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Speaker 1: Hey, what's up everybody. I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to

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Speaker 1: politics and I heard podcast and unbothered production. Time to

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Speaker 1: get spolitical? All right? This week is officially the last

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Speaker 1: week of Black History Month, and I thought what better

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Speaker 1: way to end the month than to go out with

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Speaker 1: a little current Black history. Now. History was made this

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Speaker 1: week when Howard University's men's swimming and diving team won

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Speaker 1: the Northeast Conference championship for the second time in three

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Speaker 1: years now. When the Bison won the title back in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, it marked the first time in thirty

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Speaker 1: four years that Howard had won a swimming and diving title.

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Speaker 1: Howard's achievement is especially significant because right now Howard is

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Speaker 1: the only HBCU left with a Division one swimming and

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Speaker 1: diving team. Howard being the last one standing, or rather

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Speaker 1: swimming is really counter to the history of competitive swimming

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Speaker 1: at historically black colleges and university As recently as the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, over twenty HBCUs offered swimming as a varsity sport.

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Speaker 1: Notable figures such as Andrew Young and Samuel L. Jackson

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Speaker 1: both swim competitively when they attended Howard and Moorehouse respectively. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: over time, the number of HBCUs offered swimming as a

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Speaker 1: varsity sport dwindled because of resources, facilities, and interests. But

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Speaker 1: like a lot of things in this country, some of

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Speaker 1: that lack of interest can be attributed to Tadai racism. Now,

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Speaker 1: I learned to swim growing up because my mother is

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Speaker 1: a lifeguard and she swam when she was growing up.

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Speaker 1: But that wasn't the case for a lot of black

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Speaker 1: kids who are now my age, or grew up in

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Speaker 1: my mother's generation or kids.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: If you study the history of race in this country,

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Speaker 1: you will find one of the most common vehicles of segregation,

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Speaker 1: white supremacy, and racial violence was the public swimming pool.

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Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirties, the Works Progress Administration was a

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Speaker 1: program created under former President Franklin D. Roosevelt, and it

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Speaker 1: was part of his transformative New Deal. The WPA was

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Speaker 1: an infrastructure program that put thousands of Americans to work

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Speaker 1: to lift the country out of the depression by having

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Speaker 1: them build road, schools, and public pools. Up until that point,

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Speaker 1: pools had largely been considered something for the elite and

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Speaker 1: the wealthy, but under the WPA, over eight hundred new

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Speaker 1: pools were built, and another three hundred were renovated. And

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Speaker 1: these were elaborate pools. I mean some had sand, immaculate landscaping,

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Speaker 1: and they were huge. The working class was finally going

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Speaker 1: to be able to enjoy cooling off in style on

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Speaker 1: a hot summer day. Well, not everybody, because this was

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Speaker 1: not a time where America was great for black people.

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Speaker 1: We were largely ostracized from the Great American pool Party.

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Speaker 1: While some pools were built in black areas for black

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Speaker 1: residents to use, most were built for the comfort and

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Speaker 1: convenience of white people. In the North and the South,

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Speaker 1: there were whites only pools and segregated pools. White people

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Speaker 1: made it clear they did not want to swim with us,

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Speaker 1: As the Daily Shows D. S. Sloan explains, it was

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Speaker 1: because of knees and well ignorance and white supremacy, but also.

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Speaker 3: Needs cities didn't build pools and black neighborhoods, and white

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Speaker 3: people didn't want us in their neighborhood pool. Parshally, we

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Speaker 3: were concerned about black men intermingling with white women in

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Speaker 3: such a sexual atmosphere. I mean, I know it might.

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Speaker 3: It's so ridiculous to think of a public pool as

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Speaker 3: a sexual atmosphere. But this was the nineteen twenty they

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Speaker 3: were seeing knees for the first time. I'm talking the top,

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Speaker 3: the bottom, that little knuckle part in the middle, the

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Speaker 3: whole circle.

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Speaker 1: Woo have you seen these? Stupid but true? And speaking

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Speaker 1: of stupid but true, the other reason white people didn't

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Speaker 1: want black people at the pools is because they believed

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Speaker 1: black people were unsanitary and unclean. Now, there's so many

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Speaker 1: jokes to be made there, but I'm gonna just let

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Speaker 1: y'all have fun with that one. Do your best. At

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Speaker 1: some pools, black people could use the pools on certain days,

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Speaker 1: and white supremacists also often use violence to let black

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Speaker 1: people know they were not welcome. In Pittsburgh, in nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty five, a black nine year old was badly beaten

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Speaker 1: by a group of white kids. When the nine year

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Speaker 1: old's mother reported the incident to police, the police officer

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Speaker 1: told her quote, why can't you people use the Washington

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Speaker 1: Boulevard pool?

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Speaker 2: I'm leaving you people? What do you mean do you people?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean you people? Saint Louis's first race

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Speaker 1: riot was over a pool. In nineteen forty nine, White

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Speaker 1: people violently attacked about forty black youth who showed up

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Speaker 1: at the integrated pool fairground park. The white people attacked

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Speaker 1: them with bats, bricks, pipes, and knives. The incident required

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Speaker 1: four hundred police and twelve hours to calm things down.

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Speaker 1: Saint Louis, though, chose to resegregate its pools after that,

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Speaker 1: and it saved that way until segregation was legally undone

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Speaker 1: with the nineteen fifty four Brown Versus Board of Education

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court decision and the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act.

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Speaker 1: But rather than comply with the decision or I don't know,

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Speaker 1: simply learn not to be racist, a lot of cities

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Speaker 1: and community instead chose to simply shut down their public pools.

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Speaker 1: As it was, there wasn't a whole lot of public

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Speaker 1: pools that were built in black communities, and in those communities,

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Speaker 1: particularly the larger cities where there were whites and blacks,

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Speaker 1: once white flight took hold, a lot of these by

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Speaker 1: default black communities didn't have a pool. So black people

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Speaker 1: not only had to deal with not having access to

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Speaker 1: a pool, they also had to deal with the PTSD

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Speaker 1: of being racially traumatized or simply wanting to swim. The

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Speaker 1: lasting effect of that is this sixty four percent of

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Speaker 1: black kids can't swim. According to the Centers for Disease

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Speaker 1: Control and Prevention, five to nineteen year olds who are

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Speaker 1: black are five times more likely to drown in a

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Speaker 1: swimming pool compared to their white peers, and black children

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Speaker 1: ages eleven and twelve were ten times more likely to drown.

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Speaker 1: Now this also has translated to overall interest in swimming.

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Speaker 1: Less than two percent of swimmers at the NCAA level

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Speaker 1: are black, which brings me back to Howard, considering how

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Speaker 1: it was dangerous at one point for us to even

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Speaker 1: try to swim. It makes their most recent national championship

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Speaker 1: that much more special. Despite the obstacles and threats to

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Speaker 1: our community constantly has faced in swimming or otherwise, it

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Speaker 1: seems we can always rely on one thing, our resilience.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jamelle Hill, and I approved this message all right.

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Speaker 1: The Oscars are this weekend, and I am pleased to

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Speaker 1: be joined today by someone who is up for not one,

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Speaker 1: but two Oscars, one for Best Picture and another for

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Speaker 1: Best Adapted Screenplay for his arresting film Nickel Boys, which

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Speaker 1: is based on Colson Whitehead's novel. And this is not

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Speaker 1: the first time I Guess has been nominated for an

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Speaker 1: Oscar In twenty nineteen, he was also nominated for his

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Speaker 1: documentary Hell County, This Morning, This Evening. He has had

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Speaker 1: a truly fascinating journey into film. Who was once a

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Speaker 1: Georgetown basketball player with NBA dreams, and after his basketball

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Speaker 1: career didn't pan out, he became inspired to follow his

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Speaker 1: creative vision. Coming up next on Politics photographer and director

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Speaker 1: Ramel Ross. So, Ramel, I'm going to start by asking

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Speaker 1: you a question I ask every guest that appears on politics,

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Speaker 1: and that is name an athlete or a sports moment

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Speaker 1: that made you love sports?

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Speaker 2: Wow?

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Speaker 4: What a question? Well, an athlete? I unfortunately I don't

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Speaker 4: have a unique answer. It's Michael Jordan, like he's always been,

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Speaker 4: you know, that idol and that icon. But a sports

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Speaker 4: moment for me, I like that better because that's like,

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Speaker 4: really really really personal, I think, And it might have

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Speaker 4: been when I was playing basketball in Upper Marlboro, Maryland,

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Speaker 4: with I was like my friend group, you know, four

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Speaker 4: or five friends and I like kids that we didn't

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Speaker 4: get along with, and like were the type of like

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Speaker 4: friend groups that would fight. And I somehow think we

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Speaker 4: figured out that we would fight by playing basketball and

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Speaker 4: it starts to rain and it's black top and we're

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Speaker 4: all like fifth and sixth grade, and it's it's like

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Speaker 4: as memorable as like watching the finals with like, you know, Jordan,

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Speaker 4: and I don't think Jordan ever played the Knicks or

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Speaker 4: the suns or something where like every point mattered and

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Speaker 4: everyone's drenched and no one has a real relationship to

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Speaker 4: like their skills because it's wet and like it's it's

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Speaker 4: getting dark, and I remember, uh, you know, I think

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Speaker 4: the moment's so meaningful.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know if I don't remember if we

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Speaker 2: want or not.

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Speaker 1: That was gonna be my next question.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, who won?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just remember how epic it was and being

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Speaker 4: like wow, like this is a place where or the

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Speaker 4: epic happens, like you can participate in the epic before

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Speaker 4: you have the language.

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Speaker 2: Of the epic.

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Speaker 1: Now, was there a point where you recognized in your

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Speaker 1: athletic upbringing that your skill set was a little more advanced,

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Speaker 1: that you potentially had something that would last beyond say

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Speaker 1: high school or you know, the sort of the traditional

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Speaker 1: stoppage time for most youth that are involved.

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Speaker 4: In sports, in that my sports would translate to something else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that you might be able to get a college

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Speaker 1: scholarship or maybe even be a professional, Like, was there

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Speaker 1: a moment when you registered, like I think I'm a

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Speaker 1: little bit above what the normal level expectation.

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Speaker 2: Is for this. No, because I never was.

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Speaker 4: So I was a really late bloomer and I got

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Speaker 4: into basketball seriously probably when I was a freshman in

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Speaker 4: high school. And so I was always good at things

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Speaker 4: and like tried really hard and played well, and it's

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Speaker 4: like the best on my team then. And he looked

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Speaker 4: at me and he was like, you know, you've got it,

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Speaker 4: and I'm like, what do you mean, Like, what's it?

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Speaker 4: He's like, I played with Grant and Hill at Tough Lakes,

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Speaker 4: Like I played Division two basketball. If you like, did

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Speaker 4: this college workout, I think you could go to the NBA.

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Speaker 4: And I was like all right, and I did it,

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Speaker 4: and within a year I made varsity and then I

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Speaker 4: did one more year and I was top one hundred

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Speaker 4: players in the country. It was like really fast. And

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Speaker 4: I think that translates to the idea of hard work,

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Speaker 4: or the idea of having a plan, or the idea

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Speaker 4: of discipline, because it was like shocking. If you work

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Speaker 4: consciously hard, the progress you have.

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Speaker 1: And now with that, I mean, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: your dream may have been before, you know, basketball kind

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Speaker 1: of really entered the picture. But like at some point

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Speaker 1: I assume that you entertained like, hey, I really want

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Speaker 1: to be like a professional. So what was it like

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Speaker 1: to what was that process like for you to realize

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Speaker 1: that that was a goal that could be doable for.

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Speaker 4: You futurely looking at that and saying, well, it seems

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Speaker 4: like I'm always getting better, you know, and is it

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Speaker 4: possible to continue to get better to play with, you know,

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Speaker 4: those who are playing at the highest level. And I'm

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Speaker 4: lucky to play basketball in the Northern Virginia sort of

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Speaker 4: DC area, and so the talent is just off the charts.

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Speaker 2: So you can measure yourself almost at all times.

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Speaker 4: You can go to a gym, you can go play

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Speaker 4: in the league, and you can play against pro players

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Speaker 4: they're there, or college players, and there's nothing more interesting

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Speaker 4: than testing yourself against some one who is at the

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Speaker 4: place that you'd like to be and after getting over

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Speaker 4: the nerves, being like, wow, I'm not too far away,

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 1: Now, Even then, despite your interest in sports, So but

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Speaker 1: did you have interest in like photography, which I know,

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Speaker 1: became like a huge component of your career or filmmaking.

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Speaker 1: Like were there were their creative desires even then that

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Speaker 1: you you wanted to fulfill.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there were, there were, and they got sidelined because

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Speaker 4: I became obsessed with sports, Like I drew a lot

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Speaker 4: as a kid, like I had really you know, super

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Speaker 4: middle class parents, very supportive, like they allowed my sister

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Speaker 4: and how to do anything and supported us. So we

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Speaker 4: tried the piano, we did karate, you know, like my

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Speaker 4: sister did ballet, and I was attached to drawing and

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Speaker 4: when I think about it, probably not element to your

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Speaker 4: school like poetry and writing. But then once I found sports,

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Speaker 4: and once I yeah, I kind of just didn't, Like

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Speaker 4: I stopped almost reading completely because you know, I just

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Speaker 4: watch tapes, like I would just watch basketball games and

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Speaker 4: like you would study the game and I would be practicing.

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Speaker 4: I remember my dad told me once, which is like

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Speaker 4: it's scarring now that I think about it. He was like,

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Speaker 4: you know, if you're not working out, you know that

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Speaker 4: there's someone that is.

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Speaker 2: And I was just like, what do you mean?

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Speaker 4: You know, like there's and then so every time you're

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Speaker 4: sitting down, you're like, there's someone else who's practicing and

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Speaker 4: they're getting better and that just I just only played basketball,

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Speaker 4: which is why I think I excelled so fast.

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Speaker 2: But it was like extreme.

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Speaker 1: Now Georgetown, where you you played collegeball, they that wasn't

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Speaker 1: because you dealt with an injury in high school. I mean,

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Speaker 1: were they on the radar before the injury or how

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Speaker 1: did that materialize?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Like I got good so fast that I became on

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Speaker 4: like on all the you know, major D one school's radars.

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Speaker 4: But they all wanted to see me play my senior

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Speaker 4: year before they offered me a scholarship. But Georgetown, because

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Speaker 4: I was a local kid and I wanted to go

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Speaker 4: there because of Iverson, they offered me before my senior year.

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Speaker 4: I just took it because what's better being close to

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Speaker 4: home play at Iverson shadow I was a point guard.

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Speaker 4: And then that summer I got injured, and to George

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Speaker 4: Stown's credit, you know, the first thing that my parents

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Speaker 4: and I thought was like, oh, they're going to take

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Speaker 4: the scholarship away, and they could because they have the power.

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Speaker 4: And they were like, oh no, of course they're still coming,

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Speaker 4: like will help you get better in hell? And you know,

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Speaker 4: literally they said if basketball, if you don't end up,

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Speaker 4: you know, being an amazing basketball player or taking us

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Speaker 4: to the championship like we hope you do, or you'll

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Speaker 4: get a great education and you'll be shuttled off into

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Speaker 4: the world. And it's like, I didn't know that those

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Speaker 4: things happened. You know that schools cared about individuals and yeah,

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Speaker 4: and their team, their players.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a bit of a foreign concept. Wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, you'll still you're caring about my personal development. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just what I can do for you in the basketball court.

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Speaker 1: But even you know, getting an opportunity to go to Georgetown,

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Speaker 1: which is a fantastic school. And by the way, count

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Speaker 1: me among those black people who, because obviously grew up

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Speaker 1: watching the John Thompson here, I totally thought Georgetown was

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Speaker 1: an HBCU. Se No, Georgetown was like, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: like a whole elite university that is like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: basketball was something they were obviously very good.

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Speaker 2: I did not know this smell. It was one of

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Speaker 2: the most embarrassing realizations of my life. Too.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know either. I committed already, I had already

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Speaker 4: committed up hot up.

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Speaker 1: You before you committed, you thought George was a HB Yeah, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean Georgetown was like going off to your scholarship. I was like,

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Speaker 4: can I sign yesterday? Like I'd love to sign yesterday.

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Speaker 4: I know that's not possible, but we can do it now.

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Speaker 4: It was really funny. I was with my cousin Danika,

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Speaker 4: and she made her promise not to say this publicly,

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Speaker 4: but now that you have the same sort of misstep,

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Speaker 4: and I don't.

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Speaker 1: We're in the trust tree. Yes.

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Speaker 4: And my uncle Kenyatta were like in a van outside

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Speaker 4: my cousin's house in Upper Marlborough and something. Somebody said

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Speaker 4: something and I was like, you know, HBCU and.

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Speaker 2: She was like and I was like, wait, what do

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Speaker 2: you mean.

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Speaker 4: She's like it's not I'm like, but I mean you've

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Speaker 4: seen the team, and she's like romel, like, I don't

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Speaker 4: know if you're going to make it at Georgetown, if

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Speaker 4: you if you're if you, yeah, it's like really embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: Listen. It was the same with University of Miami during

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Speaker 1: the height of like the Hurricanes. I didn't I thought

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Speaker 1: it was a black school. Yeah yeah, this is a

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Speaker 1: rich private school.

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: But you know your experience of going there, because I

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Speaker 1: think you were on the teams with like Jeff Green

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Speaker 1: was one of your teammates. Yeah, and it was somebody

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Speaker 1: else whose name. I mean, I know you had a

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Speaker 1: lot of other teammates.

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Speaker 4: Specific came in, like I came in two thousand with

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Speaker 4: Mike Sweetney, Mike Sweetney. Yeah, and like Reuben Boomsha boomsha,

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Speaker 4: Kevin braswell, like the Wan Dixon era in Maryland was on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So what was what was it like to, you know,

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Speaker 1: be able to play for Georgetown like a school you

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Speaker 1: obviously were very emotionally connected to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 4: Incredible and I I savored every moment of it. So

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Speaker 4: it's easy to look back and be like and not

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Speaker 4: have regrets, you know, like I did my best and

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Speaker 4: I took advantage of the education and the community. But man,

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Speaker 4: like to walk into that to the Kenner and I

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Speaker 4: was at Kinner League, I'm sorry to walk into what

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Speaker 4: was the name of the arena, the arena, it's like

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Speaker 4: McDonough arena. To walk into McDonough arena and like to

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Speaker 4: see Patrick Ewing's jersey, Alondo Mornings jersey, and to.

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Speaker 2: Like have them come and play with us.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we're kind of the center of at least

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Speaker 4: at that time of basketball in the city, you know,

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Speaker 4: because of the Kenner League, all the pros would come

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Speaker 4: play with us in the summertime, and so we have

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Speaker 4: all the Wizards coming in, like the Legacy and the

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Speaker 4: it's just so incredible, like so incredible, and like you

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Speaker 4: wear Georgetown jersey and then like people come in and

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Speaker 4: they look at you as if you're one of them,

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Speaker 4: and obviously you're not, but like you're part of a family.

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Speaker 4: It's like really like very proud to have played with them.

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Speaker 1: And you were coached by JT three, right, John Thompson

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Speaker 1: the third What was your relationship like with him?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: He was, Yeah, I think one of the best coaches

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Speaker 4: I've had. I have never had a coach that had

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Speaker 4: been so sort of human, you know, like very approachable,

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Speaker 4: like very i want to even say, low key and

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Speaker 4: soft spoken, but seemed to have like a very strong vision,

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Speaker 4: high expectations, and I think had a lot of the

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Speaker 4: father figure traits that that John Thompson, Big John had. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'll never forget, Like my mom passed away when I

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Speaker 4: was in Georgetown, and I'll never forget, you know, three

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Speaker 4: days after it happened, just being home and like just

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Speaker 4: getting a knock on my door. It's just being John Thompson,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's just like coming to hang out. And

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Speaker 4: it was just like really surprising, you know, because family,

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Speaker 4: although my family had always come to all the games,

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Speaker 4: you don't see the coaches outside of that small community,

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Speaker 4: like not very often do the teams go to their

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Speaker 4: houses at least as we had the community at Georgetown.

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Speaker 4: That's like the kind of guy was. And that's an

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Speaker 4: extreme example. I imagine a coach would go visit. But

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Speaker 4: that stuff is really meaningful, you know, And that's he

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Speaker 4: cared a lot about individuals.

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Speaker 1: Most people who are just even casually familiar with athletics

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Speaker 1: understands that it takes a lot of discipline, a lot

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Speaker 1: of discipline, a lot of hard work, those kind of things.

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Speaker 1: In what ways would you say your background in sports

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Speaker 1: kind of prepared you for what you're doing now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love thinking about these things.

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Speaker 4: I think that there's I just can't I feel like

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Speaker 4: now in culture, athletes are really having access to the

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Speaker 4: arts and like it's really okay to be you.

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Speaker 2: Know, EMO and a basketball player.

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Speaker 4: You know, like it's okay to like Metallica and then

370
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Speaker 4: also you know, be really into sports and where a Jersey.

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Speaker 4: But when I was growing up it was the opposite. Like,

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Speaker 4: you know, basketball culture was something you go into and

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Speaker 4: it subsumes you, and if you don't, you know, very

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Speaker 4: few people could be like as Rob Men or Bill

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Speaker 4: Walton on their team without everyone just being like, you know,

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Speaker 4: shoving you off to the side. But I love the

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Speaker 4: way that sports taught me that you do things now

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Speaker 4: that you won't see a payoff for until later, and

379
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Speaker 4: you don't know when it's going to show up, you know,

380
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Speaker 4: like investing in like a stock or something like, you

381
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Speaker 4: have your expect to get these gains in a month

382
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Speaker 4: or in two months, but when you're practicing something like

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Speaker 4: you can't say in one month, I'm going to be

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Speaker 4: able to do this move in a game seamlessly, unconsciously

385
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Speaker 4: and integrated into my skill set do the thing I

386
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Speaker 4: need to do. It just shows up one day, and

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Speaker 4: that not being able to predict when it does allows

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Speaker 4: one to like commit to the task at hand and

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Speaker 4: not worry too much about when it is, just knowing

390
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Speaker 4: that it will. And that to me is what filmmaking

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Speaker 4: is and what photography is. Looking at art the way

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Speaker 4: that other people's work integrates itself into the way in

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Speaker 4: which you think about your own work and your own self,

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Speaker 4: and then it shows up sometimes when you don't know it.

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Speaker 2: Also, like the way that I used a camera.

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Speaker 4: I've been making images for a really long time in

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Speaker 4: the specific community, and now I have a muscle memory

398
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Speaker 4: of framing and making images that is very similar to

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Speaker 4: a jump shot. Like if you give me a camera,

400
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Speaker 4: I make images that look like my images because I've

401
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 4: done it so much. And I don't know when that clicked,

402
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Speaker 4: but I knew it would because of sports.

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Speaker 1: Now, George Stown, you majored in fine arts, was it?

404
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Speaker 2: No?

405
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Speaker 1: No?

406
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Speaker 4: I majored double majored in English and sociology. Then I

407
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Speaker 4: got a minor in this thing called the inter arts,

408
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 4: which are strange because it's just as like one improp

409
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Speaker 4: Class one painting, Class one photography, so kind of hotchposh.

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Speaker 1: How much thought had you given to what your life

411
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Speaker 1: might look like without basketball?

412
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Speaker 4: None? I was like lost completely, but not even a

413
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Speaker 4: butt actually lost. I knew, I think, And I came

414
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Speaker 4: to this conclusion while chat with someone about these things

415
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Speaker 4: because it's not something.

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Speaker 2: That I think about in language.

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Speaker 4: You know, you kind of have feelings about the stuff,

418
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Speaker 4: and you can sit in the feelings, but to articulate

419
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Speaker 4: it's different. Because I lost my mother and basketball about

420
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Speaker 4: the same time, photography and English language came into my

421
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Speaker 4: life in a way that.

422
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Speaker 2: I took it very seriously.

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Speaker 4: So it's about identity formation and knowledge production, and that

424
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Speaker 4: was happening at that time, which paid dividends into towards

425
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Speaker 4: the art that I'm making now. But at that moment,

426
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Speaker 4: it was just a space that I felt safe and

427
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Speaker 4: I felt control over my thoughts.

428
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Speaker 2: And my destiny.

429
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Speaker 4: You know, if I think I'm going to go to

430
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Speaker 4: the NBA, everything's telling me I am my scholarships, you know,

431
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 4: you know, nominating McDonald's all American. You lose your future.

432
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 4: You don't know what to do, but then you also

433
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Speaker 4: lose your mom. You're like, I have no idea what

434
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Speaker 4: the future looked like, and so settling into the craft

435
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 4: it filled those voids, and so I didn't have to

436
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 4: think about my future because I had something that I

437
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 4: could practice.

438
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 1: So at what point did you realize that, Hey, I

439
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: think this is something I want to pursue, pursuing the arts,

440
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: pursuing filmmaking, photography, Like, at what point did you realize, like,

441
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 1: this is the direction I needed to go.

442
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,679
Speaker 4: I was obsessed with photography so much so that I

443
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,879
Speaker 4: was getting in trouble. When I lived in Northern Ireland

444
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 4: and played professional basketball for a year, worked for this

445
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 4: organization called Piece Players International that was using divide, using

446
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 4: basketball to bridge social divides with Casoclus and Protestants. So

447
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 4: I was a regional photographer and sometimes I spend more

448
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 4: time taking photographs for them than I would doing the

449
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 4: real work, which was not good of course, And the

450
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 4: organization got an sp that year and there was an

451
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 4: ESPN photographer that came don't remember his name. They looked

452
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 4: at my photographs and he was like, oh, you've got

453
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 4: a good eye.

454
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 2: And I was like, what's a good eye? I don't

455
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 2: even know.

456
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, so like look it up and you know, chat

457
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 4: with him one or two times while he's photographing for ESPN,

458
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 4: and he, you know, indirectly convinced me that I could

459
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 4: make photograph like people like people would like my images

460
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 4: or something. And at that point I was like, I

461
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 4: want to be a photographer and got back and immediately

462
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 4: just super obsessed, started teaching photography and elementary schools and.

463
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was it right now at that point, like

464
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: at what point did you start to consider filmmaking as

465
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: like this is going to be sort of I don't

466
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: on is it the word I'm looking for, but an

467
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: extension of what I've already done.

468
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 4: That wasn't until I was in Alabama and I had

469
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 4: photographed three years in Hell County.

470
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 1: And I was making just when you were working on

471
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: your documentary.

472
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: This is right before.

473
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 4: So I moved here and I was living in DC

474
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 4: from like two thousand and seven to two thousand and nine,

475
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 4: teaching photography, making images. Couldn't afford to live there, moved

476
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 4: to Alabama, start teaching photography there, start coaching basketball, and

477
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 4: I'm like obsessed with photography. I'm like studying it, you know,

478
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 4: digging into the history, and I'm taking images, which is

479
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 4: so interesting. I'm taking images and all of them look

480
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 4: like someone else's, right, but they're really beautiful, you know,

481
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 4: but they're like I know that there's that I'm not

482
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 4: in them. I'm channeling what I like to call universal

483
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 4: standards of beauty, and so I'm trying to figure out

484
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 4: why my images don't look like my own, you know,

485
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 4: in the same way that every person has a different

486
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 4: jump shot, you try to shoot like someone else you

487
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 4: will never be successful. You have to find the way

488
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 4: that the ball in your body mechanics work with space

489
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 4: and time and the ball like you have to find you.

490
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 4: And after three years, I like figured something out with

491
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 4: photography where I was really in dialogue with my own

492
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 4: image making process and the history and blackness, and like,

493
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, I understand how to make images. And

494
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 4: about that time, I'm like, I wonder what that looks

495
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 4: like in film, Like what does that specificity, what does

496
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 4: that reflexivity look like in the moving image?

497
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 2: And that's when I started Hell County Now.

498
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: To go immediately to then begin working on a documentary

499
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: about the place where you were living. What sort of

500
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: gave you the idea that you wanted to focus in

501
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: on Alabama, on Hell County in particular.

502
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I'd moved there and I didn't know that

503
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 4: I was moving to one of the most historic counties

504
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 4: for fine art photography like this sky Walker Evans and

505
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,719
Speaker 4: this guy wheream Christian Berry had been photographing there. They

506
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 4: kind of produced what most people know as rural poverty visually,

507
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 4: and they were working for I don't think when christ

508
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 4: Marry was Thelice Walker Evans was hired by the Farm

509
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 4: Security Administration to photograph as Dorth theer Lange and all

510
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 4: these other historical photographers. And I go to this place

511
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 4: that is essentially the most photograph region or the most

512
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 4: known reason for rural poverty, and all of the folks

513
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 4: that are imaged are white. And I'm like, Okay, that's interesting.

514
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 4: Why are there not images of people of color? And

515
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 4: then I look at the way in which people of

516
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 4: color have been photographed in the region. I'm like, Okay,

517
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 4: these people of color have obviously been photographed by white

518
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 4: people because there's a distance there, there's an objectification, and

519
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 4: it's not even necessarily explicit, you know, there's just something

520
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 4: I noticed that's not in our community. And so I'm like, well,

521
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 4: what's it look like for a person like myself, who

522
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 4: considers the South to be a sort of culture sack

523
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,239
Speaker 4: for Black American identity to come to the South from

524
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 4: the North with all these notions of this is how

525
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 4: you help it? You know, you guys are a little

526
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 4: bit behind New York, you know, like, what's it look

527
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 4: like for me to look at the South as it's

528
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 4: my conceptual home that kind of became my working mantra

529
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 4: in a way or my working constitution, and with that,

530
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 4: I wonder what cinema's participation in the language of blackness

531
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 4: as it relates to said those ideas.

532
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: Now, that project was nominated for an oscar correct, So

533
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: you know, even though a lot of creatives they don't

534
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: necessarily do creative work for validation. But what did it

535
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: feel like, I know now, like for you to have

536
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: like this, this, you know, first project that you've done,

537
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: you know, at that scale, to be received in that way.

538
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: It's crazy.

539
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 4: You know. One thing that's funny is I was on

540
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 4: The Daily Show with Trevoroa and this is right after

541
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 4: we get nominated, and he's like, you got nominated in

542
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 4: your first one, like what's the next? And I'm like,

543
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 4: I'm done, never making another one. And then you make

544
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 4: Nickel Boys, and then of course Nicol Boys gets nominated

545
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 4: and I'm like, I'm seriously done, Like why would I

546
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 4: ever make a third? Just kidding, No, it's you know,

547
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 4: it's incredible for one's ego, I think, But I think

548
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 4: what it taught me, If that's the way to answer

549
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 4: the question, is that people people don't know what they want.

550
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 4: People think they know what they want. People's tastes are

551
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 4: led by people who are making things, and essentially it pays,

552
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 4: it pays, it pays off, maybe to the maximum if

553
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 4: you dig into like subjectivity and into yourself, and people

554
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 4: will come to it, like people want to like new things.

555
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 4: Because the film is, especially in twenty seventeen, like it

556
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 4: is not it's not supposed to be nominated for an oscar,

557
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 4: you know, Like the film was anti consumption, Like I

558
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 4: built it as a response to image making of people

559
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 4: of color, Like it was supposed to be this grappling

560
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 4: between what you expect and what you're gidding and the

561
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: image is in your own head and you're responding to

562
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 4: it with your own imagination. You're completing the film, like

563
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 4: all these big ideas. But then it was accepted because

564
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 4: I think at that time people of color and not

565
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 4: people of color, were a little bit tired of the

566
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 4: way in which films narrativize lives and the way in

567
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 4: which images of people of color sometimes feel a bit reductive.

568
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 4: And that's validating and encouraging.

569
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: Well, we could have done this entire podcast on Nickel

570
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: Boys alone. I wanted it last night, so it's very

571
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: fresh in top of my Yes, seven million questions without

572
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: giving it away. But we're going to take a quick

573
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: break and we'll be right back with more from you,

574
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: and we are going to get into a deep discussion

575
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: of Nickel Boys, which is nominated for an Oscar or

576
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: a couple of Hobscars this year, all right back in

577
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: the Moway. So, as I mentioned before the break, I

578
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: have so much I want to talk to you as

579
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: it relates to Nickel Boys, which is based off Coldon

580
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: Whitehead's book, which was a Polite Surprise winning book. And

581
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: I remember hearing about the book and it was always

582
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: on my to read lists at some point and I

583
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: never got around to it. And so when I first

584
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: heard about Nickel Boys, I was like, oh, this is

585
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 1: an opportunity. Even though I have to say I always

586
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: go into it when something's based off a book, I

587
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: always went to it with a preconceived bias like this

588
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: ain't gonna be as good, blah blah blah, you know whatever.

589
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: And I think the best films made about books are

590
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: the films that actually make you want to read a book.

591
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: And that's how I felt after watching Nickel Boys. It

592
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: made me want to read the book because I have

593
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: to say, just purely from an esthetic standpoint, and this

594
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: is not really my lane. It's one of the most

595
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: beautiful movies I've ever seen, like just the way it

596
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: was shot, the images, and so your photography background like

597
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: really showed up in this. Is that even if and

598
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: it's a very quiet movie, you know, like it's just

599
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: it's quiet and powerful, like kind of all at once.

600
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: And of course, like most people, I was very struck

601
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: by the perspective in which you chose to do the movie,

602
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: which was a first person lens and you know, just

603
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: talk to me about like that that's a brave decision

604
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: to make for this kind of for this kind of work,

605
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: Like what what gave you the courage to present this

606
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: film this way?

607
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

608
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 4: I think there's a bunch of factors, and I could

609
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 4: talk forever about all of them, but I'll try to

610
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: summarize it into one is that this is like second

611
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 4: career for me, Like a lot of people, I think,

612
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 4: and this is hot take, maybe not a hot take.

613
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: I think make films, worried about making the next one,

614
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 4: you know, like I want to do this for a living,

615
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 4: and you know, this is going to give me an

616
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 4: opportunity to do this, Like I'm not thinking about another film.

617
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 4: I'm only trying to make the most powerful thing once,

618
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 4: you know. And I think with that, I think, yeah,

619
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 4: I don't have failure. Failure doesn't occur to me because

620
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 4: I've already had like the most extreme failure, which is

621
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 4: like losing basketball, like to me, my body giving out,

622
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 4: and like, I don't know, like it couldn't get worse,

623
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 4: Like what's worse than that, you know, making a film

624
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 4: and someone not liking it. I don't I'm sorry you

625
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 4: don't like it. You know, I'm sure I'm going to

626
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 4: like it, you know. And I think with that, and

627
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 4: with yeah, it's allowed me to be a free thinking

628
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 4: sort of art maker in which it's less about reception

629
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 4: and more about intention. That's the first thing. And I

630
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 4: think the second thing is I've been working on the

631
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 4: ideas that are in this film for fifteen years, because

632
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 4: they started with my photography, and then they you know,

633
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 4: the three years of making images and then finding the thing,

634
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 4: then then making a photo series that I thought was

635
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 4: really meaningful, then making Hell County, This Morning, This Evening,

636
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 4: which is essentially a first person film without my hands

637
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 4: in it. So this is kind of the next iteration

638
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 4: of my art practice, so I relatively know what I'm doing,

639
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 4: so I have the like I have the practice I've

640
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 4: been practicing for a long time. It was just about

641
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 4: resources and collaborators.

642
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: Well, it didn't feel like you were doing something bubld.

643
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: That's what it sounds like, you're.

644
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: Saying, exactly.

645
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, but I know that it is, but only

646
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: in the sort of studio commercial system, because in the

647
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 4: art world, no one would be like, this is bold.

648
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 4: They would be like, oh, interesting, peace like it means this,

649
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 4: it means this. But for commercial films too forefront black

650
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 4: subjectivity to use the camera in this way, to like

651
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 4: not have traditional narrative markers that explore emotion and empathy

652
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 4: and expected ways, you know, which is like showing the

653
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 4: violence and or you know, making the devastating part of

654
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 4: one of the characters lives at the end of the film,

655
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 4: an entire scene that goes on for a long time.

656
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 4: That's just the language of studios. So so yeah, it

657
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 4: wasn't It wasn't that much of a leip.

658
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: I guess, as somebody who is getting more intimately acquainted

659
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: with how things work in Hollywood through my own projects,

660
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think as the after I'd finished

661
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: Nickel Boys, I how did this get made? The number

662
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: one thing that came to mind, especially we see we

663
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: see sort of what is being prioritized, like a lot

664
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: of nostalgia, a lot of remakes, that kind of thing.

665
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: I was like, and while this is based off a book,

666
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know who green lit this, but

667
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: like just share what what you can about that process,

668
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: because this is the type of movie I easily see

669
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: you go into a pitch meeting and they're like, yeah.

670
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 4: No, you know, yeah, well Jamel, you know, I introduce

671
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 4: you to the people. Yeah, you know, one of them

672
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 4: sitting over there right across you know, yeah, I mean yeah, Edward.

673
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 4: Edward works with MGM and Orian And you know, I

674
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 4: can only say that it was you know, Plan B,

675
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 4: which is Brad Pitt, Jeremy Kleiner and Dde Gardner, Alana

676
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 4: Mayo at Oriyan, Jocelyn Barnes at Louvertore and David Levine

677
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 4: at Anonymous Content, like those were the brain trust, like

678
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 4: the you know plann. We owned the rights and they

679
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 4: actually came to me because they saw Hell County this morning,

680
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 4: this evening and Dede Gardner, who was like a kind

681
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 4: of adapted screenplay.

682
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: Whisperer for directors was.

683
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 4: Like, this book is really really, really fascinating, and like,

684
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 4: because of these elements, I think it needs it in

685
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 4: the form, needs to be equal to the content and

686
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 4: in hell count of this morning, this evening, that's a

687
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 4: huge concept of the film. So she was like, I

688
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 4: didn't think anyone could do it aside from Ramel. I mean,

689
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 4: I didn't know she thought that highly of it until

690
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 4: kind of after and thought that highly of me. She

691
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 4: approached me and said they loved the film, Colson loved

692
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 4: how kind of this morning, this evening?

693
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: What do you think about this book?

694
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 4: And then I proceeded to ask my co writing partner

695
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 4: Jocelyn Barnes, and we kind of went forward, but they

696
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 4: didn't flinch at the idea, which is crazy in hindsight.

697
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: It is because again that was my immediate thought, Like

698
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: I wonder what this process was, this was like. But

699
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 1: what was really fascinating is as I was doing research

700
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: for this interview is seeing that Closon Whitehead did not

701
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: provide any feedback of this at all, Like he really

702
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: removed himself from this process. So how did you receive

703
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: that part that he didn't seem to want anything to

704
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: do with the filmmaking part of it, not in a

705
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: negative way, but he wanted to clearly create some distance.

706
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

707
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 4: Well, I thought that he would at first, you know,

708
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 4: want to participate. And when I sent him an email

709
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 4: thanking him for the opportunity, I assumed there would be

710
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 4: a conversation that would start. But he like wrote back

711
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 4: like good luck, you know, like you got it. I

712
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 4: look forward to seeing the movie. And I went back

713
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 4: to the email. He actually said I sent him the

714
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 4: script too. I won't read the script, I'll just watch

715
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 4: the movie. But I realized after talking with Barry Jenkins,

716
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 4: who made Moonline and some other things, some other great films,

717
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 4: that he did the same with him, and so he

718
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 4: is a distance, a distant collaborator with his own work,

719
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 4: which I appreciate and I imagine was free freeing for

720
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 4: Barry as well.

721
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just saying, did that make you a

722
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: little nervous at all? Because by the time he sees it,

723
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: if he didn't like it, I know, right, Yeah, Well,

724
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what to tell you.

725
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 4: Well, you know, like a question, it's a good question,

726
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 4: but it like Jocelyn Barnes my code writer and I

727
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 4: we had to think immediately, like who we owe what

728
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 4: to I think if if Colson's novel wasn't based on

729
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 4: the Doser School for Boys. Well, there's this book by

730
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 4: doctor Aaron Kimberley called We Carry Their Bones, which was

731
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,959
Speaker 4: a sort of nonfiction account of her as the lead

732
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 4: forensic investigator and kind of exumer of the entire story.

733
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 4: Essentially she works for a University of South Florida. It

734
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 4: was like her crew that went and dug up the

735
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 4: bodies and like you know, put together the documents that

736
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 4: the government would then use to really solidify almost like

737
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: scientifically what happened. It's based on a real story like

738
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 4: this is these are like facts and devast it's devastatingly true.

739
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 4: So Jocelyn and I have to ask, like do we

740
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 4: owe Calson or do we owe the Doser School boys?

741
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 4: You know, like what's what? And of course we owe Calson.

742
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 4: Like he's given us the opportunity to use his ip

743
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 4: the mythology that he built around Elwood and Turner the

744
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 4: Nickel Boys is why most people know about the story.

745
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 4: Like he needed to elevate it to literature for us

746
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 4: to get it to hopefully elevate it to cinema. But yeah,

747
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 4: it was we figured we owed most to Dozier and

748
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 4: then second to Caulson, respectively.

749
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: Calson.

750
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: If you listen, no, that makes sense because for those

751
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: who are listening and watching who are not familiar, you

752
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: know this is based off it's a reformatory school where

753
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: they were clearly abusing black boys. They had their own

754
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: system of like apart time and segregation within this reformatory school.

755
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: And your film takes us of sort of inside the

756
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: emotional the physical toll that these boys are going through.

757
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: But the way you do it, I think if somebody

758
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: just said, okay, this is what the story is about,

759
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: people would automatically assume like, oh, this is gonna be

760
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: black trauma from start to finish. Yeah yeah, but it's

761
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: not that, you know. And what I loved about it too,

762
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: is that I thought the imagination of violence was actually

763
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: more powerful than showing these boys getting brutalized the way

764
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: that they were. And I would love to for you

765
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: to share why you made that such an intentional choice

766
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: that you didn't want to just show these boys being beating.

767
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: You wanted the audience to think about this violence differently yeah,

768
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: and the.

769
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 4: Way that you're asking it to me now, in this

770
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 4: specific sort of thread of conversation, it's making me realize

771
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 4: something about that in that I also think it's more

772
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 4: powerful to not show it, which is why Jocelyn and

773
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 4: I did it. And the reason that is is because

774
00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 4: black people in general are over indexed visually with violence

775
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 4: onto our bodies, right like it's in culture's imagination. There

776
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 4: was a time in which it was really important that

777
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 4: we show the things that we have, the Rodney King

778
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 4: footage that we have, the movies in which we're seeing graphically,

779
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 4: because people didn't believe it, and people actually didn't know

780
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 4: the extent to which it was true. But at some

781
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 4: point it becomes a sort of it happens to them,

782
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 4: not us, or that's all that happens to them, and

783
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 4: so they become a sum of that or inextricably connected

784
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 4: to it. I think we kind of all know these

785
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 4: things intuitively. But I think what's interesting is that for

786
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 4: people who are traumatized, they're like Mark, like, they don't

787
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 4: need to they don't need to go through the trauma

788
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 4: to have the trauma be produced in their brain because

789
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 4: they've experienced it in their past and so you know,

790
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 4: someone who was in the war and hears all the

791
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 4: sound and sees all the things. If they're in a

792
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 4: city in the fourth of July, it is popping off

793
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 4: like they're going.

794
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: Back and it's really scary for them.

795
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 4: But it seems to me the way that you asked

796
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 4: a question that actually culture is like that as it

797
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 4: relates to black imagery, in that it seems like culture

798
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 4: is traumatized with the over index large culture at large,

799
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 4: American culture at large, black, white, every single color. But

800
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 4: it's interesting to think of those images as being trauma

801
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 4: and not just being images that are content.

802
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I mean, that's that's why I didn't

803
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: I didn't read a single review about this movie before

804
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: I saw it. I knew about that again the existence

805
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: of the book, and I knew the general plot line,

806
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: and so when I started the movie, I was thinking,

807
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 1: I was like, I just hope, like I'm not halfway

808
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: through this movie, and I wanted to sort of piro

809
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: wet off a building. I was totally thinking that. I

810
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: was like, please, don't let this be another another round

811
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: of fresh trauma. And so when it got to the

812
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: point of where you know, you're showing what happens in

813
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: the White House, if you will, the place where they

814
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: took the boys that needed to be disciplined. It was

815
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 1: far more thoughtful and scary the way that you did it.

816
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: Being able to hear the young man trembling and shaking,

817
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: and him hearing the sounds and the other like that

818
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,479
Speaker 1: was way. That was what That was the perfect note

819
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: from me, as opposed to like just showing some random

820
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: acts of violence. I don't think I would have gotten

821
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: it the same way.

822
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 4: It's also I think that's the human experience of those things,

823
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 4: you know. And if we're going to take point of

824
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 4: view seriously, and I like to say, like make the

825
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 4: camera an organ, then people aren't viewing that they're actually

826
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 4: in the other room. And it's actually true to the

827
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 4: way in which the film and the camera exists.

828
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 2: So it kind of just makes practical sense as well.

829
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: Did you ever think of doing this movie a different

830
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: way or did you always know how you wanted to do?

831
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: Man? I really I credit my co writing partner.

832
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 4: Like I remember finishing the book and like, you know,

833
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 4: thinking a bit, and you know, the first thought after

834
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 4: a while I was reading it was point of view,

835
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 4: And I call Jocelyn and I tell her what I'm thinking,

836
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 4: and she's always supportive. So she wasn't like, man, you

837
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 4: can't do that, or Bory, that's crazy. She was just like, oh, that's.

838
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 2: Interesting, and we we just went with it. But what

839
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: if she didn't.

840
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 4: I never had another thought, but I wonder, like, what

841
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 4: other versions it would have been?

842
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, no idea.

843
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: Why did you because this seemed to be a theme

844
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: and a message in the film without being in avert message.

845
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: But why did you think it was important to sort

846
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: of showcase vulnerability in black Boys?

847
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? Man, that's like.

848
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 4: Such a good question that I think just emerging naturally

849
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 4: through the way in which I like to use the camera,

850
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 4: because I think that you know, I remember after shooting

851
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 4: hel County this morning, this evening, and I remember Jocelyn

852
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 4: being in the edit with me, like, you know, consulting

853
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 4: when I was making cuts, and I.

854
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 2: Remember her asking me, are you gay?

855
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 4: You know, just like straight up, you know, and she

856
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 4: she identifies as queer, like she has she has a

857
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 4: a female partner, And obviously she's not saying it in

858
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 4: any sort of like eighties use of day age, just

859
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 4: like just yeah, because like the way that you know,

860
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 4: I really like the camera like caresses the skin and

861
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 4: its proximity, and the way in which it kind of

862
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 4: aestheticizes quote unquote black bodies in a way that's not objectifying,

863
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 4: but it's like tender and loving and romantic, but it's

864
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 4: not necessarily sexually romantic, you know. But that's that's the

865
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 4: way in which like the way in which I photograph,

866
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 4: especially with the moving image, it is very intimate. And

867
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 4: that's the way that I see people, and that's the

868
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 4: way that I see men, and that you know, is

869
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 4: built into the language of the film and even you know,

870
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 4: in the writing process, the images that I was writing,

871
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 4: uh for each the way that each we're going to

872
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 4: look at each other. And we actually had to dial

873
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 4: some back. And I've never seen this because some of

874
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 4: them were too Like I remember I made an image

875
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 4: of like Turner like tracing Elwood's leg all the way

876
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 4: to the scar and then like tracing the scar with

877
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 4: his finger. And I think it's a beautiful image, right,

878
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 4: And that's what you would do to a friend. That's

879
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 4: what I would do to it, like my father, you know,

880
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 4: like if he had a scar keyloid or something. And

881
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 4: that's something that's in black families. And in nuclear families,

882
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 4: but in the context of this film, that would mislead

883
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 4: the audience, so we kind of had to take that out.

884
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 4: But you see the intimacy in the way in which

885
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 4: they talk at each other and the way that they

886
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 4: look at each other. And I think that every person,

887
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 4: every black Mail, I would say, speaking at large for everyone,

888
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 4: were also trying not to has those relationships that are

889
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 4: romantic but platonic, where it's like, Man, I love you

890
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 4: like you've been there for me, you see me, I

891
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 4: see you, and maybe you never say that. But this

892
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 4: was an opportunity through Colson's characters, because it's already there,

893
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 4: to kind of lean into it with the camera and

894
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 4: with their gaze at each other and with their proximity.

895
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I picked up on that, you know, as their

896
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: their friendship developed, is that this was this was an

897
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: intimate friendship, and it was presenting black male friendship in

898
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: a very different way than what we've seen, but in

899
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: a way that you know, I certainly granted, I'm a woman,

900
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: so I'm speaking from this standpoint, but I didn't think

901
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 1: in a way that would hesitate to use the word undermine,

902
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: but in a way that would sort of undermine sort

903
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 1: of black masculinity, because that's always the charge. It's like, oh,

904
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: they just want to you know, destroy black masculinity. No,

905
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: it's actually to me like it's showcasing a level of

906
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,959
Speaker 1: vulnerability where they're giving each other permission all the time

907
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: to be themselves and to be their most intimate selves

908
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: again without this being about a romance. And so like

909
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: I thought you nailed that very well, you know, definitely.

910
00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 4: It's also like at a moment and a place in

911
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 4: which is needed most, right, Like this isn't just typical

912
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 4: high school and two boys just like hanging out in

913
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 4: the locker room.

914
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 2: This is like a place in.

915
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 1: Dream circumstances where they need this because no one else

916
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: is showing them this level of affection, you know.

917
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 2: Frankly.

918
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 1: So with that being said, how do you hope black

919
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: boys and men feel after seeing nickel boys?

920
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:22,879
Speaker 3: Yeah?

921
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 4: I hope that they I want to say, feel seen,

922
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 4: or I hope maybe that they can allow themselves to

923
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 4: be seen and they can see people without you know,

924
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 4: the no Homo thing or without the no Diddy or whatever,

925
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 4: yeah whatever, or.

926
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: Guys like we're over there. Yeah, it's like you're over

927
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: a certain age, like you should not still be saying

928
00:47:55,160 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: about please.

929
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 4: It's so unnecessary, but like it just shows the way

930
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 4: in which people are still protective over that other people

931
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 4: view their sexuality or their gender identity, which I'm unsure

932
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 4: if is still culturally oppressive or if it's just individually

933
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 4: held onto you know, who can really tell. Yeah, I

934
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 4: hope that there's just another example of ways to be

935
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 4: in relationships with people that are open and and you're present.

936
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: Because this film has been nominated, what is it a

937
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: Best Picture of Adapted Screenplay. Yeah, yeah, correct, very incredible honors,

938
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, to be to be nominated so second time

939
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 1: out right as a you know Oscar Award nomination. How

940
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: does this feel compared to when you were nominated for

941
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: a Hale County.

942
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 4: I mean, the Hell County one was unbelievable. I think

943
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 4: the best part about the Hell County ones and no

944
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 4: one saw it coming, you know, like when we got nominated,

945
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 4: everyone was like like how did they do that? And

946
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 4: we were like Ryan Warner, He's like this guy snatic

947
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 4: who was like just like really smart and was like,

948
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 4: this film is powerful. And I think if we have

949
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 4: a small campaign, because it's all about a campaign like

950
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 4: these films don't get to where they are without a

951
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 4: lot of support from the studios and a lot of

952
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 4: support from the publics and the critics. This time around,

953
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 4: it's most incredible, honestly, which seems like it's a cop

954
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 4: out to say the right thing, but it's just true

955
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 4: that the story of the Doser Boys is like now

956
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 4: part of the Academy and it's part of cinema history,

957
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 4: because man, if this film's and this film was all intent,

958
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 4: like the whole process, the writing process, the pitching process,

959
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 4: it was all like, man, it would be like, it'd

960
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 4: be great if they let us do this. This is

961
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 4: so meaningful, This is so meaningful. It doesn't matter how

962
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,919
Speaker 4: it's received. Obviously we want it received well, we think

963
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 4: we're communicating something specific, But man, like, how cool is

964
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 4: it to have someone go into a theater and on

965
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 4: the same screen that they'll they'll watch Interstellar, same screen

966
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 4: that they watch Poor Things, or the same screen they're

967
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 4: watching Wicked, they see black subjectivity and black point of view.

968
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 4: You cannot watch the film without being inside the head

969
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 4: and eyes of a person of color.

970
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: That doesn't exist.

971
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 4: That's never happened before, and that is like a cultural

972
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 4: gesture that personally is just like meaningful. You know, a

973
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 4: kid watches the thing, watches the film and they're looking

974
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 4: down on Elwood's body as he ties a string around

975
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 4: his finger, like that's you, that's us, that's every person,

976
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 4: all people are equal, whatever, And so the denomination was

977
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 4: like just cool. You know, it's just like we it

978
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 4: got elevated to a space that we could never have imagined.

979
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 2: You know.

980
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: So will it be a letdown if you do another

981
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:50,240
Speaker 1: movie and it's not nominated?

982
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 4: No, definitely, definitely. I mean week long depression. You know,

983
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 4: I can't believe I didn't go three for three?

984
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,399
Speaker 2: Whoe is me? What a hard life? You got?

985
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: It? Like bad a thousands. See, look at the standard

986
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 1: that you wound up, you wound up setting. Now, as

987
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,879
Speaker 1: you said this before earlier in this podcast, about how

988
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: now you see many more athletes that are now in

989
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: the creative space and now feeling comfortable, you know, kind

990
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: of being in that space as someone who had to

991
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: make you made this transition in quite successfully, Like what

992
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: would be some of your advice or things you wish

993
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: you knew when you were trying to make that tradition

994
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: transition that could be helpful to other athletes who want

995
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: to kind of follow a similar path that you have followed.

996
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 4: And honestly, I feel like I made all the right decisions,

997
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 4: or more so, the universe conspired in my favor, you know,

998
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 4: because I largely think that most people work hard, most

999
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 4: people care, and like things happen that are out of

1000
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 4: one's control that like set people off, set them in

1001
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 4: certain ways, and like, you know, more is out of

1002
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 4: control than we realize, you know, until something goes astray,

1003
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 4: and then you're like, oh, yeah, my tire could have

1004
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 4: run flat at any point in time and I could

1005
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 4: have crashed into a car. Probably a bad example, but

1006
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, I think that if I was for

1007
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 4: my younger self, I probably would have tried to be

1008
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 4: myself earlier. I think I waited until I lost my

1009
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 4: mom in basketball.

1010
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 2: To really.

1011
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 4: Say I don't care about what people think, and like,

1012
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 4: if I wanted to read while people were hanging, I

1013
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 4: would just read all day. If I wanted to like

1014
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 4: say something that was on my mind, I would say

1015
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 4: it instead of like holding it back because I didn't

1016
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 4: think people would think what I'm saying is cool. I

1017
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 4: like really bought into basketball culture my first couple of

1018
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 4: years especially going to Georgetown. They had a really big

1019
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 4: tradition and all the athletes coming from around the country

1020
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 4: were also steeped in that tradition.

1021
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: You know.

1022
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 4: I like wore chain my first year, you know, and

1023
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 4: like super baggy clothes.

1024
00:52:58,200 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: When I was in high.

1025
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 4: School, I was listening to Sublime and wearing Abercrombie, you know,

1026
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 4: and then when I went to Georgetown, I was like

1027
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 4: boo boo, you know, I got my my TEMs.

1028
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 2: Now would be fresh, you know, like those types of things.

1029
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 4: So I would probably encourage those if they're interested, to

1030
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 4: just like continue to find who they are and to

1031
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 4: not worry about what people think.

1032
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 2: What sounds tripe, but it's true.

1033
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: This question just popped into my mind just hearing you

1034
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: kind of discuss it in that way. Is like, do

1035
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: you think sports, maybe not every sport, but just the

1036
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: function and the machinery of sports, that it robs athletes

1037
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: of their identity?

1038
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 2: Hmm. I love that question.

1039
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:45,800
Speaker 4: Never thought about it before, because it's hard to say

1040
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 4: whether or not something is I would say in the past, Yes,

1041
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 4: I think it's hard to say whether or not something

1042
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 4: is taking something from someone when it's always giving them

1043
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 4: something too, you know, because it's also giving you so

1044
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 4: much about yourself that maybe doesn't have a traditional place

1045
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 4: to be expressed that it just falls into the language

1046
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 4: of sports. But like what it does for confidence, what

1047
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 4: it does for teamwork, what it does for just genuine,

1048
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 4: genuine understanding of what one's physical limits are, what one's

1049
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 4: capable of.

1050
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 2: I think.

1051
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 4: There's dividends in anything that someone wants to do. It's

1052
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 4: just a way of learning about oneself at its minimum,

1053
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 4: you know, and most people aren't pushed. Most people, I believe,

1054
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 4: aren't pushed. I think most people exist and they are

1055
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 4: challenged in like utilitarian ways. But like to push yourself

1056
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 4: past what you thought you would do only because you

1057
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 4: never thought that there was something beyond what you thought

1058
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 4: was a limit is like human development. Like that is

1059
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 4: a powerful thing. But I think as sports culture has

1060
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:59,360
Speaker 4: existed previously, I would say that it cut off ways

1061
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 4: of expressing oneself, probably in the same way that being

1062
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 4: a college athlete, especially at a Division one big school level,

1063
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:12,240
Speaker 4: I think is an honor of privilege. It also limits

1064
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 4: the classes you can take right like I couldn't. I

1065
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 4: couldn't take any courses that were from three pm to

1066
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 4: the end of the day. So what am I going

1067
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 4: to study? There's only certain things that I can study.

1068
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 4: But it's also given me the identity of a basketball

1069
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 4: player and all those other things. So it's twofold. It's

1070
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 4: like giving it's it's robbing me of those other courses,

1071
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 4: those other academic pursuits, but it's given me so much

1072
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 4: as an athlete for both.

1073
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, are you amazed or how amazed are you that

1074
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: Jeff Green is still playing?

1075
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 4: Yo, Uncle Jeff they called him, We called him Uncle

1076
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 4: Jeff when he was on the team, and now he's

1077
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 4: actually uncle actually uncle Jeff.

1078
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: Actually somebody he's the uncle of the league.

1079
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 4: But the thing is is, like it's not surprising because

1080
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 4: when he came and played with us, like you know,

1081
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 4: Alonso or Pat or the Kemba would come and like

1082
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 4: train with him, and he was like beating them and

1083
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 4: like doing things where you're like, he, how is this

1084
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 4: dude eighteen years old?

1085
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 2: He made no sense. He made no sense, you know

1086
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 2: what I mean?

1087
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 4: Where the person is just clearly more talented, more physically,

1088
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 4: he has prowess, Like so he had that like Lebron,

1089
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 4: you know, grown madness to him.

1090
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 2: He could probably what if Jeff place forever?

1091
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: It's I'm like, I remember him vividly in college and

1092
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: it's like that dude is still pleasing.

1093
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know.

1094
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: It's pretty remarkable. You know, people talk about Lebron beating

1095
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: father Time. I was like Jeff Green did too. Man,

1096
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: he did a lumped father Time up a couple of times.

1097
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: So I usually end the podcast with what I call

1098
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: a messy question.

1099
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 2: All right, So those weren't messy questions.

1100
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 1: It comes to the messy question. This is the one

1101
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: design to get you that headline that surely you probably

1102
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: need right before the askers to do it. Who is

1103
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: the greatest Hoya? Is it Patrick Ewing or is it Alan? I?

1104
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 4: Oh, so you're making me choose between those two? I

1105
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 4: am so I was gonna say Junkyard dog. You know

1106
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 4: what I'm saying, Like, I'm just kidding that out right, right, man,

1107
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 4: that's a really good question because I don't believe in best,

1108
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 4: but I know the spirit of what you're asking, right

1109
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 4: it is.

1110
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not necessarily even though I was surprised he

1111
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: said this, like Magic Johnson said Kobe was the greatest Laker,

1112
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: right yeah, And so you know, to that end, it

1113
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: is like who is the greatest hoya is it? Is

1114
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: it ewing?

1115
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 2: You know I'm going to say and I know I

1116
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 2: know at junior too, and this is this I apologize.

1117
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 4: I apologize, you know. You know I'm going to take

1118
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 4: a really the scope of what we can consider to

1119
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 4: be why one is better than the other. If we're

1120
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 4: gonna say that, I'm gonna say a on Irison because

1121
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 4: I think his story.

1122
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 2: Being arrested in high school. You know, his size, I.

1123
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 4: Think his you know, his relationship to black culture, like

1124
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 4: the hoods, the sagging pants, the carrying like he he

1125
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 4: has a fullness in as it relates to basketball that

1126
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 4: I think very few athletes in general have to their sports.

1127
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 4: He actually changed culture sort of multiple times and became

1128
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,919
Speaker 4: an icon from everything from like underdogs to just trying

1129
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 4: to stay true to your community. And so I'll say, AI,

1130
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 4: but I love Pat and he's a genius and a

1131
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 4: phenom and contributed to basketball in ways that difficult to express.

1132
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 1: I gotta go there now. You said before about how

1133
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: those guys used to come back and you all will

1134
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: hoop against him. So did you get to play against

1135
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: Pat you all the time.

1136
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 2: All the time? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. What was that like?

1137
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 4: I mean he was just blocking everyone's shots, you know.

1138
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 4: I mean the kimbe was was the most interesting because

1139
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 4: I think he was the most sneaky, you know. Alonzo

1140
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 4: was just like a physical beast. Pat was like really agile.

1141
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 4: As I remember, the best or the most interesting moment

1142
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 4: of playing against pros was Jordan came and played with

1143
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 4: us with Randy Moss, right right, real surprise to everyone.

1144
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so what happened?

1145
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 4: So this is when Craig Eestick was coaching, and he

1146
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 4: had he was like, all right, guys, someone's coming to

1147
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 4: the gym today.

1148
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 2: I don't want you guys to take any pictures. Just

1149
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 2: act like everything's normal.

1150
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 4: And pros are always coming by, so we're like, all right, whatever,

1151
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 4: and then like the door's open, Phil Collins walks in and.

1152
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 2: We're like, hell is Phil Collin's doing him?

1153
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 4: And Michael Jordan walks in with the glow obviously you know,

1154
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 4: everyone's like blinded their eyes. And then Randy Moss walks in,

1155
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 4: and Jordan was coming out retirement playing for the Wizard,

1156
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 4: so he wanted to come get a run in. And

1157
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 4: I think maybe because Randy Moss was just part of

1158
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 4: the brand or his friend he came to and I

1159
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 4: don't think anyone has ever told this story. I'll say

1160
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 4: it really quick. Randy Moss got a still and drop

1161
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 4: step dunked on Reuben Boomsay Boomshe with the most unbelievable

1162
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 4: athleticism and resounding bang. All I remember is turning around

1163
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 4: because everyone's running this way. I just remember Randy Moss

1164
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 4: like getting the ball and like looking at him like

1165
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 4: drop stepping and the rim being right here and his

1166
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 4: arms just.

1167
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 2: Being parallel with it.

1168
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 4: Boom and Rooms was a Boomsha was a shot blocker,

1169
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 4: and he was shameless to seven foot one too. He's

1170
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 4: from Camroon, Like he doesn't care about getting dunked on.

1171
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 4: He's going for the block, and it was just like

1172
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 4: so beautiful. And Randy Moss like six to two or something,

1173
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 4: six three or.

1174
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: Maybe like six four bunnies. I would have never.

1175
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, those bunnies. Have you seen videos of him and

1176
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 4: Jay will though, Yeah, yeah, yeah out of.

1177
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: West Virginia and they yeah, I mean everybody said that

1178
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: really very easily been a professional basketball player. That's what

1179
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm just like, well, what that was? When Jordan was

1180
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: with the Wizards, That's when I affectionately call him his

1181
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 1: power forward.

1182
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 2: Days because he was.

1183
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 4: A little different before and he's just like he just

1184
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 4: doesn't continue to rise, you know, and then have to

1185
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 4: just do the do it.

1186
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: But a little bit below the rim I used to

1187
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: seeing him play. Oh, that must have been that must

1188
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 1: have been great.

1189
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean definitely a memory to keep, a memory

1190
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 4: to keep.

1191
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: Or mel I want to thank you so much for

1192
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 1: joining me here on the podcast of good Luck with

1193
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: the nominations. For all those out there listening and watching,

1194
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 1: make sure you go see Nickel Boys. You can get

1195
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: on Amazon by the way, Yeah, yep, it is on

1196
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: Amazon stream last night, so yes, you can go check

1197
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: it out. But it's it's really a beautiful, majestic film.

1198
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: That might be a way to describe it, but it's

1199
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: a great Yeah, it's a great film. And U now

1200
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: I look forward to reading the book and because you

1201
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: really the way that you presented it, it would be

1202
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: it just makes you more curious, is about like wow,

1203
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 1: I wonder what the whole you know, kind of story

1204
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 1: behind this is or like what these you know? You

1205
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 1: just you just wanted a little more. And I always

1206
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 1: prefer to leave a movie like actually wanting more as

1207
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: a past of the opposite feelings.

1208
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 4: So what's great because the book is full, it like

1209
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 4: fills on all the details.

1210
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: And you know, yeah, I figured as much. I was like,

1211
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: that's why I was like, oh, it really made me

1212
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: curious about the book. But beautifully shot. So good luck

1213
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: with everything.

1214
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me.

1215
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: One more segment to go, and you guys know what

1216
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 1: that means. I got questions to answer up next, your

1217
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 1: viewer slash listener questions, and I have plenty of answers

1218
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 1: coming up next on the final segment of Spolatives. Normally,

1219
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 1: as you guys know, I wrap every episode of Politics

1220
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,919
Speaker 1: by taking a question from you all about something that's

1221
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: been on your mind. But today I decided to use

1222
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: this time to address something that is on my mind

1223
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 1: given some very recent events. In the last week, my

1224
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: good friend, my sister joy and reid Or was fired

1225
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: by MSNBC. A lot of you are big fans of

1226
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 1: the Readout as am I. That was her nightly news

1227
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: program that was ONSNBC, and she no longer will have

1228
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 1: that program. And we look across the landscape of news media,

1229
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: especially nightly news, you will see that there are a

1230
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 1: lot of faces of color that are now absent, and

1231
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to black women. I believe now

1232
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 1: the only black women in primetime in nightly news are

1233
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: Laura Coats and Abby Phillips at CNN. Now the reason

1234
01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 1: why Joy's dismissal it sparked a lot of outrage, certainly

1235
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 1: a lot of fear, but I think particularly in the

1236
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 1: journalism community, it let us know something that we've always known,

1237
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: is that, especially in this time, in this climate, that

1238
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: black journalists, black media is especially vulnerable because of who

1239
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 1: is in office now. As you know, Joanne Reid has

1240
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 1: been a very staunch critic of Donald Trump, as have I,

1241
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 1: as have others, not just black folks, but other folks

1242
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 1: in particular. You look at Jim Acosta also let go

1243
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 1: by seeing n he was another one who is a

1244
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: primary critic of Trump. And so it's hard not to

1245
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 1: see these decisions being made and look at it from

1246
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 1: a sixty four thousand view, which is are these moves

1247
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: being made to appease the person who is occupying the

1248
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: White House or are these simply a result of how

1249
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: the television businesses can go, which is very fickle. My

1250
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 1: read on it is this, and I didn't use the

1251
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 1: word read on purpose, though I guess it can serve

1252
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 1: a little bit as a double Endtonda is that joy

1253
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: Ann Reid has been a strong voice. She's been a

1254
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: tremendous voice. She's one of the smartest people on television,

1255
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 1: and for her to not have a show at this

1256
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 1: critical time, I think we're all worse off for that.

1257
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 1: And as we go forward and as we're charting what

1258
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 1: this age of media looks like, one thing we know

1259
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 1: for sure is that the media is not at its

1260
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 1: strongest when strong voices are eliminated. A reminder that in

1261
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: order for a democracy to thrive, you need a free press,

1262
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: and unfortunately, because of corporate journalism, is getting harder and

1263
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 1: harder for authentic voices like Joys to be able to

1264
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 1: be platformed, to be supported, and not just supported by

1265
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 1: the masses, because a lot of people supported Joyne Read

1266
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 1: in terms of her audience, but supported by the people

1267
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 1: that actually sign your paycheck. So wishing my homie Joyanne

1268
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:41,920
Speaker 1: Read all the best. I'm sure her next step will

1269
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 1: be even bigger and bolder than the one that she's leaving,

1270
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 1: and I hope you all out there support her in

1271
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: whatever her next move is. Now, as I said, a

1272
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 1: bit earlier. Usually this time is reserved for questions from

1273
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 1: you all that will still continue. So if you have

1274
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: a question for me, you can hit me up on

1275
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 1: social media or email. I'm at Jamail Hill across all

1276
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: social media platforms, Twitter, Instagram, Fan based, Blue Sky, and threads,

1277
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 1: please use the hashtags politics. You also have the option

1278
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 1: of emailing me as Politics twenty twenty four at gmail

1279
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 1: dot com. You can send me a video of your question,

1280
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 1: but please make sure it is thirty seconds or less.

1281
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 1: Don't forget to follow and subscribe to Spolitics on iHeart

1282
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: and followspolitics pod on Instagram and tiktoks. Politics is spelled

1283
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 1: s po l I tics. A new episode of Spolitics

1284
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: drops every Thursday on iHeart Podcasts or wherever you get

1285
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 1: your podcasts. This is politics where sports and politics don't

1286
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 1: just mix, they matter. Politics is the production of iHeart

1287
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 1: Podcasts and The Unbothered Network. I'm your host Jamail Hill.

1288
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 1: Executive producer is Taylor Shakog. Lucas Hymen is head of

1289
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 1: audio and executive producer. Original music for Spolitics provided by

1290
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 1: Kyle Vis from wiz Fx.