Speaker 1: Really, the department can't solve for diversity, equity, inclusion that
Speaker 1: actually happens on the ground with the people you interact
Speaker 1: with every single day, whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client,
Speaker 1: and we're trying to determine how do you bring that
Speaker 1: more and not just say here's a couple of programs
Speaker 1: that will solve for this, because.
Speaker 2: Your programs aren't going to solve for it.
Speaker 1: So how does the culture and the environment really become
Speaker 1: more inclusive to do that on its.
Speaker 3: Own As companies navigate the shifting landscape of federal diversity policies,
Speaker 3: our conversation with PWC's Chief Purpose and Inclusion Officer, Shannon
Speaker 3: Schuyler couldn't be more relevant. Although it was recorded before
Speaker 3: President Trump's executive order ending federal diversity programs. Shannon brings
Speaker 3: three decades of global corporate insight from her more than
Speaker 3: fifteen roles at PwC. Her journey illustrates how invest in
Speaker 3: talent shapes both individual careers and organizational culture. Shannon examines
Speaker 3: how companies can build authentic diversity initiatives that prioritize people
Speaker 3: over statistics and recognize the human experiences shaping their employees' lives.
Speaker 3: I'm furnished to RAVI and this is leading by example,
Speaker 3: executives making an impact. Shannon Schuyler, Welcome to leading by example.
Speaker 3: It's really nice to have you with us. It is
Speaker 3: such pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 3: So you are what my mother would say, a people person,
Speaker 3: And I wonder how it all started for you. Were
Speaker 3: you that child who was engaging and empathetic and love
Speaker 3: to lead. Take me back to a story that perhaps
Speaker 3: captures the Shannon Schalar that you have now become.
Speaker 1: Oh that is so funny, because I am not a
Speaker 1: people person. I am a true introvert. It's very challenging
Speaker 1: for me to be in large groups of folks that
Speaker 1: I don't know. But I think I grew up being
Speaker 1: very intuitive of how people felt and being empathetic. And
Speaker 1: I'm always the person. I think even as a child,
Speaker 1: and you go back, it's the underdog. It's the kid
Speaker 1: who's being picked on on the playground. It's the person
Speaker 1: who is being judged by others or bullied. And I've
Speaker 1: always been the person that has to run to their defense,
Speaker 1: even if sometimes, especially as a child, it was not
Speaker 1: necessarily welcome. I was like trying to help people who
Speaker 1: just don't have a voice. And I think that's really
Speaker 1: what has propelled me to doing the things that I
Speaker 1: do now.
Speaker 3: Is it really what you would say, what carried you through,
Speaker 3: what you studied in school and how you pursued your career.
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 1: I grew up with a very matriarchri family and women
Speaker 1: who were there helping other women and helping people, whether
Speaker 1: it was in nonprofits, whether it was on the farm,
Speaker 1: whether it was through local politics, but it was really
Speaker 1: trying to uplift people and give people a voice or
Speaker 1: hand or help or support who didn't otherwise have it.
Speaker 1: And I think that has just become my mantra of
Speaker 1: where I am now and what I do.
Speaker 3: The empathy piece is so important, and I think we
Speaker 3: sometimes take it for granted. There is now a body
Speaker 3: of research. Scientists are studying empathy and kindness as it
Speaker 3: pertains to things like ROI and leadership. And I'm just
Speaker 3: curious how you think you developed your empathy. We say
Speaker 3: empathy can be contagious. Where do you find the sources
Speaker 3: of your empathy? That's such a great question, and I
Speaker 3: don't know if I've ever thought about it that way.
Speaker 3: I think I come from a very sensitive family for
Speaker 3: people who are okay with being vulnerable and having the
Speaker 3: hard conversations.
Speaker 2: I've been with PwC for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1: One of our values when I started was put yourself
Speaker 1: in someone else's shoes, and I think that that had
Speaker 1: always helped to drive me to say, all right, that's
Speaker 1: how I think. But how is somebody else perceiving that
Speaker 1: their background, where they've come from, the values that they have.
Speaker 1: Why would they look at that differently? And how do
Speaker 1: I make sure that we're on the same wavelength when
Speaker 1: we have the conversations.
Speaker 3: Shannon, you wrote about these playing cards that you used
Speaker 3: to keep in your wallet for queens specifically, and how
Speaker 3: each card represented a woman you admired in your life.
Speaker 3: Tell me about these women who were they had they
Speaker 3: shape your journey? Well, it's interesting because I had never
Speaker 3: planned on doing that. I had, over the course of
Speaker 3: years subconsciously taking these cards out and had put them
Speaker 3: in my wallet and started carrying them around. And suddenly
Speaker 3: when I became the firm's chief purpose officer, I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my goodness, someone's going to say, what's your purpose?
Speaker 1: And I'm going to be like, I don't have one.
Speaker 1: I'm in my forties. I don't know, I've kind of
Speaker 1: gotten here. It's really been this is the firm's purpose,
Speaker 1: And so I really took time to figure it out,
Speaker 1: and I tried to do all the things that people do,
Speaker 1: a little bit of retail therapy, a little bit of reading,
Speaker 1: and I took a college course and my forties saying,
Speaker 1: can I figure out what my purpose is? And randomly,
Speaker 1: when I was changing verses one day and I was
Speaker 1: changing my wallet to match my purse, I had these
Speaker 1: plane cards fall out that are tattered and to the
Speaker 1: state even more tattered.
Speaker 2: And they are four queens.
Speaker 1: And when a woman would pass away in my family
Speaker 1: for some random reason, I would take a card and
Speaker 1: I would put it in my wallet. And we had,
Speaker 1: over the course of really a handful of years, my mother,
Speaker 1: my aunt, my two grandmothers passed away who always sat
Speaker 1: at the head of the table, and suddenly they were gone.
Speaker 1: And I realized then that I was trying to live
Speaker 1: for them, so that their voice and what they could
Speaker 1: have accomplished. My mother was the first state and local
Speaker 1: lobbyist of a bank in Cleveland. These were women who
Speaker 1: had so much to give and they didn't get a
Speaker 1: chance to give it, and that became why I'd made
Speaker 1: the choices of my life, was to give them a voice,
Speaker 1: to give other women a voice who can't and who
Speaker 1: are not in the position to do so, whether they
Speaker 1: are just not given the opportunity, or in my case,
Speaker 1: whether they had passed away way too early.
Speaker 3: But my gosh, your mother was such a trailblazer. She
Speaker 3: was even in her time, and a really good little golfer.
Speaker 3: She was five four and mighty golf too. I know
Speaker 3: exactly she was like she I know, and you know
Speaker 3: she would be looking down saying.
Speaker 2: Why are you playing golf?
Speaker 4: Mike?
Speaker 3: I know, all right. Shifting gears from golf to your
Speaker 3: time at PwC, which is now spanning thirty years, Shannon,
Speaker 3: that is just remarkable. I mean, it just feels rare
Speaker 3: for anyone to stay longer than five years in one role.
Speaker 3: So what's kept you interested in staying? Honestly? Did you
Speaker 3: always see yourself at one company for your career? Well?
Speaker 1: No, I mean I had thought of my career when
Speaker 1: I graduated from college that I was going to go
Speaker 1: into sports broadcasting. Unfortunately I was way too early for
Speaker 1: now that women are allowed on the sideline. But back
Speaker 1: then that's what I had wanted to do, and I
Speaker 1: kind of ended up in petewc in this role. And
Speaker 1: like many people, I think, you go in and you're like,
Speaker 1: I'm here for three to five years and I'll jump
Speaker 1: to something else. But being in an organization that allows
Speaker 1: you to go through so many different paths. I've been
Speaker 1: in a handful of different offices. I've had probably seventeen
Speaker 1: different jobs.
Speaker 2: I started in.
Speaker 1: Recruiting and then went to human resources, then to marketing
Speaker 1: and sales, and then corporate social responsibility, and then sustainability
Speaker 1: and then purpose and so you could really reimagine as
Speaker 1: I grew as a person. I was able to grow there,
Speaker 1: and the people really allowed me to do that, to
Speaker 1: create that type of platform, and so incredibly lucky. You
Speaker 1: never thought I would do it. I am amazed by
Speaker 1: the stats now that folks who are thirty five have
Speaker 1: had seven or eight jobs by the time they're there,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to catch
Speaker 1: up now in my later years. But that's what really
Speaker 1: kept me here. It's the people and the opportunities. Seventeen roles.
Speaker 3: Was there one that was what you would call like
Speaker 3: good Hard, where it was really challenging, a real learning curve,
Speaker 3: but ended up being sort of that one experience that
Speaker 3: opened your eyes to the path that you're on now.
Speaker 1: I think each role has created its own challenges. I
Speaker 1: happen to be somebody who really seeks out problems to solve,
Speaker 1: which can be really complex but really exciting. I think
Speaker 1: some of the things I've gotten the most out of
Speaker 1: is the organization has allowed me to create the.
Speaker 2: First of jobs.
Speaker 1: Like we never had a great place to work leader,
Speaker 1: we never had a corporate responsibility leader, we never had
Speaker 1: a foundation, we never had a purpose leader. And so
Speaker 1: in some of those cases, just finding what I thought
Speaker 1: could help the organization and help our people and help society,
Speaker 1: wrote a couple of white papers and was lucky enough
Speaker 1: to have the CEOs at the time asked me to
Speaker 1: do it. And so I think that really all of
Speaker 1: those were challenging when you're the first one to do it. Now,
Speaker 1: sometimes I say, the first one to do it is
Speaker 1: pretty easy because no one can tell you you're doing
Speaker 1: it wrong. But it's also hard to kind of create
Speaker 1: what that value is to make sure that it can
Speaker 1: be sustainable.
Speaker 3: I mean, I really in understanding your background, and now
Speaker 3: that you've explained, having these first of roles and the
Speaker 3: build to really launch important roles, it's an entrepreneurial spirit
Speaker 3: that either you had or was cultivated throughout these thirty years.
Speaker 3: Would you agree?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: I agree, And I think it's also that thirst for
Speaker 1: learning and to want to continue to grow, like to
Speaker 1: want to understand something that you don't know a lot about.
Speaker 1: When we started our commitments around especially climate, I knew
Speaker 1: nothing about that. That wasn't my background, but I was
Speaker 1: so interested in learning and growing and saying what would
Speaker 1: this mean for our organization, our people, our clients, the community.
Speaker 1: And I think having that just lean in to know
Speaker 1: more was really what got me to continue to do
Speaker 1: a lot of different things and want to test out
Speaker 1: whether or not this would work or not.
Speaker 3: I want to go back to what you said about
Speaker 3: people who are in their thirties and they've had on
Speaker 3: average seven to eight different jobs. Why do you think
Speaker 3: that is there is a rarity when it comes to
Speaker 3: staying power in a role at a company. Why do
Speaker 3: you think there's so much movement.
Speaker 1: I think there's so many different reasons for the movement.
Speaker 1: I think one is people want flexibility, and I think
Speaker 1: over the course of the years and now might be
Speaker 1: a little bit different since COVID. You want flexibility in
Speaker 1: your role and you're kind of searching for what that
Speaker 1: could be and what it is. I think as you age,
Speaker 1: you begin to want different things out of life, and
Speaker 1: sometimes those organizations may or may not be able to
Speaker 1: give that to you. I think sometimes you want to
Speaker 1: try something different and you can't do it within your organization.
Speaker 1: And I think it's good to try different things. I
Speaker 1: think it's exciting to know your worth and to be
Speaker 1: able to go someplace else, and so I definitely am
Speaker 1: jealous that individuals do that and don't find anything wrong
Speaker 1: with it, but rather it really I think today's individuals
Speaker 1: want that experience and want different experiences and to be inspired,
Speaker 1: and they just go to different places to get that done.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's shift gears a little bit to talking about diversity,
Speaker 3: equity and Inclusion DEI, which is central to your work
Speaker 3: and your passion. It's no surprise that you know this.
Speaker 3: The diversity equity and inclusion backlash has set in. We've
Speaker 3: seen slash budgets, we've seen reduced D and I leadership.
Speaker 3: Do you think that this movement is rooted in any truth.
Speaker 3: And if you are running public relations for D and I,
Speaker 3: what is the message you think that is lost on
Speaker 3: some of the leadership right now and what is missing
Speaker 3: and it's important to share. It's such a great question,
Speaker 3: and it's interesting to sit back and to watch what's happening.
Speaker 3: And I think, first of all, whether it is DEI,
Speaker 3: whether it is ESG, I mean, pick it, we definitely
Speaker 3: have backlash, and it's because people.
Speaker 2: Think it means different things.
Speaker 1: DEI at the core of it, was always trying to
Speaker 1: make sure that people had an opportunity to have equitable
Speaker 1: experiences and to make sure that the human condition and
Speaker 1: the variety of backgrounds that people have, that as they
Speaker 1: come into organizations, they're allowed to be able to share
Speaker 1: that and not have that be something that is a
Speaker 1: negative or a takeaway. I think over the course of
Speaker 1: the years we've changed that, and we've changed that into
Speaker 1: meaning that numbers need to be certain numbers, and we
Speaker 1: need to look at the individuals or organizations or race
Speaker 1: or religion or what it is that's the worst off
Speaker 1: and only focus on this. And I think we've become
Speaker 1: smaller and smaller and smaller with how we look at diversity, equity,
Speaker 1: and inclusion. I think the hardest part and the most
Speaker 1: important part is the equity part. It's really saying we
Speaker 1: want people to have an equitable opportunity to be successful
Speaker 1: and to be able to move through an organization. It's
Speaker 1: not about the number in the box. It's about creating
Speaker 1: the culture that allows for people to be treated in
Speaker 1: a way that reflects the importance of who they are
Speaker 1: and the differences that they have. I think, unfortunately we're
Speaker 1: seeing a pendulum swing. I think after the murder of
Speaker 1: George Floyd, with great intent, people looked at where they
Speaker 1: are within their organizations. Some it based on data, others
Speaker 1: just doing it based upon concern and jumped in and
Speaker 1: put goals out there. And I think it was trying
Speaker 1: to do the right thing, but not really knowing how
Speaker 1: people were going to get there and what was the
Speaker 1: right way to do it and what they would look like.
Speaker 1: And I think it was the same thing when people
Speaker 1: made their net zero goals, saying we're going to be
Speaker 1: net zero in ten years. Nobody knew how to do it,
Speaker 1: but you put it out there. I hope that now
Speaker 1: is a time to reflect to say were those right,
Speaker 1: because if they are, then you can continue them. If
Speaker 1: they weren't and they were an overreach, then you should
Speaker 1: look back. I also hope that now companies realize that
Speaker 1: they should be looking as we always should have, at
Speaker 1: the socioeconomic implications that are out there. This is about
Speaker 1: helping the individuals, helping the groups, helping the communities that
Speaker 1: truly need the help, not because an individual box was checked.
Speaker 1: We need to make sure that we're looking at broadly
Speaker 1: who's disadvantaged, and how to make sure that we have
Speaker 1: everyone come to the table. And I worry that the
Speaker 1: pendulum swum so hard and again with really wonderful people
Speaker 1: at tempting to make change and get to a tipping
Speaker 1: point when they saw the opportunity to now saying now
Speaker 1: we don't need it at all. And I hope that
Speaker 1: we can get to that middle ground.
Speaker 3: In some cases there might need to be some reconciliation.
Speaker 3: I'm hearing that you see it as sort of like
Speaker 3: an over not overreach, but overcorrected. So for those leaders
Speaker 3: who feel like we swung too far on the pendulum,
Speaker 3: how would you recommend finding a center and reconciling What
Speaker 3: are the questions they should be asking, as opposed to
Speaker 3: jumping to the conclusion of we need to slash budgets
Speaker 3: and eliminate our entire initiative around DEI.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's really important to say what are
Speaker 1: we solving for Over the course of five years within
Speaker 1: our industry, PwC was the first to actually release all
Speaker 1: of our diversity data because you have to actually show
Speaker 1: where you are. I mean, a lot of people are
Speaker 1: making these goals and making the decision to do something
Speaker 1: or not with no data to say what they should
Speaker 1: be doing and what they shouldn't be doing. So I
Speaker 1: think it's saying, let's step, let's look and say what
Speaker 1: really is right or wrong to make sure that we're
Speaker 1: making the right steps that are there. I also think
Speaker 1: that it's really important that you look at what these
Speaker 1: things mean both to your people as well as to
Speaker 1: your clients or your customers and your other stakeholders. I
Speaker 1: think when people were originally making a lot of their
Speaker 1: goals several years ago.
Speaker 2: They didn't look at that. They looked at one issue.
Speaker 1: They looked at something horrible was happening, and how do
Speaker 1: we respond to it? Instead of saying, who are all
Speaker 1: the stakeholders that are in this and what will they think?
Speaker 1: And how do we make sure that what we're putting
Speaker 1: out there really helps to elevate everyone?
Speaker 2: And we have a narrative for why.
Speaker 1: We're doing it, and I think it's really important that
Speaker 1: we get.
Speaker 3: There finding the through line is what I'm hearing. And
Speaker 3: in your role, you are working with people across a
Speaker 3: spectrum of cultures of lived experiences. How do you connect
Speaker 3: with your teams and your people? What are the tools
Speaker 3: that you use, Shannon, are their tricks that you have
Speaker 3: or you know, just a methodology that you implement.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's about putting all the pieces together.
Speaker 1: So going forward, we're now uniting human resources and our
Speaker 1: diversity efforts to really say, let's make sure that the
Speaker 1: people experience overall is one that can uplift everyone understanding
Speaker 1: that there's different things happening one way or another. I
Speaker 1: think one of the huge things that we have at
Speaker 1: the firm is we've grown to over forty percent of
Speaker 1: our people are a part of inclusion networks that allows
Speaker 1: individuals to really understand culturally and based upon their demographic
Speaker 1: what's happening, but also allows for allies. We've had over
Speaker 1: five thousand allies during those groups over the course the
Speaker 1: last couple of years, because people want to know and
Speaker 1: people want to understand, and so it's less about the programs.
Speaker 1: I mean, you have to have things around the edges,
Speaker 1: but more about every day, every day, how are people
Speaker 1: getting opertunities, how are people working together? How are you
Speaker 1: building in that engagement Because you can't just do this
Speaker 1: within the department that you were talking about. The department
Speaker 1: can't solve for diversity, equity inclusion that actually happens on
Speaker 1: the ground with the people you interact with every single day,
Speaker 1: whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client, And we're trying
Speaker 1: to determine how do you bring that more and not
Speaker 1: just say here's a couple of programs that will solve
Speaker 1: for this, because your programs aren't going to solve for it.
Speaker 1: So how does the culture and the environment really become
Speaker 1: more inclusive to do that on its own? What do
Speaker 1: you think are some of the limitations? Or I should say,
Speaker 1: how far should your employer go to address and meet
Speaker 1: you where you're at on a personal level? Right if
Speaker 1: you're dealing with whether it's financial struggles, you're dealing with
Speaker 1: microaggressions at work and outside of work if you're dealing with.
Speaker 3: Mental health issues. Life is hard on so many skills.
Speaker 3: You're a caregiver for your parents, for your children, and
Speaker 3: we bring all of that to work. And what do
Speaker 3: you see as kind of like the guidelines around that,
Speaker 3: because your employer is not your therapist, but there still
Speaker 3: needs to be a level of understanding and empathy.
Speaker 1: It's such a great question, and my feeling is arguably
Speaker 1: you spend more time at work, depending upon your job,
Speaker 1: than you do anywhere else. So the thought that you
Speaker 1: should come to work and not deal with any of
Speaker 1: those issues and just sit down and do your things
Speaker 1: and leave is just not feasible.
Speaker 2: That's just not going to happen.
Speaker 1: Nowadays, during the workday, you could get a call from
Speaker 1: somebody to your point, you could deal with mental health issues,
Speaker 1: So that your employer has to have resources to be
Speaker 1: able to give you outlets to deal with those types
Speaker 1: of issues, and I think.
Speaker 2: That that's really important.
Speaker 1: The lines have blurred so much in hybrid even has
Speaker 1: had those lines blur even more so where you're doing
Speaker 1: so much of your personal alongside your work and your
Speaker 1: work alongside your personal. So I think organizations do you
Speaker 1: have to have outlets to support issues around mental health.
Speaker 1: I think they do have to have things that help
Speaker 1: you around childcare and caregiving and emergency childcare backup. I
Speaker 1: think your employers do have to have resources to help
Speaker 1: you in financial planning and help you to repay your
Speaker 1: college loans. You have to be able to deal with
Speaker 1: that in order to function at the level that I
Speaker 1: think a lot of companies certainly want you to be
Speaker 1: able to function.
Speaker 3: That. Yeah, investing in your workforce means investing not just
Speaker 3: in their professional wellbeing, but also their personal wellbeing, their
Speaker 3: financial wellbeing. I so appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I think the one thing that companies are realizing though,
Speaker 1: and I think again this is another one of those
Speaker 1: pendulum swinging is that you don't have to answer every
Speaker 1: single thing that every single employee has a challenge on.
Speaker 1: And I think as we've seen in the last several years,
Speaker 1: there's so many social issues, there's climate issues, there's all
Speaker 1: these different issues that have become especially so politicized, and
Speaker 1: for a while, I think companies thought, I'm going to
Speaker 1: have to weigh in on everything, and that's too much.
Speaker 1: That kind of waters down the ability to actually say
Speaker 1: when there's something that matters Okay, now we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about it because it's something as an organization we
Speaker 1: can actually help to influence. And I think that's one
Speaker 1: that is going to be really interesting for employees when
Speaker 1: they had for a little bit their leaders commenting on everything,
Speaker 1: and now I think you have a lot of leaders
Speaker 1: that are saying, let's really decide what we're going to
Speaker 1: what are the things we really are because we think
Speaker 1: we actually can help to solve for them versus anything
Speaker 1: happens we have to weigh in. Coming up after the break,
Speaker 1: Shannon and I talk about the decision to take PWC's
Speaker 1: DEI data, public executive accountability and the skills that will
Speaker 1: equip leaders for the future. That's why you have to
Speaker 1: get into that shared accountability space. That's really important because
Speaker 1: that's the culture change. Not just one person is accountable,
Speaker 1: but collectively you see the importance of being accountable.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back back.
Speaker 3: How would you describe your leadership style, Shannon, and how
Speaker 3: has it changed or evolved throughout your career.
Speaker 2: I've always liked to be a problem solver.
Speaker 1: In an organization that's been around for over one hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy years, there's a lot of things that we
Speaker 1: can do the same, but just think of all the
Speaker 1: things that we could learn from and really try to
Speaker 1: do differently. And so really like to push the envelope
Speaker 1: and to push the team to think outside of the box.
Speaker 1: Certainly like to be very collaborative, like to hear views,
Speaker 1: like to hear people try to throw something random at
Speaker 1: the wall, But at the end of the day, really
Speaker 1: like to make decisions relatively quickly and to move on.
Speaker 1: I think it's really important, especially when you're in a
Speaker 1: support function, that you realize the importance and the role
Speaker 1: that you play, and you have to make sure to
Speaker 1: hold yourself to the same scrutiny that you would if
Speaker 1: you were in the client facing and you were selling
Speaker 1: a product. If it doesn't work, you got to look
Speaker 1: at it and you can decide I'm not doing it
Speaker 1: anymore and you got to go to something else. I
Speaker 1: think you have to do the same thing within areas
Speaker 1: in support of if it doesn't work, let's move on,
Speaker 1: Like you can't get wetted to something. And so it's
Speaker 1: making sure that our functions stays as fast and as
Speaker 1: focused on things that you can measure, and really looking
Speaker 1: at ourselves in the mirror and if it works, great,
Speaker 1: let's show the example. If it doesn't, let's pivot and
Speaker 1: do something differently.
Speaker 3: What's a story that you can share of a really
Speaker 3: difficult time, a decision that you had to make that
Speaker 3: there wasn't a whole lot of buy in, but you
Speaker 3: felt strongly.
Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of things were challenging. Even
Speaker 1: when we made the decision to be able to release
Speaker 1: our data from a diversity, equity and inclusion, we had
Speaker 1: never done that and we decided in a relatively short
Speaker 1: period of time that it was something that we felt
Speaker 1: we wanted to do for us as an organization to
Speaker 1: be able to move forward. Well, that wasn't incredibly popular
Speaker 1: at the time. There's a lot that goes in to
Speaker 1: being able to share that as well as our people
Speaker 1: would suddenly see where we were and what that meant
Speaker 1: and what that meant for them, And we had to
Speaker 1: have a lot of conversations about it, and even within
Speaker 1: the team who had done diversity for a very long time,
Speaker 1: they didn't want to necessarily share where we were, not
Speaker 1: to hide it, but not knowing how to make it better,
Speaker 1: and this would be out there, and so it was
Speaker 1: really having to get people on board with what it
Speaker 1: could mean, how this could take us to the next place,
Speaker 1: and then saying, once we make the decision, we're all
Speaker 1: in together, and we all have to make sure that
Speaker 1: we're going to say this was the right thing for
Speaker 1: us collectively, and now what are we going to do
Speaker 1: to take that to the next level.
Speaker 3: I've been in meetings where leadership will share data around
Speaker 3: let's just say, diversity in hiring in the last quarter
Speaker 3: or the last year, and it's not always bright, it's
Speaker 3: not always upward trajectory, and that can be uncomfortable for leaders, right,
Speaker 3: But that's what's called whole yourself accountable. And I want
Speaker 3: to hear your thoughts on accountability and how leaders can
Speaker 3: get more comfortable around this notion of being accountable.
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Leaders are accountable for so many different things, from the
Speaker 1: number of hours that they have or their teams have,
Speaker 1: or the revenue that they generate, or the product penetration.
Speaker 2: That they have.
Speaker 1: And I think it becomes harder when you look at
Speaker 1: it from people because you're dealing with behaviors, you're dealing
Speaker 1: with decision making, you're dealing with family dynamics, you're dealing
Speaker 1: with all of these different things that can feed into
Speaker 1: why people are treated differently, why someone decides to come
Speaker 1: to work for your organization or doesn't end up on
Speaker 1: that recruiting area, why someone decides to stay, why they go,
Speaker 1: And that becomes more challenging because suddenly I'm accountable for
Speaker 1: something that I might not even have any influence over,
Speaker 1: and then how does that work? And so I think
Speaker 1: it's just a complexity. But I think once you have
Speaker 1: the information and the data you can start to work
Speaker 1: to get, you can start to say it's not on
Speaker 1: one person. If someone's going to say or someone's going
Speaker 1: to go with the firm, or someone's successful or someone's not,
Speaker 1: or someone gets promoted or someone doesn't, or someone decides
Speaker 1: to come into the organization or not, that's based on
Speaker 1: a lot of different things and a lot of different
Speaker 1: interactions that they have, which is why diversity is so hard,
Speaker 1: because you got to fix each.
Speaker 2: And every one of those.
Speaker 1: You have to see what's going on with all of
Speaker 1: those as well as the decision that that individual just
Speaker 1: wants to make. And I think that's what people get
Speaker 1: nervous when they hear about accountability. They're like, how can
Speaker 1: I be accountable? When there's so many different factors, but
Speaker 1: then at the end of the day, it's only going
Speaker 1: to be me. And I think that's why you have
Speaker 1: to get into that shared accountability space. That's really important
Speaker 1: because that's the culture change. Not just one person is accountable,
Speaker 1: but collectively you see the importance of being accountable.
Speaker 3: So let's talk about change and the future and your
Speaker 3: advice for those who are listening who want to grow
Speaker 3: in a way that sets them apart for other organizations
Speaker 3: in the inclusion space, and maybe you can use PwC
Speaker 3: as an example as a leader in that.
Speaker 1: I think organizations have to say where are we trying
Speaker 1: to go with this?
Speaker 2: What does it mean for us?
Speaker 1: And really be able to spell those things out, and
Speaker 1: then also take a look at the whole organization and
Speaker 1: of the whole experience that somebody has to say, what
Speaker 1: and where does it happen where people are not treated inclusively?
Speaker 1: Where does it happen where we're not equitable? And it's
Speaker 1: not about fixing one thing but the entire journey. So
Speaker 1: it's surgically going through what's happening in the recruiting process,
Speaker 1: what's happening in the ratings process, what's happening in the
Speaker 1: promotion process, what's happening in the getting on this client process.
Speaker 1: And it's really having to have that very surgical set
Speaker 1: of actions to be able to pull the levers to
Speaker 1: look for change. And I think sometimes companies want to
Speaker 1: make it easy, like we're going to get to this
Speaker 1: number and we're going to have a program, and we're
Speaker 1: going to send all women to that program, and somehow
Speaker 1: that program is going to make women more successful. Well,
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen like that. It is the individual things
Speaker 1: that are said and the actions that take place. And
Speaker 1: I think PwC has done that really well and saying
Speaker 1: we're not just sending everyone someplace. This is about monitoring
Speaker 1: every single day where every single person is in getting
Speaker 1: their feedback in order to really understand what we need
Speaker 1: to change.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and in terms of even just the mindset shifts
Speaker 3: or the mindset adoptions that leaders need. And I'm talking
Speaker 3: now again to maybe the next generation of leaders, I'm
Speaker 3: hearing from you that skills like collaboration, empathy, and ease
Speaker 3: with accountability really important. What would you add to that list.
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things I learned early on
Speaker 1: was listen more than you talk. So this isn't just
Speaker 1: about you and what you want to accomplish, but really
Speaker 1: have that desire to learn why people have the points
Speaker 1: of view that they do, and to make sure that
Speaker 1: you're asking the questions to make sure you understand what
Speaker 1: you're hearing and not just walk away saying all right,
Speaker 1: this is what I took away. Also making sure that
Speaker 1: you can find trusted safe space. I think in everything
Speaker 1: that we do, you're better when you get feedback on hey,
Speaker 1: this hit the mark.
Speaker 2: And this didn't.
Speaker 1: And when you look at things like diversity, that's a
Speaker 1: tough one because some of the times if you miss
Speaker 1: the mark, that then you probably hurt somebody.
Speaker 2: And so you have to.
Speaker 1: Make sure that you're creating these trusted groups so that
Speaker 1: you can get things wrong and whether that's wrong on diversity,
Speaker 1: or you did something wrong creating a presentation, and you
Speaker 1: have that trust that someone will actually tell you that.
Speaker 2: Was an ideal.
Speaker 1: The other thing that I think is incredibly important, and
Speaker 1: I look at the individuals within our organization and myself
Speaker 1: and it's really don't suffer those imaginary problems.
Speaker 2: Just get do it when you get to it.
Speaker 1: Don't worry about the eighteen different things that what happened right,
Speaker 1: and to really stay present in the moment without having
Speaker 1: that type of fear. I think that's really important as
Speaker 1: individuals are looking at starting their career and where can
Speaker 1: they get next.
Speaker 3: As we tie everything together here, Shannon, and a couple
Speaker 3: of questions we like to ask our guests. One is
Speaker 3: just what does leading by example mean to you?
Speaker 1: I truly believe it's around treating people with respect and dignity.
Speaker 1: It's making sure that you interact consistently and frequently with
Speaker 1: people to understand what's motivating them and what are the
Speaker 1: things that draws them to the things that you're doing.
Speaker 1: Making sure that the individuals who don't typically have a
Speaker 1: voice gets a voice. And so when you're sitting around
Speaker 1: the table and the three people who always raise their
Speaker 1: hand or always just blurt things out, make sure the
Speaker 1: other three really have a chance to say the things
Speaker 1: that are important to them, and really make sure that
Speaker 1: people feel that they're heard and that they're special. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I've done from the beginning, and
Speaker 1: this is so antiquated, but go with it. Like my
Speaker 1: grandmother had a blotter on her desk, I have a
Speaker 1: blotterer still on my desk, and I put little notes
Speaker 1: on it so it helps me to say so and
Speaker 1: so was worried about this or really didn't contribute to this.
Speaker 1: And so I keep a running tab of wanting to
Speaker 1: make sure that I can prompt people to start to
Speaker 1: talk or to say or to lean in on it
Speaker 1: so that they realize that I'm thinking about them, that
Speaker 1: they're not not seen just because they're not heard.
Speaker 3: How grateful are you for your matriarchy? I'm telling you,
Speaker 3: I mean, seriously, I'm so lucky. Lottery, I know, get
Speaker 3: the lottery exactly. And Shannon, what do you want your
Speaker 3: legacy to be?
Speaker 1: As I have gotten further on in my career, I've
Speaker 1: got about this more and more, and it's definitely want
Speaker 1: to have somebody say that I left a mark. And
Speaker 1: some people say that you want your name to end
Speaker 1: up in people's hearts, not on their tombstone. And there's
Speaker 1: a quote that I have and again I put everything
Speaker 1: in writing and carry around still my day planner. Again
Speaker 1: very antiquated from William Ward, and it's the mediocre teacher tells,
Speaker 1: the good teacher explains, the superior teacher demonstrates, the great
Speaker 1: teacher inspires and I hope that that's something that I'm
Speaker 1: able to give to somebody and then they're able to
Speaker 1: turn around and be a leader and to inspire others.
Speaker 3: Shannon Skuyler, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 3: I really appreciated all of your storytelling, your advice, and
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, the inspiration. Thank you, absolutely, thank you.
Speaker 3: All Right, that's a wrap. Nikia. You are listening the
Speaker 3: whole time. You helped me prep for this interview. Did
Speaker 3: it go as well as you thought it would?
Speaker 4: It actually went better than expected. I feel like sometimes
Speaker 4: corporate people can be, you know, really button up, but
Speaker 4: I feel like Shannon, she really had a lot of
Speaker 4: great insights, especially on a topic that's so pivotal now
Speaker 4: and has been in the news and we've seen, like
Speaker 4: you mentioned the interview, like slash budgets for GI. I
Speaker 4: really loved how she was saying that you just can't
Speaker 4: like get a group of women and put them in
Speaker 4: a program and like expect them to come out of
Speaker 4: it like great, which I think is what sadly a
Speaker 4: lot of companies do. I like how she's very action
Speaker 4: based and she is like, it's not just like a number,
Speaker 4: we need to really look at the socioeconomic life of
Speaker 4: these people. So, yeah, I thought that was really great
Speaker 4: to hear for someone in her position.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was constantly reminded about how DEI initiatives they
Speaker 3: take resources, they require investment, like good investment, and I
Speaker 3: think that sometimes when you're working with a lot of budget,
Speaker 3: you do these sort of shortcut things and it doesn't
Speaker 3: pay off. And I think we have to find ways,
Speaker 3: even within a smaller budget, how to make a real
Speaker 3: impact and how to make meaningful changes, meaningful impact for
Speaker 3: your employees. Know, PwC is a billion dollar company, it's
Speaker 3: over a century old, it has resources, and it also
Speaker 3: has history. And Shannon herself thirty years at this company.
Speaker 3: She's got her experiences there to fall back on and
Speaker 3: to learn from. And I don't know if every company
Speaker 3: has those advantages. It's not like that it can't be
Speaker 3: replicated at smaller to mid sized companies. But I think
Speaker 3: that's just something that kept coming up for me, is like,
Speaker 3: this is hard work, and I think that companies are
Speaker 3: giving up too soon. And I do think it's partly
Speaker 3: that they've exhausted their resources, probably not in the best
Speaker 3: of ways. They should have hired PwC to help them
Speaker 3: figure out how can I make an impact with, you know,
Speaker 3: the budgets that I have. I also loved the story
Speaker 3: of her mom and her grandmother, and although in the
Speaker 3: beginning she mentioned how she's working so hard to continue
Speaker 3: to pass the torch and like live their legacy out,
Speaker 3: I thought, oh, my gosh, but they were such trailblazers
Speaker 3: even in their times. I guess her point was they
Speaker 3: didn't get enough credit at the time for how excellent
Speaker 3: they were and how ahead of the times they were
Speaker 3: for women in a professional field. I mean, especially her mother.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like that's the beautiful thing about legacy.
Speaker 4: And when she touched on her legacy, she really hopes
Speaker 4: to like make an impact on people's heart instead of
Speaker 4: like just a tombstone. I feel like that's really important
Speaker 4: to think about, because you know, you could be an
Speaker 4: executive and people just remember you as an executive, but
Speaker 4: it's like, who did you affect like the day to
Speaker 4: day that people will wake up maybe twenty years after
Speaker 4: you're gone, to be like this person still inspires me
Speaker 4: till this day. Like that's something very powerful. It seems
Speaker 4: like she's very intuitive of how she wants to inspire people,
Speaker 4: and it's really beautiful that she's been able to stay
Speaker 4: at a company for thirty years. When I read that,
Speaker 4: I had like double check to make sure that the
Speaker 4: right number, and I was like, I've never heard of that.
Speaker 3: But to be clear, you will be staying at iHeart
Speaker 3: for a.
Speaker 4: Thing, guys on the next CEA.
Speaker 2: Yes, thirty years.
Speaker 4: It's a long time that we don't see so I'm
Speaker 4: wondering if that's like something that's going to change in
Speaker 4: the future, if people do adapt. But I feel like
Speaker 4: Shannon's story is a testament like if the company invests
Speaker 4: in these people not just numbers, that they will grow
Speaker 4: and now they're benefiting from investing in Shannon.
Speaker 3: Well, listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much
Speaker 3: as we did. If you like what you're hearing, please
Speaker 3: follow and subscribe. You don't miss out on any new episodes,
Speaker 3: and as always, we want to hear your thoughts to
Speaker 3: make this the best show possible, so please leave us
Speaker 3: a review. In the meantime, you can find me at
Speaker 3: farnws Charabi on Instagram and I'm always on the So
Speaker 3: Money podcast. I'll see you next time. This podcast is
Speaker 3: a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio. Our executive producer is
Speaker 3: Matt Stillo, and our supervising producer is Nikia Swinton. This
Speaker 3: podcast was edited by Sierra Spreen.