris Edwards, could

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Speaker 1: you just share with us and maybe even personal anecdote

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Speaker 1: or a history that has informed your thinking about economics,

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Speaker 1: because previously I note that you were a senior economist

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Speaker 1: on the Congressional Joint Economic Committee. You are a manager

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Speaker 1: with Price waterhouse Coopers, and you know one of the

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Speaker 1: things that happens when big pieces of legislation, uh become

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Speaker 1: h de facto law. Is is you know, there are

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Speaker 1: both arguments on each side for many sides, rather for

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Speaker 1: the positive and negative effects. What has influenced you in

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Speaker 1: terms of how you look at tax policy? Well, that's

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Speaker 1: actually an easy question because so I spent five years

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Speaker 1: in the Washington National Tax Service of Price Waterhouse Cooper's

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Speaker 1: here in Washington. Uh, they deal with all the big

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Speaker 1: you know, all the biggest multinationals and the corporate tax

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Speaker 1: planning they do. And I was just really struck then, Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is this is fifteen years ago about how responsive

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Speaker 1: big corporations are two tax changes, uh, and how important

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Speaker 1: that tax rate is. So when I came to the

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Speaker 1: Cato Institute sixteen seventeen years ago, I started writing about

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Speaker 1: this issue about how other countries are major trading partners

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Speaker 1: were cutting their corporate tax rate and that was really

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Speaker 1: having a big influence on the investment decisions of the

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Speaker 1: biggest corporations as well as the avoidance decisions. I mean

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Speaker 1: the big multinationals, as we all know now, they go

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Speaker 1: to extreme lengths to move profits over to the highest

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Speaker 1: tax country. So it has struck me for a long

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Speaker 1: time that I think that both the government and businesses

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Speaker 1: in the economy, we can all be winners by lowering

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Speaker 1: our corporate tax rate. You get less corporate tax cheating,

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Speaker 1: you get more investment here. I think it's a win

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Speaker 1: win for the US economy. Chris, we talked about this

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Speaker 1: earlier he Bloomberg Television, and I hear what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: and many might argue, or many would argue that it

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Speaker 1: is good that we're bringing down the corporate tax rate,

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Speaker 1: although many companies had really smart accountants so that their

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Speaker 1: effective tax rate was even lower than the new rate

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Speaker 1: that's been put out there. Um, so there is that

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Speaker 1: argument as well. What I'm curious about those what our

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Speaker 1: companies going to do with the money, the extra money

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Speaker 1: that they're going to have by paying a reduced rate.

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Speaker 1: Will it be put in the pockets of workers or

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Speaker 1: will it be put back into the pockets of kind

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Speaker 1: of the key executives by doing buy backs and off

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Speaker 1: it ends and shoring up those earnings per share numbers.

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Speaker 1: Certainly when we talk about publicly health companies, well to

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Speaker 1: go to your first comment first, though, the difference between

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Speaker 1: the statutory federal rate of or legal rate of thirty five,

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Speaker 1: And you're right, many companies have lower average effective rates,

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Speaker 1: maybe in the low twenties or so. But the important

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Speaker 1: thing is that people shouldn't forget it is the legal

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Speaker 1: or statutory rate that drives the tax avoidance. If you

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Speaker 1: can move your profits out of the United States to

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Speaker 1: Ireland or the Cayman Islands or somewhere else, you are

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Speaker 1: saving at that thirty rate. So that is one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why lowering the legal rate is important. Businesses

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Speaker 1: look at across country investments. They look at what's called

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Speaker 1: the marginal effective rate. If you build a new factory

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Speaker 1: here versus Mexico, you know, what is the government's take

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Speaker 1: on that additional you know, a hundred million dollars of investment.

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Speaker 1: That's the important rate in our marginal effective rate United

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Speaker 1: States is high. I think if we reduced with you know,

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Speaker 1: we have reduced the rate now our marginal effect the

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Speaker 1: right will fall. I think at the margin there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a lot more facilities that makes sense building

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Speaker 1: United States than China, in Mexico than Canada. I think

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Speaker 1: this will bring investment home. Chris, is there an example

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Speaker 1: of another large developed economy that works better in terms

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Speaker 1: of its connection with tax policy and economic performance and

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Speaker 1: corporate behavior. Well, one of the you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the interesting things is, as you know, all our trading

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Speaker 1: partners now have dropped their corporate tax rates, whether their

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Speaker 1: conservative governments or liberal governments in places like Canada, in

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Speaker 1: Britain and Ireland. Uh, the other countries have recognized that

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Speaker 1: high high corporate at tax rates you shoot yourself in

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Speaker 1: the foot because you lose investments. So I've looked in detail,

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Speaker 1: for example, at that both the Canadians and Brits have

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Speaker 1: slashed their corporate tax rates, and looking at their government accounts,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't appear that the governments have lost any money.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of remarkable, and I think the explanation is

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Speaker 1: the corporate multinationals cheat lefts on Canadian and British taxes.

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Speaker 1: Now they invest more, and again I think both the

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Speaker 1: economy and the government ends up being a winner in this.

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Speaker 1: Will we see the wages increase for workers, something that

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Speaker 1: you know, with many things recovering off the financial crisis,

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Speaker 1: this is something that has been not really kind of

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Speaker 1: come back, if you will, from the financial mailtown. I

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Speaker 1: think that I think they will now because of course,

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Speaker 1: the job market is getting pretty tight with a low

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Speaker 1: unemployment rate. Hopefully the participation rate will start rising again

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Speaker 1: as businesses invest more here and hire more workers. I

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Speaker 1: think the problem in the future of the United States

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Speaker 1: is not that we're gonna have excess workers. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: have worker shortages with more and more people the baby

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Speaker 1: boomers retiring as smaller relative workforce. So I think this

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Speaker 1: tax actually came at the right time here to boost

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Speaker 1: investment to get more of those people. But way way,

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Speaker 1: But Chris, what about the increase in the deficit. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a chillion dollars plus at a time.

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Speaker 1: We're adding to the deficit. When things are going actually

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Speaker 1: fairly well, people will say corporate profits look pretty good,

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Speaker 1: corporate revenues look pretty good. What happens, it's an economic cycle,

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Speaker 1: it's a market cycle. Things will turn down then. What

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Speaker 1: I agree, the death of the federal government depths the

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Speaker 1: giant problem. Even without this tax cut, the official projection

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Speaker 1: so the government will add to a ten trilling and

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Speaker 1: debt over the next ten years. It's really kind of

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Speaker 1: a crazy situation. We have to deal with that problem.

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Speaker 1: I think with this tax cut, the business tax cuts

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Speaker 1: will ultimately pay for themselves in the long run. The

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Speaker 1: individual cuts, you know, they expire in and it's going

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Speaker 1: to be up to voters and politicians down the road

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Speaker 1: as to whether, you know, if they get the deficits

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Speaker 1: under control, it might make sense to extend those individual

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Speaker 1: tax cuts. If we don't, uh, you don't get the

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Speaker 1: deficits under control with spending, then we should probably let

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Speaker 1: these individual cuts expire. Frankly, Chris Edwards, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for your time this morning. Uh CATO, director of Tax

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Speaker 1: Policy as editor of www dot Downsizing government dot org.

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Speaker 1: Joining us on the phone. Let's bring in our next guest.

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Speaker 1: What do you think? Matt Matt Brill. He is a

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Speaker 1: senior portfolio manager for Investco uh and Investo Fixed Income,

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Speaker 1: responsible for a variety of credit strategies. Matt Brill, thanks

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Speaker 1: very much for being with us. Great good morning. UM.

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Speaker 1: Let's speak in if you can with your thoughts having

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Speaker 1: to do with the Federal reserves reduction in its balance sheet.

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Speaker 1: If the Federal Reserve is gonna cut back on its buying,

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Speaker 1: which it has already done, but it will accelerate in

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Speaker 1: who's going to buy all those extra treasuries? Well, it

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Speaker 1: starts with foreigners for one, So the foreigners have been

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Speaker 1: a huge buyer of our of our market in terms

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Speaker 1: of sixed income for the last several years. And you

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Speaker 1: continue to see rates in your Europe as well as

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Speaker 1: rates and Asia stay low. It's got about of Europe

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Speaker 1: actually has a negative yield. Still about of the globe

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Speaker 1: has a negative yield, so we're still continue see influence

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Speaker 1: from them. And you're also starting to see the banks

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Speaker 1: in the US start to pick up a little bit

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Speaker 1: buying of mortgages as well. And you've seen even with

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Speaker 1: the FED pulling back and starting the taper that my

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Speaker 1: mortgages haven't had any effect to yet. Um, are you

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Speaker 1: anticipating in terms of global central bank policy? Are we

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Speaker 1: going to kind of get off of this easy monetary policy.

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Speaker 1: We've already started to see that with the Fed, but

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Speaker 1: pull in other central banks. Um, that seems to be

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Speaker 1: the conversation that we're all having when it comes to well,

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Speaker 1: it's the track we're on, but it's gonna take a while.

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Speaker 1: So it's sort of started in two thousands seventeen with

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Speaker 1: the FED. You're gonna get the ECB really starting to

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Speaker 1: roll out of things a little bit in the first

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Speaker 1: quarter of two thousand and eighteen. But then you're really

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Speaker 1: not seeing anything out of Asia yet, so the Bank

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Speaker 1: of Japan is going to continue to be very accommodative.

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Speaker 1: So I think what a lot of people think is

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Speaker 1: that you're getting tapering around the globe, but you're actually

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Speaker 1: still seeing an expansion about balance sheets, and we'd expect

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Speaker 1: that to continue till about two that in a nineteen

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Speaker 1: and then you'll start to see that decline a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So we're still really uh addicted to this que at

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Speaker 1: this point. Well, but you've mentioned having to do with

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Speaker 1: foreigners buying a lot of our treasury debt. Would that

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Speaker 1: entail and increase in the value of the US dollar

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Speaker 1: or has that already been priced in? Well, a little

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Speaker 1: bit of that is already priced in. We think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, you are starting to get a little bit

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Speaker 1: of high rates in the US on the front end

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Speaker 1: at some point here you're going to start to get

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Speaker 1: it in Europe. And I think the surprises of growth

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Speaker 1: in Europe have actually contained the dollar appreciation versus the euro.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that you're getting growth out of Europe

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Speaker 1: that's really been a little bit of a head wind

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Speaker 1: to the dollar. Appreciating over the past year. What about

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Speaker 1: the go ahead? No, no, I was just going to

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Speaker 1: quote that you give you the euro number, which is

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Speaker 1: one nineteen. I'm wondering whether you have any idea of

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Speaker 1: what what level do you think it would be be

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Speaker 1: trading at. Yeah, so we would think you're a little

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Speaker 1: bit ranged down here between the one fifteen. So at

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Speaker 1: this point, I think in one fifteen is probably a

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Speaker 1: fair number to put on it. Hey, do you guys

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Speaker 1: spend a lot of time in Investco talking about the

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Speaker 1: flattening US the curve? I mean, this is among one

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Speaker 1: of our most read stories, and I'm minding you it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a quiet week, but we have

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Speaker 1: been you know, following this, uh, certainly late here in

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Speaker 1: the year as we watch this yeal curve and trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out is it, you know, an indication of

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Speaker 1: something more ominous to come for the US economy. Well,

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Speaker 1: we do said a lot of time talking about it.

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Speaker 1: I think at this point, really it's really more of

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Speaker 1: a function of inflation, and so a lot of people

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Speaker 1: really get obsessed with the FED and how much the

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Speaker 1: FED is gonna hike. But I like to point out

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Speaker 1: that the FED is now hiked five times, and yet

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Speaker 1: you've only seen the ten year treasure rise by ten

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Speaker 1: basis points. Why is that? Is it just the Fed

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Speaker 1: managing everybody so well? I think it's because there there's

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Speaker 1: literally no inflation in the US, no inflation in Europe,

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Speaker 1: and no inflation in Asia. So you know that's due

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Speaker 1: to technological innovation, we believe also a function of demographics.

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Speaker 1: So Matt Brill, I gotta I gotta jump in there,

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Speaker 1: because whenever I hear there's I feel like I am

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Speaker 1: paying more for everything in my world. I don't know

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Speaker 1: where you're shopping. Maybe have you heard of Amazon dot Com? No?

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Speaker 1: I yeah, I've got plenty of Amazon boxes coming into

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Speaker 1: my house and Amazon Prime and I get that part

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Speaker 1: of it. But you know, if you're paying for education anywhere, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, I just feel like there's a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: Taxes are going to go up in my world to

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Speaker 1: some extent um. I just I don't know, I don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily see. I feel like I wonder if our measurements

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Speaker 1: of inflation are really accurate. Well, I think so. One

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Speaker 1: of the areas that you had seen a lot of,

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Speaker 1: you know, significant increases in prices was was in the

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Speaker 1: housing market and particularly in owner's equivalent rent So you

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Speaker 1: saw a lot of I saw a lot of rents

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Speaker 1: going up in apartments. But if you look around, you

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Speaker 1: see a lot of cranes everywhere, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of construction within apartment complexes that are going on across

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Speaker 1: the country, and that's actually going to start to decrease

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Speaker 1: the uh, the rate of growth within rents that are

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Speaker 1: out there. So that's gonna actually be a little bit

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Speaker 1: of help from that standpoint. Can't really help you from

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Speaker 1: the inflation standpoint. In terms of college education, that's something

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Speaker 1: that was obviously, in my opinion, driven by easy access

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Speaker 1: to credit in terms of you know, student loans. But

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Speaker 1: from a from a just a typical, you know, consumer

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Speaker 1: spending standpoint, we do believe that Amazon has pushed prices

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Speaker 1: of groceries lowers, push prices of of of common goods

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Speaker 1: like um like write retail goods lower, and from that standpoint,

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Speaker 1: we really think that that that is here to stay.

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Speaker 1: And I will say t J. Max, I'm a little

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Speaker 1: familiar with it, much to my husband's chagrin. Hey, Matt,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much. Fund A way in on a

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Speaker 1: couple of different topics with you. Matt ral Senior portfolio

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Speaker 1: manager investment grade credit, fixed income over at Investco. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen

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Speaker 1: you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom Keene before the podcast.

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