1 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope 8 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so 11 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: much for joining me for session two eighty of the 12 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our 13 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. If you're joining 14 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: us in the United States, our local elections are right 15 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: around the corner. A time to advocate for what we 16 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: believe in and call for reform in this country, a 17 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: political right many black women fought for in the past 18 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: and continue to fight for it today. For some of us, 19 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: the ballots will include options to promote criminal justice reform 20 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: and more specifically, police reform. The history of police activity 21 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: within the black American community is lengthy and muddled with trauma. 22 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: Yet one facet of that history that is too often 23 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: overlooked is the police's history with black children. This week, 24 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: I'm joined by Bloom, Professor of Law and director of 25 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: the Juvenile Justice Clinic and Initiative at Georgetown Law, and 26 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: former lead attorney of the Juvenile Unit at the Public 27 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: Defender Service, Kristin Hennings. Our conversation explores the narrative that 28 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: exists around fearing black children, how black children are criminalized 29 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: for every aspect of their adolescent behaviors, how over policing 30 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: impacts their mental health and identity formation, and how public 31 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: health approaches in schools and within our communities can remove 32 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: the footprint of police in the everyday lives of black children. 33 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please 34 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG 35 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: in Session, or join us over in the Sister Circle. 36 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: To talk more in depth about the episode, you can 37 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: join us at Community not Therapy for Black Girls dot com. 38 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining 39 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: us today, Kristen. Thank you so much for having me. 40 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: Looking forward to this conversation. Likewise, likewise, So can you 41 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: get us started by telling us a little bit about 42 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: your background and how you got into the work that 43 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: you currently do. Absolutely. So. I am currently a professor 44 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: at Georgetown Law School, and I am the director of 45 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: the Juvenile Justice Clinic and Initiative. So in my office 46 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: we represent children who have been accused of crime in 47 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: the nation's capital. In addition to that, we do a 48 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: broad array of racial justice work. Our mission is to 49 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: reduce racial disparities and to confront racial bias and racial 50 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: injustice in the juvenile legal system. And so that we 51 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: do that from a number of ways, from trainings to 52 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: resource development writing. We testify in various forea such as 53 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: city council hearings or state legislative bodies. It's a pretty 54 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: broad array. We might write briefs, legal briefs in various 55 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: cases across the country as a friend of the court briefs. 56 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: So that's what I do now. I came into this work, 57 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: into this passion for youth justice, and particularly youth justice 58 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: around black and brown children, because I grew up in 59 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: a family full of teachers and preachers, all of whom 60 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: were outspoken about children and the health and the well 61 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: being of children. So I think really by osmosis, I 62 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: just sort of grew into the work. And then when 63 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: I was in undergrad, I had an opportunity in Durham, 64 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 1: North Carolina to volunteer as an apprentice in a juvenile court. 65 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: And I will tell you, dr Joy, that I will 66 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 1: never forget the first day I walked into that court 67 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: building and I am on my way to find the 68 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: local prosecutor, and on my way to the juvenile co room, 69 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: I see a line of children chained together by their 70 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: arms and by their legs, and as you can imagine, 71 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: there were predominantly black and Latino boys in that line. 72 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: And I was blown away, truly blown away. I had 73 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: no idea in contemporary America that we shackled children by 74 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: their legs and by their feet, by their you know, ankles. 75 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: And for me, I stopped dead in my tracks and 76 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 1: I went into that courtroom and I remember sitting with 77 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: the prosecutor and pointing across the room saying, I want 78 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: to be over there. I want to be over there 79 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: with the children. And so that's when I knew I 80 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: wanted to be a defense attorney representing children. So that 81 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: was from my freshman year in college that I found 82 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: that passion and then I pursued it ever since. Wow, 83 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: so that feels like a very powerful experience to have 84 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: so early in your kind year the career that hadn't 85 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: even started yet. So tell me what it was like 86 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: to then chart your path from like that experienced freshman 87 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: year through law school and any other training that you've done. Like, 88 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: what did those stuffs look like? Yes? Well, so since 89 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: I knew that I had this passion for kids, and 90 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: I definitely came into the space with a passion for kids, 91 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: I didn't know what form it would take, but what 92 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: it meant for me being you know, an African American 93 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: student and Durham North Carolina. I was at Duke, but 94 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: I was so deeply embedded in the community. So we 95 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: were volunteering at local recreation facilities, working with at risk youth. 96 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: You know, we talked about them in much more powerful 97 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: terms today, but you know, young children who were from 98 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: low income neighborhoods. We were working with youth advocacy organizations 99 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: anytime we had that opportunity. So that's very what much 100 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: the way my undergrad career looked like. I was an 101 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: English major and an African American studies major and then 102 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: volunteering in the community. And then when I went to 103 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: law school, I went to law schools that had a 104 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: clinical program meeting an opportunity for law students to work 105 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: with folks in the community. I was looking for law 106 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: schools that had that opportunity, and that's what I found, 107 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: and so I went to law school and I started 108 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: from my first years, all three years in law school, 109 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: taking part in clinical courses, you know, special ed clinics 110 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: representing kids and special education proceedings. I represented kids in 111 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: abuse and neglect proceedings, and then in my third year 112 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: of law school, I said, I really want to represent 113 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: kids who are in the delinquency system, the kids that 114 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: adults have given up on, and so we started a 115 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: brand new clinic when I was in third year of 116 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: law school. And so from there, I graduated from law 117 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: school and moved to Washington, d C. And I've really 118 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: been here pretty much ever since and representing kids in 119 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: different capacities. I was at the DC Public Defender Service, 120 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: supervising the juvenile unit there for a while, and then 121 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: I came to Georgetown, and so I've done it in 122 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: a number of different varieties, but I've always represented kids 123 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: in court. No matter what else I'm doing, policy work, 124 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: training work, I always want to represent the kids. M hmmm, 125 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: what an incredible track record. And you have been doing 126 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: this for like more than twenty five years now, So 127 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: can you talk to me about like some of the 128 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: patterns maybe that you recognize between like race and kids 129 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: and policing. You nailed it, this notion of me having 130 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: represented children for twenty five years at this point, now 131 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: it's twenty six years, and in that entire time, I 132 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: have only represented four white children. Right, Everybody listening to 133 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: this podcast should be shocked because if you, you know, 134 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: maybe you don't live in the nation's capital, you might 135 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: be thinking that there are no white kids here, or 136 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: you might be thinking that white kids don't commit crime. 137 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: But neither one of those would be true. This is 138 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: a city with plenty of white children, and all kids 139 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: of all races are engaged in the same type of impulsive, reactive, 140 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: sensation seeking, risk taking types of behavior that we all 141 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: did when we were kids, right, And so white kids 142 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: commit crime. Yet I live in a city where virtually 143 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: all of my clients for twenty six years are African American. 144 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: So that's the most important pattern that I see. The 145 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: other pattern that I see is when I talk about 146 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: the arrest, prosecution, and detention of children across the country, 147 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 1: people automatically assume that I must be talking about serious, 148 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: violent offenses. But the reality is that the vast majority 149 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: of children are in our nation's juvenile courts for normal 150 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: adolescent behaviors, all of those things that we did when 151 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: we were kids, or that our own kids are doing right. 152 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: And so I often ask people, think about what did 153 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: you care about when you were a kid, What did 154 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: you care about as a teenager? And it's what the 155 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: clothes that you wore, the music that you listen to, 156 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: the parties that you got invited to, who you got 157 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: to sit within, the cafeteria, you know, the risky, you know, 158 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: activity you got to do. And if you take any 159 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: one of those threads right, you will see that black 160 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: children are criminalized for every aspect of adolescent behaviors, every 161 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: key feature of adolescent behavior. The music, you know, we 162 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: think about country, heavy metal, pop, rock music, all of 163 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: them have misogynistic themes, profan of the glorifying drugs, sex music, 164 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: and all of those genres exist without consequence. But yet 165 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: hip hop or rap music listened to by black children 166 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: is treated as if it's the most dangerous music alive. Right. 167 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: Black kids in a cafeteria hanging out together, dressing alike 168 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: are perceived as gangs instead of just friends like white kids. 169 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: So I could go on and on, but those are 170 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 1: the ways in which you see black children just criminalized 171 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: for being kids. So, Kristen, when I think about d C, 172 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 1: I think about a city that is predominantly black, right, 173 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: and so I would imagine that the police force is 174 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: also predominantly black. And so, you know, when you think 175 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: about like the nuances of culture and the things that 176 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: we know about, like how we show up in the 177 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: world that may be different from other communities, my assumption 178 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: would be that black people would understand, like black kids 179 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: sitting together and dragging together is just kind of maybe 180 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: a thing that we do. Yet you are still saying 181 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: that even with a majority black police force, there is 182 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: still this over criminalization of what is typical childhood behavior. 183 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: So can you help us make sense of what is 184 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: exactly happening there? Absolutely, you know, there are indeed plenty 185 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: of black officers in Washington, d C. And you still 186 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: see the same cultural phenomena of criminalization of normal adolescent behaviors. 187 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: And the reality is that we have all been complicit 188 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: in the narrative of fear that has been passed down 189 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: from generation to generation about black children, right, And that 190 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: narrative started in some very intentional ways as a means 191 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:48,719 Speaker 1: of controlling Black children, as a means of limiting opportunity 192 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: and resources for black children. So you have to when 193 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: we think about the Civil rights era and you're talking 194 00:12:55,240 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: about the possibility of integrating racially integrating schools, you've gotta 195 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: put forth a narrative that black children are dangerous, right, 196 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: that black children are sexually violent. So this is the 197 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: narrative that's intentionally put forth that then become so ingrained 198 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: in society that it becomes a part of the American 199 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: psyche as a subconscious reality that we have all bought into, 200 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: become complicit to without even realizing it. And that means 201 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: black folks, right. And so often when I talk about 202 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: the over policing and the hyper surveillance of black children, 203 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about by police officers in a 204 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: blue uniform, but by all of us. Right, So that 205 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: when we walk through a park and we see a 206 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: group of black kids, or we see one black child 207 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: in a hoodie, we're automatically afraid and we're thinking about 208 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: calling nine one one. That's because of the ways in 209 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: which racial bias has so permeated the narrative about black 210 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: children that we're all afraid of them. And so I 211 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: think that's a huge piece of why you see even 212 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: in a city where there have been you know, black 213 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: mayors and black police chiefs and black heads of the 214 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: local school system, that you still see this sort of 215 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: criminalization of black children. And the other thing I think 216 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: that's a part and parcel of that is the ways 217 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: in which we as a society, including in d C, 218 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: allocate resources. We have bought into this idea that the 219 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: only way to keep society safe is through policing. Right, 220 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: so we put all of our money and policing, more 221 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: money and policing than we do in counselors, more money 222 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: and policing than we do in teachers, right, more money 223 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: we do in policing than we do in mental health 224 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: services for young kids who have been traumatized by all 225 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: that's going on in society. There's so many factors that 226 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: play into how I can live in a city that 227 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: used to be at least anyway called the chocolate city 228 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: that's fading away with all the gentrification. But how you 229 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: can still have so much criminalization? So can you talk 230 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: a little bit more crescent about some of the practices 231 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: of policing that you feel like are especially discriminatory against 232 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: black children. Sure, you know, one of the practices that 233 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: we see across the country is the really the hyper 234 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: surveillance and aggressive stopping and frisking of black children. So 235 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: when you interview many black children in certain pockets of 236 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: our society, you hear that black children see police officers 237 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: multiple times a day often, right, certainly more than once 238 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: a month, more than once a week. Many kids see 239 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: police officers every day, and multiple times a day. Police 240 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: officers are often asking them where are you coming from? 241 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: Where are you going? They are asking young black children 242 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: to lift their shirts, right, And what the officers want 243 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: to do is they want to see whether or not 244 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: this black child is carrying a weapon in their waistband. 245 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: Black children are often stopped and frisks on very very 246 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: vague description. There might be a report of a robbery 247 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: for a black male wearing blue jeans, and you will 248 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: see a group of black males stopped and frisked as 249 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: a result of that very vague stop. So I think 250 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: so many of us in society take it for granted 251 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: that we can live in our own neighborhoods and walk 252 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: about our streets and go to school and not have 253 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: to encounter law enforcement. But that's just so not true 254 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: for so many black and brown children. So that's one 255 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: of the practices, the stopping and the frisking and the 256 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: hyper surveillance. Another practice is just police in schools. Right, 257 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: Like when I went to school, I was able to 258 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: walk in and out of the front door. Now so 259 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: many black children across the country walk into the front 260 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: door of school and they feel like they're entering a 261 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: space that's a prison, you know, have to walk through 262 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: metal detectors or watch throughout the day on surveillance cameras. 263 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: So it's often becomes a controversial tie. Think people want 264 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: to say, well, Chris, you know, we have to keep 265 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: kids safe. But the research shows us that the best 266 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: way to keep kids safe is through a public health 267 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: strategy for school safety, which we can talk about. It's 268 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: not about hyper surveillance. It's not about you know, making 269 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: the kids feel like they're in secured, attention when they 270 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: go to school. More from my conversation with Kristen after 271 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: the break, Chris, and I would like to hear about 272 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: this public health approach, and I also want to hear 273 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: why you think it is. And probably I'm guessing some 274 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: of it is this narrative that you've already talked about 275 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: that has kind of been forced on us for years, right, 276 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: and that many of us have bought into. But when 277 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: all of this research exists about how to actually keep 278 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: kids safe, why do you think that there is still 279 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: this over relying on the narrative that policing is the 280 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: only thing that can keep kids safe? And talk to 281 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 1: us more about that public health approach. Yeah, I mean 282 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: it's a great question. I think that the law enforcement 283 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 1: response is the politically expedient response. It's the quickest way 284 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 1: for politicians to get votes. Right, people are afraid. I 285 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: get it, like I. You know, I don't want to 286 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: be the victim of crime either. I have been the 287 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: victim of crime. I worried too, right, And so we 288 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: want an immediate response. What's the quickest response is to 289 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: have police officers show up and show up in their 290 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: blue uniforms and their weapons, and you feel safer. But 291 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: the research shows that actually that over policing actually increases 292 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: stress and anxiety among young people, which in turn leads 293 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 1: to delinquent behaviors, the very thing that we're seeking to avoid. 294 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: So people don't seem to realize. So I think part 295 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: of it is people don't do the research right. And 296 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: as part of the reason why I wrote the book 297 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: The Range of Innocence, How America Criminalizes Black Youth to 298 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: get folks to see some of this research in plain language, 299 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: everyday language, what really works. So I think that's part 300 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: of it. It's politically expedient. Folks aren't doing the research 301 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: and they want the quick answer, right, what is it 302 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: that works? What works requires time and investment and trial 303 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: and error, but proven best practices include a public health 304 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: approach to school safety and the community safety that is 305 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: deeply rooted in healthy relationships and mentoring between adults and children. 306 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: It's about trauma informed responses to all that our children 307 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: are dealing with today. In a pandemic world and a 308 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: world full of racial tension, and a world full of 309 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: political upheaval. These kids are watching it, so you gotta 310 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: have a trauma informed response. We also need a restorative 311 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: justice framework. A restorative framework is one that recognizes that 312 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: conflict exists and seeks to repair sort of a breach 313 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: in relationships, but even proactively seeks to teach empathy right, 314 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: social emotional learning as a part of the academic curriculum 315 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: for young people. Right. A public health approach to safety 316 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: is also one that is racially equitable, that recognizes that 317 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: adolescents are just children, right, and that we need to 318 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: have a racially equitable responses to adolescent normal misbehavior, right, 319 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: and so on an even more practical level. So those 320 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: are the sort of broad themes of a public health approach, 321 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: but it means in a very practical way, it means 322 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: a continuum of mental health services in the school and 323 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: in the community. It means vocational opportunity, smaller classes, that 324 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: social emotional learning that I talked about, It means mentoring. 325 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: It means even where there's real evidence of real crime 326 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: in the community, it's about having violence interrupters and credible 327 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: messengers go in and navigate those spaces to reunify and 328 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: restore communities. That's what it is proven. Those are the 329 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: kinds of strategies large that are proven to work. I'm 330 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: sure you saw this. I saw a clip I feel 331 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: like a couple of months ago, and I feel like 332 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: it was maybe your school in Texas, where like there's 333 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: a patrol of Dad's other people like they are the 334 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: incredible adults exactly, and the kids talk to you that 335 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: are in the school instead of policing, And so it 336 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: sounds like that's kind of what you're talking about. Absolutely, 337 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: I don't need to show up with a gun. I 338 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: don't need to show up with my handcuffs ready to 339 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: arrest you. I don't need to increase the anxiety associated 340 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: with police violence. And I say this all the time. 341 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: Police officers have to recognize that the blue uniform carries 342 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: with it the entire history of race relations in America. 343 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: So even if this one officer's officer friendly and means well, 344 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: he's got to recognize or she's got to recognize that 345 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: still it's a source of trauma. It's a source of 346 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: anxiety for young people. And instead, let's have a Dad 347 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: Right fund that instead give money to that or other 348 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: young people who have been down the wrong path but 349 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: got themselves together and can be role models. Have them 350 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: come in and navigate violence and reduce tension in the 351 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: school system. That's what works. So You've talked about this 352 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: a little bit, Christen, but I'd love to hear more 353 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 1: thoughts around. You mentioned how these like repeated interactions with 354 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: police can lead to things like stress and anxiety, and 355 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: can you say more about, like how these interactions also 356 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: impact just how young black people feel about themselves and 357 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: their mental health. Absolutely, there is a growing body of 358 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: research right there for the taking right, growing body of 359 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: research documenting the extraordinary psychological trauma that policing imposes on 360 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: black and brown children in one of the most important 361 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: stages of their development, those adolescent years. The research shows 362 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: that young Black and Latino youth who have been the 363 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,239 Speaker 1: target of significant stops and frisk or who live in 364 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: heavily surveilled neighborhoods, report high rates of fear, anxiety, depression. 365 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: They become hyper vigilant, which just means that they're always 366 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: on guard and they're not trusting police officers, and that 367 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: distrust for police officers transfers over to other adult authority figures, 368 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: right like teachers, counselor's principles, folks in the school system 369 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: or in the community. The research Also, what's so powerful 370 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: about the research is that it shows that young people 371 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: experience this trauma even when they are not the direct 372 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: target of police contact. Right, so even hearing about it 373 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: from free ends, family or someone that they're close to 374 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: can produce that same level of traumatic experience for them. 375 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: Or watching the killing of George Floyd on television, And 376 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: I say to folks all the time, remember where you 377 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: were when you watch that video, and think about how 378 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: painful it was for you it certainly was for me, 379 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: And then think about how much more painful it must 380 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,959 Speaker 1: be for a young black or brown child who realizes 381 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: this could happen to me. Right, How much more tragic 382 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: is that? And so it has an extraordinary impact on 383 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: the mental health and the well being of black children. 384 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: Including some of this research, the same body of research 385 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: has also looked at the ways in which policing impacts 386 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: identity development, and by that it's a fancy way of 387 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: just saying how it is that black children come to 388 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: see themselves who they are, who they can be, and 389 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: how they fit into the world. Right, And you know, 390 00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: young people who have negative or degrading experiences or deserve 391 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: negative integrading experiences by police began to sort of question 392 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: one the legitimacy of law and law enforcement. But they 393 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: also began to doubt who they are. Why is it 394 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: that we are so targeted and so straordinary impact on 395 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: the identity, the basic fundamental identity formation for black children. 396 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: More from my conversation with Kristen after the break. So 397 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: what is our path forward, Kristen? I mean, I know 398 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: you've covered a lot of this in the book, but 399 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: how do we begin to kind of write this, Like, 400 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: what are some of the steps that we can take 401 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: as parents, as educators, as school administrators to kind of 402 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: turn some of this around. Everyone has a role to play. 403 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 1: I always say that from whatever seat you said for 404 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: black parents, it's really this very delicate tight rope of 405 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: walking the law line on the one hand, of preparing 406 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: our children for those inevitable moments of discrimination they're going 407 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: to happen. So we prepare our children with the talk, 408 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: for example, like when you see a police officer, put 409 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: your hands up, don't make any sudden movements, say yes sir, no, sir, 410 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,719 Speaker 1: do whatever you can do to get home safe. So 411 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: we prepare them for that. We prepare them for the 412 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: possibility of discrimination in the convenience store and in the 413 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: school outs. But at the same time, we also have 414 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: to be careful about over preparing our children so that 415 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: they don't live and walk through life with anxiety, always fearing, 416 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: and also not over preparing them such that they begin 417 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: to plead that there are no allies who don't look 418 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: like us, right, because indeed, we live in a multicultural society, 419 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: and many of the opportunities in society are integrated opportunities, 420 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: and so our children have to be ready to be 421 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: luid right, sort of do some of that code switching. 422 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: And actually I want to be really careful about that, 423 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: right because I talk about empowering or teaching our kids 424 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: how to code switch from one environment to another, but 425 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: empowering them to make a choice about whether the code 426 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: switch or whether to be themselves, because code switching can 427 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: be traumatic if it's imposed right with like respectability politics, 428 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: like the only way to succeed in life is through 429 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: playing the game, playing the minstrel, and that's not what 430 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: we want for our kids either. But it's about teaching 431 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: kids about what the options are and what the opportunities 432 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: are what they might confront. So I think that's a 433 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: piece of it for black parents. I think the other 434 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: piece for black parents is creating space for these conversations. 435 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: What is it? You know, we as parents have learned, 436 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: you know, as adults how to navigate the society with 437 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: our own sort of coping mechanisms, our own strategies. But 438 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: it's about asking kids, you know, how to feel at school? 439 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: How do they feel walking in the front door George 440 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: Floyd happens. Let's sit down and let's go for a 441 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: walk and talk about you know, how did you feel 442 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: when you saw George Floyd? Or are people at school 443 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: talking about George Floyd? And how does that make you feel? 444 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: So we've got to create space for our kids, you know, 445 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: to have these conversations and then you know, what do 446 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: other people do? What else can we do? I think, 447 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: you know, we as a community, we've got to get 448 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: out front on these issues, right and that means we've 449 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: got to understand what's happening for example, in local politics, 450 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: local elections, right, who's running for the local prosecutor's office, Right, 451 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: who's running for that elected judge position in juvenile court? 452 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: Being attentive to some of that. It's also about figuring 453 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: out ways in which we as a community can be 454 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: clear and lobby for a radical reduction and the footprint 455 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: of police in the lives of black children. And so 456 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: that means, how do we join school board meetings and 457 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: advocate for police free schools? And that's not as radical 458 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: as it sounds, actually, right, it's not saying that we 459 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: won't have police in those circumstances where we really need them. 460 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: You know, police officers are located in the community, they 461 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: can get there fast. Right. Evidence has shown that policing 462 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: doesn't prevent crime. It's reactive. It responds to crime. So 463 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: we need to put in place. We need to be 464 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: lobbying for dollars in the school system to reallocate dollars 465 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: from heavy policing into all those public health strategies that 466 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: we talked about. So those are some of the things 467 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: we need to be funding parks and recreation. People don't 468 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: think about that. That's a huge think about, Tamire Rice, right, 469 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: Like funding a park and recreations system that allows kids 470 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: to be kids and that allows kids to play. So 471 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: there's so many things that we could be advocating for. 472 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: You got to educate yourselves and then get out front 473 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: and be a voice and partner with young people here 474 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: from them, what is it that's bothering you at school, 475 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: and they have great ideas what can be changed at school, 476 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: what do you need at school, and then go out 477 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: front and lobby for that. It also feels like there 478 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: are some special things that maybe educators and maybe mental 479 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: health professionals need to know about how to actually be 480 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: good resources. You know, when you think about who are 481 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: the people in your schools who you think about to 482 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: help you think like the teachers and the counselors. So 483 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: what kinds of things to teachers and mental health professionals 484 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: need to know or maybe get involved with to also 485 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: cut down on some of this. Yeah, I think one 486 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: of the things for mental health professionals, and I really honestly, 487 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: in writing the book The Rage of Innocence, I began 488 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: to learn from psychologists developmental psychologists about what kids need. 489 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: And I think we are getting better about recognizing the 490 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: importance of talking about mental health service is and dealing 491 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: with trauma for young people. But we still have not 492 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: gotten to a place where we understand that policing is 493 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: in some ways a source of trauma, and so that 494 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: needs to become a part of the continuum of resources 495 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: that are being provided by mental health professionals. Also racial trauma. 496 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: Right that our children are experiencing moments and encounters with 497 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 1: discrimination in their school, at work, at recreation, in healthcare, 498 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: every aspect of their lives, and so we need to 499 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: be attentive to providing that level of mental health services 500 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: within the mental health framework. We also need more mental 501 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: health providers, psychologist, therapist, counselors who look like us and 502 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: who have lived experiences like the children that we're talking about. 503 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: So I think that's one, you know, real call to action. 504 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: And I think for teachers, it's creating space in your 505 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: classrooms or in after school activities, or in leadership spaces, 506 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: right like creating leadership and advocacy opportunities for students to 507 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: talk about reform. And so people often ask me this question, 508 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: like what do we need to be doing. One of 509 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: the things I say, if you want to make the 510 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: world a better place for black children, ask them, right, So, 511 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: getting them to the table, And I think it's a 512 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: wonderful learning opportunity, whether you teach writing skills, empowering black 513 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: kids with an opportunity to learn writing by writing about 514 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: what they want changed, what advocacy agenda do they want 515 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: to put forth, is a wonderful thing to write about. Right. 516 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: So classes are about public speaking, thinking about how to 517 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: give kids an opportunity to do public speaking around reform 518 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: and around advocacy. I think that's true for all the classes, right, 519 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: even in math class, thinking about great black mathematicians, great 520 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: black scientists as a part of that core learning. Right. 521 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: And what the research has shown is that sort of 522 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:11,239 Speaker 1: black history, black pride, black achievement becomes a buffer in 523 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: a lot of ways to all of the negative labeling 524 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,719 Speaker 1: that is being done or put upon Black children. So 525 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: in every space a teacher should be open to engage 526 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: around black history. And then I think the final piece 527 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: of advice and I my heart goes out to teachers 528 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: who are under resourced, right, And so teachers often default 529 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: themselves to traditional law enforcement responses. Kid acts up in class, 530 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: they call the front office, and who does the front office? 531 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: And they send the school resource officer down. And so 532 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: I think teachers as a community continue to get educated 533 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: around what works, public health strategies that work, and go 534 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: to their school boards, to their school administrators and lobby 535 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: for what works and be willing right to go through 536 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: some trial and error. While we reduce the number of 537 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: police in schools, I think is really important. And then 538 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: one other thing for teachers is remembering what it was 539 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 1: like to be a kid. Again, my heart goes out 540 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: to teachers, and it's easy to get jaded when your 541 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: class is too big and kids are being kids. But 542 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: you got to remember that our racial biases calls us 543 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: to perceive normal adolescent acting out as aggressive, as violent, 544 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: as threatening, and more threatening than it actually is. Adolescent 545 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: aggressive speech is often just that. Remember when you threw 546 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 1: a tantrum, Remember when you said I hate you mom, 547 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: Remember when you refused to do what you were supposed 548 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: to do because you were having a really, really really 549 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: bad day or really bad traumatic experience at home. So 550 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: it's hard for teachers. We need to give them support 551 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: and resources. But teachers also have to remember that black 552 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: kids are black kids. It's too Even with the mental 553 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: health system, I think you're right in terms of like 554 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: the expansion of therapists and you know, services, but I 555 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: think it's also important to think about like how mental 556 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 1: health has often been tied to policing. Right, So when 557 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: we notice that a client needs a higher level of care, 558 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: that often involved like a police escort to a hospital. Right, 559 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,439 Speaker 1: And so can you talk about any models that you've 560 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,399 Speaker 1: seen for like more community mental health kinds of things 561 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: where police are not actually involved if someone does need 562 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: a higher level of care. Yeah, so you know, we're 563 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: still collecting some of that, but some of the examples 564 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 1: that we have seen is a program, for example, out 565 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: in Oregon Portland's called COOTS c A h o O 566 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 1: T S. And the idea is that you call nine 567 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: one one for services, but that nine one one caller 568 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: does triage, or you can call another number four one 569 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,839 Speaker 1: one if you know that this shouldn't involve police. And 570 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: so the idea here is if someone is in a 571 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: drug crisis or a mental health crisis, those are those 572 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: responses that require medical intervention and not police intervention. And 573 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: so it's having some intermediary that is triaging calls and 574 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: sending out the right resource. So you would send out 575 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: a mobile mental health or crisis intervention van to that 576 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: location instead of police to that location. So that's an 577 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: example out of Portland's. A number of schools are also 578 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: doing crisis mobile mental health services so that when a 579 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: child is in crisis, the mental health van comes and 580 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: again they don't have to be dressed, you know, with 581 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: the big label mental health services or you know, you know, 582 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: you come in and you come in in your casual 583 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: clothes and you de escalate. Those de escalation strategies are 584 00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: really really important. Another thing that we are seeing is 585 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: less a program but training. There are some, but not 586 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: nearly enough, very small percentage of police departments who are 587 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: getting de escalation training in adolescent development. That's really important. 588 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 1: We need to see more of that. There's an organization 589 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: called Strategies for Youth that has offered and developed a 590 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: policing the teen Brain Curriculum. That is important. So those 591 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: are some ideas, but you know, we need more and 592 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: more of that. So you talked already a little bit 593 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: about the book, Kristen, so I would love to hear 594 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: one what was the inspiration for the title of the book, 595 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: The Rage of Innocence. When I think about the rage 596 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: of innocence, I am on a global level thinking about 597 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: the rage that every single one of us should have 598 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: any time any one child is deprived of an opportunity 599 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: to be a child, Right, that's the rage of innocence. 600 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: At the same time, it also has more subtle, nuanced meetings. 601 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: So the rage is also the rage that black children 602 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: have when they are told over and over again that 603 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: they are criminal, that they are dangerous, that they are 604 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: a threat. And I say all the time that anybody, 605 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: any self respecting person with an ounce of dignity and 606 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 1: self worth, should resist those labels. Right, So they naturally 607 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: push back on those labels and their teenagers right, And 608 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: we've already talked about what teenagers are. Impulsive, emotional, reactive, 609 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: their fairness fanatics. They're not likely to say, you know, 610 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: Mr officer, I don't like the way you're treating me today. Instead, 611 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: they talk like teenagers, and they sound loud, and they 612 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: sound aggressive. That's what they do, right, And so that's 613 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: the rage, and that's the rage that we are working on. 614 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: So what do you want readers to walk away with 615 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: after reading Rage of Innocence? I want, more than anything, 616 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: I want readers to see themselves in the stories that 617 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: I tell. So in the Rage of Innocence, I pulled 618 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 1: together stories about my own clients that I've represented in Washington, 619 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: d C. The ways in which they've been criminalized, traumatized, dehumanized, 620 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: treated as if they are beyond redemption even when they 621 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: do make a mistake. And I marry those stories with 622 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: other high profile stories, many of which you all have 623 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: heard about, stories about Tamir Rice and Mike Brown and 624 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: Jeremiah Harvey. But I weave those stories together with the 625 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: data and the research, research that is plain language, accessible 626 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: to everyone, that helps us understand why this phenomena is happening, 627 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: what we can do to address the phenomena. And so 628 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: I want folks to walk away seeing themselves in these stories, 629 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: seeing themselves when they were children, seeing their kids in 630 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: these stories, and remembering that children are children too. That's 631 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: a critical piece of shifting their narrative. I want people 632 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: to walk away with a call to action, and there 633 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: are multiple calls to action. I titled chapter twelve of 634 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: the book is Black Boy, Joy and Black Girl Magic, 635 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: and it's all about the ways in which we can 636 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: foster resilience in black children who have been, you know, 637 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: criminalized and demonized in so many of these ways. And 638 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,280 Speaker 1: I offer up suggestions for teachers and parents, and police 639 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: and city lawmakers, mental health providers, churches, right, everybody has 640 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,760 Speaker 1: a role to play in shifting that narrative and reducing 641 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: the footprint of police in the lives of black and 642 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: brown children. Love and thank you so much for that Kristen, So, 643 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: where can we stay connected with you? What is your 644 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: website as well as any social media handles you'd like 645 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: to share, So I can be found at Rage of 646 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: Innocence dot Com will link you to the book, re 647 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 1: link you to any speaking opportunities, and links you back 648 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: to Georgetown. And you can always google Georgetown Juvenile Justice 649 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: Clinic Kristen Henning and pull up our racial Justice portfolio. 650 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: You can see all of the work that we're doing 651 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: in the legal space. I am on Twitter and I 652 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: g at Professor Chris Henning also on Facebook, also as 653 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: prof Chris Henning, so I'm easy to find. I'm only 654 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: a Google away. You can get my book, The Rage 655 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,799 Speaker 1: of Innocence everywhere. Books are sold independent bookstores as well 656 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: as Amazon dot com. So reach out and look forward 657 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,720 Speaker 1: to hearing from you and engaging more with your community. 658 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:40,720 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Christen will be sure to include 659 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,560 Speaker 1: all of that in the show notes. Thank you Fristman 660 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: in some time with us today. Thank you so much 661 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: for having me and for having this podcast and these conversations. 662 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: You're welcome. I'm so glad Christen was able to share 663 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: her expertise with us today. To learn more about her 664 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: and her work. Be sure to visit the show notes 665 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to 666 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: eighty and don't forget to text two of your girls 667 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,000 Speaker 1: and tell them to check out the episode right now. 668 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,359 Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check 669 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot 670 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,280 Speaker 1: com slash directory. And if you want to continue digetting 671 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: into this topic or just be in community with other sisters, 672 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: come on over and join us in this sister circle. 673 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for 674 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy 675 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com. This episode was produced by 676 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 1: Freda Lucas and Alice Ellis and editing was done by 677 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all so much for joining 678 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continue in 679 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.