1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 2: Let me tell you we have a new star. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 3: A star is born Elan mars Jusan Kennemy. He is 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 3: the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. Probably 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 3: his whole life is from a position of insecurity. I 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 3: feel for the guy. I would say ninety eight percent 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 3: really appreciate what he does. But those two percent. 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: That are nasty, they are our pay in full folds. 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: We were meant for great things in the United States 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: of America, and Elon reminds us of that. 11 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 3: I'm very disappointed in Elan. 12 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: I've helped Elon a lot. 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: Hey, David Papadoppolis here, host of Elan Inc. So today 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 2: we've got the last installment of our summer Jealousy series 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: and we're going out with a bang. Elon ink Stallwart. 16 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: Denni Hall interviewed Kirsten gra The New York Times about 17 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 2: the great piece that she co bylined back in the 18 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: spring on Musk's growing drug habit on the campaign trail 19 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 2: last year. Now there was, Kirsten reported lots of ketamine, ecstasy, 20 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 2: shrooms and a daily medication box stuffed with all sorts 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 2: of pills. Now we should note, Musk has maintained in 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 2: the past that beyond a medical prescription for ketamine, he 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: doesn't enjoy recreational drugs, and then after The Times ran 24 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: its story, he posted on social media that he does 25 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: not use drugs. Okay, let's dive in enjoy the interview. 26 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: Well, Kirsten, thank you so much for joining us. Again. 27 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: We have this thing here at Bloomberg called the Jealousy List, where, 28 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: you know, we periodically talk about all the great investigative 29 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: stories and features that we wish that we ourselves had landed. 30 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: And of course, whenever I see your byline, my heart 31 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: goes into my throat because I'm like, what does she 32 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: have this time? And then lo and behold in may 33 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: I wake up and I see your piece about Elon 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: Musk and kennemine use and psychedelic mushrooms and allegations that 35 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: he was using these drugs while he was on the 36 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: campaign trail for President Trump. And I guess my first 37 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: question is your brand as a journalist is kind of 38 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: about being the drug reporter of Silicon Valley. Could you 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: talk a bit about how that came to be. I 40 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: know you wrote a previous book about the former CEO 41 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: of Zappos. But how did drug use in Silicon Valley 42 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: become your specialty? 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Dana, and 44 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 3: I love that question for sure. I like to joke 45 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 3: that if you're doing drugs in Silicon Valley, I will 46 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: find you. It's funny I got on that coverage area. 47 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 3: You know, it actually really started by covering billionaires and 48 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 3: the wealthy, because those, unfortunately or fortunately, I guess, go 49 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 3: kind of hand in hand. Before I was at the 50 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 3: New York Times, I was at the Wall Street Journal, 51 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 3: and there I covered, as you mentioned, the entrepreneur Tony Shea, 52 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 3: who was the big Las Vegas developer and CEO of Zappos, 53 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: and he had a very big ketamine problem that went 54 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 3: untreated and unfortunately died very young. And then from there, 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember, when the tech executive 56 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: Bob Lee died on the streets of San Francisco. So 57 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 3: my colleagues at the Journal and I jumped in there, 58 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: and again, drugs ended up being a big part of 59 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 3: that story, and he was involved in this kind of 60 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 3: underground drug world. And so I have just kind of 61 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 3: accumulated I guess you could say a lot of sources 62 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 3: and people who know a lot about like the drug 63 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 3: scene and the party scene here in Silicon Valley and elsewhere. 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 3: And it's funny because I am like the most boring 65 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 3: person ever. You know, I have two kids, I live 66 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 3: in a house, Like I am not going out to 67 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 3: these parties. But yeah, I just have sort of landed 68 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 3: on that beat. I guess you could say. 69 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: It's a great beat. I mean, it's the beat that 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: keeps on giving, right, It's definitely. 71 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 3: The beat that keeps on giving for sure. 72 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's interesting too because you know, what I've 73 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: noticed is that, you know, I feel like in New 74 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: York and Washington, DC, a lot of commerce and a 75 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: lot of socializing is very much fueled by alcohol. Then 76 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: I moved to California and I was like, oh, like 77 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: people here don't really seem to drink that much, but whoo, 78 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: there is like a lot of drug use and like 79 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: very casual. And then now it's almost like, you know, 80 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: as the window has moved and like marijuana is more accepted, 81 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: you're seeing people funding psychedelic research and like psychedelic institutes, 82 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: and you know it's like every like just doing psychedelics 83 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: of all kinds is like widely accepted, you know, there's 84 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: burning Man culture, but it's really shifted in a way. 85 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, And actually, I'm glad you brought that up, because 86 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: when I first kind of got into this years ago, 87 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 3: that was one of the most challenging things for me 88 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 3: to figure out was that there were actually two tracks, 89 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 3: especially with psychedelics like ketamine that acts like a psychedelic 90 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: or magic mushrooms or any of the others. Is that 91 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 3: there is a track where there is serious research going 92 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: on and companies studying these drugs to see how they 93 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 3: can help with depression or PTSD, and then there's the 94 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 3: track of here I am at a party taking like 95 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 3: seven tabs of LSD or something like that. Right, So 96 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 3: the problem is in that gray area in between. That's 97 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: the problem you see a lot in Silicon Valley and elsewhere, 98 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 3: is of course everyone out here, right, all these tech 99 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 3: guys think they can disrupt everything, and they want to 100 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 3: also disrupt their health, and so they kind of think 101 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 3: they can medicate themselves a lot of the times. That's 102 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 3: what I saw a lot with Tony Sheah. You know, 103 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 3: he was suffering from depression and other issues, and he thought, well, 104 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 3: I can just treat myself with ketamine, right, And that's 105 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 3: what you continue to see is a lot of people 106 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 3: thinking they can just do it themselves, and really for 107 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 3: that to work, you need to be with a doctor, 108 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 3: you need to be having an administered dose, you need 109 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: to have a prescription, and instead you're kind of getting 110 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 3: people who were not using prescriptions and think they can 111 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 3: solve it themselves. 112 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, So your piece was super interesting because it talked 113 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: about how Musk was not just using ketamine but psychedelic 114 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: mushrooms and ecstasy while he was on the campaign trail 115 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: campaigning for President Trump. And then it said, you know, 116 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: it wasn't clear whether that use continued once he became 117 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: a special government employee with DOGE, but you know, we 118 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: watched him do all kinds of things that seemed bizarre, 119 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: from inauguration to being on the stage at SPA with 120 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: the chainsaw. And what I noticed when I was watching 121 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: that was that Musk was wearing sunglasses. And then I 122 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: went down this rabbit hole of like, is there like 123 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: a link between kettymine use and pupils being dilated and sunglasses? 124 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: And I was just curious if there is, Like, you know, 125 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: I didn't read like all the deep papers, But was 126 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: that a concern that that was a potential sign of 127 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: drug use? 128 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 3: Then, well, people we had talked to had mentioned especially 129 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 3: that Seapack event. So again that's the one where he 130 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 3: kind of came on stage and Javier Malay gave him 131 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: a chainsaw and he was waving it around and talking 132 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: very fast and kind of giggling at odd times and 133 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 3: sometimes slurring his words. So we, of course, my colleague 134 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: Megan Tuey and I were looked into that episode as well, 135 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 3: because people like us were sort of saying, was that 136 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 3: an example of him being on drugs? I will say 137 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 3: I talked to people around that and they didn't notice 138 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: anything out of the ordinary. Behind the scenes. This is 139 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 3: the challenge of covering Elon Musk, as you know, which 140 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 3: is that his baseline, as he himself has said, is 141 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: fairly odd, and he's always been, you know, not a 142 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 3: great public speaker, so it's always a little bit hard 143 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 3: to tell like is this abnormal? And so in this reporting, 144 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 3: including at the drug reporting I did on him with 145 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 3: my colleagues at the Wall Street Journal, we really relied 146 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 3: on others around him to tell us does this seem unusual? 147 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 3: We don't want to be the ones making that determination, obviously, 148 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 3: and so in that Seapac moment, we definitely had people 149 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 3: telling us this seems unusual, he's acting unusual. So that's 150 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 3: as far as we got with that one. 151 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again to your point, like the Overton window 152 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: for what is unusual form Usk is quite wide because 153 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: he has acted unusual in many instances. 154 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 3: Now exactly right, exactly. 155 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: So, Kirsten, my recollection is that your story came out 156 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: on a Friday morning, and then that afternoon, Musk was 157 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: with Trump in the Oval Office kind of having his 158 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: farewell goodbye, and he had a black eye and Trump 159 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: gave him a key, and then he was asked quite 160 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: specifically about your piece. So were you watching that White 161 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: House press conference live? 162 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, we were definitely watching for sure. So that 163 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 3: was like at the end of May. The timing was 164 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: completely coincidental. That was all kind of these stories take 165 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 3: a very long time because we obviously are fact checking 166 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 3: to the eleventh degree, seeking comment all of this going 167 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 3: through our various editors, and so that was going on 168 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 3: at the same time that all of this was kind 169 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 3: of happening in Washington with Musk leaving Washington, and so 170 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 3: basically we learned there was a press conference that day, 171 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 3: and we of course wanted to watch, and I think 172 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 3: it was one of the first questions asked, and Elon 173 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 3: immediately just didn't even let the reporter I, if I recall, 174 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 3: correctly asked the question. He kind of just brushed him 175 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 3: off and then started saying something about this lawsuit involving 176 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: not Elon but the Pulitzer Board and Trump, and it 177 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 3: just he just kind of sides the deflective question. Yeah, 178 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: deflected exactly. And so then Trump later that day was 179 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 3: asked about it. I think as he was he was 180 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: going somewhere and said, oh, Elon's great, I don't really care. 181 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: Nothing he does would bother me. But then what was 182 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 3: interesting about the timing was then over the weekend, as 183 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 3: you know, the whole situation between those two just evolved, 184 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: and suddenly it seemed like the drug issue had been 185 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 3: an issue for Trump that whole time, he just hadn't 186 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 3: said anything about it. 187 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 1: Right, And then it got to the point this was 188 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: like a day that I was actually off of work, 189 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: But that was when they had like the big meltdown 190 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: back and forth, like Trump on truth, Social Musk on X, 191 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: and like Trump does not drink and has always had 192 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: like an issue I think with substance abuse, or at 193 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: least that's my understanding. But did Trump actually say something 194 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: about it. 195 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 3: I don't believe Trump specifically address the drug issue anywhere, 196 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 3: but all of a sudden, all these reports were coming 197 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: out from like the Post and even our reporters here 198 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 3: at the Times were saying that one of the issues 199 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: that led him to kind of part ways with Elon 200 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 3: was this drug issue. Now, I think we still have 201 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 3: no idea what Trump actually knew or saw or or 202 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: was just kind of told. I don't know. I will 203 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 3: say that one thing that makes this reporting, not just 204 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 3: on Elon but drug reporting in general very challenging is 205 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 3: no one is just like at their desk, you know, 206 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 3: snorting cocaine right Like it's this This is all happening 207 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 3: in private, So it's it's very secret. It's not something 208 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 3: that some White House aid is probably gonna have seen 209 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 3: out there. 210 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: Right. It's not like Musk is on Air Force one 211 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: and the concierge doctor like appears at his side like 212 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: buf Fey table of recreational drugs. It's happening privately, but 213 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: word gets around. Yeah, so after the big blow up. 214 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: A lot of the great details in your piece were 215 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: about I mean, I loved the detail about the pillbox 216 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: and someone traveling with his kind of dedicated pillbox and aid. 217 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: Of some kind. 218 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: And then let's talk a little bit about how while 219 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: all this drug use is happening, it's overlapping with this 220 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: just like incredible drama in his personal life with his 221 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: partners and the mothers of his children. I mean, as 222 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: you and I have talked about before, like his obsession 223 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: with fertility and his growing brood. People always ask me 224 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: eternally how many kids does he have? And I always 225 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: say he has fathered fourteen children that we know of. However, 226 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: it sounds it sounds like there's like the Japanese pop 227 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: star and like who knows how many others there are? 228 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: But you know, actually, Saint Clair, I mean, this is 229 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: all happening simultaneously. She's obviously a big magat influencer. So 230 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: I'm curious, have you and Megan were like tracking the 231 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: drug stuff as you learned about the other kids stuff, 232 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: or were you sort of working on both simultaneously, like, 233 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: because it ended up being a really great overlap capturing 234 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: sort of his personal chaos. 235 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, no, thank you. We were definitely hearing kind 236 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 3: of both things, right, And at some point it occurred 237 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 3: to us that these are kind of related and that 238 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 3: it's just the chaos, right, and both of us, me 239 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: and you, we've written about this fertility issue, and you know, 240 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 3: I've written about like this compound he was trying to 241 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 3: do in Texas and all of this, for all these 242 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,839 Speaker 3: kids and the wives and the partners and all of this, 243 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 3: and it's like, at some point, especially when Ashley Saint 244 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 3: Clair revealed herself earlier this year online, that to me 245 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 3: was when I was like, this feels like it's getting 246 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 3: a little out of control for him. It's not just yeah, 247 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: I want to pro create and increase the fertility rates 248 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 3: and I have a couple different partners. This is sort 249 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: of like, oh, there's actually other secret women out there 250 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 3: that we don't know about. And it seemed related to 251 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 3: the intensity of his drug use that we were also 252 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: kind of hearing about, and so that's why we ended 253 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 3: up combining both those things, because his personal life just yeah, 254 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 3: like you said, seemed so chaotic at a time that 255 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: he was really rising to political power that. 256 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: Now he's sort of sensibly left Washington. He is making 257 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: a lot of pronouncements about how he's back focused on 258 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: his companies seven you know, twenty four seven, sleeping at 259 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: the factories, like all in on Tesla and Robotics and 260 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: Starship is going to fly again. What is your sense 261 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: now about the drug use rumors now that he's out 262 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: of Washington, has it quieted down a bit? I mean, 263 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: you're piece published in late May, right, so it's a 264 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: couple months later. Is there any updates? 265 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't want to give anything away here, Yeah, 266 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 3: but I would say that on the company side, with 267 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 3: his drug use, it's been interesting. You know, one thing 268 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 3: we reported in that story that I thought personally was 269 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 3: like almost the most interesting fact was that he was 270 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 3: getting advanced warnings at SpaceX ahead of drug tests. And 271 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 3: so that's a very big deal because SpaceX is a 272 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 3: private company, it's a massive government contract. You can't even 273 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: like basically take ivprofen with security clearance without reporting it 274 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: to the government. Last year, are my colleagues here and 275 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 3: I reported on all these issues with Elon's security clearance 276 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 3: and how they were not reporting his academy news to 277 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 3: the government. And so now we have reported that he 278 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 3: also was getting heads up ahead of these drug tests. 279 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: Also, just note that you guys reached out to SpaceX 280 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: for comment, right, the company did not respond. 281 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so it doesn't to me seem like the 282 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 3: companies are taking it very seriously, at least from the 283 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 3: reporting I've done. I've never heard of an internal investigation. 284 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 3: I've never heard of any repercussions. That's not to say 285 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 3: there haven't been any. Maybe I just have not heard 286 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 3: about it. But it doesn't seem too much like anyone 287 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 3: is doing anything either at SpaceX or Tesla, where again, 288 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 3: board members have over the years known about it and 289 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 3: just you know, nothing's really changed. 290 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I remember way back in twenty 291 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: eighteen where he smoked pot with Joe Rogan openly on 292 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: his podcast and Rogan was like, are you sure like 293 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: you can do this, like you know, our investor is 294 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: going to freak out, and Musk was like, oh, well, 295 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: isn't it legal? And he sort of took this token. 296 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: I was watching it thinking, Okay, Tesla investors may or 297 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: may not care, but my gud, SpaceX is going to care, 298 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: and NASA is going to care, and the Pentagon is 299 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: going to care. And yeah, it was really surprising to 300 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: me that he would take that risk, given the security 301 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: clearance and given SpaceX's role as such a significant government contractor. 302 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 3: And they did care as you saw, right care. Yeah, 303 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 3: they came right in, They made them clean up their act. 304 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 3: Like I've talked to a bunch of SpaceX employees about 305 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 3: that time since and you know, there was like drug 306 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 3: sniffing dogs in there. They really cracked down for at 307 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 3: least a couple of years, and then it's it's sort 308 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 3: of unclear like what happens since then? Right right? So, yeah, for. 309 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: Sure, the first half of twenty twenty five was crazy 310 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: for elong Musk. He was running five companies, balancing all 311 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: of these children and these multiple partners, very enmeshed with 312 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: the government, basically camped out in either Washington, DC or 313 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: mar A Lago with President Trump. Now he's kind of pivoted, 314 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: ostensibly left Washington, is back focusing on his companies. He 315 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: just celebrated his fifty fourth birthday. So here's a guy 316 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: who's like a gen xer, middle aged. He's got a 317 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: lot to do in the next several months with his companies. 318 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: How do you what do you sort of predict in 319 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: terms of I don't know his stress like and how 320 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: he's going to manage this as we head into the midterms. 321 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 3: It kind of to me seems like he left a 322 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 3: little bit defeated in a way, like he is now 323 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 3: back to the day he was already doing. And you know, 324 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 3: he he's being paid essentially ready to come back to 325 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 3: his business umpire right, this new twenty nine billion dollar 326 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 3: pay package from Tesla, and he's back at SpaceX. He 327 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 3: opened this Tesla diner. The whole thing A little bit 328 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 3: feels like, Okay, I'm back to where I was before, 329 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: and he was already there. You know when you do 330 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 3: some great achievement and then you feel like you should 331 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 3: be moving forward and instead you go back to what 332 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 3: you once had. So I sort of see him like 333 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 3: trying to do all these things. You know, he's obviously 334 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 3: throwing a ton of resources into Xai, his artificial intelligence startup, 335 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 3: to beat Sam Altman at open Ai, and he's moving 336 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 3: forward on that. But I guess I feel like the 337 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 3: enthusiasm seems a little forced to me. And again, this 338 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 3: is just reading what he's posting on x and everything 339 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 3: going on, So it'll be interesting to see, like how 340 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 3: he continues on with politics. I definitely think there's still 341 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 3: an interest there. It's just where he sort of fits 342 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 3: in is the question. And now, you know, his approval 343 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 3: rating is not great among either party because he alienated 344 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 3: the liberals when he, you know, became Trump's special advisor, 345 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 3: and now he is not loved by a lot of 346 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 3: Republicans either. So it'll be interesting to see what he 347 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 3: does in the midterms for sure. 348 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess one final question about drug use in 349 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley. Yeah, So there's one school of thought that 350 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: all of this is people basically self medicating their own 351 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: mental health issues. And Musk has certainly been very public 352 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: and alluded to his own mental health issues, his highs, 353 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: his lows, you know, his depression. He's talked about red 354 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: wine and ambient I mean, he has been very open 355 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: about that. There's like another school thought that's like people 356 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: are all about trying to optimize, like this whole kind 357 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: of trend in terms of health, about like optimizing everything 358 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: like your diet, your exercise, your sleep so that you 359 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: can have like massive brain function and get to squeeze 360 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: the most out of every minute. And for Musk, I mean, 361 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: he schedules his time in these like increments that must 362 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: be it's crazy given everything that he has to do, 363 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: and yet like unwinds by playing video games for hours 364 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: on end. When you think about his drug use, do 365 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: you feel like it's self medicating or is it like 366 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: he's trying to optimize his performance or is it a 367 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: combination of both. 368 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: I think it's probably a combination of both. From what 369 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: we've heard from people. Some of the pushback we get 370 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 3: on the drug reporting is usually like, but he's doing 371 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 3: so great, so like, let him just keep doing what 372 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 3: he's doing, right. But I guess you know, I will 373 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 3: never kind of get out of my head this experience 374 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 3: I had when I was reporting on Tony Shay to 375 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 3: come back to that again, which I went to this 376 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 3: very high end rehab facility that deals a lot wet 377 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 3: billionaires and celebrities and others, and they said, listen, like, 378 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 3: there is no universe where someone is self medicating. That 379 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 3: it's okay, Like that's that's never okay. Now, I'm not, 380 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 3: of course talking about Elon specifically here, I'm just saying generally, 381 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 3: and so I just always have that in my head 382 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 3: when I talk to people who are self medicating or 383 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 3: who think like you're saying they can optimize, which is 384 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 3: kind of that whole like disrupting your health thing I mentioned, right, 385 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 3: So I don't know it's concerning. Yeah. 386 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And to your point, which I think you made 387 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: in this story, like everyone's like, well, he's doing so great, 388 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: he's this once in a lifetime character. Just like he's 389 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 1: an adult. He can make us some decisions. Why are 390 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: you being so schoolmarmy about it. Stop clutching your pearls. 391 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: But to your point, like there are real health effects 392 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: which you saw with Tony Shea, I mean exactly. 393 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 3: I mean that's the big warning. And also, you know, 394 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 3: I think a lot about like why do we care 395 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 3: about someone's drug use? Honestly, and I don't think that 396 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 3: for the average person, we do care. Right, But Elon Musk, 397 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 3: let's just put aside that he's like one of the 398 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 3: world's richest people. He's overseeing six companies, just SpaceX alone, 399 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 3: just SpaceX alone, right, the government contract issue, that alone 400 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 3: should be enough to like look into what drugs he 401 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 3: is or isn't using, because that those rules are very clear. 402 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 3: They're black and white. There's no like, yeah, you can 403 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 3: take a little ketamine on Friday. It's like no, right, 404 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 3: no drugs, And so he provides a really easy way 405 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 3: for why this is an important area to look into. 406 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 3: But ahead of everyone, you know, I've looked into related 407 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 3: to drugs, I'm always asking myself, like, why do we 408 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 3: care about this because I'm not here to like out 409 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 3: someone's occasional like mushroom use at a party, Like that's 410 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 3: not the point of this, right. And also, I mean 411 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 3: he was in the White House, right, so there alone 412 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 3: is like a reason to look into whatever is going 413 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 3: on with him and what he's doing. And so he's 414 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 3: an interesting figure. As you know. 415 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: It's the beat that keeps on giving, you know. So, 416 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: and sourcing is so hard and is so high, and 417 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: it's one of the great challenges in investigative reporting. It's 418 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: and I always am I'm so proud of everyone who's 419 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: on the beat. Like every time I see a scoop 420 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: from a competitor, I'm just happy because I know how 421 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: hard thought it is to get that. So congratulations, Thank 422 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: you so much for joining. 423 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 3: Us, Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. 424 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong and edited by Namasirakas. 425 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 2: Blake Maples handles engineering with help from Joyce Tang and 426 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 2: Dave Purcell fan checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrikson. 427 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 2: The elon In theme is written and performed by take 428 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: Yasuzawa and Alex Sugira. Sage Bauman is the head of 429 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to our supporters Joel Webber 430 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 2: and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, 431 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 2: rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us. 432 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 3: See you next week.