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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Andie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heart Radio. And

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Speaker 1: today we are taking out a listener suggestion for our

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Speaker 1: book club picks. So thanks, as always listeners for sending

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Speaker 1: in your suggestions. We like it. Yes, it's the best.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about Angela Sandy's book Inferior, How Science

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Speaker 1: Got Women Wrong, and the new research that's rewriting the story.

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Speaker 1: So already it's got me hooked. The book is laid

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Speaker 1: out in chapters like a life cycle, um, conception, pregnancy, menopause,

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Speaker 1: things like that. Sandy sets out to tackle all the

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Speaker 1: ways that science has been used to oppress women, how

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Speaker 1: these ideas have infiltrated into our society and our own

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Speaker 1: brains as way to hold women back. It assesses all

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Speaker 1: kinds of studies that have been used over the years

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Speaker 1: to make the case that women are inferior, that have

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Speaker 1: been weaponized against them, and disproves them or points out

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Speaker 1: the flaw. So so Sandy comes in and takes these

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Speaker 1: these studies that we've kind of all accepted and probably

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Speaker 1: a lot of us have heard and internalized, and then

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Speaker 1: looks at them with a scientific guy, and yes, either

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Speaker 1: says no, no way, or points out why at the

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Speaker 1: very least it is flawed. And this is something I'm

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Speaker 1: always really hyper aware of. When we cite studies our

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Speaker 1: research on this show, it gives me anxiety because I

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Speaker 1: know that, under the guise of science for much of history,

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Speaker 1: a lot of these studies have been weaponized against women

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Speaker 1: and minorities and or dismissed or willfully misinterpreted. Santy writes

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Speaker 1: that hushed uncertainty is what lies at the heart of

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Speaker 1: this book is the question mark hanging over us, raising

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Speaker 1: the possibility that women are destined never to achieve parity

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Speaker 1: with men because their bodies and minds imply aren't capable

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Speaker 1: of it. And I know this is something I've experienced,

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Speaker 1: and I've talked about a lot of me kind of

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Speaker 1: internalizing this idea that women aren't good at math, even

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Speaker 1: though I was quite good at it. And I remember

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Speaker 1: when I was in college, I heard a male student

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Speaker 1: make this argument in front of a class of probably

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Speaker 1: fifty people, with such confidence that biologically there was just

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Speaker 1: a reason that men had more power and were better

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Speaker 1: than women. And I remember like, looking around, am I

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Speaker 1: am I hearing? Like this a joke? Well, I can't imagine.

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Speaker 1: And he kind of said it unprompted too. I like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. We were talking about it was macro

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Speaker 1: and economics class and we were talking about money, and

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Speaker 1: he just felt the need to share this viewpoint. Interesting. Yes, interesting.

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Speaker 1: I like guys who just and promptly says something ridiculously

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Speaker 1: sexist and just move on with their life, like they

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Speaker 1: just gave you a magical potion about something or magical

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Speaker 1: something like a magical key to life. Yeah, like you

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Speaker 1: you're too foolish or you don't have the skills or

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Speaker 1: capabilities to understand how much worse you are right on

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Speaker 1: the head. Don't you worry? Sit down? Well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: I want to go ahead and give a shout out

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Speaker 1: to the University of Georgia and the fact that there

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Speaker 1: were so many studies coming from the University of Georgia

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Speaker 1: that was very proud. I was like, hey, that's my school.

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Speaker 1: And I also love the argue as they're making They're like,

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Speaker 1: this is a ridiculous but we'll get into that more later,

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Speaker 1: because I was like, yes, very proud of the studies

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Speaker 1: that was coming out here. But yeah, she also writes,

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Speaker 1: but women are so grossly underrepresented in modern science because

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Speaker 1: for most of history they were treated as intellectual inferiors

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Speaker 1: and deliberately excluded from it. It should come as no

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Speaker 1: surprise then that this time scientific establishments has also painted

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Speaker 1: a distorted picture of the female sex. This in turn,

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Speaker 1: again has skewed how science looks and what it says

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Speaker 1: even now. And by the way, disclaimer, yes, much of

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Speaker 1: these studies, as cited in this book are very sis, heteronormative,

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Speaker 1: and binary. Yeah, which is something we've talked about also

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Speaker 1: on the show. Is a problem we run into all

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Speaker 1: of the time, right, And it's kind of that same

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Speaker 1: because at the very beginning of book, as we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about, they are very dismissive. I don't even

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Speaker 1: study women half the time, same way with any of

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Speaker 1: the marginalized communities in any way, so they are completely

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Speaker 1: dismissed altogether. So unfortunately, but let's get into the what

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Speaker 1: of this book, and the opening of the book, Sandy

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Speaker 1: lays out where we are in terms of women in science.

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Speaker 1: Units goo the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization,

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Speaker 1: which keeps global figures on women in science, estimates that

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Speaker 1: in just a little more than a quarter of all

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Speaker 1: researchers in the world where women. Yeah, so that's a

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Speaker 1: quote she starts out with. Sandy speculates on the reasons

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Speaker 1: why the numbers fall out that way. Generally, men are

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Speaker 1: able to put in more time into their career after

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Speaker 1: child care. Um, women take more time off for child

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Speaker 1: care and for taking care of the house. Sexual harassment

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Speaker 1: and gender biases, a history of being left out, preferring

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Speaker 1: sons to daughters, all kinds of factors that systemically work

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Speaker 1: against women in the world of science, and many of

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Speaker 1: them that we have discussed before on this very show,

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Speaker 1: right and yeah, again a reminder, these are not always choices.

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Speaker 1: These are just what you have to do. For many

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Speaker 1: of the women would say they have to do this,

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Speaker 1: They would much some of them would much rather work,

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Speaker 1: but they came well. And we saw that with the

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Speaker 1: pandemic of women who were able to submit academic papers

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Speaker 1: at the rate that men were because they were working

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Speaker 1: at two am a lab, because they had to take

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Speaker 1: care of children. So, yeah, not always a choice, just

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Speaker 1: something that has to be done, Right, you're the one

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Speaker 1: that's going to do it. Yeah, No one's going to

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Speaker 1: do it, So she has to do it. Um, And

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Speaker 1: there are plenty of historical examples of rules and constraints

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Speaker 1: keeping women out of science. There's a lot. They all

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Speaker 1: make me angry. For example, until the nineteenth century, men

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Speaker 1: at Oxford and Cambridge universities were expected to be celibate

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Speaker 1: and women were thought to be an unnecessary temptation. Women

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Speaker 1: were denied entry to institutions and organizations for centuries. In

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Speaker 1: cases where they weren't, their contributions were often overlooked or ignored. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's not surprising, but it's wild to

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Speaker 1: me that the excuse to keep women out of the

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Speaker 1: university would be you might tempt these men. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: he still happens with dress code. It's true, absolutely true.

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Speaker 1: Not only that, there are scientific theories that men are

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Speaker 1: responsible for evolving as into higher species, which sounds like

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Speaker 1: the most like big headed, where was possible for evolving

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Speaker 1: the species? And to what it is? Okay, well, I

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Speaker 1: do like eventually talk about trying to be more handsome

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Speaker 1: because that's not how they had to evolve, And I

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Speaker 1: wanted to roll my eyes so hard. Yeah, these are

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Speaker 1: filth things. If we've heard him, and yes, one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons behind some of these theories is that men

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Speaker 1: are males of species had to evolve because they had

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Speaker 1: to impress and care for mates, and that women get

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Speaker 1: menopause because men no longer find them attractive. That's a

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Speaker 1: separate theory, but also a theory using science in these

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Speaker 1: ways to maintain the patriarchy to justify sexism and racism. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of that menopause one, but I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: saying you say, like it puts the men and benopause

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Speaker 1: like it makes them all about, it makes it a

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Speaker 1: possible about man. I love that. It's so fault. I

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Speaker 1: should have had menopause long time ago. Um. One example

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Speaker 1: saying he gives involves Charles Darwin who wrote in a

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Speaker 1: letter to a woman, I certainly think that women, though

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Speaker 1: generally superior to men and moral qualities, are inferior intellectually.

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Speaker 1: Charles Darwin h this was a letter that he wrote

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Speaker 1: which was to a woman who was looking to improve

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Speaker 1: the standing of women. So she was reaching out him

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Speaker 1: like look I got these dudes or holding his back

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Speaker 1: here they're saying women are inferior. Thinking that Charles Darwin

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Speaker 1: would be like an ally and he's like, well, actually,

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Speaker 1: he goes on to say women shouldn't try to leave

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Speaker 1: the homes, or else they might hurt themselves and any

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Speaker 1: potential children. That they are essentially less involved than men inferior,

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Speaker 1: he wrote in the Descent of Men, the chief distinction

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Speaker 1: and the intellectual powers of the two sexes is shown

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Speaker 1: by men attaining to a higher imminence in whatever he

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Speaker 1: takes up than women can attain, whether requiring deep thought,

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Speaker 1: reason or imagination, are merely the use of the senses

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Speaker 1: and hands. Man has ultimately become superior to woman. That

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Speaker 1: makes me want to throw things. The woman sent him

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Speaker 1: a fiery response to his letter, quote, let the environment

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Speaker 1: of women be similar to that of men, and with

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Speaker 1: his opportunities before he be fairly judged intellectually his inferior Please,

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Speaker 1: I love that so much, angry Charles Darwood like a

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Speaker 1: give us the same opportunities and we'll see. And that's

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Speaker 1: exactly the whole point of anyone who was held back.

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Speaker 1: Give everyone that equity and same opportunity, and let's see

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Speaker 1: what happens, right exactly. Others have pointed out that the

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Speaker 1: theory of evolution and dismissing the innate inferiority of women

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Speaker 1: due to eve the biblical Christian Eve, both in terms

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Speaker 1: of sin and the fact that she was created from

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Speaker 1: Adam's rib actually was huge in terms of shifting people's

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Speaker 1: beliefs around women, and people really really questioned a lot

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Speaker 1: of these beliefs, and specifically women, perhaps obviously, in after

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Speaker 1: a year of researching, Aliza Burt Gamble published The Evolution

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Speaker 1: of Woman and Inquiry into the Dogma of her Inferiority

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Speaker 1: to Man. Gamble recognized the damage of using science to

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Speaker 1: prove women were inferior and was determined to prove otherwise.

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Speaker 1: She criticized many of Darwin's assertions directly, pointing out the

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Speaker 1: inconsistencies and hypocrisies, and argued that the very qualities he

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Speaker 1: attributed to women that he called lesser like cooperation and altruism,

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Speaker 1: must have contributed to humanity survival as a whole. She

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Speaker 1: argued that women had been systemically suppressed by men, which

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Speaker 1: made them appear inferior. She pointed out examples of powerful

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Speaker 1: women in other cultures that Darwin gave no attention to,

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Speaker 1: and while her work left an impact in political and

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Speaker 1: activist spaces, scientists were for the most part unimpressed, didn't

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Speaker 1: didn't want to hear it, didn't want to hear it.

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Speaker 1: I love the story so much because she like took

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Speaker 1: a whole year of her life and dedicated it just

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Speaker 1: to this. She was ready already. Um, and we do

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Speaker 1: have a lot more to get into, but first we're

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Speaker 1: gonna get into a quick break for word from our sponsor,

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Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you sponsored. Something else Sany digs

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Speaker 1: into in this book is women's historical role of being

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Speaker 1: submissive to men, relegated to the private sphere, not in

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Speaker 1: public sphere where science takes place or we're even they

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Speaker 1: can be seen like their contributions could be seen, right,

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Speaker 1: and so just because we love it. Here's another infuriating

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Speaker 1: quote from the evolutionary biologist George John Romains in seven.

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Speaker 1: Quote from her abiding sense of weakness and consequent dependence,

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Speaker 1: there also arises in woman that deeply rooted desire to

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Speaker 1: please the opposite sex, which, beginning in the terror of

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Speaker 1: a slave, has ended in a devotion of a wife.

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Speaker 1: It is infuriated. Oh. Several theories around this time sought

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Speaker 1: to specifically scientifically proved men were better than women. One

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Speaker 1: involved a scientist repeatedly injecting himself with blood. Salman and

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Speaker 1: juices obtained from crushed dog and guinea pig testicles. He

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Speaker 1: claimed it helped him with mental clarity, strengthened stamina. Wow,

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Speaker 1: definitely proving better than women. Okay. A later similar experiment

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Speaker 1: was done with female juices. What the scientists had uncovered

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Speaker 1: were sex hormones, and this was very exciting news for

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Speaker 1: pharmaceutical companies in the nineteen twenties, who now could capitalize

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Speaker 1: on masculinity and femininity using science. The study of hormones

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Speaker 1: made people a lot of money and generated a lot

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Speaker 1: of myths. For instance, it has never been definitively proven

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Speaker 1: that higher levels of testasterone made people more us of

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Speaker 1: and yet I bet almost all of us believe that.

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Speaker 1: At one time I thought that was the case. The

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Speaker 1: Olympic officials should do Yeah, yep, yeah that's true. I

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Speaker 1: mean we're still talking about this stuff to this day,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, we do, we do know that this is

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Speaker 1: still a thing. Here's another quote. A study published in

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Speaker 1: twelve psychologists Karan Moss Rescuing and a team of researchers

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Speaker 1: at Yale University export the possibility of gender bias in

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Speaker 1: recruitment by sending out fake job applications for a vacancy

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Speaker 1: of laboratory manager. Every application was identical, except that half

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Speaker 1: her given a female name and half a male name.

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Speaker 1: When they were asked to comment on these potential employees,

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Speaker 1: scientists rated women significantly lower incompetence and higher ability. They

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Speaker 1: were also less willing to mentor them and offered far

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Speaker 1: lower starting salaries. The only difference, of course, was that

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Speaker 1: these applicants appeared to be female. And we talked about

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Speaker 1: this where science has sort of undergone this me too moment,

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Speaker 1: just like a lot of industries and um fields are,

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Speaker 1: and just hearing all of the different ways that women

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Speaker 1: have felt discriminated against in that world. A lot that

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Speaker 1: this happened with the science filled for labs, as it

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Speaker 1: did the same thing with tech. Not for a few years, la,

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Speaker 1: I feel like every time something new happens, the same

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Speaker 1: bs happens, and this is that, and they have to

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Speaker 1: do the same damn uh tests to see if they're

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Speaker 1: still happening, and you know it's still happening. Mind blowing.

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Speaker 1: So the book delves into how many cultures of prize

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Speaker 1: sons of her daughters too. Despite the fact that everything

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Speaker 1: is equal, girls are more statistically likely to survive. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: in societies where the infant mortality race don't match that,

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Speaker 1: it suggests that girls are at more social risk, not

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Speaker 1: given the same amount of care or resources as boys.

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Speaker 1: Across almost all major causes of death, women are statistically

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Speaker 1: more likely to survive. That doesn't mean women don't get sick.

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Speaker 1: They do, and in fact, the numbers show more women

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Speaker 1: do get sick and some you start just theorize, experience

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Speaker 1: a lot more pain. However, this could also be because

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Speaker 1: women do survive more and therefore suffering more. My theory

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Speaker 1: on that was they also are more likely to go

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Speaker 1: get help, and that's why it's reported that there are

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Speaker 1: sick of more right. And I mean, as we've talked

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Speaker 1: about a lot, a lot of times how women present

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Speaker 1: an illness isn't studied or is dismissed. So I think

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Speaker 1: that the fact that this is showing out even given

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Speaker 1: those those things, that says a lot. That says a lot. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this dismissal of women's pain in the medical world

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Speaker 1: is starting to change, but frustratingly slowly, and recently in

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Speaker 1: a doctor of reproductive health in the UK, John Gillibad

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Speaker 1: told a reporter that period pain mistrel pain can be

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Speaker 1: as painful as a heart attack, and that it hasn't

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Speaker 1: been studied because it's not something men have to deal with,

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Speaker 1: something he said. And I mean, I know a lot

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Speaker 1: of us have been there or where you trying to

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Speaker 1: explain it to people who haven't had the cramps are

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Speaker 1: like severe cramps in here. It's like it's very big, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, And we've talked about it many times, the

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Speaker 1: fact that every woman has different levels of pain, and

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Speaker 1: there's this whole other concept of what can who can handle?

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Speaker 1: What is kind of that irony of like, you don't

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Speaker 1: know what we go through. Some women don't know what

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Speaker 1: we go through either, so they're dismissive of that as well,

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Speaker 1: and I want to punch them in the face. But

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Speaker 1: there that bad. It's not that bad. I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: will push you somewhere. I don't know where, but I

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Speaker 1: will push you. But I found that quote interesting because

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Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, someone's acknowledge that it can be severe

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Speaker 1: as severe all thank you. I U D. So women

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Speaker 1: have also been left out entirely of new studies because

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Speaker 1: of an opposite problem, the belief that their bodies are

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Speaker 1: the same as men's and I did find that interesting

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Speaker 1: the back and forth of this In scientists analyzed over

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Speaker 1: three hundred papers about the evolution of the general talia

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Speaker 1: published between nineteen nine, and about half looked at only males,

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Speaker 1: while only eight percent looked at only females. One reporter

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Speaker 1: dubbed this finding quote the case of the missing vaginas.

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Speaker 1: I did like that it's cheaper to study men, and

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Speaker 1: the long held belief has been that women's hormones fluctuate

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Speaker 1: more and that there is a risk of pregnancy, which

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Speaker 1: seems to be an excuse just straight across the board.

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Speaker 1: This means that in some areas we are woefully ill

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Speaker 1: informed about how drugs interact with women, and in some

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Speaker 1: cases this has had disastrous consequences. And yeah, I didn't

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Speaker 1: really like the fame that they talked about hard conditions

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Speaker 1: because that's some of the things I didn't know until

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Speaker 1: my mother ended up going to the hospital and we

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Speaker 1: found out she had like a ninety percent clogged artery

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Speaker 1: that was her main artery, like they called it the

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Speaker 1: widow maker, And it took her going to three doctors

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Speaker 1: before they figured it out. And all she had was

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Speaker 1: the jaw pain and dizziness and tiredness, which is completely

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Speaker 1: opposite of what I knew as a heart condition, which

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Speaker 1: she talks about in this book as well. We've talked

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Speaker 1: to about how girls and women may present things like

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Speaker 1: autism differently or a d h D differently, which may

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Speaker 1: be societal, cultural, biological, or combination of all of the above,

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Speaker 1: saying that the author concludes that male and female bodies

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Speaker 1: can be both similar in a lot of ways and

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Speaker 1: different in others. Yeah, and I think that was a

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Speaker 1: real tricky and is a real tricky saying to keep

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Speaker 1: in mind, because in a lot of ways our bodies

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Speaker 1: are the same, but there are differences. So it's like

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Speaker 1: it's been used. It's been used both ways negatively, right,

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Speaker 1: And I did love her conversation and the back and

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Speaker 1: forth study about gendered uh norms versus biology, and then

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Speaker 1: did go back and forth and talking about the studies

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Speaker 1: that happened for young babies. Also, she talks a little

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Speaker 1: bit about attachment as well. She goes into a lot

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Speaker 1: and how that presents biologically and or societally. Yes, Yes,

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Speaker 1: another myth that has persisted. The female brain weighs less,

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Speaker 1: so therefore they're less intelligent. Sandy de tells the story

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Speaker 1: of Alice Cheneworth's day. More commonly known as Helen Hamilton's Gardener,

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Speaker 1: she was vocal about women's rights issues and penned works

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Speaker 1: like Facts and Fictions of Life, where she passionately argued

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Speaker 1: that institutions like marriage and unequal education access held women back.

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Speaker 1: She also argued that when scientists say things like a

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Speaker 1: woman's brain weighs less he and yes usually at this

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Speaker 1: time in the late eighteen hundreds, that he she, as

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Speaker 1: a woman, had no way to verify or disprove his findings.

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Speaker 1: She gave a talk called sex in Brain at a

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Speaker 1: woman's conference in Washington, d C. In eighty eight. She said,

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Speaker 1: I finally was fear and trembling made up my mind

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Speaker 1: to learn what he knew on this subject or perish

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Speaker 1: in the attempt. He being a male scientist who claimed

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Speaker 1: women's brains were smaller and therefore they were less intelligent.

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Speaker 1: She worked with a scientist over fourteen months and talked

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Speaker 1: to over twenty anatomists. Her results, published in Popular Science monthly,

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Speaker 1: revealed the experts couldn't tell the difference between a male

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Speaker 1: and female brain just by like looking at it, or

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Speaker 1: holding it, or weighing it. And also that brain weight

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Speaker 1: doesn't equal intelligence. She wrote, if this were true, and

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Speaker 1: co elephant might outthink as all. Despite compelling results in

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Speaker 1: a well written paper, she was mocked by the scientist

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Speaker 1: in question. Gardner, determined and angry left her brain to

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Speaker 1: science to be studied to science. After she died. The

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Speaker 1: scientist that came into possession of her brain validated her,

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Speaker 1: but the myth persisted. I love that the comparison was

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Speaker 1: that her brain weighed more than the who was like no,

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Speaker 1: this she was like after death she still had the

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Speaker 1: like a brand. Yes, I hope somewhere she got to

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Speaker 1: have the last lap. So there's a bunch of bunch

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Speaker 1: of bunch of ground that's covered in these books, and

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Speaker 1: we did want to run through some other things, but

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Speaker 1: first we're gonna pause for one more quick or word

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Speaker 1: from responsor and we're back. Thank you sponsored. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this book wasn't a difficult read at all, but it

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Speaker 1: is dense like it covers a lot, so we wanted

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Speaker 1: to run through some terms our ideas that resonated with us,

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Speaker 1: but definitely recommend it. It was it was really fascinating.

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Speaker 1: It was a really fascinating read. I think that's one

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Speaker 1: of those that you might need a workbook, yes, or

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Speaker 1: like you have to pause and then go back and

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Speaker 1: reread for a second, like let it sink in. One

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Speaker 1: of the things in there that I thought was really

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Speaker 1: interesting because we've all heard this hunter gatherers story, that

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Speaker 1: hunter gathering idea of men want to go out and

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Speaker 1: hunt and the women would stay and take care of

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Speaker 1: children and they can unity and usually work in agriculture.

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Speaker 1: And I really love saying the whole take on this

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Speaker 1: of like, why are we, even if we were going

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Speaker 1: to accept this is true, why are we dismissing the

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Speaker 1: importance of the gatherer as if it's a lesser, especially

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Speaker 1: because at the time, like, you're the gatherers, what's kind

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Speaker 1: of sustaining you in the community. The hunting might get

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Speaker 1: you some meat every now and then, right, but otherwise, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did love Also they did talk about the fact

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Speaker 1: that women did hunt, but they also came back and

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Speaker 1: understanding that their role in the village was more important

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Speaker 1: than men essentially, and so it couldn't be far from

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Speaker 1: it overall. Of course, there was some conversation about pregnancy

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Speaker 1: and motherhood and all of that in that conversation, but

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Speaker 1: it was interesting that they're like that it wasn't because

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Speaker 1: they couldn't. It's because they rather do this or had

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Speaker 1: the again had the obligation of doing something else outside

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Speaker 1: of that. But they also did it for sport. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: part of the hunter gatherer part was that men could

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Speaker 1: show off right once again, Yeah, get that made. But

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Speaker 1: also there's discussion of the importance of like the grandmother

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Speaker 1: and how they would be out hunting and they be

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Speaker 1: caring children maybe while they were doing it. And I

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Speaker 1: do think like, as we're talking about all of this,

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Speaker 1: you can kind of hear it. You can kind of

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Speaker 1: hear the problem that saying is at the heart of

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Speaker 1: Sandy's book is that a lot of it is how

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Speaker 1: we've interpreted these sciences are the history in that the

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Speaker 1: way we frame it and the way we see it

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Speaker 1: is the hunter slash the man is the superior role

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Speaker 1: is of more value, And it's just like how we've

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Speaker 1: interpreted it and taking it in. I did also like

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Speaker 1: that she found the many studies or had talked about

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Speaker 1: the studies where it talks about the fact that in

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Speaker 1: these types of villages, in these types of communities, it's

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Speaker 1: not so much that there is this level of men

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Speaker 1: being superior as in fact, it is noted that typically

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Speaker 1: in these communities which had not been painted by religious

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Speaker 1: ideology as well as scientific ideology, which we're leaning very

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Speaker 1: sexist obviously, that women were seen as more valuable within

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Speaker 1: that community or within that village abound that interesting too. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it is kind of if it wasn't so sad

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Speaker 1: in the ways we've weaponized it against people. It is

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Speaker 1: kind of funny to me that, like, it's this human

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Speaker 1: nature to be like, oh, this is this gender, this

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Speaker 1: sex disapperior to this one. So the hunting usually the

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Speaker 1: people in power being like, see, this is proof that

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Speaker 1: we should be on top because hunting is better. It's

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Speaker 1: just like, why do we got to be this way? Why?

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Speaker 1: Why do you why? There's also a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot of discussion around sexual behavior and a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that we've talked about recently on this show, and

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Speaker 1: how science has been used to back up things that

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Speaker 1: mostly benefit men, like studies that I'm sure a lot

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Speaker 1: of us have heard this too, like men are set

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Speaker 1: up to cheat, like just in their genes, they're gonna cheat,

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Speaker 1: and women are chased, and that's also in their genes.

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Speaker 1: But then as Sadie points out, if that's the case,

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Speaker 1: if women are chased, why are males and nature so insecure,

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Speaker 1: they'll be promiscuous, And she gives a lot of examples

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Speaker 1: of like pigeons just really not letting the female pigeons

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Speaker 1: go anyway, just all these instances, and she's like, it

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Speaker 1: don't really make sense, right, They like there was a

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Speaker 1: conversation about the fact that yeah, after watching mating that

430
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: the male species were so insecure they would wake them up,

431
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: make them uncomfortable, put them in an uncomfortable position to

432
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: sleep so he could watch her like essentially and how

433
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: constant that is. And they're like, why are you so

434
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: in secure? A b why won't you let me be?

435
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: But I also thought it was hilarious about the whole

436
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: like polic of me b as I'm like, oh my god,

437
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: how long do we have to talk about the fact

438
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: that they continue to say men are not supposed to

439
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: be a monogamous men are not supposed to be monogamous,

440
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: and at the same time being like, but women have

441
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: to be choosy, like why we have to be what?

442
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: But apparently been aren't and they just grab anything. So

443
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: there are so many things of like do you really

444
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: want to be reflected as someone that has no standards

445
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: like and whatsoever, Like you just don't care and you're

446
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: that powerless to your payments. Right. That's something else that

447
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: comes up, I think in these conversations a lot too,

448
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: is that nature can be it can make us uncomfortable. Um.

449
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: And one of the things Sandy talks about in here

450
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: is in fantaside and maternal instincts or perhaps lack of

451
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: maternal instinct and of course those are conversations that when

452
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: you talk about them even in animals, but if even

453
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,160
Speaker 1: like applied in the humans, it makes us really really

454
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: really uncomfortable because we we think that we have evolved

455
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: beyond those things. But also a lot of societal things

456
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: that we do, we have placed these narratives that make

457
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: them sound much nicer than they are in nature. So

458
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: like making love. Perhaps it's a great example. And that's

459
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: not to say like that's wrong necessarily, but it can

460
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: become really murky when we're discussing these scientific studies and

461
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: what they mean and if they apply to us, if

462
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: they do at all. But yeah, that was that was

463
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: that something that's in the book as well. And there's

464
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: a lot of examples from Bonnabos and chips, and one

465
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: of my very favorite quotes, I believe it was a

466
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: scientist that Sandy was speaking to. She she called the

467
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: female bonabo's a gift to the fine feminist movements are bonnabos.

468
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever said it all loud anyway,

469
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: type of monkey. Uh yeah. And then Sandy does talk

470
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: about yes, things like menopause and and how that has

471
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: become all about men as well, how patriarchy the rise

472
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: of it was encoded into some of the very first laws,

473
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: um stuff that we talked about, like um, female genital mutilation,

474
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: particularly women's rules in that in this case virginity, the

475
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: idea of virginity orgasms as we talked about also making

476
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: that all about men. Right. I think it's interesting that

477
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: they again it just comes back to when did this happen?

478
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: And this is not necessarily that old in concept because

479
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: it was introduced with all these religious ideologies and insertions

480
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: to society. And again we talked about if we go

481
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: back further and who is valued and what is seen

482
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: as value, it's not so much about gender, it's not

483
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: so much at about that, and even talking about you know,

484
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: when you were talking about the chimps in infanticide, there

485
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: was a lot of eugenics behind this conversation, and we

486
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: need to talk about that as a bigger point of

487
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 1: like what did they see as desirable and an offspring

488
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: and the fact that the value was placed on men,

489
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: but as some countries if it realized having all boys

490
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: is not a great thing, right, right? And I think

491
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: that's that's the heart of this book, and I think

492
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: the point was very well made. But we can't get

493
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: rid of these biases that we have when we do science,

494
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: when we do science the science. Yeah, And that's something

495
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: we've talked about with technology too, is those biases get

496
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: coded into technology, which further perpetuates sexism or racism or whatever.

497
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: And it can be something that you don't even realize.

498
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: But that's the problem is you don't realize it, and

499
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: then it becomes like something that is used to hold

500
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: up these systems that are sexist and racist. Right. And

501
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: you would think with things like technology, which is fairly new,

502
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: they would learn from the past mistakes of oh, not

503
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: everyone who's using this is going to be a white man,

504
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: right in the story? Uh talking about like the facial

505
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: recognition was based on white ben and white people in general,

506
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: and so therefore it's not taking any person of color

507
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: into their thought process of like, oh, this is work

508
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: with them. No, because your technology was not geared towards

509
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: that and therefore creates an automatic bias against people of color.

510
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: And that's the whole different conversations like this should be learned.

511
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: And of course again like this came from a heteronormative

512
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: CIS perspective, but this is that conversation of why intersectionality

513
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: is so important and why should be brought into point

514
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: from jump and what we look at as our past

515
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: historical mistakes and I say ours because I'm still letting

516
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: go of my internalized misogyny as well. That it has

517
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: this whole narrative like this is where it comes from,

518
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: this is where it went wrong. This is the chance

519
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: that we have to change this because this can be

520
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: applied for future things including technology, including any type of

521
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: apps or any know, all of those things like it

522
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: should be applied to that point. Yeah, one thing that

523
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting as I was reading through this,

524
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 1: and it makes sense, but I feel like a lot

525
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: of these studies she would go talk to men behind them.

526
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: Sometimes women as well UM, and you know, just ask

527
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: questions and it sounded like they just wanted to prove

528
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: something they already believed, like I believe that male species

529
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: aren't meant to be monogamous and women are, and this

530
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: is how I went about proving it. And if I

531
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: think that, you know, even moving away from science, we're

532
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: all kind of we're all guilty of this, of picking

533
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: and choosing what supports what we want to believe and

534
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: ignoring what doesn't support it. And I think that that,

535
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: especially when you're talking at you know, a top level systemically,

536
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: UM is really problematic and it has been used to

537
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: keep these systems in place and hurt and oppressed so

538
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: many people. But we want to believe that science is neutral,

539
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: but they have people doing it so it's not. I mean,

540
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: but we look at people like Darwin, and when we

541
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: look at Pickopole, like Freud who was a psycho pathologist

542
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: slash neurologists, which I was like what he was, we

543
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: look at how often is so incorrect? But we take

544
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: the minute things that are correct and then one with

545
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: it and then have the audacity to say everything they

546
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: must have done it must been good, as we know

547
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: Darwin destroyed a lot of species to prove himself right,

548
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: Like he literally decimated species on islands that like we've

549
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: never seen because of him. He essentially killed off these

550
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: old turtles, like what but like he did things that

551
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: seems like an atrocity. And I think a lot of

552
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: people who are animal lovers like environmentalists now a degree. Now,

553
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: of course it's a whole different standard and we're learning

554
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: new things, but the fact of the matter is there's

555
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: still putting those practices too, as if they're facts, instead

556
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: of looking like like this may have not been correct,

557
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: because these are the things that we're going wrong. And

558
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: as if actually talks about the one paper who everybody

559
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: every man was banking their papers off of and then

560
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: turning out they're like no one checked it, No one

561
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: actually checked it, and there was never able to recreate

562
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: his experiment to actually give the same results. That's problematic,

563
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: m And I think that's a great point to like questioning,

564
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, where did this come from, how old is it,

565
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: how is the study conducted? But when you base like

566
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: all these other studies off of this one study and

567
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: you're just assuming it's right, And I think that's something

568
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: else that's also touched on in the book is you know,

569
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: there's the last women, as she makes the case in

570
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: the beginning, in this world of stem. So there's that problem.

571
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: But then also people are less likely to believe women

572
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: or think women are credible in that world. So I

573
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: think if a man comes out he's like, yeah, here's

574
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: my study, and no, people are like, yeah, you must

575
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: have known what he's doing, that's correct. Whereas if a

576
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: woman is like, here's mine and people like no, probably

577
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: you need to do all X, Y Z to prove

578
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: to me that this is accurate, right, and then I'm

579
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: going to claim it yes, which just compounds the problem.

580
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: I did like that I've never heard of the terms

581
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: of neuro sexist and neurofeminist, um, but she talks about

582
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: those in there, which are kind of what we're talking

583
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: about in that how you approach these ideas when you're

584
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: conducting these experiments, are even coming up with like ways

585
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: to conduct it or what what we should be looking

586
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: into that you can be you can have this kind

587
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: of neuro sexist view, or you can be feminist about it,

588
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: but have a neurofeminist for you. Here's another quote. Study

589
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: after study has shown almost all behavioral and psychological differences

590
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 1: between the sexes to be small or non existent. Cambridge

591
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: University psychologist Melissa Hines and others have repeatedly demonstrated that

592
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: boys and girls have little, if any, noticeable gaps between

593
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: them when it comes to the fine motor skills, spatial visualization,

594
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 1: mathematic stability, and verbal fluency. And then goes on to say,

595
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,479
Speaker 1: our brains are intersex And that was also interesting because,

596
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: as we said she it can be a very tricky

597
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: line of when you're doing the studies like this, and

598
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: a lot of the women she interviewed, I felt not

599
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: so much with the men, but a lot of the

600
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: women she interviewed were like, I don't like how my

601
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: study has been used, or like kind of like cautious,

602
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: were anxious because we do know that it has been

603
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: weaponized or misunderstood or willfully misinterpreted. So I just thought

604
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 1: that was interesting. But as more and more women enter

605
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: the scientific field, they are changing the script right. Decades

606
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: of rigorous testing of girls and boys confirmed that there

607
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: are a few psychological differences between the sexes, and that

608
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: the differences seen are heavily shaped by surprise, culture not biology. Yes, yes,

609
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: um that being said plenty of fairly recent studies are

610
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: still used to prove that men are superior in language

611
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: that is often very sexist, often very Western. There have

612
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: been a handful of studies that quote prove that there

613
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: are inherent differences and babies of different sexes, that baby

614
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: girls are more empathetic and baby boys are more systematizers,

615
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: um more into machines and just systems. In general, ideas

616
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: like this are seductive, especially for new parents, also make

617
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: a lot of money, catch a lot of attention. But yeah,

618
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: it's kind of I don't know. I felt like a

619
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: lot of these studies I was reading there was an

620
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,479
Speaker 1: air from the usually male scientists behind it of like, look,

621
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 1: I know this is gonna make you mad, ladies, but

622
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: it's science, right. Just because you don't like it, Just

623
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: because it sounds sexist doesn't mean it's not true. Right.

624
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: Just because it sounds sexist doesn't mean it is. Like

625
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: I feel like that's an attitude we see a lot

626
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: in um men who are experts in something of almost

627
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,919
Speaker 1: almost like I'll eat your your tears for breakfast, but

628
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: I almost like reveling in causing the anger and being

629
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: kind of the asshole. Yeah, who was that one professor

630
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: she talked to who was like, I'm about to get

631
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: fired from Rutgers because we don't agree. His paper was

632
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: bus essentially. Yeah. I did find that interesting too, that

633
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 1: it seemed like a lot of the mineral like I'm

634
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: sorry you don't like it, but that don't mean it's

635
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: not science. It's kind of that same attitude of yeah,

636
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: but you also didn't read it. There's a lot of

637
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: asterisks behind your research or that research where you're like, oh,

638
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: and the specific study about the differences between the baby

639
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: boys and baby girls. One of the conversations was the

640
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: fact that the testers may have made uh, nonverbal cues

641
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: without knowing they are making nonverbal cues because of their

642
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: own prejudice of seeing which one was a baby boy

643
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: and which one was a baby girl, and so they

644
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: had an ununknowing bias in thinking this is how they

645
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: would react. And she did say that there was all

646
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: these little ASTERIXX to it, like, yes, we did get

647
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: this results, but it may be the results because us

648
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: actually did a head nod when I didn't mean to

649
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: because it was a girl and that's how a girl's

650
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: supposed to think. Type of conversation, right, Well, the fact

651
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: that they were there sex was indicated at all. That's

652
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: kind of like, why did you do that? If you're

653
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: trying to see a difference, That doesn't really make sense

654
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: in terms of getting a good set of data, right,

655
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, there was there was that and sort of

656
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: this like men not used to being questioned or having

657
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 1: to follow up. But also, yeah, you know, we've all

658
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: heard women are more emotional, so if you are a

659
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: woman and you have questions, then it's almost it's almost

660
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: a cycle where this guy could be like, well, the

661
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 1: science says you're more emotional, so this just makes sense.

662
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: You're doing this, You're right, I'm just asking questions, right,

663
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: Also like that there's always a trade off. He's like, well,

664
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: as where I'm intellectual, you're more emotionally available and smarter

665
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: in that way, and that like wait, there's a trade

666
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: off what right? But it's clear which one? Yeah, right,

667
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: So clearly a lot to unpack here, a lot to discuss.

668
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: It has given me a lot to think about, for sure,

669
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: because I love I love science, but it's very You've

670
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: got to be clear that it is still people behind it,

671
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: and people still have biases, you know, saying he's got

672
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: her other book Superior, so we may have to look

673
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: at that as well. Yes, and listeners, If you have

674
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: any book suggestions for us, please send them our away,

675
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 1: our emails, stuff Medium, mom stuff at I heart media

676
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find us on Twitter at

677
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: Months of Podcast or on Instagram. And stuff I've Never

678
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: Told You. Thanks, It's always to our super producer Christina.

679
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: Thank you Christina, and thanks to you for listening stuff

680
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: I Never told you the protection of I hire radio

681
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: for more podcast in my Heart Radio, the radio app,

682
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or ever you listen to your favorite shows