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Speaker 1: Richard Glossop was the manager of a CD motel in

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma City called the Best Budget in where he was

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Speaker 1: responsible for large sums of cash belonging to its owner,

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Speaker 1: Barry Van Trees, cash that he could have stolen at

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Speaker 1: any time without violence. A traveling roofer and methadic named

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Speaker 1: Justin Snead began staying at the motel in exchange for

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Speaker 1: maintenance work, while enjoying easy access to the drugs and

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Speaker 1: prostitutes one might find at a CD motel. In the

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Speaker 1: early morning of January seventh, nineteen ninety seven, Stead and

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Speaker 1: a girlfriend lured Barry van Trees into Room one O

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Speaker 1: two to rob him of the cash he was known

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Speaker 1: to carry. Barry resisted and was bludgeoned and stabbed to death.

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Speaker 1: His car was moved to a nearby lot. Later that morning,

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Speaker 1: Snead off handedly told Richard that he had killed Barry,

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Speaker 1: but after seeing that Barry's car was not at its

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Speaker 1: usual spot, Richard dismissed what he thought was Sneed's usual

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Speaker 1: drug adult ramblings. When the body was discovered, Richard told

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Speaker 1: police about what Snead had said, causing them to focus

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Speaker 1: on him, even though Snead eventually confessed police steered him

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Speaker 1: to implicate Richard as the mastermind of a murder for

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Speaker 1: higher scheme. For his testimony, Snead escaped to death penalty

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Speaker 1: in exchange for life without parole, swapping Richard into his place.

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Speaker 1: The word of a meth head and a legit motive

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Speaker 1: to steal cash was all.

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Speaker 2: It took.

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Speaker 1: Twenty four years, two trials, three stays of execution, a

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Speaker 1: lethal injection drug scandal, and two Supreme Court cases later,

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Speaker 1: Richard remains on death row in Oklahoma. This is wrongful

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Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flapp. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with

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Speaker 1: Jason flamm That's me And if I sound a little

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Speaker 1: down today, it's because this case that you're going to

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Speaker 1: hear about is one of the most troubling cases I've

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Speaker 1: ever heard of in my now twenty ninth year of

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Speaker 1: doing this type of work. With us today we have

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Speaker 1: one of the respected, even revered criminal and civil defense attorneys,

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Speaker 1: a man named Don Knight. Welcome to ronfel conviction.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jason.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that, and of course with us today, calling

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Speaker 1: in from the Oklahoma State Penitentiary where he is now

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Speaker 1: in his twenty third year on death row, and that is,

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Speaker 1: of course Richard Glossip.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is a collect call from for Sure, an

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Speaker 2: incarcerated individual at Oklahoma State Penitentiary. This call is not private.

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Speaker 3: This call will be recorded and may be monitored.

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Speaker 2: To consent to this recorded call, press one to disconnect.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for using securists.

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Speaker 2: You may start the conversation now.

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Speaker 1: Richard. I'm sorry you're here under these circumstances, but I'm

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Speaker 1: happier here.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's cool, man, that's cool. Twenty four years of

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Speaker 2: this and it's bed a long battle and it just continues.

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Speaker 2: But the good thing is I'm still here.

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Speaker 1: Richard, if you don't mind take us back to your childhood.

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Speaker 1: You said, sort of an unusual childhood and moved from

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Speaker 1: Illinois to Oklahoma. But also you were one of a

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Speaker 1: lot of children, right, You had a lot of brothers

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Speaker 1: and sisters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I actually grew up in Geilsburg, Illinois. There

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Speaker 2: was sixteen of us. It was eight boys and eight girls.

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Speaker 2: You know, I grew up around a lot of addiction

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Speaker 2: and stuff like that, and you know, I just didn't

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Speaker 2: think I was going to get anywhere if I stayed

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Speaker 2: there any longer. And I left home when I was

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Speaker 2: fourteen and just made it on my own.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's actually kind of a miracle that you survived.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we could do a whole podcast about that alone,

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Speaker 1: but your story hadn't even begun yet. So okay, you

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Speaker 1: were strange from your family for many years, working and

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Speaker 1: getting by. But how'd you end up in Oklahoma where

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Speaker 1: you got a job at the best budget in working

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Speaker 1: for Barry Van Trees.

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Speaker 2: My mom and dad retired and they decided to move

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Speaker 2: out here to Oklahoma to be closer to my mom's family.

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Speaker 2: And in nineteen ninety three, my dad's health was selling

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Speaker 2: and my mom asked me if I would come out

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Speaker 2: here and spend some time with my dad. And that's

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Speaker 2: how I ended up with the best budget in.

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Speaker 3: Barry Van Trees didn't just run the best budget in

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Speaker 3: Oklahoma City, he also ran best budget in in Tulsa.

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Speaker 3: These were really low rent motels. They were a cash business.

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Speaker 3: There was a lot of drug activity and prostitution. Barry

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Speaker 3: Van Trees would come by every couple of weeks to

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Speaker 3: the Oklahoma City best budget in where he would pick

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Speaker 3: up the cash from Rich. Rich would have sometimes up

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Speaker 3: to thirty thousand dollars in receipts depending on how long

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Speaker 3: it took for Van Trees to come by the motel.

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Speaker 3: So Rich was constantly handling large amounts of money, and

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Speaker 3: there was never any question about whether Rich was stealing money.

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Speaker 3: He was not stealing anything at all.

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Speaker 1: Right, And if he wanted to steal the money, he

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Speaker 1: could have done so almost any time without violence, and

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Speaker 1: he could have skipped town. But he never did, and

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Speaker 1: certainly he didn't do so by involving a meth head

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Speaker 1: named Justin Snead. Now Justin had come through town with

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Speaker 1: a roof and crew out of Texas, and while he

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Speaker 1: was staying at the best budget in and he worked

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Speaker 1: out a deal for a free room in exchange for

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Speaker 1: maintenance and other work around the motel.

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Speaker 2: Right, yes, I said, hey, I need you to go

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Speaker 2: take care of this, or I need to take these

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Speaker 2: people from files or whatever the case may be. He

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Speaker 2: always did it. But as time went by, it was

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Speaker 2: getting harder to find him, and I was going to

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Speaker 2: let him go a couple of times, but you know,

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Speaker 2: very like the fact that he was working Beru, but

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Speaker 2: Verry didn't want me to let him go. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: towards all this happening in the end, It was like

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Speaker 2: I hardly ever found him to do what he was

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Speaker 2: supposed to do.

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Speaker 1: Did you catch any signs that he was using meth?

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Speaker 2: Well, they were up all the time, So I did

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Speaker 2: have a couple of family members that did it, and

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Speaker 2: so learning from how they acted, you know, I could

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Speaker 2: tell that, yeah, definitely they want something. Justin was a

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Speaker 2: very odd guy. He would say things that would throw

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Speaker 2: you off. He would say things that would just make

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Speaker 2: you sketch your head and go, man, this guy is

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Speaker 2: just like really weird.

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Speaker 1: So were there any signs that he might have been

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Speaker 1: robbing people to support his habit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You know. I had one of the a guy

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Speaker 2: named John Biebers, king to me and that he was

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Speaker 2: missing a big jar of coins. When he said he

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Speaker 2: thought Justin did it, I didn't believe him. But hindsight

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Speaker 2: is twenty.

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Speaker 1: Twenty, right, Yeah, it sure is. And at the time,

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Speaker 1: you and your girlfriend Deanna Wood were spending a lot

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Speaker 1: of time together and most of it at the motel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I lived on the property. I lived behind the

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Speaker 2: front desk in an apartment, so I'm always on the

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Speaker 2: property other than DNA, and I'd being able to go

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Speaker 2: out and do something on our own why the desk

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Speaker 2: Cirk was there.

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Speaker 1: Now, this brings us all the way up to January seventh,

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Speaker 1: thineteen ninety seven. At six am, Justin Snead woke Rich

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Speaker 1: up and told him about a broken window and then

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Speaker 1: kind of off handily says, oh, and by the way,

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Speaker 1: I killed Barry. Snead was known for saying weird stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, and so when Richard looked at Barry's usual

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Speaker 1: parking spot and didn't see Barry's car, he wrote it

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Speaker 1: off as Sneed just being Snead. Now, later on, Barry

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Speaker 1: Van Teresa's car was spotted in the Credit Union parking lot,

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Speaker 1: about fifty yards away from the best budget in but

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Speaker 1: there was no sign of Barry. So this kicked off

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Speaker 1: a search, and rich was out shopping with his girlfriend

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Speaker 1: Deiana and was called back to work around three pm.

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Speaker 1: So at this point rich is wondering do I tell

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Speaker 1: the police about what Sneed said? But he Indiana decided

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Speaker 1: against it because they didn't even know if Barry was

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Speaker 1: dead or not. And finally at ten pm, Barry's body

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Speaker 1: was discovered in Room one oh two. He had been

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Speaker 1: beaten with a baseball bat as well as having been

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Speaker 1: stabbed with a blunt object.

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Speaker 3: What happened here was that Barry Van Trees stopped in

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Speaker 3: in the evening of January sixth, took care of payroll

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Speaker 3: and took care of everybody at the Best Budget in

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Speaker 3: Oklahoma City before leaving and driving Tulsa to take care

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Speaker 3: of the payroll and the situation in Tulsa. He didn't

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Speaker 3: get to Tulsa till around midnight or so and didn't

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Speaker 3: stay there very long. Told the people in Tulsa when

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Speaker 3: he left to tell his wife that he would be

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Speaker 3: home in five and a half hours. Home was Lawton, Oklahoma.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't take five and a half hours to get

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Speaker 3: to Lawton, so obviously when he said that he had

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Speaker 3: plans to stop, he stopped back at the Best Budget

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Speaker 3: in in Oklahoma City where he went to room one

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Speaker 3: oh two. And that's where Justin Snead was waiting for him,

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Speaker 3: or at least his girlfriend was waiting for him. Because

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Speaker 3: we have found out that there was another person involved

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Speaker 3: in this case. It wasn't Rich Glossop, but it was

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Speaker 3: Justin Snead's girlfriend. The information that we have found is

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Speaker 3: that it was simply a robbery attempt. These two meth

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Speaker 3: fueled young people thought they could simply take the keys

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Speaker 3: from Barry Van Trees and get the money out of

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Speaker 3: his car without Van Trees knowing or objecting. I don't

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Speaker 3: know what their plan was. We talked to one witness

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Speaker 3: and she had a great statement. She said, when you've

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Speaker 3: been on mess for twenty days in a row, the

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Speaker 3: idea fairy appears. That looks like what happened here. These

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Speaker 3: two people knew Barry Van Trees had a lot of money,

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Speaker 3: and so we think that he was lured into room

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Speaker 3: one oh two by this girl. He knew he was

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Speaker 3: coming back to that place, and once there, confronted by

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Speaker 3: Justin Snead. From the information we have that we have

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Speaker 3: found from new witnesses, Sneid admitted that he was intending

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Speaker 3: simply to take Van Trees's money and not kill him.

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Speaker 3: But Van Trees fought back and at the end of

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Speaker 3: that fight, Barry Van Trees was beaten to death. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't just beaten to death, but there was also some

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Speaker 3: stab wounds on his body from a very blunt object.

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Speaker 3: Blunt object appears to be a pocket knife that the

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Speaker 3: police found in the motel room that had its tip

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Speaker 3: broken off. So for this murder. Justin Snead and his

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Speaker 3: girlfriend had two weapons, a baseball bat and a broken knife.

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Speaker 1: It would be really low on anyone's choices of how

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Speaker 1: to go right, sure.

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Speaker 3: But also I think low on somebody's idea of how

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Speaker 3: to kill somebody. I mean, if you're really planning to

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Speaker 3: murder someone, you don't go with a dull knife in

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Speaker 3: a baseball bat. You know. It sounds like a bad

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Speaker 3: plan from mess fueled young people. And the aftermath was

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Speaker 3: a continuation of that bad plan. The vehicle where the

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Speaker 3: money was was moved not more than fifty yards. It's

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Speaker 3: not as if it was moved away so that it

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Speaker 3: could be hidden. It was within plain view of the

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Speaker 3: best budget in in a credit union, right next to

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Speaker 3: the best budget in. It was found there the next

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Speaker 3: more by the security guard off duty sheriff's deputy working

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Speaker 3: at the Wayoki credit union found this vehicle sort of

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Speaker 3: with one tire up on the curb, parked in a

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Speaker 3: place that it shouldn't be parked, and that's what started

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Speaker 3: the investigation on the seventh into Barryvan Teresa's death.

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Speaker 1: So you might notice that Rich hasn't been mentioned yet

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Speaker 1: in the story of this crime and that's because no one,

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Speaker 1: not even the prosecution, ever claimed that he was even

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Speaker 1: in the room when it happened. Rich was sleeping in

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Speaker 1: the apartment behind the front desk with his girlfriend. That's undisputed.

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Speaker 1: So why are we even having this conversation and how

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Speaker 1: is rich on death row? Well, the lead investigators in

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Speaker 1: this case, Bimo and Cook, who did little to no investigation,

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Speaker 1: basically didn't talk to anyone at the motel and instead

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Speaker 1: focused on Richard early on for a few very ill

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Speaker 1: conceived reasons.

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Speaker 3: They focused on Rich and I think I think the

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Speaker 3: first reason is Rich's last name is Glossop. Rich's family

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Speaker 3: was a known family with a criminal history in Oklahoma,

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Speaker 3: So I think that's one thing. That the second thing

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Speaker 3: when they found Van Trees's body at ten o'clock and

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Speaker 3: they said, you know, Rich, why don't you come in

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Speaker 3: and sit and talk with us? And was at that

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Speaker 3: point that Rich told them about that statement that Sneed made.

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Speaker 3: That was the point I think when the police said, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: he's hiding something. And I think that, in combination with

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Speaker 3: Rich's last name, I think that's what made the police

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Speaker 3: begin to think Rich Glossop had something to do with

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Speaker 3: this case.

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Speaker 1: They decide to focus on this one statement that he omitted, right,

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Speaker 1: which is, I don't know that I would have done

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Speaker 1: anything differently myself.

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Speaker 3: It's clearly his right to do so. I mean, he

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Speaker 3: doesn't have to talk to the police. Nobody has to

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Speaker 3: talk to the police.

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Speaker 1: After this initial interview, on the seventh, Rich sells some

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Speaker 1: personal Lineay was to raise money for a lawyer and

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Speaker 1: talk to an attorney named David Mackenzie, who told him

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Speaker 1: quite rightly to not speak with the police. But Rich

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Speaker 1: did what a lot of innocent people do, right. He

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Speaker 1: believed that just telling the truth will set you free.

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Speaker 1: So he talked to Bemo and Cook.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, in the parking lot of Mackenzie's office, the police

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Speaker 3: were waiting for Rich. Rather than tell them I can't

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Speaker 3: talk to you because this lawyer just told me this

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Speaker 3: is what I'm supposed to say, Rich says, okay, I'll

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Speaker 3: talk to you. And Demo and Cook to have a

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Speaker 3: real bad history of how they do their interrogations, and

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Speaker 3: when they set themselves upon Rich, they were going to

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Speaker 3: do what they could do to try to get Rich

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Speaker 3: to say things that they could say were inconsistent, and

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Speaker 3: then they would start driving that home to try to

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Speaker 3: get him to confess to this crime.

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Speaker 1: But he never does confess to the crime. However, they

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Speaker 1: start trying to tell him that he said things in

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Speaker 1: his initial interview on the seventh that he did not.

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Speaker 1: They tried to catch him in lies with lies of

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Speaker 1: their own, and it's clear that they have their sights

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Speaker 1: set on him. Meanwhile, Snead took off on the afternoon

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Speaker 1: of the seventh, before Barry's body was even found. He

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Speaker 1: went off working with the roof and crew that he

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Speaker 1: came into town with from Texas, trying to make himself scarce. Basically, yeah, he.

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Speaker 3: Left New motel sometime after three o'clock, just took the

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Speaker 3: skateboard and took off again. It was It's something that

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Speaker 3: the prosecutor in both trials tried to paint that he

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Speaker 3: was totally dependent on Glossop for everything because he had

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Speaker 3: no way of making any money, which was just wrong.

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Speaker 3: I mean, first off, he was stealing the place blind,

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Speaker 3: he was breaking into motel rooms, he was breaking into cars,

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Speaker 3: he was doing everything he could do to get money

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Speaker 3: for his drug habit. But when he left the motel

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Speaker 3: that day, he skateboarded over to were the people who

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Speaker 3: he used to work for doing roofing were and he

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Speaker 3: joined the roofing crew again. So he had the opportunity

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Speaker 3: at any point in time to go make more money

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Speaker 3: doing his roofing work than he ever made it the

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Speaker 3: best budget in and he did that on that day.

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Speaker 3: They didn't catch Sneid until the fourteenth of January. It

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Speaker 3: was the owner of the roofing company who seeing the

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Speaker 3: news accounts of what had happened and seeing Sneed's picture

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Speaker 3: on the news, that said to Sneid, I think you

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Speaker 3: need to turn yourself in. So he's the one that

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Speaker 3: called the police, and that's when they interrogated Sneed.

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Speaker 1: Right, And in Sneed's interrogation it's clear that Rich is

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Speaker 1: their main target. So they start working Snead over to

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Speaker 1: both admit to the crime and implicate Rich in some way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this was not a situation where they were saying, okay,

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Speaker 3: justin we've caught you, why don't you tell us what happened. Instead,

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Speaker 3: they go through this long prelude telling him what happened,

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Speaker 3: telling him what they know, telling him that they know

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Speaker 3: that somebody else was involved, and they don't want him

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Speaker 3: to hang alone. And in Sneed's first is like, I

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Speaker 3: don't even know what to say to tell you, as

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Speaker 3: if he didn't have anything to do with it, And

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Speaker 3: then they brought Rich's name into it. We think Rich

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Speaker 3: had something to do with it. You know, he's under arrest.

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Speaker 3: So Snead never said anything about Glossop at all. That

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Speaker 3: came from the police, and then they began to work

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Speaker 3: with Snead from there untill they finally got this sort

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Speaker 3: of crazy idea about Rich wanting to steal the money,

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Speaker 3: kill Van Trees and split the money with Sneid and

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Speaker 3: somehow or another they would run the motels. Some crazy

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Speaker 3: story that came out, which I think you would probably

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Speaker 3: expect from somebody who's high on.

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Speaker 1: Math, right, and who's being fed information by police who

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Speaker 1: are exactly not interested in the truth here.

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Speaker 3: So right, because if they had been interested into the truth,

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Speaker 3: they simply would have said, why don't you tell us

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Speaker 3: what happened? Tell us everything that you know.

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Speaker 1: And so Snead confesses to the murder. But what's clear

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Speaker 1: from his interrogation is that he was steered to drag

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Speaker 1: Rich into it as the mastermind of a murder for

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Speaker 1: higher plot, and then Snead uses this made up scenario

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Speaker 1: to save himself, making a deal for a life without

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Speaker 1: parole instead of the death penalty.

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Speaker 3: We have a witness who says he talked to Snead

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Speaker 3: that year while he was in jail with Steed, and

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Speaker 3: as Snead said, I had two main goals. One I

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Speaker 3: didn't want the death penalty and two I didn't want

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Speaker 3: my girlfriend to get caught. Snead got bold of what

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Speaker 3: he wanted at Rich's expense.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss Rifkin, Porton and Garrison,

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Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had

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Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance

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Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable members of our society and in

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Speaker 1: support of the public interest, including extensive work in the

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Speaker 1: criminal justice area.

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Speaker 2: Detective Demo in the docuseries that was done changed what

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Speaker 2: he testified at two trials and and it was a

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Speaker 2: murder for hire. He gives the statement in our docuseries

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Speaker 2: where he says, Oh, I think it was a robbery

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Speaker 2: went bad. That's the original story that Justin gave him,

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Speaker 2: that it was a robbery went bad, and they knew

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Speaker 2: that that's what it was, but they needed it to

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Speaker 2: be more. In my opinion, you know, prosecutors and stuff

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Speaker 2: need these notches in their belt so bad so they

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Speaker 2: could further their career. And it doesn't matter who they

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Speaker 2: get that notch from, as long as they get it.

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Speaker 2: My first judge, Judge Johnson, even looked at the prosecutor

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Speaker 2: and said, I don't understand where this is the murder case.

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Speaker 2: And she convinced the judge will give me some time.

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Speaker 2: And that's the only reason the judge even allowed it

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Speaker 2: to go forward, because he was convinced by a prosecutor

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Speaker 2: to let her build a case.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so don there is a villain in this story,

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Speaker 1: of course. I'm talking about then district attorney Bob Macy,

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Speaker 1: who was nicknamed the Angel of Death, and he seemed

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Speaker 1: to get off on winning death penalty cases, innocent, guilty, whatever.

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Speaker 1: He played dress up like a cowboy, although he was

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Speaker 1: not a cowboy. Can you tell us about this awful character.

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Speaker 3: Bob Macy's just one of a handful of prosecuting attorneys

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Speaker 3: in the country that really drives the death penalty in

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Speaker 3: this country, they're only a handful of places where most

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Speaker 3: of the death penalty verdicts come from or at least

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Speaker 3: that has been the way in the past. New Orleans,

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Speaker 3: there was certainly one in Oklahoma City. And these prosecutors

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Speaker 3: they derive their power, i think, and their political base

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Speaker 3: from seeking and getting the death penalty. They look at

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Speaker 3: that as being tough on crime, and Macy certainly forged

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Speaker 3: his legacy with all of that in mind. I think

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Speaker 3: the thing that happens in these places is it can't

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Speaker 3: just be one person that does this, but it becomes

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Speaker 3: a culture. He was in power in Oklahoma City for

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Speaker 3: a long time. A lot of his prosecutors went on

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Speaker 3: to become judges. So now you've got not just the

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Speaker 3: prosecuting attorney's office, but they're on the bench as well.

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Speaker 3: So they've got judges, prosecutors, forensic people, you've got police,

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Speaker 3: and you've got jurors who are just ready to go

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Speaker 3: on these death penalty cases. And they begin to sort

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Speaker 3: of cow the defense bar into either going along and

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Speaker 3: getting their clients some kind of plea or they lose

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Speaker 3: at trial, and these death verdicts result. It becomes a

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Speaker 3: cultural situation where you have no one fighting anymore for

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Speaker 3: the defendant and to sort of get on the train

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Speaker 3: or get run over by the trained mentality takes over.

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Speaker 1: So Rich is charged with capital murder, which the fact

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Speaker 1: that he's being tried for his life for not having

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Speaker 1: killed anyone is insane in and of itself. But that's

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Speaker 1: a totally another story. And so a trial sneed testified

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Speaker 1: that Rich was the mastermind behind this murder for higher plot,

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Speaker 1: thereby receiving the direct benefit of not being sent to

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Speaker 1: death row himself. I feel like this should have been

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Speaker 1: easy to beat.

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Speaker 3: So Rich had a terrible lawyer, guy named Wayne Farnarat.

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Speaker 3: In the first trial, he never I don't even know

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Speaker 3: if he ever tried a case before. He was completely

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Speaker 3: incompetent and put on no witnesses, didn't know how to

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Speaker 3: cross examine anybody. Basically, the case went exactly as the

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Speaker 3: prosecutors wanted it to go, and Rich was sentenced to death.

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Speaker 3: Vaornerot had no idea how to do a penalty phase

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Speaker 3: in a death case. He didn't do any investigation. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Rich was a guy without a criminal history at all.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if you're talking about the death penalty in

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Speaker 3: the United States, you're supposedly talking about the worst of

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Speaker 3: the worst. Well, Rich had never committed a crime before.

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Speaker 3: How could he possibly be the worst of the worst?

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Speaker 3: Is this crime bad?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Is it the worst crime ever? No, it's not the

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Speaker 3: worst crime ever. So he doesn't fit that category at all.

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Speaker 3: And yet, because of the way things were in Oklahoma

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Speaker 3: at the time, they were able to get a conviction

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Speaker 3: and a death sentence.

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Speaker 1: Right, So was Rich convicted solely on the basis of

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Speaker 1: the testimony of a murderous meth head or was there

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Speaker 1: some sort of other evidence offered a trial?

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Speaker 3: I would answer the question in both ways. Yes, no question.

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Speaker 3: It was really all about what Snead said, and he

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Speaker 3: said very many different things at different times. He initially

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Speaker 3: told the police that Glossop told him to kill Van

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Speaker 3: Trees and rob him of somewhere around five thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: and they would split it. But by the time the

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Speaker 3: first trial rolled around, Snead added things like Rich told

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Speaker 3: me to go buy some muriatic acid because we were

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Speaker 3: going to melt the body and I wasn't able to

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Speaker 3: do that. So Sneid had a variety of stories that

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Speaker 3: ultimately came out that just simply shows that he was

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Speaker 3: not telling the truth. He was never consistent with anything

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Speaker 3: that he said, and the prosecutor had to sort of

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Speaker 3: cobble together what the Court of Appeals would later call

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Speaker 3: corroborating evidence that was really really weak from a standpoint

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Speaker 3: of corroborating evidence. They had put together a spreadsheet and

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Speaker 3: an allegation that Rich was stealing money, that somehow or another,

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Speaker 3: the Van Trees family knew he was stealing money and

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Speaker 3: that they were about to fire him, and Rich knew

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Speaker 3: he was about to be fired, and so that formed

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Speaker 3: the motive for Rich to do this killing. There is

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Speaker 3: no real evidence of that. We took a look at

436
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 3: that spreadsheet, which by the way, no one did until

437
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 3: we got involved in this case. We have two forensic

438
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 3: accountants who looked at it and they said, the idea

439
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 3: that Rich was stealing money based upon the information that

440
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 3: we see is crazy.

441
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: So after his first conviction, Rich took his case to

442
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals, who called the evidence

443
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: against him extremely weak.

444
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 3: And the Oklahoma Court or Criminal Appeals looked at the

445
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 3: job that Wayne Farnerott did and said this can't be okay,

446
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 3: and they in a unanimous verdict, which never happened. Ondirect

447
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 3: Appeal threw it back and said he gets a new trial.

448
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: Right. So the second trial rolls around and Oklahoma is

449
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: not done with their dirty tricks. And you know what

450
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the way that they managed to remove

451
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 1: an attorney who was prepared to probably win this case

452
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: and right this wrong.

453
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, this lawyer was the appellate lawyer for Rich a

454
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 3: guy named Lynn Birch, did a great job getting the

455
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 3: case tossed out on appeal, decided to keep it, and

456
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 3: was working the case leading up to this second trial

457
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: when he made an error, and that is going to

458
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 3: see Justin Snead. The night before the trial began. They

459
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 3: think Lynn Birch was looking to see if there was

460
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 3: some way that Snead would simply come clean and tell

461
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 3: the truth. The air that Lynn Burch made was not

462
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: taking an investigator with him, not taking a third party.

463
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 3: Because when he showed up in court the next morning,

464
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 3: the prosecutor said, Judge, we've got a problem. Lynn Birch

465
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: was threatening our witness and was harassing Justin Snead. Rather

466
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 3: than fight that, which I think Burch should have done,

467
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 3: he should have said, I didn't do anything like that.

468
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 3: I never said anything wrong. Let me tell you what

469
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 3: I told him. Put me on the witness stand, put

470
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: sneed on the witness stand, let's have it out. Birch

471
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 3: simply said, you know, okay, you know, I probably screwed

472
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 3: up in there, and he left the case the morning

473
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 3: of trial, which caused a six month extension. But with

474
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 3: Birch gone, it left it in the hands of two

475
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 3: lawyers who were not prepared for the trial, and he

476
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 3: did very little. The lead up to the next trial.

477
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 3: They did no investigation, they put on no witnesses, Their

478
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 3: cross examinations were horrible. They allowed the prosecution to run

479
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 3: wild with leading questions. Basically, the kids were greased and

480
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 3: the prosecution just got their case through like they wanted.

481
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 2: In the second trial, it was really strange because the

482
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: prosecutor came into the courtroom, she looked at the jury

483
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 2: and she goes, I have no evidence against Richard Glad

484
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,959
Speaker 2: just justin sneath. So now it becomes who you're going

485
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 2: to believe. Every witness had new testimony who when they

486
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 2: were asked, oh, you didn't remember it the day it happened,

487
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: but you remember it seven years later, and they would

488
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 2: sit there and say, the prosecutor helped us remember.

489
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: As a result, the results were predictable, which is that

490
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: in August two thousand and four, another Oklahoma jury found

491
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: Richard guilty and Richard gets sentenced to death again.

492
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: It's strange how you go through your whole life doing

493
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: what's right, think that you know, if you tell the

494
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 2: truth and then everything's going to be okay. And then

495
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: you're standing there when somebody says, you know, we find

496
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 2: you guilty of murder and you had nothing to do

497
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: with this time, and your just your mouth just balls

498
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: open and this feeling comes over you, like, how can

499
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: this possibly be happening to me? This doesn't make sense.

500
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 2: It's one of the strangest feelings that's really hard to

501
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 2: put into word, but it's just like every part of

502
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 2: you just goes numb. It's like you're just in shock

503
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: and you don't know, you don't even have a response

504
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 2: to it. You just stand there and you just like

505
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: you just can't even believe it. It's one of the

506
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: most overwhelming things I've ever had to face, you know.

507
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 2: When I walked in, they they take you to the

508
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 2: main gate up there and they put you in this

509
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 2: little shack. Why they wait to get people to take

510
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: you down to Agena where you're supposed to go. And

511
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: I got to be honest with you, when they open

512
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: that door, like your hole just like disappears almost immediately

513
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: because it's so gloomy and so cold. In all honesty,

514
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 2: it felt like death. It just felt like you were

515
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 2: surrounded by death.

516
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: Rich I want you to know that there are a

517
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: lot of good people who are out of here pulling

518
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,239
Speaker 1: for you more than you even know. And so you

519
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: ended up exhausting all of your appeals with substandard representation

520
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: who never did any of the necessary investigation into your case.

521
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: So predictably you had more of the same results, which

522
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: brings us to your clemency proceedings back in twenty fourteen.

523
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: Which turned out to be just as big of a

524
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: fiasco as my trials did. I was turned down for clemency,

525
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: and the reason being is not only was there a

526
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: prosecutor from my case on the board, Bob Macy's son

527
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: was as well, and when we brought to their attentions

528
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: after him, I was denied clemacy. The clemency boy claimed

529
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: that they had no idea that she had been a

530
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: prosecutor on my case.

531
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: Did she not remember she knew me really well? And

532
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: Bob Macy's son is there as well.

533
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, Masy someone still has something to do with the

534
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: billboard today.

535
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: I'm rarely at a loss for words, but that is

536
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: just ridiculous.

537
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: I know, why don't we have anybody that had anything

538
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: to do with Bob may or his office on a

539
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: parole board that deals with that's row inmates.

540
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: So your clemency was denied, but you didn't take that

541
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: sitting down.

542
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 2: In October twenty fourteen, I started this campaign. I was

543
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 2: writing letters, hundreds of letters to everybody. I wrote letters

544
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: to John McCain, who answered me, by the way, who

545
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: I became friends with, and he introduced my case to

546
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: people here in Oklahoma like Tom Kobern and others who

547
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 2: sit up for me back then.

548
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: So, while Richard was fighting for his life, other significant

549
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: events were in foot concerning the way in which the

550
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: state planned to kill him and others. Lethal injection. Lethal

551
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: injection as a method of state sanctioned murder, consists of

552
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: three drugs. A sedative, which depresses the nervous system and

553
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: renders the person unconscious, next, a paralytic, which provides skeletal

554
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: and muscular relaxation as well as depresses respiration, and finally,

555
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: a potassium solution which causes cardiac arrest. The most common

556
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: lethal injection drug combination is for the sedative sodium theopental

557
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: or pentobarbitol, then pancuronium bromide as the paralytic, and finally

558
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: potassium chloride, which causes the heart attack. In twenty eleven,

559
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: some American pharma companies halted production of sodium theopental, and

560
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: the European Union enacted a torture regulation that banned the

561
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: export of drugs for the use of lethal injections, starting

562
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: with sodium theopental and later pentobarbitol. By twenty fourteen, states

563
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: were experiencing a shortage of the necessary drugs, which affected

564
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: their ability to carry out death sentences according to protocol.

565
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: Oklahoma began looking for alternatives like medazzelam in place of

566
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: sodium theopental. Following this change, the forty three minute long

567
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: botched execution of Clayton Lockett on April twenty nine, twenty fourteen.

568
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: Another death throw inmate, Charles Warner, awaited the same fate

569
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: that night, just steps away from the death chamber, but

570
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: as a result of the horror of Lockett's execution, warners

571
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: was delayed. After an investigation, Oklahoma blamed an inability to

572
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: find Lockett's veins as the cause of the botched execution

573
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: and decided to continue with the same drug protocol involving

574
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: medazzelam as a sedative, prompting Richard, Charles Warner, and nineteen

575
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: others to sue Oklahoma, and eventually they took the case

576
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States.

577
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: While this was being litigated, Richard's clemency was denied and

578
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: his campaign from death row was just beginning. He got

579
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: in touch with renowned death penalty abolition as Sister Helen

580
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: Prejon with his first execution date an warners looming in

581
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: January twenty fifteen.

582
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: So in late twenty fourteen, he calls Sister Helen, or

583
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 3: he sends her a letter and says, hey, sister Helen,

584
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: you know, will you be with me when they kill me?

585
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 3: And she looks into the case a little bit and

586
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: then she calls me and I got together with another

587
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 3: lawyer named Mark Olive who does a lot of state

588
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 3: habeas work. And by now we're out of options. I mean,

589
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: there's no court appearances left, clemency has been done. Basically,

590
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: we're out of options. At this point in time, rich

591
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: comes up for an execution date.

592
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: So Oklahoma sets the date for January twenty ninth, twenty fifteen.

593
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: And a lot of people don't know this, but in

594
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: Oklahoma and other states, a period of real psychological torture

595
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: begins prior to execution.

596
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: Now, I was taken upstairs. They take you up thirty

597
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: five days prior to your execution. You have to sit

598
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: in this room that is so brightly lit for twenty

599
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: four hours a day. Lights never go off so bright

600
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: that I can see a tiny ant walking across a

601
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: dark and gray floor. That's how bright that room is.

602
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: You're on camera twenty four to seven, and you have

603
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: a guard sitting outside your door. Twenty four seven. You

604
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: can't cover your head, you can't do any of that.

605
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 2: This is what people have to endure in Oklahoma before

606
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: they're executed.

607
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: While he and one are away to death. The suit

608
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: continued in litigation, and on January thirteenth, twenty fifteen, the

609
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: group of condemned prisoner's petition the US Supreme Court for

610
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: a writ of certierrari and stays of their executions as

611
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: evidenced by other botched executions in Ohio and Arizona. The

612
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: petitioners argued that the medazolam would not numb the pain

613
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: that would be caused by the other two drugs, so

614
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: on January fifteenth, the lead petitioner, Charles Warner, was denied

615
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: a stay and executed later that day over the descent

616
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: of four justices, leaving Richard as the next in line.

617
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: Sister Helen and a bunch of people were there visiting me.

618
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: It was the day before I was supposed to be executed.

619
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 2: It was funny because Sister Helen came like I seen

620
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: her head like moving up and down in the crowd,

621
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: and she gave me the phone and it was the Vatican.

622
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: And I got talked to the Vatican that day. And

623
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 2: as soon as I got done, the guards ran everybody

624
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 2: out of there to say, you got an attorney call.

625
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: So they set me down and gave me the phone,

626
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: and my attorney said, the Supreme Court just gave you

627
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: a stay and you are now going to Supreme Court

628
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 2: against lethal ingestion.

629
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 3: Sister Helen was able to mobilize a lot of people

630
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 3: and put some petitions together, and the Supreme Court, while

631
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 3: they didn't grant a stay for Charles Warner, based on

632
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 3: basically the same information on the lethal injection drug granted

633
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 3: rich a stay, and so he got to stay about

634
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: twenty four hours in advance of his first execut date

635
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 3: to have his case gloss OFP. B. Gross go before

636
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: the United States Supreme.

637
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: Court, And so there was a whole place on all

638
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 1: executions in Oklahoma until the ruling was made. On June

639
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: twenty ninth, twenty fifteen, in the last day of the

640
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 1: Supreme Court's term. They ruled five to four against Richard

641
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: and the condemned prisoners, allowing me dazolam as the sedative,

642
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 1: and Richard's execution date was set for September fifteenth, twenty fifteen,

643
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: so thirty five days prior the death ritual began again.

644
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 3: They actually move you to a cell that's about four

645
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 3: cells away from the actual death chamber, and you're in

646
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 3: that cell for a few days, and then they bring

647
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 3: you to the third cell, one closer to the death chamber,

648
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: and they leave you there for a few days, and

649
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: then they bring you to the second cell, one more

650
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 3: step closer to the death chamber, and then they move

651
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 3: you to the cell next to the death chamber. And

652
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 3: if that's not torture in and of itself, by the

653
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 3: time you get to that final thing. You can see

654
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 3: the people coming and going from the death chamber. You

655
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 3: know what's happening, you know what they're preparing, you know

656
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 3: what they're going to do. And Rich was subject to

657
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 3: that for a long period of time. Because we ended

658
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 3: up with a stay of execution on September fifteenth. He

659
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 3: had already been subjected to that, he'd already been brought

660
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 3: to that final place. It was two hours in advance

661
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 3: of the execution that hit that the second execution was stopped,

662
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 3: and then we had a two weeks stay so that

663
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 3: Rich was moved once again, just back to where he

664
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 3: had been and to start that whole process over again.

665
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 3: So Rich was subjected to this incredible emotional torture in

666
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: advance of the third execution date, which was set for

667
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 3: September thirtieth of twenty fifteen.

668
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: I was in a lit room for fifty four straight days,

669
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: no darkness whatsoever. It's crazy what they put you through.

670
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 2: They do mock executions in front of you. And I'm

671
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: not trying to compare Oklahoma to Isis, but it's no

672
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: different than what ISUS does to people. When they pull

673
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: somebody out, they put a sword to their neck, they

674
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: act like they're going to chop their head off, and

675
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 2: then they stop and they say, oh, we're going to

676
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: wait for another day, put them back in himself, you know.

677
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 2: And then they put the guy back in and bring

678
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: him out the next day and keep doing this. I mean,

679
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: where do we draw the line at torture, because this

680
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 2: is torture. My first date, I got to stay the

681
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 2: day before my execution. The second time I got to

682
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: stay hours before my execution. The third time I got

683
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: to stay after my execution was supposed to have taken place.

684
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: And these days came with a lot of work. Don

685
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: so for the second one. On September fifteenth, few filed

686
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: motions presenting new evidence, including a July ninety seven psychevaluation

687
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: showing Sneed was aware of the charges against him and

688
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: that he made no mention of Richard, as well as

689
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: the numerous people Sneed confessed to along the way that

690
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: he had acted alone and saved his own hide by

691
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: implicating Richard. But despite all of that, on September twenty eighth,

692
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals voted three to two

693
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: to proceed with the execution, and the Supreme Court also

694
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: deny to stay. Then the governor granted a stay on

695
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: the thirtieth, citing that Oklahoma, contrary to lethal injection drug protocol,

696
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: had received potassium acetate, a freaking food preservative, instead of

697
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: potassium chloride for the cardiac arrest inducing portion of the cocktail.

698
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: So then Richard got a thirty seven day stay to

699
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: November sixth, twenty fifteen.

700
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: And it was interesting when that happened because sister Hillam

701
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: was outside the prison and she was saying, it's a

702
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 2: Richard Glossip preservative, because the drug they were going to

703
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: use was actually used as a preservative, you know. But

704
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 2: I think the scariest thing about that time was when

705
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 2: the governor at the time told the first second in

706
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: command who was there, google it. When we'd gotten to

707
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 2: a point in a societiety where we google how to

708
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 2: execute people? Or is it okay to use certain drugs

709
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 2: to execute people? That should just end the destiny by itself.

710
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: It makes no sense to me at all that we

711
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: entrust so many deeply flawed humans with the machinery of death,

712
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, here we are. So on October first, twenty fifteen,

713
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Prewitt asked the Court of Criminal

714
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: Appeals to issue an indefinite stay of all executions, citing

715
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: the acquisition of the wrong drugs. Then, on October eighth,

716
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 1: it was revealed that Charles Warner had been killed using

717
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: potassium acetate, the food preservative, contrary to protocol. Dag Prewit

718
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 1: then ordered a multi county grand jury investigation, and this

719
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: put a hold on executions in Oklahoma. And with this moratorium,

720
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: the famous documentarian Joe Burlin, who made Paradise Lost about

721
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: the West Memphis three, got involved to help uncover more

722
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: evidence and make the incredibly powerful docuseries Killing Richard Glossip

723
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: that we've been referencing.

724
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 4: I'm Joe Burlinger, and I guess they've been talking about

725
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 4: my docuseries Killing Richard Glossop. I mean, this case, to

726
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 4: me is the very definition of why there should be

727
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 4: no death penalty. It just demonstrates how easily innocent people

728
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 4: can be put to death. This was a spontaneous act

729
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 4: of an opportunistic robbery that went awry, and all the

730
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 4: evidence suggests that, and no evidence points to Richard Glossop,

731
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 4: even the fact that when they found money on each

732
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 4: of them, the fact that there was blood on the

733
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 4: two thousand dollars that Sneed had in his pocket, and

734
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 4: Richard's money had no blood on it. Here you have

735
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 4: a murder for higher plot. And yet he himself, Justin

736
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 4: Sneed says in his original statement, and he said it

737
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 4: again to me when I interviewed him, that he never

738
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 4: really intended to kill Barry van Trees. He just was

739
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 4: hoping to kind of immobilize him. Well, then, how is

740
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 4: it a murder for higher plot? I mean, that very

741
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 4: basic fact makes it impossible to believe his story.

742
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 1: So the one thing that Sneed has been consistent about

743
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 1: is that he never meant to kill Barry van Trees.

744
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: So through his own repeated admissions, he denies Rich's involvement.

745
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: Rich was supposed to have ordered him, remember, according to

746
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 1: the state, to rob and kill Barry. But if he

747
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: never intended to kill Barry, then he could not have

748
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 1: been operating under Rich's authority. Therefore there was no murder

749
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 1: for higher plot. Richard could never have been involved. I mean, which,

750
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: justin Snead, are we supposed to believe the Sneed who

751
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: says Richard told me to do it, so I had

752
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: to do it, or the Sneed who never intended to

753
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: kill Barry van tries despite the alleged quote unquote orders

754
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: of Richard Classip. He can't be both not that any

755
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: of this matters to our legal processes, as actual innocence

756
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 1: does not entitle one to relief according to the United

757
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: States Supreme Court. So don where do we stand now?

758
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 3: So we've got several new witnesses, people that nobody has

759
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: ever heard. We know the story now, we heard it

760
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 3: from Sneed's mouth through at least two or three witnesses.

761
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 3: We know what happened in this case, and we know

762
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 3: that rich didn't have anything to do with this murder

763
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 3: at all. And so we are ready to go to

764
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 3: the Pardon and Parole Board with this new information. We

765
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 3: would go to court, but we've already been to court

766
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen. We lost there. There are procedural bars

767
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 3: that are in place to keep us from even getting

768
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 3: a chance to fairly litigate this innocence again. So right

769
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 3: now the state of Oklahoma is set to once again

770
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 3: begin the process of killing people. There is an end

771
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 3: to the current lawsuit that's going on with Rich's name

772
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 3: on it. Again, it's the success of a gloss of

773
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 3: be gross and once the court makes a ruling on

774
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 3: the protocol that they know how to kill somebody with

775
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 3: whatever drug they use. They're going to go ahead and

776
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 3: begin to set dates once again, and we don't know

777
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 3: if rich.

778
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 2: Will be first.

779
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,439
Speaker 3: He doesn't have to be first, but he was last up.

780
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 3: It's entirely possible that he will be the first one

781
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 3: set for execution, and that could take place sometime in

782
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 3: the late summer.

783
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 2: The worst case scenario, they could set a date on

784
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: July first.

785
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say anymore. His fate

786
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: has essentially been determined, barring action from the parle Board

787
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: and the executive branch, but his legal fate has been

788
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,720
Speaker 1: sealed because of technical considerations.

789
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: In twenty fifteen, we have two judges who, based upon

790
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 3: the evidence we had then, which is a shadow of

791
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 3: the evidence that we have now at that point in time,

792
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 3: two judges said we want to give this guy hearing

793
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 3: on his innocence claim, but three judges said we won't,

794
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 3: simply because of finality of judgment. That was their whole point.

795
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 3: That's the court's point is we can't let this go

796
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 3: on forever. We're going to stop it. Like you said,

797
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 3: innocence doesn't matter. That's the legal posture that we face today.

798
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: Right That awful decision was Herrera versus Collins in nineteen

799
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: ninety three, where the Supreme Court said what I just said,

800
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: evidence of innocence is not enough to stop the wheels

801
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: of justice from turning and in this case, turning right

802
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: into a state sponsored murder of an innocent man named

803
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: Richard Glossen.

804
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 2: I'm asking everybody to go to say Richard glossa dot com,

805
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: to sign the petitions that we have, but to also

806
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: participate in everything that we're doing to try to bring

807
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: justice reforms so that we can prevent this from happening

808
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: to other people. This isn't always about one person, and

809
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: that's what I've always tried to make clear to people.

810
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 2: This is about many innocent people who are facing what

811
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: I'm facing, and I don't want them to face it.

812
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: I don't want them to go through what I went through.

813
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: We got to stand up as a society. We have

814
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 2: to stand up as a people. We have to stand

815
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 2: up and say, hey, we're not going to tolerate this anymore.

816
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 2: We got to change this. We got to permit innocent

817
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: be executed, and we got to open people's eyes to

818
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 2: why this is such a barbaric practice and why it

819
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 2: should no longer take place.

820
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: Go to save Richard glossip dot com. We'll also have

821
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 1: links in the bio for action steps that you can take,

822
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: and you know, with that, I want to turn it

823
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 1: over to YouTube. Guys, thank you for being here with

824
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: us today and spreading the word about this awful injustice.

825
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: And well, now we turn to what we call closing arguments.

826
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: This is a section of the show where I turned

827
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: my microphone off, back in my chair, leave my headphones on,

828
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: close my eyes, and just listen to whatever you have

829
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: to say that we may have left out, or anything

830
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: you want to share with our audience. So, Richard, we're

831
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: going to save you for last and let Don go first.

832
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: And again, Richard, I just want you to know we're

833
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: all out here thinking about you. So many people are

834
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: praying for you, and we hope to see you free

835
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 1: before too long. Over to you, Don.

836
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Jason. I really appreciate you taking the

837
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 3: time to shine a light on this terrible case and

838
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 3: this terrible injustice that we are hoping to stop with

839
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 3: a hearing later this year, Richard glossiped a simple guy

840
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 3: who was in love with a young woman Richard loved

841
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 3: his job at the best budget in loved Barry Van Trees.

842
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 3: They had a great relationship. Rich never took any money

843
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 3: from Barry Van Trees and very respected Rich. And a

844
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 3: terrible murder took place that rich did not have anything

845
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 3: at all to do with, and the wheels of justice

846
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 3: began to turn in Oklahoma City the way that they

847
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 3: did back in those days with Bob Macy, and those

848
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 3: wheels just simply ran over Richard Glossop. He was a

849
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 3: victim of very very poor lawyering, of over aggressive police work,

850
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 3: of over aggressive prosecutors who only cared about one thing,

851
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 3: and that was getting a conviction and getting a death sentence,

852
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 3: because that was the culture of Oklahoma City at the time.

853
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 3: There was a series of three letters to the current

854
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 3: District Attorney, David Prater. We have requested a lot of

855
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 3: substantive information that we believe would prove that rich Glossop

856
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 3: had nothing to do with this, and we have received

857
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 3: no answers. We continue to wait for David Prater. So

858
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 3: at this point in time, we're preparing for a clemency

859
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 3: hearing that we know will take place later this year,

860
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 3: and we are hoping that people will go to save Richard.

861
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 3: You can find a petition there to the governor and

862
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,879
Speaker 3: the Partner and Parole Board, letting those people know that

863
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 3: this is wrong, what's happening, and that the only way

864
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 3: to write it is to grant rich clemency and allow

865
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 3: us to get back into court again.

866
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: What were to you, rich You know when I walked in,

867
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: I took that first step on agent it, on death row.

868
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 2: I said that I have two choices. I can make

869
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 2: peace with death or I can let it destroy me.

870
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: And so I made peace with death right then and there,

871
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: and I just said, I'm not going to let it

872
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 2: destroy me. I'm going to be the same person I

873
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: was and I am to this day. I sing in

874
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: my cell out loud, I laughed, I dance around, and

875
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 2: guards are always freaking out because I'm the way that

876
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 2: I am. And I told them, I said, you know,

877
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 2: I was a happy guy my whole life, and I'm

878
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: not going to let this change who I am because

879
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: we only have one life to live and it's a gift.

880
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: And I'm going to celebrate life no matter where the

881
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 2: hell I'm at, even in this hole, I'm going to

882
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 2: celebrate life. I've heard so many stories about people who

883
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: lost it down on Atue and I've seen it for myself.

884
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 2: I've witnessed it myself, and there are a lot of

885
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 2: people with serious mental health issues because you're isolated for

886
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: years and years and years, and it's yeah, it's hard.

887
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: And thankfully, you know, I had my art. I've written songs.

888
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 2: I've written so many poems. I've written a book which

889
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: I can't wait to get get out there to people,

890
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: because it's a book of hope. It's a book of

891
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 2: showing people that you do have more strengthen you know,

892
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: and you can take your courage and you can move

893
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 2: forward and you can have hope at the end. And

894
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 2: I described the three execution attempt. I describe everything because

895
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: I want people to know no matter how bad things get,

896
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: there is always something good that will come from the

897
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 2: worst situations you face in life. You just got to

898
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 2: fight for it and you've got to make sure it happens.

899
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,439
Speaker 2: So it's we're in a fight. We're in a big

900
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 2: fight with legislators and people in the state of Oklahoma

901
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 2: who we're standing up saying we need to prevent this

902
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: and hopefully we can succeed because I do have a

903
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 2: lot more like lifts, and I do have a lot

904
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: more battle to raise against the destbility. Look at like

905
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 2: what's happening here in Oklahoma, one of the biggest Republican

906
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: states in the country, and you have Republicans now staying

907
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: and up saying we're not going to tolerate this anymore.

908
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 2: We're not going to kill innocent people. I'm proud of

909
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 2: Legislator mcdoogle and Legislator Humphrey, and you know, even the

910
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 2: local businessman Justin Jesson. I'm really proud of these people

911
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 2: because they're diehard conservative and yet they're standing us for

912
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 2: innocence because it's not a left thing, and it's not

913
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: a right thing. It's an innocent thing. And we've got

914
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 2: to stop using politics in justice reform. We all want

915
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 2: the right things. If we don't, then then you shouldn't

916
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: be an office. We all want fair, we all want justice.

917
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 2: And that's why I've always said that take the blindfold

918
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: off of Lady Justice, because that's one of the days

919
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,839
Speaker 2: that's always weirded me out over the years, as you're saying, well,

920
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: she's fine, sold fold us so she can be fair.

921
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 2: How can you be fair if you can't see what's

922
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 2: going on, So take the mindfold awesome letter, see what's

923
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: going on, and she'll see alfair of justice really is

924
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 2: in that country.

925
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

926
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the

927
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help.

928
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff

929
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: Clyburn and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show, as always,

930
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

931
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 2: Be sure to.

932
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook

933
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is

934
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with

935
00:51:49,280 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one.