1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: All Ze Media. Welcome back to It Could Happen Here, 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: a podcast about it happening here. And you know, when 3 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: we talk about like collapse, things falling apart, there's very 4 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: few case studies that are more important for folks to 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: be aware of than what has happened and is continuing 6 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: to happen in Northeast Syria, in a region of the 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: world known as Rojava or the Autonomous Regions of Northeast Syria. 8 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: And I'm here with James Stout. He and I have 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: both reported from the ro Javon project, and we are 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: talking again with Arthur and Debbie Bookchin about what's going 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: on there now, kind of as the struggle continues, so 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: to speak. 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: That's right, and thank you very much for joining us. Arthurine, Debbie, 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 2: and you're both here in your capacity as representatives of 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: the Emergency Committee for Rajava. 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: Right, that's right, and thanks for having us. 17 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for coming back. 18 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: So I think perhaps we should begin by explaining what 19 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 2: ECI is and does. I've been very fortunate to be 20 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 2: asked to speak at one of your meetings, so I'm familiar, 21 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: but I think maybe some of our listeners wouldn't be. 22 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: So could you begin with explaining what it is what 23 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 2: it does. 24 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, so, the Emergency Committee for Rojeva is it's 25 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 4: kind of the only standing US based organization focused on 26 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 4: solidarity with the Rojeva Revolution. And what we do is 27 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 4: we try to build a grassroots solidarity movement with the 28 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 4: revolution in North East Syria, with the Curtis Freedom movement 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 4: more broadly, and we do that in a few different ways. 30 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 4: One is like just trying to inform the public right 31 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 4: so kind of public education. Another is advocacy trying to 32 00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 4: sort of put pressure on the United States government to 33 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 4: stop arming people who are trying to kill everybody in 34 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 4: Rogevo and to support the people instead. But another thing 35 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 4: that we do is try to build kind of movement 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 4: to movement relationships. None like finding social movements in the 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 4: United States that we think share a lot of affinity 38 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 4: with movement over there, try to put them in touch 39 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 4: and try to kind of facilitate dialogue. 40 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 41 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: No, I mean I think it's important to kind of start, 42 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: as we often do, with the attempt to get the 43 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: US government to stop arming folks killing the people there, 44 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: which in this case refers specifically to the Turkish military. 45 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: I mean, we're all kind of dealing with in a 46 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: separate part of the world, how difficult it is to 47 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: stop the United States government from arming people. 48 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 5: Do that, right, Yeah, it's a great point, Robert. You know, 49 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 5: I think sometimes it's hard for people to even comprehend 50 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 5: just the massive flow of weapons from the United States 51 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 5: to Turkey. I mean, over the years it's been it's 52 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 5: just I think in the last fifteen years alone, the 53 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 5: US has sold Turkey something like four billion dollars worth 54 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 5: of Patriot missiles alone, you know, and then billions or 55 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 5: at least millions, and you know, helicopters, the Cobra attack helicopters. 56 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 3: There is just a huge. 57 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 5: Flow of arms from the United States to Turkey. And 58 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 5: as Arthur said, you know, one of the things that 59 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 5: we really do try and do at ECR is to 60 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 5: get people not only aware but also into doing some 61 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 5: advocacy on that. And one of the things that we're 62 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 5: also trying to prevent right now is the sale of 63 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 5: any more F sixteen's to Turkey, which, as I'm sure 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 5: your listeners know, are used in the bombing of people 65 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 5: in Rojeva and also in Turkey and in northern Iraq. 66 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 5: So that's a very critical issue in. 67 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: Fact, yeah, yeah, and it's a critical issue in part 68 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: because like what we're seeing is a I would describe 69 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: it as a pretty concentrated attempt to destroy civil society 70 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: in Rojeva, right, Like, you're absolutely not just through the 71 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: use of air strikes, through things like blocking off access 72 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: to water, but the f sixteens that Turkey purchases from 73 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: the United States and the continuing armaments to keep those 74 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 1: things flying and firing missiles are a huge part of 75 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: how they're able to continue degrading the capacity of the 76 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: self administration to maintain civil society exactly. 77 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 5: I mean, there is really an aim there, aim to 78 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 5: completely destabilize the society, to shake confidence and the autonomous administration, 79 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 5: to break morale, to engage in psychological terror, and frankly, 80 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,679 Speaker 5: you know, also to do physical harm. As I'm sure 81 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 5: you know and your listeners know. They Turkey very effectively 82 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 5: uses drones and other methods to take out leadership, particularly 83 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 5: female leadership, women who are leaders of the movement. And 84 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 5: you know, there's not a day that goes by really 85 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 5: that doesn't include strikes from Turkey into Rojeva. I mean, 86 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 5: I'm just thinking, you know, the Membij military Council just 87 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 5: has reported in the last couple of days that the 88 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 5: State of Turkey has shelled various villages and membies. You 89 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 5: know that Kurdish neighborhoods in Aleppo are really subjected to 90 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 5: continuous embargoes by the Damascus government, but also you know, 91 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 5: Turkey intercedes to prevent supplies from getting to these places. 92 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 5: So it's really I think there's something like more than 93 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 5: two hundred bombings by Turkey Racky Kurdistan even since just 94 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 5: the beginning of the year, So it's really ongoing assault. 95 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 4: No, absolutely, I think you know, for people who are 96 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 4: less familiar with it, it's easy to kind of get 97 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 4: bogged down in the weeds because all the details they 98 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 4: change every day. But I think the broadze strokes are pretty. 99 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: Clear and they haven't changed for a long time. I mean, 100 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: Turkey sees. 101 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 4: This revolution rightly so as a threat to its own power, 102 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 4: to its own ideology. You know, the idea that local 103 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 4: communities would govern themselves pluralistically through autonomy is a direct 104 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 4: threat to the idea of the Turkish state, which is 105 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 4: basically a fascist nation state. And they kind of have 106 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 4: a twofold strategy. I think you could see it this way, right. So, 107 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 4: like for those who don't know, Turkey has already invade 108 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 4: in Northeastiria multiple times. It's invaded Euphrine in twenty eighteen, 109 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 4: set Kanye te Labiat in twenty nineteen, and it occupies 110 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 4: that territory still to this day. But when it's been 111 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 4: unable to seize more territory directly, it kind of has 112 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 4: this twofold strategy where the other side of the coin 113 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 4: is to just do everything possible to make life unlivable, right, 114 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 4: So that's where the assassinations come in. 115 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: That's where the sort. 116 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 4: Of information warfare, blocking of water, sort of economic embargo. 117 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 4: The basic idea is just to spread fear, to spread 118 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 4: uncertainty into every sphere of life, and like you said, Robert, 119 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 4: to basically attack civil society itself. 120 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if you could explain. I think our 121 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: listeners are maybe familiar with the campaign against civil society 122 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: and civilian targets that we saw in October November of 123 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: last year, that I saw some of while I was there. 124 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: But Turkey's recently launched like a spring offensive, right, which 125 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: doesn't isn't exclusively unlimited to bombing, but also it contains 126 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: like I guess combined ons infantry bombing. Can you explain 127 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: what's happening there and what the sort of I think 128 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: the plan you've sort of very well summed up already, right, 129 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: which is to make life unlivable for the Kurdish freedom movement. 130 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: But can you explain what's been happening in the last 131 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: few weeks for people who haven't caught up. 132 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 4: So for one, for people to understand the connection in 133 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 4: the first place, right, it's important to understand that really, 134 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 4: while there are distinct organizations which are autonomous and are 135 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 4: place based within the Kurdish movement, right there's they have 136 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 4: their own parties and self defense forces in Syria and 137 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 4: in Iraq and other parts of Kurdistan. 138 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: It's important to see it also. 139 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 4: As kind of one big Kurtish freedom movement in another 140 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 4: sense and an important sense, because Turkey sees it in 141 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 4: that light. So for the same reasons the Turkey wants 142 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 4: to crush the revolution in northeast Syria, the Turkey wants 143 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,599 Speaker 4: to crush the PKK, the Kurdistan Workers Party, right, and 144 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 4: the gorillas of the PKK are based in northern Iraq, 145 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 4: and time and time again they've tried to sort of 146 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 4: dislodge the gorilla forces from the mountains. 147 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 3: But it's pretty hard to do. 148 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 4: You know, this is NATO's second largest military and they 149 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,599 Speaker 4: still after decades, have not been able to crush this 150 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 4: like insurgency, and so what we're seeing. 151 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 3: In recent weeks is not necessarily so novel. 152 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:19,599 Speaker 4: I mean, you can, again, you can get into the 153 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 4: weeds about the region of Metina and a particular road 154 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 4: that they're trying to seize for logistics on their way 155 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 4: to the mountain of Ghara. But the truth is they're 156 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 4: trying to crush the movement where it is and they're 157 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 4: seizing an opportunity. There's often like a weather window for 158 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 4: the fighting in the mountains as well, and so when 159 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 4: the snow starts to melt in the spring, you start 160 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 4: to see an escalation of the fighting in the mountains, 161 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 4: which often winds down in the fall. 162 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: Again, but it's yet to be seen how this is 163 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 3: going to go. 164 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 4: I mean, y'all have I don't have to tell you right, 165 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 4: like you've done some recent episodes on technological developments with 166 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 4: the movement, and Turkey's been having a really hard time 167 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 4: gains on the ground. 168 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 5: And also I mean, as I think as Megan Bodette 169 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 5: noted on this podcast recently, you know, the Turkish leader 170 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 5: Erdowan tends to take out any insults he feels he suffered, 171 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 5: and particularly elections setbacks has happened in the local elections 172 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 5: at the end of March on the Kurdish regions everywhere 173 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 5: in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and so we're seeing also crackdowns 174 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 5: has happened also for quite some time, but on journalists 175 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 5: again sort of cranking up again. It's funny that on 176 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:48,479 Speaker 5: World Press Day, which was May third, Kurdish journalist was arrested, 177 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 5: you know, strip search, a woman thrown in jail, and 178 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 5: this is you know, another sort of wave of politicians 179 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 5: being arrested. Just again on Monday, I think thirteen politicians 180 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 5: were sentenced to six years plus in jail in prison. 181 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 5: So this sort of policy that seems to show itself 182 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 5: every time Airdawan feels a bit threatened is one that 183 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 5: we're seeing right now, in part I think as a 184 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 5: result of those election defeats that his party suffered. 185 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 186 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 4: Absolutely, and as sinister as it is, whenever they lose 187 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 4: in the mountains, they often hit harder in North Eastyria 188 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 4: and vice versa. So it's all just a big kind 189 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 4: of ugly game that they're playing. 190 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: Well, I want to get to some more here, but 191 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: first we've got to take a quick break. We're going 192 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: to throw to some ads and then we'll come back 193 00:11:48,480 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: and continue this discussion. All right, we're back, and I'm 194 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: trying to get a sense of how the situation is 195 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: on the ground right now despite the or considering the 196 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: challenges of the attacks on infrastructure that have continued to 197 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: go on, Like, what are we looking at from a 198 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: daily life point of view in places like Camichelo. 199 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 5: Well, you know, one of the things that I think 200 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 5: is important to emphasize is just how strong a lot 201 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 5: of the civil structures really are even in the face 202 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 5: of these attacks by Turkey. And I'm sure Arthur will 203 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 5: have something to say about that, and also about maybe 204 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 5: some of the sort of the military side of this. 205 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 5: But you know, the extraordinary thing about Rojeva is just 206 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 5: how deeply engaged they are on the civil level. In 207 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 5: our group at the Emergency Committee for Rozeva, we're in 208 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 5: contact with a lot of people in civil society and 209 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 5: I'm always amazed at how many sort of requests we 210 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 5: get for you know, exchanges of information and scholars, and 211 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 5: they're building the university there to do more and more 212 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 5: technical things, you know, whether computers or agricultural sciences or 213 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 5: you know, just a vast variety of graduate program they 214 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 5: want to do right now in social ecology that I've 215 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 5: been working with them on. And so, even though there's 216 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 5: this effort by Turkey to kind of terrorize the civilian population, 217 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 5: and I'm sure you know, people can imagine what it 218 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 5: must feel like to have drones flying constantly overhead and 219 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 5: wondering if you get into a car whether it might 220 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,239 Speaker 5: you might you know, be the subject of a drone attack. Nonetheless, 221 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 5: there is still this extraordinary sort of hopefulness and also 222 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 5: energy towards building the society. And for example, but one 223 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 5: of the things that they recently did, and it took 224 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 5: a long time, but they rewrote their Social Contract, which 225 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 5: is what we would think of as a constitution, to 226 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 5: empower women even more, you know, to empower various ethnic 227 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 5: minorities more, and to make it a document that is 228 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 5: truly inclusive in terms of how it was written and 229 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 5: how it will be implemented, and so on the ground, 230 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 5: I think, even though they are suffering in a lot 231 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 5: of ways, and they are because you know, Rojeve is 232 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 5: also a region that is subject to terrible environmental dislocations 233 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 5: because of global warming. There's still a huge sort of 234 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 5: excitement I think about the fact that they are self 235 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 5: governing and the fact that they are empowering women and 236 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 5: those kinds of activities, especially on the part of the 237 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 5: women's movement. Congress star just continue to you know, they've 238 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 5: built an alternative justice system. They are increasingly turning their 239 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 5: sort of economy as much as is feasible, and it's 240 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 5: a slow process, but into it more of a cooperative economy. 241 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 5: So all of those things are very much underway there. 242 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 5: And education is a huge part of that. 243 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 3: No, I mean, that's that's also true, it really is. 244 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 4: But just to speak to kind of the other side 245 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 4: of that, you know, Robert asked, sort of what is 246 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 4: life like, say, in a place like Commushula right now? 247 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 4: You know, I think in some ways it's a lot 248 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 4: like it was when when I was in a place 249 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 4: called Zirgon, which is another frontline city where at the 250 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 4: same time Debbie's describing people, life goes on. People trying 251 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 4: to build up civil society, They're trying to organize the 252 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 4: communes and the cooperatives. At the same time, there's a 253 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 4: tremendous fear and uncertainty, fear in an immediate sense around 254 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 4: these drone strikes. I mean, you guys have been there too, 255 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 4: write like I've been home, I think eleven months now, 256 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 4: and I still every time I hear a small airplane, 257 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 4: my body, just even if my brain knows that it's 258 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 4: just a plane, like, my body's convinced it's a Turkish drone. 259 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 4: And imagine, you know you live your whole life in 260 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 4: a place like that, or you've spent the last ten years, 261 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 4: So a lot of people are living in this constant 262 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 4: state of fear an uncertainty. 263 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 3: Even on a practical level. 264 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 4: You know, say you're a farmer and you're going to 265 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 4: plant your seats this year, do you know that you're 266 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 4: even going to have your land in a month or 267 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 4: six months? You know, people are taking Turkey's threat of 268 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 4: an invasion seriously. It hasn't happened again since twenty nineteen, 269 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 4: but I can tell you I talk to people there 270 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 4: almost every day, and they're taking it extremely seriously. So 271 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 4: there's kind of this idea of impending invasion sort of 272 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 4: hangs like a cloud over daily life in so many ways. 273 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 4: And on top of all of that, of course, since 274 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 4: I left Northeast Syria, there was this major wave of 275 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 4: attacks against civilian infrastructure right around the time you were 276 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 4: there last, James, you know, and you can probably speak 277 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 4: to it more, but I mean we're talking about power 278 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 4: stations and oil wells and hospitals and schools and food 279 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 4: storage facilities. So they're still really reeling from these infrastructure attacks. 280 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 5: Cutting off electricity to a million people at a time 281 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 5: and water supplies. 282 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: Which is about a third of the population of the region. 283 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, war crimes. There's another word 284 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 3: for it, that's what they're called. 285 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very jarring experience at East in my 286 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: time there, which is much briefer, and then the amount 287 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 2: of time both of you have spent there to go 288 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: out in the daytime and talk to people and see 289 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 2: this incredible optimism for like we are building a different 290 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 2: worlds and like it's there and you can see it 291 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 2: and we're moving towards it. It's not like, you know, 292 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 2: we're building a different world when we have encampments on 293 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: campus too, But this is a tangible societal product. 294 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, and that it speaks to that's why the 295 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 1: attacks Turkey is carrying out take the form they're taking, right, 296 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: because the priority, the primary strength of the self administration 297 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: is not in its arms. It's in its ability to 298 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: provide a functional civil society that people are motivated to 299 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: take part in, which is why their primary weapon is 300 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: to try to destroy the ability of people to live. 301 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what it. 302 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: Feels like, like you know my experience with a brief 303 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: you know, we lost electricity every night. People are not 304 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 2: willing or people are less willing to go out and 305 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 2: drive long distances after dark. There is very clearly damage 306 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 2: to the infrastructure. You know, I was in a couple 307 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: of different places. One of them was having issues getting 308 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: getting water pumped. There are massive funerals right for people 309 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: who have been killed, and you get to see this 310 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 2: what is like it's a beautiful spectacle in a sense, 311 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: but also like, you know, you can't spend a week 312 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: in Roger were a Nazi a little baby say goodbye 313 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: to their dad or just a dead baby, and that's 314 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: that's terrible, you know. And like the one thing that 315 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: I noticed, which I think people might not have picked 316 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 2: up on, just sort of consuming media the presence of 317 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 2: people hop about martyrs as they call them, right shaheeds. 318 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 2: It's so it's everywhere, Like from the first place I 319 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 2: step foot across the river, you know, there were these portraits, 320 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: these yellow and green portraits on around about since cities 321 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: and people's homes. Like the scale of the sacrifice both 322 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: to build this project and to defeat ISIS, I think 323 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: is very hot. I mean in the United States has 324 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 2: been more for most of our lives, but it has 325 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 2: nowhere near the same impact on our data the lives 326 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 2: it has had there. 327 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so true. 328 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 5: There's not a family really in Rogeval. When you spend 329 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 5: some time there and you meet with different people, there's 330 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 5: not a single family that hasn't lost somebody. I mean, 331 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 5: it's thirteen thousand people in the fight against ISIS alone 332 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,239 Speaker 5: and now, and not to mention, for example, the two 333 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 5: hundred thousand people who were displaced when Turkey is you know, 334 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 5: jihadi malicious invaded Afrin, the westernmost region. So it's it's 335 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 5: absolutely effect of everyday life. 336 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, every time I spend a lot of time volunteering 337 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: at the border, as people listening know, and every time 338 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 2: we meet Kurdish people often they're from Northern Kurdistan, which 339 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: is in Turkey under in control of the Turkish State. 340 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 2: I guess even like the volunteers who are not super 341 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: briefed out jaba, who are just people who want to help. 342 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: Like everyone knows what it means when people when you 343 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 2: talk to people and they have the little green picture 344 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 2: of the little little yellow picture on them, Yeah, which 345 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: is it's a profound part of the lived experience of 346 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 2: being part of the Kurdish freedom movement or just existing 347 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 2: as a Kurdish person in that area. And that's it's 348 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 2: it's really hard to grasp the scale of that. 349 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 3: No, it's so true. 350 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 4: I mean, it just makes me think that it's kind 351 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 4: of related to this larger sort of spirit of sacrifice 352 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 4: that's part of what the movement calls, like a revolutionary personality. 353 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 4: You know, in a lot of ways, the families of 354 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 4: you know what, they call them martyrs, they also see 355 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 4: it as their sacrifice, it's their contribution to the movement. 356 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 4: And it's it's easy for I think Westerners to kind of, 357 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 4: I don't know, dismiss it or get really uncomfortable with it. 358 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 4: We're not familiar with that on a cultural level as 359 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 4: much but I think it's it's a mistake to see 360 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 4: it that way. I think there's something incredibly profound about 361 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 4: it that has to do with the way that people 362 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 4: really identify their whole lives, the meaning of their lives 363 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 4: with the revolution, with the movement, that that is what, 364 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 4: that is the purpose of their life, that's the purpose 365 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 4: of the life of their their families, and come what may, 366 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 4: that's something that you know, movements here can't really relate 367 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 4: to in the same way. 368 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: Yet, I think, yeah, and I kind of want to 369 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about that. We're gonna We're 370 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: gonna throw one last time to adds and then we'll 371 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: come back and kind of flesh out this discussion, and 372 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: we're back talking about like what it means to be 373 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: part of a revolution as opposed to someone who has 374 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: revolutionary sympathies, which it's easy to be, and we have 375 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: a lot of those in the United States. I'm going 376 00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: to guess most of the people listening to this show 377 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: have least some of those, right. Whether or not you 378 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: think there's any realistic chance of seeing that during your 379 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: own life, it's a very different thing from being from 380 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: living it, which people do you know about three million 381 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: of them in Rojava every day, and the sacrifice is 382 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: a part of it. The kind of continual conflict is 383 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: another part of it, because you know, it's worth emphasizing 384 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: we're about a decade into the project right now, right 385 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: if we consider that being from you know, the start 386 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: of the self administration in varying fashions, and that's not 387 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: like it's not a perfectly even process, right because it 388 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: occurred as part of this series of broader conflicts. But 389 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: what you've seen is both the retreat of the government 390 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: that had formerly controlled the area. You've seen a successful 391 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: war prosecuted against isis you've seen when you could look 392 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: at as one conflict or kind of a series of 393 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: conflicts with both these Turkish backed militias and the Turkish 394 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: military itself. And then this also this continuing conflict both 395 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: with the environment, you know, just because that that is 396 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: really that that's a force at work here, the Cold War, 397 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: that kind of that's not even really a perfect way 398 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: of describing the situation with the the Assad regime and 399 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 1: with you know, their their backers and their Russian government, 400 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: but it's a it's it's a complex, interwoven series of conflict. 401 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: But but kind of the result is just a life 402 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: of conflict for the people who are are part of 403 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: this revolution as sort of a just a fact of 404 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: daily life. And I think that is really hard to grasp. 405 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 2: Mmm. 406 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 3: I think that's true. 407 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 4: And I think there's there's part of it, like you say, 408 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 4: that has to do with this the sort of objective situation, 409 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 4: with the conditions that people are living in, this perpetual 410 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 4: conflict that you're talking about, And at the same time, 411 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 4: I think there's also an aspect that's more like, I 412 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 4: don't know, like. 413 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 3: Subjective, you could call it. 414 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 4: It has to do with the kind of movement that 415 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 4: they've really actively been building for themselves and the kind 416 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 4: of spirit that their movement has taken on that they've 417 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 4: cultivated themselves, sort of painstaking me for years. I mean, 418 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 4: I think one of the things that I know, Debbie 419 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 4: and I really want to get to in our conversations 420 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 4: with the speaking tour that we're working on, which is 421 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 4: coming up later later this month on the West Coast, 422 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 4: is we really, well, we want people to be. 423 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 3: Inspired by this revolution. 424 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,479 Speaker 4: We really don't want people to just see it as 425 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 4: this very like other thing on the other side of 426 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 4: the world, you know, even those who are really supportive, 427 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 4: especially as you know anarchistory, say, fellow travelers, we have 428 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 4: a tendency to kind of maybe oversimplify or romanticize what's 429 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 4: happening over there and think, oh, well, you know, if 430 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 4: the state could just collapse here, I'm sure everybody would 431 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 4: just sort of like melt into an anarchist utopia of statelessness. 432 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 3: And that would be a mistake too. 433 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 4: I think the truth is that what Rojava shows you 434 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 4: is a real revolution is incredibly messy, and they only 435 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 4: were able to kind of face the threats and the 436 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 4: opportunities that crisis brought to them in Syria because of 437 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 4: the kind of movement they had built for themselves, and 438 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 4: they had these practical tools to kind of help local 439 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 4: communities govern themselves in that sort of chaos in the 440 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 4: power vacuum that arose. And you know, in a moment 441 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 4: like this the world over, especially here in the United States, 442 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 4: you know, we're the crises that we're facing, the crisis 443 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 4: that we're looking down the barrel of. I think there's 444 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 4: been no more kind of relevant or urgent time to 445 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 4: think about how those lessons actually could apply here and 446 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 4: what it means for us, what kind of movement do 447 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 4: we need to build to be ready for that moment. 448 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I really agree, And Robert, I'm glad 449 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 5: you mentioned, you know, the fact that the revolution is 450 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 5: over ten years old, because I think, you know, and 451 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 5: to follow up sort of just on what Arthur was 452 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 5: saying that sort of sometimes the crises that we face 453 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 5: environmentally logical, global warming and not to mention democracy itself, 454 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 5: you know, can seem almost paralyzing, or that we're constantly 455 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 5: in a state of reaction. But one of the things 456 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 5: that the revolution in Rojev teaches us is that, first 457 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 5: of all, that moments of crisis can also be moments 458 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 5: of great transformation, but really only if we're prepared for them. 459 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 5: And that's why, you know, whenever I talk about the 460 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 5: Rojeva project, I feel it's important to remind people that 461 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 5: it didn't just spring miraculously out of nowhere in the 462 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 5: moment of the Syrian Civil War. The folks on the 463 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 5: ground there had really been preparing for years, I mean decades, 464 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 5: even for the opportunity that opened up for them during 465 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 5: the Syrian Civil War. And in various ways, of course, 466 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 5: they were educating themselves on radical history and particular understanding 467 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 5: you know, the failures of classical Marxism, Leninism, you know, 468 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 5: which had been embraced previously by the PKK, and and 469 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 5: putting also into practice clandestinely the kinds of grassroots democratic 470 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 5: social structures that we see operating on the ground there today. 471 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 5: So I think that that's one of the lessons that 472 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 5: we hear in the US can absorb that, you know, 473 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 5: that we need to be able to exploit the crisis 474 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 5: of legitimacy that's growing here today, thinking about what kind 475 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 5: of alternatives we want to build and showing people that 476 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 5: those alternatives exists, you know those yeah, that, and you 477 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 5: know that's includes engaging in a kind of prefigurative politics 478 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 5: that that really focuses on things like dual power, you know, 479 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 5: cooperative economic project but also local assembly democratic politics. So 480 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 5: that's one of the things that I'm also really excited 481 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 5: about talking about talking about as Arthur and I make 482 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 5: our way from Seattle down to San Francisco and Oakland 483 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 5: during the course of these six presentations and chats and 484 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 5: talks and discussions that we're really excited about having beginning 485 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 5: next weekend. 486 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's let's let's provide people with a 487 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: little bit of information on how you know they might 488 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: be able to attend and take part in that. So 489 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: what what should folks look up and look into if 490 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: they if they're interested in where are you guys going 491 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: to be? 492 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah, thanks. 493 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 4: I think the best thing people can do is go 494 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 4: to defend dot org. That's the website for the Emergency 495 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 4: Committee for Rojeva, our group. But right there at the 496 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 4: front page, you're going to see a poster for our 497 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 4: tour that you can click on. It'll take you to 498 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 4: links for all the different stops that we're going to do. 499 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 4: We're going to be making our way all the way 500 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 4: from Bellingham, Washington, which is up near the border of. 501 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 3: Canada, down to the Bay Area, and you know, we 502 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 3: really wish we could make more cities. 503 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 4: There are a couple events that are our comrades and 504 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 4: colleagues are organizing on the East Coast around the same timeframe, 505 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 4: so be sure to look up the calendar on our website. 506 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 3: But people can go to defend dot org to hear more. 507 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 4: But the basic idea, like Debbie said, is we want 508 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 4: to talk to people not only about what's going on 509 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 4: in Rogevo. Why we think it matters how they can 510 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 4: stand in solidarity. But we want to talk about what 511 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 4: we're going to do in our own communities to take 512 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 4: those lessons and to apply them to our own context. 513 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 4: We want to help connect people who are doing you know, 514 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 4: real community organizing in local movements, and to try to 515 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 4: kind of inspire and strengthen what's already going on, rather 516 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 4: than just to see this as being strictly about Roseevolk, 517 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 4: because I mean, y'all probably were told the same thing 518 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 4: when when you're over there and you ask people what 519 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 4: can we do to support, one of the things they'll 520 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 4: tell you is you've got to organize the revolution at home. 521 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 3: And that's on us. You know, it's easier said than done, right, 522 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 3: and we're not saying we have. 523 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 4: All the answers, but what we do want to do 524 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 4: is to invite local grassroots activists especially to come join 525 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 4: the discussion and let's talk together about what it would 526 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 4: mean to apply these basic principles, not to copy and 527 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 4: paste them, but to apply these basic principles and lessons, 528 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 4: principles of direct democracy, local autonomy, you know, cooperation, feminism. 529 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 4: We haven't even talked about how central, you know, gender 530 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 4: liberation is. 531 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 3: To the Kurdish freedom movement. How do we apply these 532 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 3: things in our own communities. 533 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, And one of the things, by the way, if 534 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 5: people are interested in getting some more detail and a 535 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 5: real inside look at what is going on in Rojaeven 536 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 5: detail is that Arthur has two pieces in the magazine 537 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 5: Strange Matters, which is also online, which are just terrific 538 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 5: and they're part of a series that he's going to 539 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 5: be doing, i think monthly over the next few months. 540 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 5: And so that's some great background as well. 541 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 2: Aw shucks, Yeah, it's fantastic, Stev. 542 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank you. 543 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, check that out obviously, folks, if you haven't. We've 544 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: also got a podcast series, The Women's War, that covers 545 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: the earlier history of the Rajavan Revolution up to about 546 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, late twenty nineteen, which will cover quite a 547 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: bit of the of the impact that kind of this 548 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: sort of feminist lens has had on what's happening over 549 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: there and how it's actually persisted, you know, under the 550 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: conditions that are really kind of almost impossibly challenging when 551 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: you when you look at what these people are up again, 552 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: which is part of again, I guess ultimately why as 553 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: we've repeatedly come back to I think this is so 554 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: important for people in the West to study as things 555 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: get worse for a lot of folks here and as 556 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: we attempt to arrest and take charge of the situation 557 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: in our own lives. You know, we have all these 558 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: questions about how do we stop our government from arming 559 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: not just Turkey, but all of these regimes around the 560 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: world that are doing such terrible things. How do we stop, 561 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: how do we arrest you know, these problems that are 562 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 1: continuing to affect you know, really ultimately billions of people 563 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: around the world. It's taking charge of our own lives, 564 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: and the same way that these people have. It's kind 565 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: of making that slogan of the Rejavian Revolution, you know, 566 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: resistance is life. Actually embracing that in a way that matters, 567 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: And when you focus on sort of the challenges to 568 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: like the sheer amount of work that has to be 569 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: done here, the very primitive state of any kind of 570 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: meaningful resistance, the relatively primitive state of organizing on the left, 571 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: compared to, for example, the organizing that the right does 572 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: in tandem with paramilitaries in the state, it can seem 573 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: like an impossible challenge, but ten years on, the people 574 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: in Northeast Syria are still are still fighting, you know, 575 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: and I think you have to. I think paying attention 576 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: to that makes it clear that it is actually possible 577 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: to win. 578 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 3: So true. 579 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's kind of it for us today. 580 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: Is there anything else we want to plug? I just 581 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: wanted to go out on a better note. 582 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm writing a piece for Kurdish Piece Institute. I'm 583 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 2: manifesting this on the podcast, so I've actually write it 584 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 2: about me and Ma Kurtis stan S solidarity. 585 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: Which I think is cool, so great topic. 586 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,919 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I don't think we have a lot of time, 587 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: but I think that one thing that I've learned from 588 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 2: the friends in roche is that, like, even when you 589 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 2: are going through difficulties, you can still stand in solidarity 590 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 2: with other people. And God knows, we're all going through 591 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 2: difficulties in economic and political and state violence terms in 592 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 2: this country, and I think that like one thing I 593 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 2: really took from that was that it's never too hard 594 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 2: for you to be in solidarity. And I hope that 595 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: folks who are in this country will appreciate that and 596 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 2: be in solidarity with people in Rocheba as well. 597 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: Absolutely well, Debbie Arthur, Thank you both so much for 598 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: being here with us, and thank you for continuing to 599 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: do the work that you do to keep this topic 600 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: alive in people's hearts and minds. 601 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 3: Thank you all so much. 602 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, always happy. 603 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, keep up the great work yourselves. 604 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 1: All right, everybody, that's the episode. We will be back tomorrow, 605 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: unless this comes out on a Friday, in which case 606 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: we might not be back tomorrow, but we'll be back, 607 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: you know, Monday. You understand how this works at this point, right. 608 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 3: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 609 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 610 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,399 Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 611 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 612 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 4: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 613 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 4: monthly at Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. 614 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.