WEBVTT - Ep 18: The Politics of Authenticity 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:03.200 Hey, what's up everybody. I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:08.039 politics and I heard podcast and unbothered production. Time to 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:19.439 get spolitical? All right? This week is officially the last 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:21.560 week of Black History Month, and I thought what better 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:23.479 way to end the month than to go out with 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.840 a little current Black history. Now. History was made this 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:30.120 week when Howard University's men's swimming and diving team won 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:33.720 the Northeast Conference championship for the second time in three 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.280 years now. When the Bison won the title back in 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.120 twenty twenty three, it marked the first time in thirty 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:42.360 four years that Howard had won a swimming and diving title. 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.920 Howard's achievement is especially significant because right now Howard is 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.720 the only HBCU left with a Division one swimming and 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:54.160 diving team. Howard being the last one standing, or rather 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.880 swimming is really counter to the history of competitive swimming 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.560 at historically black colleges and university As recently as the 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.800 nineteen eighties, over twenty HBCUs offered swimming as a varsity sport. 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.280 Notable figures such as Andrew Young and Samuel L. Jackson 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:14.319 both swim competitively when they attended Howard and Moorehouse respectively. Unfortunately, 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.000 over time, the number of HBCUs offered swimming as a 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:21.600 varsity sport dwindled because of resources, facilities, and interests. But 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:23.800 like a lot of things in this country, some of 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:28.600 that lack of interest can be attributed to Tadai racism. Now, 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:30.680 I learned to swim growing up because my mother is 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.119 a lifeguard and she swam when she was growing up. 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:35.160 But that wasn't the case for a lot of black 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.280 kids who are now my age, or grew up in 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.360 my mother's generation or kids. 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:39.680 Now. 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.120 If you study the history of race in this country, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.080 you will find one of the most common vehicles of segregation, 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:49.960 white supremacy, and racial violence was the public swimming pool. 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.800 In the nineteen thirties, the Works Progress Administration was a 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.520 program created under former President Franklin D. Roosevelt, and it 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.040 was part of his transformative New Deal. The WPA was 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.040 an infrastructure program that put thousands of Americans to work 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:06.880 to lift the country out of the depression by having 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.480 them build road, schools, and public pools. Up until that point, 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.160 pools had largely been considered something for the elite and 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.880 the wealthy, but under the WPA, over eight hundred new 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.240 pools were built, and another three hundred were renovated. And 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.959 these were elaborate pools. I mean some had sand, immaculate landscaping, 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.440 and they were huge. The working class was finally going 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.120 to be able to enjoy cooling off in style on 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.560 a hot summer day. Well, not everybody, because this was 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.040 not a time where America was great for black people. 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.600 We were largely ostracized from the Great American pool Party. 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.160 While some pools were built in black areas for black 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.360 residents to use, most were built for the comfort and 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.320 convenience of white people. In the North and the South, 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.959 there were whites only pools and segregated pools. White people 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.680 made it clear they did not want to swim with us, 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.120 As the Daily Shows D. S. Sloan explains, it was 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:04.120 because of knees and well ignorance and white supremacy, but also. 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.480 Needs cities didn't build pools and black neighborhoods, and white 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.560 people didn't want us in their neighborhood pool. Parshally, we 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.840 were concerned about black men intermingling with white women in 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.760 such a sexual atmosphere. I mean, I know it might. 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.480 It's so ridiculous to think of a public pool as 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:24.480 a sexual atmosphere. But this was the nineteen twenty they 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.000 were seeing knees for the first time. I'm talking the top, 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.480 the bottom, that little knuckle part in the middle, the 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:32.280 whole circle. 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:39.560 Woo have you seen these? Stupid but true? And speaking 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.720 of stupid but true, the other reason white people didn't 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:43.920 want black people at the pools is because they believed 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:47.960 black people were unsanitary and unclean. Now, there's so many 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:49.840 jokes to be made there, but I'm gonna just let 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.600 y'all have fun with that one. Do your best. At 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.880 some pools, black people could use the pools on certain days, 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.160 and white supremacists also often use violence to let black 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.160 people know they were not welcome. In Pittsburgh, in nineteen 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.760 thirty five, a black nine year old was badly beaten 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:06.800 by a group of white kids. When the nine year 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.200 old's mother reported the incident to police, the police officer 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.040 told her quote, why can't you people use the Washington 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:15.000 Boulevard pool? 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:19.799 I'm leaving you people? What do you mean do you people? 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.520 What do you mean you people? Saint Louis's first race 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.400 riot was over a pool. In nineteen forty nine, White 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.760 people violently attacked about forty black youth who showed up 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.600 at the integrated pool fairground park. The white people attacked 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:38.160 them with bats, bricks, pipes, and knives. The incident required 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.280 four hundred police and twelve hours to calm things down. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.760 Saint Louis, though, chose to resegregate its pools after that, 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.040 and it saved that way until segregation was legally undone 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.520 with the nineteen fifty four Brown Versus Board of Education 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.920 Supreme Court decision and the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act. 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:56.919 But rather than comply with the decision or I don't know, 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.400 simply learn not to be racist, a lot of cities 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.920 and community instead chose to simply shut down their public pools. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:04.960 As it was, there wasn't a whole lot of public 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.240 pools that were built in black communities, and in those communities, 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.799 particularly the larger cities where there were whites and blacks, 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.720 once white flight took hold, a lot of these by 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.640 default black communities didn't have a pool. So black people 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:20.640 not only had to deal with not having access to 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:22.840 a pool, they also had to deal with the PTSD 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:27.120 of being racially traumatized or simply wanting to swim. The 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.320 lasting effect of that is this sixty four percent of 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:33.560 black kids can't swim. According to the Centers for Disease 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.480 Control and Prevention, five to nineteen year olds who are 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.159 black are five times more likely to drown in a 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.520 swimming pool compared to their white peers, and black children 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.320 ages eleven and twelve were ten times more likely to drown. 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.960 Now this also has translated to overall interest in swimming. 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.200 Less than two percent of swimmers at the NCAA level 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:57.080 are black, which brings me back to Howard, considering how 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.160 it was dangerous at one point for us to even 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.280 try to swim. It makes their most recent national championship 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.440 that much more special. Despite the obstacles and threats to 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.560 our community constantly has faced in swimming or otherwise, it 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.160 seems we can always rely on one thing, our resilience. 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.840 I'm Jamelle Hill, and I approved this message all right. 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:19.039 The Oscars are this weekend, and I am pleased to 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.320 be joined today by someone who is up for not one, 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.359 but two Oscars, one for Best Picture and another for 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.520 Best Adapted Screenplay for his arresting film Nickel Boys, which 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.200 is based on Colson Whitehead's novel. And this is not 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:33.400 the first time I Guess has been nominated for an 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.280 Oscar In twenty nineteen, he was also nominated for his 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:40.760 documentary Hell County, This Morning, This Evening. He has had 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.080 a truly fascinating journey into film. Who was once a 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:48.320 Georgetown basketball player with NBA dreams, and after his basketball 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.240 career didn't pan out, he became inspired to follow his 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:55.720 creative vision. Coming up next on Politics photographer and director 0:06:55.960 --> 0:07:07.719 Ramel Ross. So, Ramel, I'm going to start by asking 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.200 you a question I ask every guest that appears on politics, 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.480 and that is name an athlete or a sports moment 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:14.640 that made you love sports? 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:15.600 Wow? 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:20.920 What a question? Well, an athlete? I unfortunately I don't 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.760 have a unique answer. It's Michael Jordan, like he's always been, 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.760 you know, that idol and that icon. But a sports 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.240 moment for me, I like that better because that's like, 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.680 really really really personal, I think, And it might have 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:38.040 been when I was playing basketball in Upper Marlboro, Maryland, 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.880 with I was like my friend group, you know, four 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:45.640 or five friends and I like kids that we didn't 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.160 get along with, and like were the type of like 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.880 friend groups that would fight. And I somehow think we 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.920 figured out that we would fight by playing basketball and 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.280 it starts to rain and it's black top and we're 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.160 all like fifth and sixth grade, and it's it's like 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:07.280 as memorable as like watching the finals with like, you know, Jordan, 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.160 and I don't think Jordan ever played the Knicks or 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.000 the suns or something where like every point mattered and 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.720 everyone's drenched and no one has a real relationship to 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.040 like their skills because it's wet and like it's it's 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.160 getting dark, and I remember, uh, you know, I think 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:25.320 the moment's so meaningful. 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.320 I don't even know if I don't remember if we 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:27.760 want or not. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:28.960 That was gonna be my next question. 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:29.600 Yeah, who won? 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.520 Yeah, I just remember how epic it was and being 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:35.560 like wow, like this is a place where or the 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.120 epic happens, like you can participate in the epic before 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:39.240 you have the language. 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:39.240 Of the epic. 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:44.400 Now, was there a point where you recognized in your 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.360 athletic upbringing that your skill set was a little more advanced, 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:52.559 that you potentially had something that would last beyond say 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.120 high school or you know, the sort of the traditional 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.560 stoppage time for most youth that are involved. 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.800 In sports, in that my sports would translate to something else. 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:03.640 Yeah, that you might be able to get a college 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.040 scholarship or maybe even be a professional, Like, was there 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.760 a moment when you registered, like I think I'm a 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:13.360 little bit above what the normal level expectation. 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.320 Is for this. No, because I never was. 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.640 So I was a really late bloomer and I got 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.040 into basketball seriously probably when I was a freshman in 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.439 high school. And so I was always good at things 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:28.240 and like tried really hard and played well, and it's 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.160 like the best on my team then. And he looked 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.600 at me and he was like, you know, you've got it, 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:35.040 and I'm like, what do you mean, Like, what's it? 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.480 He's like, I played with Grant and Hill at Tough Lakes, 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.480 Like I played Division two basketball. If you like, did 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:42.679 this college workout, I think you could go to the NBA. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.480 And I was like all right, and I did it, 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.880 and within a year I made varsity and then I 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.200 did one more year and I was top one hundred 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:56.120 players in the country. It was like really fast. And 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.199 I think that translates to the idea of hard work, 0:09:58.320 --> 0:09:59.960 or the idea of having a plan, or the idea 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:05.000 of discipline, because it was like shocking. If you work 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.960 consciously hard, the progress you have. 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:10.640 And now with that, I mean, I don't know what 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.439 your dream may have been before, you know, basketball kind 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.319 of really entered the picture. But like at some point 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.400 I assume that you entertained like, hey, I really want 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:23.880 to be like a professional. So what was it like 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.520 to what was that process like for you to realize 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:28.880 that that was a goal that could be doable for. 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.640 You futurely looking at that and saying, well, it seems 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.760 like I'm always getting better, you know, and is it 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.320 possible to continue to get better to play with, you know, 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:41.720 those who are playing at the highest level. And I'm 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.280 lucky to play basketball in the Northern Virginia sort of 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:47.559 DC area, and so the talent is just off the charts. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.720 So you can measure yourself almost at all times. 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.640 You can go to a gym, you can go play 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.040 in the league, and you can play against pro players 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.240 they're there, or college players, and there's nothing more interesting 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.959 than testing yourself against some one who is at the 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.160 place that you'd like to be and after getting over 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.360 the nerves, being like, wow, I'm not too far away, 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:06.920 you know. 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:11.400 Now, Even then, despite your interest in sports, So but 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.520 did you have interest in like photography, which I know, 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.000 became like a huge component of your career or filmmaking. 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.520 Like were there were their creative desires even then that 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:23.200 you you wanted to fulfill. 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.400 Yeah, there were, there were, and they got sidelined because 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.600 I became obsessed with sports, Like I drew a lot 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.240 as a kid, like I had really you know, super 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.160 middle class parents, very supportive, like they allowed my sister 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:38.120 and how to do anything and supported us. So we 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.400 tried the piano, we did karate, you know, like my 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.240 sister did ballet, and I was attached to drawing and 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:47.480 when I think about it, probably not element to your 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:52.480 school like poetry and writing. But then once I found sports, 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.480 and once I yeah, I kind of just didn't, Like 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.880 I stopped almost reading completely because you know, I just 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.360 watch tapes, like I would just watch basketball games and 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:04.280 like you would study the game and I would be practicing. 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.760 I remember my dad told me once, which is like 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.199 it's scarring now that I think about it. He was like, 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.440 you know, if you're not working out, you know that 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:13.439 there's someone that is. 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.080 And I was just like, what do you mean? 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.959 You know, like there's and then so every time you're 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.600 sitting down, you're like, there's someone else who's practicing and 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.120 they're getting better and that just I just only played basketball, 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:27.920 which is why I think I excelled so fast. 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:29.480 But it was like extreme. 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.520 Now Georgetown, where you you played collegeball, they that wasn't 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.600 because you dealt with an injury in high school. I mean, 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.960 were they on the radar before the injury or how 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:41.040 did that materialize? 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:41.440 Yeah? 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:46.640 Like I got good so fast that I became on 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.559 like on all the you know, major D one school's radars. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.680 But they all wanted to see me play my senior 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.920 year before they offered me a scholarship. But Georgetown, because 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:57.400 I was a local kid and I wanted to go 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.000 there because of Iverson, they offered me before my senior year. 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.360 I just took it because what's better being close to 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.560 home play at Iverson shadow I was a point guard. 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.760 And then that summer I got injured, and to George 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.079 Stown's credit, you know, the first thing that my parents 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:12.320 and I thought was like, oh, they're going to take 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:15.240 the scholarship away, and they could because they have the power. 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:17.319 And they were like, oh no, of course they're still coming, 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.840 like will help you get better in hell? And you know, 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:22.880 literally they said if basketball, if you don't end up, 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.960 you know, being an amazing basketball player or taking us 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.079 to the championship like we hope you do, or you'll 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.200 get a great education and you'll be shuttled off into 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.000 the world. And it's like, I didn't know that those 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:38.400 things happened. You know that schools cared about individuals and yeah, 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.040 and their team, their players. 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.640 Yeah, that is a bit of a foreign concept. Wait 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.120 a minute, you'll still you're caring about my personal development. Yeah, 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.520 just what I can do for you in the basketball court. 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.920 But even you know, getting an opportunity to go to Georgetown, 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.600 which is a fantastic school. And by the way, count 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.760 me among those black people who, because obviously grew up 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:04.000 watching the John Thompson here, I totally thought Georgetown was 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.520 an HBCU. Se No, Georgetown was like, oh, this is 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.240 like a whole elite university that is like, I mean, 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.880 basketball was something they were obviously very good. 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.120 I did not know this smell. It was one of 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.679 the most embarrassing realizations of my life. Too. 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.360 I didn't know either. I committed already, I had already 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.040 committed up hot up. 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:29.280 You before you committed, you thought George was a HB Yeah, I. 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:31.280 Mean Georgetown was like going off to your scholarship. I was like, 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.320 can I sign yesterday? Like I'd love to sign yesterday. 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:36.200 I know that's not possible, but we can do it now. 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.040 It was really funny. I was with my cousin Danika, 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:41.960 and she made her promise not to say this publicly, 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.000 but now that you have the same sort of misstep, 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:45.400 and I don't. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:47.320 We're in the trust tree. Yes. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.600 And my uncle Kenyatta were like in a van outside 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.760 my cousin's house in Upper Marlborough and something. Somebody said 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.680 something and I was like, you know, HBCU and. 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.120 She was like and I was like, wait, what do 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:01.440 you mean. 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:03.800 She's like it's not I'm like, but I mean you've 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.440 seen the team, and she's like romel, like, I don't 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:08.880 know if you're going to make it at Georgetown, if 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.600 you if you're if you, yeah, it's like really embarrassing. 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.840 Listen. It was the same with University of Miami during 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.840 the height of like the Hurricanes. I didn't I thought 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.240 it was a black school. Yeah yeah, this is a 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:22.560 rich private school. 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:26.720 Like yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.720 But you know your experience of going there, because I 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:30.720 think you were on the teams with like Jeff Green 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.480 was one of your teammates. Yeah, and it was somebody 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:36.240 else whose name. I mean, I know you had a 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:37.440 lot of other teammates. 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.120 Specific came in, like I came in two thousand with 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.040 Mike Sweetney, Mike Sweetney. Yeah, and like Reuben Boomsha boomsha, 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.960 Kevin braswell, like the Wan Dixon era in Maryland was on. 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:47.560 Yeah. 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.280 So what was what was it like to, you know, 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:53.480 be able to play for Georgetown like a school you 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:55.640 obviously were very emotionally connected to. 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:57.240 Yeah, it was. 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.600 Incredible and I I savored every moment of it. So 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:03.800 it's easy to look back and be like and not 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.960 have regrets, you know, like I did my best and 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.880 I took advantage of the education and the community. But man, 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.800 like to walk into that to the Kenner and I 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.600 was at Kinner League, I'm sorry to walk into what 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.000 was the name of the arena, the arena, it's like 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:23.960 McDonough arena. To walk into McDonough arena and like to 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:28.680 see Patrick Ewing's jersey, Alondo Mornings jersey, and to. 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:30.080 Like have them come and play with us. 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.440 I mean, we're kind of the center of at least 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:37.600 at that time of basketball in the city, you know, 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.280 because of the Kenner League, all the pros would come 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.120 play with us in the summertime, and so we have 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.320 all the Wizards coming in, like the Legacy and the 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.280 it's just so incredible, like so incredible, and like you 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.720 wear Georgetown jersey and then like people come in and 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.440 they look at you as if you're one of them, 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:56.600 and obviously you're not, but like you're part of a family. 0:16:56.720 --> 0:17:00.320 It's like really like very proud to have played with them. 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.080 And you were coached by JT three, right, John Thompson 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.000 the third What was your relationship like with him? 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:06.960 Yeah? 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.720 He was, Yeah, I think one of the best coaches 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:11.760 I've had. I have never had a coach that had 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:16.160 been so sort of human, you know, like very approachable, 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:20.040 like very i want to even say, low key and 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.639 soft spoken, but seemed to have like a very strong vision, 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.280 high expectations, and I think had a lot of the 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:33.080 father figure traits that that John Thompson, Big John had. Yeah, 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.479 I'll never forget, Like my mom passed away when I 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:39.280 was in Georgetown, and I'll never forget, you know, three 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.200 days after it happened, just being home and like just 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.360 getting a knock on my door. It's just being John Thompson, 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.439 you know, it's just like coming to hang out. And 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.600 it was just like really surprising, you know, because family, 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:52.600 although my family had always come to all the games, 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:57.200 you don't see the coaches outside of that small community, 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.240 like not very often do the teams go to their 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:03.080 houses at least as we had the community at Georgetown. 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:05.679 That's like the kind of guy was. And that's an 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.480 extreme example. I imagine a coach would go visit. But 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.000 that stuff is really meaningful, you know, And that's he 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:13.920 cared a lot about individuals. 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.400 Most people who are just even casually familiar with athletics 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.640 understands that it takes a lot of discipline, a lot 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:22.560 of discipline, a lot of hard work, those kind of things. 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.880 In what ways would you say your background in sports 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:28.800 kind of prepared you for what you're doing now? 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.920 Yeah, I love thinking about these things. 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.720 I think that there's I just can't I feel like 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:38.040 now in culture, athletes are really having access to the 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.760 arts and like it's really okay to be you. 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:43.960 Know, EMO and a basketball player. 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:46.560 You know, like it's okay to like Metallica and then 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.040 also you know, be really into sports and where a Jersey. 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:52.199 But when I was growing up it was the opposite. Like, 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.119 you know, basketball culture was something you go into and 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.800 it subsumes you, and if you don't, you know, very 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:00.960 few people could be like as Rob Men or Bill 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.600 Walton on their team without everyone just being like, you know, 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.520 shoving you off to the side. But I love the 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:12.760 way that sports taught me that you do things now 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.240 that you won't see a payoff for until later, and 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:19.679 you don't know when it's going to show up, you know, 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:22.960 like investing in like a stock or something like, you 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.080 have your expect to get these gains in a month 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:29.080 or in two months, but when you're practicing something like 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:30.800 you can't say in one month, I'm going to be 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.520 able to do this move in a game seamlessly, unconsciously 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.159 and integrated into my skill set do the thing I 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.719 need to do. It just shows up one day, and 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.800 that not being able to predict when it does allows 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.200 one to like commit to the task at hand and 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.240 not worry too much about when it is, just knowing 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.359 that it will. And that to me is what filmmaking 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.720 is and what photography is. Looking at art the way 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.600 that other people's work integrates itself into the way in 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:58.880 which you think about your own work and your own self, 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.520 and then it shows up sometimes when you don't know it. 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:03.919 Also, like the way that I used a camera. 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:05.879 I've been making images for a really long time in 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:10.480 the specific community, and now I have a muscle memory 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.919 of framing and making images that is very similar to 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:14.480 a jump shot. Like if you give me a camera, 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.280 I make images that look like my images because I've 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:19.840 done it so much. And I don't know when that clicked, 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:22.640 but I knew it would because of sports. 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.560 Now, George Stown, you majored in fine arts, was it? 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:27.080 No? 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:27.159 No? 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.919 I majored double majored in English and sociology. Then I 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:32.960 got a minor in this thing called the inter arts, 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.720 which are strange because it's just as like one improp 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.280 Class one painting, Class one photography, so kind of hotchposh. 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:44.240 How much thought had you given to what your life 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.080 might look like without basketball? 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:52.919 None? I was like lost completely, but not even a 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:57.480 butt actually lost. I knew, I think, And I came 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:02.080 to this conclusion while chat with someone about these things 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:03.280 because it's not something. 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:05.040 That I think about in language. 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:06.720 You know, you kind of have feelings about the stuff, 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:08.720 and you can sit in the feelings, but to articulate 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:13.680 it's different. Because I lost my mother and basketball about 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:18.600 the same time, photography and English language came into my 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:20.080 life in a way that. 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:22.520 I took it very seriously. 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:27.360 So it's about identity formation and knowledge production, and that 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:32.439 was happening at that time, which paid dividends into towards 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.879 the art that I'm making now. But at that moment, 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.240 it was just a space that I felt safe and 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.040 I felt control over my thoughts. 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:40.600 And my destiny. 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.000 You know, if I think I'm going to go to 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:46.800 the NBA, everything's telling me I am my scholarships, you know, 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:51.040 you know, nominating McDonald's all American. You lose your future. 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:53.760 You don't know what to do, but then you also 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:59.080 lose your mom. You're like, I have no idea what 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.840 the future looked like, and so settling into the craft 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.480 it filled those voids, and so I didn't have to 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:07.720 think about my future because I had something that I 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:08.480 could practice. 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:14.159 So at what point did you realize that, Hey, I 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.600 think this is something I want to pursue, pursuing the arts, 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:20.760 pursuing filmmaking, photography, Like, at what point did you realize, like, 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:22.240 this is the direction I needed to go. 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:26.679 I was obsessed with photography so much so that I 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:28.879 was getting in trouble. When I lived in Northern Ireland 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:31.320 and played professional basketball for a year, worked for this 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:35.520 organization called Piece Players International that was using divide, using 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:39.119 basketball to bridge social divides with Casoclus and Protestants. So 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.080 I was a regional photographer and sometimes I spend more 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:44.679 time taking photographs for them than I would doing the 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:47.720 real work, which was not good of course, And the 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:50.320 organization got an sp that year and there was an 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.600 ESPN photographer that came don't remember his name. They looked 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:56.080 at my photographs and he was like, oh, you've got 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:57.800 a good eye. 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:01.200 And I was like, what's a good eye? I don't 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:01.600 even know. 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:04.960 Yeah, so like look it up and you know, chat 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:07.199 with him one or two times while he's photographing for ESPN, 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:13.040 and he, you know, indirectly convinced me that I could 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:16.040 make photograph like people like people would like my images 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:17.960 or something. And at that point I was like, I 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:21.720 want to be a photographer and got back and immediately 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.920 just super obsessed, started teaching photography and elementary schools and. 0:23:25.480 --> 0:23:29.159 Yeah, that was it right now at that point, like 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:31.720 at what point did you start to consider filmmaking as 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:35.280 like this is going to be sort of I don't 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:36.760 on is it the word I'm looking for, but an 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:38.960 extension of what I've already done. 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:43.320 That wasn't until I was in Alabama and I had 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:48.440 photographed three years in Hell County. 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:49.679 And I was making just when you were working on 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:50.480 your documentary. 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:51.520 This is right before. 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:54.200 So I moved here and I was living in DC 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:56.320 from like two thousand and seven to two thousand and nine, 0:23:57.280 --> 0:24:00.480 teaching photography, making images. Couldn't afford to live there, moved 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:05.520 to Alabama, start teaching photography there, start coaching basketball, and 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:09.399 I'm like obsessed with photography. I'm like studying it, you know, 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:14.440 digging into the history, and I'm taking images, which is 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:16.720 so interesting. I'm taking images and all of them look 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:20.040 like someone else's, right, but they're really beautiful, you know, 0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:23.439 but they're like I know that there's that I'm not 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:26.160 in them. I'm channeling what I like to call universal 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:29.359 standards of beauty, and so I'm trying to figure out 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:31.840 why my images don't look like my own, you know, 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:34.399 in the same way that every person has a different 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.159 jump shot, you try to shoot like someone else you 0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:39.560 will never be successful. You have to find the way 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:43.240 that the ball in your body mechanics work with space 0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:45.080 and time and the ball like you have to find you. 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:49.119 And after three years, I like figured something out with 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:53.320 photography where I was really in dialogue with my own 0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:56.639 image making process and the history and blackness, and like, 0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:00.560 I'm like, oh, I understand how to make images. And 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:02.879 about that time, I'm like, I wonder what that looks 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:06.520 like in film, Like what does that specificity, what does 0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:09.280 that reflexivity look like in the moving image? 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:11.920 And that's when I started Hell County Now. 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:17.240 To go immediately to then begin working on a documentary 0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:19.800 about the place where you were living. What sort of 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:21.800 gave you the idea that you wanted to focus in 0:25:21.920 --> 0:25:24.560 on Alabama, on Hell County in particular. 0:25:25.119 --> 0:25:28.560 Yeah, So I'd moved there and I didn't know that 0:25:28.640 --> 0:25:33.119 I was moving to one of the most historic counties 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:36.600 for fine art photography like this sky Walker Evans and 0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:39.719 this guy wheream Christian Berry had been photographing there. They 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:43.880 kind of produced what most people know as rural poverty visually, 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:46.960 and they were working for I don't think when christ 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:49.520 Marry was Thelice Walker Evans was hired by the Farm 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:52.760 Security Administration to photograph as Dorth theer Lange and all 0:25:52.800 --> 0:25:55.720 these other historical photographers. And I go to this place 0:25:55.800 --> 0:26:00.760 that is essentially the most photograph region or the most 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:03.200 known reason for rural poverty, and all of the folks 0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:05.760 that are imaged are white. And I'm like, Okay, that's interesting. 0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:09.719 Why are there not images of people of color? And 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:11.480 then I look at the way in which people of 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:13.639 color have been photographed in the region. I'm like, Okay, 0:26:13.680 --> 0:26:16.320 these people of color have obviously been photographed by white 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:20.600 people because there's a distance there, there's an objectification, and 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:23.560 it's not even necessarily explicit, you know, there's just something 0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:27.399 I noticed that's not in our community. And so I'm like, well, 0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:30.959 what's it look like for a person like myself, who 0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:33.280 considers the South to be a sort of culture sack 0:26:33.359 --> 0:26:36.239 for Black American identity to come to the South from 0:26:36.280 --> 0:26:38.840 the North with all these notions of this is how 0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:41.359 you help it? You know, you guys are a little 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:43.840 bit behind New York, you know, like, what's it look 0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:45.840 like for me to look at the South as it's 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:50.640 my conceptual home that kind of became my working mantra 0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:53.840 in a way or my working constitution, and with that, 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:59.400 I wonder what cinema's participation in the language of blackness 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:01.040 as it relates to said those ideas. 0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:05.159 Now, that project was nominated for an oscar correct, So 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:09.120 you know, even though a lot of creatives they don't 0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:13.960 necessarily do creative work for validation. But what did it 0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:17.320 feel like, I know now, like for you to have 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:20.800 like this, this, you know, first project that you've done, 0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:25.280 you know, at that scale, to be received in that way. 0:27:26.119 --> 0:27:27.040 It's crazy. 0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:29.399 You know. One thing that's funny is I was on 0:27:29.480 --> 0:27:34.320 The Daily Show with Trevoroa and this is right after 0:27:34.320 --> 0:27:37.560 we get nominated, and he's like, you got nominated in 0:27:37.600 --> 0:27:39.320 your first one, like what's the next? And I'm like, 0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:42.480 I'm done, never making another one. And then you make 0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:44.960 Nickel Boys, and then of course Nicol Boys gets nominated 0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:47.399 and I'm like, I'm seriously done, Like why would I 0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:51.159 ever make a third? Just kidding, No, it's you know, 0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:54.680 it's incredible for one's ego, I think, But I think 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:58.159 what it taught me, If that's the way to answer 0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:01.800 the question, is that people people don't know what they want. 0:28:02.840 --> 0:28:05.439 People think they know what they want. People's tastes are 0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:11.800 led by people who are making things, and essentially it pays, 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:15.440 it pays, it pays off, maybe to the maximum if 0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:19.879 you dig into like subjectivity and into yourself, and people 0:28:19.920 --> 0:28:23.000 will come to it, like people want to like new things. 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:26.800 Because the film is, especially in twenty seventeen, like it 0:28:26.840 --> 0:28:29.760 is not it's not supposed to be nominated for an oscar, 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:32.280 you know, Like the film was anti consumption, Like I 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:35.280 built it as a response to image making of people 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:37.879 of color, Like it was supposed to be this grappling 0:28:37.960 --> 0:28:40.560 between what you expect and what you're gidding and the 0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:42.640 image is in your own head and you're responding to 0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:44.640 it with your own imagination. You're completing the film, like 0:28:44.640 --> 0:28:47.600 all these big ideas. But then it was accepted because 0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:50.640 I think at that time people of color and not 0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:53.120 people of color, were a little bit tired of the 0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:55.760 way in which films narrativize lives and the way in 0:28:55.760 --> 0:29:00.000 which images of people of color sometimes feel a bit reductive. 0:29:01.600 --> 0:29:03.520 And that's validating and encouraging. 0:29:04.280 --> 0:29:06.840 Well, we could have done this entire podcast on Nickel 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:09.120 Boys alone. I wanted it last night, so it's very 0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:14.480 fresh in top of my Yes, seven million questions without 0:29:14.520 --> 0:29:16.960 giving it away. But we're going to take a quick 0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:19.680 break and we'll be right back with more from you, 0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:21.640 and we are going to get into a deep discussion 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:24.280 of Nickel Boys, which is nominated for an Oscar or 0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:26.440 a couple of Hobscars this year, all right back in 0:29:26.480 --> 0:29:38.240 the Moway. So, as I mentioned before the break, I 0:29:38.280 --> 0:29:39.960 have so much I want to talk to you as 0:29:39.960 --> 0:29:43.720 it relates to Nickel Boys, which is based off Coldon 0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:46.880 Whitehead's book, which was a Polite Surprise winning book. And 0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:49.320 I remember hearing about the book and it was always 0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:51.560 on my to read lists at some point and I 0:29:51.640 --> 0:29:53.680 never got around to it. And so when I first 0:29:53.720 --> 0:29:55.960 heard about Nickel Boys, I was like, oh, this is 0:29:56.000 --> 0:29:59.479 an opportunity. Even though I have to say I always 0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:01.560 go into it when something's based off a book, I 0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:04.720 always went to it with a preconceived bias like this 0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:07.800 ain't gonna be as good, blah blah blah, you know whatever. 0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:12.600 And I think the best films made about books are 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:14.640 the films that actually make you want to read a book. 0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:17.040 And that's how I felt after watching Nickel Boys. It 0:30:17.160 --> 0:30:20.520 made me want to read the book because I have 0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:23.920 to say, just purely from an esthetic standpoint, and this 0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:26.960 is not really my lane. It's one of the most 0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:29.640 beautiful movies I've ever seen, like just the way it 0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:34.520 was shot, the images, and so your photography background like 0:30:34.960 --> 0:30:38.960 really showed up in this. Is that even if and 0:30:39.000 --> 0:30:41.520 it's a very quiet movie, you know, like it's just 0:30:41.880 --> 0:30:44.600 it's quiet and powerful, like kind of all at once. 0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:48.600 And of course, like most people, I was very struck 0:30:48.680 --> 0:30:51.200 by the perspective in which you chose to do the movie, 0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:56.840 which was a first person lens and you know, just 0:30:56.880 --> 0:30:59.360 talk to me about like that that's a brave decision 0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:01.640 to make for this kind of for this kind of work, 0:31:01.760 --> 0:31:05.640 Like what what gave you the courage to present this 0:31:05.680 --> 0:31:06.400 film this way? 0:31:07.280 --> 0:31:07.520 Yeah. 0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:09.880 I think there's a bunch of factors, and I could 0:31:09.920 --> 0:31:13.280 talk forever about all of them, but I'll try to 0:31:13.280 --> 0:31:17.360 summarize it into one is that this is like second 0:31:17.440 --> 0:31:20.320 career for me, Like a lot of people, I think, 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:22.800 and this is hot take, maybe not a hot take. 0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:26.200 I think make films, worried about making the next one, 0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:28.520 you know, like I want to do this for a living, 0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:31.160 and you know, this is going to give me an 0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:34.240 opportunity to do this, Like I'm not thinking about another film. 0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:39.720 I'm only trying to make the most powerful thing once, 0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:45.640 you know. And I think with that, I think, yeah, 0:31:45.960 --> 0:31:49.880 I don't have failure. Failure doesn't occur to me because 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:52.640 I've already had like the most extreme failure, which is 0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:56.120 like losing basketball, like to me, my body giving out, 0:31:56.160 --> 0:31:58.560 and like, I don't know, like it couldn't get worse, 0:31:58.640 --> 0:32:00.640 Like what's worse than that, you know, making a film 0:32:00.640 --> 0:32:02.960 and someone not liking it. I don't I'm sorry you 0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:05.480 don't like it. You know, I'm sure I'm going to 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:09.080 like it, you know. And I think with that, and 0:32:09.120 --> 0:32:12.680 with yeah, it's allowed me to be a free thinking 0:32:12.720 --> 0:32:15.600 sort of art maker in which it's less about reception 0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:19.920 and more about intention. That's the first thing. And I 0:32:19.920 --> 0:32:22.320 think the second thing is I've been working on the 0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:25.280 ideas that are in this film for fifteen years, because 0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:28.000 they started with my photography, and then they you know, 0:32:28.040 --> 0:32:30.240 the three years of making images and then finding the thing, 0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:32.920 then then making a photo series that I thought was 0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:35.800 really meaningful, then making Hell County, This Morning, This Evening, 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:38.800 which is essentially a first person film without my hands 0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:41.800 in it. So this is kind of the next iteration 0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:45.120 of my art practice, so I relatively know what I'm doing, 0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:47.360 so I have the like I have the practice I've 0:32:47.360 --> 0:32:49.840 been practicing for a long time. It was just about 0:32:49.880 --> 0:32:51.480 resources and collaborators. 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:53.760 Well, it didn't feel like you were doing something bubld. 0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:54.640 That's what it sounds like, you're. 0:32:54.520 --> 0:32:55.040 Saying, exactly. 0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:58.800 Okay, Yeah, but I know that it is, but only 0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:01.440 in the sort of studio commercial system, because in the 0:33:01.520 --> 0:33:04.160 art world, no one would be like, this is bold. 0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:06.720 They would be like, oh, interesting, peace like it means this, 0:33:06.800 --> 0:33:11.440 it means this. But for commercial films too forefront black 0:33:11.480 --> 0:33:14.520 subjectivity to use the camera in this way, to like 0:33:14.640 --> 0:33:20.080 not have traditional narrative markers that explore emotion and empathy 0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:23.480 and expected ways, you know, which is like showing the 0:33:23.560 --> 0:33:30.080 violence and or you know, making the devastating part of 0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:33.320 one of the characters lives at the end of the film, 0:33:33.600 --> 0:33:36.400 an entire scene that goes on for a long time. 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:41.200 That's just the language of studios. So so yeah, it 0:33:41.280 --> 0:33:43.160 wasn't It wasn't that much of a leip. 0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:47.160 I guess, as somebody who is getting more intimately acquainted 0:33:47.160 --> 0:33:50.000 with how things work in Hollywood through my own projects, 0:33:50.640 --> 0:33:53.640 I couldn't help but think as the after I'd finished 0:33:53.720 --> 0:33:58.360 Nickel Boys, I how did this get made? The number 0:33:58.360 --> 0:34:02.880 one thing that came to mind, especially we see we 0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:05.560 see sort of what is being prioritized, like a lot 0:34:05.600 --> 0:34:08.640 of nostalgia, a lot of remakes, that kind of thing. 0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:10.960 I was like, and while this is based off a book, 0:34:10.960 --> 0:34:13.040 I'm like, I don't know who green lit this, but 0:34:13.160 --> 0:34:19.000 like just share what what you can about that process, 0:34:19.040 --> 0:34:22.160 because this is the type of movie I easily see 0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:24.680 you go into a pitch meeting and they're like, yeah. 0:34:24.560 --> 0:34:28.760 No, you know, yeah, well Jamel, you know, I introduce 0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:31.680 you to the people. Yeah, you know, one of them 0:34:31.760 --> 0:34:37.160 sitting over there right across you know, yeah, I mean yeah, Edward. 0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:41.480 Edward works with MGM and Orian And you know, I 0:34:41.520 --> 0:34:44.360 can only say that it was you know, Plan B, 0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:49.560 which is Brad Pitt, Jeremy Kleiner and Dde Gardner, Alana 0:34:49.600 --> 0:34:54.560 Mayo at Oriyan, Jocelyn Barnes at Louvertore and David Levine 0:34:54.640 --> 0:34:58.600 at Anonymous Content, like those were the brain trust, like 0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:01.759 the you know plann. We owned the rights and they 0:35:01.880 --> 0:35:05.080 actually came to me because they saw Hell County this morning, 0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:08.200 this evening and Dede Gardner, who was like a kind 0:35:08.200 --> 0:35:09.719 of adapted screenplay. 0:35:09.760 --> 0:35:11.239 Whisperer for directors was. 0:35:11.200 --> 0:35:15.680 Like, this book is really really, really fascinating, and like, 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:18.880 because of these elements, I think it needs it in 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:21.600 the form, needs to be equal to the content and 0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:23.080 in hell count of this morning, this evening, that's a 0:35:23.120 --> 0:35:26.040 huge concept of the film. So she was like, I 0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:28.719 didn't think anyone could do it aside from Ramel. I mean, 0:35:28.760 --> 0:35:31.040 I didn't know she thought that highly of it until 0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:33.920 kind of after and thought that highly of me. She 0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:36.360 approached me and said they loved the film, Colson loved 0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:37.560 how kind of this morning, this evening? 0:35:37.640 --> 0:35:38.680 What do you think about this book? 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:41.200 And then I proceeded to ask my co writing partner 0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:44.640 Jocelyn Barnes, and we kind of went forward, but they 0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:47.480 didn't flinch at the idea, which is crazy in hindsight. 0:35:47.560 --> 0:35:50.920 It is because again that was my immediate thought, Like 0:35:51.600 --> 0:35:55.480 I wonder what this process was, this was like. But 0:35:56.400 --> 0:35:58.840 what was really fascinating is as I was doing research 0:35:58.880 --> 0:36:03.400 for this interview is seeing that Closon Whitehead did not 0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:08.320 provide any feedback of this at all, Like he really 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:13.040 removed himself from this process. So how did you receive 0:36:13.280 --> 0:36:15.960 that part that he didn't seem to want anything to 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:17.640 do with the filmmaking part of it, not in a 0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:21.000 negative way, but he wanted to clearly create some distance. 0:36:21.239 --> 0:36:21.600 Yeah. 0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:23.400 Well, I thought that he would at first, you know, 0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:25.960 want to participate. And when I sent him an email 0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:30.440 thanking him for the opportunity, I assumed there would be 0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:32.799 a conversation that would start. But he like wrote back 0:36:32.880 --> 0:36:36.480 like good luck, you know, like you got it. I 0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:38.839 look forward to seeing the movie. And I went back 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:41.279 to the email. He actually said I sent him the 0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:44.400 script too. I won't read the script, I'll just watch 0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:48.720 the movie. But I realized after talking with Barry Jenkins, 0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:52.160 who made Moonline and some other things, some other great films, 0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:54.600 that he did the same with him, and so he 0:36:54.760 --> 0:36:59.320 is a distance, a distant collaborator with his own work, 0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:03.440 which I appreciate and I imagine was free freeing for 0:37:03.520 --> 0:37:04.160 Barry as well. 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:05.719 Yeah, I was just saying, did that make you a 0:37:05.760 --> 0:37:07.799 little nervous at all? Because by the time he sees it, 0:37:07.800 --> 0:37:10.560 if he didn't like it, I know, right, Yeah, Well, 0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:11.440 I don't know what to tell you. 0:37:11.520 --> 0:37:13.960 Well, you know, like a question, it's a good question, 0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:18.000 but it like Jocelyn Barnes my code writer and I 0:37:18.080 --> 0:37:20.200 we had to think immediately, like who we owe what 0:37:20.320 --> 0:37:24.840 to I think if if Colson's novel wasn't based on 0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:28.480 the Doser School for Boys. Well, there's this book by 0:37:28.640 --> 0:37:31.480 doctor Aaron Kimberley called We Carry Their Bones, which was 0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:34.959 a sort of nonfiction account of her as the lead 0:37:35.040 --> 0:37:38.520 forensic investigator and kind of exumer of the entire story. 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:41.320 Essentially she works for a University of South Florida. It 0:37:41.400 --> 0:37:43.080 was like her crew that went and dug up the 0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:46.520 bodies and like you know, put together the documents that 0:37:46.600 --> 0:37:50.799 the government would then use to really solidify almost like 0:37:50.960 --> 0:37:54.960 scientifically what happened. It's based on a real story like 0:37:55.000 --> 0:37:58.200 this is these are like facts and devast it's devastatingly true. 0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:01.080 So Jocelyn and I have to ask, like do we 0:38:01.160 --> 0:38:04.320 owe Calson or do we owe the Doser School boys? 0:38:04.680 --> 0:38:07.760 You know, like what's what? And of course we owe Calson. 0:38:07.800 --> 0:38:09.839 Like he's given us the opportunity to use his ip 0:38:10.400 --> 0:38:14.640 the mythology that he built around Elwood and Turner the 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:17.480 Nickel Boys is why most people know about the story. 0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:19.880 Like he needed to elevate it to literature for us 0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:23.960 to get it to hopefully elevate it to cinema. But yeah, 0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:27.799 it was we figured we owed most to Dozier and 0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:30.640 then second to Caulson, respectively. 0:38:30.640 --> 0:38:30.960 Calson. 0:38:30.960 --> 0:38:34.239 If you listen, no, that makes sense because for those 0:38:34.239 --> 0:38:37.120 who are listening and watching who are not familiar, you 0:38:37.160 --> 0:38:41.040 know this is based off it's a reformatory school where 0:38:41.080 --> 0:38:44.799 they were clearly abusing black boys. They had their own 0:38:44.840 --> 0:38:48.880 system of like apart time and segregation within this reformatory school. 0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:54.319 And your film takes us of sort of inside the 0:38:54.400 --> 0:38:58.160 emotional the physical toll that these boys are going through. 0:38:58.160 --> 0:39:00.600 But the way you do it, I think if somebody 0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:02.960 just said, okay, this is what the story is about, 0:39:03.239 --> 0:39:06.719 people would automatically assume like, oh, this is gonna be 0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:10.120 black trauma from start to finish. Yeah yeah, but it's 0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:13.359 not that, you know. And what I loved about it too, 0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:18.840 is that I thought the imagination of violence was actually 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:23.040 more powerful than showing these boys getting brutalized the way 0:39:23.080 --> 0:39:26.960 that they were. And I would love to for you 0:39:27.040 --> 0:39:29.640 to share why you made that such an intentional choice 0:39:29.640 --> 0:39:32.600 that you didn't want to just show these boys being beating. 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:37.799 You wanted the audience to think about this violence differently yeah, 0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:38.279 and the. 0:39:38.239 --> 0:39:40.839 Way that you're asking it to me now, in this 0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:45.080 specific sort of thread of conversation, it's making me realize 0:39:45.080 --> 0:39:48.719 something about that in that I also think it's more 0:39:48.719 --> 0:39:50.960 powerful to not show it, which is why Jocelyn and 0:39:51.000 --> 0:39:54.560 I did it. And the reason that is is because 0:39:55.920 --> 0:40:01.360 black people in general are over indexed visually with violence 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:05.080 onto our bodies, right like it's in culture's imagination. There 0:40:05.120 --> 0:40:06.920 was a time in which it was really important that 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:09.279 we show the things that we have, the Rodney King 0:40:09.320 --> 0:40:13.200 footage that we have, the movies in which we're seeing graphically, 0:40:13.239 --> 0:40:16.040 because people didn't believe it, and people actually didn't know 0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:17.920 the extent to which it was true. But at some 0:40:17.960 --> 0:40:20.399 point it becomes a sort of it happens to them, 0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:23.719 not us, or that's all that happens to them, and 0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:26.800 so they become a sum of that or inextricably connected 0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:28.960 to it. I think we kind of all know these 0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:33.319 things intuitively. But I think what's interesting is that for 0:40:33.360 --> 0:40:37.200 people who are traumatized, they're like Mark, like, they don't 0:40:37.239 --> 0:40:39.560 need to they don't need to go through the trauma 0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:42.520 to have the trauma be produced in their brain because 0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:45.440 they've experienced it in their past and so you know, 0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:48.960 someone who was in the war and hears all the 0:40:49.000 --> 0:40:51.520 sound and sees all the things. If they're in a 0:40:51.560 --> 0:40:53.520 city in the fourth of July, it is popping off 0:40:53.880 --> 0:40:54.719 like they're going. 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:56.200 Back and it's really scary for them. 0:40:56.800 --> 0:40:58.600 But it seems to me the way that you asked 0:40:58.640 --> 0:41:00.920 a question that actually culture is like that as it 0:41:00.960 --> 0:41:04.000 relates to black imagery, in that it seems like culture 0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:06.759 is traumatized with the over index large culture at large, 0:41:06.800 --> 0:41:10.480 American culture at large, black, white, every single color. But 0:41:10.480 --> 0:41:12.840 it's interesting to think of those images as being trauma 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:15.440 and not just being images that are content. 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:19.160 You know, Yeah, I mean, that's that's why I didn't 0:41:19.280 --> 0:41:22.200 I didn't read a single review about this movie before 0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:25.000 I saw it. I knew about that again the existence 0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:27.160 of the book, and I knew the general plot line, 0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:30.120 and so when I started the movie, I was thinking, 0:41:30.239 --> 0:41:32.880 I was like, I just hope, like I'm not halfway 0:41:32.920 --> 0:41:35.040 through this movie, and I wanted to sort of piro 0:41:35.120 --> 0:41:39.120 wet off a building. I was totally thinking that. I 0:41:39.120 --> 0:41:42.000 was like, please, don't let this be another another round 0:41:42.080 --> 0:41:44.600 of fresh trauma. And so when it got to the 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:49.680 point of where you know, you're showing what happens in 0:41:49.719 --> 0:41:53.000 the White House, if you will, the place where they 0:41:53.320 --> 0:41:55.920 took the boys that needed to be disciplined. It was 0:41:56.560 --> 0:41:59.879 far more thoughtful and scary the way that you did it. 0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:05.480 Being able to hear the young man trembling and shaking, 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:08.480 and him hearing the sounds and the other like that 0:42:08.640 --> 0:42:11.479 was way. That was what That was the perfect note 0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:15.040 from me, as opposed to like just showing some random 0:42:15.080 --> 0:42:17.080 acts of violence. I don't think I would have gotten 0:42:17.120 --> 0:42:17.799 it the same way. 0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:22.200 It's also I think that's the human experience of those things, 0:42:22.520 --> 0:42:24.480 you know. And if we're going to take point of 0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:26.400 view seriously, and I like to say, like make the 0:42:26.400 --> 0:42:30.280 camera an organ, then people aren't viewing that they're actually 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:33.640 in the other room. And it's actually true to the 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:36.560 way in which the film and the camera exists. 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:38.799 So it kind of just makes practical sense as well. 0:42:38.960 --> 0:42:42.080 Did you ever think of doing this movie a different 0:42:42.080 --> 0:42:44.160 way or did you always know how you wanted to do? 0:42:44.520 --> 0:42:47.360 Man? I really I credit my co writing partner. 0:42:47.400 --> 0:42:49.200 Like I remember finishing the book and like, you know, 0:42:49.520 --> 0:42:51.719 thinking a bit, and you know, the first thought after 0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:53.759 a while I was reading it was point of view, 0:42:54.200 --> 0:42:57.600 And I call Jocelyn and I tell her what I'm thinking, 0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:01.279 and she's always supportive. So she wasn't like, man, you 0:43:01.320 --> 0:43:04.360 can't do that, or Bory, that's crazy. She was just like, oh, that's. 0:43:04.200 --> 0:43:06.920 Interesting, and we we just went with it. But what 0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:07.640 if she didn't. 0:43:08.960 --> 0:43:10.719 I never had another thought, but I wonder, like, what 0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:12.080 other versions it would have been? 0:43:12.400 --> 0:43:13.800 Yeah, no idea. 0:43:14.640 --> 0:43:17.759 Why did you because this seemed to be a theme 0:43:17.800 --> 0:43:20.440 and a message in the film without being in avert message. 0:43:20.480 --> 0:43:22.319 But why did you think it was important to sort 0:43:22.320 --> 0:43:25.480 of showcase vulnerability in black Boys? 0:43:25.760 --> 0:43:27.200 Yeah? Man, that's like. 0:43:28.640 --> 0:43:33.000 Such a good question that I think just emerging naturally 0:43:33.520 --> 0:43:36.240 through the way in which I like to use the camera, 0:43:36.520 --> 0:43:40.600 because I think that you know, I remember after shooting 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:44.320 hel County this morning, this evening, and I remember Jocelyn 0:43:44.360 --> 0:43:47.560 being in the edit with me, like, you know, consulting 0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:49.000 when I was making cuts, and I. 0:43:48.920 --> 0:43:51.280 Remember her asking me, are you gay? 0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:55.960 You know, just like straight up, you know, and she 0:43:55.960 --> 0:44:00.680 she identifies as queer, like she has she has a 0:44:00.680 --> 0:44:03.920 a female partner, And obviously she's not saying it in 0:44:04.280 --> 0:44:06.520 any sort of like eighties use of day age, just 0:44:06.560 --> 0:44:10.600 like just yeah, because like the way that you know, 0:44:11.000 --> 0:44:13.400 I really like the camera like caresses the skin and 0:44:13.440 --> 0:44:15.520 its proximity, and the way in which it kind of 0:44:16.040 --> 0:44:22.080 aestheticizes quote unquote black bodies in a way that's not objectifying, 0:44:22.120 --> 0:44:26.000 but it's like tender and loving and romantic, but it's 0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:31.120 not necessarily sexually romantic, you know. But that's that's the 0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:33.280 way in which like the way in which I photograph, 0:44:33.400 --> 0:44:37.279 especially with the moving image, it is very intimate. And 0:44:38.000 --> 0:44:40.960 that's the way that I see people, and that's the 0:44:41.000 --> 0:44:45.640 way that I see men, and that you know, is 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:49.680 built into the language of the film and even you know, 0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:52.200 in the writing process, the images that I was writing, 0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:54.680 uh for each the way that each we're going to 0:44:54.719 --> 0:44:56.080 look at each other. And we actually had to dial 0:44:56.120 --> 0:44:58.200 some back. And I've never seen this because some of 0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:01.080 them were too Like I remember I made an image 0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:06.920 of like Turner like tracing Elwood's leg all the way 0:45:06.960 --> 0:45:09.239 to the scar and then like tracing the scar with 0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:13.319 his finger. And I think it's a beautiful image, right, 0:45:13.360 --> 0:45:14.920 And that's what you would do to a friend. That's 0:45:14.920 --> 0:45:16.680 what I would do to it, like my father, you know, 0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:19.480 like if he had a scar keyloid or something. And 0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:23.800 that's something that's in black families. And in nuclear families, 0:45:24.239 --> 0:45:26.200 but in the context of this film, that would mislead 0:45:26.600 --> 0:45:28.399 the audience, so we kind of had to take that out. 0:45:29.560 --> 0:45:31.719 But you see the intimacy in the way in which 0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:32.920 they talk at each other and the way that they 0:45:32.960 --> 0:45:35.800 look at each other. And I think that every person, 0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:40.399 every black Mail, I would say, speaking at large for everyone, 0:45:40.480 --> 0:45:43.960 were also trying not to has those relationships that are 0:45:44.440 --> 0:45:47.600 romantic but platonic, where it's like, Man, I love you 0:45:48.000 --> 0:45:50.279 like you've been there for me, you see me, I 0:45:50.320 --> 0:45:52.880 see you, and maybe you never say that. But this 0:45:53.000 --> 0:45:55.600 was an opportunity through Colson's characters, because it's already there, 0:45:56.120 --> 0:45:58.359 to kind of lean into it with the camera and 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:01.440 with their gaze at each other and with their proximity. 0:46:01.640 --> 0:46:04.879 Yeah, I picked up on that, you know, as their 0:46:05.239 --> 0:46:09.560 their friendship developed, is that this was this was an 0:46:09.560 --> 0:46:13.040 intimate friendship, and it was presenting black male friendship in 0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:16.960 a very different way than what we've seen, but in 0:46:17.000 --> 0:46:19.600 a way that you know, I certainly granted, I'm a woman, 0:46:19.680 --> 0:46:22.279 so I'm speaking from this standpoint, but I didn't think 0:46:22.280 --> 0:46:27.240 in a way that would hesitate to use the word undermine, 0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:30.160 but in a way that would sort of undermine sort 0:46:30.160 --> 0:46:33.720 of black masculinity, because that's always the charge. It's like, oh, 0:46:33.800 --> 0:46:38.759 they just want to you know, destroy black masculinity. No, 0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:42.319 it's actually to me like it's showcasing a level of 0:46:42.400 --> 0:46:45.959 vulnerability where they're giving each other permission all the time 0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:49.040 to be themselves and to be their most intimate selves 0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:53.080 again without this being about a romance. And so like 0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:58.080 I thought you nailed that very well, you know, definitely. 0:46:57.680 --> 0:46:59.759 It's also like at a moment and a place in 0:46:59.760 --> 0:47:03.200 which is needed most, right, Like this isn't just typical 0:47:03.280 --> 0:47:05.400 high school and two boys just like hanging out in 0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:06.080 the locker room. 0:47:06.200 --> 0:47:07.160 This is like a place in. 0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:11.319 Dream circumstances where they need this because no one else 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:14.400 is showing them this level of affection, you know. 0:47:14.480 --> 0:47:14.880 Frankly. 0:47:16.239 --> 0:47:18.759 So with that being said, how do you hope black 0:47:18.800 --> 0:47:21.840 boys and men feel after seeing nickel boys? 0:47:22.680 --> 0:47:22.879 Yeah? 0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:26.600 I hope that they I want to say, feel seen, 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:31.440 or I hope maybe that they can allow themselves to 0:47:31.440 --> 0:47:36.680 be seen and they can see people without you know, 0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:40.520 the no Homo thing or without the no Diddy or whatever, 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:43.120 yeah whatever, or. 0:47:46.120 --> 0:47:51.480 Guys like we're over there. Yeah, it's like you're over 0:47:51.520 --> 0:47:55.160 a certain age, like you should not still be saying 0:47:55.160 --> 0:48:00.440 about please. 0:47:58.400 --> 0:48:02.200 It's so unnecessary, but like it just shows the way 0:48:02.200 --> 0:48:06.240 in which people are still protective over that other people 0:48:06.320 --> 0:48:10.480 view their sexuality or their gender identity, which I'm unsure 0:48:10.520 --> 0:48:15.840 if is still culturally oppressive or if it's just individually 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:19.960 held onto you know, who can really tell. Yeah, I 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:23.200 hope that there's just another example of ways to be 0:48:23.360 --> 0:48:27.960 in relationships with people that are open and and you're present. 0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:32.440 Because this film has been nominated, what is it a 0:48:32.560 --> 0:48:37.360 Best Picture of Adapted Screenplay. Yeah, yeah, correct, very incredible honors, 0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:40.680 you know, to be to be nominated so second time 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:45.799 out right as a you know Oscar Award nomination. How 0:48:45.840 --> 0:48:48.920 does this feel compared to when you were nominated for 0:48:49.040 --> 0:48:50.040 a Hale County. 0:48:49.880 --> 0:48:52.600 I mean, the Hell County one was unbelievable. I think 0:48:52.640 --> 0:48:54.200 the best part about the Hell County ones and no 0:48:54.200 --> 0:48:57.040 one saw it coming, you know, like when we got nominated, 0:48:57.080 --> 0:48:59.840 everyone was like like how did they do that? And 0:49:00.360 --> 0:49:03.480 we were like Ryan Warner, He's like this guy snatic 0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:06.279 who was like just like really smart and was like, 0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:09.480 this film is powerful. And I think if we have 0:49:09.520 --> 0:49:11.640 a small campaign, because it's all about a campaign like 0:49:11.680 --> 0:49:14.400 these films don't get to where they are without a 0:49:14.400 --> 0:49:16.200 lot of support from the studios and a lot of 0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:20.000 support from the publics and the critics. This time around, 0:49:20.280 --> 0:49:23.560 it's most incredible, honestly, which seems like it's a cop 0:49:23.600 --> 0:49:26.000 out to say the right thing, but it's just true 0:49:26.160 --> 0:49:29.759 that the story of the Doser Boys is like now 0:49:30.200 --> 0:49:32.960 part of the Academy and it's part of cinema history, 0:49:34.040 --> 0:49:38.640 because man, if this film's and this film was all intent, 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:42.440 like the whole process, the writing process, the pitching process, 0:49:42.480 --> 0:49:44.799 it was all like, man, it would be like, it'd 0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:46.160 be great if they let us do this. This is 0:49:46.200 --> 0:49:49.319 so meaningful, This is so meaningful. It doesn't matter how 0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:51.919 it's received. Obviously we want it received well, we think 0:49:51.920 --> 0:49:56.279 we're communicating something specific, But man, like, how cool is 0:49:56.280 --> 0:50:00.200 it to have someone go into a theater and on 0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:04.680 the same screen that they'll they'll watch Interstellar, same screen 0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:08.480 that they watch Poor Things, or the same screen they're 0:50:08.520 --> 0:50:12.279 watching Wicked, they see black subjectivity and black point of view. 0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:14.960 You cannot watch the film without being inside the head 0:50:15.000 --> 0:50:16.280 and eyes of a person of color. 0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:17.360 That doesn't exist. 0:50:17.480 --> 0:50:20.480 That's never happened before, and that is like a cultural 0:50:20.960 --> 0:50:25.279 gesture that personally is just like meaningful. You know, a 0:50:25.400 --> 0:50:28.279 kid watches the thing, watches the film and they're looking 0:50:28.320 --> 0:50:30.439 down on Elwood's body as he ties a string around 0:50:30.480 --> 0:50:33.280 his finger, like that's you, that's us, that's every person, 0:50:33.560 --> 0:50:37.080 all people are equal, whatever, And so the denomination was 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:41.840 like just cool. You know, it's just like we it 0:50:41.880 --> 0:50:44.560 got elevated to a space that we could never have imagined. 0:50:44.760 --> 0:50:44.960 You know. 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:49.080 So will it be a letdown if you do another 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:50.240 movie and it's not nominated? 0:50:50.480 --> 0:50:54.799 No, definitely, definitely. I mean week long depression. You know, 0:50:55.320 --> 0:50:57.440 I can't believe I didn't go three for three? 0:50:57.760 --> 0:51:00.399 Whoe is me? What a hard life? You got? 0:51:00.400 --> 0:51:03.360 It? Like bad a thousands. See, look at the standard 0:51:03.640 --> 0:51:08.359 that you wound up, you wound up setting. Now, as 0:51:08.440 --> 0:51:11.879 you said this before earlier in this podcast, about how 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:14.680 now you see many more athletes that are now in 0:51:14.719 --> 0:51:17.759 the creative space and now feeling comfortable, you know, kind 0:51:17.760 --> 0:51:20.000 of being in that space as someone who had to 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:23.680 make you made this transition in quite successfully, Like what 0:51:24.440 --> 0:51:27.600 would be some of your advice or things you wish 0:51:27.640 --> 0:51:29.840 you knew when you were trying to make that tradition 0:51:30.320 --> 0:51:33.120 transition that could be helpful to other athletes who want 0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:36.640 to kind of follow a similar path that you have followed. 0:51:37.120 --> 0:51:42.080 And honestly, I feel like I made all the right decisions, 0:51:42.480 --> 0:51:47.759 or more so, the universe conspired in my favor, you know, 0:51:47.920 --> 0:51:52.640 because I largely think that most people work hard, most 0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:55.319 people care, and like things happen that are out of 0:51:55.320 --> 0:51:58.040 one's control that like set people off, set them in 0:51:58.040 --> 0:52:01.719 certain ways, and like, you know, more is out of 0:52:01.719 --> 0:52:05.200 control than we realize, you know, until something goes astray, 0:52:05.200 --> 0:52:08.440 and then you're like, oh, yeah, my tire could have 0:52:08.520 --> 0:52:10.600 run flat at any point in time and I could 0:52:10.640 --> 0:52:13.319 have crashed into a car. Probably a bad example, but 0:52:13.400 --> 0:52:18.719 I think, yeah, I think that if I was for 0:52:18.800 --> 0:52:20.920 my younger self, I probably would have tried to be 0:52:21.040 --> 0:52:25.640 myself earlier. I think I waited until I lost my 0:52:25.840 --> 0:52:27.640 mom in basketball. 0:52:27.080 --> 0:52:28.040 To really. 0:52:29.920 --> 0:52:32.400 Say I don't care about what people think, and like, 0:52:33.200 --> 0:52:35.520 if I wanted to read while people were hanging, I 0:52:35.520 --> 0:52:37.120 would just read all day. If I wanted to like 0:52:37.360 --> 0:52:39.040 say something that was on my mind, I would say 0:52:39.040 --> 0:52:40.680 it instead of like holding it back because I didn't 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:43.040 think people would think what I'm saying is cool. I 0:52:43.080 --> 0:52:45.880 like really bought into basketball culture my first couple of 0:52:45.920 --> 0:52:48.000 years especially going to Georgetown. They had a really big 0:52:48.040 --> 0:52:52.080 tradition and all the athletes coming from around the country 0:52:52.280 --> 0:52:53.720 were also steeped in that tradition. 0:52:54.040 --> 0:52:54.200 You know. 0:52:54.200 --> 0:52:56.480 I like wore chain my first year, you know, and 0:52:56.560 --> 0:52:58.040 like super baggy clothes. 0:52:58.200 --> 0:52:58.920 When I was in high. 0:52:58.760 --> 0:53:01.880 School, I was listening to Sublime and wearing Abercrombie, you know, 0:53:02.239 --> 0:53:03.759 and then when I went to Georgetown, I was like 0:53:03.840 --> 0:53:09.000 boo boo, you know, I got my my TEMs. 0:53:09.040 --> 0:53:11.440 Now would be fresh, you know, like those types of things. 0:53:12.640 --> 0:53:15.680 So I would probably encourage those if they're interested, to 0:53:15.880 --> 0:53:18.080 just like continue to find who they are and to 0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:19.480 not worry about what people think. 0:53:19.560 --> 0:53:20.960 What sounds tripe, but it's true. 0:53:22.080 --> 0:53:24.120 This question just popped into my mind just hearing you 0:53:25.160 --> 0:53:27.759 kind of discuss it in that way. Is like, do 0:53:27.800 --> 0:53:31.040 you think sports, maybe not every sport, but just the 0:53:32.600 --> 0:53:36.600 function and the machinery of sports, that it robs athletes 0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:37.400 of their identity? 0:53:37.920 --> 0:53:40.080 Hmm. I love that question. 0:53:40.719 --> 0:53:45.800 Never thought about it before, because it's hard to say 0:53:46.000 --> 0:53:51.360 whether or not something is I would say in the past, Yes, 0:53:51.880 --> 0:53:53.600 I think it's hard to say whether or not something 0:53:53.680 --> 0:53:56.920 is taking something from someone when it's always giving them 0:53:56.960 --> 0:54:01.680 something too, you know, because it's also giving you so 0:54:01.960 --> 0:54:06.520 much about yourself that maybe doesn't have a traditional place 0:54:06.560 --> 0:54:10.600 to be expressed that it just falls into the language 0:54:10.600 --> 0:54:12.759 of sports. But like what it does for confidence, what 0:54:12.880 --> 0:54:15.920 it does for teamwork, what it does for just genuine, 0:54:16.200 --> 0:54:19.520 genuine understanding of what one's physical limits are, what one's 0:54:19.560 --> 0:54:20.160 capable of. 0:54:21.160 --> 0:54:21.880 I think. 0:54:23.160 --> 0:54:25.560 There's dividends in anything that someone wants to do. It's 0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:29.120 just a way of learning about oneself at its minimum, 0:54:29.200 --> 0:54:33.560 you know, and most people aren't pushed. Most people, I believe, 0:54:33.640 --> 0:54:36.399 aren't pushed. I think most people exist and they are 0:54:36.520 --> 0:54:41.080 challenged in like utilitarian ways. But like to push yourself 0:54:41.120 --> 0:54:43.960 past what you thought you would do only because you 0:54:44.040 --> 0:54:46.560 never thought that there was something beyond what you thought 0:54:46.640 --> 0:54:50.200 was a limit is like human development. Like that is 0:54:50.239 --> 0:54:55.399 a powerful thing. But I think as sports culture has 0:54:55.440 --> 0:54:59.360 existed previously, I would say that it cut off ways 0:54:59.400 --> 0:55:03.080 of expressing oneself, probably in the same way that being 0:55:03.120 --> 0:55:06.920 a college athlete, especially at a Division one big school level, 0:55:07.239 --> 0:55:12.240 I think is an honor of privilege. It also limits 0:55:12.280 --> 0:55:14.719 the classes you can take right like I couldn't. I 0:55:14.719 --> 0:55:17.520 couldn't take any courses that were from three pm to 0:55:17.560 --> 0:55:20.279 the end of the day. So what am I going 0:55:20.360 --> 0:55:22.600 to study? There's only certain things that I can study. 0:55:23.120 --> 0:55:25.080 But it's also given me the identity of a basketball 0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:27.279 player and all those other things. So it's twofold. It's 0:55:27.320 --> 0:55:31.600 like giving it's it's robbing me of those other courses, 0:55:31.680 --> 0:55:34.560 those other academic pursuits, but it's given me so much 0:55:34.640 --> 0:55:35.839 as an athlete for both. 0:55:36.120 --> 0:55:40.200 Yeah, are you amazed or how amazed are you that 0:55:40.280 --> 0:55:41.560 Jeff Green is still playing? 0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:45.680 Yo, Uncle Jeff they called him, We called him Uncle 0:55:45.719 --> 0:55:48.440 Jeff when he was on the team, and now he's 0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:50.440 actually uncle actually uncle Jeff. 0:55:50.280 --> 0:55:52.920 Actually somebody he's the uncle of the league. 0:55:52.920 --> 0:55:55.800 But the thing is is, like it's not surprising because 0:55:55.880 --> 0:55:58.480 when he came and played with us, like you know, 0:55:58.719 --> 0:56:01.759 Alonso or Pat or the Kemba would come and like 0:56:01.920 --> 0:56:05.080 train with him, and he was like beating them and 0:56:05.160 --> 0:56:08.360 like doing things where you're like, he, how is this 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:09.560 dude eighteen years old? 0:56:09.920 --> 0:56:13.279 He made no sense. He made no sense, you know 0:56:13.320 --> 0:56:13.600 what I mean? 0:56:13.600 --> 0:56:17.960 Where the person is just clearly more talented, more physically, 0:56:18.480 --> 0:56:21.600 he has prowess, Like so he had that like Lebron, 0:56:22.160 --> 0:56:24.040 you know, grown madness to him. 0:56:24.600 --> 0:56:27.440 He could probably what if Jeff place forever? 0:56:29.719 --> 0:56:32.600 It's I'm like, I remember him vividly in college and 0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:34.520 it's like that dude is still pleasing. 0:56:34.600 --> 0:56:36.160 Yeah, yeah, you know. 0:56:37.160 --> 0:56:40.600 It's pretty remarkable. You know, people talk about Lebron beating 0:56:40.600 --> 0:56:42.600 father Time. I was like Jeff Green did too. Man, 0:56:43.000 --> 0:56:45.680 he did a lumped father Time up a couple of times. 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:50.120 So I usually end the podcast with what I call 0:56:50.239 --> 0:56:51.080 a messy question. 0:56:51.680 --> 0:56:54.040 All right, So those weren't messy questions. 0:56:54.960 --> 0:56:56.799 It comes to the messy question. This is the one 0:56:56.840 --> 0:56:59.640 design to get you that headline that surely you probably 0:56:59.640 --> 0:57:04.640 need right before the askers to do it. Who is 0:57:05.000 --> 0:57:09.600 the greatest Hoya? Is it Patrick Ewing or is it Alan? I? 0:57:10.280 --> 0:57:12.560 Oh, so you're making me choose between those two? I 0:57:12.600 --> 0:57:14.640 am so I was gonna say Junkyard dog. You know 0:57:14.680 --> 0:57:22.200 what I'm saying, Like, I'm just kidding that out right, right, man, 0:57:22.280 --> 0:57:24.920 that's a really good question because I don't believe in best, 0:57:25.000 --> 0:57:27.040 but I know the spirit of what you're asking, right 0:57:27.160 --> 0:57:27.440 it is. 0:57:27.680 --> 0:57:31.560 Yeah, it's not necessarily even though I was surprised he 0:57:31.840 --> 0:57:34.200 said this, like Magic Johnson said Kobe was the greatest Laker, 0:57:34.440 --> 0:57:37.280 right yeah, And so you know, to that end, it 0:57:37.360 --> 0:57:40.400 is like who is the greatest hoya is it? Is 0:57:40.400 --> 0:57:40.880 it ewing? 0:57:41.040 --> 0:57:44.960 You know I'm going to say and I know I 0:57:45.000 --> 0:57:48.680 know at junior too, and this is this I apologize. 0:57:49.120 --> 0:57:53.480 I apologize, you know. You know I'm going to take 0:57:53.560 --> 0:57:58.760 a really the scope of what we can consider to 0:57:58.840 --> 0:58:02.640 be why one is better than the other. If we're 0:58:02.640 --> 0:58:04.640 gonna say that, I'm gonna say a on Irison because 0:58:04.640 --> 0:58:06.560 I think his story. 0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:14.480 Being arrested in high school. You know, his size, I. 0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:18.320 Think his you know, his relationship to black culture, like 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:23.160 the hoods, the sagging pants, the carrying like he he 0:58:23.440 --> 0:58:26.760 has a fullness in as it relates to basketball that 0:58:26.800 --> 0:58:29.560 I think very few athletes in general have to their sports. 0:58:30.440 --> 0:58:34.160 He actually changed culture sort of multiple times and became 0:58:34.200 --> 0:58:37.919 an icon from everything from like underdogs to just trying 0:58:37.960 --> 0:58:41.760 to stay true to your community. And so I'll say, AI, 0:58:42.120 --> 0:58:45.680 but I love Pat and he's a genius and a 0:58:45.720 --> 0:58:49.320 phenom and contributed to basketball in ways that difficult to express. 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:53.280 I gotta go there now. You said before about how 0:58:53.320 --> 0:58:55.120 those guys used to come back and you all will 0:58:55.120 --> 0:58:58.320 hoop against him. So did you get to play against 0:58:59.000 --> 0:59:01.800 Pat you all the time. 0:59:01.120 --> 0:59:03.120 All the time? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. What was that like? 0:59:03.680 --> 0:59:05.720 I mean he was just blocking everyone's shots, you know. 0:59:06.080 --> 0:59:08.760 I mean the kimbe was was the most interesting because 0:59:09.120 --> 0:59:14.080 I think he was the most sneaky, you know. Alonzo 0:59:14.280 --> 0:59:17.200 was just like a physical beast. Pat was like really agile. 0:59:17.360 --> 0:59:20.960 As I remember, the best or the most interesting moment 0:59:21.000 --> 0:59:23.840 of playing against pros was Jordan came and played with 0:59:23.920 --> 0:59:29.160 us with Randy Moss, right right, real surprise to everyone. 0:59:29.240 --> 0:59:30.120 Okay, so what happened? 0:59:30.160 --> 0:59:32.320 So this is when Craig Eestick was coaching, and he 0:59:32.400 --> 0:59:34.960 had he was like, all right, guys, someone's coming to 0:59:35.000 --> 0:59:35.600 the gym today. 0:59:35.640 --> 0:59:37.480 I don't want you guys to take any pictures. Just 0:59:37.640 --> 0:59:39.120 act like everything's normal. 0:59:39.040 --> 0:59:41.680 And pros are always coming by, so we're like, all right, whatever, 0:59:42.080 --> 0:59:46.240 and then like the door's open, Phil Collins walks in and. 0:59:46.200 --> 0:59:48.440 We're like, hell is Phil Collin's doing him? 0:59:49.000 --> 0:59:51.840 And Michael Jordan walks in with the glow obviously you know, 0:59:51.920 --> 0:59:55.240 everyone's like blinded their eyes. And then Randy Moss walks in, 0:59:55.840 --> 0:59:58.400 and Jordan was coming out retirement playing for the Wizard, 0:59:58.480 --> 1:00:00.120 so he wanted to come get a run in. And 1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:02.640 I think maybe because Randy Moss was just part of 1:00:02.640 --> 1:00:05.200 the brand or his friend he came to and I 1:00:05.200 --> 1:00:07.520 don't think anyone has ever told this story. I'll say 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:11.240 it really quick. Randy Moss got a still and drop 1:00:11.360 --> 1:00:17.080 step dunked on Reuben Boomsay Boomshe with the most unbelievable 1:00:17.120 --> 1:00:22.160 athleticism and resounding bang. All I remember is turning around 1:00:22.240 --> 1:00:24.960 because everyone's running this way. I just remember Randy Moss 1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:27.200 like getting the ball and like looking at him like 1:00:27.280 --> 1:00:30.400 drop stepping and the rim being right here and his 1:00:30.640 --> 1:00:31.080 arms just. 1:00:31.040 --> 1:00:32.160 Being parallel with it. 1:00:32.920 --> 1:00:35.600 Boom and Rooms was a Boomsha was a shot blocker, 1:00:35.960 --> 1:00:39.000 and he was shameless to seven foot one too. He's 1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:41.360 from Camroon, Like he doesn't care about getting dunked on. 1:00:41.680 --> 1:00:43.600 He's going for the block, and it was just like 1:00:43.680 --> 1:00:46.480 so beautiful. And Randy Moss like six to two or something, 1:00:46.520 --> 1:00:47.360 six three or. 1:00:47.960 --> 1:00:52.800 Maybe like six four bunnies. I would have never. 1:00:52.840 --> 1:00:55.400 Yeah, those bunnies. Have you seen videos of him and 1:00:55.480 --> 1:00:57.160 Jay will though, Yeah, yeah, yeah out of. 1:00:57.160 --> 1:00:59.320 West Virginia and they yeah, I mean everybody said that 1:00:59.520 --> 1:01:04.840 really very easily been a professional basketball player. That's what 1:01:04.920 --> 1:01:08.040 I'm just like, well, what that was? When Jordan was 1:01:08.080 --> 1:01:10.440 with the Wizards, That's when I affectionately call him his 1:01:10.520 --> 1:01:11.320 power forward. 1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:12.800 Days because he was. 1:01:14.280 --> 1:01:17.560 A little different before and he's just like he just 1:01:17.680 --> 1:01:20.400 doesn't continue to rise, you know, and then have to 1:01:20.440 --> 1:01:23.280 just do the do it. 1:01:23.440 --> 1:01:25.520 But a little bit below the rim I used to 1:01:25.560 --> 1:01:28.520 seeing him play. Oh, that must have been that must 1:01:28.520 --> 1:01:29.040 have been great. 1:01:29.240 --> 1:01:32.440 Yeah, I mean definitely a memory to keep, a memory 1:01:32.440 --> 1:01:32.960 to keep. 1:01:34.200 --> 1:01:35.760 Or mel I want to thank you so much for 1:01:36.120 --> 1:01:39.040 joining me here on the podcast of good Luck with 1:01:39.200 --> 1:01:43.160 the nominations. For all those out there listening and watching, 1:01:43.320 --> 1:01:46.480 make sure you go see Nickel Boys. You can get 1:01:46.560 --> 1:01:49.760 on Amazon by the way, Yeah, yep, it is on 1:01:49.840 --> 1:01:52.400 Amazon stream last night, so yes, you can go check 1:01:52.400 --> 1:01:55.960 it out. But it's it's really a beautiful, majestic film. 1:01:56.240 --> 1:01:58.440 That might be a way to describe it, but it's 1:01:58.480 --> 1:02:01.080 a great Yeah, it's a great film. And U now 1:02:01.120 --> 1:02:04.720 I look forward to reading the book and because you 1:02:04.840 --> 1:02:08.080 really the way that you presented it, it would be 1:02:09.280 --> 1:02:11.240 it just makes you more curious, is about like wow, 1:02:11.280 --> 1:02:14.560 I wonder what the whole you know, kind of story 1:02:14.600 --> 1:02:16.640 behind this is or like what these you know? You 1:02:16.760 --> 1:02:18.720 just you just wanted a little more. And I always 1:02:18.720 --> 1:02:22.680 prefer to leave a movie like actually wanting more as 1:02:22.680 --> 1:02:24.000 a past of the opposite feelings. 1:02:24.080 --> 1:02:26.120 So what's great because the book is full, it like 1:02:26.240 --> 1:02:27.200 fills on all the details. 1:02:27.240 --> 1:02:28.880 And you know, yeah, I figured as much. I was like, 1:02:28.880 --> 1:02:30.280 that's why I was like, oh, it really made me 1:02:30.320 --> 1:02:32.520 curious about the book. But beautifully shot. So good luck 1:02:32.560 --> 1:02:33.040 with everything. 1:02:33.160 --> 1:02:34.400 Thank you very much for having me. 1:02:35.200 --> 1:02:37.320 One more segment to go, and you guys know what 1:02:37.360 --> 1:02:41.480 that means. I got questions to answer up next, your 1:02:41.560 --> 1:02:46.440 viewer slash listener questions, and I have plenty of answers 1:02:46.480 --> 1:02:57.240 coming up next on the final segment of Spolatives. Normally, 1:02:57.280 --> 1:03:00.000 as you guys know, I wrap every episode of Politics 1:03:00.040 --> 1:03:02.919 by taking a question from you all about something that's 1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:05.120 been on your mind. But today I decided to use 1:03:05.160 --> 1:03:07.600 this time to address something that is on my mind 1:03:07.800 --> 1:03:11.640 given some very recent events. In the last week, my 1:03:11.720 --> 1:03:15.160 good friend, my sister joy and reid Or was fired 1:03:15.160 --> 1:03:18.400 by MSNBC. A lot of you are big fans of 1:03:18.400 --> 1:03:20.720 the Readout as am I. That was her nightly news 1:03:20.760 --> 1:03:24.320 program that was ONSNBC, and she no longer will have 1:03:24.360 --> 1:03:27.840 that program. And we look across the landscape of news media, 1:03:28.080 --> 1:03:31.880 especially nightly news, you will see that there are a 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:34.720 lot of faces of color that are now absent, and 1:03:34.840 --> 1:03:37.520 especially when it comes to black women. I believe now 1:03:37.680 --> 1:03:40.800 the only black women in primetime in nightly news are 1:03:40.960 --> 1:03:45.920 Laura Coats and Abby Phillips at CNN. Now the reason 1:03:45.920 --> 1:03:50.760 why Joy's dismissal it sparked a lot of outrage, certainly 1:03:50.920 --> 1:03:53.240 a lot of fear, but I think particularly in the 1:03:53.320 --> 1:03:56.800 journalism community, it let us know something that we've always known, 1:03:57.000 --> 1:03:59.640 is that, especially in this time, in this climate, that 1:03:59.680 --> 1:04:05.400 black journalists, black media is especially vulnerable because of who 1:04:05.640 --> 1:04:08.400 is in office now. As you know, Joanne Reid has 1:04:08.440 --> 1:04:11.920 been a very staunch critic of Donald Trump, as have I, 1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:14.520 as have others, not just black folks, but other folks 1:04:14.520 --> 1:04:17.440 in particular. You look at Jim Acosta also let go 1:04:17.560 --> 1:04:20.080 by seeing n he was another one who is a 1:04:20.120 --> 1:04:23.120 primary critic of Trump. And so it's hard not to 1:04:23.120 --> 1:04:25.880 see these decisions being made and look at it from 1:04:25.920 --> 1:04:29.640 a sixty four thousand view, which is are these moves 1:04:29.680 --> 1:04:33.200 being made to appease the person who is occupying the 1:04:33.240 --> 1:04:36.360 White House or are these simply a result of how 1:04:36.560 --> 1:04:39.680 the television businesses can go, which is very fickle. My 1:04:39.800 --> 1:04:42.000 read on it is this, and I didn't use the 1:04:42.000 --> 1:04:44.680 word read on purpose, though I guess it can serve 1:04:44.800 --> 1:04:47.360 a little bit as a double Endtonda is that joy 1:04:47.480 --> 1:04:50.160 Ann Reid has been a strong voice. She's been a 1:04:50.200 --> 1:04:53.400 tremendous voice. She's one of the smartest people on television, 1:04:54.000 --> 1:04:56.040 and for her to not have a show at this 1:04:56.120 --> 1:04:59.240 critical time, I think we're all worse off for that. 1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:03.680 And as we go forward and as we're charting what 1:05:03.800 --> 1:05:07.200 this age of media looks like, one thing we know 1:05:07.360 --> 1:05:09.880 for sure is that the media is not at its 1:05:09.920 --> 1:05:13.760 strongest when strong voices are eliminated. A reminder that in 1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:18.360 order for a democracy to thrive, you need a free press, 1:05:18.800 --> 1:05:22.400 and unfortunately, because of corporate journalism, is getting harder and 1:05:22.480 --> 1:05:26.680 harder for authentic voices like Joys to be able to 1:05:26.720 --> 1:05:30.400 be platformed, to be supported, and not just supported by 1:05:30.440 --> 1:05:32.680 the masses, because a lot of people supported Joyne Read 1:05:32.720 --> 1:05:35.120 in terms of her audience, but supported by the people 1:05:35.400 --> 1:05:39.960 that actually sign your paycheck. So wishing my homie Joyanne 1:05:40.000 --> 1:05:41.920 Read all the best. I'm sure her next step will 1:05:41.960 --> 1:05:44.920 be even bigger and bolder than the one that she's leaving, 1:05:45.360 --> 1:05:48.120 and I hope you all out there support her in 1:05:48.160 --> 1:05:51.320 whatever her next move is. Now, as I said, a 1:05:51.360 --> 1:05:53.960 bit earlier. Usually this time is reserved for questions from 1:05:54.000 --> 1:05:56.520 you all that will still continue. So if you have 1:05:56.560 --> 1:05:58.120 a question for me, you can hit me up on 1:05:58.200 --> 1:06:01.800 social media or email. I'm at Jamail Hill across all 1:06:01.840 --> 1:06:06.240 social media platforms, Twitter, Instagram, Fan based, Blue Sky, and threads, 1:06:06.480 --> 1:06:09.600 please use the hashtags politics. You also have the option 1:06:09.680 --> 1:06:12.320 of emailing me as Politics twenty twenty four at gmail 1:06:12.360 --> 1:06:15.320 dot com. You can send me a video of your question, 1:06:15.440 --> 1:06:18.120 but please make sure it is thirty seconds or less. 1:06:18.360 --> 1:06:21.720 Don't forget to follow and subscribe to Spolitics on iHeart 1:06:21.800 --> 1:06:25.600 and followspolitics pod on Instagram and tiktoks. Politics is spelled 1:06:25.960 --> 1:06:30.080 s po l I tics. A new episode of Spolitics 1:06:30.120 --> 1:06:33.200 drops every Thursday on iHeart Podcasts or wherever you get 1:06:33.200 --> 1:06:37.120 your podcasts. This is politics where sports and politics don't 1:06:37.160 --> 1:06:42.760 just mix, they matter. Politics is the production of iHeart 1:06:42.800 --> 1:06:46.640 Podcasts and The Unbothered Network. I'm your host Jamail Hill. 1:06:47.120 --> 1:06:50.760 Executive producer is Taylor Shakog. Lucas Hymen is head of 1:06:50.800 --> 1:06:54.960 audio and executive producer. Original music for Spolitics provided by 1:06:55.040 --> 1:06:57.080 Kyle Vis from wiz Fx.