1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Yeah, hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: And in this podcast, we are continuing our journey through 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: the Seven Deadly Sins. Uh Yes. To what extent are 6 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: they sins? What extent are they detrimental to our lives? 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: To what extent are they evolutionary necessities. We're going to 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: continue to discuss all of this. So last time we 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: talked about pride. This time we're talking about envy, which 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: lines up nicely because in Dante's Purgatory, Dante has to 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: ascend this mountain of purgatory that connects Earth to the sky, 12 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: Earth to the heavens. At the top of this mountain 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: is the earthly paradise, and individuals that are going through 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: purgatory they have to work off each layer of sin 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: before they're to enter into the higher realms. So the 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: first level you end up going through a terrace on 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: this mountain. The first terrace deals with pride, and the 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: second Terrorists deals with invY. And it's interesting when one 19 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: travels to this imagined room, you find the envious shades 20 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: to these individuals who were who were very envious in life, 21 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: and they're gonna have to work this junk off before 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: they can they can rise higher. They're all leaning against 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: each other again and against boulders. They're all sort of 24 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: huddled around like beggars. As Dante comes closer, he finds 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: that their eyelids are sown shut with wire. Okay, yeah, 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: that seems reasonable because in the especially you know, are 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: under our are sort of figurative understanding of it. It's 28 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: all about the eyes, you know, green eyed envy. It's 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: about it's about looking at other things and covening. Um. 30 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: And so these individuals coveted in their lives, they looked 31 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: with with these envious eyes. And now all these envious 32 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: eyes are shut. See. I think that is the sort 33 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: of attention that envy should get, because it is it's 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: actually pretty important. And we I was, we were researching this. 35 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: I thought, this is really very interesting stuff. Um, and 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: you think it's exactly the kind of attention and we 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: should get. Well no, no, no, I don't actually have 38 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: their eyelids shown the sun shut. No, especially not with 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: wire thread. That's just that's just cruel. Well I was 40 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 1: really interesting enough side. Uh no, but apparently they would 41 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: take hawks and they would part of the training of 42 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: a hawk would be too so it's eyes shut with 43 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: with laces of gut like you know, tennis string or something, 44 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: and that was just part of training the hawk to 45 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: accept food from a human master. In all this so 46 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: right that it is not like the hawk was coveting 47 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: other hawks, right right. But it's interesting that that's where 48 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: that came from. It wasn't just Dante being morbid. And 49 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: I mean he's being a little more bid. He's Dante, 50 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: but but he he got the idea from the way 51 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: people trained at hawks. Well. But again, I think that 52 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: this is the sort of import that MV has. New 53 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: York Times writer John Turney actually was talking about it 54 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: being one of the seven sins and being kind of boring. 55 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: He said, at first, you know, for him, it was 56 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: the most useless of the deadly sins, excruciating to experience, 57 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: shameful to admit, bereft of immediate pleasure or long term benefits. 58 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: To an evolutionary psychologist, there's a certain logic to seducing 59 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: thy neighbor's wife or stealing his goods. But what's the 60 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: point of merely covering them. Yeah. Yeah, it was an 61 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: interesting point you made, because it is. It is not 62 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: a fun sin when you hear people talk about it. 63 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go out and say, you know, we're like 64 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: a carnival type deal where it's like I've got to 65 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: start being good tomorrow, but tonight I'm just gonna covet 66 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: my face off. Like nobody says that, you know, it's 67 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: all about the other vices. No one's like, Oh, I'm 68 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: gonna so the envious of bread pet tonight, it's gonna 69 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: be great right in front of you and I'm going 70 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: to cover you all up. Uh, but let's talk about 71 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: a belt's started to get into meat up in the 72 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: meat of it because some people think of it as jealousy, 73 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: but it actually is not jealousy. Um. Envy is more 74 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: of a longing for what you don't have, whereas jealousy 75 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: is more provoked by losing something that might have had 76 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: to someone else, Like like two people are competing for 77 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: a job and one gets it over the other, and 78 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: then the person who didn't get the job to be jealous. 79 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: And actually, envy comes from the Latin word in the invidiary, 80 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: which means to look at with malice or cast an 81 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: evil eye, which is sort of interesting when you were 82 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: talking about the sewing shuts of the eye. Again, it's 83 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: all relating back to that consumption. Um. And is there 84 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: an upside to this? It's kind of funny all the 85 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: other since there's a bit of an upside, but this one, 86 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: I have to say, this is a bit of a 87 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: dark side. And yes, there's an upside in the sense 88 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: that you can use envy along um. Let's say, if 89 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: you use the prism of admiration alongside with it, um, 90 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: you could be more likely to closely note how someone 91 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: behaves or has attained his or her success and then 92 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: try to emulate that and create these conditions for yourself. Yeah, 93 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: you end up with the with these two different versions 94 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: of envy. You have a benign envying, you have a 95 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: malicious on the benign and v I just for consistency sake, 96 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: I looked up in the Ascetaic Bible to see what 97 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: Anton LaVey had to say about Of course, yeah, he's 98 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: you know, it was very much making kind of a 99 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: new age argument for for these various sins and against 100 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: organized religion and and uh. He said that envy needs 101 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: to look with favor upon the positions of others, and 102 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: to be desirous of desirous of obtaining similar things for oneself. 103 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: And if he and greed are the motivating forces of ambition, 104 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: and without ambition, very little of any importance would be accomplished. 105 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: And that's a valid goat hats aside, that's a that's 106 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: a valid argument, you know, because because you think of 107 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: the people in life that you look at our heroes 108 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: and uh, and there's a certain amount of envy there. 109 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: You're like, man that you know that dude is an 110 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: awesome writer. I wish I had had skills like that. 111 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: But but in many cases it takes on that that 112 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: form of I'm gonna really look at what this guy's doing. 113 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to try and emulate how he approaches his art, 114 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: and then I'm going to be better for it, you know. Yeah, 115 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: And that's what I think. It's interesting about envyous So 116 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: much of it is predicated on your ability to him 117 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: imagine your life, a future life for yourself. And again 118 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: that's where the benign comes in. If you could look 119 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: at someone and say, I feel motivated by this person. Uh, 120 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: there are things that this person has that I want 121 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: that that fit along with what makes sense in my 122 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: life or what's really important to me. Obviously, the malicious 123 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: part comes uh into play when you pay attention to 124 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: people who you feel like are superior to you too, 125 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: to the point where, uh you wish that things would 126 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: happen to these people, Um that you began to resent people. 127 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: You spend way too much mental energy on obsessing about something, 128 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: and that obsession is really at the core of this. Yes, 129 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: a malicious envy becomes. It's it's not as much a 130 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: I really admire that person I want to be like them. 131 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: It's more like I really admire that person or not 132 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: as much I admire them, and like that person has 133 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: things I wish I had. I can't have them, but 134 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: stabbing them would still would still feel pretty good. If 135 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: I can't, If I can't achieve that level aim, I 136 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: could at least take that level of fame from them, 137 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: which on the surface sounds just insane, but as well, 138 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: as we'll discuss if if you kind of break it 139 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: down you can you can find some potential evolutionary advantages 140 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: in that as well. Right well, I mean, what you're 141 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: trying to do is find their weakness so that you 142 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: can bring them back down to your your level, right, 143 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: so in essential leveling the playing field. Right, It's kind 144 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: of like, all that person is an awesome runner. My 145 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: benign envy says I can train up and become as 146 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: good a runner as they are and maybe, you know, 147 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: get a little faster and beat them. The other one 148 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: is like, I will never be as good a runner 149 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: as they are, but I bet if I cut their 150 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: tendons with a knife then I could easily outrun them. 151 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: Either way, each scenario ends with me winning the race. 152 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: It's kind of the Tanya Harding effect, right, like, Wow, 153 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: you're such a great skater, I'm just gonna hit you 154 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: in the in the knees and break your knees. Um. So, yeah, 155 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: there's malicious, there's benign. And it turns out that in 156 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: memories to auties, this sort of envy really plays into 157 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: our ability to remember details about people. Um. There have 158 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: been experiments with envy a students at Texas Christian University 159 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: and Fort Worth and the University of Texas at Austin, Texas, 160 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: and researchers bore out the conclusion that students who read 161 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: stories about envy inducing characters had far better recall than 162 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: non envy inducing characters. Again, here's your mind really dwelling 163 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: on this person and what they have or what they 164 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: don't have, what you don't have. And it also turns 165 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: out that, um, there's a bit of ego depletion involved 166 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: in this. So it ends up actually wearing down your 167 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: mental faculties. Yeah, and we talked about this, We talked 168 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: about ego depletion. Is is um, one of the things 169 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: that happens when decision fatigue. You have to make up 170 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: all these decisions about what goes on my sandwich, whatever 171 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: music I'm gonna listen to, you know how, I'm gonna 172 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: get to work, and by the end of the day, 173 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: I'm not able to really tackle difficult cognitive problems exactly 174 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: because you you're suffering from ego depletion. So another study 175 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: this is this the same group of researchers. They had 176 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: students contemplating a wealthy, attractive peer, and then students were 177 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: asked to work on puzzles and compared with the control group, 178 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: they gave up much sooner, which is the same thing 179 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: that we saw with the decision fatigue and the people 180 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: that had to make up all those decisions or make 181 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: all those decisions, and then we're later given a self 182 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: control test and those people I remember this is something 183 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: like they had to put their hands in ice water, 184 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: and those people had were able to put their hands 185 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: in ice water for half the time than the control groups. 186 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: So again you're seeing parallels here with the eroding of 187 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: of um, your mental faculties, of which honestly, we only 188 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: have a finite amount of mental energy per day, right, 189 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: so it's how are you going to spend it? Are 190 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: you're gonna waste it sort of dreamily staring at this 191 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 1: other person's life or worth stabbing them in your imagination? 192 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: And and the thing is they whole, They're just all 193 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: you have to do is go through the checkoutline at 194 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: the grocery store, and and whole industries thrive on on 195 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: injy um. I mean, all these tabloids about what's the 196 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: celebrity doing, what's this celebrity buying, what's the celebrity's of 197 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: personal life consists of? And mean you walk by it 198 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: and you're just like, what how do people fill their 199 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: days with this? You just just gaze into this, Uh, 200 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: the celebrity of this. There's one magazine that the I 201 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: don't know if it's us or something. But I remember 202 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: flipping through it once and they have a section called 203 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: celebrities they're just like us, And it just completely cracked 204 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: me up because it was like, this person wears a 205 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: sweatshirt when they're going to the store, too, and so 206 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: it reminded me of this this idea that's not quite 207 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: schaden freud. Yeah, but it's sort of like, well, they 208 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: look kind of schleppy sometimes too. That makes me feel 209 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: a lot better. Yeah, well, yeah, it's not quite personally, Yeah, 210 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: but no, I understand what you're saying. It's not they're 211 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: not it's not quite I hate this person. I want 212 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: to see him stabbed. It's like I'm taking comfort in 213 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: the fact that this person is mortal as well, and 214 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: uh and and is open to the same flaws and 215 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: normalities that I am. Well, and it turns out that 216 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: envy and chitten freud are actually linked, researchers think, and 217 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: we'll talk about that in one minute when we come back. 218 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: All right, we're back, um, which is an interesting concept 219 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: and one that you actually find some theologians discussing Thomas 220 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: aquinas Um in uh Suma Theologica said, wherefore, in order 221 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful 222 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: to them, and they may render more copious thanks to 223 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: God for it. Uh, they are allowed to see perfectly 224 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: the sufferings of the damned. So we're talking about saints 225 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: being able to see people's torments in hell. And then 226 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: there was I ran across another example where Jonathan Edwards, 227 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: the author of Center in the Hands of an angry God, 228 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: he was making pretty much the same argument. The view 229 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: of the misery of the dam will double the ardor 230 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: of the love and gratitude of the saints in heaven. Forth, 231 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: the sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of 232 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: the saints forever. It will not only make them more 233 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: sensible of the greatness and the freeness of the grace 234 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: of God and their happiness, but it will really make 235 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: their happiness the greater, as it will make them more 236 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: sensible of their own happiness, which sounds kind of nuts, yeah, 237 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: kind yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean there's this idea 238 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: of Schipenfreud of um sort of lowering the veil of perfection, right, 239 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: And uh, if if it's someone you emvvery they seem 240 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: like they're just bulletproof. And then all of a sudden 241 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: you see that they've got a chink in their armor, 242 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: and it's it's the tabloid thing again. It's like, let 243 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: me see my heroes in unflattering swimsuits, let me see 244 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: them making mistakes, let me see them growing older. And 245 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: I always find a morbid fascination in the phrasing of that, 246 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: because it's, uh, if if it's somebody that the reader 247 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: of the tabloid is meant to like, it is, it's 248 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: always like so and so's brave last days, Like like 249 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: I think Elizabeth Taylor was having brave last Days for 250 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: like half a decade. But then other people, it's just 251 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: the language is always far worse, like oh, they're just 252 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: they're just on the verge of death, you know. And 253 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: and and people eat it up because it's they're getting 254 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: to see their their heroes fall there, their gods are 255 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: are brought down to their level. And then, well, isn't 256 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: it the whole problem? I guess you could say the 257 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: problem of our existence is at our our consciousness and 258 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: the sense that we know we're all going to die 259 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: some days. So yeah, at a very basic level, it's like, hey, 260 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: this is happening. I know, what's gonna happen for me 261 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: is gonna it's happened to this person, but birthday candles 262 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: to bring it back to that, what's going to happen 263 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: when we reached the point where the first celebrity that 264 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: everyone hates is like, and guess what, guys, I'm living forever? 265 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: And then I mean I think rise up among the 266 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: tabloid readers will just be immense. I think our example 267 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: for that episode was Charlie Sheen. Yeah, I don't think 268 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: my just changed since we recorded that. Um if there's 269 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: anybody else that could replace them. But I want to 270 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: tell you about a study about envy and schaden freud 271 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: and um it has a great title. Actually, it's called 272 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: when your gain is my pain and your pain is 273 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: my gain Neural correlates correlates of envy and schaden freud. 274 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: And this is a study by Haidahiko Takahishi, which we 275 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: talked about him in the Pride episode. UM So he 276 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: and some other researchers set out to to research this 277 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: and this was there um part of their in their 278 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: abstract that said, we often evaluate the self and others 279 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: from social comparisons. We feel emvy when the target person 280 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: has superior and self relevant characteristics. Schanden Freud occurs when 281 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: envied persons fall from grace and they go on a 282 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: bit and then they say, are finding document mechanisms of 283 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: painful emotion and the rewarding reaction shaden Freud. It's really 284 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: fascinating what they did here, And if you guys can 285 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: just kind of bear with me as I talk a 286 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: bit about the details. UM, because they did two different 287 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: studies that relate together. They had nineteen subjects that were 288 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: asked to visualize being a protagonist in scenarios that college 289 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: students might faceball undergoing UM an m R I. So 290 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: they have these scenarios that they're they're inserting themselves into 291 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: as the protagonist and UH. For example, UM, the following scenario, 292 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: a male subject was asked to imagine himself as a protagonist. 293 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: Student A, this is the person that they're invying, did 294 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: well in his final examinations, but the protagonist did not. 295 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: Student A is talented in baseball, but the protagonist is not. 296 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: Student A is popular among girls and has a beautiful 297 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: and intelligent girlfriend, but protagonist is not popular and does 298 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: not have a steady girlfriend. So they go on to 299 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: say student A successful in a job interview and getting 300 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: along really well the company he wants to join. The 301 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: protagonist is not. The salary is great for Student A. 302 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: He has a luxury condominium downtown. Okay, it just gets 303 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: worse and worse for for protagonist. Takahashi had the subject 304 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: imagine as schaden Freud evoking scenario then in which the 305 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: protagonist is then doing much better than Student A, and 306 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: the scenarios are were varied to include the gender of 307 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: the subject UM and other students might be assigned the 308 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: same gender as the subject to help them relate right um. 309 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: And also details were changed so that there would be 310 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: a degree of similarity between the imagined student A and 311 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: the protagonist. So analysis of the resulting brain scans compared 312 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: the activation in different brain regions under envy invoking and 313 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: then Schadenfreud evoking and then neutral scenarios, so they could 314 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: test this out and controlled type situation. UM, and then 315 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: the subjects were asked to rate their relative feelings of envy. 316 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: And they're gloating in the scenario, so this is okay, 317 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: this is all okay, Yeah, yeah, I get it. They're 318 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: they're really trying to set this up. Um, This is 319 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: where it gets interesting. The envy producing scenario showed activation 320 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: in the anterior singulate cortex, and that's the place in 321 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: the brain that's associated with error detection or conflict, which 322 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: was also activated by pain. Said. The conclusion here is 323 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: that people experiencing envy, which is associated with shame, or 324 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: feeling emotional pain or the pain of social exclusion, which 325 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: I found fascinating because here's just part of your brain 326 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: that that is really sis to perceive physical pain. But 327 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: if you are envying someone, you're actually feeling some sort 328 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: of emotional pain from your envy. And we have to 329 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: think back to the purpose of pain itself as the 330 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: my my body is feeling pain, therefore something is wrong 331 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: and must be addressed or avoided. Like there's a stick 332 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: jabbing into my thigh, I should remove said stick. My 333 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: stomach is hurting. Whatever I ate is bad and I 334 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: should probably not eat it again. So we have to 335 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: take that and extrapolate it into the into social dynamics. 336 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: You're feeling this emotional pain. I am not as good 337 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: as they are. I'm not feeling that my self worth 338 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: is really taken a hit here. I should become as 339 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: good as them. I should I should rise above them, 340 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: I should stab them in the thigh. You know, well, 341 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: I mean it's the stabbing is the purest form of 342 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: malicious envy, I think. Well, okay, so this is the 343 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: other interesting part of this is that when they had 344 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: the downfall of student A, they saw activation in the 345 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: ventral striatom, which is as associated with rewarding stimuli, and 346 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: so Takahashi interpret the activation with schadenfreud as a feeling 347 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: of pleasure, which makes sense, right, um, So they feel 348 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: like there are correlates here. You know that m vy 349 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: and Schenfreud go hand in hand. The other thing that 350 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: correlated with this is that if the student or the 351 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: person in this um, I should say that the protagonist, 352 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: the person in the study, if they did not feel 353 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: any sort of kinship with this person, did not feel 354 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: that they were at all on the same level and 355 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: that they couldn't imagine themselves in habiting this person's world. 356 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: They did not feel any envy, They did not have 357 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: any activation in the interior singulate cortex or in the 358 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: ventral striatom when they were when they had the shade 359 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: fraud scenario. So you have to be able to put 360 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: yourself in their shoes to some extent to actually take 361 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: pleasure in their downfall. You have to imagine this life 362 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: for yourself because even though there might be some great 363 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: object that someone has in their possession, if you don't 364 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: somehow connect with that person, to relate with that person, 365 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: then it doesn't matter to you. So you you know what, 366 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: that could be a myriad things, right, It could be um, 367 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: they have socio economic background. Um, it could be the 368 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: kind of music they listened to. Um. But it makes 369 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: sense that in a workplace scenario, why there might be 370 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: more instances of envy because in a workplace scenario, you're 371 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: more likely to connect or not necessarily connect, but to um, Well, 372 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: they're in your world. They're they're in your world. That's 373 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: right there. They're on your playing field. So that was 374 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 1: really fascinating about this study. But not only that, there's neuroscientists. Um. 375 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: They're taking the findings of the activation of the anterior 376 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: singulate cortex. Again, this is where the pain physical pain 377 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: would usually light up activation of the brain, and they're 378 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: saying that it's an indication of development of complex emotions, 379 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: piggybacking off the primal brain system. So that's the rat 380 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: like hind brain. Yes, yeah, yeah, So what they're saying 381 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: is that that that this could point to um, not 382 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: us developing more complex systems in order to deal with 383 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: more complex feelings, but really piggybacking off these primal feelings. 384 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: It's the it's the brain is an ice cream scoop again, 385 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: you know the idea that that it's just one more 386 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: scoop added to the brain evolves. Yeah, not not an 387 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: overall rehall of the system. It's not a banana split. 388 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: It's an ice cream cone. Yet, you know double degger. Well, 389 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: I can't speak for most work places, but we do 390 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: have relatively few stabbings here at the Work's true. Yeah, um, 391 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: there's no a lot of meaning going on here. Um. 392 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: And I'm going to say that's I'm going to go 393 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: out on a limb here and say that's probably because 394 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: there are not a whole lot of people, as far 395 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: as I know, that are morally disengaged. And when I 396 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: say morally disengaged, I don't need to say like cool, 397 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 1: they're you know, good or bad people. I'm talking about 398 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: it more in the sense of UM. A study that 399 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: was called the social context model and being social undermining, 400 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,479 Speaker 1: and it was in the Academy of Management journal, and 401 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: they were saying that if if an employee feels morally 402 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: disengaged at work, so they're feeling disconnected from other core 403 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: co workers, they are far more likely to not just 404 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: envy co workers with whom they feel they have similarities. 405 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 1: Again that's really important, but they would actually act on 406 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: those on those uh thoughts of envy and try to 407 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: sabotage them. Interesting. So, potentially, say an office where individuals 408 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: don't have much of contact with one another, they would 409 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: there would be more likely to be a morally disengaged 410 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: I would, Well, it kind of depends on the person. Uh, 411 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: it's it may just be that they feel disinfranchised or 412 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: they just don't feel connected, because I think a lot 413 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: of us now work remotely, but we still have relationships, uh, 414 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: you know, thanks to the magic and the power of 415 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: the internet. Right. Um. But what they did is they 416 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: looked at a hundred and sixty employees um from a 417 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: Midwest American hospital and they tested whether the person had 418 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: a lack of identification with colleagues because they knew this 419 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: would increase the them acting on their envy and respondents 420 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: took to surveys they were eight months apart to assess 421 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: their envy, their affinity with colleagues, and their comfort with 422 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: subversive acts and the research. The research basically said that 423 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: envy these people with ties to coworkers were less likely 424 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: to act on their envy, while lone wolves seemed to 425 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: enter into a bubble of moral disengagement that allowed them 426 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: to more freely undermine colleagues by, you know, withholding information 427 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: or spreading gossip for instance. And so the more all 428 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: of this story was, you know, hey, company, she should 429 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: really make sure that all of your employees feel like 430 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: they have a stake in the matter, or they feel 431 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: connected to each other in one man or another, and 432 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: make them feel like they're on the same team. That 433 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: it's that it's a wee and not like that I'm 434 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: not this embattled employee. That it's like, well, they're all 435 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: out to get me anyway, so I might as well 436 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: do whatever that I want. So, yeah, I mean that's 437 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: so that you don't enter into this bubble where it's 438 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: okay to morally distance yourself and maybe just start jamming 439 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: up the copying machine on purpose. I don't know, Oh 440 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: that one I was broken the other day. Well, it 441 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: reminds me. I can't help but think of the film 442 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: The Spanish Prisoner by David Mamma, see this I did, 443 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: yeah long time had like Steve Martin plays the shadowy 444 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: character and and uh, and that's largely all. I don't 445 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: remember what the exact plot was, except I had to 446 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 1: do with a classic scam called The Spanish Prisoner. There's 447 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: a really nice scene where this, uh, this the protagonist 448 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: in the story is really sudden, like he's working condition 449 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,239 Speaker 1: is suddenly taking a dive and his employers are being 450 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: kind of jerks to him and he's He's like, what's 451 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: this about? And this outher character explains to them, Well, 452 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: it's because they're about to screw you over, so they're 453 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: they're having to create this moral distance from you to 454 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: do it. So so you can see that that potentially 455 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: working both ways and an employee employee or situation. Well, 456 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: we've seen moral distancing in so many different situations. We 457 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: talked about it and lying, where people start to use 458 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: third person references for themselves as opposed to first person. 459 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: We've talked about it in eating animals, how you start 460 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: to talk about meat in very different terms. Um so yeah, 461 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: I mean you can definitely see this at work in 462 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,719 Speaker 1: all different levels of your relationship to your world. Anytime 463 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: you hear someone talking about bureaucracy um, which granted there's 464 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: there are plenty of times in any corporation, any kind 465 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: of working environment where you can say like, oh, that 466 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: seems a little bureaucratic, you know, in the negative sense, 467 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 1: but it's also like an instant way to to distance 468 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: yourself from the actual people and the you know, you're 469 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: just like, oh, there's a bureaucracy in place, there's the 470 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: soulless entity that is messing with my happiness well, and 471 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: it is the ability to label like that is a 472 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: sense of comfort to right because it's like, oh, this nameless, 473 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: faceless thing, which is you know, impacting my life in 474 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: a nameless, faithless thing. I can totally still off the 475 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: supplies from that. Yeah, post it notes, Yeah, let's have 476 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: my name on it. Journalist Oliver James he has a 477 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: talk on the School of Life about envy specifically, and 478 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: it was really interesting. He talks about envy as being 479 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: affluenza as opposed to influence. The affluenza this preoccupation would 480 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 1: becoming affluent, and he says it's largely cultural he says 481 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: that if you live in Denmark and had an envy 482 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: inspiring childhood, meaning things happened in your childhood and which 483 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: sort of set you up to to envy others, uh, 484 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: you're less likely to express it than if you live 485 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: in New York or London because at a very simple level, 486 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: much less energy is um expended in mainline continental societies 487 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: and fostering envy. So his point there is there, you know, 488 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: there has got to be culture. Well, there are some countries, 489 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: there are some regions where this pursuit of things and 490 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: in abstractions of happiness via wealth aren't really important. And 491 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: he says that since the nineteen sixties, four times more 492 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: has been spent per capita on advertising and marketing in 493 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: America compared to the continental mainline Europe. And he says 494 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: and throughout the rest of English speaking world, including England, 495 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: twice as much as being spent. So he says, okay, 496 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: let's let's look at the marketing and the advertising, because 497 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: it's very much encouraging you to covet to want things 498 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: that other people have. Huh. It reminds me of the 499 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: in Tibetan Buddhism. The Buddhism in general, there's the idea 500 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: of the predda is the realm of the preda is 501 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: the hungry ghost these which is one of the lower 502 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: realms that one can find themselves born into. And the 503 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: predas have enormous bellies and u and tiny narrow necks 504 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: and the ravenous mouths because they're just so hungry for things, 505 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: for material possessions generally, you know, they're they're so hungry 506 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: for the things in the world around them, and they 507 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: don't have the ability to keep up with that hunger. 508 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: Well see, And it's it's interesting there you have a 509 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: culture and where you're actually talking about this, right. This 510 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: is if you're I don't know if people are sitting 511 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: around the dinner table into that for instance, and talking 512 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: about this. But here is a story about envy and 513 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: um and what happens when you engage in it. And 514 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: this is another thing that James Oliver was talking about. 515 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: There are cultures that are much more traditional that actually 516 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: try to minimize evil. And what he was talking about 517 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: is that they have belief structures in place to kind 518 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: of downplay it. And he was saying that for instance, 519 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: an evil I might be cast upon you if you 520 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: were to start to brag about your success right or 521 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: your successes and um, he's also saying that cultures that 522 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: have less property rights. And this is not just we're 523 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: not just talking about giving smyth the stink guy here, 524 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: whether they just kind kind of like every actually evil 525 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: eye and actual pulling out the evil eye and basically 526 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: saying stand down. Yeah, like we were not really interested 527 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: in you know, man, wouldn't be great to do that. 528 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: Like you go to you go to a party and 529 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: somebody starts off on some some some long discussion about 530 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: how great the are and you can just pull out 531 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: the evil eye and let him have it. Yeah, and 532 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: you say, hey, hey, hey you jack and EPs just 533 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: just enough with that, I got my evil eye out. 534 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: You know, maybe we should Maybe this is something that 535 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: we can introduce in the United States, you know in 536 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: market and and market and other people will covet it. 537 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: Your friend talking a little bit too much about their 538 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: promotion evil. I I think for something here co worker 539 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: loves his nw kando a little too much evil. He 540 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: didn't get it evil eye tattoo. There are all sorts 541 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: of possibilities here. But I mean with his point though, 542 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: is like, here are these cultures that are actually saying 543 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: that this is not acceptable um in our society for 544 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: you to act this way. Well, again we go back 545 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: to Dante and the idea of a whole bunch of 546 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: Endia's individuals sitting on the side of a mountain with 547 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: their eyes soone shut. That sounds like like a pretty 548 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: argument there. Maybe just nobody listens to it anymore within 549 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: those cultures. I don't know. Yeah, that's a little bit 550 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: harder to sort of bring up in a special situation. Well, 551 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of a metaphorical what do you do? 552 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: Do you like a picture of some of their eyes? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 553 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: I guess you what you're saying. There's not an instant 554 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: sort of thing. I mean, all you could do. I 555 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: guess that the version of it we have that we 556 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: go to most in Western cultures is simply to roll 557 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: your eyes or sort of walk away from the conversation 558 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: or drastically try and change the subject. Or you could 559 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: put some sort of like make it look like wire 560 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: um thread on the rim of your eye and then 561 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: shut your eyes. Yeah, or you inject a little of 562 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: the schadenfreud if you're bragging about something, you ask a 563 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: Biden question that knocks the blockout from under him a 564 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: little bit, like like someone's got a new car and 565 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: they're like a new car is so great, and you're like, 566 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: so what's the appreciation right on a new vehicle like that? 567 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: What's the insurance like for that vehicle? And then yam, 568 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: But you know, if that's what Oliver James says, he 569 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: actually he talked about instance in his own life where 570 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: there was a colleague that he started to attack on 571 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: national television PS and or I guess on the BBC 572 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: and uh no no, but he started. He said it 573 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: was a complete rant and it didn't make any sense 574 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: to him until later he realized that he envied that 575 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: colleague and was trying to take him down a notch. 576 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: So you see that his he must have been getting 577 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: some sort of kick there, some sort of reward in 578 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: his brain. Um. But you know, this is what he says. 579 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: He says that that this sort of envy that's wanting 580 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: this void, this filling the void, is driving a lot 581 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: of mental illness. And he says that if we could 582 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: just turn more inward and try to figure out the 583 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: things that that make us happy, Like he was saying, 584 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: if you can, if you can identify the state of 585 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: flow that sometimes we engage in that state of flow 586 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: in which time just evaporates, right, because you were so 587 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: engaged in something and it's so pleasurable and you're living 588 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: in the moment. You're not living in a path that 589 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: you're concerned about or the future that you're worried over. Yeah, 590 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: he's saying, if we could just engage in that and 591 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: quit focusing on the exterior and what we think we're lacking, 592 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: then a lot of this sort of mental illness of 593 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: society would would not be as bad as it is. Um, 594 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: if we could quit listening basically to marketers and advertisers 595 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: and I didn't really care about the halftime Super Bowl ads, 596 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: you know, for instance, that this is sort of a 597 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: path that would would get us away from that, and 598 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: then we can depart the realm of hungry guys. I 599 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: like it. All right, Well, let's um, let's call the 600 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: robot over and uh see if he has an interesting listener. Mayo, 601 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: maybe to cap all this off, all right, we have 602 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: a couple here, both a rat related which I like. 603 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,479 Speaker 1: The first one is a respond to our recent and 604 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: dare I say, awesome rat King episode. Devin writes in 605 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: and says hello from Canada, thank you for all the 606 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: amazing podcasts. Uh, with the exception of your rat king episode. 607 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: I listened to all your podcasts while it would work 608 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: as a postman here in Edmonton, Alberta. Alberta is thankfully 609 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: a quote rat free, unquote province. This knowledge was a 610 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: secure any blanket that I clung to while listening to 611 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: you your podcast has me gagging and quivering up while 612 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: delivering mails. His childhood, I have had a phobia of rats. 613 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: I am able to control this fear down to a 614 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: mildest comfort in most cases. The rat king, however, is 615 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: one of the most disgusting things I could possibly imagine. Uh. 616 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: And then it all descends into as gibberish from there. 617 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: So that was a delightful Yeah. I'm sorry to cause 618 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: such consternation, but that was a really funny email. Yeah. 619 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: And then we also heard from Sue B who writes 620 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: in about the same gender sex pairings and animals the 621 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: gay animals episode we did, and Subi says I had 622 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: two pet rats that their sisters named Natalie and Eka. 623 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: It has an explanation point at the end as to 624 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: say that that's the kind of name that you would 625 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: need an explanation point with. Eka was large and more aggressive, 626 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: but not as adventurous as Natalie as to exploring their surroundings. 627 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: Natalie would get into anything not sealed off. Eca was 628 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: very interested in pinning latally down and licking her genet 629 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: o you or mounting her as a male would. Natalie 630 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: had no interest in this. At times, ECA's ardor was 631 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: very aggressive and nat would have to fight her off. 632 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: Eka would be would be relentless to the point that 633 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: it distressed me. I wanted to tell her to stop 634 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: raping her sister. So many character aspects here in incest, 635 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: same gender, sexual attraction, a possibility of a sexuality, and 636 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: just playing domination. I guess that's my two cents best 637 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: regards to be Wow, that was the oddest configuration of 638 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: words ever tumbling out of your mouth with with such 639 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: intonations as well. I don't even know what to say 640 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: with about that. So that's fascinating. We we asked for 641 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: examples of same sex animal adventures and uh, that was 642 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: an interesting account, So it wasn't expecting yet the level 643 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: of detail. Yeah, so hey, if the rest of you 644 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: guys would like to pipe in, if you have something 645 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: you would like to add about rat kings, about same 646 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 1: sex relationships between rat Kings, or just good old green indeed, 647 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: let us know. We'd love to hear about it. I 648 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: mean specifically, you know, how do you process envy in 649 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: your life? I mean, to to what extent do you 650 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: feel like you're aware of it? Do you ever catch 651 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: yourself becoming envious? And uh? And then how do you 652 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: process Did you ever know how much it wore your 653 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: brain down? Yeah? Yeah? Do you feel like a little 654 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: worn out after a long bout of envy? If so, 655 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: let us know. Um. You can find us on Facebook 656 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: as stuff to Blow the Mind, and you can find 657 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: us on Twitter as Blow the Mind, and you can 658 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: send us an email at Blow the Mind at Discovery 659 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: dot com. Be sure to check out our new video podcast, 660 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: Stuff from the Future. Join how Stuff Work staff as 661 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: we explore the most promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow.