Speaker 1: The idea is that people have many personalities and many personas,
Speaker 1: and that beauty is the ultimate expression of oneself. And
Speaker 1: the reason why beauty companies will never go out of
Speaker 1: business is that beauty is the one thing that is
Speaker 1: a universal aspiration. The definition of it may change from
Speaker 1: country to country, or culture to culture, or generation to generation.
Speaker 1: But I don't know anyone who thinks they look too good.
Speaker 2: John Dempsey's life is full of color in every way.
Speaker 2: During three decades in the beauty business, he helped turn
Speaker 2: mac Cosmetics into a global brand and launched the enormously
Speaker 2: successful tom Board Fragrance line. He is a passionate collector
Speaker 2: of art, furniture, objects, pets and friends. In fact, he
Speaker 2: told me he now has how many pets?
Speaker 1: I have nine dogs and two cats.
Speaker 2: Congratulations, Thank you. You're a man after my own heart.
Speaker 1: A lot of emotional support, unconditional, exactly or conditional, you
Speaker 1: might say.
Speaker 2: He designed a wildly eclectic, five story townhouse on the
Speaker 2: Upper east Side that is so full of the things
Speaker 2: he loves that he published a book showing them all
Speaker 2: behind the blue door. He joins me here today at
Speaker 2: Rockefeller Center to talk about that book and what it
Speaker 2: takes to build a business in multi billion dollar beauty industry.
Speaker 2: Welcome to my podcast, John Martha.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 2: You are looking extremely dapper today. He is dressed in
Speaker 2: a double breasted navy blue beautiful suit. What's the wool.
Speaker 1: It's a I think it's a light worsted role. It's
Speaker 1: from Trifonili in Paris.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's very beautiful. And he has a said this
Speaker 2: is a navy blue suit. Yes, a little bright navy.
Speaker 2: And then he has a brighter navy pocket handkerchief in
Speaker 2: his breast pocket on the left side, and he has
Speaker 2: a beautifully tailored pale blue button down shirt which is
Speaker 2: made by whom.
Speaker 1: This is made by?
Speaker 2: Oh, it is Sharve. I used to wear Sharvey's shirts.
Speaker 2: And what kind of watch did you wear?
Speaker 1: I'm wearing an automar royal oak that my father gave
Speaker 1: to me on my sixteenth birthday. I found that it
Speaker 1: was I wasn't really wearing them the way I used
Speaker 1: to wear them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've all come to that point now
Speaker 2: with our thought ubiquitous phone, right.
Speaker 1: I know. So it's just more of an ornament than
Speaker 1: it is anything.
Speaker 2: And also the reason we're talking is silly talk is
Speaker 2: because you know, John comes out of the high high
Speaker 2: high fashion world, the world of skincare and makeup and
Speaker 2: dealing with the finest designers and the most popular of brands.
Speaker 2: So thank you for coming here today and taking time.
Speaker 1: I'm prilled to be here.
Speaker 2: So I love your book on my friend and your friend.
Speaker 2: Of course, Douglas Friedman took all the pictures. This is
Speaker 2: a tome. This is a big, heavy book. It's a
Speaker 2: fifty oh wow. And it comes in a slipcase of leopard.
Speaker 2: Now what's the saying about leopard? When the going gets tough,
Speaker 2: the tough goal leopard. See, okay, that's it. And there
Speaker 2: is a lion of no leverriy you should have a
Speaker 2: leopard there?
Speaker 1: No, Well, that's the door knocker on the I know
Speaker 1: it's the front cover.
Speaker 2: Is the door with the door knocker of a beautiful,
Speaker 2: really mean looking lion with a big ring in his mouth.
Speaker 2: Is that a ruby there or an emerald?
Speaker 1: It's a fake one.
Speaker 2: It's fake, of of course.
Speaker 1: It's in New York City.
Speaker 2: And it was published by Von Dome Press, which makes
Speaker 2: very beautiful art books, and it is treated like an
Speaker 2: art book. Only I've never seen acid yellow and papers
Speaker 2: in my life before this book.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: Have you No, I've never seen it. Never it Steve Spress,
Speaker 2: it is, it is. And the bright red, well, there's
Speaker 2: end papers of bright red. And when you see the
Speaker 2: house that John built, which is really what year was
Speaker 2: that house built?
Speaker 1: Well, the house was built in eighteen ninety five, okay,
Speaker 1: and it was under many renovations. When I got it,
Speaker 1: it was in an eighties kIPS Bay innovation.
Speaker 2: Oh, so you bought a Kipps Bay house?
Speaker 1: Was a Kipps Bay house that needed to be purged
Speaker 1: of the nineteen eighties. Yes, there was a lot of
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties stuff elements, but it was the plumbing good
Speaker 1: or did you have to redo that too?
Speaker 2: Or suit to redo everything everything?
Speaker 1: When they did the eighties renovation, they never really went
Speaker 1: into the pipes.
Speaker 2: This is an East side of Manhattan townhouse, which looks
Speaker 2: like all the other townhouses on the street until you
Speaker 2: walk in the door and wow, you are absolutely shocked
Speaker 2: at the volume of stuff in the house. You are
Speaker 2: a real collector, John, I'm a collector. Yeah, you are
Speaker 2: a college.
Speaker 1: Some people call me a luxury order.
Speaker 2: Oh is that that is so great. But you, I mean,
Speaker 2: you grew up kind of in a normal home, normal
Speaker 2: and not normal.
Speaker 1: I guess you know that you never know I've learned
Speaker 1: anything in life. You don't judge a book by its coming.
Speaker 2: Describe your Describe your growing up.
Speaker 1: I grew up in Shaker Heights, Ohio, preppy town.
Speaker 2: My there wasn't there was no house that looked like
Speaker 2: this Shaker Heights, Ohio.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, it looked very It looked very much
Speaker 1: like the Rady bunch. And my father was in the
Speaker 1: steel business. And love is he still He's no longer
Speaker 1: with us. He passed away this past year.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: And my mother, who's still with us, was a painter.
Speaker 1: And I was lucky that growing up in this Midwestern city,
Speaker 1: I had very glamorous parents. And my mother's father was
Speaker 1: in the yarn business. And actually who was the father
Speaker 1: was the supplier of Harmon knitwear and I'll actually help
Speaker 1: launch Rudy Greenwright. So my mother and I had Rudy
Speaker 1: Garnrake knitted dresses. My mother, my mother would she didn't
Speaker 1: wear a mono bathing suit topless, but she would walk
Speaker 1: around in hot pants and these Rudy green right numbers
Speaker 1: in Prepstown and it was like the Harper Valley PTA.
Speaker 1: So it's great.
Speaker 2: But you like you like Bold, I would say, you
Speaker 2: like Bold, and you like lichten Scene, and you like Warhol,
Speaker 2: and you like what are some who are some of
Speaker 2: your other favorite artists?
Speaker 1: Well, I love pop culture. I'm inspired by every decade.
Speaker 1: If I'm inspired by music, fashion, photography, celebrities, design objects,
Speaker 1: I'm inspired by you.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Actually, I remember hunting down and two homes ago the
Speaker 1: special color gray paint that you had done. So I
Speaker 1: thought the gray color paint that you had done was
Speaker 1: the best tope gray at it I had ever seen.
Speaker 2: Somebody just asked me the other day for a can
Speaker 2: of my paint. Isn't that great? That's a big compliment
Speaker 2: because he wants to paint his houses that color. And
Speaker 2: when I moved to Bedford, there were so many outbuildings
Speaker 2: that I thought, gosh, if I don't use a cohesive color.
Speaker 1: That's where I saw it everywhere, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And everywhere it all has to be cohesive. And it worked.
Speaker 2: It worked. And I got that color from a piece
Speaker 2: of Italian stationery. I had gotten a little box of
Speaker 2: stationary in Florence it's one of those beautiful, old, old
Speaker 2: stationary stores, and that color gray just spoke to me,
Speaker 2: and I had it matched to paint and it worked.
Speaker 1: I left that well. Actually, that that sort of dovetails
Speaker 1: into the inspiration of my color palette in my book,
Speaker 1: because if you actually go to not this page, not
Speaker 1: this page. So on this double spread on the left
Speaker 1: hand side of the page is a photograph of Bridget Bardeaux,
Speaker 1: a publicity still that I bought when I was eighteen
Speaker 1: years old in the flea market in Paris, and.
Speaker 2: All men were madly in love with Bridget Bardeux.
Speaker 1: Yes, and that was the first thing I ever bought.
Speaker 1: And on the right side of the page is a
Speaker 1: pair of Christian Lubhutan boots that my friend, model suzannevon Ashinger,
Speaker 1: who is John Galliano's muse, was wearing. And I was
Speaker 1: out to dinner with her in Paris, and when I
Speaker 1: saw her boots, I was trying to determine, like what
Speaker 1: I was going to do with the house. I said,
Speaker 1: you have to give me your shoes. She said what
Speaker 1: I said, No, you have to give me your shoes.
Speaker 1: Idea is beautiful boots. This color combination of the navy
Speaker 1: and the Evecline blue and the baby blue and the gold,
Speaker 1: the pink and the red. And I went to start
Speaker 1: carpets into the archives of David Hicks, and all the
Speaker 1: carpets that we've throughout the house carried the.
Speaker 2: Colors they were in that color. Isn't that crazy? It's
Speaker 2: a crazy story. Well, you are unique and the house
Speaker 2: is such a unique place. And the trouble with seeing
Speaker 2: the house is that John is a very amazing party thrower,
Speaker 2: and every time you go to his house it is
Speaker 2: so packed that I don't think I've gotten past got
Speaker 2: the first floor, second floor. I tried to get up
Speaker 2: to the next floor, and I never got up there yet,
Speaker 2: so I have to come back. Imitation's always open, Okay,
Speaker 2: But the whole book is so who designed the book.
Speaker 1: The book was designed by Elisee Sozan, who's an art
Speaker 1: director who works with Von Doom Press. She's based in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles. But as you said, it really was the
Speaker 1: collaboration with our dear friend Douglas Friedman. The house had
Speaker 1: been photographed in a couple of interior design magazines and
Speaker 1: he said to me, this doesn't capture what you're about
Speaker 1: or what this house is about because I want to
Speaker 1: do it my way and I believe I was.
Speaker 2: And he talked about it quite a bit while he
Speaker 2: was doing.
Speaker 1: It, and I told him you could do whatever he
Speaker 1: wanted to do and I would give no direction. And
Speaker 1: we hired Mika Tanhae who is an amazing young stylist
Speaker 1: from Amsterdam, and Alina Cho, our close friend, wrote the
Speaker 1: book and it became sort of a project of introspection
Speaker 1: and at the same time diving deep into where I
Speaker 1: came from.
Speaker 2: Whose eye is this ie that I is from? Rankin
Speaker 2: the photographer. I mean, really and truly, when you get
Speaker 2: your hands on a copy of this book, and it's
Speaker 2: available at Amazon.
Speaker 1: Amazon dot Com, art bookstores, art bookstores, find and Noble
Speaker 1: find bookstores everywhere, yeap, when you get.
Speaker 2: Your hands on this book, you will be incredibly amazed
Speaker 2: at the the volume of things that John has collected
Speaker 2: and the crazy artistry with which you display it. I mean,
Speaker 2: it really is. It is hard to find a seat
Speaker 2: in your house. I know, it's very hard. Where do
Speaker 2: the cats? Where do those cats live?
Speaker 1: Two cats live on the fifth floor because they hate
Speaker 1: the golden doodles, Oh golden doodles. Keep trying to eat
Speaker 1: the cats. So it's a it's a it's actually.
Speaker 2: And they're not allowed up there. They're both.
Speaker 1: You would think in a home with so much stuff,
Speaker 1: having a teenage daughter and nine dogs and two cats,
Speaker 1: that nothing ever gets broken.
Speaker 2: Does your daughter live in this house half the time?
Speaker 2: Yet she does? A lucky girl, she must love it.
Speaker 1: The book was really a personal expression on my philosophy,
Speaker 1: on what I've learned in life and the experiences I've had,
Speaker 1: the people I've met, the things that I've seen. And
Speaker 1: the overarching theme is that you should be you, and
Speaker 1: you should live your life with empathy and kindness, but
Speaker 1: boldly and expressively. It doesn't matter how much money you have,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter where you're from. Anybody can be their
Speaker 1: authentic self and put themselves out there in a unique way.
Speaker 2: The book is called Behind the Blue Door, and that's
Speaker 2: the color, a bright, bright, beautiful blue. That is the
Speaker 2: color that he has painted his front door with the
Speaker 2: lion knocker. And he's joining me today to talk about
Speaker 2: the book, about what it takes to build this business
Speaker 2: and live in New York City in a very personal way. Yes,
Speaker 2: so there's been a big explosion. John in the beauty
Speaker 2: space for sure, more companies, more product categories, more celebrity
Speaker 2: entrance into the world of skincare and makeup, more SKUs altogether.
Speaker 2: What do you attribute to this growth?
Speaker 1: To many things. Actually, this wave is enabled by the
Speaker 1: new communication platforms. So when you think about the evolution
Speaker 1: of beauty post war after World War Two, in the fifties,
Speaker 1: you had the opening up of malls, You had the
Speaker 1: transition from radio which was sponsored by Pond's Cold Cream
Speaker 1: or whatever the case may be. To you arrived at
Speaker 1: the game shows and Revlon was the sponsor of the
Speaker 1: sixty four thousand dollars question which when did you work
Speaker 1: for Revlin? I worked for Revlin in the early eighties.
Speaker 1: But I'm just from an historical perspective.
Speaker 2: I missed you, y, I just made I was on
Speaker 2: the board.
Speaker 1: I did not know that.
Speaker 2: Oh. I was on the board in the nineties and
Speaker 2: that was the most fun board I have ever sat on.
Speaker 1: Lower fun people.
Speaker 2: But what happened with Revlin? Because I knew Revlon in
Speaker 2: the seventies.
Speaker 1: Revlon was a great company, and Charles Revson was a
Speaker 1: visionary and he was passionate. And I still think it's
Speaker 1: a great brand name. I still think they have great
Speaker 1: products with great performance. I think somehow it got lost
Speaker 1: chang It didn't understand the change in the demographics, and
Speaker 1: it didn't understand the change in the way that media
Speaker 1: and aspiration works. So in my little story that I
Speaker 1: started from the fifties with the shopping malls and game shows,
Speaker 1: in the sixties with broadcast television and the importance of
Speaker 1: glossy magazines and beauty editors and fashion editors and television
Speaker 1: and people talking on the Today Show like Bobby Brown,
Speaker 1: and so you had all these experts that built their
Speaker 1: business up through the local newspaper and market town market marketing.
Speaker 1: But every every town in America or in the world
Speaker 1: had a local specialty store, a local magazine, a local
Speaker 1: beauty editor, a local TV station, a local radio station,
Speaker 1: and the business was built.
Speaker 2: Bit by bit, community by community.
Speaker 1: The revolution that came first was cable, where you could
Speaker 1: start to narrowcast and target an audience. And when MTV
Speaker 1: came on, the infomercials, Yes, infomercials and new ways of
Speaker 1: and home shopping, and MTV came on board, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, music was about the video and how
Speaker 1: you told the story about the video, and if you
Speaker 1: didn't have the video on MTV, you didn't sell the music.
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, the media started mattering more,
Speaker 1: and the content started mattering more, not just the paid
Speaker 1: promotional element. And during the nineties with HSN and QVC,
Speaker 1: there was this boom that took place with people actually
Speaker 1: taking the show on the airwaves and going direct to
Speaker 1: people's homes. And at the same time, the most important
Speaker 1: change in our lifetime is the year of nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 1: because pre nineteen ninety eight, there was no Internet.
Speaker 2: It was accessible to everybody's home very well. There was
Speaker 2: no Google, there was no sarch Board, there was no search.
Speaker 1: There there was no Amazon, there was no there were
Speaker 1: no blogs, there was no Wikipedia.
Speaker 2: I mean, so the early does it seemed like yesterday?
Speaker 1: It seems like yesterday, yes, And you used to dial
Speaker 1: it up on your phone and have that funny noise
Speaker 1: no going. But that was the first or the beginning
Speaker 1: of the democratization of access to content and information and
Speaker 1: search and understanding about brands and going places that you
Speaker 1: never had to leave your house. The first seismic change
Speaker 1: came with Facebook. First of all, First was MySpace, then Facebook,
Speaker 1: and then.
Speaker 2: My space was Rupert Murdock race then came Mark Zuckerberg,
Speaker 2: and with Facebook.
Speaker 1: And then Instagram and YouTube, with Google and Google Search
Speaker 1: and Yahoo and all these platforms. And what started happening
Speaker 1: was the creators or the users actually became the media channels,
Speaker 1: and people that had up per sana or could make
Speaker 1: a connection with an audience all of a sudden became
Speaker 1: stars and they started doing how to videos and tutorials
Speaker 1: and doing crazy stories and crazy content. And that coupled
Speaker 1: with the emergence of Alta and Sophara in the United
Speaker 1: States and these sort of you know, category killer beauty
Speaker 1: outlets all of a sudden cause gave an opportunity for
Speaker 1: generations of brands to be Some brands that had been
Speaker 1: around for a long time. Anastasia became an overnight success
Speaker 1: story after many years in the business because of Instagram,
Speaker 1: and then that evolution got turbo charged with the arrival
Speaker 1: of TikTok and Snapchat. And the thing is that the
Speaker 1: beauty business, like the film business or the music business,
Speaker 1: had a lot of gatekeepers. So unless you could get
Speaker 1: the right slotting in terms of presentation in the store
Speaker 1: or the right counter.
Speaker 2: You're talking about the companies, the manufacturers themselves, the.
Speaker 1: Manufacturers themselves, and the retailers and the publishers. There was
Speaker 1: a system that was an ecosystem of mutual admiration and
Speaker 1: economics that created the aspiration and the outlets to buy
Speaker 1: brands and create products. And when you think back of
Speaker 1: the great beauty entrepreneurs of the fifties, sixties, and seventies,
Speaker 1: whether it was Lena Rubenstein, Elizabeth Arden, Charles Revson, Este Laud,
Speaker 1: I mean, these women and men in today's world would
Speaker 1: have been considered to be influencers. They had social media,
Speaker 1: yet their social media was on television or in glossy
Speaker 1: magazines or in a lifestyle dimension. So they were the
Speaker 1: first first evolution of social media or social beings, but
Speaker 1: bringing together a heritage or a lifestyle or a story.
Speaker 1: The thing about Instagram and more so TikTok was that
Speaker 1: anyone with a good idea can sell it, can sell something,
Speaker 1: or become a star over an So there no longer
Speaker 1: was a studio system. There no longer was a gatekeeper.
Speaker 1: Now there's an algorithm that actually forces you actually to
Speaker 1: play ball with the platforms exactly.
Speaker 2: But you set up an iPhone on a little stand
Speaker 2: in your bathroom and you put on a pretty circle
Speaker 2: light around your face, you put on mascara, you can
Speaker 2: sell it.
Speaker 1: A young girl from Tampa, Florida can go from being
Speaker 1: a beauty advisor in a department store to having twenty
Speaker 1: five million followers and having our own brand or being
Speaker 1: a channel to sell products. So this democratization of content
Speaker 1: and the ability of people to connect with content that
Speaker 1: they relate to opened up huge opportunities for people to
Speaker 1: express themselves and to actually start to create products and
Speaker 1: to create brands. And so you have the success of
Speaker 1: Chris Jenner's entire ecosystem of children.
Speaker 2: You know there, You imagine having five daughters like that
Speaker 2: that create the product that we all devour.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty amazing when you think that there are
Speaker 1: probably more eyeballs on those social media channels of her
Speaker 1: family than in the three legacy television networks of this country.
Speaker 1: But that could not have happened. So the change in
Speaker 1: media and the change in people's expectations about beauty and
Speaker 1: self expression opened up a much wider canvas to pain
Speaker 1: because in the earlier years, there was sort of a
Speaker 1: standardized way that you were supposed to look. There was
Speaker 1: a universal code or standard of beauty that was imposed
Speaker 1: on men and women, and the opportunity to be whoever
Speaker 1: you wanted to be was less free, And also the
Speaker 1: concept that being whoever you wanted to be might depend
Speaker 1: on the hour of the day. And the fact of
Speaker 1: the matter is you may be glamorous one moment and
Speaker 1: effortless the next, and bare face the next and hampering
Speaker 1: yourself in the with Martha Stewart products. But the idea
Speaker 1: is that there are people have many personalities and many personas,
Speaker 1: and that beauty is the ultimate expression of oneself. And
Speaker 1: the reason why beauty companies will never go out of
Speaker 1: business is that beauty is the one thing that is
Speaker 1: a universal aspiration. The definition of it may change from
Speaker 1: country to country, or culture to culture, or generation to generation.
Speaker 1: But I don't know anyone who thinks they look too good.
Speaker 1: I don't know anybody who doesn't want to feel good
Speaker 1: in their skin and look better and look better or
Speaker 1: feel better about themselves or project a better self. And
Speaker 1: that eternal quest to do better and be better fears fees.
Speaker 2: Is fed by the beauty industry.
Speaker 1: It's fed by the beauty industry and the media empire
Speaker 1: and everything else. That goes behind it because it's a
Speaker 1: universal quest.
Speaker 2: So the celebrity beauty brands that have evolved over just
Speaker 2: the last few years, it's not a long time that
Speaker 2: except for the great econs like Helena Rubinstein and Essay Laughter,
Speaker 2: who were the most successful of these new celebrity start to.
Speaker 1: Put it in perspective, the celebrity beauty phenomenon. After it
Speaker 1: went from the founders or the creators of these brands
Speaker 1: who were beauty experts, you had the celebrity action actually
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies and eighties in Fragrance.
Speaker 2: Remember Ralph l my brother in law, did Ralph Lauren Perfume,
Speaker 2: I remember? Or George Friedman, George Friedman, goodness, yeah, he
Speaker 2: did Poloma Picasso.
Speaker 1: I did.
Speaker 2: I did the opening night party, the big party at
Speaker 2: the UH At that party, oh you were, yes. And
Speaker 2: it was up on Fifth Avenue in that beautiful mansion
Speaker 2: across from the Cooper Hewitt.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: And I did all the food, and I did all
Speaker 2: those red table claws and it was fabulous, and Paloma
Speaker 2: was there.
Speaker 1: But the idea of a celebrity that was Elizabeth Taylor
Speaker 1: White Diamonds, which this to this very day still ranks
Speaker 1: in the top twenty five to thirty frames in this country.
Speaker 1: Nice So celebrity became very, very important in the fragrance business,
Speaker 1: and it was one of the main drivers of QVC
Speaker 1: and HSN, which created new celebrities and new celebrities finding
Speaker 1: a new life on TV. Right. Ernest Borgnine's wife Tova
Speaker 1: created a fragrance that sold hundreds of millions of dollars.
Speaker 1: Fred Hayman and Gail created Georgia of Beverly Hills in
Speaker 1: the Scruple.
Speaker 2: Years, So I remember when that was launched.
Speaker 1: So these were like bigger than life ideas. Today we
Speaker 1: have a lot of celebrities in life. Go back to Georgio.
Speaker 1: What made that so popular? It was that pretty woman period.
Speaker 1: It was rodeo drive, It was over the top Beverly Hills,
Speaker 1: It was unabashed glamour. It was access into a club
Speaker 1: that maybe you couldn't go into, but you could buy
Speaker 1: a piece of the fragrance.
Speaker 2: Who did the advertising for that, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Who did the advertising, but it was it was a
Speaker 1: firminiche fragrance and it was the bright yellow and white
Speaker 1: awning and it had the crest and they were the
Speaker 1: first people to use the scent strip.
Speaker 2: It was the first time in magazines.
Speaker 1: In magazines and that fragrance was during a period in
Speaker 1: the eighties where the fragrance arrived before you did. So
Speaker 1: it was about loud, unabashed, old, bold, fragrant expressions. And
Speaker 1: today now you have a lot of celebrity brands. There
Speaker 1: are some that carry a celebrity's name and others that
Speaker 1: are backed by celebrities with varying degrees of success, but
Speaker 1: ones that I would say have hit it out of
Speaker 1: the ballpark Rihanna Infenti, which has been an extraordinary success
Speaker 1: and changed the whole framing of what diversity represents. Selena
Speaker 1: Gomez right now with Rare beauty.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and she's coming out with uh I just
Speaker 2: read something today she's doing not makeup, but is it
Speaker 2: her fragrance.
Speaker 1: She has Fragrance makeup skincare. She is one of the
Speaker 1: fastest growing brands.
Speaker 2: And she's such a cute girl. She's an amazing she's
Speaker 2: so cute, she's so great in her TV with Steve Martin.
Speaker 2: I love that show. The Building.
Speaker 1: Yes, you have Hailey Beaver as a great brand called Road.
Speaker 1: Right now, you have designers have become celebrities, and celebrities
Speaker 1: have become designers. Mary Kate and Ashley to the row,
Speaker 1: I mean, so you have a lot Actually, Lady Gaga,
Speaker 1: she has a scent, but she actually is a beauty line.
Speaker 1: And the first iteration was less successful, but the second
Speaker 1: iteration of house Labs h A U S Labs, which
Speaker 1: is all based on complexion with a bold sort of eye,
Speaker 1: is incredibly successful. So you so celebrities who know a
Speaker 1: lot about what it takes to look good and the
Speaker 1: effort that goes into it and the professional glam squad
Speaker 1: or beauty to Tom Ford was an amazing example of
Speaker 1: a man who was a designer, a man who had
Speaker 1: a vision and ideal, who also was so good looking,
Speaker 1: so appealing, and had such star power himself that he
Speaker 1: was a celebrity and he ticked all the boxes.
Speaker 2: And his and his makeup was beautiful.
Speaker 1: Makeup spectacular of the spectacular, and he is listen. He
Speaker 1: was the first successful designer brand of the two thousands
Speaker 1: of the millennium. Before that, there were a lot of
Speaker 1: designers that tried to do beauty brands, including Ralpha ren
Speaker 1: the Outside of Fragrance that failed, but it was and now.
Speaker 2: I cannot see Ralph and makeup. But Tom there makeup,
Speaker 2: I know, but I can't see him in it. But
Speaker 2: you can see Tom Ford in it, Yes, and he
Speaker 2: wore it, and he advertised himself in it for sure,
Speaker 2: and he advertises fragrances on him.
Speaker 1: He was unbelievable star power there. You know, you can't
Speaker 1: take away the effect of Kim and Kylie. They they've
Speaker 1: done extraordinary things. And to look at the influence of
Speaker 1: a Sofia Richie right now, or to look at the
Speaker 1: younger generation. So these this younger generation of pop stars
Speaker 1: and of designers and influencers are creative, and there's been
Speaker 1: a mashup of creative product developers, suppliers and great merchants
Speaker 1: in the stores that are discovering new ways of reaching
Speaker 1: new customers with new ideas. Some of them may not
Speaker 1: be new to you and I, but there are generations
Speaker 1: that have never seen it before.
Speaker 2: Now, of all the celebrity brands, I hate to pinpoint,
Speaker 2: but I love to know of all the celebrity brands
Speaker 2: that and the icons that you've worked with, who stands
Speaker 2: out as like the most iconic to you?
Speaker 1: Well, I've worked with a lot of celebrities in brands.
Speaker 1: I came from a school of thought that what was
Speaker 1: most important was that the brand be the star, and
Speaker 1: that the celebrity be in the context of the persona
Speaker 1: or the values of what the brand was about. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I think it gets a bit murky when you have
Speaker 1: a very a very strong celebrity and a very strong brand,
Speaker 1: and there's a bit of a confusion of where does
Speaker 1: one start and what is one one end. But I
Speaker 1: will tell you that in my work at MAC and
Speaker 1: my Viva Glam campaigns over the years that I did
Speaker 1: with James gajor I work I worked with every pop
Speaker 1: star from Rue Paul and Katie Lang to Rihanna to
Speaker 1: Fergie to Elton John to Ariana Grande to Mary J.
Speaker 1: Brige and Little Kim and the list goes on and
Speaker 1: on and on and on and on and on and
Speaker 1: on and Lady Gaga and and I got to meet
Speaker 1: a lot of these people before they were famous, and
Speaker 1: I understood the power of community and what celebrity is
Speaker 1: really about, which is a testament of the power of
Speaker 1: Martha Stewart. Is the community that you activate connect with
Speaker 1: is your power and the ability to connect to an audience,
Speaker 1: and even if the audience is relatively small for some people,
Speaker 1: connecting with a small audience in a big way is
Speaker 1: sometimes more powerful than trying to connect with a big
Speaker 1: audience in a small way. And that's the change. That's
Speaker 1: the change that we're seeing in the world right now.
Speaker 1: So I love I've loved working with all those celebrities.
Speaker 1: I loved working with with with Tom Ford. I had
Speaker 1: a great time at es Day Lauder, working with Aaron
Speaker 1: at the same time working with Gwyneth Paltrow.
Speaker 2: I mean, so those were fun times. What's the biggest
Speaker 2: makeup brand right now in terms of volume? Because it
Speaker 2: is kind of confusing, there's there's so many, I think,
Speaker 2: you know, you know the numbers.
Speaker 1: It depends how you measure the market. I would say
Speaker 1: that between.
Speaker 2: Mac which is owned by sta Laughder, and Charlotte Tilbury,
Speaker 2: which is owned by Pooche.
Speaker 1: Charlotte Tilbury is actually become in under fifteen years one
Speaker 1: of the top three beauty brands.
Speaker 2: What's the what's the third one?
Speaker 1: I would say that it's an ever changing universe, right
Speaker 1: it was fenty at one point, whereas is up there
Speaker 1: right now. And then of course you have the Diors,
Speaker 1: the Chanel's, the Saint Laurents, the Georgia Armani's, you have
Speaker 1: the Amazing. You know, you have these these incredible, great
Speaker 1: low cost brands like Elf and you know, Nicks and
Speaker 1: things that are very price point accessible. You have category killers.
Speaker 1: So people who do like one thing really will like
Speaker 1: people who get Elephant the Trunk, Elephant who did amazing.
Speaker 1: You know, anti aging products that somehow teenagers are obsessed
Speaker 1: with right now, you know, smash Box.
Speaker 2: Day, like they're getting old fast whatever.
Speaker 1: Everybody. To be successful, you need to have a product
Speaker 1: that people love, that's good, that people come back and
Speaker 1: buy over and over and over again.
Speaker 2: Charlotte Tilbury, for example, it's not to me, it's not
Speaker 2: a terribly well known brand, and yet you say it's
Speaker 2: number two. It is very good product.
Speaker 1: She's probably not as well known because she's under distributed.
Speaker 1: She basically has been in Nordstrom, Bloomingdale's and Sophara. She
Speaker 1: just entered into alt in a big way. But I
Speaker 1: will tell you I.
Speaker 2: Don't even know who she is, but I like her stuff.
Speaker 1: You will love her. She is a over the top,
Speaker 1: glamorous redhead. She's a professional makeup artist that I worked
Speaker 1: with when I was working on Mac. We sponsor Charlotte
Speaker 1: as backstage and.
Speaker 2: Does anybody own her? Knowroach? What you said?
Speaker 1: Barcelona? And she actually worked with Tom Ford in the
Speaker 1: origination of the original Tom Ford makeup brand and started
Speaker 1: her own brand and she is She's a media star.
Speaker 2: So what happened to Laura Mercier?
Speaker 1: Laura Mercy still matters. Bobby Brown, her legacy brand still matters.
Speaker 1: Yet Jones Road, Bobby's new brand matters a lot because
Speaker 1: she's speaking to an audience over fifty five years old
Speaker 1: that people forgot and the fact that she speaks to
Speaker 1: them with great products in a straight up fashion is
Speaker 1: very much well appreciated.
Speaker 2: So and she has some new stuff is actually very interesting.
Speaker 1: Very very very interesting. But but but what's what's interesting
Speaker 1: is there's root. There's a seat at the table for
Speaker 1: everyone now because the market has become it's not too crowded.
Speaker 1: Some of this, some of the tables have gotten a
Speaker 1: bit crowded, and some of the tables will probably thin
Speaker 1: out a bit. But cream rises to the top, and
Speaker 1: great products and great brands and great ideas stand the
Speaker 1: test of time. Some things may be a fad or
Speaker 1: maybe fleeting. How big is the beauty industry. Oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: it's tens of billions of dollars.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's bigger than the automotive industry.
Speaker 1: I don't know on a unit basis, yes, but after all,
Speaker 1: twenty one dollars lipstick and I thought eighty five thousand
Speaker 1: dollars tesla. There's a lot of lipsticks that go in
Speaker 1: between that. But I would I will say that consumption
Speaker 1: of lipstick, mascara, eyeshadow, and facial moisturizers and cleansers are
Speaker 1: the most commonly used products for women around the world.
Speaker 1: And it's and it's never ending. And as each society
Speaker 1: becomes more sophisticated and you have emerging middle classes, there
Speaker 1: are billions of people ready to consume products and wanting
Speaker 1: to improve their status in life.
Speaker 2: And I have a twelve well she's now thirteen year
Speaker 2: old granddaughter who did beauty videos that were very professional
Speaker 2: and very beautiful starting at age ten.
Speaker 1: I know my daughter does the same.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And they filmed themselves doing all kinds of extraordinary
Speaker 2: eye makeups and things. And it's not like she's spending
Speaker 2: all her time. She's a straight A student. It's not
Speaker 2: like she's wasting her time. You know my mother would
Speaker 2: have said, put the makeup away, dear, and study, but
Speaker 2: she does. She manages to find time to do it all.
Speaker 2: But they are fascinated. But if she ever read a magazine,
Speaker 2: read a magazine, she reads books.
Speaker 1: I think what you and I have in common being
Speaker 1: north of thirty, how about that, yees nor to thirty
Speaker 1: years old, is having young people in our lives.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so important.
Speaker 1: It's so important because in judge it keeps you current
Speaker 1: because the framing of the culture and the framing of
Speaker 1: how people consume and aspire and want, so it's curious.
Speaker 2: It's very curious. And you, you in business and I
Speaker 2: in business, have to know who is the consumer who
Speaker 2: is going to buy the products that you are working on?
Speaker 1: Right, It's so important, I mean, and ultimately we've gone
Speaker 1: from a dictated media, brand dictated marketplace to a consumer
Speaker 1: powered marketplace. The consumer actually votes. It's like being on
Speaker 1: the voice every minute.
Speaker 2: I always quote Stu Leonard, you know his quote rule
Speaker 2: number one. The customer is always right. Rule number two.
Speaker 2: If the customer is wrong, see rule number one. Absolutely
Speaker 2: and they're and they do. They set the tone. They
Speaker 2: set the tone there, it's their want and their need
Speaker 2: that you have to fill right, absolutely, and I applaud
Speaker 2: you because you you have kept on top of that
Speaker 2: your entire career, providing us with really spectacular products. I've tried.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have to tell you it's hard to
Speaker 1: keep up and everything that goes around.
Speaker 2: How important is science in skincare? Yeah? Very important, all important.
Speaker 1: Actually, you have so many different trends going on in
Speaker 1: the beauty business right now. You have the whole clean, beauty, vegan, natural,
Speaker 1: cruelty free zone. You have people who.
Speaker 2: A Anderson not wearing makeup ever again, ever again. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, actually I saw her some makeup on the other day.
Speaker 1: But but good, she's being hypocritical. No, no, she's being
Speaker 1: Pamela Anderson. Okay, she's being surprising and unexpected, which but
Speaker 1: she looks good, she looks fantastic.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We live in a world that is also powered by
Speaker 1: the ability to use experts dermatologists, estheticians.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how important doctors? How important are the dermatologists now?
Speaker 2: Very beauty.
Speaker 1: Well, they're very important in terms of people's personal maintenance
Speaker 1: and how they project themselves. Going to a plastic surgeon
Speaker 1: or going to a dermatologist was in the purview of
Speaker 1: only the very privileged and the very rich. Now it's
Speaker 1: available to everyone and at all levels of society, and
Speaker 1: people use beauty services is part of their health and
Speaker 1: beauty routine. There are customers that want medical grade products.
Speaker 1: They want products that they want science and ingredients that
Speaker 1: are going to give them dramatic effect.
Speaker 2: Some of those products have sort of disappeared from the marketplace,
Speaker 2: so I don't see them as often. Maybe I'm just
Speaker 2: not aware, but there were a couple of dermatologists who
Speaker 2: had a lot of products out a few years ago,
Speaker 2: selling them very well on QVC. And now you see
Speaker 2: less of that and more celebrity you do.
Speaker 1: But you see a re emergence of doctors again. So
Speaker 1: it's actually.
Speaker 2: Who are the best best, who has the best products
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 1: And it's so hard to say. I mean, there's so
Speaker 1: many and there's so many great products. I mean, I
Speaker 1: myself it's not a medical just an aestheticians brand called
Speaker 1: the Algers. I mean I like that. I'm obsessed by it.
Speaker 1: I love MBR. I think that Lamaire makes great products.
Speaker 1: I think Barbara Sturm makes great products. The original formulations
Speaker 1: of Clinique designed by doctor orange Shrike.
Speaker 2: Still he was my original dermatolog I love Doctor orange Shrike.
Speaker 2: But you know, do they still get a royalty? Does
Speaker 2: the family get a royalty?
Speaker 1: And there's some sort of financial project?
Speaker 2: I hope, so I hate he was so good, but he.
Speaker 1: Understood the power of exfiliation. And there are so many
Speaker 1: brands and so many interesting brands. And by the way,
Speaker 1: as you travel around the world, because I'm traveling a
Speaker 1: lot around the world these days and spending a lot
Speaker 1: of time in Europe and a lot of time in
Speaker 1: India and Korea, uh, and you see the most unbelievable
Speaker 1: formulas and the most unbelievable packaging and the most unbelievable.
Speaker 2: Coatia India more than others.
Speaker 1: Korea is one of the epicenters of creativity right now.
Speaker 1: You see an incredible innovation in complexion and wait, like Tatcha.
Speaker 2: Do you know Tacha? Tacha is a great brand. I
Speaker 2: love some of those products, the great products.
Speaker 1: You see amazing products coming out of Japan, you see
Speaker 1: products coming out of China. I think it's one of
Speaker 1: the most beautiful brands on the market. I think their
Speaker 1: their formulations are second to none. So I respect any
Speaker 1: brand that ethically brings product to market that connects with
Speaker 1: a consumer, that makes people feel good, and we all
Speaker 1: make our own personal choices.
Speaker 2: Does it have to cost so much?
Speaker 1: No, there are amazing products that you can buy at
Speaker 1: CVS Dwayne Reid really between sarah v or the Derma
Speaker 1: brands like laroche Pose or Rock or Nutrient Gena. There
Speaker 1: there are fabulous, fabulous options and access points.
Speaker 2: So you have to sort of experiment and try what
Speaker 2: you think works the best on your own skin.
Speaker 1: That's basically there's a bit of do you.
Speaker 2: Have to read the fine print?
Speaker 1: I can't read the fight print anymore, you see, I don't.
Speaker 2: But it's but it's crazy the amount of fine print
Speaker 2: and every single product is so extensive.
Speaker 1: It's hard. The regulatory environment requires a lot of transparency
Speaker 1: relative ingredients and what's actually in the products, and what
Speaker 1: they say and what they say today it's a little
Speaker 1: bit more restrictive than what they used to say before
Speaker 1: because these things are regulated quite stringently.
Speaker 2: What are people tired of in the beauty space.
Speaker 1: We've been living in a period of time were effortless,
Speaker 1: no makeup. Makeup was the standard of beauty around the world.
Speaker 1: It will always be there. And it takes a lot
Speaker 1: of makeup to look like you're not wearing any makeup indeed.
Speaker 1: But the whole notion of the Mafia wife look, the
Speaker 1: fact that people want to look like Dynasty with you know,
Speaker 1: you know, it looked like John Collins.
Speaker 2: So everybody wants eyelashes.
Speaker 1: So you have this, this this trend culture that all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, people want to be glamorous again. People
Speaker 1: want to have gorgeous makeup looks, people want to wear
Speaker 1: eyelash extensions. I mean, the eyelash extension thing is insane.
Speaker 2: It is, it really is. I mean, my favorite line,
Speaker 2: eyebrows shapers get like three hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: Now, my favorite line was when I was working in
Speaker 1: the industry, we were talking about my friend Anastasia's success
Speaker 1: and someone in the room said, well, you know, Anastasia
Speaker 1: is the girl next door and I looked at them,
Speaker 1: I said, I said, well, who do.
Speaker 2: You live next door to?
Speaker 1: And then I went back to Cleveland and I went
Speaker 1: to the grocery store and I saw the girl at
Speaker 1: the register was or contoured cheeks like Kim Cart and
Speaker 1: her eyelash extensions, and.
Speaker 2: There did Brown.
Speaker 1: I thought like, oh my god, Metastasia is the girl
Speaker 1: next door. He is, Yeah, we live in trends, trends
Speaker 1: coming to go. We were in a huge eyeshadow palette
Speaker 1: cycle about four or five years ago. The user rate
Speaker 1: of an eyeshadow palate palette is about ten years. They've
Speaker 1: re emerged again, but you know, it's it's a bit cyclical.
Speaker 1: I mean, there is a skinnification taking place with people
Speaker 1: wanting more hybrids. So makeup that does things that are
Speaker 1: good for you and things that do good for you
Speaker 1: that give you makeup effect. Because everybody wants instantaneous results
Speaker 1: and sometimes it takes a lot of care to get
Speaker 1: long term results, but they want they want to see
Speaker 1: the money right away.
Speaker 2: What advice do you have for aspiring beauty founders.
Speaker 1: My advice is Gypsy rose Lea said it best. They
Speaker 1: have to have a gimmick, and I'd say it in
Speaker 1: a very uplifting, nice way, not in a way that
Speaker 1: people would take a look at it as being tricky.
Speaker 1: You need to have an angle, you have a strong
Speaker 1: point of view. You have to stand for something. You'd
Speaker 1: have a product that stands and performs at some level
Speaker 1: that speaks to an audience that you actually have permission
Speaker 1: or the authenticity to speak to because people today can
Speaker 1: sniff out when something's not real, and that's why things
Speaker 1: some things fade so fast, they're fads.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've seen that in the last ten years.
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of makeup. The lines come and go.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of ones that should have gone,
Speaker 1: and some that are quite sad to see go. Every
Speaker 1: single time I see a great brand that was created
Speaker 1: by an entrepreneur or somebody who had great passion go away,
Speaker 1: it's like a little bit of myself dies. I mean,
Speaker 1: I understand how much people put themselves forward. They mortgage
Speaker 1: their homes, they take their life savings. I mean so
Speaker 1: much respect for the hard working entrepreneurs. And honestly, the
Speaker 1: celebrities didn't just become celebrities without working hard either. Oh no,
Speaker 1: they were so so people, you know, don't give the respect.
Speaker 1: What does the celebrity know about makeup and skincare? I
Speaker 1: hell of a lot.
Speaker 2: They wear it every day and they.
Speaker 1: Do their own makeup, and they know more about light
Speaker 1: than maybe the best makeup artists in the world. So
Speaker 1: it depends what your angle is.
Speaker 2: Well, you've always been known for having the your finger
Speaker 2: on the pulse of where people are, of pop culture.
Speaker 2: Your book shows that of music, of fashion trends. How
Speaker 2: has it changed as you get older? Not that he's
Speaker 2: very old. I don't know. I have no idea. I
Speaker 2: have no idea. How old you are? How old are you?
Speaker 1: I am sixty eight years old.
Speaker 2: Oh you're young, okay, but old enough, old enough to
Speaker 2: have an AARP card. So that's which I know's But
Speaker 2: that's such a great organization.
Speaker 1: It is a great organization.
Speaker 2: That is an organizations get your medical that's right, and
Speaker 2: you have to also pay attention to them because they
Speaker 2: have a lot of money.
Speaker 1: I believe that everybody should live their best life and
Speaker 1: their best age every day, every day the way they
Speaker 1: want to and not being judged for it. And so
Speaker 1: I think the ability to be more expansive and inclusive
Speaker 1: and diverse and a motive. Actually the trend is to
Speaker 1: be more individualistic and less conformist, and I think that
Speaker 1: that's exciting. It's incredibly creative. It's a great period of
Speaker 1: time to be alive.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about some things we have in common. You
Speaker 2: have the abundant Pitt family, as I do.
Speaker 1: I have a very big takes.
Speaker 2: Care of your dogs in the daytime when you're at work.
Speaker 1: I have a I have a housekeeper, and I have
Speaker 1: somebody that comes in and watch the dogs in a pack.
Speaker 1: They go in groups. Okay, they go in groups. Sounds
Speaker 1: like I'm I should become the global spokesperson for Nature's miracle. Actually,
Speaker 1: I think I was inspired by your French bulldogs to
Speaker 1: get a French bulldog.
Speaker 2: Originally, there's so I think I am one of I
Speaker 2: think I'm one of the.
Speaker 1: You're one of the first. You were the first mover
Speaker 1: of the French.
Speaker 2: Ship with no with a pair. We had a brindle
Speaker 2: and a cream and that they became the paars walking
Speaker 2: around the city. And now I still have the pair,
Speaker 2: but with the additional additional brindle, the new one Luna Muna.
Speaker 2: He's adorable. And you have cats and no that's it.
Speaker 2: But you don't have chickens and peacocks and turkeys like
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: No the New York City. I think that's against the law. Actually,
Speaker 1: I think having eleven animals in the house is borderline
Speaker 1: being a kennel. So I'm not exactly sure.
Speaker 2: We both wear the hats a business executive and creators
Speaker 2: to which is which role is more important to you.
Speaker 2: It's hard.
Speaker 1: They always say that I'm a creative that's perceived as
Speaker 1: a suit to other creatives and as a suit that's
Speaker 1: perceived as a suit of to creative.
Speaker 2: So that's a good place to be. I think I.
Speaker 1: Like to be in the middle. Actually, I like to
Speaker 1: have a head for business. I like to understand what
Speaker 1: it is that I'm doing and not doing at the
Speaker 1: same time. I like if I can to push boundaries
Speaker 1: and to explore what's possible. The worst thing in the
Speaker 1: world to deal with is can't, no, never will happen.
Speaker 2: And yet you had how many years at estay Order?
Speaker 1: I was an stay order for thirty two beautiful.
Speaker 2: So like like your career, your big career is a staylader.
Speaker 2: Now you are with Catterson, I'm with all.
Speaker 1: Cattered in Partners, and I'm a senior advisor working in
Speaker 1: the beauty space and traveling a lot, traveling all over
Speaker 1: the world and.
Speaker 2: Doing what what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Looking at businesses to buy, so you know, meeting new
Speaker 1: beauty entrepreneurs, looking at new distribution channels. And I'm doing
Speaker 1: some brand consulting work with some leading beauty brands now
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: So it's that's fun.
Speaker 1: It's fun, but it's a private relationship between myself and
Speaker 1: those individuals. I still need the ability to work with
Speaker 1: creative people and to see and do things that.
Speaker 2: Are But you're doing it, You're thriving. You look great,
Speaker 2: by the way, Thank you, and I just want to
Speaker 2: mention we're almost out of time and we've been chatting
Speaker 2: it for a long time. You talk beautifully and you
Speaker 2: really are expressive about your interests. I love it so much.
Speaker 2: Your book Behind the Blue Door is a maximalist mantra, yes,
Speaker 2: and it describes beautifully the home you have created. In
Speaker 2: a couple of sentences, just tell our listeners a little
Speaker 2: bit more about the book.
Speaker 1: Well, the core philosophy, it's about creativity without boundaries and
Speaker 1: you BEU and to have the courage to follow your
Speaker 1: dreams and your passions and that anything is possible. From
Speaker 1: growing up in a suburb in Ohio to having met
Speaker 1: and done the thing things that I've been able to
Speaker 1: do over the course of my career and the opportunities
Speaker 1: that have been given to me is a blessing. It
Speaker 1: was not an overnight sensation. It was years and years
Speaker 1: and years and years of not being visible and hard work.
Speaker 1: Yet and the same person I was when I was
Speaker 1: sixteen years old. I am now you think so I do.
Speaker 1: Actually I never lost I never lost that part.
Speaker 2: So nice.
Speaker 1: I think that's why I understand the business so well,
Speaker 1: because I understand the real world and I understand what
Speaker 1: the real wood looks too.
Speaker 2: Well, it's nice to meet someone who thinks more is more.
Speaker 1: More is more, and less is born. Unless my friend
Speaker 1: Donald Robertson would say yes.
Speaker 2: And well, please all of you look up the book,
Speaker 2: go to Amazon right now behind the blue door. Well
Speaker 2: you are fantastic. Thank you so much for spending time
Speaker 2: with me and our listeners a glimpse into the world
Speaker 2: of John Devc. This is amazing, John.
Speaker 1: Thanks you, Martha. You're an icon and someone that I've
Speaker 1: looked up to my entire career, and it's an honor
Speaker 1: to be asked by you even to have a fireside chat.
Speaker 1: Thank you. M