Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jana Kramer and I'mheart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2: Okay, so super excited about this week's episode. We have
Speaker 2: Zach Clark coming on the show. He was the winner
Speaker 2: of Tasha's season of The Recent Bachelorette, so we're super
Speaker 2: excited to talk all about his road to recovery from
Speaker 2: his addictions and just.
Speaker 3: His road to being the victor on the Bachelorette. The Victor,
Speaker 3: the Victor.
Speaker 2: The Victor. I also super excited because we have Pittsburgh
Speaker 2: Pam joining us today. Hey, Pittsburgh baby. So Pammy is
Speaker 2: a Pamelin. Sorryam Pammy. Pamelin is an amazing friend. We
Speaker 2: actually met in Los Angeles and then I told her,
Speaker 2: you know, we were moving to Nashville. And then when
Speaker 2: she was debating moving, I was like, come move in
Speaker 2: our sub So now we're neighbors and it's.
Speaker 3: Just our daughters are bestie. Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the daughters are besties. She's just extraordinary of everything
Speaker 2: and crafts. Honestly, like I said this the other day
Speaker 2: when I was with the kids, how do you Because
Speaker 2: I'm just not a crafty mom, and sometimes I feel
Speaker 2: really bad about that, Like I feel I feel guilty.
Speaker 1: We all have our strengths, my dear.
Speaker 3: Well, and yeah, your strengths kind of go across the
Speaker 3: board here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because your strengths are like, I mean, you like
Speaker 2: the stuff that you do in the neighborhood with the kids,
Speaker 2: and even when Jolie comes over, it's like, oh man,
Speaker 2: you made that over at you know, at Pamlin's house,
Speaker 2: and like the kids come here and they're like, we
Speaker 2: watched Aladdin. So I'm like, out, how do you I mean,
Speaker 2: do you just love doing arts and crafts or was
Speaker 2: it something that your mom did with you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was something like I like grew
Speaker 1: up doing like my mom is definitely you know, like that,
Speaker 1: and so I think, yeah, you're just like taught and
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like all you know. So then
Speaker 1: I had these like two little girls and and you know,
Speaker 1: started doing it and now I like created these monsters
Speaker 1: where it's like if we're not making something super fun
Speaker 1: or doing something creative, They're like, why aren't we doing
Speaker 1: you know, crafts today? And I'm like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: what have I done? But it's definitely fun. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: do need a break.
Speaker 3: So you set the standard so high so early that
Speaker 3: there's no way back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all my like friends are like, man, you really
Speaker 1: messed up, like you just you know you did it wrong.
Speaker 2: I mean set them low.
Speaker 3: You guys are the ones where you know, we have
Speaker 3: a lot of neighborhood kids that are around the same age.
Speaker 3: And when you know, your oldest comes to the bus
Speaker 3: stop and the other kids, I'll come to the bus
Speaker 3: stop like look her up and down, say I say
Speaker 3: all the Yeah, first of all, your daughter's dressed better
Speaker 3: than the adults, and the.
Speaker 2: Pamelin goes, oh, I made that from like the curtains
Speaker 2: right last night.
Speaker 3: And then like say, all the kids have like a
Speaker 3: science project. Everyone else would have like rubber bands and
Speaker 3: like some sticks or something, and Pamelin would have to
Speaker 3: get like a trailer to haul like her daughters up
Speaker 3: the street because it's so big and perfect. And oh,
Speaker 3: you guys are this is the way.
Speaker 1: It is too kind.
Speaker 2: And you have a book coming out. I do tell
Speaker 2: us about the kid's book coming up. Thanks, Usually it's
Speaker 2: a it's a kid's book, but also you go you explain.
Speaker 1: It, Okay. So the book is called Gratitude the Great
Speaker 1: and it is a children's picture book, but it's all
Speaker 1: about gratitude and kind of you know, ways to incorporate
Speaker 1: daily gratitude rituals, you know, into your lives. And we
Speaker 1: all know that, like children aren't just going to come
Speaker 1: up with these things. It's the parents that have to
Speaker 1: initiate it. And really you know, instill that message like
Speaker 1: into children early, and it's just so much more than
Speaker 1: saying like thank you. That's not like the gratitude that
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. I'm talking about like gratitude from your
Speaker 1: soul and like knowing, like you know, feeling actual gratitude,
Speaker 1: like you know, somebody did something so nice for you.
Speaker 1: Like let's feel it because it's a feeling, and then
Speaker 1: let's act on it by you know, writing a note
Speaker 1: or making sure we you know, say special things to people.
Speaker 1: But there's all these different rituals that like we do
Speaker 1: as a family that I also like incorporate into this
Speaker 1: like very special story. And you know, again it is
Speaker 1: a kid's book, but it's like so good. Like I
Speaker 1: said before, you know, the best virtues in the world
Speaker 1: are not taught, they're caught. So it's like we as
Speaker 1: parents have to live these lives you know of gratitude
Speaker 1: and all these other amazing virtues out there and then
Speaker 1: our kids will just follow. And you know, for me,
Speaker 1: gratitude I call it like the greatest natural superpower in
Speaker 1: the world. It is does not discriminate, It is free
Speaker 1: to the entire universe, and it can change your life,
Speaker 1: like if you start your foundation as a child living
Speaker 1: in gratitude it, I mean there's science behind it. You know,
Speaker 1: it will forever like change the trajectory of your life.
Speaker 1: And so I'm so passionate about it. It's changed my life.
Speaker 1: So I wrote a children's book about it and it's
Speaker 1: coming out May.
Speaker 2: Fourth, So they should follow you on your Instagram.
Speaker 1: Yes, House of Bachery and also Gratitude the Great. I
Speaker 1: now have an Instagram handle for that.
Speaker 4: Yay.
Speaker 3: How do you are How do you with with your daughters?
Speaker 3: Because I feel like, you know, it'll be simple or
Speaker 3: easier to teach her or show them how to be
Speaker 3: grateful or or express gratitude when someone does something nice
Speaker 3: for you right and do something in return out of gratitude.
Speaker 3: How do you do it where it's more of a
Speaker 3: because you know, as adults, if you do some work,
Speaker 3: you're able to have this moments of gratitude where Jane
Speaker 3: and I will share them. They'll just kind of come
Speaker 3: right Okay, It's almost like a daydream and say, man,
Speaker 3: I'm just so grateful for where my life is high
Speaker 3: on this life right like in that moment. So have
Speaker 3: you addressed that with your girls? And how do you
Speaker 3: kind of you know, help push them along to understand
Speaker 3: that concept of yes.
Speaker 1: Right, because like when you know little kids, it's a
Speaker 1: it's a lot of the tangible like present things, right.
Speaker 1: And so one thing we do we call it pillow chat,
Speaker 1: and it's at night and this is like in the book,
Speaker 1: but we have this heart crystal and we think that
Speaker 1: like you know, crystals like you know, send out all
Speaker 1: this great like energy. And so we each hold the
Speaker 1: crystal and we talk about like something that we were
Speaker 1: like grateful for that happened today, or you know, a
Speaker 1: feeling that we were grateful for today. So it's not
Speaker 1: about like I got a you know, I got a
Speaker 1: new lol doll, right, It's nothing like that. And so
Speaker 1: you know, I always go first to kind of like
Speaker 1: set the tone, and it's you know, nothing that's tangible.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I'm so grateful for picking those
Speaker 1: flout beautiful flowers with you on our special mommy and
Speaker 1: daughter walk today, and then they kind of then go
Speaker 1: with that same theme. It's like that kid in class
Speaker 1: who like, you know, what's your favorite thing? The one
Speaker 1: first kid says, then all the kids say the same thing.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like set in the tone. So
Speaker 1: we do that every night. And then what I noticed
Speaker 1: we've been doing it for years, and what I noticed
Speaker 1: is then they're able to kind of acknowledge those special
Speaker 1: moments and feelings. Then like throughout the day, like I
Speaker 1: mean so many times, you know, me and Harlowe will
Speaker 1: be driving and she's like, Mommy, these trees are so beautiful,
Speaker 1: Like I'm so grateful to see them. That's you know
Speaker 1: that Then it just like I was saying that, it
Speaker 1: just kind of snowballs and it just becomes your normal life.
Speaker 1: And then you know, and then when you get older
Speaker 1: and tough things start to happen, you know, and you're
Speaker 1: like salty at the world, you know, because something bad happened.
Speaker 1: You can then hopefully like pull in those tools to
Speaker 1: find the beauty and things that you know money can't
Speaker 1: buy or.
Speaker 3: That's so awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. And Mike and I have kind
Speaker 2: of similar to that, like we've been saying every morning,
Speaker 2: like I'm grateful for you, and it kind of just
Speaker 2: sets the tone of the day so that we're not
Speaker 2: high on like negative energy or you know, it's just
Speaker 2: like we're acknowledging each other taking a.
Speaker 3: Second to yeah, we just wanted to start the day.
Speaker 3: We just found ourselves like contesting each other early in
Speaker 3: the day at times like why it's like why can't
Speaker 3: we just start with like almost like a clean state, right,
Speaker 3: so even if the night before wasn't great or the
Speaker 3: day before wasn't great, refreshing that morning being like, look,
Speaker 3: I'm grateful for you because at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: I am, I appreciate you whatever it is.
Speaker 1: And also like you know, just like the energy of
Speaker 1: that coming out of your mouth and sending that message
Speaker 1: to the universe, you know, is going to get like
Speaker 1: bounced back to you. And so it's kind of like
Speaker 1: if you're ever thinking something that's nice, say it, say
Speaker 1: it to anybody.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're so good at that. I feel like Janna,
Speaker 1: You're always like, you know, you guys are so such
Speaker 1: nice win the world. But it really, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: makes a difference, And so I just wanted to do
Speaker 1: this book to try to like just keep you know,
Speaker 1: encouraging parents, like this is our job, you know, and
Speaker 1: we need a reminder all the time.
Speaker 2: You're right, Well, I love you, Pittsburgh Pam, thanks for
Speaker 2: coming on. You're also got a big, big Bachelorette Bachelor fan. Yes,
Speaker 2: so excited to get Zach Clark on. Let's take a
Speaker 2: break and then we'll get him on.
Speaker 3: All right, so we have mister Bachelorette winner himself, Zach
Speaker 3: Clark with us on the show to say, today, Zach,
Speaker 3: how you doing, man.
Speaker 4: I'm good, Mike, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2: I was really excited about you. First of all, I
Speaker 2: was a huge fan of you on the show. I've
Speaker 2: I got to be honest and Pittsburgh Pam knows this.
Speaker 2: I I never really watched an entire season. I usually
Speaker 2: watch like the beginning and then I'll maybe watch the end.
Speaker 2: But Tasha was by far the best Bachelorette ever. I mean,
Speaker 2: she was just really confident. She was you know, just
Speaker 2: so true. And I loved watching you because I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: thank you, like someone that has depth and that has
Speaker 2: a journey and has been through and you know, but
Speaker 2: you come in with such confidence, and I remember telling
Speaker 2: my husband, I was like, this is my favorite dude
Speaker 2: right here. I hope he wins Like he's awesome. I
Speaker 2: just love your whole journey. And then obviously we talk
Speaker 2: a lot about addiction on the show, so I'm just
Speaker 2: excited to get in on all of it right now.
Speaker 2: But so, yeah, I'm really excited. I guess one of
Speaker 2: the things that I was kind of curious was because
Speaker 2: you seemed so confident describing your journey with Taysha, did
Speaker 2: you because it didn't come off like you were nervous
Speaker 2: at all. I mean, are you just kind of like,
Speaker 2: this is my life and this is what I've been
Speaker 2: through in the addictions, and or were you nervous telling
Speaker 2: her that, thinking, oh man, she might send me home.
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean my attitude around that was just
Speaker 4: like any other date I've been on, right, Like, if
Speaker 4: she's not going to love me for who I am,
Speaker 4: then it's better that we we end this thing now,
Speaker 4: then get into it and come to find out that
Speaker 4: there's going to be an issue there. So for me, like,
Speaker 4: I'm really proud of who I am and it's a
Speaker 4: huge part of me. My recovery obviously, and it allows
Speaker 4: me to live the badass next level of life that
Speaker 4: I get to live. So yeah, I was just going
Speaker 4: to lay it all out there and she obviously. That
Speaker 4: was one of the things that I was most attracted
Speaker 4: to in her, is that not only with me, but
Speaker 4: with all the guys there, she was able to take
Speaker 4: on a lot of you know, pold space for us,
Speaker 4: and I think you saw there were some guys there
Speaker 4: who've been through some stuff. So I definitely noticed that
Speaker 4: early on with her.
Speaker 3: Was that when you when you talked about the addiction
Speaker 3: in your past and everything, you know, whether on screen
Speaker 3: or off, did she show a lot of understanding Because
Speaker 3: there's some people that don't really understand the concept unless
Speaker 3: they're directly affected by addiction or they just have never
Speaker 3: experienced any kind of it. So was she understanding of
Speaker 3: the whole concept of what it means and all that?
Speaker 4: She was definitely open minded to it. You know, it's funny, Mike,
Speaker 4: I think my experience in life has told me usually
Speaker 4: you tell someone you're a drug addict or an alcoholic
Speaker 4: or whatever it is, and it goes one of two ways.
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, they know that there's a family
Speaker 4: member or someone that they've been associated with in their
Speaker 4: lives that have struggled with it, and so they have,
Speaker 4: you know, some knowledge or education around the topic, or
Speaker 4: they know nothing about it and they want to throw
Speaker 4: you in this bucket of like this dude is weird
Speaker 4: or sick or whatever it is. And it's funny. She
Speaker 4: was kind of in the middle, like she didn't have
Speaker 4: any direct I think, experience with it, but she definitely
Speaker 4: had an open mind and she asked her all the
Speaker 4: right questions and some of the things you hear earlier.
Speaker 4: I'm like, can I drink and then kiss you? I'm like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: that's yeah.
Speaker 3: That she was conscious of even that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, she's a sweetheart.
Speaker 2: How was it when you did the hometown dates because
Speaker 2: I don't remember. I don't Maybe you guys did talk
Speaker 2: about it, but I don't remember being aired. Was that
Speaker 2: something that you talked about with her dad.
Speaker 4: Or so I'm trying to think how that played. First
Speaker 4: of all the hometowns, you know, I caught a lot
Speaker 4: of because I did mine in New York City quote unquote,
Speaker 4: and I'm from Philly, so Philly was not happy.
Speaker 1: I read that not messing with Philly.
Speaker 4: It's all right, it's a long life. I'll make it
Speaker 4: up to him. No, I think her dad. Yes, I
Speaker 4: got into what I do for work with her old man,
Speaker 4: and I think that spoke to my just general experience
Speaker 4: in life. It's kind of like, Okay, I run these
Speaker 4: programs and do interventions and help people get sober. Okay,
Speaker 4: how did you get involved in that? Then that always
Speaker 4: leads into I don't really have much to hide behind
Speaker 4: because it's not like I'm sober and I work in finance.
Speaker 4: I'm sober and I work in the feet. It's like
Speaker 4: it kind of hits you right in the face. So
Speaker 4: we got into it, and you know, he was super
Speaker 4: open minded to it all, which I appreciated.
Speaker 3: Was you know, in release recovery, which is which is
Speaker 3: the you know what you founded with your buddy justin.
Speaker 3: Is it twelve step based or is there a lot
Speaker 3: of other elements to it.
Speaker 4: Look, we're big believers in twelve step. You know, we've
Speaker 4: seen we've seen the twelve steps obviously change a lot
Speaker 4: of lives. And it's crazy to think that like, you know,
Speaker 4: the stockbroker and this doctor back in the nineteen thirties,
Speaker 4: like got together and wrote the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous,
Speaker 4: and that's still like getting a ton of people sober today.
Speaker 4: But I will say that, you know, in our programs
Speaker 4: there are guys and girls that come in that are
Speaker 4: super resistant to twelve Step and it's our job to
Speaker 4: kind of, you know, just be shurpas and tell them that,
Speaker 4: like that's okay, you know, and there's other programs, there's
Speaker 4: other ways to get connected. But it's not just because
Speaker 4: you're not into twelve step recovery does not mean you
Speaker 4: have an excuse to not get connected to other human beings.
Speaker 4: You know, like we're not going to let that be
Speaker 4: a front. And we're very clear on that that that
Speaker 4: you know, from from from the outset.
Speaker 3: Have you have you had people come through that have
Speaker 3: suffered from sex and love addiction?
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, man, Like we always we always talk
Speaker 4: about right like seven it's kind of like seven trash
Speaker 4: cans five with I mean a lot of times when
Speaker 4: when we see people get sober, that's when a sex
Speaker 4: edition flares up or eat sorder flares up. And you know,
Speaker 4: I never personally had the sex thing. I know a
Speaker 4: lot of people who have, and it's real, Mike, I
Speaker 4: read a little bit about you. Man, congrats on some
Speaker 4: of the stuff you're doing. It's inspiring for sure, and
Speaker 4: for a man to come out and be open with
Speaker 4: that stuff, it's cool. You know, Like I need guys
Speaker 4: like you in my corner, So no question right.
Speaker 3: Back at you.
Speaker 2: I'm curious though about because I always like feel for
Speaker 2: Mike because if someone says, yeah, I'm an alcoholic or
Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm in I was a drug addict,
Speaker 2: they're like, oh man, I'm so sorry. But when Mike
Speaker 2: says he's a sex addict, people are like, oh, like,
Speaker 2: it's it's.
Speaker 3: Like this there's still a stigma around it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, where it's they either don't believe it or they
Speaker 2: think it's an excuse or I mean, how are I guess,
Speaker 2: like with your recovery and addiction program you're doing, it's like,
Speaker 2: how how are you helping not like normalize this addiction,
Speaker 2: but also to make the person not feel so shameful
Speaker 2: and with any of their addictions.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a big deal for me, and I think
Speaker 4: it's one of the things that as my career my
Speaker 4: life continues to evolve, that word stigma. I don't even
Speaker 4: know how I feel about it right, Like, sometimes I
Speaker 4: feel like when I use that word, it stigmatizes it
Speaker 4: more almost, you know, because of just like the sound,
Speaker 4: I don't know, something weird with that word. It's like
Speaker 4: I feel like we're actually doing ourselves at disservice. I mean,
Speaker 4: I think for me, that just comes back to sharing
Speaker 4: my experience with people, like really being able to sit
Speaker 4: them down and you know, aside from getting engagitation having
Speaker 4: this beautiful love story unfold, like, one of the beautiful
Speaker 4: things that's come of the show is just this ability
Speaker 4: to say to people who are in early recovery, like, look,
Speaker 4: literally anything is possible if you just fasten your seatbelt
Speaker 4: and do some of these things and have a willingness
Speaker 4: to be honest and share with people. And I think
Speaker 4: it's one of the biggest hurdles that we face in
Speaker 4: early recovery. It's just that guilt, that shame. How do
Speaker 4: I date? How do I go out and have a drink?
Speaker 4: You know, certainly with the sex addiction thing, and guys
Speaker 4: that I know who have struggled with that, yeah, there's
Speaker 4: a lot of guilt and shame around that, and then
Speaker 4: for their partner, you know, sticking it out with them
Speaker 4: and all that that comes with it and having kid.
Speaker 4: You know, it's messy and it's gnarly, but there's hope
Speaker 4: for sure.
Speaker 3: With you being in recovery for the past even so
Speaker 3: ever since what twenty.
Speaker 4: Eleven, Yeah, August twenty eleven.
Speaker 3: So for the last you know, going on ten years
Speaker 3: and this being your your career too, do you find
Speaker 3: it difficult to not, like, say, put yourself on the
Speaker 3: show for instance, where you have all these guys who
Speaker 3: are drinking, are doing these things where you like try
Speaker 3: not to be judgmental, be like, man, that guy probably
Speaker 3: needs to come to my program, or like how do
Speaker 3: you kind of compartmentalize or separate that so you don't
Speaker 3: have this like judgmental mindset in certain moments like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've had to really learn to, you know, keep
Speaker 4: to myself on some of that stuff and just be
Speaker 4: be there when people need me, you know. And I
Speaker 4: think some of my best work has been done by
Speaker 4: me saying nothing at all and just having people watch
Speaker 4: the way that I live. And I've had more people
Speaker 4: come back to me and say, it wasn't what you
Speaker 4: what you said, It's more of what I saw, you know,
Speaker 4: that was attractive to the way you were living your life. Typically,
Speaker 4: when I call someone out on their sir have an opinion,
Speaker 4: it doesn't go well, you know, it just doesn't because
Speaker 4: they're not ready to hear it.
Speaker 3: No, aleks don't like to be called out. Come on.
Speaker 1: I can see that some of the greatest virtues are
Speaker 1: you know, caught, not taught. It's like, you know, by
Speaker 1: showing is probably better than calling out, for sure. I
Speaker 1: love that.
Speaker 2: I'm curious, like you know, because Tasha isn't doesn't know
Speaker 2: this world as much. Obviously you're helping her. Is there
Speaker 2: resources that you know, do you do you think she
Speaker 2: should go to or have you encouraged her to go
Speaker 2: to like an alan On or any of those places
Speaker 2: so that she can understand or learn more about, you know,
Speaker 2: just behaviors and things like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, it's uh, it's it's super cool. I mean, like, yes,
Speaker 4: obviously there's great resources out there with with with anan
Speaker 4: on and on and just family support groups and a
Speaker 4: lot of treatment programs, have you know, uh, parents support
Speaker 4: groups and that type of thing, or partner support groups.
Speaker 4: So those things are all things that we've started to discuss,
Speaker 4: and I think we'll get into a little bit more
Speaker 4: obviously exposing herself to to my personal recovery and what
Speaker 4: that looks like. And then you know, as she gets
Speaker 4: to know some of my friends, you know, like going
Speaker 4: on a trip with a couple of my buddies who
Speaker 4: are sober and like their wives, their partners are not
Speaker 4: like being able to connect with them on that level,
Speaker 4: to show that like one, you know, we have a
Speaker 4: load of fun stille and we're not like my blankets.
Speaker 4: And two that she's not alone right, like that there's
Speaker 4: other people out there, Like we always joke every wedding
Speaker 4: I go to, I'm the last man standing. All the
Speaker 4: other people are blacked out.
Speaker 2: I love that. What's the hardest part of sobriety for you? Like,
Speaker 2: what's the biggest challenge with staying sober?
Speaker 4: I get that question a lot, and I mean it
Speaker 4: might sound untrue, but the hardest part of sobriety was
Speaker 4: living the way I used to live. You know, like this,
Speaker 4: this this thing is not hard to do on a
Speaker 4: daily basis, Like the obsession to drinking drug for me
Speaker 4: has has has like lifted you know, I don't I
Speaker 4: don't think about that stuff. I guess if I had
Speaker 4: to say one thing, like I feel a lot, you know,
Speaker 4: I feel a lot. It's just like I feel other
Speaker 4: people that feel my and uh, you know, like I'm
Speaker 4: a I'm a I'm a guy that lives my life.
Speaker 4: Like I always feel like I'm missing out on something,
Speaker 4: like I'm a hard charger. But even if I had
Speaker 4: like some crazy ass day, like I'll think about like
Speaker 4: the one shot I missed, you know, and that's just
Speaker 4: me wanting to be perfect and having a little compassion
Speaker 4: for myself.
Speaker 1: So and were you like that at all before the addictions?
Speaker 1: Like did you have cause you seem like you have
Speaker 1: this like amazing zest for life and just like you know,
Speaker 1: full of joy and this light were you were there
Speaker 1: pieces of you like that before and then you kind
Speaker 1: of just found them again? Or what's that about?
Speaker 4: Hell? Yeah, I mean I had a lot of fun
Speaker 4: with me. Like in high school, I was like, you know,
Speaker 4: my superlative was life of the party.
Speaker 1: You know, and like I figured, yeah.
Speaker 4: You know, and so it was fun for a while.
Speaker 4: It was fun for a long time. And I still
Speaker 4: to this day at people in my life that I'll say, dude,
Speaker 4: like you didn't have an issue. I was like, bro,
Speaker 4: you were not out on the street with me doing
Speaker 4: what I was doing, Like I definitely let's just stop
Speaker 4: it right there. So yeah, I think there's but there's
Speaker 4: also I think the other things, like when I did
Speaker 4: get sober and I did start to, you know, live
Speaker 4: a different way, it was hard for some of those
Speaker 4: people in my life, Like there were pieces of me
Speaker 4: that definitely died, you know, and like in some areas
Speaker 4: I was a little bit more serious and a little
Speaker 4: bit more reserved, and some of my closest friends and
Speaker 4: family had to say, like, are you okay? Are you good?
Speaker 4: Everything right? I'm like, yeah, I'm cool, Like I'm just
Speaker 4: not faced, you know.
Speaker 3: Like so uh, Zach, when was because I feel like,
Speaker 3: you know, we can relate in a way in a
Speaker 3: lot of ways. But also, you know, obviously there's a
Speaker 3: lot of spotlight on you right now and with the
Speaker 3: addiction and with your past and and your journey. You know,
Speaker 3: I've I've had issues with the spotlight on me as
Speaker 3: well around my addictions and everything. And I'm trying to
Speaker 3: be a pillar of support for other men out there
Speaker 3: who struggle with addiction, let alone sex addiction. And but
Speaker 3: I find myself because you know, I've been in the
Speaker 3: program four years year sobriety, but I find myself still
Speaker 3: doubting my own you know, not my own recovery strengthen things,
Speaker 3: but just doubting myself where it's like, why would someone
Speaker 3: want to like hear from me, Like why would someone
Speaker 3: want to you know, learn from me? Because I make
Speaker 3: up when you have ten years, it's a lot easier.
Speaker 3: So I guess my question is, at what point during
Speaker 3: your recovery did you start to see like really let
Speaker 3: go of that shame and feel confident in helping more
Speaker 3: people see, you know, be recovered.
Speaker 4: I think the old saying is like at five years
Speaker 4: you get your marbles back, so not to but definitely
Speaker 4: that first year, like my brain just needed to heal,
Speaker 4: Like I just needed to like take a time out.
Speaker 4: And then I think after that, like I really started
Speaker 4: to find my footing with some of my language. And
Speaker 4: you know, I'm a people pleaser by nature, so you know,
Speaker 4: I learned how to say no, you know, and that
Speaker 4: was huge for me. And I really just leaned into
Speaker 4: the fact that like, yeah, you know, there's a lot
Speaker 4: of smart ass people out there with Ivy League degrees
Speaker 4: and whatever else. It is but like, my greatest experience
Speaker 4: or my greatest asset is my experience and just leaning
Speaker 4: into that and like you know if you don't, I mean,
Speaker 4: you know how it is, Mike, Like, I had to
Speaker 4: learn how to be honest. I had to learn how
Speaker 4: to like truly be honest and not care what the
Speaker 4: other person said and then actually like say things that
Speaker 4: I used to be in so much fear about and
Speaker 4: have the person across the table act like, oh, that's cool.
Speaker 4: I'm like, wait, you're not gonna like I'm not in trouble.
Speaker 4: I didn't do something wrong here.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, story of my life right there.
Speaker 2: I mean that right there what you just said, because
Speaker 2: that's you. You were always afraid that you were going
Speaker 2: to get in trouble. It's like, no, just be honest.
Speaker 2: You know, for anyone that's listening that is having a
Speaker 2: hard time, what are what are some of the first
Speaker 2: steps to to you know, to just be more honest,
Speaker 2: and where can they find help? Like what are some
Speaker 2: great resources and talk about you know, what you're doing
Speaker 2: at release recovery.
Speaker 4: I appreciate that question. I mean, you know, the hardest
Speaker 4: thing is asking for help for me, Like that's like
Speaker 4: that's that's the biggest thing. And there's nothing more heartbreaking
Speaker 4: than like when we get a call and we go
Speaker 4: in and we start to consult with the family and
Speaker 4: you know, we're going to plan this family meeting where
Speaker 4: we're gonna i mean, I hate the word intervention, but
Speaker 4: essentially intervene, you know, and seeing that person on day zero,
Speaker 4: you know, and the family being a mess and all
Speaker 4: that stuff, you know, and still having that person like
Speaker 4: the identified patient, if you will say no is heartbreaking
Speaker 4: it but it's what keeps me coming back because I've
Speaker 4: seen that person, like I've been to that guy's wedding,
Speaker 4: you know, and that's like, that's the true gift in
Speaker 4: all this, right, and it takes time and patience because
Speaker 4: recovery is not an overnight matter. But yeah, asking for help,
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, here at Release Recovery, like we've
Speaker 4: built we've built a family in a community that's just
Speaker 4: the doors are always open and the phone is always opened.
Speaker 4: So certainly, you know, Release Recovery dot com. You can
Speaker 4: check us out if you call our main line, like
Speaker 4: we're gonna get you pointed in the right direction. Absolutely.
Speaker 4: We started a non for profit early last year and
Speaker 4: Release Recovery Foundation, where we're scholarshiping people who can't afford
Speaker 4: it to to go get some help. I've you know,
Speaker 4: for many years, worked in this world where it's a
Speaker 4: lot of private pay people who can quite frankly afford
Speaker 4: our services, and I just we just saw huge need
Speaker 4: in the market to help those that couldn't afford it.
Speaker 4: So I got my shirt on. Today we're going to
Speaker 4: be launching our twenty twenty one fundraiser, and all the
Speaker 4: proceeds from this guy is going to go towards women
Speaker 4: and people of color getting getting treatment because those are
Speaker 4: two communities that are really underserved in our world and
Speaker 4: borderline disrespected, you know. Like I was in treatment with
Speaker 4: a bunch of white males and the team that treated
Speaker 4: me was all, you know, white, you know, or whatever
Speaker 4: it was. And so we're passionate about about the work.
Speaker 4: And then and then obviously, like you know, there's Google it.
Speaker 4: You know, there's plenty of phone numbers out there to call,
Speaker 4: and there's twelve step communities and smart recovery and refuge
Speaker 4: recovery and a lot of things that you can do
Speaker 4: that are that are free. So asking for help, once
Speaker 4: you do that sky's the limit.
Speaker 3: So is release recovery? Is it impatient or outpatient? Are both?
Speaker 4: I think the best way to We're a full service
Speaker 4: recovery companies. We have a seventeen bed program for men
Speaker 4: north of New York City before five minutes in Westchester County,
Speaker 4: and then we have two programs in the city, one
Speaker 4: for men and one for women, so forty beds and
Speaker 4: that's uh. It's all transitional living. So people that are
Speaker 4: coming out of treatment okay and struggling with drug addiction
Speaker 4: or some mental illness stuff, we help get them back
Speaker 4: up on their feet. They stay with us about three
Speaker 4: six months and then you know some of the other
Speaker 4: work we do with case management and some of the
Speaker 4: intervention consultation stuff I was talking about. So we do
Speaker 4: a lot. We've seen it all sinarly going on, you know.
Speaker 3: And you did you went to impatient rehab.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I did four and a half months at a
Speaker 4: place out in Pennsylvania, Okay.
Speaker 3: You know, I've It's always been a topic for me
Speaker 3: that I'm always interested in because I commend and respect
Speaker 3: guys that have gotten sober without doing impatient treatment. I
Speaker 3: just know for me personally, I never would have been
Speaker 3: able to if it didn't spend the sixty days I
Speaker 3: did impatient. But you know, is that something for you?
Speaker 3: I mean not to say you doubt people that don't
Speaker 3: do so something like that, but is it something where
Speaker 3: you're just like if you're talking to somebody off the
Speaker 3: street and you're like, hey, you got to get into something.
Speaker 3: It's not just going to meetings. It's not just doing that.
Speaker 3: There's God, you have to kick for me again, I
Speaker 3: have to kick start that. You got to find out
Speaker 3: where all this comes from. In my personal opinion, but
Speaker 3: I just want to know your take on it.
Speaker 4: Being in the business, yeah, I mean, I'm a product
Speaker 4: of treatment right like that. I'm never going to tell
Speaker 4: any like, if you can go to treatment, go you know,
Speaker 4: who doesn't want to take a month, two months, three
Speaker 4: months to really work on themselves? And I went twice.
Speaker 4: The first time I went for a month, I was
Speaker 4: married at the time. And the best thing to come
Speaker 4: out of that was my wife learned what a boundary was,
Speaker 4: and the next time I got high, she kicked my
Speaker 4: ass out, you know. And for the next eight months
Speaker 4: I was ripping and running and whatever happened happened. And
Speaker 4: then I you know, I ended up backing treatment for
Speaker 4: four and a half months, and that was what I
Speaker 4: needed to do, and I'm very grateful for that experience.
Speaker 4: So if you can do to treatment and do.
Speaker 2: Treatment, I gotta well, first of all, I mean, I
Speaker 2: love everything this conversation. I was just thinking when you
Speaker 2: said your ex wife, because I'm one of the reasons
Speaker 2: why I didn't leave Mike was I was like, I
Speaker 2: don't want someone else to get the version that like
Speaker 2: I deserve, that I worked for that I have, Like
Speaker 2: that I thought I was going to get like I'm
Speaker 2: not going to get duped, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like I'm not going to go through this pain and
Speaker 2: then have somebody else get you like nuhuh, like and
Speaker 2: you haven't made it easy the last five years, you no,
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, so it's like I can only imagine,
Speaker 2: you know. I'm sure she's so happy for you, you know,
Speaker 2: But as as the other side, I'd have been like,
Speaker 2: damn it, like now you're amazing, so happy and you.
Speaker 4: Know, she's cool. She saved my life. I hope she
Speaker 4: knows that, you know. And like I always say, like, Mike,
Speaker 4: nice job. But the true heroes and all this are
Speaker 4: the family members, like the people that stand by us, because.
Speaker 3: Like there's no question you can.
Speaker 4: Talk, we can talk offline, but it's you know, we
Speaker 4: it's yeah, you guys are the heroes and and that's
Speaker 4: you know, I was saying yesterday, I was talking to
Speaker 4: a friend and like we get to go away. Mike
Speaker 4: was just saying, like treatment, like and the focus for
Speaker 4: us for however long we're there is just on us.
Speaker 4: And you guys are still out in the real world
Speaker 4: with kids and know other family members, jobs, and you
Speaker 4: don't have in terms of education and resources and tools.
Speaker 4: So we're the lucky ones.
Speaker 2: Yeah, dang, I agree with that. That's sweet, Like I
Speaker 2: really needed that validation after all those years you're doing
Speaker 2: a good Pittsburgh PAM, which you got, Zach.
Speaker 1: Do you think that, like, you know, because of your
Speaker 1: recovery that it really kind of prepared you almost like
Speaker 1: for the show because I noticed that you were just
Speaker 1: always so like chill with the process and it didn't
Speaker 1: seem to be like any of it affected you. When
Speaker 1: I there's a lot of guys that come in and
Speaker 1: just too much stuff gets in their head and then
Speaker 1: they end up like sabotaging themselves. And their whole experience.
Speaker 1: But I just like did not notice any of that
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 4: No. I mean I think my life prepared me for
Speaker 4: that moment honestly, and not just the recovery piece. But
Speaker 4: I come from a really good family. And you know,
Speaker 4: I was joking because it's like, you know, rehab right
Speaker 4: like this season and I don't know anything about the
Speaker 4: bat Like this whole thing was all new to me.
Speaker 4: But apparently there's a lot of travel and other stuff
Speaker 4: in other seasons, but we were in this bubble, which
Speaker 4: for me was like treatment again. Kick your phone. I'm like, sweet,
Speaker 4: I'm back in rehab, like failure, cute girl, and talk
Speaker 4: about your feelings in this camera like I can do that.
Speaker 1: You were made for it. I know that. Like gratitude
Speaker 1: and like Tasha has talked about you, just being such
Speaker 1: like a thankful man has been like really important and
Speaker 1: you know one of the reasons that like she fell
Speaker 1: in love with you. Do you do any like specific
Speaker 1: type of like gratitude practices or is it just something
Speaker 1: that you just like you know, exude from your body
Speaker 1: like on a daily basis or is it more of
Speaker 1: like a ritual of something that you do?
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, I appreciate. I mean, look, I try to
Speaker 4: live in gratitude obviously, that's that's like one of the
Speaker 4: my core beliefs. We have to be grateful. And I
Speaker 4: just I mean, I have my daily routine that on
Speaker 4: my good days, like I'm up early in the morning,
Speaker 4: I'm meditating, I'm getting centered, I'm doing the things that
Speaker 4: I need to do in order to you know, walk
Speaker 4: out into the world and be a be a human.
Speaker 4: And for me, like you know, whether you're believing like God,
Speaker 4: for me is like an actors a verb. It's an
Speaker 4: auction word, you know, like you I'm able to show
Speaker 4: that in my daily life. And certainly I've done gratitude list,
Speaker 4: and I believe in the power of like pen to
Speaker 4: paper and writing and that kind of thing. So yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't know, that's all I got there.
Speaker 2: I have a question about because I know, like living
Speaker 2: with an addict in Mike always says he's like, I
Speaker 2: can't I can't say I'll never do this again. And
Speaker 2: he's like, that's right, is that's kind of like you
Speaker 2: said like in program, like you can't say you'll like
Speaker 2: you're gonna live like you'll never do to like you
Speaker 2: want you how do you say it?
Speaker 3: So I don't know, it's there's just no Unfortunately, being
Speaker 3: an addict, you lose the privilege of using the word
Speaker 3: never or claiming that you'll never do something again.
Speaker 2: So because of that, you know, sometimes I have that
Speaker 2: fear because there have been a few relapses and you know,
Speaker 2: and he kind of knows like where I'm at, Like
Speaker 2: there's only so much personally that I think the other person, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's gone through, it can go through where it's just
Speaker 2: like I got I have nothing left right Like there's
Speaker 2: so I'm curious, like have you had those conversations with
Speaker 2: Taysha about you know, like is she fearful of a relapse?
Speaker 2: Because that's that's my biggest fear is like, Okay, we've
Speaker 2: putting all this work and I'm like I'm fearful for
Speaker 2: them if there's a next one because I can't. I
Speaker 2: can't do it anymore. I can't handle it anymore. So
Speaker 2: it's like I have everything out there, our life, our work,
Speaker 2: everything we do together, and it's like and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: I pray to he shows up, but it's it's hard.
Speaker 2: So it's like I don't has that been something that
Speaker 2: you know, y'all have talked about with the fears that
Speaker 2: potentially come up around that, or you just I mean
Speaker 2: because you are ten, you know, ten years strong in it,
Speaker 2: that you don't have really that fear or she doesn't, No, I.
Speaker 4: Mean that's it's a real thing. I mean, I've heard
Speaker 4: about guys with twenty five years going back out right
Speaker 4: like and for whatever reason, and life comes at you
Speaker 4: fast like I don't. That's part of I think having
Speaker 4: a partner in life, you're going to go through trials
Speaker 4: and tribulations together. I mean I have explained to her,
Speaker 4: and no offense to her or to you or anyone
Speaker 4: else who dates someone like myself, like is that our
Speaker 4: RecA Like for me, I'll speak to myself like, my
Speaker 4: recovery must come first, right and it has to no
Speaker 4: matter what, and everything else kind of stems off of that.
Speaker 4: And when I'm living that way, I got a pretty
Speaker 4: good shot to stay in this thing. But we've had
Speaker 4: conversations about that and what that looks like, and you know,
Speaker 4: I think she understands that if something was to happen
Speaker 4: down the line, like we would have to really have
Speaker 4: a conversation and see what that looks like and there's
Speaker 4: different degrees to a relapse, like did I go out
Speaker 4: on a tough day and get hammered because I was
Speaker 4: feeling sorry for myself or that I you know, end
Speaker 4: up you know with a needle in my own you know,
Speaker 4: like and everything in between.
Speaker 2: So setting that's yeah, that's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 2: we have certain the boundaries in the circles and circle
Speaker 2: of recovery.
Speaker 3: But yeah, and what I've told Jane, I was like,
Speaker 3: at least for me, you'll see the writing on the
Speaker 3: wall before it gets to that point, before it gets
Speaker 3: to that, you know, blow up inner circle, step outside
Speaker 3: the marriage again, Like there's it's going to be a
Speaker 3: transitional thing for me. It's not yet, no, you hope not.
Speaker 3: But just the way I am with my emotions now
Speaker 3: and you being able to read me like a book
Speaker 3: and asking me what's wrong or are you okay? Before
Speaker 3: I even have of the intelligence to express it, like
Speaker 3: you read me like a book. There's one question. I
Speaker 3: remember the question I was gonna ask earlier, Zach before
Speaker 3: we let you go, And it was about family and
Speaker 3: you're talking about you know, you have a great family
Speaker 3: and all that stuff, and you're commending that it is
Speaker 3: the your significant others. It is the people around you.
Speaker 3: Those are the real heroes. And you know, guys like
Speaker 3: our people like us in our lives that have been
Speaker 3: able to find recovery. I know that my parents went
Speaker 3: through and maybe you still at times go through periods
Speaker 3: of guilt and shame where they they almost want to
Speaker 3: blame themselves. And I've said this numerous times on this
Speaker 3: show and in other interviews, where I'm like, what I
Speaker 3: explained to my parents is like you could take sales
Speaker 3: a twin and we had the same life experience, It
Speaker 3: went through the same things, the same memories or whatever.
Speaker 3: He or she could turn out completely different than I did.
Speaker 3: He or she could have when in a different direction,
Speaker 3: could have handled feelings a different way, regardless of you know,
Speaker 3: us being raised the exact same way. So have your
Speaker 3: parents Did your parents ever express that to you, like,
Speaker 3: did they feel responsible in a way and how did
Speaker 3: you kind of you know, mend that.
Speaker 4: There's a couple of things. Through my work, I've I've
Speaker 4: really become grateful for my family because I think in
Speaker 4: the grand scheme of things and looking at all the
Speaker 4: families I've worked with, my family's actually pretty healthy. You know,
Speaker 4: and like, there's a lot of families out there that
Speaker 4: that struggle. And one of the things I try to
Speaker 4: tell not just my family, but the families that we
Speaker 4: work with, is this whole it sucks, Like this whole
Speaker 4: recovery thing sucks and treatment things sucks because there's just
Speaker 4: no playbook. Like you got someone with cancer, you got
Speaker 4: someone with diabetes, you got someone like here you go,
Speaker 4: this is what you got to do. And you do
Speaker 4: these things and you support them and you love them
Speaker 4: and you bake them cakes and hopefully they you know,
Speaker 4: get well. But with this thing, it's like, you know,
Speaker 4: parents can can do everything right and still you know,
Speaker 4: being going to their kids funeral, and that's just the
Speaker 4: reality of of this world we live in. So for me,
Speaker 4: it's just important to let my parents know that I
Speaker 4: love them and that I'm grateful for them. One of
Speaker 4: my favorite parts of the entire season, if you will,
Speaker 4: which I don't even like to think of it like
Speaker 4: that because it was real life for me, was the
Speaker 4: opportunity to sit there and just tell my mother, you know,
Speaker 4: like what she has meant to me because she will
Speaker 4: be there when when she is going wrong, but she'll
Speaker 4: never take credit when things are going right, you know,
Speaker 4: and like so trying to let her know how much
Speaker 4: she's meant to me in my journey. But yeah, parents
Speaker 4: always feel guilty and it's it's one of the hardest
Speaker 4: things to live through because at the end of the day, Mike, like,
Speaker 4: I know you're not a bad guy. I know I'm
Speaker 4: not a bad guy, but like, we do things that
Speaker 4: make us look like bad people.
Speaker 3: So oh yeah, anything else.
Speaker 2: You're just such a good dude. Thank you for sharing
Speaker 2: your story and your journey, and I just, yeah, I
Speaker 2: appreciate you. And you know, I look at you and
Speaker 2: Mike and I think you guys are you guys are
Speaker 2: so incredibly strong and brave to be sharing your story
Speaker 2: and putting it out there and just know how many
Speaker 2: people you're helping.
Speaker 4: So you guys, at we live in Nashville.
Speaker 2: Where do you live?
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm in New York in the city. But the
Speaker 4: things open up, I hope to cross paths, you know, will.
Speaker 2: That would be awesome, Yeah, that would be great. Where
Speaker 2: can our listeners find you, Zach?
Speaker 4: I think my Instagram handle is z A C. W. Clark. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and uh, release recoveries, release like let go release recovery
Speaker 4: dot com and then our nonprofits Release Recovery Foundation dot
Speaker 4: org call the mainline, hit us up. My email is
Speaker 4: Zach at Release Recovery dot com. I respond to emails
Speaker 4: like if it's an email purpose not if you're just
Speaker 4: saying hi and you saw me on the show.
Speaker 2: Do you know how many emails you're going to get? Now?
Speaker 4: All right, it's all good, it's all good. We're handling them.
Speaker 4: Your Instagram is z W Clark. Oh, there you go,
Speaker 4: maybe my maybe my Twitter.
Speaker 3: You are so funny, and that's how I know you're
Speaker 3: my kind of guy right there, because.
Speaker 2: Mike doesn't have social media, so I only make him
Speaker 2: do social media once a week on mine, Mike mondays
Speaker 2: and then I'm like, give me a day off. So yeah,
Speaker 2: but thank you so much, z. I appreciate it and
Speaker 2: hope to see you in either New York or Nashville.
Speaker 2: Al Right, guys, Oh he was so sweet, gosh, like
Speaker 2: just I mean, I knew he was going to be
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: You know, he's just like to say that. That's how
Speaker 1: you know somebody is so cool is when they're like
Speaker 1: the same person no matter what, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he's just like who he He's so confident, Yes.
Speaker 3: Very confident, very comfortable and you and it just naturally
Speaker 3: uses out of him. You just you can experience it
Speaker 3: even through a computer screen.
Speaker 2: I feel like you guys would be really good friends.
Speaker 2: We'd be bro my.
Speaker 1: God and unentation would totally.
Speaker 2: Oh love each other. And then like, because you know
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh Cam, you know, like you can come over to
Speaker 2: so much fun. Let's take a break and then let's
Speaker 2: go to some emails, Mark, what do you got for us?
Speaker 3: Okay, this is.
Speaker 5: A heavy one. This is from anonymous. I emailed a
Speaker 5: couple of years ago and told you about discovering my
Speaker 5: husband's sex addiction. Ever since then, we went to counseling
Speaker 5: and he even connected with Mike. At the beginning, things
Speaker 5: had been better. But about a year ago he stopped
Speaker 5: counseling and we've had some rocky times, but it seemed
Speaker 5: to still be on the path to trust being regained.
Speaker 5: Fast forward to recently. We bought our first home. Now
Speaker 5: we have a two and a half year old and
Speaker 5: I'm eight months pregnant. Two days ago, I received the
Speaker 5: message I had been hoping to never see. He was
Speaker 5: a woman telling me with proof of screenshots that she's
Speaker 5: been seeing my husband for a few months and apologizing
Speaker 5: for not knowing he was married. I'm at a complete loss.
Speaker 5: You're with our second child in three weeks. I don't
Speaker 5: have a beautiful home that I don't know how to
Speaker 5: care for or live in on my own. What the
Speaker 5: hell do I do? I stopped setting expectations long ago
Speaker 5: and knew this was a possibility, but I am still
Speaker 5: in shock. I know it wasn't done to intentionally hurt me,
Speaker 5: but obviously I'm heartbroken. Looking for any advice you have
Speaker 5: to offer. I'm pretty certain I can't stay in this
Speaker 5: marriage as he didn't follow through with the things.
Speaker 4: I had asked.
Speaker 2: My heart breaks for you because it is the worst
Speaker 2: when you feel betrayed again and to see that come
Speaker 2: up and I can't even imagine being pregnant almost do
Speaker 2: like I like that just broke my heart. Do you
Speaker 2: remember talking to him, and I know you've talked to
Speaker 2: a few dudes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would have to look back.
Speaker 2: I mean it sounds like he maybe didn't do the
Speaker 2: like kind of like what you and Zach talked about,
Speaker 2: like he made he didn't do the treatment, you know,
Speaker 2: because like you kind of said, counseling. Sometimes you need
Speaker 2: the bigger, the bigger push to.
Speaker 3: To you got to it's like you have to get
Speaker 3: out of reality to start experiencing reality, almost like you
Speaker 3: have to you have to get out of the world
Speaker 3: and just going to this place of just constant spiritual
Speaker 3: and introspection to figure out this stuff.
Speaker 2: Can I play Devil's Advocate though, just for a second, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because if I was her, I would say, well, I mean,
Speaker 2: you went to treatment. You almost had someone show up
Speaker 2: at the hotel room a year almost a year and
Speaker 2: a half, two years later, so then clearly treatment didn't work.
Speaker 2: Well that does that make you sue I'm trying to like,
Speaker 2: so it's.
Speaker 3: Like, what, yeah, well, you're making it black and white,
Speaker 3: which I understand, but it unfortunately it's not. It's not.
Speaker 3: There's not you know, just like Zach was saying on
Speaker 3: the thing, it's like, there's not a playbook for this.
Speaker 3: Like it's not like, all right, if you go to
Speaker 3: impatient treatment, then you're good, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: It's it's something you live with for the rest of
Speaker 3: your life. It's a disease you live with for the
Speaker 3: rest of your life. So you know, but that's part
Speaker 3: of the thing too. That was my biggest knock on
Speaker 3: the treatment I went to was they don't. All you
Speaker 3: do is talk about yourself and figure out your own
Speaker 3: and then you step out into the world and you
Speaker 3: get and you get your teeth kicked in by reality.
Speaker 2: Wait, can we just talk about that for just one
Speaker 2: second before we get back to this email, because I'll
Speaker 2: never forget the phone call that you made to me
Speaker 2: when you got out of rehab and I quote, Hey,
Speaker 2: where are you at? I need my computer? And I
Speaker 2: was like what, I'm sorry, excuse me, and you go,
Speaker 2: I need my computer. It's mine, Jane. I have a
Speaker 2: right to have my stuff. And I'm like, well, not
Speaker 2: the pretty much, and you you're like no, and you go.
Speaker 2: I was like, well, we need to download things, and
Speaker 2: you're like, I have, And then you started to go
Speaker 2: like I have my rights I have.
Speaker 4: I'm like, you.
Speaker 2: Don't know, because I'm like, I'm like broken over here.
Speaker 3: Because they teach you about boundaries, but again they don't.
Speaker 3: They only talk about they talk about your own self
Speaker 3: care and not the people that you've destroyed. And so
Speaker 3: I come out like, listen here, lady, I got boundaries.
Speaker 2: I've got boundaries, and Jane's like, go your boundaries. It's
Speaker 2: like no, no, no, no, I get a few em.
Speaker 3: So those, yeah, there's that, there's that learning curve to
Speaker 3: to come back into reality after you're in the safety
Speaker 3: pink cloud bubble of you know, impatient rehab.
Speaker 2: But okay, but back to this girl though, right, I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously she wanted to work on the Obviously she was
Speaker 2: willing to stay in the beginning. And I totally understand
Speaker 2: when you said, I don't know if I could stay
Speaker 2: in this marriage now. And that's the same thing that
Speaker 2: I kind of felt when you know, when we you know,
Speaker 2: when that relapse happened and I found out I was
Speaker 2: pregnant with Jace. Like, I totally get that feeling. Having
Speaker 2: said that, if you're not out now, I don't feel
Speaker 2: like you're gonna get out because you still are holding
Speaker 2: hope that maybe he can change, which is why I
Speaker 2: kind of always stayed too, because you're like holding hope.
Speaker 2: But you have to You're gonna need to if you
Speaker 2: want to stay, because you love him. Obviously you have
Speaker 2: another baby on the way with him, You're gonna have
Speaker 2: to set real clear boundaries. If you haven't already. Does
Speaker 2: that make sense? Like she's gonna have to be like, look,
Speaker 2: you you go to treatment. Kind of like what I
Speaker 2: said to you, I was like, go figure your stuff out,
Speaker 2: and you need to go check into treatment. Which is
Speaker 2: so hard for a mom that's about to have a
Speaker 2: baby and already toddler at home. But I mean maybe
Speaker 2: that's that's their last ditch hope to maybe save their marriage.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Pam, what do you think?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I mean I've you know, dealt with
Speaker 1: this as a child, and you know you're my mom
Speaker 1: treated no just you know, like the whole boundaries and
Speaker 1: like addiction and things and so yeah, like my mom
Speaker 1: finally after so many times was like you know, she
Speaker 1: she had two little kids, you know, the same thing,
Speaker 1: like what it had no you know house, and but
Speaker 1: she she there was too many boundaries broken constantly, and
Speaker 1: she did leave.
Speaker 2: There's a there's a point when you're just like you know,
Speaker 2: you're done, you know, like you get simphere like I'm done.
Speaker 2: And my friends and always said like you'll just know
Speaker 2: it's and it'll be just be like you're done. Having
Speaker 2: said that, something has to happen here where she sees
Speaker 2: some kind of something that he's i think, willing to
Speaker 2: do to fight for the marriage because clearly he's an
Speaker 2: active addiction.
Speaker 3: And it's got to be significant. K.
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I mean, like treatment, And if.
Speaker 3: It's not because of the life situation they're in with
Speaker 3: a baby on the way and she doesn't want to
Speaker 3: add even more stress or pain. I mean, that's her
Speaker 3: decision to make up. But whatever boundary she puts in place,
Speaker 3: as long as it's not harmful or belittling or disrespectful
Speaker 3: to him like what like, yeah, like you can't do
Speaker 3: anything at all except for good to work and come
Speaker 3: like you know what I mean, Like you still have
Speaker 3: to have some understanding of whatever. But I'm not saying
Speaker 3: go out to the bars. I'm not saying do anything
Speaker 3: social like that. But if he wants to go and
Speaker 3: just have a beard a buddy's house or something and
Speaker 3: life through six, he needs to be on the phone,
Speaker 3: COVID and ie.
Speaker 2: No more social media.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no social media. Wipe out anything that can be
Speaker 3: an outlet for that. So he is he is put
Speaker 3: in this lane and it as a guy, especially who's
Speaker 3: someone in active addiction and doing stuff, he's going to
Speaker 3: be defiant towards it. Probably he's gonna have issues. He's
Speaker 3: gonna feel like I feel like a child. Well, you're
Speaker 3: acting like a child, you know what I mean. That's
Speaker 3: that I had to deal with and overcome for a
Speaker 3: long time.
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry, Beb. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: I yeah, We're just it sucks. And so it's your
Speaker 3: call to your decision on what you want, and we
Speaker 3: know it's not easy, and so we're just kind of
Speaker 3: talking through options that you have. And what you know,
Speaker 3: what Jana's therapists told her is like, was it no
Speaker 3: major life decisions in the first six to twelve months,
Speaker 3: No major life decisions. So she that's the thing I
Speaker 3: think she needs to realize, let the storm settle. She
Speaker 3: doesn't have to make the decision right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good advice.
Speaker 3: Nothing's going to change if you make the decision right now.
Speaker 2: Just but yeah, but if you are going to considering,
Speaker 2: just like he has to go buy those boundaries of
Speaker 2: getting off social media life three sixty on the phones
Speaker 2: coven and I is on the computers. And that's not
Speaker 2: to baby them or be their parent. That's just protection
Speaker 2: and for safety for both of you. But we'll be
Speaker 2: thinking of you, and please email us and let us
Speaker 2: know how we can help you more.
Speaker 3: And if you like me to talk to him again.
Speaker 2: Then have him reach out again.
Speaker 3: Have him reach out or email or what's her iHeart email.
Speaker 4: Wind down at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, if your husband wants to email us there,
Speaker 3: iHeart team will get that to me and we'll go
Speaker 3: from there.
Speaker 2: Do we have any other ones?
Speaker 3: Mark we do?
Speaker 4: Melissa?
Speaker 2: Is it a total downer?
Speaker 5: The bottom line is she has a nineteen month old
Speaker 5: son with her husband. She wants baby number two, but
Speaker 5: husband is dead set on not having another. She says
Speaker 5: they can't imagine my son being only child and being
Speaker 5: alone in holiday events and it's daycare or played it
Speaker 5: for socialisation. I bring it up every few months, but
Speaker 5: it always ends up with me sobbing and him telling
Speaker 5: me no, he's embarrassed by the person he was when
Speaker 5: my son was a newborn and our marriage almost didn't survive.
Speaker 5: He's afraid he will become that awful person again and
Speaker 5: our marriage won't survive the second time. I can't accept
Speaker 5: that he's accepting the behavior and not willing to work
Speaker 5: on it and try for the sake of my needs
Speaker 5: of being a mother?
Speaker 4: How do I navigate this.
Speaker 3: Rough week?
Speaker 4: In the emails?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a little bit more to this one.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's saying he wasn't a good person when
Speaker 1: they had the newborn and he doesn't want to be
Speaker 1: that person again. But to me, that's kind of like
Speaker 1: a you know, an excuse to something else. I think
Speaker 1: there's a little bit more deeper than that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one hundred percent work he needs to do,
Speaker 3: he needs the man, but.
Speaker 2: But you know, if it's not something he wants though,
Speaker 2: I mean I think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's different, But that's different than saying he doesn't
Speaker 3: want to be the person he was when their first
Speaker 3: song was a newborn.
Speaker 2: Sure, then work on yourself.
Speaker 1: Saying he doesn't want another kid, he's like turning it
Speaker 1: now into all about him.
Speaker 3: Right, which is not fair, and saying that this newborn
Speaker 3: had that much effect on him negatively, which sucks to hear. Gosh, Yeah,
Speaker 3: like that's not encouraging. So how do you navigate it?
Speaker 2: If you're under thirty two? Divorce him? You still got
Speaker 2: time to find someone enough.
Speaker 1: You're over, you got you got therapy, Yeah, do some
Speaker 1: therapy and then therapy there just hold him a.
Speaker 2: Little tighter when you guys have sex. Bridgerton is asked, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I would.
Speaker 3: I would try to get a third party involved here,
Speaker 3: because nothing you say, Melissa will be able to will
Speaker 3: enlighten him. Unfortunately, from the sounds of it, he's stuck
Speaker 3: in his around this, so he needs a third party
Speaker 3: to talk this out.
Speaker 2: We agree, and we also are going to choose the
Speaker 2: Bridgerton Act.
Speaker 3: Bridgerton Act.
Speaker 2: Great show, guys, Pittsburgh, Pam, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1: Always happy to be with you.
Speaker 2: All right, guys, see you next week.