1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. We have the great 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Alan Dershowitz with us today. He has a new book 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: coming out called The Preventative State, The Challenge of Preventing 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: serious harms while preserving essential liberties. 5 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: There it is, you see it, and I think it's 6 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 2: a very. 7 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: Good book to be talking about right now, Alan, because 8 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: of everything that's going. 9 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: On in the world. 10 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, everything is about prevention. Deportation is about preventing violence. 11 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 3: Bombing Iran or making a deal with Iran is about 12 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 3: preventing them from getting nuclear weapons. Israel's actions and Goza, 13 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 3: controversial as they are, are intended to prevent the repetition 14 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 3: of October seventh. And in my book To Prevent a State, 15 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 3: I go through every conceivable active prevention, ranging from medical 16 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 3: intervention to climate intervention. I put them all together and 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 3: I create a conceptual framework for analyzing this major shift 18 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 3: that's going on in our society. Larry Summers, president of Harvard, 19 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 3: put it very well. He says, no one but Alan 20 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 3: Dershowitz would seek to bring common motive thought to issues 21 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 3: as the versus bail, climate change, and terrorism. And that's 22 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 3: what I try to do. Because I've noted a major change. 23 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 3: You know, we used to wait until horms occurred and 24 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 3: then we would go and punish them. Today the harms 25 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 3: are so serious nuclear, environmental, medical, that we move much earlier, 26 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 3: and we endanger civil liberties when we do that, we 27 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 3: also protect people. And the goal of my book is 28 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 3: to create a balance which allows the government to act 29 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 3: preventively but without denying essential civil liberties. 30 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: Now it's interesting, I mean I found it fascinating because 31 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: as I'm reading through it as somebody who's run for office, 32 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: that's really the thought process you go through with everything 33 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: that you everything in your platform, and what you're considering. 34 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: Okay, if we remove. 35 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: Taxes here, what is the ultimate effect of that? If 36 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: you prevent if you try to prevent school shootings, what 37 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: are you taking away? 38 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: And you have a lot of that. 39 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: One is one that's obviously very sensitive to me because 40 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: I have kids in school, Because I have parents who say, 41 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: I don't want to have my kids checked when they walked, 42 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: when they walk in the door, But then, well, don't 43 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: you want your kids to be safe? 44 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: So you have to balance all that. 45 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 3: Oh, I have a whole chapter in the book on 46 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 3: red flag laws. On these are rules that are designed 47 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 3: to prevent guns from falling into the hands of young 48 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 3: people who can use them in school shooting. So I 49 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 3: deal with that, and the red flag laws have prevented 50 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 3: some shootings, but they've also disarmed people who probably have 51 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 3: a right under the Second Amendment to bear arms. So 52 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 3: you know, there's no free lunch, and every time you 53 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 3: improve our safety, you risk the possibility of diminishing our liberty. 54 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 3: Benjamin Franklin put that very well two hundred years ago 55 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:58,839 Speaker 3: when he said that giving up a little bit of 56 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 3: liberty for safety is a problem that we have to 57 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 3: deal with. In my view, if you give up just 58 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 3: a little bit and you get a lot in return, 59 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 3: that's a good trade off. But if you give up 60 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 3: a lot and you get very little in return, that's 61 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 3: not a good trade off. And so what I try 62 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 3: to do in this book for laymen, obviously for average readers, 63 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 3: is to suggest an approach of jurisprudence. For example, we 64 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 3: all know that when somebody is charged with murder, we say, 65 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 3: better ten guilty go free than one innocent be wrong. 66 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 3: You can find the ten to one ratio, which actually 67 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 3: comes from the Bible. But when it comes to preventing harms. 68 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: How many nine to elevens are we prepared to prevent 69 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 3: in exchange for how much intrusion into the rights of people? 70 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 3: That's the tradeoff. We haven't figured out a way of 71 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 3: analyzing that yet, and that's what I try to do 72 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 3: in the preventive State. And you know it's available now. 73 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 3: You can get it on Amazon. So I hope people 74 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 3: will read it and and get in touch with me 75 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 3: and give me input because this is a work in progress. 76 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: This is the first book on the jurisprudence of prevention, 77 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 3: and I hope it won't be the last book. I 78 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 3: hope it will start others asking questions about this, including 79 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: elected officials. 80 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: I think that is that's the most valuable part about it, 81 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: is you start to think more deeply about it. 82 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 2: And I think oftentimes when. 83 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: We do make new laws, I always say it's the 84 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: unintended consequences of the laws that people years later say, oh, 85 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: how did this happen? 86 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: And now we can't do this and we can't do that. 87 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: But I look back at the Founding Fathers and you 88 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: talk about that quote, and I think, you know, they 89 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: were much closer to oppression than we were. I mean, 90 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: they had lived it, so they understood it from a 91 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: different point of view. And I think oftentimes, especially the 92 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: youngest generation that's coming up in Congress today, you know, 93 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: the people in their twenties and their thirties, I think 94 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: they're quick to say, we want to protect everybody, and 95 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: so they don't always think about those unintended consequences. 96 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 2: This book is I mean. 97 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: Honestly, this is what makes you go there is so 98 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: much more to contemplate when you are making the decision 99 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: to do something as radical as create a new law. 100 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,119 Speaker 1: And I know people say, oh, we're making new laws 101 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: every day, but you should think of it as radical 102 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: because you're changing the law. You should make sure that 103 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: you know everything about you've thought it through every possible way. 104 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: But I don't know if we're doing that. And this 105 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: made me think that. 106 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 3: Too many of us believe in that T shirt that 107 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 3: says just do it. I want to have it says 108 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,799 Speaker 3: think about it first and then do it. Take, for example, 109 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 3: the obvious problem of what do you do with somebody 110 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: who's arrested for a crime but it's presumed innocent. Do 111 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 3: you keep him in jail pending trial or not? And 112 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 3: if you do keep him in jail. We'll never know 113 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: whether he would have committed a crime. But if you 114 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,679 Speaker 3: let him out and he commits a crime, that's very visible, 115 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 3: and the judge says, oh my god, look what I've done. 116 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 3: And so the inclination is to lock them up when 117 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 3: in doubt, throw away the key. And I do an 118 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 3: analysis that shows that a lot of people have spent 119 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: a lot of years in prison for things they never 120 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 3: would have done and never did do. And so we 121 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 3: have to focus both on the innocent and the guilty, 122 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 3: on prevention, but also on not denying people basic liberties 123 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: or we won't live through the COVID. And there were 124 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: mandatory injections and some people got sick as the result 125 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 3: of it. And I quote a letter from George Washington 126 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 3: to his troops. I actually own the letter, written in 127 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 3: the hand of Alexander Hamilton. It's on my wall, urging 128 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 3: all American troops during the Revolutionary War to be inoculated 129 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 3: against smallpox. Washington says, we won't lose this war to 130 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 3: the British, but we might lose it to smallpox if 131 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 3: every soldier doesn't get inoculated. And of course, back in 132 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 3: the day an oculation was not as safe as it 133 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 3: is today, and so for everything, we have to strike 134 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 3: a balance. For climate control, we lose jobs when we 135 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 3: get too green, but we lose climates when we don't 136 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 3: get green enough. So how do you make those very 137 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 3: difficult course benefit analyses? And what I do is provide 138 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 3: a framework for doing that based on my sixty years 139 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 3: of teaching. This is my magnum opus. You know, I'm 140 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 3: now eighty six years old and I've written fifty seven books, 141 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 3: but this is the most important one I wrote. It's 142 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: something I've been working on for sixty years. I started 143 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 3: teaching in the area of prevention when I got to 144 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: Harvard nineteen sixty four, and I probably taught thirty courses 145 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 3: on prevention over the years and probably gave one hundred lectures. 146 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 3: And so it's all summarized in this book, The Preventive State. 147 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it really should be required reading for anyone 148 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: who is considering running for office or anybody who's in 149 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: office right now. You brought up climate change and the 150 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: discussions around that. What we've done in Michigan, we've seen 151 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: that in a more aggressive manner because the governor has 152 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: come out and said she wants to be fully renewable 153 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: energy by twenty thirty five. That alone has really damaged 154 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: the ability for the state of Michigan to get new 155 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: businesses because there's that feeling of I don't know if 156 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: I will have energy, I don't know if I can 157 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 1: manufacture with this type of limitation. How do you talk 158 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: to because I think politics comes into this too. I 159 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: don't think that decision was based solely on this is 160 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: what's best for the environment. But also there's a lot 161 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: of pressures from the political outside to come in and 162 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: say you have to do this or we won't support you. 163 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: So how do you balance the politics of it with 164 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 1: the decision making. 165 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 3: Oh, you're absolutely right, there are pressures on both sides. 166 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 3: If you don't do enough for the environment, we're gonna 167 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 3: have problems twenty years from now. But if you do 168 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 3: too much, we're gonna lose jobs now. And in the book, 169 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 3: I talk about the difference between acts that have an 170 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 3: packed immediately and acts that have an impact twenty years 171 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,599 Speaker 3: from now. Politicians obviously care more about tomorrow in the 172 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 3: day after tomorrow than they care about months or years 173 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 3: from now, And the basic question is who decides. And 174 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 3: of course, in a democracy that people decide, and it's 175 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 3: always going to be a tradeoff. There are those who say, 176 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 3: and they may be right, that if you go green, 177 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 3: you can create new jobs. We'll prove it to us, 178 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 3: show us. But generally that isn't the case. Generally they 179 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 3: have to be trade offs, and generally you have to 180 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: give up something to get something. And that's what I 181 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: propose in the book, and I propose mechanisms for making 182 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 3: those decisions and how they get made. Should it be 183 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 3: the courts, should it be the legislature, Should it be 184 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 3: the governor, the executive, the president. These are all things 185 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 3: that are being debated now. For example, in the context 186 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 3: of deportation, we know that there are too many criminal 187 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: aliens in the United States who are endangering our people. 188 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 3: We see it every day, and they're very visible. When 189 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 3: an alien, an illegal alien, commits a rape, for a 190 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 3: murderers the front page in the story. And yet there 191 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 3: are many who don't, who live good lives. And so 192 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: what we have to do is create more visibility on 193 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 3: both sides and let America make the decision. We are 194 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 3: a nation of immigrants, but we are a nation of 195 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 3: legal immigrants, and so we have to pose the question 196 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 3: in the context of deportation and President Trump's about to 197 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 3: mega decision today or tomorrow. Should he bomb Iran's nuclear facilities? 198 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 3: That would be completely preventive. It's called the Beagan doctrine 199 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 3: because monk and began when he was the Prime Minister 200 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: of Israel decided to bomb Iraq's nuclear reactor, which saved many, 201 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 3: many American lives. Because when America went into Iran. Can 202 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 3: you imagine what would have happened if one hundred thousand 203 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 3: American troops were greeted by nuclear weapons from Iran? But 204 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 3: Israel prevented that from happening at a very low cost. 205 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 3: One person was killed in the process, and Iran was 206 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: prevented from developing, Iraq from developing bombs. Should the same 207 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 3: thing happen with Iran, would the Second World War have 208 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 3: been prevented? Had England and France invaded a Nazi Germany 209 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 3: in nineteen thirty five and killed Hitler, maybe that could 210 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 3: have prevented the Holocaust. Those are the kinds of issues 211 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 3: that I debate in this book. And there's no perfect 212 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: answer in a democracy, The perfect the imperfect answer is 213 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 3: given by the people. 214 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: I mean, you talk about that in the book that 215 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: he wrote, mind confident. There was a moment where people 216 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: could have said, this guy's really dangerous. But how many 217 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: times are there at that moment in history where you 218 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: could have realized that someone was really dangerous or they 219 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: could have just said that? And you point out that 220 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: dictators in the past have made these radical claims that 221 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: they're going to go out and do something crazy, and 222 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: then they end up not doing that. So who could 223 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: have actually foreseen that Hitler would become who Hitler actually became. 224 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, you brought up immigration. 225 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that a little bit because 226 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: there's this question of process right now. But I also 227 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: think that this book is very important when it comes 228 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: to this subject because this is a case of Joe Biden, 229 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: and I think there were a lot of pressures from 230 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: the left to say, we're just going to open it, 231 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: We're just going to throw the. 232 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 2: Doors wide open. I've had a lot of people say to. 233 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: Me it's unfair that it takes so long to become 234 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: a legal citizen, but there is I mean, just as 235 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: people are complaining about due process, these people deserve due process. 236 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: The process of getting into the country has to go 237 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: through a court as well. There is a limited amount 238 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: of courts. There's a limited amount of time. How do 239 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: you please everybody when it comes to immigration, So you 240 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: can't do that. 241 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 3: Many of my relatives came to the United States as 242 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: a result of immigration. They waited online. They waited five years, 243 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 3: six years, sometimes longer. I know, I've helped people become 244 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 3: Green card holders and citizens, and you know, it's the 245 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 3: greatest day in their life. My research assistant from Germany 246 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 3: recently became a citizen. Oh my god, it was like 247 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 3: you had a newborn baby. He was so happy he 248 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 3: was an American now, and he waited his turn. Had 249 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 3: he done it illegally, he might have been deported. And 250 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 3: so people have to make a decision. If you're willing 251 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: to wait online and do the right thing, you become 252 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: a citizen. If you cheat and you're caught, you don't 253 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 3: become a citizen. And there will be some false positives 254 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: and false negatives. We will allow on some people who 255 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 3: we shouldn't have allowed in, and we will deny some 256 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 3: people who we shouldn't have denied. It's inevitable, and the 257 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 3: book is all about this. The book is all about mistakes. 258 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 3: We always make mistakes. Police shoot too quickly, and if 259 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 3: they don't shoot quickly enough, they get shot. A friend 260 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 3: of mine, a very close friend of mine, a policeman, 261 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 3: Frank Burns, was shot and eventually killed because he hesitated 262 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: and didn't want to shoot. At a couple. The man 263 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: was holding the woman and the man was threatening the woman, 264 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 3: and if he shot, he might have killed the woman. 265 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 3: So he didn't shoot, and then the man shot him 266 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 3: and eventually killed him. That's the kind of decision that 267 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 3: policemen have to make every single day. The Supreme Court 268 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 3: yesterday nine to nothing rendered a decision about whether or 269 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 3: not the police can shoot somebody in a traffic stop. 270 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: And you know, people in robes very easy when you're 271 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 3: sitting in the Supreme Court with robes to second guests 272 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 3: of policeman who is nervous as hell, who has his 273 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 3: gun out, who understands that his best friend was shot 274 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 3: a year ago for not taking action, and he withholds 275 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: action and he gets shot, or he does it withhold 276 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 3: action and he shoots and he gets prosecuted. These are 277 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 3: the kinds of decisions that I focus on in my book, 278 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 3: and I try to suggest the new jurisprudence and new 279 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: way of thinking about this whole new phenomenon. You know, 280 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 3: we've spent thousands of years developing a jurisprudence for how 281 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 3: we respond to past crimes. But today, with for example, 282 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 3: spousal abuse, we have to figure out ways of protecting 283 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 3: women from abusive husbands or abusive boyfriends, whether it be 284 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 3: the case that's now pending in New York or cases 285 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 3: all over the country, and so so there have to 286 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 3: be mechanisms whereby women can leave their husbands and go 287 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: to safe places. Those of preventive measures that I write 288 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 3: about in the book too. You might think there's nothing 289 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: in common between climate control, vaccination, and a woman being 290 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 3: beat up by her husband, but there's a lot in common. 291 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 3: They're all preventive measures. 292 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: We've got more coming up with Alan Dershowitz, but first 293 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about my. 294 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 2: Partners at Ease Health. Great news. 295 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: President Trump's executive order slashing the cost of prescription drugs 296 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: is going after the price gouging for drugs like insulin 297 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: with Obamacare. 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We've got more 315 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: for you after this. 316 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: When we talk about preventive measures, we're talking right now 317 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: kind of nationally, but on the world stage, you also 318 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: have to take preventive measures. And right now Donald Trump 319 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: is getting praise and also some criticism for his engagement 320 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: in the Middle East, because we've got some people saying, well, 321 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: what does this do to Israel. There is this complaint 322 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: right now that he has said, you know, Cutter has 323 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: come to him and they've offered him this jet, and 324 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: he said, you know, this is a great gift. 325 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 2: I personally see. And maybe I'm wrong. I'll give you 326 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 2: my interpretation. 327 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: I think Donald Trump understands that when you go to 328 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: another country, you have to understand their culture, you have 329 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: to understand how to how to honor what they believe 330 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: is important. And they have offered him something. For him 331 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: to come out and say to the American people, they 332 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: offered me this, it's not safe, We're not taking it 333 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: would have stopped all talks immediately. 334 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 3: Oh look, I had the same experience. I went to 335 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 3: katark at the request of the Emir, and the Emir 336 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 3: gave me a gift, and I gave it to Charity. 337 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 3: I took it though I would never turn it down 338 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 3: because that would be in something. But then how I 339 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 3: deal with it is my business, and so I gave 340 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 3: it to charity. And I think that Trump is doing 341 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 3: the same thing. He's not taking the airplane for himself, 342 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 3: He's taking it to use as president of the United 343 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 3: States and then it will either be turned over to 344 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 3: the library or it will be used by the future 345 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 3: president of the United Statess Air Force one. But I 346 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 3: completely agree you're very sensitive to this because I had 347 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 3: a lot of dealings with the Middle East. I worked 348 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: on the Abraham Accords, I worked on many of the 349 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 3: issues in the Middle East. You don't simply say no 350 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 3: to a Middle Eastern leader. By the way, you also 351 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 3: don't say no to Donald Trump. You know, you have 352 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 3: to understand who you're dealing with. And as a lawyer 353 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 3: for sixty years, I know how to deal with the 354 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 3: Supreme Court justice who is arguing with me, or a 355 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 3: judge or a prosecutor or a president. You have to 356 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 3: be tough and firm, but polite, and you have to 357 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 3: understand their culture. That's the key. Understanding their culture, and 358 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 3: that means do not turn down a gift. 359 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you about that, because in the 360 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: state of Michigan, we have a big Arab American community 361 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: and that's kind of been my experience when I go 362 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: and meet with them has been and you know you're 363 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: going to stay, you're going to have a meal together, 364 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: you might as well plan an entire day because they 365 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: are going to host you in a way that, you know, 366 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: the community. 367 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 2: On the West side of Michigan may not be the same. 368 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: We have a time frame that we're going to meet, 369 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: and it's going to be a quick meeting, and we're 370 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: going to go on with our day. 371 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 2: You know, if I go over to Dearborn, it's. 372 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: Going to be an entire evening of spending time together, 373 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: getting to know each other, talking about our kids. 374 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: It's a different culture. How does that play. 375 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: Politically then in the country, Because I do I see 376 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: this as also a transactional relationship where it's like, well, 377 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: if you were. 378 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 2: In office, if you were doing this, how could you 379 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: help us and how can how can we be a 380 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: part of what you're doing. I think that's a good thing, 381 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 2: though I do too. 382 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 3: I was invited by the Prime Minister of the Palestinian 383 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 3: Authority to have lunch and I'm used to having lunch 384 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 3: in a half an hour, and I go to this restaurant. First, 385 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 3: there are arm guards all around me to protect me, 386 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 3: and then they bring out I would say, roughly speaking, 387 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 3: one hundred dishes they put on the table of every 388 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 3: conceivable food and I eat it all because it's fantastic, 389 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 3: and I figure I'm done. Then they bring out the 390 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 3: main course block and I finished lunch at four o'clock. 391 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 3: That's the culture of Palestinians who live in Ramaala, where 392 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 3: I spent those wonderful four hours. And so you know, 393 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 3: the Michigan is a very diverse society. I don't particularly 394 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 3: love some of the elected officials that have been that 395 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 3: have come out of Dearborn, but the people are wonderful. 396 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 3: And look, the Jewish people and the Palestinian people have 397 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 3: so much in common. They have both been victims of 398 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 3: persecution and double standards. I just hope for nothing more 399 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: than a peaceful resolution of the Israel Palestine Israel Israel 400 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 3: Muslim conflict, so that both countries can beat their swords 401 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 3: into plowshares and turn their nuclear weapons into nuclear medicine. 402 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 3: I think that Donald Trump has a plan for seeing 403 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 3: if that's at all possible by expanding the Abraham Accords. 404 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 3: And I hope you can bring that about without endangering 405 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 3: the Middle East and the world by allowing you on 406 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: to develop nuclear weapons. 407 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: But that's what your book is all about. 408 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: I mean, essentially, it's how do you do one without 409 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: causing a bad effect? 410 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 2: With the other. 411 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: And that to me, that's again why I say every 412 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: person in the political world should be reading this because 413 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: it is how you should think of everything, and it's 414 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: really how you I think today we have people that 415 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: run for office on emotion, and emotion can't rule the day, 416 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to decision making at this level. 417 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: And that actually that was one of the things when 418 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: we've gone to the Arab American community in the state 419 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: of Michigan, I and I campaigned there a lot for 420 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: the president. One of the things that they would talk 421 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: to the people who were you know, a lot of 422 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: people would come to these rallies and there is a 423 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: lot of emotion around that issue, and it is something 424 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: that is to the average American foreign to us because 425 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: we don't live in a war zone. We can't even 426 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: imagine it, and you can easily get on one side 427 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: or the other without truly knowing the history of that region. 428 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: But overwhelmingly, the people who had family members there would 429 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: say to me, our belief is that Donald Trump will 430 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: go there and try to bring peace and stop the death. 431 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: That was what they wanted. 432 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 3: Look, I agree, for example, yesterday Donald Trump shook hands 433 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 3: with the former dictator of al Kaeda, who's now the 434 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 3: president of Syria, And people say, oh my god, I 435 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 3: shouldn't reward terrorism. No, no, you have to be pragmatic. 436 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 3: And what Donald Trump does, he looks in the future, 437 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 3: and you know, you make peace with bad people. I 438 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 3: had dinner with the a mirror of Katar in Donald 439 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 3: Trump's hotel in New Jersey along with President Trump. And 440 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 3: you know, I have a lot of criticism of Katar. 441 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 3: But if he can help make priests, if he can 442 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 3: help bring about the hostages, if he can prevent another 443 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 3: October seventh, Hey, I'm on his side, and I'm prepared 444 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 3: to forgive him in the head of Syria for all 445 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 3: the things that they may have done in the past, 446 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 3: if they can help produce something in the future. That's 447 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 3: what prevention is all about. Prevention is all about striking 448 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 3: a balance. It means compromise, it means negotiation. It means 449 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 3: being willing to give up a little bit of freedom 450 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 3: for a lot of security, but never being willing to 451 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 3: give up a lot of freedom for a little bit 452 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 3: of security. And that's the thesis of the book. Benjamin 453 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 3: Franklin put it better than I did two hundred years ago, 454 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 3: but I try to build on Franklin's notion. And you know, 455 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 3: the subtitle of the book is about that the challenge 456 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 3: of preventing serious harms while preserving essential liberties. That is 457 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 3: a paraphrase of Benjamin Franklin. So yeah, this is a 458 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 3: new books one hundred and twenty five years old in 459 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 3: the sense that it reflects what our founders had in 460 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 3: mind for why we have a constitution that is intended 461 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 3: to strike that balance. 462 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: Well, and that's something that I think a lot of 463 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: people are sensitive to right now after the pandemic and 464 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: they feel like they were constrained. I mean, I went 465 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: to New York during the pandemic and we couldn't walk 466 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 1: in a restaurant. 467 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: The streets were empty. It was it was a shocking time. 468 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: But I think it was a shocking time because you know, 469 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: it just affected people's lives. 470 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 2: The kids were out of school, everything. 471 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: People are still panicked about, well, what if the executive 472 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: orders could do something that would stop everything from happening again. 473 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: And I think that's where when you see a lot 474 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: of power with one person, whether it be a governor 475 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: or a president. And this is why Donald Trump has 476 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: done a lot as president that has gone through executive order. 477 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: And you see Congress right now with a big, beautiful 478 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: bill trying to make some of these changes permanent to 479 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: the government. And I think that that's obviously we're seeing 480 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: the push and pull right now on that. How do 481 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: you take some of this out of executive orders and 482 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: have it in law without making taking away our liberties. 483 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 3: Well, it's very easy. Congress has to step up to 484 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 3: the plate. They haven't been because they have a president 485 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 3: who they support. The House and the Senator are both 486 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 3: in the hands of Republicans. They've left it to executive order. Now, 487 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 3: that was Thomas Jefferson when he bought Louisiana. That was 488 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 3: President Lincoln when he suspended the rout of Habeas corpus. 489 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 3: That was Franklin Roosevelt. Some of the great presidents have 490 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 3: used executive orders because the legislature hasn't really stepped up. 491 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 3: The Article one of the Constitution gives the legislature the 492 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 3: primary power to make these decisions. But if the legislation 493 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 3: doesn't do it, or if there's an emergency, the president 494 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,959 Speaker 3: has to do. It's subject to judicial review. That's our 495 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 3: wonderful system of checks and balances. You know, you're talk 496 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 3: about the pandemic. I still carry this around with me 497 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 3: in my pocket. I rarely wear it, but when I 498 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,239 Speaker 3: go into the theater and it's very crowded, you know, 499 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 3: I'll still put it on as a preventive precaution. I'm 500 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 3: eighty six years old. I do not want to come 501 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,959 Speaker 3: down with a COVID, and so at my age I 502 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 3: err on the side of wearing a mask. If I 503 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 3: were twenty six years old, I might very well air 504 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 3: on the side of not wearing the mask. So everything 505 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: is different, you know. Even we hear a lot about 506 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 3: due process. And in the book, I explain due process. 507 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 3: What does due process mean. What it means is the 508 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 3: process that's due to you based on who you are. 509 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 3: So if you're an American citizen and you're charged with 510 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 3: a crime, your due process is massive, you know, indictment, 511 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 3: presumption of innocence. But if you're an immigrant just across 512 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 3: the border and was caught, the only process that's due 513 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 3: to you is you have to be given a chance 514 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 3: to show you're an American citizen, and if you're not, 515 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 3: you're just taking back and put across the border again. 516 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 3: That's the process you're due. And so due process is 517 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 3: always going to be relative to who you are, what 518 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 3: actions the governments are taking, and how emergent these actions are. 519 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 3: And so our constitution is not a suicide pact. It's 520 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 3: a sliding scale of rights, privileges and concerns to make 521 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 3: sure we protect the interests of the people. Thomas Jefferson 522 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 3: said that. Abraham Lincoln said that, and I try to 523 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,239 Speaker 3: emulate that in my book The Preventive State, where I 524 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 3: argue for a very pragmatic approach, very pragmatic. And it's 525 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 3: not surprising that the introduction to the book was written 526 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 3: by Steve Bryer. Justice Stephen Bryer, who was known as 527 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 3: the most pragmatic of the justices on the Court. He 528 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 3: loved the book because he said it was really pragmatic 529 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 3: and focus on liberty, but it also focus on the 530 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 3: essential goals of having a system of governance under law. 531 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 3: You know what they discovered at the Harvard Law Library 532 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 3: last week an original copy of the Magna Carter from 533 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 3: twelve fifteen. That was the original charter that gave us 534 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 3: our rid of abus corpus do process, the rule of law, 535 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 3: and a range of other things. And the amazing thing 536 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 3: is it was sitting one hundred yards away from me 537 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 3: for the fifty years I was Harvard in the library, 538 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 3: and I never once saw it or even knew it 539 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 3: was there. 540 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: That's incredible. 541 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 542 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: a Tutor Dixon podcast. Honestly, it's been such a joy 543 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: to sit here and talk to you and learn from you, 544 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: and I can see why your students loved you so much. 545 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: But before we end, I want to go over one 546 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: more thing, because we're suddenly hearing all these reporters are 547 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: coming out with these books about who the true Joe 548 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: Biden was the last four years, and we're suddenly hearing oh, 549 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: talks of he should have been in a wheelchair and 550 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: all of this. And like I said, the President over 551 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: this past week has been in the Middle East, and 552 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: now prominent Democrats are coming out and saying, look what 553 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: it's like when you don't have somebody that's brain dead. 554 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 2: They've actually said that. 555 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: They knew that we law four years in this country. 556 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: First of all, how much damage has that done to us? 557 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: And is it something that President Trump is able to 558 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: quickly reverse? 559 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 3: Well, look, I knew Joe Biden for fifty years, and 560 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 3: he always started he always had difficulties word finding. Obviously 561 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 3: it got much worse in the last several years. And 562 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 3: I think that the people around him had an obligation, 563 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 3: just the way people around Ronald Reagan had an obligation 564 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 3: to disclose his Alzheimer's toward the end of his life, 565 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 3: and Woodrow Wilson, his wife, didn't disclose. People love to 566 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 3: hang on to power and will never know what we 567 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 3: lost because there's one thing to say, oh, he did 568 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 3: something wrong. We don't know whether try whether or not 569 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 3: Biden did anything wrong, but maybe he failed to do 570 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 3: things that he could have done. When you compare Joe 571 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 3: Biden's last months in office with Donald Trump's first months 572 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 3: in office, you see incredible differences. And so did we 573 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 3: lose something, Yes, And did the people around Donald Biden 574 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 3: fail us? Yes, they did. They should have been more 575 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 3: honest and more open. And I think the American people 576 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 3: have a right to be complaining about that. But you know, 577 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 3: it's non partisan. That's why we have our twenty fifth Amendment, 578 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 3: because we know that nobody is irreplaceable and nobody is 579 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 3: beyond the possibility of getting sick. Franklin Dona Roosevelt, his 580 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 3: last month in office, he was very, very sick. We've 581 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 3: had at least four or five presidents who have not 582 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 3: functioned up to their expected capacity. But it's much more 583 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 3: visible now with social media, with television, with the debate. 584 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 3: I mean, obviously, so the debate understood that we have 585 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 3: a president who is not functioning at full capacity. But 586 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 3: let me tell you one thing about Joe Biden. He's 587 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 3: a nice guy. He's a nice guy. I've known him 588 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 3: for years. He's kind and he thinks well of people. 589 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 3: He's a very nice man. But by the way, so 590 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 3: was Donald Trump. I've known Donald Trump for many years 591 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: as well. If you have a problem with a family 592 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 3: member or anything like that, Donald Trump is the first 593 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 3: guy who's going to call you every day, who's going 594 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 3: to worry with you about whether your child or your family. 595 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 3: I know from personal experience that that's true. It was 596 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 3: not true of Barack Obama, who was not a nice 597 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 3: guy and didn't care about other people and friends. So 598 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 3: he may have been you know, people think he may 599 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 3: have been a good president. But when you know people personally, 600 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 3: and I've known every president of the United States over 601 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 3: the past since since John Kennedy was a president. The 602 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 3: first person I ever voted for. You can judge people 603 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 3: on two criteria, how great a president were they? Were 604 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 3: they nice guys? Were they know people? I hope pretty 605 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 3: soon we can say were they nice women? I want 606 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 3: to see you, I want to see we're ready for president? 607 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 3: So maybe you know you get back into politics. Who knows? 608 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 4: Well? 609 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 2: I know. 610 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: I think what you're saying is incredibly important, and I 611 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: think we saw that. You know, it's hard because there's 612 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: so much drama around the discussion of should he have 613 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: been in office? But I think that we saw that 614 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: very clearly after the debate because of the reactions of 615 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: people who truly knew him on TV. You saw people 616 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: tearing up. You saw people saying, this isn't the Joe 617 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: that I knew. And people who aren't nice people don't care. 618 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,719 Speaker 1: They don't even come out in comment. 619 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 3: Tell you a story. So I'm in the White House 620 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 3: for a Hnneka party. Biden is the vice president. This 621 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 3: is years ago, and my phone rings and you're not 622 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 3: supposed to have your phone on it, and he says Alan, 623 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 3: I said, oh, my grandson is about to learn whether 624 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 3: he got into Harvard or not. He said, take the call. 625 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 3: Take the call. Pall and my grandson says, I got 626 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 3: into Harvard, and Joe Biden grabs the phone for me, 627 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 3: and he asked me what my grandson's name is. I 628 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 3: say Lyle and vice Praisie, and I say, says. 629 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 4: Good job, congratulations getting into Harvard. Now do the smart thing. 630 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 4: Go to the University of Delaware. It's a much better school, Biden. 631 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 4: He is very friendly. And by the way, he's probably 632 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 4: right now about Harvard and the University of Delaware. Harvard 633 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 4: has become very diminished and very broken. And state schools, 634 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 4: many schools now have improved enormously. And I'm giving up 635 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 4: graduation speech soon at a university. I'm going to be 636 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 4: talking a lot about what's happened to IV's, what's happened. 637 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 3: To elite schools, and how important it is to have 638 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 3: the federal government and state governments exercise some degree of 639 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 3: control over what's going on in these campuses. The inmates 640 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 3: cannot be allowed to run the asylum. 641 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: Right well, I mean, and that is a perfect segue 642 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: to your book, because this is the question, how do 643 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: you prevent that. Let's just talk about this one more 644 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: time before you go. It's the preventative state. The challenge 645 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 1: of preventing serious harms while preserving essential liberties. 646 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 2: Where can people get it? 647 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 3: Amazon's available now literally pub date I think was this week, 648 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 3: and so you can get it. It was a top 649 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 3: bestseller on new releases, and so I'm hoping people will 650 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 3: buy it. More importantly, I'm hoping people will read it. 651 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 3: I'm hoping it will influence the debate, and I hope 652 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 3: it will influence young members of Congress and other elected 653 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 3: officials to understanding that we're moving to a new phase 654 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 3: in our history of the world, much more to it 655 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 3: prevention and away from reaction, and we have to make 656 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 3: sure we understand. And there's a lot in the book 657 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 3: about artificial intelligence and how artificial intelligence both poses dangers 658 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 3: and also poses potential prevention and relief from the dangers 659 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 3: because artificial intelligence gives us a better ability to predict 660 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 3: the dangers of the future. So it's very much a 661 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 3: contemporary book which takes into account all the developments in 662 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 3: modern science. 663 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: I mean, but it is starting to look like Minority Report, 664 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: that movie where they could prevent things from happening. But 665 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: then you had the question of are you arresting people 666 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: before crime is committed? 667 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 2: And they're not really. 668 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: It's fascinating, but honestly, I do think that no matter 669 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: what level of government, whether you are on the local 670 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: county commission, if you were in your state legislature, if 671 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: you are a US Senator, a US congresswoman or man, 672 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: then you should read this because it was. It's very 673 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: valuable to me as I'm reading through it and I'm 674 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: thinking about my own state and the things that have 675 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: gone wrong, but the things that we have to do 676 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: to make it right. It's a different world. You're right, 677 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: so I appreciate it. Thank you so much for being 678 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: on today, Alan Dershowitz. 679 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 3: Thank you for your brilliant questions, and I really appreciate 680 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 3: your having me on the show. 681 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you, and thank you all for joining us 682 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others, 683 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: go to Tutor Dixon podcast dot com, the iHeartRadio app, 684 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 685 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 2: Have a blessed day,