WEBVTT - Shannon Schuyler - PwC's Chief Purpose & Inclusion Officer 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:11.600 Really, the department can't solve for diversity, equity, inclusion that 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.400 actually happens on the ground with the people you interact 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.079 with every single day, whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client, 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:20.560 and we're trying to determine how do you bring that 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:24.280 more and not just say here's a couple of programs 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:25.840 that will solve for this, because. 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:27.240 Your programs aren't going to solve for it. 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.840 So how does the culture and the environment really become 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:32.479 more inclusive to do that on its. 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:38.840 Own As companies navigate the shifting landscape of federal diversity policies, 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.680 our conversation with PWC's Chief Purpose and Inclusion Officer, Shannon 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.479 Schuyler couldn't be more relevant. Although it was recorded before 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:52.440 President Trump's executive order ending federal diversity programs. Shannon brings 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.400 three decades of global corporate insight from her more than 0:00:55.520 --> 0:01:00.240 fifteen roles at PwC. Her journey illustrates how invest in 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:06.240 talent shapes both individual careers and organizational culture. Shannon examines 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:11.160 how companies can build authentic diversity initiatives that prioritize people 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:16.920 over statistics and recognize the human experiences shaping their employees' lives. 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.840 I'm furnished to RAVI and this is leading by example, 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:28.840 executives making an impact. Shannon Schuyler, Welcome to leading by example. 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.000 It's really nice to have you with us. It is 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:32.040 such pleasure to be here. 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:32.440 Thank you. 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.360 So you are what my mother would say, a people person, 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.680 And I wonder how it all started for you. Were 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:44.759 you that child who was engaging and empathetic and love 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.720 to lead. Take me back to a story that perhaps 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.080 captures the Shannon Schalar that you have now become. 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.680 Oh that is so funny, because I am not a 0:01:54.720 --> 0:02:00.640 people person. I am a true introvert. It's very challenging 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:02.640 for me to be in large groups of folks that 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.680 I don't know. But I think I grew up being 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:10.720 very intuitive of how people felt and being empathetic. And 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:12.919 I'm always the person. I think even as a child, 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:14.800 and you go back, it's the underdog. It's the kid 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.720 who's being picked on on the playground. It's the person 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.639 who is being judged by others or bullied. And I've 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.960 always been the person that has to run to their defense, 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.320 even if sometimes, especially as a child, it was not 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.799 necessarily welcome. I was like trying to help people who 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.079 just don't have a voice. And I think that's really 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.640 what has propelled me to doing the things that I 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:36.119 do now. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.200 Is it really what you would say, what carried you through, 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:42.400 what you studied in school and how you pursued your career. 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:43.360 I think so. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.200 I grew up with a very matriarchri family and women 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.520 who were there helping other women and helping people, whether 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.600 it was in nonprofits, whether it was on the farm, 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:57.040 whether it was through local politics, but it was really 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.120 trying to uplift people and give people a voice or 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.000 hand or help or support who didn't otherwise have it. 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:05.880 And I think that has just become my mantra of 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:07.280 where I am now and what I do. 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.040 The empathy piece is so important, and I think we 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.640 sometimes take it for granted. There is now a body 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:18.240 of research. Scientists are studying empathy and kindness as it 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:22.640 pertains to things like ROI and leadership. And I'm just 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.799 curious how you think you developed your empathy. We say 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.880 empathy can be contagious. Where do you find the sources 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.880 of your empathy? That's such a great question, and I 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:35.240 don't know if I've ever thought about it that way. 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:40.600 I think I come from a very sensitive family for 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.920 people who are okay with being vulnerable and having the 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:45.080 hard conversations. 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.880 I've been with PwC for almost thirty years. 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.480 One of our values when I started was put yourself 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.320 in someone else's shoes, and I think that that had 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:56.960 always helped to drive me to say, all right, that's 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.600 how I think. But how is somebody else perceiving that 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:04.000 their background, where they've come from, the values that they have. 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:06.040 Why would they look at that differently? And how do 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.000 I make sure that we're on the same wavelength when 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:10.200 we have the conversations. 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.520 Shannon, you wrote about these playing cards that you used 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.680 to keep in your wallet for queens specifically, and how 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.160 each card represented a woman you admired in your life. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.599 Tell me about these women who were they had they 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.760 shape your journey? Well, it's interesting because I had never 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.120 planned on doing that. I had, over the course of 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:33.120 years subconsciously taking these cards out and had put them 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.400 in my wallet and started carrying them around. And suddenly 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:38.320 when I became the firm's chief purpose officer, I was like, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:40.039 oh my goodness, someone's going to say, what's your purpose? 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:41.320 And I'm going to be like, I don't have one. 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:43.279 I'm in my forties. I don't know, I've kind of 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.760 gotten here. It's really been this is the firm's purpose, 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:47.880 And so I really took time to figure it out, 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.080 and I tried to do all the things that people do, 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.560 a little bit of retail therapy, a little bit of reading, 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.400 and I took a college course and my forties saying, 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.920 can I figure out what my purpose is? And randomly, 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.040 when I was changing verses one day and I was 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.159 changing my wallet to match my purse, I had these 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.880 plane cards fall out that are tattered and to the 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:08.440 state even more tattered. 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:09.760 And they are four queens. 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:12.640 And when a woman would pass away in my family 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:14.919 for some random reason, I would take a card and 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.680 I would put it in my wallet. And we had, 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:21.120 over the course of really a handful of years, my mother, 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.599 my aunt, my two grandmothers passed away who always sat 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.440 at the head of the table, and suddenly they were gone. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.720 And I realized then that I was trying to live 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.719 for them, so that their voice and what they could 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.039 have accomplished. My mother was the first state and local 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.520 lobbyist of a bank in Cleveland. These were women who 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.000 had so much to give and they didn't get a 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.840 chance to give it, and that became why I'd made 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.880 the choices of my life, was to give them a voice, 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.440 to give other women a voice who can't and who 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:51.440 are not in the position to do so, whether they 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.200 are just not given the opportunity, or in my case, 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:55.919 whether they had passed away way too early. 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.200 But my gosh, your mother was such a trailblazer. She 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.080 was even in her time, and a really good little golfer. 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.719 She was five four and mighty golf too. I know 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.360 exactly she was like she I know, and you know 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:11.160 she would be looking down saying. 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:11.960 Why are you playing golf? 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:12.200 Mike? 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.160 I know, all right. Shifting gears from golf to your 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:20.680 time at PwC, which is now spanning thirty years, Shannon, 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.440 that is just remarkable. I mean, it just feels rare 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.640 for anyone to stay longer than five years in one role. 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:31.359 So what's kept you interested in staying? Honestly? Did you 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:35.280 always see yourself at one company for your career? Well? 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.520 No, I mean I had thought of my career when 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.560 I graduated from college that I was going to go 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:44.880 into sports broadcasting. Unfortunately I was way too early for 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:47.520 now that women are allowed on the sideline. But back 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.240 then that's what I had wanted to do, and I 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:52.800 kind of ended up in petewc in this role. And 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.000 like many people, I think, you go in and you're like, 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:56.800 I'm here for three to five years and I'll jump 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.640 to something else. But being in an organization that allows 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.960 you to go through so many different paths. I've been 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.279 in a handful of different offices. I've had probably seventeen 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:07.120 different jobs. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:07.960 I started in. 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.440 Recruiting and then went to human resources, then to marketing 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:16.239 and sales, and then corporate social responsibility, and then sustainability 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.160 and then purpose and so you could really reimagine as 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.400 I grew as a person. I was able to grow there, 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.800 and the people really allowed me to do that, to 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.400 create that type of platform, and so incredibly lucky. You 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.280 never thought I would do it. I am amazed by 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.280 the stats now that folks who are thirty five have 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.400 had seven or eight jobs by the time they're there, 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:38.840 and I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to catch 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.840 up now in my later years. But that's what really 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:46.239 kept me here. It's the people and the opportunities. Seventeen roles. 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:48.800 Was there one that was what you would call like 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:53.440 good Hard, where it was really challenging, a real learning curve, 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.840 but ended up being sort of that one experience that 0:07:57.240 --> 0:07:59.880 opened your eyes to the path that you're on now. 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.200 I think each role has created its own challenges. I 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.800 happen to be somebody who really seeks out problems to solve, 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.840 which can be really complex but really exciting. I think 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:12.640 some of the things I've gotten the most out of 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.560 is the organization has allowed me to create the. 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:16.679 First of jobs. 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.679 Like we never had a great place to work leader, 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.880 we never had a corporate responsibility leader, we never had 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.000 a foundation, we never had a purpose leader. And so 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.600 in some of those cases, just finding what I thought 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.560 could help the organization and help our people and help society, 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.440 wrote a couple of white papers and was lucky enough 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:36.680 to have the CEOs at the time asked me to 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:38.959 do it. And so I think that really all of 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.280 those were challenging when you're the first one to do it. Now, 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.480 sometimes I say, the first one to do it is 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:45.440 pretty easy because no one can tell you you're doing 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.360 it wrong. But it's also hard to kind of create 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:50.480 what that value is to make sure that it can 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:51.280 be sustainable. 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.720 I mean, I really in understanding your background, and now 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.720 that you've explained, having these first of roles and the 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:05.760 build to really launch important roles, it's an entrepreneurial spirit 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.160 that either you had or was cultivated throughout these thirty years. 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:09.840 Would you agree? 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:10.720 No? 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.440 I agree, And I think it's also that thirst for 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.440 learning and to want to continue to grow, like to 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:21.880 want to understand something that you don't know a lot about. 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.840 When we started our commitments around especially climate, I knew 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.800 nothing about that. That wasn't my background, but I was 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.000 so interested in learning and growing and saying what would 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.920 this mean for our organization, our people, our clients, the community. 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.880 And I think having that just lean in to know 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.520 more was really what got me to continue to do 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:46.240 a lot of different things and want to test out 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:47.640 whether or not this would work or not. 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:50.280 I want to go back to what you said about 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.080 people who are in their thirties and they've had on 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.560 average seven to eight different jobs. Why do you think 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.800 that is there is a rarity when it comes to 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.920 staying power in a role at a company. Why do 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:04.120 you think there's so much movement. 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.160 I think there's so many different reasons for the movement. 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.640 I think one is people want flexibility, and I think 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:12.160 over the course of the years and now might be 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.520 a little bit different since COVID. You want flexibility in 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.800 your role and you're kind of searching for what that 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:21.040 could be and what it is. I think as you age, 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:24.080 you begin to want different things out of life, and 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.559 sometimes those organizations may or may not be able to 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.800 give that to you. I think sometimes you want to 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.479 try something different and you can't do it within your organization. 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:34.600 And I think it's good to try different things. I 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:36.640 think it's exciting to know your worth and to be 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.480 able to go someplace else, and so I definitely am 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:44.280 jealous that individuals do that and don't find anything wrong 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.240 with it, but rather it really I think today's individuals 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:53.160 want that experience and want different experiences and to be inspired, 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.520 and they just go to different places to get that done. 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.960 Yeah, let's shift gears a little bit to talking about diversity, 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.640 equity and Inclusion DEI, which is central to your work 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.680 and your passion. It's no surprise that you know this. 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:11.079 The diversity equity and inclusion backlash has set in. We've 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.480 seen slash budgets, we've seen reduced D and I leadership. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:19.600 Do you think that this movement is rooted in any truth. 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:22.720 And if you are running public relations for D and I, 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.679 what is the message you think that is lost on 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.080 some of the leadership right now and what is missing 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.080 and it's important to share. It's such a great question, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.199 and it's interesting to sit back and to watch what's happening. 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.080 And I think, first of all, whether it is DEI, 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:40.360 whether it is ESG, I mean, pick it, we definitely 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.439 have backlash, and it's because people. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:43.880 Think it means different things. 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.760 DEI at the core of it, was always trying to 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:51.040 make sure that people had an opportunity to have equitable 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.440 experiences and to make sure that the human condition and 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.959 the variety of backgrounds that people have, that as they 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.800 come into organizations, they're allowed to be able to share 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.080 that and not have that be something that is a 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.520 negative or a takeaway. I think over the course of 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.640 the years we've changed that, and we've changed that into 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.680 meaning that numbers need to be certain numbers, and we 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.360 need to look at the individuals or organizations or race 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.360 or religion or what it is that's the worst off 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:22.920 and only focus on this. And I think we've become 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:27.680 smaller and smaller and smaller with how we look at diversity, equity, 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.000 and inclusion. I think the hardest part and the most 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:33.160 important part is the equity part. It's really saying we 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.000 want people to have an equitable opportunity to be successful 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.800 and to be able to move through an organization. It's 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.640 not about the number in the box. It's about creating 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.120 the culture that allows for people to be treated in 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.559 a way that reflects the importance of who they are 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.959 and the differences that they have. I think, unfortunately we're 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.600 seeing a pendulum swing. I think after the murder of 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.160 George Floyd, with great intent, people looked at where they 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.400 are within their organizations. Some it based on data, others 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.200 just doing it based upon concern and jumped in and 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.439 put goals out there. And I think it was trying 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:08.280 to do the right thing, but not really knowing how 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.240 people were going to get there and what was the 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.080 right way to do it and what they would look like. 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:13.720 And I think it was the same thing when people 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:15.520 made their net zero goals, saying we're going to be 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:17.600 net zero in ten years. Nobody knew how to do it, 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.120 but you put it out there. I hope that now 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.240 is a time to reflect to say were those right, 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.360 because if they are, then you can continue them. If 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.000 they weren't and they were an overreach, then you should 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.599 look back. I also hope that now companies realize that 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:34.920 they should be looking as we always should have, at 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.240 the socioeconomic implications that are out there. This is about 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:41.440 helping the individuals, helping the groups, helping the communities that 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:46.040 truly need the help, not because an individual box was checked. 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.960 We need to make sure that we're looking at broadly 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.160 who's disadvantaged, and how to make sure that we have 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.240 everyone come to the table. And I worry that the 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:59.800 pendulum swum so hard and again with really wonderful people 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.760 at tempting to make change and get to a tipping 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.240 point when they saw the opportunity to now saying now 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.000 we don't need it at all. And I hope that 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:10.880 we can get to that middle ground. 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.280 In some cases there might need to be some reconciliation. 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.520 I'm hearing that you see it as sort of like 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:22.120 an over not overreach, but overcorrected. So for those leaders 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.880 who feel like we swung too far on the pendulum, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:29.960 how would you recommend finding a center and reconciling What 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.720 are the questions they should be asking, as opposed to 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.560 jumping to the conclusion of we need to slash budgets 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.040 and eliminate our entire initiative around DEI. 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:41.680 Well, I think it's really important to say what are 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.960 we solving for Over the course of five years within 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.600 our industry, PwC was the first to actually release all 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.440 of our diversity data because you have to actually show 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.000 where you are. I mean, a lot of people are 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.480 making these goals and making the decision to do something 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.880 or not with no data to say what they should 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:58.880 be doing and what they shouldn't be doing. So I 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.600 think it's saying, let's step, let's look and say what 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.440 really is right or wrong to make sure that we're 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.160 making the right steps that are there. I also think 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.200 that it's really important that you look at what these 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.920 things mean both to your people as well as to 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.400 your clients or your customers and your other stakeholders. I 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.840 think when people were originally making a lot of their 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:20.160 goals several years ago. 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.440 They didn't look at that. They looked at one issue. 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.320 They looked at something horrible was happening, and how do 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.240 we respond to it? Instead of saying, who are all 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.000 the stakeholders that are in this and what will they think? 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.440 And how do we make sure that what we're putting 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.920 out there really helps to elevate everyone? 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.400 And we have a narrative for why. 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.160 We're doing it, and I think it's really important that 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:42.160 we get. 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.440 There finding the through line is what I'm hearing. And 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.240 in your role, you are working with people across a 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:55.520 spectrum of cultures of lived experiences. How do you connect 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.760 with your teams and your people? What are the tools 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.560 that you use, Shannon, are their tricks that you have 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.920 or you know, just a methodology that you implement. 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.280 Well, I think it's about putting all the pieces together. 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.920 So going forward, we're now uniting human resources and our 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.800 diversity efforts to really say, let's make sure that the 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:24.360 people experience overall is one that can uplift everyone understanding 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:27.200 that there's different things happening one way or another. I 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.000 think one of the huge things that we have at 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.640 the firm is we've grown to over forty percent of 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:35.119 our people are a part of inclusion networks that allows 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:40.560 individuals to really understand culturally and based upon their demographic 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.680 what's happening, but also allows for allies. We've had over 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.320 five thousand allies during those groups over the course the 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:48.680 last couple of years, because people want to know and 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:53.320 people want to understand, and so it's less about the programs. 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:55.560 I mean, you have to have things around the edges, 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:59.400 but more about every day, every day, how are people 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.800 getting opertunities, how are people working together? How are you 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:06.560 building in that engagement Because you can't just do this 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.040 within the department that you were talking about. The department 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.919 can't solve for diversity, equity inclusion that actually happens on 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.800 the ground with the people you interact with every single day, 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.480 whether your colleague, your supervisor, your client, And we're trying 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.520 to determine how do you bring that more and not 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.280 just say here's a couple of programs that will solve 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.600 for this, because your programs aren't going to solve for it. 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.160 So how does the culture and the environment really become 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.000 more inclusive to do that on its own? What do 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.720 you think are some of the limitations? Or I should say, 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:43.359 how far should your employer go to address and meet 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.359 you where you're at on a personal level? Right if 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.359 you're dealing with whether it's financial struggles, you're dealing with 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:55.800 microaggressions at work and outside of work if you're dealing with. 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.800 Mental health issues. Life is hard on so many skills. 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.440 You're a caregiver for your parents, for your children, and 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:05.960 we bring all of that to work. And what do 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:08.879 you see as kind of like the guidelines around that, 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.800 because your employer is not your therapist, but there still 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.919 needs to be a level of understanding and empathy. 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.000 It's such a great question, and my feeling is arguably 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.240 you spend more time at work, depending upon your job, 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.199 than you do anywhere else. So the thought that you 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.439 should come to work and not deal with any of 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.439 those issues and just sit down and do your things 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.040 and leave is just not feasible. 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:32.119 That's just not going to happen. 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:34.840 Nowadays, during the workday, you could get a call from 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.280 somebody to your point, you could deal with mental health issues, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.679 So that your employer has to have resources to be 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.479 able to give you outlets to deal with those types 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.119 of issues, and I think. 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:46.159 That that's really important. 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.880 The lines have blurred so much in hybrid even has 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:53.560 had those lines blur even more so where you're doing 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.600 so much of your personal alongside your work and your 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:00.119 work alongside your personal. So I think organizations do you 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.960 have to have outlets to support issues around mental health. 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.560 I think they do have to have things that help 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.560 you around childcare and caregiving and emergency childcare backup. I 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.640 think your employers do have to have resources to help 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.320 you in financial planning and help you to repay your 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.600 college loans. You have to be able to deal with 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.159 that in order to function at the level that I 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.200 think a lot of companies certainly want you to be 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:23.800 able to function. 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:28.000 That. Yeah, investing in your workforce means investing not just 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:32.160 in their professional wellbeing, but also their personal wellbeing, their 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:35.120 financial wellbeing. I so appreciate that. 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.920 I think the one thing that companies are realizing though, 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.240 and I think again this is another one of those 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.440 pendulum swinging is that you don't have to answer every 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.240 single thing that every single employee has a challenge on. 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.320 And I think as we've seen in the last several years, 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.880 there's so many social issues, there's climate issues, there's all 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.800 these different issues that have become especially so politicized, and 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.440 for a while, I think companies thought, I'm going to 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.840 have to weigh in on everything, and that's too much. 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.520 That kind of waters down the ability to actually say 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:08.520 when there's something that matters Okay, now we're going to 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.840 talk about it because it's something as an organization we 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:14.280 can actually help to influence. And I think that's one 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.240 that is going to be really interesting for employees when 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:21.240 they had for a little bit their leaders commenting on everything, 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:23.760