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Speaker 1: Heart Media, or their employees. The worst part is that
Speaker 1: he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, correct,
Speaker 1: but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did,
Speaker 1: and that's even way worse than money he took. In
Speaker 1: this episode, we are going to hear the story of
Speaker 1: Eileen Charlotte, who knew that swiping right could cause such
Speaker 1: a world of hurt. Now, lots of people have had
Speaker 1: bad match stories on Tinder, but this is a whole
Speaker 1: different level. The Tinder swindler managed to steal millions of
Speaker 1: dollars from multiple women from around the world, most of
Speaker 1: whom fell for his charm, charisma, love, bombing, false promises,
Speaker 1: and ultimately his scam. Eileen Charlotte was one of the
Speaker 1: women who got caught up in the twisted story of
Speaker 1: Simon the Tinder Swindler. Simon posted a lavish lifestyle and
Speaker 1: Instagram and Tinder a well traveled, attractive, and fun loving guy,
Speaker 1: and he matched with Eileen. In the months to follow,
Speaker 1: Eileen found herself falling in love with Simon. They moved
Speaker 1: in and planned a future together. At the same time, though,
Speaker 1: he kept pressuring her for money, claiming that he was
Speaker 1: in danger because of his business and had to hide
Speaker 1: from people who were coming after him. Eileen ended up
Speaker 1: loaning him over one hundred and forty thousand dollars, which
Speaker 1: he had promised to pay back, and she almost lost
Speaker 1: her home. He left her feeling that her own life
Speaker 1: and her family's lives were at risk. Eileen's story is
Speaker 1: the cautionary tale of a fairy tale gone dark. Her
Speaker 1: story is no different than that of many young women.
Speaker 1: Like so many others, she's ambitious with a zest for life,
Speaker 1: and she was just simply looking for love. The Netflix
Speaker 1: documentary The Tinder Swindler made waves around the world and
Speaker 1: changed Eileen's life overnight. The Tinder Swindler is not just
Speaker 1: a story of an online scammer. It's a story about narcissism.
Speaker 1: This story teaches us that when you combine the manipulative
Speaker 1: ingredients of narcissism with the hope of a love story,
Speaker 1: you end up with a broken heart and an empty
Speaker 1: bank account. Eileen is here to tell this story and
Speaker 1: how she, in her fashion, triumphed in the end. We
Speaker 1: are going to break down love bombing and the overall
Speaker 1: architecture of the narcissistic relationship, as well as her path
Speaker 1: of healing from not just the financial debt, but the
Speaker 1: emotional debt. Instead of glorifying the grifter, this is the
Speaker 1: story of the survivor. So welcome Aileen. It's so nice
Speaker 1: to have you. Thank you so much, and thank you
Speaker 1: so much for having me as well. Of course, I mean,
Speaker 1: so could you break down for us, aside from the
Speaker 1: sort of surface level things, what attracted you to him
Speaker 1: and led you to fall in love. Now, he was
Speaker 1: very interested in me on a personal level, what I
Speaker 1: was doing, my friends, my family, the way I lived,
Speaker 1: and it immediately created a bond because he had a
Speaker 1: different lifestyle. But still we we had a great connection
Speaker 1: because he was still like a down to earth guy
Speaker 1: who was also looking for love, and that's what made
Speaker 1: me really attracted to him. That is such an important
Speaker 1: thing to note when it came down to it. What
Speaker 1: I'm hearing is that it was really that he was
Speaker 1: deeply interested in you. We all know that charm and
Speaker 1: charisma and confidence can often attract us to someone, but
Speaker 1: we can't underestimate curiosity. Simon was interested in Eileen's life
Speaker 1: and wanted to learn about her. Charisma maybe dazzling, but
Speaker 1: intense curiosity can be seductive in a way that leaves
Speaker 1: a person not even thinking about red flags. I was
Speaker 1: traveling a lot for work, and he always came to
Speaker 1: visit me. For example, when I was in Barcelona for
Speaker 1: work trip, or when I was in London for a
Speaker 1: work trip, he came to visit me, which is also
Speaker 1: very special because someone is just flying over the earth
Speaker 1: because he's so busy and still he made some time
Speaker 1: for me to see me and to meet me. So
Speaker 1: that also made me feel and made me fall in
Speaker 1: love with him, because yeah, it really felt that he
Speaker 1: was interested in me and not my looks or I
Speaker 1: don't know, so I'm sure it was all of them, right,
Speaker 1: you know, it was all of that he was interested
Speaker 1: in you. But coming back to that point though, the
Speaker 1: way the story has been told is that it was
Speaker 1: all very flashy and exciting, but what he was bringing
Speaker 1: to the table really was that he was interested in you,
Speaker 1: and you were interested in him, and he was very atentive.
Speaker 1: And I think that we underestimate how important that is.
Speaker 1: No matter what a person brings the table, gifts, experiences, whatever,
Speaker 1: it's that really focused attention interest that somebody has in
Speaker 1: us that's really really appealing. So that's a universal theme, right, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: of course, And it doesn't matter where you are with
Speaker 1: a person, because for example, I also had a small
Speaker 1: dinner in a small Italian restaurant and we were just
Speaker 1: eating pizza, so it wasn't all fleshy like it's been
Speaker 1: described in the documentary as well. Now, can you tell
Speaker 1: us about how it was when the two of you
Speaker 1: moved in together. It was really nice in the beginning.
Speaker 1: We had a lot of fun and I could finally
Speaker 1: like really be together with him. And because sometimes when
Speaker 1: you're traveling a lot, he was over there, I was
Speaker 1: over there, so sometimes it was really difficult to see
Speaker 1: each other, but now he was actually there all the time,
Speaker 1: And did you find yourself growing closer to him at
Speaker 1: this time or were there any issues that came up.
Speaker 1: He build up the story about his enemies and that
Speaker 1: he got attacked, like we are also seen in the
Speaker 1: movie that he and his bodyguard were attacked, and he
Speaker 1: created this story about the enemies who wanted him dead,
Speaker 1: and he needed to live a little bit undetected. So
Speaker 1: that's why he moved in with me, because yeah, everything
Speaker 1: was under my name and nothing was under his name.
Speaker 1: He was also starting to use my money, so yeah,
Speaker 1: those were the difficulties I needed to face. But he
Speaker 1: made his company sent me a check to cover all
Speaker 1: the money he um he was using from me, So
Speaker 1: I thought everything was fine. Yeah, of course of course
Speaker 1: you did, right. I mean, that's why wouldn't you write
Speaker 1: it's right there, it's right there in black and white,
Speaker 1: there's a check. We talk about these red flags as
Speaker 1: though they are so obvious, like these big neon signs
Speaker 1: that anyone can see in retrospect. The idea that he
Speaker 1: had these enemies out for him feels outlandish, and her
Speaker 1: covering and paying the bills the suspicious but narcissistic people
Speaker 1: are so skilled at taking bizarre and shady stuff and
Speaker 1: putting it together into what feels like a plausible narrative.
Speaker 1: And Eileen cared about him, So whenever we care about someone,
Speaker 1: we make the pieces fit. So let's go back and
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about love bombing, right, because in
Speaker 1: this kind of a relationship, we see it every single time,
Speaker 1: and love bombing is a sort of really intense at
Speaker 1: times even overwhelming, early phase of the relationship. Now it
Speaker 1: can look different in different kinds of relationships, right, but
Speaker 1: it basically is the early part of the relationship is
Speaker 1: characterized by something that almost feels like a fairy tale
Speaker 1: or a fantasy. It's that intense, it's that overwhelming. When
Speaker 1: you look back on this relationship with Simon, what parts
Speaker 1: or what experiences would you identify as the love bombing
Speaker 1: in the beginning because he started to ask money for
Speaker 1: me after almost seven months, But he was so generous
Speaker 1: in the months before. He was so open, and he
Speaker 1: called me up every day, and also every time when
Speaker 1: I made a transaction to him, he was so sweet.
Speaker 1: If I got the money, and he was bombing me
Speaker 1: and bombing me and bombing me with love, and I
Speaker 1: want to marry you, I want to have kids with you,
Speaker 1: I want to be with you, I want to grow
Speaker 1: old with you. But at some point when I, for example,
Speaker 1: didn't got the money or confronted him with like, what
Speaker 1: are you doing? I'm sending you all this money and
Speaker 1: it's never enough for you, then he always got angry
Speaker 1: and mad. So as a woman in a relationship, you
Speaker 1: always want to go back to the part when it
Speaker 1: was nice. So you really hope to get the feeling
Speaker 1: again of the love you had. Okay, so there's a
Speaker 1: lot we can unpack here. When a narcissistic person feels
Speaker 1: satisfied or safe in a relationship, they promised the sun
Speaker 1: and moon to a partner. They make future faked promises,
Speaker 1: things that they say will happen, but they never will. However,
Speaker 1: when the narcissistic person is tense or their needs aren't
Speaker 1: being met, that's when you see the rage and the manipulation.
Speaker 1: If you don't know what you are dealing with, this
Speaker 1: can be really confusing. How long would you say that
Speaker 1: that love bombing period lasted with Simon? I think it
Speaker 1: was the whole period of me having a relationship with him.
Speaker 1: It's difficult to describe because in the beginning everything was
Speaker 1: good and he stayed sweet all the time because he
Speaker 1: needed something from me. It's interesting what you're describing here, Eileen,
Speaker 1: because when we think of it from the sort of
Speaker 1: framework of the more sort of toxic or narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you brought this up, because we often
Speaker 1: think of these are separate phases. There's love bombing and
Speaker 1: then things go wrong. But what was happening for you
Speaker 1: is something that happens a lot is the two are interlinked,
Speaker 1: and he had an agenda, right he wanted something from you.
Speaker 1: In this particular case, it was money. In another relationship
Speaker 1: it could be something else, but in this case it
Speaker 1: was money. So when he saw that all of his
Speaker 1: sort of charming, attentive behavior got him what he wanted,
Speaker 1: It got him the money he wanted to keep his
Speaker 1: scheme going, then he would almost relax, and in that
Speaker 1: relaxing he would become very very sweet. I want to
Speaker 1: marry you, I want to grow old with you, all
Speaker 1: these things that are very very seductive to hear. But
Speaker 1: any moment that you would have pushed back, Why do
Speaker 1: you need it so fast? Or why do you even
Speaker 1: need this money, immediately you would see anger. So it's
Speaker 1: such an interesting way that this happened because you had
Speaker 1: both the love bobbing and the devaluing phases happening at
Speaker 1: the same time, and you were pulled back to wanting.
Speaker 1: That sort of idealized seductive time was almost there all
Speaker 1: the time, Like it was two masks. He was, in essence,
Speaker 1: wearing two masks, the aggressive, angry, you know, sort of
Speaker 1: rageful mask when he didn't get what he wanted, and
Speaker 1: this really seductive, loving, attentive mask when he got what
Speaker 1: he wanted. And that was the back and forth. How
Speaker 1: long until you connected that? Did you ever connect that out?
Speaker 1: When I give him the money, he's a really nice guy.
Speaker 1: When I don't give him money, he becomes really aggressive.
Speaker 1: How long did it take you to figure that out?
Speaker 1: I think after a few months of giving him money
Speaker 1: and made several transactions to him, I found out that
Speaker 1: every time when I didn't gave him money, he got
Speaker 1: angry and he always put the blame on me. And
Speaker 1: that's when I started to realize that it wasn't actually okay,
Speaker 1: Because in a relationship there are two people, and if
Speaker 1: you like someone, you don't want to make them feel bad,
Speaker 1: and he made every time when I, for example, couldn't
Speaker 1: send him the money or didn't send him the money,
Speaker 1: he really made me feel bad that it was my
Speaker 1: fault that everything would be blown up. Interesting. Blame shifting
Speaker 1: is one of the most common narcissistic patterns. Narcissistic people
Speaker 1: cannot take responsibility, will not take responsibility, and anything that
Speaker 1: goes wrong is blamed on other people. Their grandiosity and
Speaker 1: their need to be all powerful means they cannot take
Speaker 1: ownership of mistakes because then that means they aren't all that.
Speaker 1: Blame shifting is a way for them to maintain their
Speaker 1: grandiose facade. And then I started to realize that there
Speaker 1: was something wrong. I can't imagine this happening, given how
Speaker 1: strong and resolute even I'm you know, seeing you to
Speaker 1: be in this conversation. Was there ever a moment you
Speaker 1: ever thought like, Okay, if I keep giving him the money,
Speaker 1: then this relationship is going to run well Or as
Speaker 1: soon as you recognize what was going on, you said no,
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this anymore. Yes, because it's
Speaker 1: not fun, because he really makes you live in fear
Speaker 1: with his enemies and people who are hunting him, so
Speaker 1: he really makes you live in fear, and at a
Speaker 1: certain point, losing all the money and living in fear,
Speaker 1: I knew that I didn't want it anymore because this
Speaker 1: is not the love I prefer, right, I mean, love
Speaker 1: and fear actually are not good flavors together. It doesn't
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel good to a greater or lesser degree.
Speaker 1: All narcissistic relationships are about fear, and the person in
Speaker 1: the narcissistic relationship list in a constant cycle of trying
Speaker 1: to please them and never anger them. It can be
Speaker 1: an actual fear of their rage, or it can be
Speaker 1: a fear of having to really accept what this relationship is,
Speaker 1: so people just keep trying to please them until they can't. Eileen,
Speaker 1: how did he sell that story to you so that
Speaker 1: when he asked you for money it didn't seem alarming.
Speaker 1: He always had projects which he was calling and referring
Speaker 1: to as operations, and there was always a new operation
Speaker 1: to support in a way which he needed money for,
Speaker 1: or he needed money for flight tickets and hotels and traveling.
Speaker 1: So those kind of things I mostly sponsored in a way.
Speaker 1: When he would ask for the money, would you be
Speaker 1: able to say, can I have a little bit of
Speaker 1: time to think about this? Now, that's the problem with
Speaker 1: these type of rodsters. They don't make you think rationally.
Speaker 1: For example, if I would ask my friend for money,
Speaker 1: I can always say to her or him like, I
Speaker 1: will give you two or three weeks to think about
Speaker 1: if it's okay or if it's not okay, just think
Speaker 1: about it. But with him, he would rather like to
Speaker 1: have it yesterday then tomorrow. And then he's bombing you
Speaker 1: and he's calling you all the time constantly and constantly
Speaker 1: to push you so far that you don't even got
Speaker 1: the time to think about anything, just to think rationally.
Speaker 1: And that's the biggest problem with this type of frauds.
Speaker 1: That you're in a state of mind and you want
Speaker 1: to help someone, but if they are really in need
Speaker 1: and they are shouting at you that they are in
Speaker 1: a very dangerous situation, yes, of course you're going to
Speaker 1: arrange the money. What I'm hearing from you is that
Speaker 1: that sense of urgency and danger if I don't get
Speaker 1: this and he's telling you something terrible is going to happen, right,
Speaker 1: So you feel this empathy, but you also have this awareness.
Speaker 1: This is a lot of money. But how do you
Speaker 1: think all of that, that sense of this is dangerous,
Speaker 1: this has to happen quickly, or something terrible is going
Speaker 1: to happen. How do you think that blocked you from
Speaker 1: seeing the red flags, seeing the deception. Everything went so
Speaker 1: fast I cannot even call it a roller coaster, but
Speaker 1: I think I was in twenty five roller coasters at
Speaker 1: that moment. Yes, every time there's a different story, every
Speaker 1: time there's a different operation, every time he's in need,
Speaker 1: there is something happened, a death threat, something which can
Speaker 1: maybe even affect me or my family. And with these
Speaker 1: type of things, you really feel sorry for someone, but
Speaker 1: you also want to protect yourself as well. In a way,
Speaker 1: it seems like part of how he was sort of
Speaker 1: selling the story was he had images showing sort of
Speaker 1: past episodes of things that look like danger and violence.
Speaker 1: The story was somewhat believable, but then he really used
Speaker 1: that idea of time urgency, yes to pressure you. It
Speaker 1: reminds me of people who are thinking of making a
Speaker 1: major purchase and the salesperson is pressurely. If you don't
Speaker 1: buy it now, you're never going to get it. If
Speaker 1: you don't buy now, the price is going to go
Speaker 1: away in half an hour. And that's not exactly the
Speaker 1: conditions under which to make a great decision. But it's
Speaker 1: not like you were trying to buy a car. You're
Speaker 1: in a relationship with somebody and being intensely pressured. When
Speaker 1: you would call him out on that intensity, saying you've
Speaker 1: got to slow down, or this is too quick, or
Speaker 1: I need to think about this, what would happen? Then
Speaker 1: he got angry. You are ruling this. You are the
Speaker 1: one who is blowing everything up because I need the
Speaker 1: money now. I cannot wait because then this will happen,
Speaker 1: or this will happen, or I will die, or I
Speaker 1: will lose everything, or you will lose me, or I'm
Speaker 1: going to kill myself. And that one was like the
Speaker 1: worst of course, because you love someone right here, This
Speaker 1: is a great example of the escalated manipulation a narcissistic
Speaker 1: person will use in a relationship to get what they
Speaker 1: need or get what they feel entitled to. Each time
Speaker 1: you may try to set a boundary, they keep leveling
Speaker 1: up the terrible things that will happen if you don't
Speaker 1: give in to them. It became very manipulative. Right, So
Speaker 1: you are being reasonable, you're asking something reasonable, I need
Speaker 1: a minute, I need to think about this. This is
Speaker 1: a lot of money. And the manipulation was it sounded
Speaker 1: like he almost doubted your commitment to the relationship. Oh,
Speaker 1: you must not care very much about me if you
Speaker 1: have to think about it and I'm about to die.
Speaker 1: I think it's so easy for people to look at
Speaker 1: the story from the outside and said I would have
Speaker 1: just said no. But if you care about someone and
Speaker 1: you truly believe this much harm is going to come,
Speaker 1: or they even say they're going to harm themselves, and
Speaker 1: your commitment is being doubted, you're so confused at that
Speaker 1: point to show your commitment, you then end up doing
Speaker 1: the thing that you're uncomfortable with. In essence, he's playing
Speaker 1: with this idea of consent. You really weren't consenting to
Speaker 1: give the money. You were being coerced to give the money.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a there's absolutely, Eileen, that's a
Speaker 1: really classical example of gaslighting. You know, people don't understand
Speaker 1: gas lighting. We always say it's like, oh, that never happened.
Speaker 1: We keep it simple. But what he was doing was
Speaker 1: he was testing your commitment, and while in your heart
Speaker 1: you were clearly committed, he was using that as a
Speaker 1: way to manipulate you. Yes, Oh, if you're really cared
Speaker 1: about me, then you'd give me the money. Then, if
Speaker 1: you really wanted this relationship, you'd give me the money then,
Speaker 1: and you know I'm going to pay you back. And
Speaker 1: since he had a track record in the history of
Speaker 1: paying you back from time to time, it was believable. Yes, correct, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because he did pay me back sometimes. And also people
Speaker 1: don't understand because I think I did maybe over twenty
Speaker 1: five transactions to him, and yes, he did pay me
Speaker 1: back sometimes, so you always have the feeling that it
Speaker 1: will be okay, there's no doubt because he already paid
Speaker 1: me back a few of those times. So it feels
Speaker 1: like love bombing for him. And this is the case
Speaker 1: with any kind of you know, con man, is that
Speaker 1: it's an indoctrination period, like a grooming period, where they
Speaker 1: determine is this going to be a a useful person
Speaker 1: to me? Can I get what I want from this person?
Speaker 1: That's what he was in probably the first few times
Speaker 1: he'd ask you for money to see if you'd say yes,
Speaker 1: he'd pay you back, because for him, that was him
Speaker 1: testing the waters. And then once he could see that
Speaker 1: I'm able to sell her the idea that, oh, if
Speaker 1: you care for me, you give me the money, then
Speaker 1: he knew he had you, and then he would keep
Speaker 1: that game going. And that that's every person who's like
Speaker 1: him narcissistic in that way. They will always take advantage
Speaker 1: and weaponize the other person's empathy. It's the most classical dynamic.
Speaker 1: Once they see empathy, they don't see this, Oh, this
Speaker 1: is lovely, this is loving How fortunate I am? They say,
Speaker 1: ah ha ha he there's a point. It's almost like
Speaker 1: a little crack in a window. Here's where I can
Speaker 1: break into this house and steal their things. It has
Speaker 1: that feel to it. Yes, yes, And I think with
Speaker 1: narcissistic people they only care about themselves because, for example,
Speaker 1: at the end of everything, I was in such a
Speaker 1: bad place. I was in debt, I lost a lot
Speaker 1: of my money, I almost lost my house. But even
Speaker 1: his problems were worse than mine. Of course, that ability
Speaker 1: for the narcissistic person to play the victim is a
Speaker 1: very classical element of that personality style. Yes, their problems
Speaker 1: are always the worst problems, always, and it's never them,
Speaker 1: It's always, you know, it's always someone else's fault. There's
Speaker 1: no capacity for taking that kind of responsibility. And it's
Speaker 1: interesting because you said with someone narcissistic like him, it's
Speaker 1: always about them, because beyond that here, for persons that's selfish,
Speaker 1: it's always about them. That's unpleasant enough. But then in
Speaker 1: the process of everything being about them, they feel they
Speaker 1: need to destroy other people because there's absolutely no awareness
Speaker 1: that what they're doing is harming the other people. There's
Speaker 1: literally it's actually quite unsettling to recognize that somebody was
Speaker 1: that unaware of the toll that they were taking on you,
Speaker 1: of the harm they were putting on you. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: because for example you you can see it as well
Speaker 1: in the documentary, like in the end where I already
Speaker 1: knew that I got defrauded and I just wanted to
Speaker 1: play a bit with him. It was a bit of
Speaker 1: my revenge. You could see that I almost lost my
Speaker 1: house and I lost already over one forty now it's
Speaker 1: up more, but a lot of money. And he felt
Speaker 1: bad for himself because he needed to sleep in a hostel.
Speaker 1: So in a way, he's always like and he's always
Speaker 1: putting it on me, And that was my fault, That
Speaker 1: was my mistake because I didn't send him any more money,
Speaker 1: and that and that's how it's always always framed. I
Speaker 1: want to go back to something we're talking about, this
Speaker 1: idea of how he used fear to motivate you to
Speaker 1: give him money. Something bad is going to happen to him,
Speaker 1: or he would do something bad to himself, or even
Speaker 1: something bad could happen to you or your family. Right,
Speaker 1: So he really really used fear. When somebody uses fear
Speaker 1: the way he did, right, not only did you love
Speaker 1: him and care about him, so obviously you didn't want
Speaker 1: anything bad to happen to him. But as you would say,
Speaker 1: I need a moment, I need to think on this.
Speaker 1: He yell at you and scream at you. The thing
Speaker 1: I want to understand is, did you ever have a moment, Eileen,
Speaker 1: where you thought, I'm not sure you know if this
Speaker 1: is the right thing to give him the money. But
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong and something terrible happens to him, I'll
Speaker 1: feel bad for the rest of my life. Yes, of course,
Speaker 1: because if someone is using enemies and life threats as
Speaker 1: a weapon, and you actually see, like from the movie
Speaker 1: as well the pictures that he's sending you, that he
Speaker 1: got it dapped, so in a way it's getting real. Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, yeah, yeah, the situation was real, and that's
Speaker 1: how he pretended to be. But so you also know
Speaker 1: deep down that if something would happen to him, that
Speaker 1: you can never regret yourself. Narcissistic relationships are like a
Speaker 1: series of bets you make. If I do that, then
Speaker 1: they do that, and then I will stay. The relationship
Speaker 1: is a series of perpetual tests and deals with the devil.
Speaker 1: I wondered, Eileen, as I've learned about your story as
Speaker 1: I'm talking to you, is that there's this strange point
Speaker 1: you hit where having to live in fear that maybe
Speaker 1: you did the wrong thing would actually be worse than
Speaker 1: losing the money. Yes, absolutely, because in a way you
Speaker 1: can always say like, oh, it's just money, but if
Speaker 1: his life is on the line, then it's a human being,
Speaker 1: it's a life. And that's where his manipulation was so powerful, right,
Speaker 1: because you really had to sit with that possibility of regret.
Speaker 1: Nobody likes that. That's a real huge fear for people,
Speaker 1: is regret, What if I do the wrong thing? And
Speaker 1: as you said, it's in the grand scheme of things,
Speaker 1: especially when you love somebody, it's only money, and if
Speaker 1: this stops him from getting hurt. He really had you
Speaker 1: convinced that as long as you give me this money,
Speaker 1: I can be protected, and so you wouldn't have to
Speaker 1: live again with that regret. So that was a deeply,
Speaker 1: deeply manipulative thing for him to do. It was obviously
Speaker 1: a sort of a technique he had used with many people,
Speaker 1: and he saw that it work. He took advantage of
Speaker 1: the empathy, he took advantage of the love. He'd know
Speaker 1: that nobody wants to be responsible for harm or death
Speaker 1: of another person. He'd use that to extract the money
Speaker 1: from a person, and then when things did happen fast enough,
Speaker 1: he'd start yelling and screaming, knowing that that kind of
Speaker 1: rage is also frightening for people. Yes, yes, absolutely, my
Speaker 1: session with Eileen will continue after this break. So let's
Speaker 1: talk about something called trauma bonding. It's how a person
Speaker 1: gets stuck in a really toxic relationship cycle. A central
Speaker 1: issue in the trauma bonded relationship is that a person
Speaker 1: is in a relationship that keeps going from great too bad,
Speaker 1: too great, too bad, arguing to happy arguing to great day,
Speaker 1: and that back and forth is what keeps a person
Speaker 1: stuck because they keep waiting for the next good day.
Speaker 1: And even when there's five bad days, six bad days,
Speaker 1: there's enough good days to say, well, I'm really going
Speaker 1: to hold up for the good day now. It's almost
Speaker 1: you know when you go to a casino and you
Speaker 1: play that machine, pull the handle, you put in the money,
Speaker 1: and you know sometimes you get that money prize. It's
Speaker 1: like that because and even if ten times you put
Speaker 1: in the money nothing comes out, then you think, Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe this time I'm gonna get so much money, maybe
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a good day. I think it's just
Speaker 1: so important to reflect on that trauma bonded idea. So
Speaker 1: what we're seeing here, because this pattern between Eileen and
Speaker 1: Simon was both trauma bonded but also kind of quite simple,
Speaker 1: it makes it even more difficult. If he got the
Speaker 1: money when and how he wanted it, they had a
Speaker 1: great day. He told her he loved her, he made
Speaker 1: big promises. If he didn't get the money, it was
Speaker 1: all anger and rage and threats. That back and force.
Speaker 1: That promise of a good day is what keeps people
Speaker 1: stuck in toxic relationships just for a brief moment. I mean,
Speaker 1: what was your when you were growing up in childhood?
Speaker 1: What was your family life like? Like? What was your
Speaker 1: parents marriage? Like? My parents marriage was really great. They
Speaker 1: grew up in a very loving family. I had child
Speaker 1: and my parents are already together for over fifty years.
Speaker 1: Now wow, wow, that's okay. So now you just throw
Speaker 1: me a curveball, girl, and I'll tell you why. This
Speaker 1: is why your story is so amazing, Hili. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I think the story has sort of been mistold,
Speaker 1: like for oh, she gave her money away. But there's
Speaker 1: so much power to your story because here you were,
Speaker 1: you grew up. You kind of defy the stereotype. Right,
Speaker 1: we always think, oh, the person who's going to fall
Speaker 1: for someone like Simon is going to have a terrible childhood.
Speaker 1: Their parents had a terrible marriage and they had a
Speaker 1: terrible father, so they go with this bad guy. You're saying,
Speaker 1: that's not it at all, right, your parents had a
Speaker 1: loving marriage, for that's lasted a long time because it's
Speaker 1: a loving marriage. You felt loved as a child, so
Speaker 1: you actually believed in love and right and I so
Speaker 1: the trauma pouting for you was interesting because we often
Speaker 1: think of it as historical in a person's life. They
Speaker 1: had this sort of difficult relationship with their parents, so
Speaker 1: they reproduce, recreate that relationship and adulthood. That wasn't your story,
Speaker 1: not yours. Was you believed in love? Yes? And I
Speaker 1: was looking for love as well, and I'm still looking
Speaker 1: for love and I don't think that's a bad thing.
Speaker 1: But what is not really told well in the documentary
Speaker 1: is eight years ago now, I um, I was in
Speaker 1: a very terrible accident. I got robbed by two guys
Speaker 1: and beaten up very bad. So sorry, yeah, and I
Speaker 1: got PTSD from that. And the worst thing of the
Speaker 1: situation with Simon is that he triggered back the pts
Speaker 1: D because he knew about it. He knew that I
Speaker 1: was scared to be followed, he knew that I was
Speaker 1: scared to be alone in the streets at night, and
Speaker 1: he used that to trigger back the PTSD. And in
Speaker 1: a way, because the PTSD got back, he put me
Speaker 1: in a sort of state of mind which it's not
Speaker 1: you because, for example, if I look back on all
Speaker 1: the worstep messages right now, three years four years later,
Speaker 1: I feel so stupid. But back then I was in
Speaker 1: a state of mind which it wasn't me, And especially
Speaker 1: because he brought back to PTSD. For example, he knew
Speaker 1: that I was scared to be followed, and every time
Speaker 1: when I saw someone behind me, I was always a
Speaker 1: bit nervous when someone was behind me very close. And
Speaker 1: at a certain point, he was living at my house
Speaker 1: and we were driving home and we came into the
Speaker 1: street of my house and he said, please check every car,
Speaker 1: please check, Please drive three rounds through the street to
Speaker 1: check if we're not followed. And with those type of things,
Speaker 1: he brought back the PTSD. And I think that's the
Speaker 1: worst thing he did to me. First of all, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry. Thank you, thank you for sharing that story,
Speaker 1: because you you bring up something so important here, Eileen,
Speaker 1: which is you had had this, this this history of trauma, right,
Speaker 1: and that this kind of a toxic relationship, narcissistic relationship
Speaker 1: can actually reactivate all of that. So, like you may
Speaker 1: have worked through that trauma, but trauma is a funny thing.
Speaker 1: It sits in our bodies, it sits in our minds.
Speaker 1: It's still they can be reactivated, right, It's always it's
Speaker 1: all and in some ways it always is going to
Speaker 1: be there. But as you get away from this kind
Speaker 1: of a toxic experience, you might feel like you have
Speaker 1: more tools to cope with it. So Eileen's talking about
Speaker 1: trauma here, and I want to go deeper into this.
Speaker 1: Post traumatic discomfort can be activated when we experience anything
Speaker 1: that was similar to earlier in past traumas we've experienced.
Speaker 1: In Eileen's case, being followed or being reminded of being
Speaker 1: followed really brought up those old traumatic experiences for her.
Speaker 1: When that traumatic experience is triggered, any of us would
Speaker 1: feel anxious, on edge, and even panicky. And the horror
Speaker 1: of severe narcissistic relationships is that they have no problem
Speaker 1: using your own trauma as a tool of manipulation to
Speaker 1: get what they want. When somebody is invalidating you and
Speaker 1: manipulating you, and more than anything, leaving you feeling scared,
Speaker 1: all of that is going to come back in a flood.
Speaker 1: If you talk to any trauma survivor that could have
Speaker 1: happened to them twenty years ago, they could be having
Speaker 1: an experience now and saying, I'm feeling all of this
Speaker 1: familiar your stuff, like I don't even feel like i'm
Speaker 1: myself now. What's so awful and terrible to hear about
Speaker 1: in your story, is that not only did he weaponize
Speaker 1: your empathy, you're a loving person, You cared about him,
Speaker 1: you didn't want him to suffer, You gave him your money.
Speaker 1: The part to me that's beyond unforgivable is that he
Speaker 1: weaponized your own history of trauma. And that to me,
Speaker 1: is such a horrible thing to do to a person
Speaker 1: because it really becomes such a place you know you
Speaker 1: can control them. And this goes back to this, we'll
Speaker 1: have to think about love bombing in a different way.
Speaker 1: As he got to know you and learned about you
Speaker 1: and was so interested in you, that's how he learned
Speaker 1: about your history. And learning those things about your history,
Speaker 1: he thought, ah, I can actually get a response, I
Speaker 1: can get what I want if I bring up this
Speaker 1: part of her past. And he used that to throw
Speaker 1: you off balance and make you more mini relatable. Interestingly, Eileen,
Speaker 1: that's not a crime. But in the psychological court I
Speaker 1: live in, you better believe that feels like a crime
Speaker 1: to me. Yes, absolutely, And the worst part is that
Speaker 1: it can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, correct,
Speaker 1: But he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did.
Speaker 1: And that's even way worse than the money you took.
Speaker 1: So in this next session, I lean we're going to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how you found him out, basically,
Speaker 1: how you figured it out. So tell us because this
Speaker 1: is I mean, like I said, you are, you are
Speaker 1: a rock star in my eyes. I will tell you.
Speaker 1: I watched it. I was like, Oh, this girl has
Speaker 1: got it going on. You are more courageous than I.
Speaker 1: And I say that with the utmost of respect. Clever, courageous,
Speaker 1: and I really want you to share with us about
Speaker 1: how you found out about who he really was and
Speaker 1: how that led you to put all of the pieces
Speaker 1: together as well. Thank you so much for the compliment,
Speaker 1: because it's the best thing that I can hear from
Speaker 1: my action. I was at the airport and Prague where
Speaker 1: I was actually with him, and he just dropped me
Speaker 1: off at the airport and I opened up my Instagram
Speaker 1: and I saw his face coming up on my feet
Speaker 1: and I clicked on it, and there I saw this
Speaker 1: whole article from a Norwegian newspaper with two girls in it,
Speaker 1: better known as Nila and Cecily, and they were talking
Speaker 1: about Simon and his actions, what he did to them.
Speaker 1: He defrauded them for a lot of money, and while
Speaker 1: I was reading the article, I immediately knew because everything
Speaker 1: was so similar to my story. I immediately knew that
Speaker 1: the story was the girls put out there was true.
Speaker 1: And still I don't know what I was thinking, because
Speaker 1: I was still in contact with Simon and he just
Speaker 1: dropped me off. So he started calling me and I
Speaker 1: send it over. I sent over the article and I said,
Speaker 1: what's this because I just read it on Instagram. And
Speaker 1: then first he started to scream at me, like how
Speaker 1: did you get this? And I was just it just
Speaker 1: popped up on my Instagram. And then he said, no,
Speaker 1: it's not true. My enemies are paying these girls. And
Speaker 1: then I started to realize immediately that his enemies were
Speaker 1: the girls and the people who he defrauded. And that's
Speaker 1: when the ball started rolling and I started to contacting
Speaker 1: people under a false identity to see because yes, he
Speaker 1: made me scared of my life as well. He knew
Speaker 1: where I live, you know where my parents lived, he
Speaker 1: knew where I worked, so in a way, I was
Speaker 1: still scared of my life, but I needed to have
Speaker 1: like some sort of truth and more proof that he
Speaker 1: was a fraud. So I started to contact people and
Speaker 1: after I knew. I went to the police, and then
Speaker 1: the police said, we cannot do anything for you right now.
Speaker 1: And I was in a very difficult situation because I
Speaker 1: lost so much money. So here's a chance to go
Speaker 1: deep on gaslighting. The most sure fire way to break
Speaker 1: through gas lighting is when other people see what we
Speaker 1: see or experience what we experience. Even in the classical
Speaker 1: film Gaslight, what saves her is one other person seeing
Speaker 1: what she is going through and helping her feel less insane.
Speaker 1: Once II Leen was able to start putting the puzzle
Speaker 1: pieces to get other and recognized that she wasn't alone,
Speaker 1: she was able to take action and save herself. People
Speaker 1: in narcissistic relationships can easily become isolated and stuck in
Speaker 1: the narcissists version of reality, and that can be dangerous.
Speaker 1: So I made him a suggestion, and I said, well,
Speaker 1: I don't have any more money anymore, but maybe you
Speaker 1: can give me your clothes, because I knew every time
Speaker 1: when I was with him, he was wearing the newest
Speaker 1: collections of all the big brands like Gucci for sach Cabana,
Speaker 1: and every time it was like the latest collection, and
Speaker 1: I couldn't figure it out why that was. But then
Speaker 1: I understood that all of these things he bought with
Speaker 1: my money. It's exactly right, it's yours. Yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 1: it was mine. Everything what he was wearing was from me.
Speaker 1: I suggested him to give the clothes to me because
Speaker 1: he was still in hiding and he wanted to be undetected.
Speaker 1: So then I said, I can sell your clothes for you,
Speaker 1: and that's what I did. Good for you. Well I
Speaker 1: didn't sell it for him, right, Well, you got the money.
Speaker 1: Now I want to come back to how you kept
Speaker 1: getting revenge on him. But before I get to that,
Speaker 1: when Eileen, did you start identifying Simon's patterns as narcissistic?
Speaker 1: How long did it take you to get there? I
Speaker 1: think when I really actually saw a pattern was when
Speaker 1: I had the clothes in my house and I didn't
Speaker 1: send him the money. That was the moment when I
Speaker 1: saw the back and forth between his personalities. That's so
Speaker 1: interesting because you know what's fascinating, and again such a
Speaker 1: classical part of these stories is people say, Dr Revenie,
Speaker 1: tell me how I could identify narcissist right away, and
Speaker 1: I'll say, oh, it's gonna take a minute for you.
Speaker 1: It took almost the entire course of the relationship. Then
Speaker 1: when it was clear, it was clear and you couldn't
Speaker 1: unsee it. But it takes a minute, right, if somebody's
Speaker 1: being charming and interested and interesting and nice and and
Speaker 1: all of these things, you're not sort of going through
Speaker 1: head saying well, let me look for the narcissistic pattern,
Speaker 1: just saying I'm in front of a nice person. And
Speaker 1: despite even the back and forth and the money and
Speaker 1: the confusion, it was only then when you had the
Speaker 1: clothes and you really saw it very quickly, how he
Speaker 1: flipped between the good simon bad Simon good Simon bad Simon,
Speaker 1: that it became clear. And I think it's important for
Speaker 1: people to know that sometimes the stuff, even with somebody
Speaker 1: who is as big as a scammer and a manipulator
Speaker 1: as he is, it took a minute to figure that out.
Speaker 1: And a lot of people say, why didn't I see
Speaker 1: it sooner? Why didn't I see it sooner? And they
Speaker 1: get angry at themselves because it takes a minute. Just
Speaker 1: so people could be kinder to themselves. It's important to
Speaker 1: know that when I found out that he was a fraud,
Speaker 1: I think it took me like one and a half
Speaker 1: week to actually land and know that the fraud was real,
Speaker 1: but to see the patterns of his narcissistic personalities that
Speaker 1: took me a bit longer. Yeah. You know what's interesting, though, Eileen,
Speaker 1: is that you did get some justice. You know, even
Speaker 1: though he only did five months of a longer sentence,
Speaker 1: there was some justice, right. Most people who go through
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationships get no justice, right. The person just goes it,
Speaker 1: gets to go off and go off into the sunset.
Speaker 1: And really that's actually everybody who ever came before you
Speaker 1: in Simon's life had that experience of no justice. I
Speaker 1: think we could maybe make an argument that this is
Speaker 1: maybe a half justice, right, because you're still carrying the
Speaker 1: wounds and the pain of having gone through that kind
Speaker 1: of manipulation and psychological abuse. Yes, absolutely, I will never
Speaker 1: get the justice for the mental part. The only thing
Speaker 1: that I can do is make the best out of
Speaker 1: it and be as strong as I am and just
Speaker 1: move forward and just move along as well, and to
Speaker 1: get over it. I think what's amazing is that you know,
Speaker 1: you shared your own trauma history. How he pretty much
Speaker 1: used that trauma history against you to draw more money
Speaker 1: out of you. Two because he created such a sense
Speaker 1: of fear. That's why I really want to speak up,
Speaker 1: because I know that a lot of women but also
Speaker 1: men of course, in these type of situations, in this
Speaker 1: type of relationships, if they don't see a way out,
Speaker 1: it can be so much worse because there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people who don't want to speak up, don't
Speaker 1: want to tell their friends, or don't want to tell
Speaker 1: their family. When you are in this type of situations,
Speaker 1: a lot of people will isolate themselves because of the shame,
Speaker 1: because of the hurt as well, and the moment you
Speaker 1: get isolated, it will only get worse because then you
Speaker 1: are still alone with your thoughts. No one is around
Speaker 1: you to help you, to support you, to be there
Speaker 1: for you. And that's why I really want to speak up,
Speaker 1: because I think that it's important to tell get like
Speaker 1: maybe one or two people in your friends or maybe family,
Speaker 1: where you are going to tell your story, because without
Speaker 1: any people around you cannot survive. Narcissistic abuse thrives in isolation.
Speaker 1: Many survivors become isolated by shame, fear, and by the
Speaker 1: narcissist themselves. Hearing these stories and sharing these stories is
Speaker 1: the only way for survivors to break through this shame
Speaker 1: and recognize that talking about it is a key to
Speaker 1: surviving these relationships. Did you ever ask your family or
Speaker 1: friends for help. Yes, the moment when I found out,
Speaker 1: I immediately talk to my mother and I went to
Speaker 1: see some of my friends, a few of them, and
Speaker 1: I told them my and from that moment on, they
Speaker 1: were so supportive because I was isolating myself. I didn't
Speaker 1: go out for dinner because I didn't have any money.
Speaker 1: I didn't go to birthday parties because I couldn't afford
Speaker 1: a gift. I didn't do that already for more than
Speaker 1: a year because I couldn't afford it. Yeah, so I
Speaker 1: also had the feeling that I had to tell them
Speaker 1: because I didn't want to lie to them anymore, because
Speaker 1: it felt like a lie every time I needed to
Speaker 1: make up excuses for not going somewhere, And that heard
Speaker 1: me the most, because I was lying to the people
Speaker 1: who do love me. It's like you feel like you're
Speaker 1: being punished twice. Not only did you go through the relationship,
Speaker 1: but now you don't even feel you can be open
Speaker 1: and honest with the people you care about. So I
Speaker 1: think it's incredibly important to push back to that shame.
Speaker 1: You didn't do anything wrong. We will be right back
Speaker 1: with this conversation with Eileen. You know again I lean
Speaker 1: your story. It played out throughout the world. The world
Speaker 1: had so many reactions to it. As me, as a
Speaker 1: person who studies narcissistic abuse, who works with survivors of it,
Speaker 1: I see it as stories of narcissistic abuse aren't as
Speaker 1: simple as we like. You came from a very happy family.
Speaker 1: You simply believed in love. Somebody took advantage not only
Speaker 1: your empathy but your trauma. However, so many times we
Speaker 1: think of survivors of narcissistic abuse is very passive, and
Speaker 1: you showed how actually active and how much of a
Speaker 1: agent in your own destiny that you really really were
Speaker 1: to this day and in your own healing. So what's
Speaker 1: next for you? It's so important for people to hear
Speaker 1: that no matter how bad a story someone goes through,
Speaker 1: there's something to be learned and there's often something to
Speaker 1: be paid forward to other people. I am talking to
Speaker 1: publishers right now to write a book because I really
Speaker 1: think that my experience again can help people absolutely get out.
Speaker 1: And then I thought, okay, and what do I want
Speaker 1: to do more because I cannot sit still. And then
Speaker 1: I thought, what do I really like? And that's drinking wine? Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: And so you're building a business around that. Yes, I'm
Speaker 1: starting to create my own wine brands. Oh great. I
Speaker 1: hope it has the words of survivor or fighter or
Speaker 1: something like that in there, because I have to say
Speaker 1: so many times. As a person comes through a survivorship
Speaker 1: story and recognizes that they came out the other side,
Speaker 1: that's when you realize it's time for me to start
Speaker 1: enacting my dreams. Because if I could come through that
Speaker 1: and still retain my sense of who I am, then
Speaker 1: this guy is the limit. And I have no doubt
Speaker 1: love will come flowing into your life because I think
Speaker 1: for many people, once they get themselves to such a
Speaker 1: good place in themselves and wiser from going through one
Speaker 1: of these relationships, you're actually in a magnificent position to
Speaker 1: welcome healthy love into your life, but also be able
Speaker 1: to call those red flags out early and say, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: you might have been nice to me, but you yelled
Speaker 1: at me, and yelling at me it's just not gonna work.
Speaker 1: By yes, absolutely, I already experienced it in the past
Speaker 1: three years because yes, I am dating, but now if
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel good, I'm just The first thing I
Speaker 1: would say is by good for you. Yeah, and unfortunately
Speaker 1: I had to go through this to see it now.
Speaker 1: But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Correct. My
Speaker 1: hope is that people will see your story, and for
Speaker 1: some people, they'll see your story and that will be
Speaker 1: enough to stop them from actually feeling that they have
Speaker 1: to give in the first place, and say, oh, actually,
Speaker 1: I can set a boundary because now it's very clear
Speaker 1: to me that even with someone incredibly wise and smart
Speaker 1: like yourself, that this can happen. So I think that's
Speaker 1: where these stories become really important to share. Yes. Absolutely, Also,
Speaker 1: the word just came out, but the CEO, the real
Speaker 1: CEO of LD Diamonds, check Levia, the daughter of Lef Levi,
Speaker 1: if she has reached out to us after the documentary
Speaker 1: came out and we started up a collaboration together and
Speaker 1: we're going to release a bracelets. Yes, there are two
Speaker 1: small rings coming together and the bracelet is called Stronger
Speaker 1: Together because as the group we are stronger Together. I
Speaker 1: love there are two small diamonds in it as well.
Speaker 1: I love that idea stronger Together and get some diamonds
Speaker 1: in there to sort of stick it to the diamond
Speaker 1: King and the King of diamonds, because really, you're the
Speaker 1: Queen of diamonds, my dear. What's so striking to me
Speaker 1: about how ei Leaned story was told was that it
Speaker 1: actually ended up with the world trying to find ways
Speaker 1: to demonize her and the other women who are harmed
Speaker 1: by Simon. People were characterizing them as gold ors, are
Speaker 1: foolish or naive. This was a big public story, but
Speaker 1: the kinds of things that happened to Eileen happened to
Speaker 1: people in narcissistic relationships all the time. People say to
Speaker 1: them things like didn't you see this coming? Or why
Speaker 1: didn't you just leave? Or there's two sides to every story.
Speaker 1: When we invalidate the survivors of these stories, we give
Speaker 1: the narcissists a free pass, and then it emboldens other
Speaker 1: toxic people and leaves the people harmed by these relationships
Speaker 1: less likely to seek out help or talk about what happened.
Speaker 1: We have to stop glorifying the narcissists. I know that
Speaker 1: everyone might like to think that they would be too
Speaker 1: smart to fall for a grifter like Simon, but I
Speaker 1: have to tell you, while most of the people I
Speaker 1: work with won't get their stories on TV, all narcissistic
Speaker 1: relationships are a hustle and if you think you aren't vulnerable,
Speaker 1: then you may be the most vulnerable one of all.
Speaker 1: Be careful. That was a great conversation with Eileen, and
Speaker 1: here's some takeaways based on the many things that we
Speaker 1: talked about. First, narcissistic and toxic people really do use
Speaker 1: urgency and time to force you to make uncomfortable choices,
Speaker 1: and if you hesitate, they frame it as you not
Speaker 1: caring or being committed. Just like when someone is trying
Speaker 1: to sell you something or make a bad deal in
Speaker 1: a rush. When there is this sense of urgency that
Speaker 1: should be assigned to slow down, and if they decide
Speaker 1: to leave the relationship, then it was probably a hustle.
Speaker 1: The best prevention and survival tool and gas lighted and
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationships is to avoid getting isolated. That can be
Speaker 1: hard to do, but cultivate friendships and other close relationships
Speaker 1: so you have another glimpse into reality. As Eileen said,
Speaker 1: without any people around you, you cannot survive. As our
Speaker 1: third takeaway today, I gotta remember that Narcissistic relationships really
Speaker 1: are a process of indoctrination. There are enough good days
Speaker 1: and things that make sense in the relationship that we
Speaker 1: keep getting pulled in. Listen, nobody asks you for money
Speaker 1: on your first date. It takes a minute to identify
Speaker 1: these patterns, and that's why it's so important in any
Speaker 1: relationship that you take your time journal any red flags
Speaker 1: that you observe, and the first time the relationship really
Speaker 1: feels uncomfortable, wait a minute and talk it out with
Speaker 1: people that you trust. Thank you so much for listening. Lastly,
Speaker 1: make sure you subscribe on I Heart Radio and please
Speaker 1: rate this podcast on Apple Podcasts. This show was produced
Speaker 1: by executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith Fallon, Jethro Ellen Rakaton,
Speaker 1: and Dr rominey der Vassila, Also producer Matthew Jones, Associate
Speaker 1: producer Maura Della Rosa, and our editors and sound engineers
Speaker 1: Devin Donnahy and Calvin Bailiff.