WEBVTT - It's Not Just You—Everyone Feels Like a Fraud at Work 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.440 Everyone's heard the phrase fake it till you make it. 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:04.960 Just act like you know what you're doing until you 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.000 actually know what you're doing. But some of us keep 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.000 feeling like we're faking it long after we've made it, 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.000 and that feeling can haunt you for your whole career. 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:29.600 And it's called impostor syndrome. This is a game plan. Hi, 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:33.160 I'm Francesco Levi and I'm Rebecca Greenfield, and today we're 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.479 talking about impostor syndrome. Yeah, this is a phrase that 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:39.120 gets used a lot in the how to Be a 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.959 Woman in the workplace world that I spend a lot 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.040 of time in. Yeah, it feels kind of recent and buzzwordy, 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.000 but it's actually been around for some time. It was 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.440 coined by some clinical psychologists in the late seventies, and 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.000 it basically just describes this phenomenon of feeling like you're 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.440 a fraud, uh, no matter how long you've been doing something, 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.240 and spite all evidence to the contrary. So basically like 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:06.280 nothing can convince you that you're not gonna one day 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.959 get exposed as a complete fake. Yeah. I had an 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:14.040 acute experience of impostor syndrome very recently. Yeah, you were 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:15.320 telling me about this, and I think this is like 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.280 the perfect example of impostor syndrome. I was asked to 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:22.240 moderate a panel at the Tribeca Film Festival, and when 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.440 the woman reached out to me, she said that she 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.440 saw that I had written an article about Hetty Lamar 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.360 and there was a biopic about her and they wanted 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.160 me to moderate the panel on her. I had written 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.760 this article in eleven so when she reached out to me, 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.280 I said, I wrote this article five six years ago. 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:44.120 I don't cover entertainment. I never moderated a panel, like 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.520 can you you you've got the wrong person. You were 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.080 literally like I, you made a mistake, you called up 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.280 the wrong number. And I felt then we need to 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:53.920 tell her that to be like, you gotta you gotta know, 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.320 And she said, I googled you, like I know what 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.560 you do now. And she assured me that analysts are 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:04.080 good moderators and that you know, I would be great 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.520 for this. But I still had this nagging sensation that 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.320 I was just like baking it. Basically, yeah, you have 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:12.919 you have felt the need to justify yourself or tell 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.560 her you weren't qualified. Meanwhile, like she's the one who 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.000 decides if you're qualified. She's picking the people to be 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.760 on this panel, and she knew who you were and decided, 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.040 Like that's all. That's all the qualification you need is 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.560 that somebody decided you should be the moderator for this panel. 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.799 But that's what impostor syndrome is about. It's like, even 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.680 if other people think you're good at something, they must 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.360 have it slightly wrong and they don't know the real 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.400 they mean, the facts. Yea, they need your whole history. 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:41.960 I've had similar experiences with this, and one of the 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.760 things that came to mind when we were talking about 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:51.160 impostor syndrome was how I've basically had a decent career 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.200 in media. I've always had staff jobs at big media 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:58.440 companies ever since I finished graduate school about ten years ago. 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.520 And as you know, in our industry, it's it's kind 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:03.920 of hard to get a staff job. A lot of 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.919 people work freelance, either by choice or just because they 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.840 can't get um salary jobs at sort of journalism outlets. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:16.400 And whenever people ask me about my career outcomes, I 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.720 always describe myself as extremely lucky for having that, like 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.000 those back to back staff jobs, and luck is this 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.720 word that I think is associated with imposter syndrome, because 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.680 when I say I'm lucky, I'm sort of referring to 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.720 other people in my field who I know are also 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.400 really good journalists and just haven't been able to land 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.600 staff jobs. So I feel this need to point out that, like, yeah, 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:42.200 I may be good enough to get a staff job, 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:43.680 but lots of people are good enough to get staff 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:47.680 jobs and didn't, and so I'm just a lucky one. Yeah, 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.880 you're apologizing to those people, are like on behalf of them. 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.560 It's like this all messed up thing. You feel the 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.480 need to say that they too could have gotten the 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:01.120 job or something. I don't know. Yeah, it's just the 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.840 luck of the draw that I got it, and you know, 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:05.480 I look back on it and no, there was plenty 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:07.520 of hard work there. And it's not to say be 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.600 hard working and qualified and someone else can be hard 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.480 working and qualified and that person not get the job 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.000 that you have. Yeah, And I want to talk about 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:17.880 a related concept to this, which is the fake it 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.240 till you make it idea, which is such a cliche, 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.680 but it seems to me like this common advice that 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.280 everybody in their career makes, just like act more competent 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:31.120 than you are, and then you'll get this feedback, you know, 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.719 because people will be impressed by your confidence and they'll 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:35.520 treat you like you're better at your job and they'll 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.200 give you better assignments and that will give you even 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.400 more confidence. And then eventually, like the confidence becomes real 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.200 and the skills become real and this sort of virtuous cycle, 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.720 and it's like a career strategy I think a lot 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:52.240 of people employ. But then it kind of feeds imposter 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.279 syndrome because you worry. I think that you'll be discovered 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.279 as a fake if you're going into a situation and 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.200 consciously faking it. Yeah. I think the difference to me 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:06.240 is the confidence in yourself. Like someone can be faking 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:10.440 it until they make it, and they they know they're 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.520 gonna make it, Like they have so much confidence they're like, oh, 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:14.000 I can fake this until I make it. And then 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:15.840 there's the person who's like, oh, I'm just faking it 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.000 until I make it, and um, then when they make it, 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:20.880 they still are going to have that lack of confidence 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.080 in themselves. And I think that is impostor syndrome. Yeah, 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.560 a lot of the in a lot of the reading 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.280 that we've been doing about impostor syndrome. People who are 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:34.400 hugely successful but talk about feeling this way UM have 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.480 said that they've partly dealt with it by just kind 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:41.640 of accepting everyone is faking some part of what they're 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.279 doing at any given moment. You know, they're they're pretending 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:46.880 or glossing over ways in which they might not be 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.559 perfect at every single aspect of their job. And so 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:53.000 it's actually not that productive to dwell on whether your 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:57.359 confidence in something is real or not and fake it 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:59.640 till you make it. Turns out to be a pretty 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.919 use full strategy. UM. I found some cool research showing 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.400 that it actually works. UM. There was a study where 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.520 people were given a math quiz and one group was 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.680 told that they had been flashed the answers on a 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.080 screen so quickly that they couldn't register it consciously. Of course, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.520 they hadn't. They had just been shown like garbled whatever, 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.280 and the other group hadn't. The group that thought that 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.680 they knew the answers to the test did better on 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:26.880 the test, so even though they didn't actually have any 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:28.960 more knowledge, just thinking they had more knowledge helped them 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:32.160 do better. There's another cool study where people were put 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.000 in a flight simulator and given fighter pilot clothes and 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.680 given all this feedback that was fighter pilot ishan they 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.200 ended up doing better on a vision test than people 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.760 who were just put in the flight simulator without all 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:46.679 that feedback. So you adopt the costume and the posture 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.359 of someone who's good at something, you get good at it. 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.200 That kind of says to me that impostor syndrome can 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:57.200 be really bad for you then, because if you think 0:06:57.240 --> 0:06:59.719 you have all the knowledge and tools even though you don't, 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.880 that's not impostor syndrome, right, that's the right. Then you 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.440 do well on the test or you're the pilot, you're 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.359 the good pilot. But if you're constantly have self doubt 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:13.720 that I must have some negative impact. Right. You're like 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:18.040 rewarded for being ignorant about how bad you are at something, 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:23.360 but you're punished if you're good at something. I don't know. Yeah, 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:30.280 I think everyone experiences impostors syndrome, and anybody who is 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:35.000 more marginalized is going to feel more fraudulent. I think 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:40.240 actually this is why UM women might have a stronger 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.680 or different experience of imposter syndrome, because you get a 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:46.440 lot of external validation for the idea that maybe you 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.520 don't belong in the workplace if you're a woman, or, 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:51.840 as you say, if you're a part of any marginalized group, 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:53.320 if you're a person of color or a person with 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:58.040 a disability. You're getting these external messages that other people 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.200 don't value your work as much, and so that's only 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.920 going to feed your insecurities about that. And somebody who 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.800 described the difference between men and women and how they 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:14.520 experience imposter syndrome really well is our guest Dr Suzanne Covin, 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.280 who wrote an article called Letter to a Young Female Physician, 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.400 and in it she said, I believe that women's fear 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.000 of fraudulence is similar to men's, but with an added feature. 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:29.680 Not only do we tend to perseverate over our inadequacies, 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:35.760 we also often denigrate our strengths. To hear more about 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.360 what she means by that and why she wrote a 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.640 letter to young female physicians, we're happy to welcome Dr 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:45.400 Suzanne Covin. Suzanne Covin is a primary care doctor at 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.400 Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, where she is also a 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.199 writer in residence, and she's on the faculty of Harvard 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:56.040 Medical School. Welcome Suzanne, thanks for having me so start 0:08:56.040 --> 0:09:00.439 by telling us why you decided to frame the Vice 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.920 article that you wrote about imposter syndrome as a letter 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:08.560 to young female physicians. Well, what happened was last June, 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:15.559 when the incoming interns were going through orientation at my hospital, 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:20.480 I was invited to participate in this wonderful exercise where 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.120 the interns were asked to write a letter to themselves, 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.960 and the letters were then sealed and collected, and they 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:31.040 were to be handed out to them at an intern 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:36.600 retreat in January, so six months into their internship. And 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.840 the idea of it was they would open these letters 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.200 six months down the road and they would just see 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:47.920 how far they had come. And as I sat there 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:53.479 watching them, you know, hunched earnestly over these letters, I 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:59.800 had this very powerful feeling of wanting to address my 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.920 younger self when I was in their shoes thirty years earlier, 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:09.440 and particularly as a woman, because in fact, I was 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.000 delighted to see that more than half of the incoming 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:16.280 interns in the room were women. Why did you decide 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:22.199 to focus on impostor syndrome in particular, because what I 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:26.800 realized as I was writing this letter to myself, you know, 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.600 is that the thing I wished I had known starting 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:38.400 out was that while I would experience some sexism as 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:43.560 a woman in a male dominated profession, that the thing 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:48.880 that would cause me the most conflict would be a 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:53.920 voice in my head perpetually telling me that I wasn't 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.600 good enough, that I wasn't as good as my peers, 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.200 and that even and this was really the sort of 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:05.800 the steps further, that the things I was good at 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.880 didn't count particularly. Yeah, you write in your article that 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.280 this feeling of being a fraud is more insidious than 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.880 sexism itself. I'm wondering why you think female physicians in 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:22.839 particular need to know about this imposter syndrome feeling. Well, 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:27.960 I don't want to underplay the damage that overt sexism 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:31.559 can do. I mean, we have to remember that even today, 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:35.000 as I point out in the essay, Um, you know, 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:39.720 women in medicine have not achieved pay equality with men. 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:45.880 We are grossly underrepresented in leadership positions, even in fields 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.640 where we represent the majority, like pediatrics and O. B. G. W. Anne. 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:57.280 But for me, uh, personally, the piece that was so 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:04.080 damaging was this constant and nagging feeling of self doubt, 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:08.560 and as to why it's more in women, you know, 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.240 I think that what it has to do with is 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:19.080 having internalized the overt sexism. So the two things aren't 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.240 really different. You understand what I mean by that, They're 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.720 not completely separate issues. And I've gotten so much male 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.280 since this piece appeared, and from all around the world, 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.680 and most of it is from women, though many men 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.520 and many older women, and uh indeed many people not 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.240 in medicine have at all have told me that it 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:45.360 spoke to them. But the ones that I find most 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:51.400 heartbreaking are from young women, particularly uh, young women of color, 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.199 who tell me I don't feel I will ever be accepted, 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.760 I will ever be good enough, and that, of course, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:05.560 is an internalization of not only sexism, but racism. The 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.520 other piece of this, though, is not only self doubt, 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.840 but this second part that I referred to, which is 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.000 feeling that you know, it's a variation on the old 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.360 gradual marks line. I wouldn't join a club that would 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.960 have me for a member, which is, if I am 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:28.320 good at something, it must not be worth much. I 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:31.440 have a friend who calls this the syndrome of yeah, 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.640 I got in, but that was the year they didn't 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.880 have very many applicants or a sort of love. We 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:41.560 might call it asterisk syndrome. Yeah, I got that position, 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.640 but you know, there must have been some reason I 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:49.000 got it, and not on my merit. And you know, 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:53.320 I think, particularly for women in medicine, there is this 0:13:53.480 --> 0:14:00.360 long tradition of a false psychotomy between compassion and combat sense, 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:07.040 and that is gendered. So uh many years ago, the 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.920 way that played out was that the doctors were men 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.720 and the nurses were women, and the doctors gave the 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:19.720 orders and knew the stuff, and the nurses, who were women, 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:25.120 provided the hands on compassionate care. Well, of course that 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.680 was a sort of a stereotype, but it was never 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.480 really true, and it still isn't true. I think there 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.000 are a lot of women and this certainly has been 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.840 a theme in my inner life during my long career. 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:42.600 I think, well, you know, the reason I'm good at 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:46.320 this is that I'm a good listener and I'm empathic. 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:50.720 But anybody could do that. That's not really an important skill, 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:56.040 except that it's a very important skill, and not everybody 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.320 can do that. And so, as I said in the piece, 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:05.040 my observation is that women not only focus on our 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:10.200 deficiencies or our self perceived deficiencies. We also denigrate our 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:15.000 own strengths. It sounds like now you have perspective to 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.160 appreciate the skills that you do have, including some of 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.240 these more empathic skills that maybe the labor force are 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.280 people around us don't recognize as real work. But in 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.720 your piece you also talk about how you overcompensated for 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.480 this feeling, and you you did all these things that 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.160 you tried to give yourself more experience, and that that 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:38.760 didn't really work. At what point did you just stop 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.840 doing that? I wish I could tell you that that 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:48.760 it wasn't so recently, but it really is rather recent. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.760 And you know, it's funny, as I was writing this piece, 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.800 this pattern that I really hadn't thought about as a 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:01.440 pattern became clear to me just as I was writing it. 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:05.840 This overcompensation. You know. One of the examples I give 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:12.160 is that I decided I should specialize in gastronrology because 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.720 guesst aronrologists do stuff, and if you do stuff, then 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:21.280 your competency could never possibly be questioned. The only problem 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:25.120 was I wasn't interested in guest rhonrology, so it took 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:30.360 me a really, really long time to begin to be 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:36.520 true to myself. And I think what ultimately I came 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.360 to terms with is that, you know, in primary care, 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.240 there are patients I've been you know, seeing and had 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.680 a relationship with for twenty five years at this point, 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:53.240 and I realized that the relationship that I build with 0:16:53.440 --> 0:17:00.840 them is not an insignificant part of their healing. You know, this, 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:05.440 this empathy thing, this relationship building thing, this communication thing, 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:09.440 this isn't just the warm, squishy, you know, extra stuff. 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:15.520 This is really at the center of medicine. And I think, 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.959 you know, once I came to terms with that, I 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:23.000 sort of let go of some of the perfectionism which 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:27.000 made me feel that I was supposed to be everything. 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.320 I was supposed to have an A plus in every 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:35.359 every possible subject, and I realized that people have different strengths, 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:40.720 and my particular strength is not an insignificant one. I 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:45.920 wonder how much it actually helped to just get more experienced, 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.439 to log more years in your career. You know, we 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.399 rattled off your accomplishments at the top of the of 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.840 the segment, but you are obviously very good and very 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:57.199 experienced and have all the credentials. Now, how did that 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:02.280 affect the feeling of imposter syndrome. Well, it's not so 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:09.840 much accumulating accolades as accumulating years. And I think you know, 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:15.120 as the years have gone by, I've been both less 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:21.439 reticent about admitting my own imperfections uh and vulnerabilities, and 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:24.080 also on the other side of the coin, I'm less 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:28.760 reticent about tooting my own warrant, which women are not 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:33.000 as good at as we should be um with regard 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.560 to those accolades, I have to tell you, getting back 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.840 to the very first question you asked me, which is 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.959 why did I put this in letter form? It felt 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:48.000 intuitively important to me to be able to sign this 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:53.840 letter to hand COVID, m D, Massachusetts General Hospital, Harvard 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.760 Medical School, and to say, hey, here I am, you know, 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:04.920 at the Mecca, and I have had these thoughts. I've 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:09.119 had them a lot. And the response I've gone to 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:14.560 this piece tells me that, you know, that felt validating 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.560 for people, and I feel good about that. I feel 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.800 good about the response, but I also, of course feel 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.840 a little sad that thirty years down the road, particularly 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:30.720 young women are still struggling so mightily with this. Yeah, 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:32.399 I think that a lot of young women in all 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.600 professions feel this. I feel this. I know Francesca has 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:43.120 felt it, and I think, yeah, well it's impossible statistically, UM, 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.800 naming it's really important, and knowing that other are really 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.640 accomplished people and women experience it feels good to hear. 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.680 But I'm wondering what is the advice for someone young 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.360 who has these feelings but we don't really know how 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:02.800 to overcome? Oh golly, well, it's money just to again. Um. 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:07.680 I keep going back to these many, many emails I've received. 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:10.800 I've just been so moved by them. What I'm hearing 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.520 is a lot of isolation. I'm hearing a lot of 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.640 I've never talked with anybody about this before, and yet 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:22.919 there are so many people who feel this way that 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:28.199 I've got to think that at least a partial remedy 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:34.080 is for young women or young professionals of both genders 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.760 to be gathering and talking openly about this kind of stuff. 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.240 I think that would help a lot. I mean, if 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:48.520 ten of your young colleagues got together and have this conversation, 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.760 don't you think that that would go a long way 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:58.439 to sort of feeling less isolated, stigmatized? Torture it in 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.439 your own head I saw only would have you know 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.680 when I was starting out, of course, there was absolutely 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:08.399 no outlet for that. Then, yeah, when we started talking 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:11.760 about this episode we're working on to people, there were 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:14.199 definitely a few people who thought who told us that 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.199 they didn't even know there was a name for this feeling. 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.879 So so talking about it, we often come to that 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:22.800 traite conclusion that talking about talking about things more as 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:24.840 the answer. But in this case, it really seems like 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:26.560 putting a name on it is a big part of 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.040 understanding how universal it is. And so I mean, we 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:32.640 we we laughed before when I said, well, we can't, 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:36.199 statistically speaking, we can't all be fraud But you know, 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:41.399 I think, um as with anything you you ruminate over 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:46.199 and don't discuss openly, uh, you know, it begins to 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.040 sort of take on a life of its own in 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:51.879 your head, and you you know, you don't get a 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:57.040 reality check about it. And I think, you know, if 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:02.560 everybody feels this way, and then you know, clearly it's 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:06.000 a pretty normal way to feel. And of course what 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:11.720 compounds feeling like an impostor is the shame of feeling 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.640 that you're the only one who feels that way, which, 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:19.200 of course you're not well. Thank you for helping us 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:23.639 fight that shame and talk about it. You're open. You 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:28.800 guys got to plan the party, impostor's syndrome party. We'll 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:32.479 believe me, they'll they'll be standing room only. You're really 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.240 thank you so much for talking to us, Susan Oh, 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:42.399 it's my pleasure. So Dr Covin is at the end 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:46.000 of her career, and she said, like basically last month 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.440 she got over her impostors syndrome. You could feel kind 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.680 of depressed by hearing somebody say that, you know, even 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:56.560 with all that success, they still experience impostor syndrome. But 0:22:56.760 --> 0:23:00.200 I actually think that that's just proof that succe us 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.960 itself isn't the cure to this thing. So it must 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:06.240 not be about whether or not you're really a fake, 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.040 and that actually, if you can look at somebody like 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:12.440 that and say, Okay, they have all the credentials and 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:15.159 they still have these worries, so there must be another 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:18.240 reason for it. And to me, what I took away 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:21.280 from everything she said was that it doesn't really matter 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:24.720 where you are in your career or how good you 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:29.160 are even at something um you probably are kind of 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:31.960 you probably are worse at some things than some of 0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:34.880 your colleagues, you're probably also better at some things then 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.760 you give yourself credit for. And the question of whether 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:42.359 or not you're like for real is so unproductive and 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.240 is not going to help you with the ultimate thing 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:48.680 that you want, which is to get really good. So 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:52.560 you may as well put it aside altogether and Impostor's syndrome, 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:56.400 banish Impastor's dreme from brain. And it's hard, but it's hard, 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:59.240 but I mean, yeah, knowing it exists, and then maybe 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:01.800 every time the thought creeps into your brain you can say, 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:04.320 this is not a real thing. Yeah, like it's it's 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:06.919 easier send thing done, to stop thinking about something. But 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:09.840 if you if you're armed with the knowledge that like 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:13.760 people feel this way even when they're really experienced, that 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:19.320 other people are all feeling the same way, and you 0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:22.520 know all this, then you can say, Okay, that feeling 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:24.240 is there, let me put it aside and just do 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:27.800 my job. I like this. It's a very like therapist 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:30.359 thing to say, I feel like we really dug in 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:35.840 the highly therapeutic episode. Um, let's do some non therapeutic 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:42.240 half big takes, half fake takes. If you would like 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:44.879 us to hear your half baked take. You can tweet 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:46.560 it at us, or you can call and leave a 0:24:46.560 --> 0:24:49.920 message on our voicemail. It's two one to six seven 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:53.720 zero one six six. This week, we found a half 0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:58.600 bag take in the wild. Becca, let's explain to our 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:01.840 listeners what that is. So sometimes we'll be reading the 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:04.480 internet and see what we think would make a great 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:07.720 half bake take that somebody has tweeted, are they've written 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:11.399 an article, and we share with each other, but you know, 0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:13.399 we don't have there's nowhere for it to live in 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:16.440 our world. So I saw really great when this week 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:19.040 on Jezebel that I thought would make a perfect half 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:21.240