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Speaker 1: slash Katiecuric. Hi everyone, I'm Katiekuric and this is next question.
Speaker 1: That was the incomparable Renee Fleming. You know, once when
Speaker 1: I was walking near Lincoln Center a few years ago,
Speaker 1: some tourists stopped and said, I just love you, Renee,
Speaker 1: and I was like what. Then I realized she thought
Speaker 1: I was Renee Fleming, which was such a compliment, even
Speaker 1: though I can't really sing and certainly not like Renee Flemy.
Speaker 1: It may surprise you all to learn that Renee has
Speaker 1: long suffered from anxiety and even physical pain as a
Speaker 1: result of crippling stage fright. That got her wondering why
Speaker 1: is this happening? She became obsessed by the mind body
Speaker 1: connection and has spent years exploring the topic. Along the way,
Speaker 1: she met doctor Francis Collins, who shared her curiosity and
Speaker 1: love of music. The former director of the National Institutes
Speaker 1: of Health, is an avid guitarist and bluegrass junkie. Their
Speaker 1: relationship was a match made in research heaven. In fact,
Speaker 1: Francis wrote the forward of Renee's new book called Music
Speaker 1: and Mind, Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness. I
Speaker 1: recently had an opportunity to speak with both of them.
Speaker 1: So here's our conversation about your brain on music.
Speaker 2: Hi, Renee, how are you?
Speaker 1: I am great. You know, I'm such a fan and
Speaker 1: I feel like we've become friends in recent years, which
Speaker 1: has been a real highlight for me. And before I
Speaker 1: talk about your incredible book and your extraordinary work, by
Speaker 1: the way, I want listeners to know a little more
Speaker 1: about your background. We recently had a cup of coffee
Speaker 1: and I was embarrassed to say I didn't know as
Speaker 1: much about your childhood as I should have. And your parents, Renee,
Speaker 1: were both music teachers. Is that where you got your gift?
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that's where I had no choice,
Speaker 2: because you know, we just lived and breathed music starting
Speaker 2: from a very early age. In fact, you know, I
Speaker 2: was told that I sang before I spoke. I was
Speaker 2: a very late speaker, and that's probably true, you know,
Speaker 2: and we you know, we were kind of taking road
Speaker 2: trips and singing the road signs in harmony, and I
Speaker 2: thought everyone did that. I thought that was just normal,
Speaker 2: and then I just kept up with it. And I
Speaker 2: think that, you know, some of the early learning is
Speaker 2: really helpful because music is a language, and so it
Speaker 2: becomes one of the languages that you speak as a child.
Speaker 1: Did your parents have extraordinary voices like you? And what
Speaker 1: about your siblings? And if not, were they pissed that
Speaker 1: you did and they didn't?
Speaker 2: Now everybody, you know, there's so many There were so
Speaker 2: many great voices out there. It's just but finding your
Speaker 2: way to a high level career and singing is another
Speaker 2: whole thing. You know. They say the voice is ten percent.
Speaker 2: And my parents were wonderful teachers and musicians and fat
Speaker 2: my father's still alive. Actually, what did.
Speaker 1: Your dad play and what did your mom play?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: They were both singers, Oh, both singers. Yeah, they were
Speaker 2: both singers, and they both played keyboard to some extent.
Speaker 2: My sister teaches very high level goji for non classical
Speaker 2: singers at Temple University, so she's producing the next generation
Speaker 2: at Broadway stars, and my brother sings at a rock band,
Speaker 2: but he teaches technology in middle school in Newer Shelles,
Speaker 2: so we're all. Everybody's an educator. My other little brother,
Speaker 2: actually my little brother sings in the Houston Grand Opera Chorus,
Speaker 2: so he is a professional singer.
Speaker 1: Wow. So you all obviously were bitten by the bug.
Speaker 1: And if you aren't directly involved with music your music adjacent.
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it might surprise a lot of people
Speaker 1: Renee that you don't consider yourself a natural performer. And
Speaker 1: you experienced some intense stage fright when you were a
Speaker 1: teenager and a little bit later in your life when
Speaker 1: I think you were just dealing with a lot of
Speaker 1: pressure and stress, So that I understand led you to
Speaker 1: be interested in the mind body connection. Can you talk
Speaker 1: about how that happened and why?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the pressure for performance in our field is really high.
Speaker 2: We are we are literally reviewed in the newspaper the
Speaker 2: day after we perform almost every time, and certainly for
Speaker 2: most of my career that was, and the and the
Speaker 2: standards and the by which we are judged were very high.
Speaker 2: So it's not easy to be us. And and add
Speaker 2: to that that it's a tightrope that the fact that
Speaker 2: we're singing virtuosic music alone on stage without a microphone,
Speaker 2: so there's no nobody's adding to the sound or making
Speaker 2: it more beautiful or adding auto tune, very naked on stage,
Speaker 2: and so that that produced not only stage right, but
Speaker 2: I had sematic pain, which is a kind of a
Speaker 2: psychosomatic pain, which nearly derailed my career a couple of times.
Speaker 1: When did those moments surface, Because it's interesting if you
Speaker 1: think about what was going on in your life right Renee,
Speaker 1: first as a teenager and later I know, when you
Speaker 1: had your two children and your marriage was falling.
Speaker 2: Apart absolutely, And you know, first of all, the stage
Speaker 2: right started in middle school, started at a very young
Speaker 2: age because I was incredibly shy. I was a bookworm,
Speaker 2: so I did not have an ounce of natural performer
Speaker 2: in me and I had to learn it had I
Speaker 2: learned it literally by by observing my friends who for
Speaker 2: whom it was easy. And you know, Juilliard at Eastman
Speaker 2: and when I studied abroad, so I picked those skills
Speaker 2: up kind of. But yeah, when you have life stressors,
Speaker 2: then everything falls apart, and in my case, I think
Speaker 2: it was the stage right, served as a kind of
Speaker 2: a hedge against the pressure but also against not making
Speaker 2: life changes that I needed to make. And you know,
Speaker 2: I feel lucky that I got the right support and
Speaker 2: I was able to get through it without stopping, because
Speaker 2: we know very famous people who have stopped performing and
Speaker 2: sometimes they don't go back for twenty years.
Speaker 1: You say there were a lot of factors RENEE involved
Speaker 1: in your I guess maybe panic attack or discomfort on stage,
Speaker 1: and you say one was a deep seated discomfort with success.
Speaker 1: Now I've never heard of that, but when I thought
Speaker 1: about it, you're right, you right. We can all point
Speaker 1: to celebrities or politicians who have sabotaged their careers with
Speaker 1: drug and alcohol abuse or other poor choices. Part of
Speaker 1: the problem is that you're being taken far from your
Speaker 1: roots and comfort zone, maybe to a level of success
Speaker 1: that's far beyond your friends and family, and that's uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: Right, Exactly. It's really kind of intuitive when one thinks
Speaker 2: about it, that, yeah, what causes people to burn up
Speaker 2: their lives when they're really achieving greatness, And in many
Speaker 2: cases it is definitely that you've come too far from
Speaker 2: your comfort zone as a human being. From your comfort zone.
Speaker 2: Is you know how you grew up et cetera, or
Speaker 2: you weren't prepared to succeed and to excel somehow you
Speaker 2: know you were made to believe on some it's always
Speaker 2: a subconscious level. It's never conscious, right that you know
Speaker 2: something bad would happen if you did really well?
Speaker 1: How did you fix it? How did you deal with
Speaker 1: it those times where you have this crippling anxiety and fear.
Speaker 2: Well, there are two ways. One is to understand the
Speaker 2: root so that that take that's therapy, and the other
Speaker 2: are behavioral therapy, so you know, rekind of tuning or
Speaker 2: thinking about performing. I had to stop seeing the audience
Speaker 2: as judgmental, you know, I imagine everyone had a scorecard
Speaker 2: and they were not well intentioned, right, And so once
Speaker 2: I turned it around and it was a book by
Speaker 2: barely sales on public speaking, I was able to see
Speaker 2: myself as a conduit for something beautiful that I was
Speaker 2: sharing giving to the audience. So I reversed the direction
Speaker 2: of the experience of performing, and it it helped immensely.
Speaker 1: I think all of us, at one time or another
Speaker 1: have felt dramatically moved by a piece of music or art.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting when something hits you, it's almost all
Speaker 1: of your senses are swept away. I've had that experience.
Speaker 1: I'm sure probably hearing you sing Renee, but you know,
Speaker 1: many many times. So talk about this feeling for people
Speaker 1: listening and are trying to understand the real neurological connection
Speaker 1: that's going on between music and your entire being.
Speaker 2: Well, it's very much embedded in our DNA, and it's
Speaker 2: been with us since before we spoke, I mean really
Speaker 2: the beginning of humans, and it's incredibly powerful. From my
Speaker 2: perspective on stage, it's a flow state. I'm in the
Speaker 2: zone when I'm performing. It induces feelings of awe and
Speaker 2: awe has now by sciences been proven to be something
Speaker 2: incredibly beneficial. But what's wonderful about it in terms of
Speaker 2: the fact that it's so much a part of our lives.
Speaker 2: Any aesthetic experience, whether it's being in nature or seeing
Speaker 2: visual art, or just looking at design and architecture, has
Speaker 2: a huge effect on our biology. Really down to the
Speaker 2: cellular level. It's the elephant in the room. As my
Speaker 2: friends who's a maximmon says, it is something that we
Speaker 2: take for granted and we don't really understand how powerful
Speaker 2: it is. And now the fact that science is looking
Speaker 2: at it, is researching it, is looking at the brain
Speaker 2: when we're having these experiences is teaching us a lot.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about your book because it really stems from
Speaker 1: a conversation with Francis Collins, who is head of the
Speaker 1: NIH in twenty fifteen. He's also an amateur musician. So
Speaker 1: tell us about that meeting and how it led to
Speaker 1: your commitment to this work, because Renee, I mean, you've
Speaker 1: really gone there. You have dug deep into this topic.
Speaker 1: Tell us about that initial meeting.
Speaker 2: So we were at this really interesting dinner party because
Speaker 2: it was the day after the marriage equality decision by
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: Francis also remembers this dinner.
Speaker 3: It was very remarkable and the kind of thing that
Speaker 3: you can't imagine could have really happened, but it did. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: it was nine years ago. It was like this summer
Speaker 3: of twenty fifteen. There was a dinner party for thirty
Speaker 3: or forty people at an exclusive and outside of Washington,
Speaker 3: d C. And my wife and I were invited, and
Speaker 3: amongst the nvites were three Supreme Court.
Speaker 2: Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg Antonin Scalia and Kennedy were all there. Wow,
Speaker 2: it was tense. It was tense, and I was seated
Speaker 2: between RBG and Scalia because they're both.
Speaker 1: Oh god, although they're very good friends, are they were
Speaker 1: very good friends?
Speaker 2: Yes, but this was tough. You know, his rebuttal was
Speaker 2: really scathing, et cetera.
Speaker 3: And they had just the day before their decision about
Speaker 3: a gay marriage. And let's just say, some of the
Speaker 3: opinions there were pretty strongly worked it. Stealia and Gettensburg
Speaker 3: were on different sides of this, and Kennedy was sort
Speaker 3: of the tiebreaker. So everything was a little tense, ah
Speaker 3: during the dinner, and then we went outside after It's
Speaker 3: a lovely summer evening and there was a bluegrass band
Speaker 3: that had been hired to come and play a few
Speaker 3: tunes to hopefully lighten the occasion. And the organizers knew
Speaker 3: that I'm a bit of a bluegrass fan and told
Speaker 3: we will bring your guitar and maybe you could join in,
Speaker 3: So of course I did. How fun, Yeah, it might
Speaker 3: surprise people that I would actually know the tunes like
Speaker 3: Soldiers Joy and Red Wing, but it was easy to
Speaker 3: jump in. But still it was not quite clicking. You
Speaker 3: could sort of feel the group had not really come
Speaker 3: together at that point. And then this incredibly stunning woman
Speaker 3: I'd never met before I came up to the band
Speaker 3: and said, you know, maybe we ought to get everybody
Speaker 3: to sing. Maybe that would help sort of bring us
Speaker 3: all together. And I gradually realized, oh my god, this
Speaker 3: is Renee.
Speaker 1: Let me and you all became fast friends that night,
Speaker 1: didn't she did.
Speaker 3: I was initially terrified that she would want to sing opera,
Speaker 3: which was not in my repertory, but that much Renee
Speaker 3: knows music from every possible genre and was immediately comfortable
Speaker 3: with jumping in with folk songs like the Water Is
Speaker 3: Wide and Shenandoah and within you know, a song or two.
Speaker 3: Pretty much everybody stopped looking glom and tense and joined
Speaker 3: in and began to sing with us, including Scalia, singing lustily,
Speaker 3: raising his brandy glass and his cigar. And something really
Speaker 3: happened there. It was a perfect example of how music,
Speaker 3: down through probably hundreds of thousands of years, has brought
Speaker 3: people together at a time where or maybe they weren't
Speaker 3: feeling so friendly to each other. Music behinds us, music
Speaker 3: inspires us. It happened that evening It's happened lots of
Speaker 3: other jobs before and since, and that was pretty impressive.
Speaker 3: And so after all of this, al Renee said, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm about to start a special year at the Kennedy
Speaker 3: Center where I'm supposed to be an advisor, and I'm
Speaker 3: kind of looking for a project to throw myself into.
Speaker 2: Got the ideas, and so he said, we have a
Speaker 2: new Brain and institute. We want to understand it's an initiative.
Speaker 2: We want to understand this incredibly complex organ the most
Speaker 2: complex thing in the universe, really, and so music is
Speaker 2: one of the ways that we can do that. So
Speaker 2: now they've funded since we started our project, which is
Speaker 2: Sound Health with the NEA the Kennedy Center. I'm an
Speaker 2: advisor there.
Speaker 1: I know, and you did a nineteen part series. I
Speaker 1: was watching some of them last night. I mean, that
Speaker 1: was a huge commitment. I think you did it during
Speaker 1: the pandemic. But you did a whole series of webinars
Speaker 1: really on every aspect of music and the brain, which
Speaker 1: I guess in some ways laid the framework for the book. Right.
Speaker 2: Well, it certainly did, I mean, and Vivic Morti is
Speaker 2: now our Surgeon General, has really become a champion for
Speaker 2: this work. As well, and the NIH has spent thirty
Speaker 2: million dollars funding music research. I mean, nobody would have
Speaker 2: predicted that when I met him.
Speaker 3: This summer. Just in about a month is the major
Speaker 3: symposium of the Brain Initiative, which NIH has been supporting
Speaker 3: now for seven years, started by President Obama in the
Speaker 3: way back then, and which has now hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 3: of scientists working on it, people with expertise and neuroscience
Speaker 3: but also in robotics and engineering and everything you could
Speaker 3: think of. And there's going to be all symposium at
Speaker 3: that meeting about music and how it's going to teach
Speaker 3: us things about how the basic science of the brain works,
Speaker 3: but also teach us how to be even more effective
Speaker 3: in this non pharmacological of providing healing to people who
Speaker 3: are suffering. And everybody kind of wants to see that
Speaker 3: happen too, So we're getting the momentum. The will woo
Speaker 3: reaction seems to be fading as people are more and
Speaker 3: more like, oh, maybe there's something useful to here.
Speaker 1: When we come back. Renee illuminates the powerful connection between
Speaker 1: music and memory, and I remember listening to Frank Sinatra
Speaker 1: in my family's basement.
Speaker 2: Thank everyone needs.
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Speaker 1: first month with promo code Katie when you go to
Speaker 1: talkspace dot com slash Katiekuric. Match with a licensed therapist
Speaker 1: at talkspace dot com slash Katie Curic. We're back with
Speaker 1: Renee Fleming and doctor Francis Collins. Is a lot of
Speaker 1: this about memory, so it's interesting. My friend Peter Sincottie,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know Peter. He's a great
Speaker 1: jazz pianist and vocalist. And I told him that I
Speaker 1: had a song that I thought he should perform and record,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to play it for you because I
Speaker 1: just love this song. I love the words I love
Speaker 1: everything about it.
Speaker 4: Here's to those who love not to wisely, No, not wisely,
Speaker 4: but too well. To the girl who's song eyes with
Speaker 4: envy when she hears that wedding bow. To the guy
Speaker 4: who throw party if he knew someone to call. Here's
Speaker 4: to the loser, bless.
Speaker 1: Renee. I used to listen to that song in my basement.
Speaker 1: My dad had an album Frank Sinatra. It was the
Speaker 1: Capitol Records Years, and I absolutely love that song. So
Speaker 1: when Peter sent that to me, I just had a
Speaker 1: rush of memories. First of all, I loved the words,
Speaker 1: I love the tune. I love everything about this song,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of an obscure. I was going to
Speaker 1: look up who wrote it, but Frank Sinatra recorded it
Speaker 1: with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra, and I want It made
Speaker 1: me wonder how much of our attraction and being swept
Speaker 1: away and for us to be in a certain flow
Speaker 1: has to do with memory and experiences.
Speaker 2: Well, memory is incredibly powerful and very much connected to music.
Speaker 2: So that's why, for instance, a couple of things. One
Speaker 2: is that if you hear a song, you're taken back
Speaker 2: to your wedding or your high school graduation or whatever.
Speaker 2: Formative experiences you've had, and it's immediate, you know, and
Speaker 2: the nervous system and also the brain. It's so much
Speaker 2: about the brain. But basically, and you can switch, you
Speaker 2: can go back, you can hear the next song and
Speaker 2: it will take you to a different memory. So it's
Speaker 2: really it's incredibly powerful. But what we're discovering for Alzheimer's patients,
Speaker 2: which is something everyone is afraid of now talking all
Speaker 2: over the country, and that's the leading I would say
Speaker 2: subject around which people have anxiety. But memories are very
Speaker 2: much connected to our experience. So that's one of them.
Speaker 2: That's one of I would say the most powerful courses
Speaker 2: of research right now.
Speaker 1: Pain is another, So Francis, music can actually ease physical pain.
Speaker 3: I'll give you our own little personal example. Just ten
Speaker 3: days ago, I was in the hospital after a major surgery.
Speaker 3: I was having a pretty bad time in the postop phase,
Speaker 3: and I really didn't want to indulge in a lot
Speaker 3: of narcotics to try to handle the pain. So instead
Speaker 3: I decided, Okay, I'm going to take my own medicine here.
Speaker 3: Let's see if we can use music therapy to get
Speaker 3: me through a tough couple of days. And after doing
Speaker 3: a lot of listening to James Taylor and a lot
Speaker 3: of Alison Krause.
Speaker 1: I love Alison Krause.
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Yes, And this one may seem odd
Speaker 3: to you, but I'm also a fan of a really
Speaker 3: wonderful pipe organ performance. So I pulled up a lot
Speaker 3: on YouTube all the amazing pipe organ performances of bach
Speaker 3: preludes and fugues being played on organ c in Europe
Speaker 3: that are just amazing, and I got lost in all
Speaker 3: of that and sort of the pain it was still there.
Speaker 3: I knew it was there, but it wasn't near is intrusive.
Speaker 3: I was kind of getting the benefit of this. Well,
Speaker 3: that was a short term couple of days, but certainly
Speaker 3: for people with chronic pain that doesn't go away. The
Speaker 3: benefits also are becoming more and more clear. And NIH
Speaker 3: has a big program right now investing in rigorous studies
Speaker 3: of this to try to see what are the nuances
Speaker 3: that lead to a better outcome, because again, right now
Speaker 3: it's a little empirical, and maybe there's a way we
Speaker 3: could be even more effective if we understood it.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because you know Dan Levitton, who does a
Speaker 2: neuromapping really in the chapter that he writes for my
Speaker 2: book talks exactly about where this all lives in the
Speaker 2: brain and how it works and how it's tied together.
Speaker 2: But the reason the NIH is studying music is because
Speaker 2: music is in every known part of the mapped brain today,
Speaker 2: and that's incredibly powerful. There are almost no other activities
Speaker 2: that are that widespread in the brain. And part of
Speaker 2: it is the complexity of engaging with music. You know,
Speaker 2: it's hearing, it's rhythm, so it's you know, movement. Also,
Speaker 2: it's memory, it's language because we're we're often thinking about
Speaker 2: words to go with these things. You know, it's just
Speaker 2: a very complex activity. And if you're making music, it's
Speaker 2: triply so.
Speaker 1: And I know that when they mapped your brain singing renee,
Speaker 1: it showed areas of your brain lighting up that don't
Speaker 1: light up when you're speaking.
Speaker 2: Right, correct. And what was surprise the scientists in my
Speaker 2: fMRI study. I was in that machine for two hours,
Speaker 2: my goodness, and you were singing away, yeah, singing away
Speaker 2: like you know many you know, many repetitions. But what
Speaker 2: surprised them was that imagining singing was more powerful than
Speaker 2: the other two. Really, and speaking or singing, Wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 1: So just thinking of songs, and does the thing go
Speaker 1: for people who can't sing or who prefer listening over singing.
Speaker 2: Maybe not. Maybe singing for them would be more more
Speaker 2: kind of almost traumatic to have to sing in an
Speaker 2: MRI machine, So that might have been more active, you know,
Speaker 2: they said to They actually did sort of surmise that
Speaker 2: because I'm a singer, it's a bit second nature, right right,
Speaker 2: But while imagining, I had to tune out the noise
Speaker 2: of the fMRI, of the MRI, I had to focus,
Speaker 2: et cetera. So it was a little different.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So, but the same benefits of singing again
Speaker 1: for people who are not blessed with your amazing voice.
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't keep me from singing just because
Speaker 1: I can't sing like you, Renee. But what about people
Speaker 1: who are just listening to music? Can you talk about
Speaker 1: what that does to the brain.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, you're a pianist, so you are
Speaker 2: a musician, which is so fabulous that you had that training.
Speaker 1: Well it's more, you know what's really weird, Renee, is
Speaker 1: I play by ear now and I play mostly like
Speaker 1: Irving Berlin in the key of C because it's hard
Speaker 1: for me to play implicated like Billy Joel songs with
Speaker 1: a lot of flats or sharps. But while I took
Speaker 1: piano for ten years, when I sit down, I just
Speaker 1: sound out music that I like and just play it.
Speaker 1: And that's I don't know. I'm the only one in
Speaker 1: my family who can do that, and I was hoping
Speaker 1: my daughters would be able to play by ear, but
Speaker 1: they can't either. Where does that come from?
Speaker 2: First of all, I'm really jealous. You know. I had
Speaker 2: the chance to take jazz harmony from a jazz musician
Speaker 2: in graduate school, and I in exchange for voice lessons,
Speaker 2: and I wish I had done it, because to be
Speaker 2: able to play by ear. First of all, that's the
Speaker 2: most relaxing thing you can do, I know, because it's
Speaker 2: improvisation and you have to shut off the part of
Speaker 2: your frontal lobe which judges you have to that has
Speaker 2: to turn off for you to be able to do that,
Speaker 2: which has got to be great for your health. And
Speaker 2: so listening to music, what's fascinating about it is it's
Speaker 2: been shown to be incredible beneficial for anxiety, for depression,
Speaker 2: for pain. So it's really beneficial to listen to music,
Speaker 2: and especially we do it anyway. We use playlists for
Speaker 2: exercise or cooking or you know, walking.
Speaker 1: So, but what is it renee that is there a
Speaker 1: particular place in your brain it impacts, like for pain,
Speaker 1: does it light up a part of your brain? And
Speaker 1: then it sort of overcomes the part of your brain
Speaker 1: that is having to deal with pain, Like how does
Speaker 1: it work?
Speaker 2: So it can be a distraction. It's releasing chemicals into
Speaker 2: your brain and doorphins and these are feel good chemicals.
Speaker 2: So it's it's it's incredibly helpful for our health to
Speaker 2: do this, especially especially today today's stressors. This year is
Speaker 2: going to be rough. We know that. So I've I've
Speaker 2: actually become a poster child for neural arts and I'm
Speaker 2: doing artistic things every day that I enjoy and getting
Speaker 2: away from the news, very upsetting opinion news. I'm really
Speaker 2: just not doing it this year. Yeah, so it's helping me,
Speaker 2: but I can't tell you how much happier I am.
Speaker 2: So and listening to music is one of those things.
Speaker 2: So it's really about the release of chemicals in your
Speaker 2: brain that makes this work. And then they also talk
Speaker 2: about the fact that one of the things I don't
Speaker 2: know if you ever you know, if you hurt yourself,
Speaker 2: if you cut yourself and then you bump your knee, yeah,
Speaker 2: the initial pain goes away because you're now distracted by
Speaker 2: the new pain.
Speaker 1: So right, Well, whenever I'm getting a shot or like botox, yeah,
Speaker 1: once in a while, I will pinch my hand really
Speaker 1: really hard, so I'm focused on the pain in my
Speaker 1: hand instead of the pain in my forehead. Confessions here
Speaker 1: on next question with Katie Couric.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and also, you know, frankly, listening to music can
Speaker 2: also work the same way. It is a distraction, but
Speaker 2: more than that, it does something really positive.
Speaker 1: You mentioned patients with Alzheimer's, and you and I have
Speaker 1: talked about this as well. There was a documentary a
Speaker 1: few years back. I wonder if it's available. I interviewed
Speaker 1: the people behind it, and then there was like some
Speaker 1: breaking news story so it never aired and they were crestfallen,
Speaker 1: so I know. And it's called Alive Inside, and it
Speaker 1: was about people giving elderly folks and nursing homes. I
Speaker 1: guess at the time maybe iPods and earphones or whatever,
Speaker 1: and how their personas completely changed when they heard music
Speaker 1: that they knew and recognized and loved.
Speaker 2: It. Can't get away from me if I'm in this place.
Speaker 2: It takes food to my school. They Oh god, beautiful.
Speaker 2: Does it make you happy to sing for us? That's
Speaker 2: the memory piece Stan Cohen's film, It's Beautiful. It's on YouTube.
Speaker 1: Is it okay? I highly recommend Alive Inside Everybody because
Speaker 1: it's pretty extraordinary. And I learned so much from your book,
Speaker 1: and I thought we could just talk about a few
Speaker 1: of the points quickly. You write that hearing is I
Speaker 1: knew this, by the way, when my dad was in
Speaker 1: hospice and he was dying, and I was very, very
Speaker 1: close to my dad. He was just an amazing person.
Speaker 1: I brought a little speaker to the hospital room and
Speaker 1: my phone and I played all his favorite songs. When
Speaker 1: I used to play the piano, he'd yell down to
Speaker 1: the basement, Katie, play as Time goes by, or I'll
Speaker 1: be seeing you. And so I played all of these
Speaker 1: wonderful songs that I knew he loved because I had
Speaker 1: always heard that hearing was the last to go. But
Speaker 1: tell me about why we haven't done more research on that.
Speaker 2: Well, it's been hard to do the research on anything artistic.
Speaker 2: So it's the brain imaging and it's the fact that
Speaker 2: technology has really expanded that's allowing us now to see
Speaker 2: all of this. So it's new. It's basically relatively new
Speaker 2: because but technology makes it possible. So what's interesting about
Speaker 2: that is my husband's aunt at the end of her
Speaker 2: life didn't know anyone around her, didn't speak. I was there,
Speaker 2: I saw this, But if you said I'm looking, she
Speaker 2: would finish the whole song over for leave Clover exactly.
Speaker 2: She would finish the song with words absolutely perfect. And
Speaker 2: there are five or six songs that she would do
Speaker 2: and I just sort of thought, this is actually joyful,
Speaker 2: and you know, these were pieces from her childhood. But
Speaker 2: she didn't open her eyes and she didn't know anyone.
Speaker 2: So it is the last memory to go. Music memory,
Speaker 2: and that's why researchers are using it to try and
Speaker 2: extend that that moment of a liveness that you see
Speaker 2: in the film. I mean, look at the Henry segments.
Speaker 2: They're really powerful.
Speaker 1: Francis. What music can do for these patients is really remarkable.
Speaker 3: You know, on some of the more dramatic examples that
Speaker 3: I have seen in terms of how music can help
Speaker 3: in that situation where people who have had strokes that
Speaker 3: affect the speech area of the brains, all called Broca's area.
Speaker 3: Most people are locked in in a terribly frustrating way.
Speaker 3: They know what they want to say, but they cannot
Speaker 3: make the words come out. They can understand what people
Speaker 3: are saying to them, but they can't interact backwards. But
Speaker 3: guess what if you ask them to sing of the
Speaker 3: Happy Birthday song, they can do it, And once they
Speaker 3: realize they can do it, then you can start to
Speaker 3: retrain their communication ability by singing it instead of singing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's also something important for people to know
Speaker 1: that even talking to someone you may not think is
Speaker 1: there is really important at the end of someone's life.
Speaker 1: Did you know early humans sang before they spoke? Renee
Speaker 1: explains right after this. If you want to get smarter
Speaker 1: every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating
Speaker 1: takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up
Speaker 1: for our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to
Speaker 1: Katiecuric dot com. Now more from Renee and Francis. You
Speaker 1: mentioned that you sang before you spoke, but that's really
Speaker 1: true of our species, that a lot of humans sang
Speaker 1: before they spoke. Can you explain that to.
Speaker 2: Me, well, we don't, you know, we can't know what happened. Then,
Speaker 2: you know, researchers are looking at animals now and birds
Speaker 2: and dogs and horses and to kind of try and
Speaker 2: piece together what our evolution was artistically. But it makes
Speaker 2: kind of a lot of sense that in order to survive, humans,
Speaker 2: you know, could make vocal sounds that would be like
Speaker 2: the animals they were hunting, so birds or whatever creatures
Speaker 2: they were, and then eventually speech didn't develop until much
Speaker 2: much later.
Speaker 1: Oh how interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know, it's just it's really fascinating when
Speaker 2: you think about that. In fact, there's a language I
Speaker 2: just learned. I just came back from India and there's
Speaker 2: a language there that they couldn't really decipher. It's done
Speaker 2: enchanting by these by monks. And finally realized they said,
Speaker 2: we believe that these songs predate speech. Wow, so people
Speaker 2: are still singing them. It's so interesting.
Speaker 1: That is interesting. You also point out that women suffering
Speaker 1: from postpartum depression can benefit from singing an acchoir. Help
Speaker 1: me understand that, Renee.
Speaker 2: So, you know, it surprised me. This is relatively new research.
Speaker 2: But the World Health Organization is beginning to have tremendous
Speaker 2: success by taking some of these findings to countries where
Speaker 2: they are in a better position than we are to
Speaker 2: kind of embed them in healthcare right away. So, but
Speaker 2: it works. Singing an acquir somehow really improves the level
Speaker 2: of depression, the level of difficulty that women with postpartum
Speaker 2: depression are having, and singing an acquire has a lot
Speaker 2: of benefits in They just did a study that compared
Speaker 2: singing an acchoir was singing alone and singing an acquire
Speaker 2: had better health outcomes.
Speaker 1: Well, you can understand why, right, I mean, you have
Speaker 1: a sense of community, you have kind of working literally
Speaker 1: in harmony with others and feeling something greater than yourself.
Speaker 1: I mean it makes total sense.
Speaker 2: Right, totally, And and it strengthens immunity too. They found
Speaker 2: but our brain waves align when we're in a shared
Speaker 2: artistic experience, and that's meaningful, that's powerful, and that's definitely evolution.
Speaker 1: And that's also a huge argument to keep performing arts
Speaker 1: programs in schools across the country right especially at a
Speaker 1: time when young people are experiencing unprecedented anxiety and depression
Speaker 1: and stress. I think maybe educators will understand how important
Speaker 1: the arts are to your overall educational experience, right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, the art should stay in schools for a couple
Speaker 2: of reasons. One is that it's good for you. It
Speaker 2: helps kids with identity, with figuring out who they are.
Speaker 2: They can be more creative as a result. But one
Speaker 2: of the main purposes is truancy is becoming a tremendous problem,
Speaker 2: especially in urban centers around the country, and an artistic
Speaker 2: pursuit can keep kids in school, so that's major. One
Speaker 2: of the things I would really like to see happen
Speaker 2: is for creative arts therapists to be embedded in schools
Speaker 2: to help with pro social behaviors and the kinds of
Speaker 2: things we're talking about, but also to kind of give
Speaker 2: morale to everybody, and they can work alongside arts educators too.
Speaker 1: You talk about your hope for reimagining performing arts venues
Speaker 1: in order to serve the public in a very different
Speaker 1: way too outside of schools. What is your vision for
Speaker 1: that renee.
Speaker 2: Well, there was a study done by Opera America that
Speaker 2: interested me because it said that what people want is
Speaker 2: to be together with their friends and families. That's why
Speaker 2: they go to performances. They want to be seated and
Speaker 2: the round. They want to be able to order drinks,
Speaker 2: and so let's make it social, but let's make it
Speaker 2: also a place where we exchange ideas together. So in
Speaker 2: a way, I could envision performing arts centers becoming community centers.
Speaker 1: That would be wonderful, and I think we need it
Speaker 1: more than ever. I think everyone's looking for experiences, right,
Speaker 1: and sort of these experiential opera tunities, I think, certainly
Speaker 1: after the pandemic, when you're all together with people sharing something.
Speaker 1: And honestly, I think part of the problem with polarization
Speaker 1: in this country, Renee, is that we all are in
Speaker 1: our little silos, and this whole feeling of even the
Speaker 1: nation or a big section of the population seeing something
Speaker 1: at once at the same time and enjoying it has
Speaker 1: become few and far between. I think that's why sports
Speaker 1: are so popular, absolutely.
Speaker 2: I mean sports definitely does that, and performing arts can
Speaker 2: do it as well. But this loneliness and isolation are
Speaker 2: at an all time high, and it's a worldwide problem.
Speaker 2: Doctor Ted Drosid the World Health Organization told me he's
Speaker 2: incredibly concerned because depression is up thirty percent in the
Speaker 2: world and part of it is this isolation. So I
Speaker 2: you know, the people in the US are not going
Speaker 2: to performances as much as they did be for the
Speaker 2: pandemic for a number of reasons.
Speaker 1: And they're not going to church in places like that
Speaker 1: where you have that sense of community either and music,
Speaker 1: by the way.
Speaker 2: Well, and I would tell them this is not good
Speaker 2: for your health. You folks have to get out, get
Speaker 2: out and be with other people. So science and tells
Speaker 2: us now that it's really important we are social creatures.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I tried to pitch a documentary in twenty
Speaker 1: eighteen prior to the pandemic, and I've interviewed Vivek Murphy
Speaker 1: many times and nobody was interested. But now maybe with
Speaker 1: these huge numbers, people might reconsider they thought it was
Speaker 1: too much of a downer. I'm like, okay, whatever. Anyway,
Speaker 1: let's go back to your book, Renee, because I just
Speaker 1: want to finish up by asking you how you were
Speaker 1: able to assemble such an incredible group of artists and scientists.
Speaker 1: It includes essays written by everyone from Yo Yo Ma
Speaker 1: to architect Liz Diller to scientists from MIT and Johns Hopkins.
Speaker 1: How did you in the world, Renee, by the way,
Speaker 1: with your day job? How did you assemble all these
Speaker 1: experts and say, can you contribute to this book.
Speaker 2: Well, I was trying to show the breadth of the
Speaker 2: field as it currently exists and talk about the future
Speaker 2: the pillars. Also, childhood development is a major pillar, and
Speaker 2: I just asked, you know, I just asked repeatedly. It
Speaker 2: took a long time to pull this together. And it's
Speaker 2: a good reference also for people who kind of just
Speaker 2: want to maybe they want to just go to one
Speaker 2: specific section, but there are chapters that make people cry.
Speaker 2: They're very surprised. There were two young men who saw
Speaker 2: a need in their communities and they created initiatives that
Speaker 2: are booming now, one in Philadelphia and one in New
Speaker 2: York City. There's Roseanne Cash's chapter kills Me. I mean
Speaker 2: what she went through with a wrongly diagnosed brain disorder
Speaker 2: called kiari one and she and her recovery from that
Speaker 2: as a musician. It's heroing. And you have you know,
Speaker 2: Esperanza Spaulding and Rhianna Giittons and really interesting artists, writers
Speaker 2: Richard Powers and and patch it so's I wanted it
Speaker 2: to really be expansive.
Speaker 1: Well, it's incredible what you've put together, Renee, And I'm
Speaker 1: just so I mean, I'm not in a position to
Speaker 1: be proud of you, but I'm so impressed by your
Speaker 1: commitment to something because you know, obviously you want to
Speaker 1: contribute more to the world than just your beautiful singing
Speaker 1: voice and your artistic prowess, and you know it's time consuming.
Speaker 1: How were you able to do it and to really
Speaker 1: really spend so much time? You're clearly intellectually curious.
Speaker 2: So yes, yes, well, you know, I have wonderful Chasin
Speaker 2: and Paul in my office, and I couldn't have done
Speaker 2: it without Jason because he was the nuts and bolts,
Speaker 2: gathering everything. What I didn't know about writing this book
Speaker 2: because I had already written a book called The Inner Voice.
Speaker 2: Was that an anthology? All the way falls to us
Speaker 2: to me, So I really had to have help, no question.
Speaker 2: But we did get it done, and I think it's beautiful.
Speaker 2: I would also point to my friend's book Your Brain
Speaker 2: on Art that was a bestseller last year for people
Speaker 2: who like a broader kind of artistic experience. The neuroscience
Speaker 2: book is fascinating and I'm working closely with them. Anyway,
Speaker 2: I just announced we're about to announce scholars so I'm
Speaker 2: funding now put your money where your mouth is right.
Speaker 2: Grants for young scientists who partner with an artist.
Speaker 1: That is awesome.
Speaker 2: They're amazing.
Speaker 1: Well, wow, that's exciting. Well, you've given so much to
Speaker 1: the world. It was so wonderful to see you as
Speaker 1: a Kennedy Center honoree. So well deserved, and I know
Speaker 1: that that was such a thrill. I wasn't there, but
Speaker 1: I got to watch it, and what an incredible experience.
Speaker 1: And I can't think of anyone more deserving. The book
Speaker 1: that you've got out now is called Music Harnessing the
Speaker 1: Arts for Health and Wellness. Renee, so great to see you.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking to me about all
Speaker 1: your important work, because I think it's going to solve
Speaker 1: a lot of problems if people actually implement some of
Speaker 1: the ideas that are put forth in this book.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie. I really appreciate your time and attention
Speaker 2: to this. Thank you. I believe you and I agree.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six
Speaker 1: oh nine five point two five to five oh five,
Speaker 1: or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. Next Question is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers
Speaker 1: are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervisor producer
Speaker 1: is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and
Speaker 1: Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more
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