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Speaker 1: Beloved couple Joe and Mickey Bryan, who had no children

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Speaker 1: of their own, instead dedicated their lives to educating the

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Speaker 1: children of Clifton, Texas. But while Joe attended an annual

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Speaker 1: high school principal conference one hundred and twenty miles away

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Speaker 1: in Austin, tragedy struck on October fifteenth, nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 1: After Mickey did not arrive at her fourth grade classroom

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Speaker 1: and could not be reached, her principal went to the

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Speaker 1: Brian home with Mickey's parents and found a gruesome crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Gunshots had spattered the walls, ceiling, and betting with Mickey's blood,

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Speaker 1: and friends drove a distraught Joe Briant home from Austin.

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Speaker 1: There were no witnesses, a missing gun and jewelry, a cigarette,

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Speaker 1: but in a non smoking home, it looked like a

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Speaker 1: burglary gone bat until Mickey's brother Charlie borrowed Joe's car

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Speaker 1: while home for the funeral and allegedly found a flashlight

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Speaker 1: in the trunk that tested positive for a few specks

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Speaker 1: of the most common blood type TYPEO, same as Mickey's.

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Speaker 1: The sheer absurdity of Joe racing from Austin to Clifton

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Speaker 1: and back unseen, free of physical evidence, and without a motive.

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Speaker 1: Was overcome by this one object that was found outside

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Speaker 1: of the crime scene, in a car that was not

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Speaker 1: in Joe's possession. Despite DNA testing, it cast doubt on

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Speaker 1: the flashlights connection to the crime scene, and evidence that

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Speaker 1: pointed squarely at a murderous police officer who later took

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Speaker 1: his own life. Joe Brian had to wait thirty five

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Speaker 1: long years for parole to finally set him free. This

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Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to wrongful

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Speaker 1: conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me, of course, I'm your host.

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Speaker 1: And two and a half years ago I read a

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Speaker 1: profoundly troubling series of articles in The New York Times,

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Speaker 1: originally published in pro public of my Pam Collof, about

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Speaker 1: the astounding case of Joe Bran, who served thirty five

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Speaker 1: years in prison in Texas for a crime there is

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Speaker 1: a zero percent possibility that he ever could have committed.

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Speaker 1: And you'll find out why as we go along. And

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Speaker 1: it has haunted me ever since that day, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm just deeply honored to have the man himself, Joe

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Speaker 1: Brian all seventy nine years of age of him with

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Speaker 1: us today on the show.

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Speaker 2: So, Joe, you missed it a year? Oh did I

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Speaker 2: miss a year? I'm oh, happy birthday. He's eighty years old.

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Speaker 2: The congratulations.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm sorry you're here because of why you're here,

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Speaker 1: but I'm very very happy and honored that you're here

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Speaker 1: and with Joe is a renowned attorney Jesse Freud, thank

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Speaker 1: you also for being here today on Raefel.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for including me. Appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: And I think this story is important for so many

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Speaker 1: reasons because if anyone in the audist is thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: that could never happen to me, If it could happen

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Speaker 1: to Joe, it could happen to you. And what I

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Speaker 1: mean by that is, Joe, you led not just an

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Speaker 1: exemplary life, but really a rich fulfilling life up until

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Speaker 1: this happened. And can you take us back all the

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Speaker 1: way to your childhood and how you grew up in a

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Speaker 1: small town in Texas, right.

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Speaker 4: Grew up in Waco, grew up on a farm, ran

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Speaker 4: animals and family, and headed absolutely wonderful childhood, tended church

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Speaker 4: regularly and looking back, I had a very idyllic.

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Speaker 1: Life, And how did you find your way into the

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Speaker 1: field of education at which you excelled right becoming ultimately

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Speaker 1: a really loved and revered educator in Clifton, Texas, the

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Speaker 1: principal of the school. But how did you make your

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Speaker 1: decision to get into education.

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Speaker 4: I always liked school, but at our church I started

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Speaker 4: playing the piano full time when I was thirteen, And

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Speaker 4: our church and our song leader was my principal at school,

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Speaker 4: and I had tremendous respect for him, and I guess

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Speaker 4: you could say that he is instrumental in guiding me

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Speaker 4: in that direction. So I've always lived and breathed and

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Speaker 4: thought education. Mickey and I were unfortunate enough not to

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Speaker 4: be able to have children. We both lived in breathed education.

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Speaker 4: I helped her with our listening plans, with grading papers.

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Speaker 4: We would discuss teaching objectives and gos and how to

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Speaker 4: reach them. Then it was great.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like it was. And from what I understand,

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Speaker 1: the high school, middle and elementary schools were all on

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Speaker 1: the same campus, and you were the high school principal

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Speaker 1: and Mickey was the fourth grade teacher, and the two

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Speaker 1: of you were obviously well known in the small town

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Speaker 1: of Clifton, having had a hand to the education of

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Speaker 1: so many of the people there. So your shared dedication

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Speaker 1: had made you to revered by parents and students alike,

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Speaker 1: which brings me back to my point that if a

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Speaker 1: beloved figure like yourself, who was leading an upstanding, fulfilling life,

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Speaker 1: if this could happen to you, then nobody out there

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Speaker 1: is safe because it could happen to anyone. And that

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Speaker 1: brings me to the next part of your story, which

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Speaker 1: of course is October fourteenth, nineteen eighty five. Now you

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Speaker 1: were out of town at an annual Texas Secondary School's

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Speaker 1: Principals conference one hundred and twenty miles away in Austin, Texas,

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Speaker 1: and this is a conference you who had attended for

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Speaker 1: the previous fourteen years. Mickey had seen her parents Otis

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Speaker 1: and Fira Blue that afternoon, as well as spoken to

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Speaker 1: you as you graded papers and watched the cmas in

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Speaker 1: your hotel room. The Country Music wards in Austin around

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Speaker 1: nine pm that night. So now the following day, October fifteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, Mickey, who was usually the first one

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Speaker 1: to arrive at school, never did. The elementary school principal,

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Speaker 1: Rex Daniels, was obviously concerned so he called your home

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Speaker 1: and got no answer, So, knowing that you were in Austin,

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Speaker 1: he called Mickey's parents, Otis and Verra, who met him

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Speaker 1: at your home with the spare Key and her mother.

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Speaker 1: And this gives me the chills. Was the first to

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Speaker 1: see the horrific and bloody crime scene in your bedroom,

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Speaker 1: her daughter's body, Mickey's body laid across the length of

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Speaker 1: the bed. Her nightgown was drawn up to her thighs,

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Speaker 1: she was undressed from the waist down, and blood was

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Speaker 1: spattered on the bed, the ceiling, and all four walls

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Speaker 1: from apparent gunshots to the head and abdomen. And at

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Speaker 1: this point Rex led the Blues ODIs Everra to the

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Speaker 1: living room where they called the police. And then, of

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Speaker 1: course Joe, you received that awful, awful news.

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Speaker 3: So Joe is alerted to the discovery of her body

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Speaker 3: and to what happened to her. While he is in Austin,

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Speaker 3: several friends from Clifton drive down to get him because

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Speaker 3: of the distraught state he was in, and drive him

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Speaker 3: back to Clifton.

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Speaker 1: So the Texas Rangers led this investigation, as they often

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Speaker 1: did in rural towns like Clifton and Texas ranger Joe

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Speaker 1: Wiley interviewed you, Joe, and you answered all the questions,

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Speaker 1: telling them about the three fifty seven loaded with birdshot

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Speaker 1: that you kept in the bedroom, as well as a

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Speaker 1: cash box under the bed that usually held around one

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: Both of them were.

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Speaker 1: Reported missing at the time, as were Mickey's watch, wedding band,

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Speaker 1: and diamond ring. There were no witnesses, no neighbors reported

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Speaker 1: hearing anything, no obvious signs of forced entry, no bloody fingerprints,

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Speaker 1: no seamen found in the rake kit so there was

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Speaker 1: very little for the rangers to go on. Oddly, a cigarette, though,

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Speaker 1: was found on the kitchen floor. Now this is important

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Speaker 1: because Mickey didn't smoke, and neither did you, Joe. It

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Speaker 1: looked like a burglary gone bed. Now, Mickey's brother, Charlie Blue,

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Speaker 1: was the vice president of an agrochemical firm out of Florida.

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Speaker 1: He came to town with the investigator that the company

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Speaker 1: kept on retainer, an ex FBI agent named Bud Saunders. Now,

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Speaker 1: while Charlie was in town for Mickey's funeral, Joe lent

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Speaker 1: Charlie his car and somewhere along the few days in

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Speaker 1: which the car was in Charlie's possession. A flashlight with

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Speaker 1: reddish brown specs was allegedly spontaneously found in the trunk

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Speaker 1: of the.

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Speaker 3: Car, and so Joe's car is out of his possession

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Speaker 3: for a period of about five days, and then the

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Speaker 3: flashlight is discovered when the car is in Joe's brother

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Speaker 3: in law's possession. So the tipping point for and really

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Speaker 3: the only point that supported Joe's arrest, was the discovery

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Speaker 3: of the flashlight in his.

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Speaker 1: Car, and later DNA testing cast out on whether this

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Speaker 1: flashlight was ever even at the crime scene at all.

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Speaker 1: But nevertheless, unbeknownst to Joe at the time, a search

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Speaker 1: warrant of the car was executed and the flashlight was

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Speaker 1: sent to the state crime lab. Now this was nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five, so there was no DNA testing, just soroology,

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Speaker 1: and the testing done at the time determined that some

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Speaker 1: of us back actually were blood the most common blood type, oh,

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Speaker 1: which also happened to be Mickey's blood type. Now, those

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Speaker 1: speckles were found on an object that was not found

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Speaker 1: at the crime scene, but in one of the couple's

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Speaker 1: two cars, which was curiously not in Joe's possession. When

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Speaker 1: the flashlight was allegedly found bind you if Joe had

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Speaker 1: committed this crime, would he be using a flashlight to

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Speaker 1: find his way around his own home to sneak up

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Speaker 1: on his own wife. I mean, the state's theory is

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Speaker 1: absolutely ridiculous, and this is just one of the many

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Speaker 1: reasons why. So the car was not impounded, but rather

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Speaker 1: released to Charlie Blue, who left it in Joe's driveway.

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Speaker 1: So Joe has no idea that his car has been searched.

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Speaker 1: And this flashlight is the crux of the state's case,

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Speaker 1: supported by a few other pieces of extremely dubious evidence.

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Speaker 3: So their case really rested on four facts. The first

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Speaker 3: and most important was the discovery of the flashlight. The

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Speaker 3: second was a pair of what they said were semen

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Speaker 3: stained underwear discovered in Mickey and Joe's bathroom that at

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Speaker 3: the time in the eighties, they had said tested presumptively

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Speaker 3: positive for the presence of semen, and that was Joe's

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Speaker 3: blood type.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, it's his house, so to find what

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Speaker 1: maybe Joe's bodily fluids in his own home doesn't really

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Speaker 1: implicate him. I mean, it would incriminate an intruder, but

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Speaker 1: it's his freaking house.

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Speaker 3: Anyway continue, so it got flashlight underwear, a explanation that

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Speaker 3: Joe had given regarding opportunities for when the keys to

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Speaker 3: his vehicle were out of his possession. And then the

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Speaker 3: final point was the discovery of money in the trunk

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Speaker 3: of his car following its return to him from his

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Speaker 3: brother in law.

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Speaker 1: So the money that was initially reported missing from the

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Speaker 1: cash box under the bed didn't turn up when the

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Speaker 1: search of the car was conducted either, but rather Joe

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Speaker 1: reported finding the cash after the fact. It was eight

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars of the usual one thousand, and

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Speaker 1: Joe reported this to the authorities, remembering that he and

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Speaker 1: Mickey had taken the money to go shopping in Waco,

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Speaker 1: and somehow they were like, wait, maybe he's hiding something,

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Speaker 1: And so they try to use this to show motive

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Speaker 1: that Joe wanted to either steal from his wife right

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Speaker 1: or that he initially hid the cash to make it

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Speaker 1: seem like.

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Speaker 2: There was a robbery.

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Speaker 1: But neither of those theories holds any water whatsoever. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he'd either be robbing himself because they're married, or if

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Speaker 1: he wanted the crime scene to look like a robbery,

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Speaker 1: why in the world would he then tell the authorities

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Speaker 1: about discovering the money. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: He would have just kept it to himself.

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Speaker 3: And so the state's theory of the case was that

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Speaker 3: Joe had slipped out of his Austin hotel, driven home,

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Speaker 3: let himself into his house with his key, shot mickey

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Speaker 3: with the gun that they had kept by their bed,

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Speaker 3: cleaned himself up after getting her blood all over him,

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Speaker 3: changed clothes and shoes, and drove back to his hotel

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Speaker 3: room in Austin, cleaned up again, and made it to

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Speaker 3: his morning teachers conference meeting. So that's the state's theory, right.

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Speaker 1: And this is a fantastical theory on so many levels.

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Speaker 1: No one saw him do any of these things, right.

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Speaker 1: No one saw him leave the hotel, no one saw

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Speaker 1: him stop for gas, and it was pouring rain that night,

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Speaker 1: and no one saw him soaking wet coming or going.

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Speaker 1: And Joe had a condition, right, immacula condition which meant

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Speaker 1: that he couldn't drive at night anyway, you couldn't see

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Speaker 1: to drive at night. And there was no physical evidence

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Speaker 1: that any of the things that the police said happened

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Speaker 1: actually happened. It's nonsensical and it wasn't just the fact

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Speaker 1: that he was one hundred and twenty miles away and

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Speaker 1: couldn't have realistically gone there and back without being seen

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Speaker 1: unless he was some sort of ghost, but also the

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Speaker 1: idea that he would have had to magically been able

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Speaker 1: to make all this blood disappear from his body, and

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Speaker 1: none of Mickey's blood got into the car either, that

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Speaker 1: he allegedly drove back to Austin that night except for

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Speaker 1: the phantom flashlight that if were to believe the state's theory,

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Speaker 1: he just totally fucked up and absentmindedly left it in

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Speaker 1: the trunk while he meticulously managed to scrub everything else

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Speaker 1: like some master crime scene manipulator, right, and then not

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Speaker 1: to mention he had no motive. In fact, the opposite

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Speaker 1: is true. They loved each other very much and everybody

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Speaker 1: knew it. It wasn't a troubled marriage as we sometimes see.

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Speaker 3: And just to the point of motive really quick. The

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Speaker 3: first trial was at actually reversed for an improper insinuation

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Speaker 3: that there was any financial motive for Joe to kill Mickey,

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Speaker 3: and his defense attorneys tried to respond to that inaccuracy,

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Speaker 3: they were denied by the trial court the right to

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Speaker 3: do so, and that's actually the reason why Joe's case

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Speaker 3: was reversed the first time and why he was retribed

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Speaker 3: so correct. There was never a motive established, and by

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Speaker 3: the second trial, the state concedes that and talks to

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Speaker 3: the jury panel about can you convict if we can't

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Speaker 3: tell you what the motive is. So they were absolutely

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Speaker 3: clear by the time the second trial rolls around that

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Speaker 3: there was no motive because this didn't happen.

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Speaker 1: Right, And you know, it gets worse when you start

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Speaker 1: to see the way that they smeared his character, and

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Speaker 1: of course it's a very contemporaneous story when we come

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Speaker 1: to find out later that, in fact, the logical suspect

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Speaker 1: and somebody who they knew to be the logical suspect

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Speaker 1: at the time was in fact one of their.

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Speaker 2: Own It was a police officer.

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Speaker 1: Because we cannot leave out at this this is the

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Speaker 1: small town of Clifton, Texas, and this was the second

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Speaker 1: murder and unsolved for the time being, in a very

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Speaker 1: short period of time.

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Speaker 2: And of course we.

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Speaker 1: Know how that works, right, That creates the pressure. And

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Speaker 1: so Joe, do you mind telling us about that murder

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Speaker 1: and how that played a role in your wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 4: Judy Whitley, a high school student, was murdered. They didn't

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Speaker 4: know who did it. There were suspicions, but no facts.

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Speaker 4: People are alarmed that this could happen in our community

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Speaker 4: to a high school child. So the police department, so

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Speaker 4: to speak, is put under a lot of pressure to

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Speaker 4: find whoever killed Judy Whitley. Well, my opinion, based on

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Speaker 4: what I know now is that Dennis Dunlap did it.

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Speaker 1: Jesse, this Dennis Dunlop character is a very troubling and

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Speaker 1: profound example of how the sort of blue wall protects itself.

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Speaker 2: So tell us about.

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Speaker 1: That Dunlap and what his role was in these two cases.

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Speaker 3: So, Dennis Dunlap was a member of the Clifton Police

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Speaker 3: Department in nineteen eighty five, and he was originally a

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Speaker 3: suspect in the Judy Whitley case, and that was because

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Speaker 3: he had a connection to Judy's family and suspicious items

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Speaker 3: found in his possession after he eventually leaves the police

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Speaker 3: department in the direction of the then Clifton Police chief.

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Speaker 3: And this was a situation where he tried to be

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Speaker 3: very involved from the get go. I don't think that's

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Speaker 3: very uncommon for actual perpetrators to try and find out

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Speaker 3: as much information as they can about the crime that

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Speaker 3: they did commit. He attracts understandable suspicion, and from what

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Speaker 3: we can tell based on records at the time, he

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Speaker 3: was encouraged by the then police chief to leave the

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Speaker 3: community because of all of the suspicion growing around him

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Speaker 3: and how it did look even back then that he

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Speaker 3: was a good, strong suspect for the death of Judy Whitley.

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Speaker 3: So he leaves the community.

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Speaker 1: And we have so much evidence now that this Dunlap

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Speaker 1: character he almost certainly killed miss Whitley, but also most

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Speaker 1: likely was the murder in this case. He of course

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Speaker 1: took his own life right and.

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Speaker 3: After Dennis Dunlap commits suicide on the front page of

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Speaker 3: the Clifton Record, the Clifton Police Department in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 3: nine announces that they've solved the Judy Whitley case and

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Speaker 3: that Dennis Dunlap was responsible. But Joe doesn't get access

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Speaker 3: to that information beyond what's publicly reported until twenty twelve.

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Speaker 3: It's not until late twenty fourteen twenty fifteen that we

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Speaker 3: won going through old files discover that while he did

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Speaker 3: leave the department, he did not leave the area. He

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Speaker 3: was reported to be in the Waco Clifton area the

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Speaker 3: day that Nicky was murdered. Law enforcement knew it, and

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Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety six, his ex wife gives an interview

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Speaker 3: to the Texas Rangers as well as the then Clifton

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Speaker 3: Police chief, and Dennis's ex wife says that Dennis did

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Speaker 3: admit to her that he was with Mickey the night

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Speaker 3: she was killed.

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Speaker 4: Of course, when Mickey got killed, everybody was shocked. She

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Speaker 4: was very she was very popular. I had grown up there,

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Speaker 4: highly respected. People wanted an answer. They wanted to know

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Speaker 4: who killed Judy Whitley, and they wanted to know who

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Speaker 4: killed Nicky. And the police, under a great deal of pressure,

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Speaker 4: I think, jumped on the first wagon they could jump on.

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Speaker 4: They got what they wanted, that solved the case, so

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Speaker 4: the pressure was off. Dennis destroyed Mickey's life and they

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Speaker 4: destroyed my life.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss Rifkin, Porton and Garrison,

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Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had

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Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance

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Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable members of our society and in

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Speaker 1: support of the public interest, including extensive work in the

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Speaker 1: criminal justice area. I mean, we could spend this entire

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Speaker 1: podcast talking about all the different pieces of exculpatory evidence.

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Speaker 2: There was a cigarette but found in the house. Neither

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Speaker 2: Jone nor making smoked. Right.

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Speaker 1: There was the fact that he was one hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty miles away. We've talked about that already.

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Speaker 4: They can't get me there. We proved the model Joe

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Speaker 4: mar Carr reproved ro about gasoline.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: There was the fact that the flashlight wasn't found at

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Speaker 1: the crime scene. It was found in the trunk of

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Speaker 1: the car that wasn't in Joe's possession for several days.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there was in the possession of somebody who

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Speaker 1: we know light on the stand, the fact that there

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Speaker 1: was another likely or even obvious suspect, and they pushed

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Speaker 1: it under the rugged. There was the absence of any

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Speaker 1: blood anywhere on Joe, around Joe in his car, you know,

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Speaker 1: so supposedly this flashlight somehow was the only blood. So

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Speaker 1: they wanted us to believe that he was holding the

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Speaker 1: flashlight in one hand while shooting the gun with the

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Speaker 1: other hand.

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Speaker 3: In his own home, in his own right, because.

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Speaker 1: He didn't know the way around his own little home.

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Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, it wasn't like he lived in.

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Speaker 3: So of all the things, right, you need a flashlight

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Speaker 3: in your own home.

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Speaker 1: Right, But then he would have cleaned up every single

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Speaker 1: trace of blood from everything, right, And then somehow or

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Speaker 1: other spaced out and thrown this flashlight that had this

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Speaker 1: tiny microscop And then we get to the blood spatter,

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Speaker 1: right of all the junk sciences, and you know, we

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Speaker 1: have a whole show devoted to junk science.

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Speaker 2: You know. Blood spatter is a quote unquote.

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Speaker 1: Scientific protocol which is used in courtrooms all over this

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Speaker 1: country and as far back as Joe's trial eighty five,

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Speaker 1: probably more than that. It is a nonsensical practice in

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Speaker 1: which these charlatans posing as scientists pretend to be able

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Speaker 1: to know by examining blood, as in Joe's case, where

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Speaker 1: they just examined an empty room with blood all over it,

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Speaker 1: and we're magically able to tell you what happened in there.

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Speaker 1: You might as well just bring in a psychic.

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Speaker 2: While you're at it.

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Speaker 1: But this practice is taught in a forty hour course

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Speaker 1: that I don't know if anyone's ever failed. You just

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Speaker 1: pay the money, you go take your forty hour course.

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Speaker 1: If you fail, they give you your certificate anyway. In fact,

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't matter if you fail, and then you

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Speaker 1: can go testify in court as a supposed expert. And

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Speaker 1: so talk to us, Jesse, please about blood spatter and

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Speaker 1: how it played a role in Joe's case.

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Speaker 3: Specifically, bloodstain pattern analysis is the scientific study of the

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Speaker 3: static consequences resulting from dynamic blood shedding events, and it

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Speaker 3: involves detecting and describing and analyzing the size, shape, distribution, number, location,

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Speaker 3: and pattern of bloodstains, as well as the nature of

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Speaker 3: their target surfaces and the relationship among various stains at

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Speaker 3: a particular scene. So as I understand it, and this

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Speaker 3: is really mostly from preparing for the evidentiary hearing in

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Speaker 3: Joe's case, is that bloodstain pattern analysis is based in

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Speaker 3: accepted and proven sciences. The problem with it is what

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Speaker 3: you said, which is the training of practitioners and using

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Speaker 3: it properly within its correct limits. And that's what happened

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Speaker 3: here with Detective Thorman, a purported practitioner whose training was

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Speaker 3: a single forty hour course, and the practitioner admitted that

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Speaker 3: this was the first major complex scene he had analyzed

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Speaker 3: as a supposedly certified practitioner who between our evidentiary hearing

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Speaker 3: did eventually recant and admit that his methodologies and application

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Speaker 3: were mostly incorrect and admitted that then a lot of

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Speaker 3: his conclusions in testimony was incorrect. And so, like we

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Speaker 3: talked about at the beginning, what was the state's theory

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Speaker 3: and why is bloodstain pattern analysis? Why was it important

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Speaker 3: to the state securing a conviction twice against Joe? And

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Speaker 3: it was used to explain why there was no physical evidence,

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Speaker 3: like you said, what was connecting him. The flashlight was

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Speaker 3: discovered in complete isolation, with no context away from the

401
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Speaker 3: crime scene. His car was clean. There's never anything on

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Speaker 3: him physically discovered, not in his hotel room, not on

403
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Speaker 3: his person later And so the bloodstain pattern analysis proffered

404
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Speaker 3: Detective Foreman was used to fill the very clear gaps

405
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Speaker 3: in the state's case and to make an impossible theory

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Speaker 3: of the case seem plausible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just want to quote from Pam Koloff's

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Speaker 1: a wonderful article where she actually went to her great

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Speaker 1: credit to Yukon, Oklahoma, where she participated in one of

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Speaker 1: these classes that she paid six hundred and something dollars

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Speaker 1: for and she talks about I'm just going to quote now,

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Speaker 1: armed with calipers, scientific calculators and string, we measured bloodstains,

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Speaker 1: plugged our data into equations, and tried to trace the

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Speaker 1: trajectories of individual droplets back towards their source. As was

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Speaker 1: true with pattern classification, there were many ways to get

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Speaker 1: this wrong. Small deviations with the calipers resulted in markedly

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Speaker 1: different results. Still, Griffin, who was the instructor, had us

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Speaker 1: press forward. He said, quote, We're not really going to

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Speaker 1: focus on the math and physics. It just kind of

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Speaker 1: bogs things down. Uh, that's me editorialzing.

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Speaker 2: What okay? He told us.

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Speaker 1: She goes on to say at the outset, quote, I'll

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Speaker 1: teach you which keys under your calculator to press. It's unbelievable,

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Speaker 1: And then back to PAMs. It was upon this shaky

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Speaker 1: foundation that Dorman had tried to reverse engineer the shooting

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Speaker 1: at the Brian home.

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Speaker 2: Looking over his nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 1: Five report one night back at my hotel, I could

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Speaker 1: see where his analysis went awry. According to his report,

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Speaker 1: he believed he was determining the alleged height from which

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Speaker 1: the shots were fired, a conclusion his data could not yield.

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Speaker 1: I began to wonder if his assessment of the flashlight, too,

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Speaker 1: was faulty when he asserted that the blood on the

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Speaker 1: lens was backspatter from a close range shooting. Now it

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Speaker 1: goes on, because they teach you in this class as

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Speaker 1: well how to present testimony as if you're an expert.

437
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: Its basically teach you how to act in court, to

438
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: pretend better that you actually know what you're talking about,

439
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: and to be more persuasive, and how to be able

440
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: to dodge questions from you know, quality defense attorney. I mean,

441
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: let's face it, not too many of these blood spatter

442
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: people come in and testify for the defense. So they're

443
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 1: teaching you, in essence, how to frame people. And that's

444
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: exactly what they did in Joe's case, and it makes

445
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: me sick.

446
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 3: It's, I think, a perfect example of a situation where

447
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: juris trust the prosecutors in their community and they trust

448
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 3: law enforcement, and Joe's case, sadly isn't the only example

449
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 3: of this. When prosecutors go to juris and paint a

450
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 3: picture using, like Joe said, fabricated evidence and an impossible

451
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 3: narrative and show them awful photos of a crime that

452
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 3: clearly did happen and ask them to say, okay, either

453
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 3: don't hold somebody responsible or hold somebody responsible. Right, and

454
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 3: especially in the context of what this community had just

455
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 3: gone through, like you just said, with the loss of

456
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 3: Judy Whitley just a few months prior, and then the

457
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 3: loss of Mickey and her brother in particular, paid a

458
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 3: special prosecutor to prosecute Joe. And so you've got somebody

459
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 3: who's got a financial incentive to get a conviction, and

460
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 3: you have a jury who's being told about that financial arrangement, right,

461
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 3: that knows this is what the victim's family paid for.

462
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 3: This is clearly what they believed what jury was going

463
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 3: to let him walk out of a courtroom. There just

464
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 3: wasn't in any jurisdiction in nineteen eighty five, eighty six,

465
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 3: and eighty nine that just sadly wasn't going to happen.

466
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: So with this nonsensical blood spatter analysis and this flashlight

467
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: that wasn't even found at the crime scene as the

468
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: big smoking gun, and then the assassinations on his character,

469
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: it was a almost a foregone conclusion. So can you

470
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: take us back to that moment when the judge read

471
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: the verdict.

472
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 4: Well, it's very unreal. You already know your life has

473
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 4: changed forever because of everything that's already happened. But then

474
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 4: now people are going to look at you like you

475
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 4: and I'm going to end up in prison. There's something

476
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 4: I didn't do, and I'm gonna have to fight every

477
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 4: day to maintain my personal integrity. You think, how can

478
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 4: people do this? But what is really troubling is that

479
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 4: you know that people know that what they've done is

480
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 4: not right, and they don't have any trouble doing what's wrong.

481
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 4: Everything that happened really hurts. I just don't go there

482
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 4: very often. But God has a purpose for each of us.

483
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 4: And when I first went to prison, I was very

484
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 4: angry with God and did not go to church and

485
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 4: didn't tell anybody I was a Christian or even played

486
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 4: the piano. And after I'd been there, probably eight weeks,

487
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 4: the chaplain told me that I understand that you play

488
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 4: the piano and that you're a Christian. And I said,

489
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 4: how do you know I haven't told anybody. Well, he

490
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 4: wanted to hear me play the piano, so we went

491
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 4: into the chapel and I said, what do you want

492
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 4: to hear, and he told me, and I played the

493
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 4: songs when we went back to the chapel and he

494
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 4: asked if I would play the piano for the chapel

495
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 4: services and I said, no, I will not, And I

496
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 4: told him I was mad at God, and I said,

497
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 4: but how did you know that I was a Christian,

498
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 4: that I played the piano? And he comes out with

499
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 4: a letter from my high school principal when I grew up,

500
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 4: who led the singing at the church where I play.

501
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: And he told Chaplain Pickett, I've done Joe since he

502
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 4: was five. I believe he's innocent. I know he's hurt,

503
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 4: and if you can get him to play the piano

504
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 4: for your church services, you'll be blessed and it will

505
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 4: help him. And I told him I'm not playing, and

506
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,719
Speaker 4: that wise Chaplain told me, well, you think about it

507
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 4: tonight and you let me know in the morning. I

508
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 4: got zero sleep that night because God was all over me, saying,

509
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 4: you so to speak, Who do you think gave you

510
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 4: that skill? I did? I want you to use it

511
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 4: for me. So the next morning I called Chaplain Picket

512
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 4: and told him I would play for the chapel services,

513
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 4: and he says, good, we at choir practice today at

514
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 4: two o'clock and I was in and busy for the

515
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 4: rest of my stay. So we can do anything through Christ.

516
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 4: And when I asked God for peace, he gave me peace.

517
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad that you found that, and I'm glad

518
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: you're here today because you are a living testament to

519
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: the human spirits.

520
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, so then here we are.

521
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: You've now been sentenced to ninety nine years in prison. Right,

522
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: I love life sentence because no one's ever lived that long,

523
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: and you know you weren't going to be the first.

524
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: Again to me, the idea that you're still here with

525
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: you know, three brain cells to rub together and be

526
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: able to sit up right and have a laugh and

527
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: have a smile on your face, it's it's inspiring. It's

528
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's what I'll tell you right now. For

529
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: those of us that do this work, it's what drives

530
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: us forward is knowing that there are people like you

531
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: who have this otherworldly uh uh. You know, courage is

532
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: the best way I can and grace.

533
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 3: And perseverance of of course, you know, when I pick

534
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 3: up this case in November of twenty thirteen as a

535
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: law student, it's my whole life, like my whole life.

536
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 3: Joe had been fighting this fight, and it's an unbelievable

537
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 3: set of strength and endurance to maintain your innocence and

538
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 3: keep fighting for that period of time. It's unbelievable. And

539
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: most people give up, right, we know, innocent people plead guilty,

540
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 3: and innocent people end up giving up just to move

541
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 3: on with their lives. And the fact that he hasn't,

542
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: I think just speaks so much to the character that

543
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: everybody in that community knows he has and knew he had,

544
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 3: and just his spirit.

545
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: Which brings us to that long, long fight, the post

546
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: conviction litigation, and all the things that were discovered along

547
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: the way, not to mention what was already known, which

548
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: should have kept them from ever even bringing Joe to trial.

549
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: I mean, the sheer breadth of this, it's insane to

550
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: believe that none of it was enough to spring him

551
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: out of there with the state acknowledging his actual innocence.

552
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: And I'm going to just list some of it now, right, So,

553
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: no one saw Joe leave the hotel in Austin, and

554
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: no one saw him back in Clifton. I mean, it's

555
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty mile journey he would have had

556
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: to stop for gas at some point, right, And then

557
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: the mileage on Joe's car proved that he did not

558
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: make the journey back and forth to Austin. According to

559
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: the state's own admission, he had no motive to kill Mickey,

560
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: so all that nonsense about the cash or stage robbery

561
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: was just nonsense. And then Dennis Dunlap, Okay, the main

562
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: suspect in Judy Whitley's murder who was forced out of

563
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: Clifton PD as a result, and who they laid blame

564
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: for it on after he killed himself, But only after

565
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: he killed himself. His wife told the rangers and the

566
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: Clifton Police chief in nineteen ninety nine that Dunlap admitted

567
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: to being with Mickey on the night she was killed.

568
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: I mean, what the fuck? And he doesn't get to

569
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: learn about that from nineteen ninety nine until twenty and

570
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: twelve when they finally released these documents to him. So

571
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: thirty five long years roll by with no one acknowledging

572
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: his innocence because of this flashlight that wasn't even found

573
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,959
Speaker 1: at the crime scene, but rather was found in the car,

574
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: that wasn't in Joe's possession or control. Rather it was

575
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: in the possession of the man that brought an investigator

576
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: to his own sister's funeral and paid a special prosecutor

577
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: to make sure that they nailed Joe but Jesse. DNA

578
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: testing was finally done on that flashlight in twenty eighteen,

579
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,439
Speaker 1: testing that wasn't available in nineteen eighty five. It hadn't

580
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: been invented yet. What did they find out? Yeah?

581
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 3: So I think the simplest way is the question that

582
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: was asked at the evidentiary hearing, which is, can the

583
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 3: State of Texas prove that Mickey's DNA is on that flashlight?

584
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 3: And the answer to that question by the state's analyst

585
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 3: was no. There's two results from a twenty eighteen set

586
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 3: of DNA testing. One was on the lens of the

587
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 3: flashlight that was an inconclusive result, and then there was

588
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 3: a DNA test of the swab from the handle and

589
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 3: the power button of the flashlight that excluded him and Mickey. So,

590
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 3: does modern testing prove that Mickey's DNA is on that flashlight?

591
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 3: And the answer to that is now.

592
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: So there was Type O blood, the most common blood type,

593
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: on this flashlight, but not necessary from the crime scene.

594
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: That would be our position. The state's position would obviously

595
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 3: be different, but modern testing cannot corroborate the state's position.

596
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: And add that conclusion to the already patently ridiculous theory

597
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: of this crime and what was discovered about Dunlap, and

598
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: it's all just becomes very hard to swallow that it

599
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: took this long for you, Joe, to finally be free,

600
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: but all appeals were exhausted, and then despite an exemplary

601
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: disciplinary record, you're involvement in the chapel, playing piano, tutoring,

602
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: the parole board denied you seven times. Is that right?

603
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah?

604
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 4: Seven times?

605
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, So your patience has tried and tried and tried,

606
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: but finally, Joe, finally you were freed just a short

607
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:46,919
Speaker 1: while ago.

608
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: And what was that like?

609
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 4: I mean, well, there are many tears. You're so thankful

610
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 4: to be out and it's beautiful to see people who

611
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 4: care for you and love youaiting for you out there

612
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 4: when you get outside. Jesse was one of those waiting,

613
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 4: along with my family and other people who were interested

614
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 4: in in my case. A lot of people could not

615
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 4: be there, and it was understandable.

616
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: It was right at the beginning of Corona a couple

617
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 3: of weeks after the world shut down.

618
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely wonderful though to be able to hug your

619
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 4: family and to get into the vehicle and go home.

620
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 4: The young lady that we're watching right now is very instrumental.

621
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: Well, and it's not definitely not only me, Walter.

622
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 4: I know that, I know that Walter and Leon and

623
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 4: Allison and Shay and Allen.

624
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: Joe has wonderful parole lawyers. Yes, again, Joe is not

625
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: free like we just talked about because the courts did

626
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 3: their thing. Joe's free because thankfully he had parole lawyers

627
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: that were able to explain the circumstances to the parole

628
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 3: board in a way that clearly made sense. And so

629
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 3: they are really the heroes.

630
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 4: Thank God, I'm home. My brother and his wife have

631
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 4: provided a home for me, and I am just fabulously

632
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 4: grateful and it's encouraging, very humbling what others have done

633
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 4: to help me.

634
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: I know I speak on behalf of all of your

635
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: supporters when I say that we wish you every blessing

636
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: that life has to offer. I hope you live to

637
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 1: be one hundred and eighty and that you can enjoy

638
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: every moment of it. And we now have the closing

639
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: segment of the show, which I think our audience has

640
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: come to really expect and appreciate. I know it's my

641
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show because this is the part

642
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 1: where again I thank you too amazing human beings, Jesse

643
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: Freud and Joe Brian for being here with me and

644
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: sharing your stories. And then I get to turn my

645
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: microphone off and leave yours on for a segment of

646
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: the show we call closing arguments, and it works like this.

647
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: We're going to start with Jesse. We're going to save

648
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: well due respect, Jesse. We're going to save the best

649
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: for last. The floor is yours, so Jesse, please just

650
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: tell us whatever you got and then pass the mic.

651
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: Off to Joe.

652
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 3: I almost feel so unoriginal because I think I'm going

653
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 3: to end where you started, which is what can listeners

654
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 3: learn from what happened to Joe? And obviously the injustice

655
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 3: also that happened to Mickey, which and that still remains.

656
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 3: The wrong person is still being legally held accountable for

657
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 3: killing Mickey, and so that is a horrible injustice, and

658
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 3: so what can the public learn from that? And I

659
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 3: think the first thing is what you said, which is

660
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 3: if this can happen to Joe Brian. This can happen

661
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: to anyone. And I remember as a law student when

662
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: I became fascinated with this case before I even got

663
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 3: to know Joe. It really struck me that this is

664
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 3: a case that can make people think that the problems

665
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 3: of the criminal justice system, if they think those don't

666
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: apply to them, after learning about what happened to Joe,

667
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 3: they should think that these things apply to them. And

668
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 3: so I hate that the injustice that remains for the

669
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 3: wrong person being held accountable for Mickey's murder, and I

670
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 3: hate that Joe's life was likewise stolen from him. But

671
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 3: I hope what we can all as a society learn

672
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 3: from that, which is cops and prosecutors are people too,

673
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: and when they come before twelve random folks in a

674
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 3: jury and they're asking members of the community to do something,

675
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 3: have the courage to think critically about what you're being

676
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 3: asked to do and truly hold the state to their burden.

677
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 3: I think our community can do what sometimes and sadly

678
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 3: cops and prosecutors don't do, which have the courage to

679
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 3: say this isn't enough, and we're not going to have

680
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 3: two loss of lives, because that's what we've got here.

681
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 3: Mickey's life was taken and Joe's life was taken, and

682
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 3: that is preventable. This was preventable. Our courts had an

683
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 3: opportunity to fix it and refuse to do so. And

684
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 3: so America can learn something from what happened to Joe

685
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 3: and Mickey. It's go be good jurors, hold the state

686
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 3: to their burden, and have the courage to fight injustice

687
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 3: from the jury box.

688
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 2: Joe, over to you, number one.

689
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 4: I still respect law enforcement. I still respect courts and

690
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 4: judges and district attorneys. Well, what I want them to

691
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 4: do is to work for justice, not conviction. If conviction

692
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 4: is a part of that justice, then so be it.

693
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 4: But if you're proven later that your decision was wrong

694
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 4: after a conviction, be man or woman enough or judge

695
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 4: enough or whatever enough of a person say hey, we

696
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 4: mess this up and we need to correct it. Don't

697
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 4: just stick your head in the sand and say that's

698
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: not what I want to hear, and we're not going

699
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 4: to change our opinion. Because even in our discovery hearings,

700
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 4: the judge had them test the flashlight again for the

701
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 4: third or fourth time, and the state's lab came back

702
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 4: with the report was and he said, there's two DNA

703
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 4: profiles on the flashlight. One is not Mickey Brian and

704
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 4: one is not Joe Brian. So whose DNA is on

705
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 4: that flashlight? And that was to me a key point

706
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 4: in evidence they used against me, just like they said

707
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 4: they're seemen on the underwear, and then when they were

708
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 4: DNA tested, there's no seeming there. So who's lying? When

709
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 4: did the last start? Who did it and who backed

710
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 4: up who in protecting that person's decision. Why are we

711
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 4: not looking for the truth. And if you think it

712
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 4: can't happen to you in America, you are wrong. And

713
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 4: it doesn't happen just to black people either. It happens

714
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 4: to white people too, and people like Jesse and Walter

715
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 4: in the Texas Innocence Project, and you, Jason, who worked

716
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 4: with the Innocence people. If it weren't for you, we

717
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 4: would have no hope. I sleep well at night because

718
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 4: I'm innocent and I'm honest. I'm not perfect. But Micky

719
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 4: was my wife, and I loved her, and I cherished her,

720
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 4: I respected her, and I miss her, and I wish

721
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 4: her family we'd be just as concerned about who actually

722
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 4: killed her as we are, and I wish they. You know, hey,

723
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 4: look maybe we were misled, maybe we were used in

724
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 4: that conviction process that somebody else won't it. We can

725
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 4: do anything through Jesus Christ. I'm still living with him

726
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 4: every day, and I'm still relying on him to give

727
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 4: me the strength and the hope, and I still don't

728
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 4: having trouble going to sleep at night.

729
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm.

730
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the

731
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help.

732
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn,

733
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis.

734
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: The music on the.

735
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: Show, as always, is by three time OSCAR nominated composer

736
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at

737
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful

738
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for

739
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one.

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00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 4: The Man, Why the Land in the World,