WEBVTT - #213 Jason Flom with Joe Bryan 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:05.680 Beloved couple Joe and Mickey Bryan, who had no children 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:09.079 of their own, instead dedicated their lives to educating the 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:12.720 children of Clifton, Texas. But while Joe attended an annual 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.560 high school principal conference one hundred and twenty miles away 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:20.079 in Austin, tragedy struck on October fifteenth, nineteen eighty five. 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.279 After Mickey did not arrive at her fourth grade classroom 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:25.919 and could not be reached, her principal went to the 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:30.360 Brian home with Mickey's parents and found a gruesome crime scene. 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:34.840 Gunshots had spattered the walls, ceiling, and betting with Mickey's blood, 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:38.559 and friends drove a distraught Joe Briant home from Austin. 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:43.360 There were no witnesses, a missing gun and jewelry, a cigarette, 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.159 but in a non smoking home, it looked like a 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:50.839 burglary gone bat until Mickey's brother Charlie borrowed Joe's car 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.720 while home for the funeral and allegedly found a flashlight 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:58.200 in the trunk that tested positive for a few specks 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.280 of the most common blood type TYPEO, same as Mickey's. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:07.000 The sheer absurdity of Joe racing from Austin to Clifton 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:11.040 and back unseen, free of physical evidence, and without a motive. 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.399 Was overcome by this one object that was found outside 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.040 of the crime scene, in a car that was not 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:23.200 in Joe's possession. Despite DNA testing, it cast doubt on 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.000 the flashlights connection to the crime scene, and evidence that 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.760 pointed squarely at a murderous police officer who later took 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.039 his own life. Joe Brian had to wait thirty five 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.920 long years for parole to finally set him free. This 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:54.840 is wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to wrongful 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.600 conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me, of course, I'm your host. 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.360 And two and a half years ago I read a 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.760 profoundly troubling series of articles in The New York Times, 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.360 originally published in pro public of my Pam Collof, about 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.840 the astounding case of Joe Bran, who served thirty five 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.200 years in prison in Texas for a crime there is 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.120 a zero percent possibility that he ever could have committed. 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.679 And you'll find out why as we go along. And 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.000 it has haunted me ever since that day, and so 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:31.639 I'm just deeply honored to have the man himself, Joe 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.400 Brian all seventy nine years of age of him with 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:36.640 us today on the show. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:41.679 So, Joe, you missed it a year? Oh did I 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.839 miss a year? I'm oh, happy birthday. He's eighty years old. 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:46.960 The congratulations. 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.320 Well, I'm sorry you're here because of why you're here, 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.920 but I'm very very happy and honored that you're here 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:57.920 and with Joe is a renowned attorney Jesse Freud, thank 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.000 you also for being here today on Raefel. 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:02.520 Thank you for including me. Appreciate it. 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.560 And I think this story is important for so many 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:09.640 reasons because if anyone in the audist is thinking, well, 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:11.799 that could never happen to me, If it could happen 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:13.480 to Joe, it could happen to you. And what I 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.120 mean by that is, Joe, you led not just an 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:20.200 exemplary life, but really a rich fulfilling life up until 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.760 this happened. And can you take us back all the 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:24.840 way to your childhood and how you grew up in a 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:26.280 small town in Texas, right. 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.720 Grew up in Waco, grew up on a farm, ran 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:35.360 animals and family, and headed absolutely wonderful childhood, tended church 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:39.280 regularly and looking back, I had a very idyllic. 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:42.880 Life, And how did you find your way into the 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:47.440 field of education at which you excelled right becoming ultimately 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:53.840 a really loved and revered educator in Clifton, Texas, the 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:55.600 principal of the school. But how did you make your 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:57.200 decision to get into education. 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:01.320 I always liked school, but at our church I started 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.160 playing the piano full time when I was thirteen, And 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.040 our church and our song leader was my principal at school, 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.560 and I had tremendous respect for him, and I guess 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:14.360 you could say that he is instrumental in guiding me 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:18.680 in that direction. So I've always lived and breathed and 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.599 thought education. Mickey and I were unfortunate enough not to 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:26.480 be able to have children. We both lived in breathed education. 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.720 I helped her with our listening plans, with grading papers. 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.120 We would discuss teaching objectives and gos and how to 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.880 reach them. Then it was great. 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.479 It sounds like it was. And from what I understand, 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.240 the high school, middle and elementary schools were all on 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.839 the same campus, and you were the high school principal 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:47.960 and Mickey was the fourth grade teacher, and the two 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.400 of you were obviously well known in the small town 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:52.960 of Clifton, having had a hand to the education of 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.560 so many of the people there. So your shared dedication 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.919 had made you to revered by parents and students alike, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.320 which brings me back to my point that if a 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:07.560 beloved figure like yourself, who was leading an upstanding, fulfilling life, 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:11.440 if this could happen to you, then nobody out there 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.400 is safe because it could happen to anyone. And that 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:16.720 brings me to the next part of your story, which 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.560 of course is October fourteenth, nineteen eighty five. Now you 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.240 were out of town at an annual Texas Secondary School's 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:28.160 Principals conference one hundred and twenty miles away in Austin, Texas, 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:30.280 and this is a conference you who had attended for 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.640 the previous fourteen years. Mickey had seen her parents Otis 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.800 and Fira Blue that afternoon, as well as spoken to 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:40.279 you as you graded papers and watched the cmas in 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.240 your hotel room. The Country Music wards in Austin around 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.800 nine pm that night. So now the following day, October fifteenth, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:49.880 nineteen eighty five, Mickey, who was usually the first one 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:54.240 to arrive at school, never did. The elementary school principal, 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.559 Rex Daniels, was obviously concerned so he called your home 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.960 and got no answer, So, knowing that you were in Austin, 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.560 he called Mickey's parents, Otis and Verra, who met him 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.960 at your home with the spare Key and her mother. 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:10.360 And this gives me the chills. Was the first to 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:16.600 see the horrific and bloody crime scene in your bedroom, 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:21.240 her daughter's body, Mickey's body laid across the length of 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:23.960 the bed. Her nightgown was drawn up to her thighs, 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.839 she was undressed from the waist down, and blood was 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:30.760 spattered on the bed, the ceiling, and all four walls 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.240 from apparent gunshots to the head and abdomen. And at 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.040 this point Rex led the Blues ODIs Everra to the 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:40.240 living room where they called the police. And then, of 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:44.680 course Joe, you received that awful, awful news. 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:50.000 So Joe is alerted to the discovery of her body 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.799 and to what happened to her. While he is in Austin, 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.479 several friends from Clifton drive down to get him because 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:00.000 of the distraught state he was in, and drive him 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:01.000 back to Clifton. 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.440 So the Texas Rangers led this investigation, as they often 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.440 did in rural towns like Clifton and Texas ranger Joe 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:11.920 Wiley interviewed you, Joe, and you answered all the questions, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.800 telling them about the three fifty seven loaded with birdshot 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:17.520 that you kept in the bedroom, as well as a 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.400 cash box under the bed that usually held around one 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:21.200 thousand dollars. 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:22.240 Both of them were. 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.840 Reported missing at the time, as were Mickey's watch, wedding band, 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.520 and diamond ring. There were no witnesses, no neighbors reported 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.880 hearing anything, no obvious signs of forced entry, no bloody fingerprints, 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.320 no seamen found in the rake kit so there was 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.520 very little for the rangers to go on. Oddly, a cigarette, though, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.040 was found on the kitchen floor. Now this is important 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.120 because Mickey didn't smoke, and neither did you, Joe. It 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:51.800 looked like a burglary gone bed. Now, Mickey's brother, Charlie Blue, 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:54.800 was the vice president of an agrochemical firm out of Florida. 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.240 He came to town with the investigator that the company 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.320 kept on retainer, an ex FBI agent named Bud Saunders. Now, 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:04.480 while Charlie was in town for Mickey's funeral, Joe lent 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:09.040 Charlie his car and somewhere along the few days in 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.520 which the car was in Charlie's possession. A flashlight with 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:18.920 reddish brown specs was allegedly spontaneously found in the trunk 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:19.200 of the. 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.240 Car, and so Joe's car is out of his possession 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.040 for a period of about five days, and then the 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.559 flashlight is discovered when the car is in Joe's brother 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:33.000 in law's possession. So the tipping point for and really 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.160 the only point that supported Joe's arrest, was the discovery 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.280 of the flashlight in his. 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.480 Car, and later DNA testing cast out on whether this 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.120 flashlight was ever even at the crime scene at all. 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.400 But nevertheless, unbeknownst to Joe at the time, a search 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.480 warrant of the car was executed and the flashlight was 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.280 sent to the state crime lab. Now this was nineteen 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.079 eighty five, so there was no DNA testing, just soroology, 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.439 and the testing done at the time determined that some 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.840 of us back actually were blood the most common blood type, oh, 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.280 which also happened to be Mickey's blood type. Now, those 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.960 speckles were found on an object that was not found 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.079 at the crime scene, but in one of the couple's 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:20.240 two cars, which was curiously not in Joe's possession. When 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:24.760 the flashlight was allegedly found bind you if Joe had 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.480 committed this crime, would he be using a flashlight to 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.880 find his way around his own home to sneak up 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.080 on his own wife. I mean, the state's theory is 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.160 absolutely ridiculous, and this is just one of the many 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.800 reasons why. So the car was not impounded, but rather 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.720 released to Charlie Blue, who left it in Joe's driveway. 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:52.320 So Joe has no idea that his car has been searched. 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.760 And this flashlight is the crux of the state's case, 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:03.080 supported by a few other pieces of extremely dubious evidence. 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:07.240 So their case really rested on four facts. The first 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.480 and most important was the discovery of the flashlight. The 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:13.960 second was a pair of what they said were semen 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:18.719 stained underwear discovered in Mickey and Joe's bathroom that at 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:22.439 the time in the eighties, they had said tested presumptively 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:26.920 positive for the presence of semen, and that was Joe's 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:27.720 blood type. 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.120 And I mean, it's his house, so to find what 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:34.680 maybe Joe's bodily fluids in his own home doesn't really 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:41.520 implicate him. I mean, it would incriminate an intruder, but 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:43.760 it's his freaking house. 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:49.360 Anyway continue, so it got flashlight underwear, a explanation that 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.600 Joe had given regarding opportunities for when the keys to 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.840 his vehicle were out of his possession. And then the 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:01.240 final point was the discovery of money in the trunk 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.640 of his car following its return to him from his 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:05.440 brother in law. 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.040 So the money that was initially reported missing from the 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.680 cash box under the bed didn't turn up when the 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.920 search of the car was conducted either, but rather Joe 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.080 reported finding the cash after the fact. It was eight 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.120 hundred and fifty dollars of the usual one thousand, and 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.880 Joe reported this to the authorities, remembering that he and 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.080 Mickey had taken the money to go shopping in Waco, 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.559 and somehow they were like, wait, maybe he's hiding something, 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.760 And so they try to use this to show motive 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:38.560 that Joe wanted to either steal from his wife right 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.520 or that he initially hid the cash to make it 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:42.079 seem like. 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:42.920 There was a robbery. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:48.080 But neither of those theories holds any water whatsoever. I mean, 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:53.400 he'd either be robbing himself because they're married, or if 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.840 he wanted the crime scene to look like a robbery, 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.679 why in the world would he then tell the authorities 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.920 about discovering the money. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever. 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:06.079 He would have just kept it to himself. 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.679 And so the state's theory of the case was that 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.640 Joe had slipped out of his Austin hotel, driven home, 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:17.280 let himself into his house with his key, shot mickey 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.200 with the gun that they had kept by their bed, 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.320 cleaned himself up after getting her blood all over him, 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:28.480 changed clothes and shoes, and drove back to his hotel 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.920 room in Austin, cleaned up again, and made it to 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:38.839 his morning teachers conference meeting. So that's the state's theory, right. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.600 And this is a fantastical theory on so many levels. 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.640 No one saw him do any of these things, right. 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.199 No one saw him leave the hotel, no one saw 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.079 him stop for gas, and it was pouring rain that night, 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.160 and no one saw him soaking wet coming or going. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:58.000 And Joe had a condition, right, immacula condition which meant 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.880 that he couldn't drive at night anyway, you couldn't see 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.480 to drive at night. And there was no physical evidence 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.680 that any of the things that the police said happened 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.680 actually happened. It's nonsensical and it wasn't just the fact 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.080 that he was one hundred and twenty miles away and 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.360 couldn't have realistically gone there and back without being seen 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.960 unless he was some sort of ghost, but also the 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.720 idea that he would have had to magically been able 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.960 to make all this blood disappear from his body, and 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.160 none of Mickey's blood got into the car either, that 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.280 he allegedly drove back to Austin that night except for 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.679 the phantom flashlight that if were to believe the state's theory, 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:35.720 he just totally fucked up and absentmindedly left it in 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:40.040 the trunk while he meticulously managed to scrub everything else 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:44.120 like some master crime scene manipulator, right, and then not 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.720 to mention he had no motive. In fact, the opposite 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.600 is true. They loved each other very much and everybody 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:55.199 knew it. It wasn't a troubled marriage as we sometimes see. 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.360 And just to the point of motive really quick. The 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:03.120 first trial was at actually reversed for an improper insinuation 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.880 that there was any financial motive for Joe to kill Mickey, 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.400 and his defense attorneys tried to respond to that inaccuracy, 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:13.480 they were denied by the trial court the right to 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.920 do so, and that's actually the reason why Joe's case 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.480 was reversed the first time and why he was retribed 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:22.720 so correct. There was never a motive established, and by 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.240 the second trial, the state concedes that and talks to 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:28.800 the jury panel about can you convict if we can't 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.640 tell you what the motive is. So they were absolutely 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.080 clear by the time the second trial rolls around that 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.200 there was no motive because this didn't happen. 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.800 Right, And you know, it gets worse when you start 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.720 to see the way that they smeared his character, and 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.640 of course it's a very contemporaneous story when we come 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.520 to find out later that, in fact, the logical suspect 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:53.960 and somebody who they knew to be the logical suspect 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:55.680 at the time was in fact one of their. 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:57.040 Own It was a police officer. 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.360 Because we cannot leave out at this this is the 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.520 small town of Clifton, Texas, and this was the second 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.120 murder and unsolved for the time being, in a very 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:08.240 short period of time. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:09.400 And of course we. 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.560 Know how that works, right, That creates the pressure. And 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.800 so Joe, do you mind telling us about that murder 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.240 and how that played a role in your wrongful conviction. 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:23.640 Judy Whitley, a high school student, was murdered. They didn't 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.080 know who did it. There were suspicions, but no facts. 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:31.080 People are alarmed that this could happen in our community 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:36.200 to a high school child. So the police department, so 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.040 to speak, is put under a lot of pressure to 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.080 find whoever killed Judy Whitley. Well, my opinion, based on 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.320 what I know now is that Dennis Dunlap did it. 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:52.160 Jesse, this Dennis Dunlop character is a very troubling and 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:57.480 profound example of how the sort of blue wall protects itself. 0:15:58.280 --> 0:15:59.960 So tell us about. 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:04.120 That Dunlap and what his role was in these two cases. 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.120 So, Dennis Dunlap was a member of the Clifton Police 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:12.800 Department in nineteen eighty five, and he was originally a 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.200 suspect in the Judy Whitley case, and that was because 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:22.040 he had a connection to Judy's family and suspicious items 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.560 found in his possession after he eventually leaves the police 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:29.440 department in the direction of the then Clifton Police chief. 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.560 And this was a situation where he tried to be 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.400 very involved from the get go. I don't think that's 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.440 very uncommon for actual perpetrators to try and find out 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.920 as much information as they can about the crime that 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:47.000 they did commit. He attracts understandable suspicion, and from what 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.520 we can tell based on records at the time, he 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.200 was encouraged by the then police chief to leave the 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.600 community because of all of the suspicion growing around him 0:16:56.600 --> 0:17:00.360 and how it did look even back then that he 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.760 was a good, strong suspect for the death of Judy Whitley. 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.479 So he leaves the community. 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.320 And we have so much evidence now that this Dunlap 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:12.720 character he almost certainly killed miss Whitley, but also most 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.800 likely was the murder in this case. He of course 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:17.280 took his own life right and. 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:21.919 After Dennis Dunlap commits suicide on the front page of 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.440 the Clifton Record, the Clifton Police Department in nineteen ninety 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:30.560 nine announces that they've solved the Judy Whitley case and 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.560 that Dennis Dunlap was responsible. But Joe doesn't get access 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:39.199 to that information beyond what's publicly reported until twenty twelve. 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:45.080 It's not until late twenty fourteen twenty fifteen that we 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.960 won going through old files discover that while he did 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.080 leave the department, he did not leave the area. He 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:57.199 was reported to be in the Waco Clifton area the 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:02.200 day that Nicky was murdered. Law enforcement knew it, and 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.880 in nineteen ninety six, his ex wife gives an interview 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.960 to the Texas Rangers as well as the then Clifton 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:14.040 Police chief, and Dennis's ex wife says that Dennis did 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.440 admit to her that he was with Mickey the night 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:18.320 she was killed. 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.439 Of course, when Mickey got killed, everybody was shocked. She 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:30.440 was very she was very popular. I had grown up there, 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.920 highly respected. People wanted an answer. They wanted to know 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:36.920 who killed Judy Whitley, and they wanted to know who 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.480 killed Nicky. And the police, under a great deal of pressure, 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:43.399 I think, jumped on the first wagon they could jump on. 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.160 They got what they wanted, that solved the case, so 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:52.359 the pressure was off. Dennis destroyed Mickey's life and they 0:18:52.480 --> 0:19:05.080 destroyed my life. 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.560 This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss Rifkin, Porton and Garrison, 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.240 a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:17.560 an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.080 to the most vulnerable members of our society and in 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.919 support of the public interest, including extensive work in the 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:34.200 criminal justice area. I mean, we could spend this entire 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:38.880 podcast talking about all the different pieces of exculpatory evidence. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.280 There was a cigarette but found in the house. Neither 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:43.800 Jone nor making smoked. Right. 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:45.320 There was the fact that he was one hundred and 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.560 twenty miles away. We've talked about that already. 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.000 They can't get me there. We proved the model Joe 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.560 mar Carr reproved ro about gasoline. 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:52.880 Right. 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.159 There was the fact that the flashlight wasn't found at 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:58.320 the crime scene. It was found in the trunk of 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.160 the car that wasn't in Joe's possession for several days. 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:02.840 In fact, there was in the possession of somebody who 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:04.840 we know light on the stand, the fact that there 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:09.320 was another likely or even obvious suspect, and they pushed 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:11.240 it under the rugged. There was the absence of any 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:15.600 blood anywhere on Joe, around Joe in his car, you know, 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:20.560 so supposedly this flashlight somehow was the only blood. So 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:22.240 they wanted us to believe that he was holding the 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.520 flashlight in one hand while shooting the gun with the 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:25.240 other hand. 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.400 In his own home, in his own right, because. 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.040 He didn't know the way around his own little home. 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:30.560 Right. Yeah, it wasn't like he lived in. 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.040 So of all the things, right, you need a flashlight 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:33.960 in your own home. 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.000 Right, But then he would have cleaned up every single 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.600 trace of blood from everything, right, And then somehow or 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.560 other spaced out and thrown this flashlight that had this 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:45.600 tiny microscop And then we get to the blood spatter, 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.159 right of all the junk sciences, and you know, we 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.080 have a whole show devoted to junk science. 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:54.800 You know. Blood spatter is a quote unquote. 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.960 Scientific protocol which is used in courtrooms all over this 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:00.560 country and as far back as Joe's trial eighty five, 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:05.479 probably more than that. It is a nonsensical practice in 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:10.040 which these charlatans posing as scientists pretend to be able 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.760 to know by examining blood, as in Joe's case, where 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.359 they just examined an empty room with blood all over it, 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.040 and we're magically able to tell you what happened in there. 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:24.520 You might as well just bring in a psychic. 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:24.879 While you're at it. 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.600 But this practice is taught in a forty hour course 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.080 that I don't know if anyone's ever failed. You just 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.399 pay the money, you go take your forty hour course. 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.000 If you fail, they give you your certificate anyway. In fact, 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:38.399 so it doesn't matter if you fail, and then you 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.760 can go testify in court as a supposed expert. And 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:48.119 so talk to us, Jesse, please about blood spatter and 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.160 how it played a role in Joe's case. 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:56.720 Specifically, bloodstain pattern analysis is the scientific study of the 0:21:56.760 --> 0:22:02.199 static consequences resulting from dynamic blood shedding events, and it 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:09.520 involves detecting and describing and analyzing the size, shape, distribution, number, location, 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:13.399 and pattern of bloodstains, as well as the nature of 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:17.679 their target surfaces and the relationship among various stains at 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:21.000 a particular scene. So as I understand it, and this 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:25.119 is really mostly from preparing for the evidentiary hearing in 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:29.840 Joe's case, is that bloodstain pattern analysis is based in 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:35.640 accepted and proven sciences. The problem with it is what 0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:40.119 you said, which is the training of practitioners and using 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:45.760 it properly within its correct limits. And that's what happened 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:52.679 here with Detective Thorman, a purported practitioner whose training was 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:57.120 a single forty hour course, and the practitioner admitted that 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:02.240 this was the first major complex scene he had analyzed 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:09.399 as a supposedly certified practitioner who between our evidentiary hearing 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:18.000 did eventually recant and admit that his methodologies and application 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:23.000 were mostly incorrect and admitted that then a lot of 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:27.800 his conclusions in testimony was incorrect. And so, like we 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:30.159 talked about at the beginning, what was the state's theory 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:33.280 and why is bloodstain pattern analysis? Why was it important 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:37.280 to the state securing a conviction twice against Joe? And 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:42.040 it was used to explain why there was no physical evidence, 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:44.760 like you said, what was connecting him. The flashlight was 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:48.119 discovered in complete isolation, with no context away from the 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:51.240