WEBVTT - Bayer, Abbott Billion-Dollar Mass-Tort Risk 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:19.080 Welcome to the Votes and Verdicts podcast hosted by Bloomberg Intelligence, 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:23.280 the investment research arm of Bloomberg LP. In this podcast series, 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.040 we talk about the intersection of business policy and law. 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.920 My name is Holly from I'm an analyst with Bloomberg 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:34.120 Intelligence covering consumer, industrial and healthcare litigation. Today's podcast will 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:37.279 focus on mass fort litigation presently winding its way through 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:40.520 the courts. I'm delighted to be joined today by Joseph 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:44.320 Fantini of Rosen Injury Lawyers. He is a managing attorney 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:48.199 for Rosen's mass twort department. Mister Fantini is an attorney 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.479 representing plaintiffs in some of the cases we will be 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.160 discussing today. Joe, would you please tell us a little 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:55.040 bit about your background and what you do at Rosen. 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.160 Hi, Holly, thanks so much for having me on here today. 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.640 I'm really excited to talk to you about the mass 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:06.000 towart landscape. It's something I'm really passionate about. But by 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.800 way of background, I've been an attorney here for about 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.280 fifteen years and the majority of my time have been 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.600 involved with mass tourts. I initially started my career clerking 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:21.240 for judge Arnold Knew in Philadelphia Cordacommon Please in the 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:24.760 mass turt department. Then I moved over to Wilson Elser, 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:30.479 which is a global insurance defense firm and defended clients 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.440 and mass twart litigation before switching over to a prominent 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:39.160 Philadelphia firm, annipol Weiss, representing plaintiffs and mass towart and 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.240 class actions. For the last six plus years, I've been 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.640 over at Rosen Injury Lawyers, where I had the mass 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.960 tart department, and we represent individuals that have been hurt 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.160 through no fault of their own by defective products and 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.680 some of the biggest mass twarts out there. 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:59.120 So your perfect person to talk to you today because 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:00.760 we're going to be talked and that some of the 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.279 master work cases winding their way through the court system. 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:04.600 And one of those cases you've been. 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:08.080 Involved with is litigation against Bear's Monsanto unit over we 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.720 Killer round Up. The claims are that we Killer Roundup 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.120 causes cancer. As listeners may remember, there there was a 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:17.840 large settlement for about eleven billion dollars of around one 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.440 hundred thousand cases in twenty twenty, but there are still 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:22.919 about fifty seven thousand claims that have not been settled. 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:25.640 So these cases continued to go to trial, and there 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:27.960 were a number of notable Planet's verdicts. We saw one 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.160 award for a one point five billion out of Missouri 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:31.959 and one for two point twenty five billion out of 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.920 the Philadelphia. Both awards were subsequently reduced. Of course, I 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.040 should say there were a number of defence wines as well, 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.720 but generally, when the jury finds in favor of the planet, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:45.480 the awards are many millions of dollars. So recently, Buyer's 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.360 Monsanto had one notable victory at the appellate level, and 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.800 that was at the Third Circuit Court of Appeals and 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.080 Appellet court ruled that a planet is failure to Warren 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.320 claims were preempted. Two other appellate courts, the Night and 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.160 the eleven Circus, found the opposite that the planet's claims 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.480 were not preempted. Joe, I just wanted to know if 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.880 you could explain what the rulings mean and how the 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.600 Third Circuit Court's rulings could impact the course of this 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:08.399 litigation and potential settlement. 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.200 Yeah, so this was a really important decision that just 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.480 came down here. Like you mentioned, this has been a 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.520 long fought litigation. We had the first verdict back in 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:24.120 twenty eighteen, and then subsequent to that in May of 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:29.760 twenty twenty one, Bare, after this settlement of the eleven 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.440 billion dollars, announced its five point plan to manage the 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.760 round Up litigation, and the main and first point that 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.080 it had was to obtain a positive ruling from the 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:45.880 US Supreme Court on fred federal preemption, which Bear believes 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:50.840 could significantly alter and end this round up litigation. So 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:55.440 basically what happened in this ruling was whether or not 0:03:56.000 --> 0:04:00.520 state law claims based on failure to warm are reempted 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.240 by federal law. And Bear was alleging, since the EPA 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:11.560 approved the roundup label without any risks associated with cancer, 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:17.000 whether or not they needed to warn consumers later about 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:22.120 these cancer risks. And the preemption argument is a regular 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:25.599 defense that we see typically in mass tourch We've seen 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:30.159 it throughout the prescription medication cases where the labeling was 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:34.560 approved by the FDA and then thereafter the manufacturers unable 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.839 to make any changes and that effectively eliminates these failure 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:42.800 to warrant claims. So now with the Third Circuit ruling, 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.640 the issue is whether or not similar to the FDA. 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:51.880 The EPA has taken out these failure to warren state claims. 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:57.560 So basically, from the planner's perspective, Bear spent eight plus 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:01.120 years and eleven billion dollars hoping to get split of 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.480 the circuits, and as you mentioned, their first two attempts 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.920 were unsuccessful. In the ninth and eleventh Circuit ruled in 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.479 Plaine's failure that the claims weren't preempted. But they scored 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.920 this victory with the Third Circuit when it found that 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:20.720 the plaintiff's failure to warn claims were preempted. So as 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.120 a result of that, we saw Bear's stock increase by 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:29.039 ten percent. And this split in authority allows Bear now 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.560 to petition to the Supreme Court to get review on 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.680 clarification on whether or not all of these claims are preempted. 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:41.000 As a reference point, typically the Supreme Court receives between 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:45.359 seven to eight thousand petitions for serve each year and 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:50.560 only about one hundred percent or review. So from our perspective, 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.800 we believe that this Supreme that this Third Circuit ruling 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:58.320 eliminates the possibility of a global settlement. In twenty twenty four, 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:02.080 we anticipate bear trying to get this up to the 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:07.080 Supreme Court, and we don't foresee a larger settlement until 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.320 sometime next year, after this issue is resolved. 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:15.039 We should say that there was that after the Ninth 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.719 Circuit appeal, Buyer did petition the US Supreme Court to 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.160 take the case. The matter was conferenced. I think it 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:26.000 was conferenced twice if I recall correctly, and then ultimately 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.000 the Supreme Court rejected the petition. But this is different 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.760 landscape now because there is this split of authority that 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.560 you mentioned and that you explained another case. I know 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.880 that you've been heavily involved in is Zantac litigation. By 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:45.280 way of background, Consumers who ingested Zantac sued Zantac manufacturers, 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:51.400 Glass of Smith, Client, Bowringer, Pfizer, and other manufacturers, claiming 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.680 an ingredient Zantac degrades into our carcinogen under certain storage conditions. 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:57.920 This has been an interesting case, sort of a roller 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.240 coaster of a case because we've seen very important, very 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:01.480 divergent rulings out. 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:02.760 Of federal and state court. 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:05.760 And one of those rulings occurred in four Q twenty 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:07.960 twenty two, and that was by the Federal trial judge 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.960 handling pre trial proceedings, and so what happened there where 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.160 there were tens of thousands of cases or claims filed 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:13.920 in federal court. 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.280 The cases were coordinated before a court in. 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.960 Florida, the Federal Court in Florida, and that court in 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.040 four Q twenty twenty two decided that planeff experts were 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.240 unreliable and dismissed them, And because plaintiffs couldn't prove their 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.160 claims without an expert, the judge created summary judgment to defendants. 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:30.800 But in May this year, a court in Delaware, where 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.880 over seventy thousand cases were pending, found that plaintiffs experts 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.600 were admissible. So, Joe, could you please explain what the 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.000 courts made ruling allowing Planet off experts to testify means 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:41.880 and why that is significant. 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.560 Yeah, as you mentioned, this was a huge ruling that 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.040 we were waiting on and trying to get for many years. 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:54.360 So basically, as you mentioned, the MDL court excluded all 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:59.400 plane effect experts, effectively ended the federal litigation. A number 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.720 of cases over seventy thousand, are pending in Delaware state 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.440 court and in May this year, the judge denied the 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:11.119 defendant's motions to exclude plainiffs experts. So what that means 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.200 is that the cases were able to proceed to trial. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.200 So the Delaware Court noted that in the pending California 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:22.400 state court actions in Bobbing Xantec, where there's a few 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:28.239 thousand cases, the judicial Council coordinated proceeding allowed the cases 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:33.080 to proceed to general causation phase. The judge also noted 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:37.599 in Delaware that we had different plaintiffs, we had different experts. 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.920 The experts in Delaware considered ten cancers versus five in 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.400 the MDL, and there was also different leadership in the 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.520 Delaware state action versus the MDL. So the plainiffs have 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:54.720 returned retained ten experts to offer general causation opinions on 0:08:54.800 --> 0:09:00.199 these ten different cancers. And in essence, the Delaware Court 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:05.960 noted that the MDL judge's decision it wasn't binding, it 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.800 was only discretionary in nature. And then after the court 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:14.640 did a very thorough analysis of over one hundred page opinion, 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:20.280 it found that the opinions offered by plaintiffs experts were 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.920 reliable and they passed the mustard and were able to 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.520 go forward and be presented to the jury. So This 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:32.120 allowed the litigation continued to the next phase, and right 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.480 now we're working on the Bellweather case workup in the 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:36.600 Delaware state action. 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.599 It was a really important decision, but in July, the 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.440 defendant Manufacturers asked the Delaware Supreme Court to immediately review 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:50.520 that decision. The Supreme Court granted the request August twenty seventh. 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:53.480 Can you tell us why that is or is not significant? 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:59.080 Yeah, that's a very significant development. So initially, on July first, 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:03.960 twenty twenty, the Superior Court of Delaware denied the defendant's 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:09.440 application for certification for an interlocatory appeal, finding that the 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:14.760 expert opinion does not determine a substantial issue of material 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:19.600 importance that merits appellate review before the final judgment. The 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.880 defendants weren't satisfied with that, and they went up to 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.520 the Delaware Supreme Court, and as you mentioned, on August 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:30.880 twenty seventh, the Supreme Court of Delaware granted the defendant's 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:36.760 certification for interlocatory appeal. So now the defendants agreed to 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:41.160 continue with discovery and the underlying cases while this appeal 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.520 is ongoing, and we have a briefing schedule where the 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:48.600 defendant's initial brief is due October first, planning us out 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:54.080 thirty days to spawn. Defendants have fifteen days thereafter to 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.559 file their appeal, and then we're expecting an oral argument 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.000 in the first quarter of twenty twenty five. We should 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:05.520 have a ruling and anywhere from eight to twelve months 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:09.200 from now, and that will determine whether or not plainiffs 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:13.640 experts are able to offer their testimony at trial and 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.160 the cases can proceed. So it's a huge development and 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.880 everybody's going to be watching this decision, which is going 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.920 to be one of the biggest mass tourt decisions in 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:24.840 twenty twenty five and beyond. 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.559 Yeah, that should be a really important decision in Delaware. 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.000 And in light of the courts the Delaware Court's taking 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.440 the case, we're going to review that to how do 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.840 you see this case playing out over the next year. 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.480 Yeah, So in Delaware State Court, we're going to continue 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:46.359 to work up the cases for Bellweather trial. The plainiffs 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:50.760 have certain requirements to offer the proof of usage by 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:55.080 October thirty first, twenty twenty four, and proof of injury 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.600 by the end of January twenty twenty five. The Bellweather 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.400 trials are looking to have a trial in either Q 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.840 two or Q three in twenty twenty five. Meanwhile, while 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:10.440 that's ongoing in Delaware, we have other actions going on 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.360 in Illinois State Court where there's been a couple of 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.720 cases go to verdict. We're expecting at least two more 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.800 trials here before the end of twenty twenty five. And 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:24.360 then in California State Court action. What's been happening there 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.120 is the defendants have settled almost a dozen cases before 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:32.080 they got to trial, So we have those two state 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.520 court actions that are active. And then in Philadelphia, there 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.360 was also a recent development where the plantiffs filed emotion 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:44.760 seeking to recuse Judge Roberts, alleging the appearance of impropriety 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.400 due to his wife working at Reed Smith, which is 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:52.840 a prominent defense firm and also represented as Antik defendant 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:57.680 outside of Philadelphia. The motion for recusal was denied. Planeffs 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:02.680 are seeking appeal of that decision, and that basically bumps 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.880 back the trials in Philadelphia that we're supposed to begin 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.600 in February twenty twenty five until the end of twenty 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.400 twenty five at the earliest. So the litigations moving forward 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:18.120 in Delaware State Court, Illinois, and California We're going to 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:21.000 keep working up the cases while we wait for this 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.160 very important decision from the Delaware Supreme Court. 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.960 And Joe, you mentioned that planers are seeking to accuse 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.240 Judge Roberts in Philadelphia. Is he just a child judge 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.840 or what is this relationship to the Santa cases? 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:38.440 Right? So Judge Roberts actually is in charge of the 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:42.880 complex Litigation Department in Philadelphia Court to common please, So 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.800 in ensence, he's the judge that is in charge of 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.760 the whole mass Tourt department. So although we can serve 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.400 as a trial judge in certain cases, typically in the 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:56.960 Philadelphia Mass Tourt Department, he would make decisions that impact 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.240 all the cases for a certain case type and then 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:02.880 the case would be assigned to a different trial drudge 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.200 for a specific trial. So he has a very prominent 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:07.559 role here in Philadelphia. 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:13.280 So with that, I'm going to shift gears. 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.960 There's another mass sort making its way through the courts 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.560 and various federal court and state court, and that relates 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:27.640 to something called neck formula. Maker's Abbott and recommenct Beckinser's 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.920 me Johnson unit face claims that cow's milk based formula 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:35.080 for pre term infants calls caused something, and I hope 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:41.800 I don't watch the pronunciation. Something called necrotizing entero colitis 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:46.440 or neck, which can lead to lifelong complications. It's the 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:52.480 disease of the intestines that infants get and the claim 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.840 is that it caused this disease in pre term infants. 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.320 So about a thousand lawsuits have been filed. About half 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.680 of them we estimator in state court. The remainder are 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.720 in federal court. There's a consolidated proceeding. And we saw 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.440 two notable verdicts in state court, one out of Illinois 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.120 for sixty million and one out of Missouri for five 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.680 hundred million. I was wondering if you could talk about the 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.200 verdics and also the status of these lawsuits. 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.040 Right, So, as you mentioned, we had these two really 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.080 large verdicts come out. The first was in March of 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:29.520 twenty twenty four. It was a Saint Clair, Chicago jewelry 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:33.360 verdick for sixty million. After that we saw needs parent 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:39.160 company it lost seven billion dollars in market value. And 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:42.280 then later in the summer here in July twenty twenty four, 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:46.560 a Missouri state court awarded four hundred and ninety five 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.840 million to a family of an infant who developed necked. 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:54.080 That verdict consisted of ninety five million in compensatory damages 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.360 and four hundred million impunitied damage. So, as you mentioned, 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:02.920 we have this litigation going on on multiple fronts. So 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.960 as we typically see in mass tourge, we have in MDL, 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.200 which here is centralized in the Northern District of Illinois. 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.280 It was formed in April twenty twenty two. In the 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:18.120 MDL we have about five hundred and sixty a little 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.560 under six hundred cases. Then we also have state court 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:27.760 proceedings going on in Illinois, Missouri, and Philadelphia. In Philadelphia, 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.320 it's a little bit unique. We have claims going on 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:35.280 involving the hospitals, which we typically aren't seeing being sued 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.600 in the other state court proceedings. So in the MDL 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:44.280 right now, the court just recently identified the four Bellweather trials. 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.720 We're expecting those cases to kick off the trials in 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.280 Q two of twenty twenty five. We have additional state 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.560 courts that trials are set again in twenty twenty five, 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.880 and the numbers you had right there was about a 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.080 thousand lawsuits filed. Just something to note some of the 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.920 lawsuits that were filed in state courts allowed for multi 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:12.480 plainiff complaints, So our numbers estimate that there could be 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.120 as much as three thousand plaintiffs that were injured so far. 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.879 So most of the action sixty seventy percent is in 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.400 state court. So we're looking forward to getting more cases 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.639 in front of a jewelry here. That's likely not going 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.040 to happen until the beginning of twenty twenty five. 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.840 That's interesting, Like we had seen like a six billion 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.320 market cap loss since losing a case in marchin as 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:44.280 of July for a record, So you mentioned you think 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.760 you had said you mentioned that these cases are hard 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:49.800 to come by for plaintiffs attorneys. 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:52.399 Can you explain why that is? 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.160 Yeah, So in mass towards, we've seen some very large 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.800 mass tours over the last couple of years. Three m 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:04.040 ear plug over two hundred and fifty thousand plaintiffs and 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:08.720 round up one hundred thousand cases have been settled in Zantac. 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.440 More than one hundred thousand plaintiffs came forward. In Hernia 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:17.000 Mesh tens of thousands, close to seventy eighty thousand plaintiffs 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:21.280 came forward. So with these cases, the anyc cases are 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:26.000 unique because the numerosity just isn't there. It's estimated on 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.680 average thirty five hundred babies are diagnosed each year with ANYC, 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.119 So even if you go back twenty years, you're looking 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:38.600 at a total population of maybe seventy eighty thousand potential 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.960 babies diagnosed with any C. And unfortunately, what we're seeing 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.439 is there's a little bit of shame or concern on 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:52.720 mothers coming forward because they blame themselves unfortunately for their diagnosis. 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.440 So it's not as large of a mass toward as 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.320 we've seen, and those numbers are reflected. But what we 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:04.119 talked about the MDL with five hundred and fifty cases here, 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:06.560 you know, we might see that go up to twelve 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.399 or fifteen hundred, and then at the end of the 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.000 day we're going to have a few thousand in state courts. 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.960 I anticipate that we'll only end up seeing about ten 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.679 thousand total cases, so it won't be a very large 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.320 masterwort like some of the biggest ones, but it will 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.840 get over that threshold, so it's a very important case. 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.720 Obviously, this is sort of like on the low end 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.000 of diagnoses per year, so it's not like a non 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:35.159 Hodgmin from film case like where the alleged injury related 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.000 to roundup where I think it's like eighty thousand or 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.000 something like that, seventy or eighty thousand diagnoses per year. 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.280 Here there's like thirty five hundred eighty diagnosed with neck 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.119 per year. So it's going to be a lot the 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.639 numbers are a number of cases going to be a 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.560 lot lower. And it's interesting what you said about the 0:19:53.600 --> 0:19:57.639 shame because of the plane of mothers coming forward, because 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:00.280 you know, one of the things we've seen in some 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:01.040 of these. 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:05.440 Trials is that you know, the mom's health is really scrutinized. 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:10.720 You know, whether the mom had create clampsia or whether 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.439 the mom, you know, did the mom you know, consume 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:16.960 anything that she she wasn't supposed to during prisis. So 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:22.399 that's a that's a pretty interesting issue in federal cases, 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:24.840 a hearing on Dealbert motions or schedule for next year. 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:27.880 Can you explain why the Dealbert hearings are important? 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:33.680 The Dalbard rulings and the Dalbert hearing are usually the 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.600 most important part of any mass toward case. So Adalbert 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:42.600 hearing is a court held meeting where the judge acts 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.280 as a gatekeeper, and the hearing is based on the 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.119 Dalbert's standard, and what the judge tries to do is 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.879 it needs to evaluate the reliability and relevancy of the 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:58.760 expert testimony. So the judge is acting as a gatekeeper 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.320 of the evidence and determining what can be permitted to 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:06.639 reach the jury and what can't be So we know, 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.440 and we've seen recently how important these decisions are because 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:14.440 in the Zantac MDL, the judge, acting as a gatekeeper, 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:19.159 found that the plaintiffs experts opinion were not reliable and 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:23.399 they were excluded. In Delaware's ANTAK, the judge found that 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:28.560 the opinions were reliable and relevant and were admitted. So basically, 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:33.960 the outcome of MBL usually depends upon the determination of 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:39.720 the Dallbird hearings. So once we see a Dallbird hearing, 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.520 and if the defendant's motion to exclude plainiffs experts granted, 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.119 then they move for summary judgment and the cases are dismissed. 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.760 But if we are able to successfully win that Dallberd hearing, 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:55.400 that applies a lot of pressure to the defendants either 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:59.160 settlement negotiations really kick up, or were able to get 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:01.600 the case in front of a jury where we really 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:03.960 want to be. But if we don't have the expert 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:08.280 opinion in these very scientific and complex cases, we can't 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:09.080 go to a jury. 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:11.600 In light of that, how do you see these losses 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:13.159 playing out over the next year or so? 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:17.879 Yeah, I think these lawsuits are going to pick up 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.159 steam over the next couple of years. As we mentioned, 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:26.399 the MDL is only relatively new, being formed in twenty 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:30.040 twenty two, so the cases will kick off. We'll get 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:32.800 more cases in front of a jury in twenty twenty five. 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:35.840 I expect there to be some more pretty big verdicts 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:40.399 coming out, and then I anticipate some sort of inventory 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:44.520 or global settlement coming into place towards the end of 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:45.520 twenty twenty five. 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:53.280 And now turning to another litigation against TFEST Chemicals or 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:57.240 so called Forever Chemicals. By way of background personal injury plaintiffs, 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.680 What are authorities and states to the companies Factures three 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:03.760 M DuPont, Comores and others for ledged contamination caused by 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:06.639 a triple F for firefighting FROME. The claims are that 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:12.719 the chemicals contaminated drinking water which required remediation or injured 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.760 those who drank the drinking water. States have also sued 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:20.159 saying that the PPS chemicals damaged natural resources. So we 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:22.439 saw a number of settlements, one for ten billion by 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.040 three AM and one by DuPont and Comores for one 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:28.520 point two billion, and those were class action settlements with 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.399 water authorities, but personal injury cases were not part of 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.080 that class action deal. Those have not been resolved. Can 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:36.639 you walk us through where those personal injury cases are? 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:40.879 Certainly so, this MDL is a little bit unique. So, 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:44.919 as you mentioned, we have in the MDL before Judge 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:48.680 Gurgle in the United States District Court for the District 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:53.359 of South Carolina in MDL where there's water authorities and 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:58.840 states along with individual planiffs who have the personal injury cases. So, 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:03.040 after this md OUT got formed in late twenty and eighteen, 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:07.960 the focus was really on those water contamination cases evolving 0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:11.600 the water authorities. We saw some of the settlements like 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:15.600 you mentioned in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four, and 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:19.600 then the attention really beginning in twenty twenty four, shifted 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:22.800 to these personal injury cases. So right now where we're 0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:25.800 at is that there's six injuries that are currently being 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:33.080 actively litigated and those are kidney cancer testicular cancer, ultra colitis, 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:39.240 thyroid disease, liver cancer, and liver disease. So basically, the 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:42.880 typical plane if is someone who consumed water while living 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:48.480 in an area known for p FoST contamination attributed to 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:52.280 the use of firefighting foae. So the typical source of 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:59.399 PFAS contaminations include firefighter training areas, military bases, airports, and 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:03.240 fires stations. So in the summer here in July twenty 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:08.000 twenty four, the court selected eleven Bellweather cases and these 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:10.960 cases are going to focus on four injuries, and in 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:14.840 an attempt to streamline the process, the court stated that 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:19.440 the certain cancers, the kidney antisticular cancers are going to 0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:24.520 involve individual plaintiffs located and exposed here in Pennsylvania, not 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:27.520 far from where I'm at. And the thighrary disease and 0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:32.480 ultra colitis cases are going to involve plainiffs that were 0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:37.520 exposed in Colorado. We have a case management conference on 0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:41.080