WEBVTT - Rojava Solidarity with the Emergency Committee for Rojava 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:10.559 All Ze Media. Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:16.720 a podcast about it happening here. And you know, when 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.400 we talk about like collapse, things falling apart, there's very 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.400 few case studies that are more important for folks to 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.880 be aware of than what has happened and is continuing 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:29.200 to happen in Northeast Syria, in a region of the 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:35.640 world known as Rojava or the Autonomous Regions of Northeast Syria. 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:39.400 And I'm here with James Stout. He and I have 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:42.919 both reported from the ro Javon project, and we are 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:47.400 talking again with Arthur and Debbie Bookchin about what's going 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:53.680 on there now, kind of as the struggle continues, so 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:54.200 to speak. 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.720 That's right, and thank you very much for joining us. Arthurine, Debbie, 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.160 and you're both here in your capacity as representatives of 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:03.680 the Emergency Committee for Rajava. 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:07.160 Right, that's right, and thanks for having us. 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:08.759 Yeah, thanks for coming back. 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.920 So I think perhaps we should begin by explaining what 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:14.680 ECI is and does. I've been very fortunate to be 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.760 asked to speak at one of your meetings, so I'm familiar, 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:19.800 but I think maybe some of our listeners wouldn't be. 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.520 So could you begin with explaining what it is what 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:22.960 it does. 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:29.000 Yeah, absolutely, so, the Emergency Committee for Rojeva is it's 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:34.200 kind of the only standing US based organization focused on 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:38.640 solidarity with the Rojeva Revolution. And what we do is 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.039 we try to build a grassroots solidarity movement with the 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:45.679 revolution in North East Syria, with the Curtis Freedom movement 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.000 more broadly, and we do that in a few different ways. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.440 One is like just trying to inform the public right 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.680 so kind of public education. Another is advocacy trying to 0:01:55.760 --> 0:02:00.440 sort of put pressure on the United States government to 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.480 stop arming people who are trying to kill everybody in 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.920 Rogevo and to support the people instead. But another thing 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.280 that we do is try to build kind of movement 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.320 to movement relationships. None like finding social movements in the 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.160 United States that we think share a lot of affinity 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:20.440 with movement over there, try to put them in touch 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:23.280 and try to kind of facilitate dialogue. 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:24.160 Yeah. 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:26.480 No, I mean I think it's important to kind of start, 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.080 as we often do, with the attempt to get the 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.560 US government to stop arming folks killing the people there, 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:37.079 which in this case refers specifically to the Turkish military. 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.280 I mean, we're all kind of dealing with in a 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.400 separate part of the world, how difficult it is to 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.760 stop the United States government from arming people. 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:50.840 Do that, right, Yeah, it's a great point, Robert. You know, 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.840 I think sometimes it's hard for people to even comprehend 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:59.320 just the massive flow of weapons from the United States 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:03.079 to Turkey. I mean, over the years it's been it's 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.560 just I think in the last fifteen years alone, the 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:10.600 US has sold Turkey something like four billion dollars worth 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.920 of Patriot missiles alone, you know, and then billions or 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:21.240 at least millions, and you know, helicopters, the Cobra attack helicopters. 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.639 There is just a huge. 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.320 Flow of arms from the United States to Turkey. And 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.560 as Arthur said, you know, one of the things that 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:33.960 we really do try and do at ECR is to 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:38.040 get people not only aware but also into doing some 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:42.000 advocacy on that. And one of the things that we're 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.920 also trying to prevent right now is the sale of 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:49.760 any more F sixteen's to Turkey, which, as I'm sure 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:54.240 your listeners know, are used in the bombing of people 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.880 in Rojeva and also in Turkey and in northern Iraq. 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.640 So that's a very critical issue in. 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.160 Fact, yeah, yeah, and it's a critical issue in part 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.320 because like what we're seeing is a I would describe 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.080 it as a pretty concentrated attempt to destroy civil society 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.640 in Rojeva, right, Like, you're absolutely not just through the 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.599 use of air strikes, through things like blocking off access 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.920 to water, but the f sixteens that Turkey purchases from 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.440 the United States and the continuing armaments to keep those 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.720 things flying and firing missiles are a huge part of 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.480 how they're able to continue degrading the capacity of the 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:38.520 self administration to maintain civil society exactly. 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:43.080 I mean, there is really an aim there, aim to 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:48.560 completely destabilize the society, to shake confidence and the autonomous administration, 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:54.440 to break morale, to engage in psychological terror, and frankly, 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.679 you know, also to do physical harm. As I'm sure 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:02.080 you know and your listeners know. They Turkey very effectively 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:07.320 uses drones and other methods to take out leadership, particularly 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:12.440 female leadership, women who are leaders of the movement. And 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.680 you know, there's not a day that goes by really 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.920 that doesn't include strikes from Turkey into Rojeva. I mean, 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:26.599 I'm just thinking, you know, the Membij military Council just 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.360 has reported in the last couple of days that the 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:35.080 State of Turkey has shelled various villages and membies. You 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:42.719 know that Kurdish neighborhoods in Aleppo are really subjected to 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:48.200 continuous embargoes by the Damascus government, but also you know, 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:53.719 Turkey intercedes to prevent supplies from getting to these places. 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.400 So it's really I think there's something like more than 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:02.159 two hundred bombings by Turkey Racky Kurdistan even since just 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:06.920 the beginning of the year, So it's really ongoing assault. 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.680 No, absolutely, I think you know, for people who are 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.640 less familiar with it, it's easy to kind of get 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.560 bogged down in the weeds because all the details they 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.719 change every day. But I think the broadze strokes are pretty. 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.000 Clear and they haven't changed for a long time. I mean, 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:24.960 Turkey sees. 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:29.200 This revolution rightly so as a threat to its own power, 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.880 to its own ideology. You know, the idea that local 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:38.040 communities would govern themselves pluralistically through autonomy is a direct 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:39.960 threat to the idea of the Turkish state, which is 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.000 basically a fascist nation state. And they kind of have 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:46.120 a twofold strategy. I think you could see it this way, right. So, 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.240 like for those who don't know, Turkey has already invade 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.560 in Northeastiria multiple times. It's invaded Euphrine in twenty eighteen, 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:56.920 set Kanye te Labiat in twenty nineteen, and it occupies 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:01.120 that territory still to this day. But when it's been 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.360 unable to seize more territory directly, it kind of has 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.800 this twofold strategy where the other side of the coin 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.560 is to just do everything possible to make life unlivable, right, 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:13.760 So that's where the assassinations come in. 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:15.200 That's where the sort. 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:20.240 Of information warfare, blocking of water, sort of economic embargo. 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:24.280 The basic idea is just to spread fear, to spread 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.760 uncertainty into every sphere of life, and like you said, Robert, 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.240 to basically attack civil society itself. 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.840 Yeah, I wonder if you could explain. I think our 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:38.000 listeners are maybe familiar with the campaign against civil society 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:42.840 and civilian targets that we saw in October November of 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.160 last year, that I saw some of while I was there. 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:51.200 But Turkey's recently launched like a spring offensive, right, which 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:57.760 doesn't isn't exclusively unlimited to bombing, but also it contains 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:03.560 like I guess combined ons infantry bombing. Can you explain 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:07.080 what's happening there and what the sort of I think 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.200 the plan you've sort of very well summed up already, right, 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.720 which is to make life unlivable for the Kurdish freedom movement. 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.480 But can you explain what's been happening in the last 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.160 few weeks for people who haven't caught up. 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.560 So for one, for people to understand the connection in 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.320 the first place, right, it's important to understand that really, 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.360 while there are distinct organizations which are autonomous and are 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.480 place based within the Kurdish movement, right there's they have 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.719 their own parties and self defense forces in Syria and 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:35.520 in Iraq and other parts of Kurdistan. 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:37.600 It's important to see it also. 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.160 As kind of one big Kurtish freedom movement in another 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.880 sense and an important sense, because Turkey sees it in 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.800 that light. So for the same reasons the Turkey wants 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.640 to crush the revolution in northeast Syria, the Turkey wants 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.599 to crush the PKK, the Kurdistan Workers Party, right, and 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.040 the gorillas of the PKK are based in northern Iraq, 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.439 and time and time again they've tried to sort of 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.760 dislodge the gorilla forces from the mountains. 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:05.120 But it's pretty hard to do. 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.840 You know, this is NATO's second largest military and they 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.599 still after decades, have not been able to crush this 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.839 like insurgency, and so what we're seeing. 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.160 In recent weeks is not necessarily so novel. 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:19.599 I mean, you can, again, you can get into the 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.800 weeds about the region of Metina and a particular road 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.760 that they're trying to seize for logistics on their way 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:31.040 to the mountain of Ghara. But the truth is they're 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.800 trying to crush the movement where it is and they're 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.360 seizing an opportunity. There's often like a weather window for 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.880 the fighting in the mountains as well, and so when 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.240 the snow starts to melt in the spring, you start 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.040 to see an escalation of the fighting in the mountains, 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.800 which often winds down in the fall. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:49.640 Again, but it's yet to be seen how this is 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:50.079 going to go. 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:52.640 I mean, y'all have I don't have to tell you right, 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.760 like you've done some recent episodes on technological developments with 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.839 the movement, and Turkey's been having a really hard time 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:01.120 gains on the ground. 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.920 And also I mean, as I think as Megan Bodette 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:10.199 noted on this podcast recently, you know, the Turkish leader 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:14.640 Erdowan tends to take out any insults he feels he suffered, 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.800 and particularly elections setbacks has happened in the local elections 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.679 at the end of March on the Kurdish regions everywhere 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:29.960 in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and so we're seeing also crackdowns 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.520 has happened also for quite some time, but on journalists 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:42.400 again sort of cranking up again. It's funny that on 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:48.479 World Press Day, which was May third, Kurdish journalist was arrested, 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.319 you know, strip search, a woman thrown in jail, and 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:57.559 this is you know, another sort of wave of politicians 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:02.199 being arrested. Just again on Monday, I think thirteen politicians 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:07.280 were sentenced to six years plus in jail in prison. 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:13.640 So this sort of policy that seems to show itself 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:18.000 every time Airdawan feels a bit threatened is one that 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.079 we're seeing right now, in part I think as a 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:25.480 result of those election defeats that his party suffered. 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:26.240 Yeah. 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.679 Absolutely, and as sinister as it is, whenever they lose 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:34.480 in the mountains, they often hit harder in North Eastyria 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:38.560 and vice versa. So it's all just a big kind 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:40.240 of ugly game that they're playing. 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.000 Well, I want to get to some more here, but 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:46.040 first we've got to take a quick break. We're going 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.360 to throw to some ads and then we'll come back 0:11:48.480 --> 0:12:04.120 and continue this discussion. All right, we're back, and I'm 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.559 trying to get a sense of how the situation is 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.439 on the ground right now despite the or considering the 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.760 challenges of the attacks on infrastructure that have continued to 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.480 go on, Like, what are we looking at from a 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.199 daily life point of view in places like Camichelo. 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.240 Well, you know, one of the things that I think 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.760 is important to emphasize is just how strong a lot 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.400 of the civil structures really are even in the face 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.400 of these attacks by Turkey. And I'm sure Arthur will 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.120 have something to say about that, and also about maybe 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.520 some of the sort of the military side of this. 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:48.120 But you know, the extraordinary thing about Rojeva is just 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:53.120 how deeply engaged they are on the civil level. In 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.079 our group at the Emergency Committee for Rozeva, we're in 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.640 contact with a lot of people in civil society and 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.439 I'm always amazed at how many sort of requests we 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:10.360 get for you know, exchanges of information and scholars, and 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.440 they're building the university there to do more and more 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:20.040 technical things, you know, whether computers or agricultural sciences or 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.320 you know, just a vast variety of graduate program they 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.440 want to do right now in social ecology that I've 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:32.400 been working with them on. And so, even though there's 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.559 this effort by Turkey to kind of terrorize the civilian population, 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.959 and I'm sure you know, people can imagine what it 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.719 must feel like to have drones flying constantly overhead and 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.360 wondering if you get into a car whether it might 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.239 you might you know, be the subject of a drone attack. Nonetheless, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:56.240 there is still this extraordinary sort of hopefulness and also 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.400 energy towards building the society. And for example, but one 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.880 of the things that they recently did, and it took 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.800 a long time, but they rewrote their Social Contract, which 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.439 is what we would think of as a constitution, to 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:15.960 empower women even more, you know, to empower various ethnic 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:20.520 minorities more, and to make it a document that is 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.880 truly inclusive in terms of how it was written and 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.680 how it will be implemented, and so on the ground, 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.960 I think, even though they are suffering in a lot 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.000 of ways, and they are because you know, Rojeve is 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:39.880 also a region that is subject to terrible environmental dislocations 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.920 because of global warming. There's still a huge sort of 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.960 excitement I think about the fact that they are self 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.440 governing and the fact that they are empowering women and 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.640 those kinds of activities, especially on the part of the 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:01.120 women's movement. Congress star just continue to you know, they've 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:06.680 built an alternative justice system. They are increasingly turning their 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.960 sort of economy as much as is feasible, and it's 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.320 a slow process, but into it more of a cooperative economy. 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.160 So all of those things are very much underway there. 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:19.840 And education is a huge part of that. 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.400 No, I mean, that's that's also true, it really is. 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.440 But just to speak to kind of the other side 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.200 of that, you know, Robert asked, sort of what is 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.240 life like, say, in a place like Commushula right now? 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.520 You know, I think in some ways it's a lot 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.200 like it was when when I was in a place 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.280 called Zirgon, which is another frontline city where at the 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.400 same time Debbie's describing people, life goes on. People trying 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.320 to build up civil society, They're trying to organize the 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.880 communes and the cooperatives. At the same time, there's a 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:57.640 tremendous fear and uncertainty, fear in an immediate sense around 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:00.600 these drone strikes. I mean, you guys have been there too, 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.880 write like I've been home, I think eleven months now, 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.160 and I still every time I hear a small airplane, 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.960 my body, just even if my brain knows that it's 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.160 just a plane, like, my body's convinced it's a Turkish drone. 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:14.720 And imagine, you know you live your whole life in 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:16.800 a place like that, or you've spent the last ten years, 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.720 So a lot of people are living in this constant 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.120 state of fear an uncertainty. 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:23.520 Even on a practical level. 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.920 You know, say you're a farmer and you're going to 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:28.800 plant your seats this year, do you know that you're 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.360 even going to have your land in a month or 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.360 six months? You know, people are taking Turkey's threat of 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.640 an invasion seriously. It hasn't happened again since twenty nineteen, 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.600 but I can tell you I talk to people there 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.120 almost every day, and they're taking it extremely seriously. So 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:51.560 there's kind of this idea of impending invasion sort of 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.200 hangs like a cloud over daily life in so many ways. 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.560 And on top of all of that, of course, since 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.480 I left Northeast Syria, there was this major wave of 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:05.800 attacks against civilian infrastructure right around the time you were 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.200 there last, James, you know, and you can probably speak 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.280 to it more, but I mean we're talking about power 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:17.480 stations and oil wells and hospitals and schools and food 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:22.960 storage facilities. So they're still really reeling from these infrastructure attacks. 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:27.000 Cutting off electricity to a million people at a time 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.040 and water supplies. 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.399 Which is about a third of the population of the region. 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:35.080 Yeah, I mean, you know, war crimes. There's another word 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:36.760 for it, that's what they're called. 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.639 Yeah, it's a very jarring experience at East in my 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.000 time there, which is much briefer, and then the amount 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.720 of time both of you have spent there to go 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.000 out in the daytime and talk to people and see 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.200 this incredible optimism for like we are building a different 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.200 worlds and like it's there and you can see it 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.040 and we're moving towards it. It's not like, you know, 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.040 we're building a different world when we have encampments on 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:05.080 campus too, But this is a tangible societal product. 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:09.000 Yeah, Well, and that it speaks to that's why the 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.239 attacks Turkey is carrying out take the form they're taking, right, 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:18.200 because the priority, the primary strength of the self administration 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:22.119 is not in its arms. It's in its ability to 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.960 provide a functional civil society that people are motivated to 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.840 take part in, which is why their primary weapon is 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.480 to try to destroy the ability of people to live. 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:34.240 Yeah, and that's what it. 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.320 Feels like, like you know my experience with a brief 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.280 you know, we lost electricity every night. People are not 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.119 willing or people are less willing to go out and 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:50.880 drive long distances after dark. There is very clearly damage 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:52.960 to the infrastructure. You know, I was in a couple 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.440 of different places. One of them was having issues getting 0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:01.840 getting water pumped. There are massive funerals right for people 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:03.600 who have been killed, and you get to see this 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.680 what is like it's a beautiful spectacle in a sense, 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:10.080 but also like, you know, you can't spend a week 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.760 in Roger were a Nazi a little baby say goodbye 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:18.160 to their dad or just a dead baby, and that's 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.080 that's terrible, you know. And like the one thing that 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.200 I noticed, which I think people might not have picked 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:28.639 up on, just sort of consuming media the presence of 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.200 people hop about martyrs as they call them, right shaheeds. 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:38.399 It's so it's everywhere, Like from the first place I 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.280 step foot across the river, you know, there were these portraits, 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.800 these yellow and green portraits on around about since cities 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.840 and people's homes. Like the scale of the sacrifice both 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.080 to build this project and to defeat ISIS, I think 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:55.040 is very hot. I mean in the United States has 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.719 been more for most of our lives, but it has 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.480 nowhere near the same impact on our data the lives 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:01.280 it has had there. 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:03.520 Yeah, that's so true. 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.720 There's not a family really in Rogeval. When you spend 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.920 some time there and you meet with different people, there's 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.560 not a single family that hasn't lost somebody. I mean, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:17.679 it's thirteen thousand people in the fight against ISIS alone 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.239 and now, and not to mention, for example, the two 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:26.159 hundred thousand people who were displaced when Turkey is you know, 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:34.520 jihadi malicious invaded Afrin, the westernmost region. So it's it's 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:37.359 absolutely effect of everyday life. 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:41.080 Yeah, every time I spend a lot of time volunteering 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.720 at the border, as people listening know, and every time 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:50.440 we meet Kurdish people often they're from Northern Kurdistan, which 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.480 is in Turkey under in control of the Turkish State. 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.400 I guess even like the volunteers who are not super 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.280 briefed out jaba, who are just people who want to help. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.520 Like everyone knows what it means when people when you 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.200 talk to people and they have the little green picture 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.120 of the little little yellow picture on them, Yeah, which 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.960 is it's a profound part of the lived experience of 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.560 being part of the Kurdish freedom movement or just existing 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:16.160 as a Kurdish person in that area. And that's it's 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:17.879 it's really hard to grasp the scale of that. 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:19.720 No, it's so true. 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.400 I mean, it just makes me think that it's kind 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.280 of related to this larger sort of spirit of sacrifice 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:30.320 that's part of what the movement calls, like a revolutionary personality. 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.639 You know, in a lot of ways, the families of 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.560 you know what, they call them martyrs, they also see 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:41.280 it as their sacrifice, it's their contribution to the movement. 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.879 And it's it's easy for I think Westerners to kind of, 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:48.159 I don't know, dismiss it or get really uncomfortable with it. 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:51.120 We're not familiar with that on a cultural level as 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.680 much but I think it's it's a mistake to see 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:59.159 it that way. I think there's something incredibly profound about 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:01.800 it that has to do with the way that people 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.679 really identify their whole lives, the meaning of their lives 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.920 with the revolution, with the movement, that that is what, 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:10.119 that is the purpose of their life, that's the purpose 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.760 of the life of their their families, and come what may, 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.600 that's something that you know, movements here can't really relate 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:19.480 to in the same way. 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:23.280 Yet, I think, yeah, and I kind of want to 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.080 talk a little bit more about that. We're gonna We're 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:28.800 gonna throw one last time to adds and then we'll 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:43.920 come back and kind of flesh out this discussion, and 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:48.159 we're back talking about like what it means to be 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:52.280 part of a revolution as opposed to someone who has 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.560 revolutionary sympathies, which it's easy to be, and we have 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:57.520 a lot of those in the United States. I'm going 0:22:57.560 --> 0:22:59.240 to guess most of the people listening to this show 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.080 have least some of those, right. Whether or not you 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:05.639 think there's any realistic chance of seeing that during your 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:09.520 own life, it's a very different thing from being from 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:13.240 living it, which people do you know about three million 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:19.240 of them in Rojava every day, and the sacrifice is 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:25.119 a part of it. The kind of continual conflict is 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:27.840 another part of it, because you know, it's worth emphasizing 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:31.120 we're about a decade into the project right now, right 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:33.680 if we consider that being from you know, the start 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:37.280 of the self administration in varying fashions, and that's not 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.639 like it's not a perfectly even process, right because it 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.320 occurred as part of this series of broader conflicts. But 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:48.280 what you've seen is both the retreat of the government 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:53.399 that had formerly controlled the area. You've seen a successful 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:56.760 war prosecuted against isis you've seen when you could look 0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:59.720 at as one conflict or kind of a series of 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:02.879 conflicts with both these Turkish backed militias and the Turkish 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:08.840 military itself. And then this also this continuing conflict both 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:12.040 with the environment, you know, just because that that is 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:16.440 really that that's a force at work here, the Cold War, 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:19.720 that kind of that's not even really a perfect way 0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:22.920 of describing the situation with the the Assad regime and 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:25.959 with you know, their their backers and their Russian government, 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:30.320 but it's a it's it's a complex, interwoven series of conflict. 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:34.040