WEBVTT - Your Brain on Music, with Renee Fleming and Francis Collins 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:02.920 Life can be a lot, and it helps to have 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:06.440 a therapist by your side. Register at talkspace dot com 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:10.320 to connect with a licensed therapist within days for virtual support. 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:15.280 Talkspace is a network with major insurers no insurance. Now 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:17.919 get eighty five dollars off of your first month with 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.800 promo code Katie when you go to talkspace dot com 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:32.080 slash Katiecuric. Hi everyone, I'm Katiekuric and this is next question. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.280 That was the incomparable Renee Fleming. You know, once when 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.240 I was walking near Lincoln Center a few years ago, 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.520 some tourists stopped and said, I just love you, Renee, 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.559 and I was like what. Then I realized she thought 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.720 I was Renee Fleming, which was such a compliment, even 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:42.600 though I can't really sing and certainly not like Renee Flemy. 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.920 It may surprise you all to learn that Renee has 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:54.320 long suffered from anxiety and even physical pain as a 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:59.160 result of crippling stage fright. That got her wondering why 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.160 is this happening? She became obsessed by the mind body 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:07.840 connection and has spent years exploring the topic. Along the way, 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.600 she met doctor Francis Collins, who shared her curiosity and 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.120 love of music. The former director of the National Institutes 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:20.200 of Health, is an avid guitarist and bluegrass junkie. Their 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.760 relationship was a match made in research heaven. In fact, 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:28.000 Francis wrote the forward of Renee's new book called Music 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:32.440 and Mind, Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness. I 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.519 recently had an opportunity to speak with both of them. 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.880 So here's our conversation about your brain on music. 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:08.480 Hi, Renee, how are you? 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.559 I am great. You know, I'm such a fan and 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.720 I feel like we've become friends in recent years, which 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.120 has been a real highlight for me. And before I 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:24.680 talk about your incredible book and your extraordinary work, by 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.480 the way, I want listeners to know a little more 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.720 about your background. We recently had a cup of coffee 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:34.000 and I was embarrassed to say I didn't know as 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:39.960 much about your childhood as I should have. And your parents, Renee, 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:43.800 were both music teachers. Is that where you got your gift? 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:46.880 Well, I would say that's where I had no choice, 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.520 because you know, we just lived and breathed music starting 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:54.320 from a very early age. In fact, you know, I 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:56.480 was told that I sang before I spoke. I was 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:00.360 a very late speaker, and that's probably true, you know, 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.280 and we you know, we were kind of taking road 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.120 trips and singing the road signs in harmony, and I 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.640 thought everyone did that. I thought that was just normal, 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:09.560 and then I just kept up with it. And I 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.400 think that, you know, some of the early learning is 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.440 really helpful because music is a language, and so it 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.400 becomes one of the languages that you speak as a child. 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.800 Did your parents have extraordinary voices like you? And what 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.120 about your siblings? And if not, were they pissed that 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:27.320 you did and they didn't? 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.040 Now everybody, you know, there's so many There were so 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.440 many great voices out there. It's just but finding your 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.520 way to a high level career and singing is another 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.440 whole thing. You know. They say the voice is ten percent. 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:43.960 And my parents were wonderful teachers and musicians and fat 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:45.920 my father's still alive. Actually, what did. 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:47.680 Your dad play and what did your mom play? 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:48.440 Well? 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.560 They were both singers, Oh, both singers. Yeah, they were 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:56.200 both singers, and they both played keyboard to some extent. 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:01.240 My sister teaches very high level goji for non classical 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:05.640 singers at Temple University, so she's producing the next generation 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:10.560 at Broadway stars, and my brother sings at a rock band, 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.360 but he teaches technology in middle school in Newer Shelles, 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.799 so we're all. Everybody's an educator. My other little brother, 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:21.760 actually my little brother sings in the Houston Grand Opera Chorus, 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:23.320 so he is a professional singer. 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.240 Wow. So you all obviously were bitten by the bug. 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:31.640 And if you aren't directly involved with music your music adjacent. 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:32.720 Yes, definitely. 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:35.920 Well, I think it might surprise a lot of people 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.960 Renee that you don't consider yourself a natural performer. And 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.840 you experienced some intense stage fright when you were a 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.040 teenager and a little bit later in your life when 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.320 I think you were just dealing with a lot of 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:54.120 pressure and stress, So that I understand led you to 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:58.480 be interested in the mind body connection. Can you talk 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:00.880 about how that happened and why? 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:02.040 Absolutely? 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:02.280 So. 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.599 Yeah, the pressure for performance in our field is really high. 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.719 We are we are literally reviewed in the newspaper the 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.680 day after we perform almost every time, and certainly for 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:16.919 most of my career that was, and the and the 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:21.839 standards and the by which we are judged were very high. 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.039 So it's not easy to be us. And and add 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.400 to that that it's a tightrope that the fact that 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:31.920 we're singing virtuosic music alone on stage without a microphone, 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.840 so there's no nobody's adding to the sound or making 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:41.240 it more beautiful or adding auto tune, very naked on stage, 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.320 and so that that produced not only stage right, but 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.599 I had sematic pain, which is a kind of a 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:53.520 psychosomatic pain, which nearly derailed my career a couple of times. 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.120 When did those moments surface, Because it's interesting if you 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.000 think about what was going on in your life right Renee, 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.960 first as a teenager and later I know, when you 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.760 had your two children and your marriage was falling. 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:10.040 Apart absolutely, And you know, first of all, the stage 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.600 right started in middle school, started at a very young 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.920 age because I was incredibly shy. I was a bookworm, 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.840 so I did not have an ounce of natural performer 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:21.600 in me and I had to learn it had I 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:25.440 learned it literally by by observing my friends who for 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.680 whom it was easy. And you know, Juilliard at Eastman 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.960 and when I studied abroad, so I picked those skills 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:35.800 up kind of. But yeah, when you have life stressors, 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.600 then everything falls apart, and in my case, I think 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.920 it was the stage right, served as a kind of 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.880 a hedge against the pressure but also against not making 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.760 life changes that I needed to make. And you know, 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.400 I feel lucky that I got the right support and 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.000 I was able to get through it without stopping, because 0:07:56.040 --> 0:08:00.120 we know very famous people who have stopped performing and 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.280 sometimes they don't go back for twenty years. 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.680 You say there were a lot of factors RENEE involved 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:10.120 in your I guess maybe panic attack or discomfort on stage, 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:15.240 and you say one was a deep seated discomfort with success. 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.480 Now I've never heard of that, but when I thought 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.920 about it, you're right, you right. We can all point 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.880 to celebrities or politicians who have sabotaged their careers with 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.680 drug and alcohol abuse or other poor choices. Part of 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.120 the problem is that you're being taken far from your 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.559 roots and comfort zone, maybe to a level of success 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:40.360 that's far beyond your friends and family, and that's uncomfortable. 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:44.200 Right, Exactly. It's really kind of intuitive when one thinks 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.960 about it, that, yeah, what causes people to burn up 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:52.319 their lives when they're really achieving greatness, And in many 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.000 cases it is definitely that you've come too far from 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:59.640 your comfort zone as a human being. From your comfort zone. 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.440 Is you know how you grew up et cetera, or 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:07.120 you weren't prepared to succeed and to excel somehow you 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.199 know you were made to believe on some it's always 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.719 a subconscious level. It's never conscious, right that you know 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:15.400 something bad would happen if you did really well? 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.200 How did you fix it? How did you deal with 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:22.120 it those times where you have this crippling anxiety and fear. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.040 Well, there are two ways. One is to understand the 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.040 root so that that take that's therapy, and the other 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:32.439 are behavioral therapy, so you know, rekind of tuning or 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.720 thinking about performing. I had to stop seeing the audience 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.080 as judgmental, you know, I imagine everyone had a scorecard 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.920 and they were not well intentioned, right, And so once 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.079 I turned it around and it was a book by 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.679 barely sales on public speaking, I was able to see 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.360 myself as a conduit for something beautiful that I was 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:57.120 sharing giving to the audience. So I reversed the direction 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:01.000 of the experience of performing, and it it helped immensely. 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.480 I think all of us, at one time or another 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:08.840 have felt dramatically moved by a piece of music or art. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:15.320 It's so interesting when something hits you, it's almost all 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:20.240 of your senses are swept away. I've had that experience. 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:24.240 I'm sure probably hearing you sing Renee, but you know, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.120 many many times. So talk about this feeling for people 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.960 listening and are trying to understand the real neurological connection 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:38.160 that's going on between music and your entire being. 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.000 Well, it's very much embedded in our DNA, and it's 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.400 been with us since before we spoke, I mean really 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:50.360 the beginning of humans, and it's incredibly powerful. From my 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.920 perspective on stage, it's a flow state. I'm in the 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:58.400 zone when I'm performing. It induces feelings of awe and 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.240 awe has now by sciences been proven to be something 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:05.320 incredibly beneficial. But what's wonderful about it in terms of 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.360 the fact that it's so much a part of our lives. 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:13.760 Any aesthetic experience, whether it's being in nature or seeing 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:17.520 visual art, or just looking at design and architecture, has 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.440 a huge effect on our biology. Really down to the 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.600 cellular level. It's the elephant in the room. As my 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.719 friends who's a maximmon says, it is something that we 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.440 take for granted and we don't really understand how powerful 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.760 it is. And now the fact that science is looking 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:37.360 at it, is researching it, is looking at the brain 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.520 when we're having these experiences is teaching us a lot. 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.520 Let's talk about your book because it really stems from 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:47.120 a conversation with Francis Collins, who is head of the 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:52.360 NIH in twenty fifteen. He's also an amateur musician. So 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.840 tell us about that meeting and how it led to 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.360 your commitment to this work, because Renee, I mean, you've 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.720 really gone there. You have dug deep into this topic. 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:04.319 Tell us about that initial meeting. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.160 So we were at this really interesting dinner party because 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.240 it was the day after the marriage equality decision by 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:11.120 the Supreme Court. 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:13.640 Francis also remembers this dinner. 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.200 It was very remarkable and the kind of thing that 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.679 you can't imagine could have really happened, but it did. So, yeah, 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.200 it was nine years ago. It was like this summer 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.560 of twenty fifteen. There was a dinner party for thirty 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:30.080 or forty people at an exclusive and outside of Washington, 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.960 d C. And my wife and I were invited, and 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:36.160 amongst the nvites were three Supreme Court. 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:42.640 Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg Antonin Scalia and Kennedy were all there. Wow, 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:44.960 it was tense. It was tense, and I was seated 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.160 between RBG and Scalia because they're both. 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.559 Oh god, although they're very good friends, are they were 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:51.440 very good friends? 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.720 Yes, but this was tough. You know, his rebuttal was 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.160 really scathing, et cetera. 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:03.000 And they had just the day before their decision about 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.960 a gay marriage. And let's just say, some of the 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:11.440 opinions there were pretty strongly worked it. Stealia and Gettensburg 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.480 were on different sides of this, and Kennedy was sort 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.920 of the tiebreaker. So everything was a little tense, ah 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.880 during the dinner, and then we went outside after It's 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.800 a lovely summer evening and there was a bluegrass band 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:27.840 that had been hired to come and play a few 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:32.080 tunes to hopefully lighten the occasion. And the organizers knew 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.640 that I'm a bit of a bluegrass fan and told 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.000 we will bring your guitar and maybe you could join in, 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:41.200 So of course I did. How fun, Yeah, it might 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.800 surprise people that I would actually know the tunes like 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:48.120 Soldiers Joy and Red Wing, but it was easy to 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.240 jump in. But still it was not quite clicking. You 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.080 could sort of feel the group had not really come 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:59.320 together at that point. And then this incredibly stunning woman 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.679 I'd never met before I came up to the band 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:05.720 and said, you know, maybe we ought to get everybody 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.360 to sing. Maybe that would help sort of bring us 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.280 all together. And I gradually realized, oh my god, this 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:12.920 is Renee. 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:17.200 Let me and you all became fast friends that night, 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:18.560 didn't she did. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.440 I was initially terrified that she would want to sing opera, 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.960 which was not in my repertory, but that much Renee 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:29.400 knows music from every possible genre and was immediately comfortable 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.000 with jumping in with folk songs like the Water Is 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:36.160 Wide and Shenandoah and within you know, a song or two. 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:41.040 Pretty much everybody stopped looking glom and tense and joined 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.160 in and began to sing with us, including Scalia, singing lustily, 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.160 raising his brandy glass and his cigar. And something really 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.440 happened there. It was a perfect example of how music, 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.920 down through probably hundreds of thousands of years, has brought 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:00.800 people together at a time where or maybe they weren't 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.440 feeling so friendly to each other. Music behinds us, music 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.160 inspires us. It happened that evening It's happened lots of 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:11.440 other jobs before and since, and that was pretty impressive. 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.360 And so after all of this, al Renee said, you know, 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:19.360 I'm about to start a special year at the Kennedy 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:21.400 Center where I'm supposed to be an advisor, and I'm 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.560 kind of looking for a project to throw myself into. 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.000 Got the ideas, and so he said, we have a 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.040 new Brain and institute. We want to understand it's an initiative. 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.760 We want to understand this incredibly complex organ the most 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:39.040 complex thing in the universe, really, and so music is 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:40.680 one of the ways that we can do that. So 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.320 now they've funded since we started our project, which is 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:48.400 Sound Health with the NEA the Kennedy Center. I'm an 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:49.280 advisor there. 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.080 I know, and you did a nineteen part series. I 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.480 was watching some of them last night. I mean, that 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:56.560 was a huge commitment. I think you did it during 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.720 the pandemic. But you did a whole series of webinars 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:05.360 really on every aspect of music and the brain, which 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.560 I guess in some ways laid the framework for the book. Right. 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.560 Well, it certainly did, I mean, and Vivic Morti is 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.880 now our Surgeon General, has really become a champion for 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.240 this work. As well, and the NIH has spent thirty 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.640 million dollars funding music research. I mean, nobody would have 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:23.560 predicted that when I met him. 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:28.000 This summer. Just in about a month is the major 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:32.320 symposium of the Brain Initiative, which NIH has been supporting 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.480 now for seven years, started by President Obama in the 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.640 way back then, and which has now hundreds and hundreds 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.840 of scientists working on it, people with expertise and neuroscience 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.800 but also in robotics and engineering and everything you could 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.720 think of. And there's going to be all symposium at 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.840 that meeting about music and how it's going to teach 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.240 us things about how the basic science of the brain works, 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.640 but also teach us how to be even more effective 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.480 in this non pharmacological of providing healing to people who 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.800 are suffering. And everybody kind of wants to see that 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.560 happen too, So we're getting the momentum. The will woo 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:11.359 reaction seems to be fading as people are more and 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.080 more like, oh, maybe there's something useful to here. 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.880 When we come back. Renee illuminates the powerful connection between 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:24.119 music and memory, and I remember listening to Frank Sinatra 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:25.960 in my family's basement. 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.040 Thank everyone needs. 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:33.520 Someone to talk to and text with about life's challenges. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.840 And while girlfriends are great listeners, there are limits to 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.959 your group chat. A Talkspace therapist will give you an 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:45.280 objective perspective and professional guidance. Register at talkspace dot com 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.320 to connect with the licensed therapist within days and you 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.360 can start messaging back and forth and also schedule live 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:55.879 video or audio sessions. Talkspace is in network with major 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:59.960 insurers and copays are usually twenty five dollars or less 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.520 no insurance. Now get eighty five dollars off of your 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.560 first month with promo code Katie when you go to 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:11.480 talkspace dot com slash Katiekuric. Match with a licensed therapist 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:21.720 at talkspace dot com slash Katie Curic. We're back with 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:27.359 Renee Fleming and doctor Francis Collins. Is a lot of 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:31.639 this about memory, so it's interesting. My friend Peter Sincottie, 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:33.840 I don't know if you know Peter. He's a great 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:38.360 jazz pianist and vocalist. And I told him that I 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.960 had a song that I thought he should perform and record, 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.600 and I'm going to play it for you because I 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.320 just love this song. I love the words I love 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:50.320 everything about it. 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:56.040 Here's to those who love not to wisely, No, not wisely, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:00.879 but too well. To the girl who's song eyes with 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:06.680 envy when she hears that wedding bow. To the guy 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:12.879 who throw party if he knew someone to call. Here's 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:17.040 to the loser, bless. 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.600 Renee. I used to listen to that song in my basement. 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.760 My dad had an album Frank Sinatra. It was the 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.800 Capitol Records Years, and I absolutely love that song. So 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.840 when Peter sent that to me, I just had a 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:36.440 rush of memories. First of all, I loved the words, 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:40.280 I love the tune. I love everything about this song, 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:42.119 and it's kind of an obscure. I was going to 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.480 look up who wrote it, but Frank Sinatra recorded it 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.480 with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra, and I want It made 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:53.359 me wonder how much of our attraction and being swept 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:55.760 away and for us to be in a certain flow 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.920 has to do with memory and experiences. 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:06.000 Well, memory is incredibly powerful and very much connected to music. 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.000 So that's why, for instance, a couple of things. One 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.560 is that if you hear a song, you're taken back 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.720 to your wedding or your high school graduation or whatever. 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.879 Formative experiences you've had, and it's immediate, you know, and 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.000 the nervous system and also the brain. It's so much 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.639 about the brain. But basically, and you can switch, you 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:26.119 can go back, you can hear the next song and 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.000 it will take you to a different memory. So it's 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:33.240 really it's incredibly powerful. But what we're discovering for Alzheimer's patients, 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.040 which is something everyone is afraid of now talking all 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.600 over the country, and that's the leading I would say 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:47.000 subject around which people have anxiety. But memories are very 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:50.240 much connected to our experience. So that's one of them. 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.800 That's one of I would say the most powerful courses 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:54.679 of research right now. 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:59.399 Pain is another, So Francis, music can actually ease physical pain. 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:04.680 I'll give you our own little personal example. Just ten 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:07.800 days ago, I was in the hospital after a major surgery. 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.159 I was having a pretty bad time in the postop phase, 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.920 and I really didn't want to indulge in a lot 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.000 of narcotics to try to handle the pain. So instead 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.280 I decided, Okay, I'm going to take my own medicine here. 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.480 Let's see if we can use music therapy to get 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:27.200 me through a tough couple of days. And after doing 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:31.400 a lot of listening to James Taylor and a lot 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:32.480 of Alison Krause. 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:34.120 I love Alison Krause. 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:36.960 Oh my god. Yes, And this one may seem odd 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:40.119 to you, but I'm also a fan of a really 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:44.040 wonderful pipe organ performance. So I pulled up a lot 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:48.320 on YouTube all the amazing pipe organ performances of bach 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.560 preludes and fugues being played on organ c in Europe 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:55.800 that are just amazing, and I got lost in all 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:58.160 of that and sort of the pain it was still there. 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:01.120 I knew it was there, but it wasn't near is intrusive. 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.399 I was kind of getting the benefit of this. Well, 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.119 that was a short term couple of days, but certainly 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:08.919 for people with chronic pain that doesn't go away. The 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.240 benefits also are becoming more and more clear. And NIH 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.960 has a big program right now investing in rigorous studies 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.520 of this to try to see what are the nuances 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:21.520 that lead to a better outcome, because again, right now 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:23.840 it's a little empirical, and maybe there's a way we 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:26.440 could be even more effective if we understood it. 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:29.879 It's interesting because you know Dan Levitton, who does a 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.919 neuromapping really in the chapter that he writes for my 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.919 book talks exactly about where this all lives in the 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.399 brain and how it works and how it's tied together. 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:42.240 But the reason the NIH is studying music is because 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:47.000 music is in every known part of the mapped brain today, 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.520 and that's incredibly powerful. There are almost no other activities 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:54.879 that are that widespread in the brain. And part of 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:58.399 it is the complexity of engaging with music. You know, 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.280 it's hearing, it's rhythm, so it's you know, movement. Also, 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:06.639 it's memory, it's language because we're we're often thinking about 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.080 words to go with these things. You know, it's just 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:13.200 a very complex activity. And if you're making music, it's 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:13.919 triply so. 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:18.600 And I know that when they mapped your brain singing renee, 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:22.960 it showed areas of your brain lighting up that don't 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:25.240 light up when you're speaking. 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:29.159 Right, correct. And what was surprise the scientists in my 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:32.360 fMRI study. I was in that machine for two hours, 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.879 my goodness, and you were singing away, yeah, singing away 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:38.840 like you know many you know, many repetitions. But what 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.479 surprised them was that imagining singing was more powerful than 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:47.440 the other two. Really, and speaking or singing, Wow, that's crazy. 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.240 So just thinking of songs, and does the thing go 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:57.440 for people who can't sing or who prefer listening over singing. 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:00.440 Maybe not. Maybe singing for them would be more more 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:04.399 kind of almost traumatic to have to sing in an 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.399 MRI machine, So that might have been more active, you know, 0:24:07.600 --> 0:24:10.199 they said to They actually did sort of surmise that 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:13.160 because I'm a singer, it's a bit second nature, right right, 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:16.919 But while imagining, I had to tune out the noise 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:20.280 of the fMRI, of the MRI, I had to focus, 0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:21.879 et cetera. So it was a little different. 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:26.800 That's interesting. So, but the same benefits of singing again 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:30.640 for people who are not blessed with your amazing voice. 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.080 I mean, it doesn't keep me from singing just because 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:35.760 I can't sing like you, Renee. But what about people 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:38.640 who are just listening to music? Can you talk about 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:40.480 what that does to the brain. 0:24:40.760 --> 0:24:43.120 Well, first of all, you're a pianist, so you are 0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:46.240