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Speaker 1: slash Katiecuric. Hi everyone, I'm Katiekuric and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: That was the incomparable Renee Fleming. You know, once when

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Speaker 1: I was walking near Lincoln Center a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: some tourists stopped and said, I just love you, Renee,

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Speaker 1: and I was like what. Then I realized she thought

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Speaker 1: I was Renee Fleming, which was such a compliment, even

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Speaker 1: though I can't really sing and certainly not like Renee Flemy.

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Speaker 1: It may surprise you all to learn that Renee has

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Speaker 1: long suffered from anxiety and even physical pain as a

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Speaker 1: result of crippling stage fright. That got her wondering why

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Speaker 1: is this happening? She became obsessed by the mind body

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Speaker 1: connection and has spent years exploring the topic. Along the way,

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Speaker 1: she met doctor Francis Collins, who shared her curiosity and

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Speaker 1: love of music. The former director of the National Institutes

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Speaker 1: of Health, is an avid guitarist and bluegrass junkie. Their

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Speaker 1: relationship was a match made in research heaven. In fact,

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Speaker 1: Francis wrote the forward of Renee's new book called Music

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Speaker 1: and Mind, Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness. I

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Speaker 1: recently had an opportunity to speak with both of them.

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Speaker 1: So here's our conversation about your brain on music.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Renee, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I am great. You know, I'm such a fan and

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Speaker 1: I feel like we've become friends in recent years, which

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Speaker 1: has been a real highlight for me. And before I

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Speaker 1: talk about your incredible book and your extraordinary work, by

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Speaker 1: the way, I want listeners to know a little more

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Speaker 1: about your background. We recently had a cup of coffee

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Speaker 1: and I was embarrassed to say I didn't know as

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Speaker 1: much about your childhood as I should have. And your parents, Renee,

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Speaker 1: were both music teachers. Is that where you got your gift?

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say that's where I had no choice,

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Speaker 2: because you know, we just lived and breathed music starting

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Speaker 2: from a very early age. In fact, you know, I

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Speaker 2: was told that I sang before I spoke. I was

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Speaker 2: a very late speaker, and that's probably true, you know,

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Speaker 2: and we you know, we were kind of taking road

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Speaker 2: trips and singing the road signs in harmony, and I

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Speaker 2: thought everyone did that. I thought that was just normal,

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Speaker 2: and then I just kept up with it. And I

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Speaker 2: think that, you know, some of the early learning is

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Speaker 2: really helpful because music is a language, and so it

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Speaker 2: becomes one of the languages that you speak as a child.

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Speaker 1: Did your parents have extraordinary voices like you? And what

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Speaker 1: about your siblings? And if not, were they pissed that

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Speaker 1: you did and they didn't?

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Speaker 2: Now everybody, you know, there's so many There were so

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Speaker 2: many great voices out there. It's just but finding your

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Speaker 2: way to a high level career and singing is another

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Speaker 2: whole thing. You know. They say the voice is ten percent.

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Speaker 2: And my parents were wonderful teachers and musicians and fat

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Speaker 2: my father's still alive. Actually, what did.

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Speaker 1: Your dad play and what did your mom play?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: They were both singers, Oh, both singers. Yeah, they were

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Speaker 2: both singers, and they both played keyboard to some extent.

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Speaker 2: My sister teaches very high level goji for non classical

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Speaker 2: singers at Temple University, so she's producing the next generation

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Speaker 2: at Broadway stars, and my brother sings at a rock band,

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Speaker 2: but he teaches technology in middle school in Newer Shelles,

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Speaker 2: so we're all. Everybody's an educator. My other little brother,

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Speaker 2: actually my little brother sings in the Houston Grand Opera Chorus,

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Speaker 2: so he is a professional singer.

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Speaker 1: Wow. So you all obviously were bitten by the bug.

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Speaker 1: And if you aren't directly involved with music your music adjacent.

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Speaker 2: Yes, definitely.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it might surprise a lot of people

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Speaker 1: Renee that you don't consider yourself a natural performer. And

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Speaker 1: you experienced some intense stage fright when you were a

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Speaker 1: teenager and a little bit later in your life when

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Speaker 1: I think you were just dealing with a lot of

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Speaker 1: pressure and stress, So that I understand led you to

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Speaker 1: be interested in the mind body connection. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: about how that happened and why?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the pressure for performance in our field is really high.

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Speaker 2: We are we are literally reviewed in the newspaper the

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Speaker 2: day after we perform almost every time, and certainly for

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Speaker 2: most of my career that was, and the and the

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Speaker 2: standards and the by which we are judged were very high.

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Speaker 2: So it's not easy to be us. And and add

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Speaker 2: to that that it's a tightrope that the fact that

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Speaker 2: we're singing virtuosic music alone on stage without a microphone,

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Speaker 2: so there's no nobody's adding to the sound or making

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Speaker 2: it more beautiful or adding auto tune, very naked on stage,

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Speaker 2: and so that that produced not only stage right, but

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Speaker 2: I had sematic pain, which is a kind of a

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Speaker 2: psychosomatic pain, which nearly derailed my career a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: When did those moments surface, Because it's interesting if you

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Speaker 1: think about what was going on in your life right Renee,

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Speaker 1: first as a teenager and later I know, when you

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Speaker 1: had your two children and your marriage was falling.

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Speaker 2: Apart absolutely, And you know, first of all, the stage

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Speaker 2: right started in middle school, started at a very young

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Speaker 2: age because I was incredibly shy. I was a bookworm,

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Speaker 2: so I did not have an ounce of natural performer

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Speaker 2: in me and I had to learn it had I

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Speaker 2: learned it literally by by observing my friends who for

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Speaker 2: whom it was easy. And you know, Juilliard at Eastman

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Speaker 2: and when I studied abroad, so I picked those skills

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Speaker 2: up kind of. But yeah, when you have life stressors,

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Speaker 2: then everything falls apart, and in my case, I think

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Speaker 2: it was the stage right, served as a kind of

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Speaker 2: a hedge against the pressure but also against not making

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Speaker 2: life changes that I needed to make. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I feel lucky that I got the right support and

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Speaker 2: I was able to get through it without stopping, because

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Speaker 2: we know very famous people who have stopped performing and

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Speaker 2: sometimes they don't go back for twenty years.

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Speaker 1: You say there were a lot of factors RENEE involved

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Speaker 1: in your I guess maybe panic attack or discomfort on stage,

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Speaker 1: and you say one was a deep seated discomfort with success.

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Speaker 1: Now I've never heard of that, but when I thought

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Speaker 1: about it, you're right, you right. We can all point

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Speaker 1: to celebrities or politicians who have sabotaged their careers with

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Speaker 1: drug and alcohol abuse or other poor choices. Part of

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Speaker 1: the problem is that you're being taken far from your

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Speaker 1: roots and comfort zone, maybe to a level of success

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Speaker 1: that's far beyond your friends and family, and that's uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: Right, Exactly. It's really kind of intuitive when one thinks

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Speaker 2: about it, that, yeah, what causes people to burn up

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Speaker 2: their lives when they're really achieving greatness, And in many

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Speaker 2: cases it is definitely that you've come too far from

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Speaker 2: your comfort zone as a human being. From your comfort zone.

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Speaker 2: Is you know how you grew up et cetera, or

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Speaker 2: you weren't prepared to succeed and to excel somehow you

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Speaker 2: know you were made to believe on some it's always

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Speaker 2: a subconscious level. It's never conscious, right that you know

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Speaker 2: something bad would happen if you did really well?

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Speaker 1: How did you fix it? How did you deal with

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Speaker 1: it those times where you have this crippling anxiety and fear.

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Speaker 2: Well, there are two ways. One is to understand the

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Speaker 2: root so that that take that's therapy, and the other

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Speaker 2: are behavioral therapy, so you know, rekind of tuning or

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Speaker 2: thinking about performing. I had to stop seeing the audience

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Speaker 2: as judgmental, you know, I imagine everyone had a scorecard

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Speaker 2: and they were not well intentioned, right, And so once

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Speaker 2: I turned it around and it was a book by

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Speaker 2: barely sales on public speaking, I was able to see

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Speaker 2: myself as a conduit for something beautiful that I was

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Speaker 2: sharing giving to the audience. So I reversed the direction

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Speaker 2: of the experience of performing, and it it helped immensely.

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Speaker 1: I think all of us, at one time or another

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Speaker 1: have felt dramatically moved by a piece of music or art.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting when something hits you, it's almost all

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Speaker 1: of your senses are swept away. I've had that experience.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure probably hearing you sing Renee, but you know,

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Speaker 1: many many times. So talk about this feeling for people

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Speaker 1: listening and are trying to understand the real neurological connection

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Speaker 1: that's going on between music and your entire being.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's very much embedded in our DNA, and it's

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Speaker 2: been with us since before we spoke, I mean really

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Speaker 2: the beginning of humans, and it's incredibly powerful. From my

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Speaker 2: perspective on stage, it's a flow state. I'm in the

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Speaker 2: zone when I'm performing. It induces feelings of awe and

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Speaker 2: awe has now by sciences been proven to be something

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Speaker 2: incredibly beneficial. But what's wonderful about it in terms of

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Speaker 2: the fact that it's so much a part of our lives.

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Speaker 2: Any aesthetic experience, whether it's being in nature or seeing

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Speaker 2: visual art, or just looking at design and architecture, has

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Speaker 2: a huge effect on our biology. Really down to the

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Speaker 2: cellular level. It's the elephant in the room. As my

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Speaker 2: friends who's a maximmon says, it is something that we

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Speaker 2: take for granted and we don't really understand how powerful

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Speaker 2: it is. And now the fact that science is looking

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Speaker 2: at it, is researching it, is looking at the brain

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Speaker 2: when we're having these experiences is teaching us a lot.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about your book because it really stems from

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Speaker 1: a conversation with Francis Collins, who is head of the

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Speaker 1: NIH in twenty fifteen. He's also an amateur musician. So

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Speaker 1: tell us about that meeting and how it led to

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Speaker 1: your commitment to this work, because Renee, I mean, you've

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Speaker 1: really gone there. You have dug deep into this topic.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about that initial meeting.

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Speaker 2: So we were at this really interesting dinner party because

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Speaker 2: it was the day after the marriage equality decision by

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: Francis also remembers this dinner.

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Speaker 3: It was very remarkable and the kind of thing that

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Speaker 3: you can't imagine could have really happened, but it did. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was nine years ago. It was like this summer

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Speaker 3: of twenty fifteen. There was a dinner party for thirty

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Speaker 3: or forty people at an exclusive and outside of Washington,

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Speaker 3: d C. And my wife and I were invited, and

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Speaker 3: amongst the nvites were three Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg Antonin Scalia and Kennedy were all there. Wow,

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Speaker 2: it was tense. It was tense, and I was seated

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Speaker 2: between RBG and Scalia because they're both.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, although they're very good friends, are they were

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Speaker 1: very good friends?

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Speaker 2: Yes, but this was tough. You know, his rebuttal was

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Speaker 2: really scathing, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And they had just the day before their decision about

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Speaker 3: a gay marriage. And let's just say, some of the

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Speaker 3: opinions there were pretty strongly worked it. Stealia and Gettensburg

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Speaker 3: were on different sides of this, and Kennedy was sort

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Speaker 3: of the tiebreaker. So everything was a little tense, ah

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Speaker 3: during the dinner, and then we went outside after It's

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Speaker 3: a lovely summer evening and there was a bluegrass band

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Speaker 3: that had been hired to come and play a few

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Speaker 3: tunes to hopefully lighten the occasion. And the organizers knew

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Speaker 3: that I'm a bit of a bluegrass fan and told

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Speaker 3: we will bring your guitar and maybe you could join in,

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Speaker 3: So of course I did. How fun, Yeah, it might

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Speaker 3: surprise people that I would actually know the tunes like

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Speaker 3: Soldiers Joy and Red Wing, but it was easy to

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Speaker 3: jump in. But still it was not quite clicking. You

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Speaker 3: could sort of feel the group had not really come

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Speaker 3: together at that point. And then this incredibly stunning woman

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Speaker 3: I'd never met before I came up to the band

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Speaker 3: and said, you know, maybe we ought to get everybody

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Speaker 3: to sing. Maybe that would help sort of bring us

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Speaker 3: all together. And I gradually realized, oh my god, this

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Speaker 3: is Renee.

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Speaker 1: Let me and you all became fast friends that night,

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Speaker 1: didn't she did.

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Speaker 3: I was initially terrified that she would want to sing opera,

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Speaker 3: which was not in my repertory, but that much Renee

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Speaker 3: knows music from every possible genre and was immediately comfortable

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Speaker 3: with jumping in with folk songs like the Water Is

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Speaker 3: Wide and Shenandoah and within you know, a song or two.

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Speaker 3: Pretty much everybody stopped looking glom and tense and joined

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Speaker 3: in and began to sing with us, including Scalia, singing lustily,

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Speaker 3: raising his brandy glass and his cigar. And something really

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Speaker 3: happened there. It was a perfect example of how music,

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Speaker 3: down through probably hundreds of thousands of years, has brought

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Speaker 3: people together at a time where or maybe they weren't

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Speaker 3: feeling so friendly to each other. Music behinds us, music

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Speaker 3: inspires us. It happened that evening It's happened lots of

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Speaker 3: other jobs before and since, and that was pretty impressive.

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Speaker 3: And so after all of this, al Renee said, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm about to start a special year at the Kennedy

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Speaker 3: Center where I'm supposed to be an advisor, and I'm

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Speaker 3: kind of looking for a project to throw myself into.

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Speaker 2: Got the ideas, and so he said, we have a

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Speaker 2: new Brain and institute. We want to understand it's an initiative.

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Speaker 2: We want to understand this incredibly complex organ the most

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Speaker 2: complex thing in the universe, really, and so music is

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Speaker 2: one of the ways that we can do that. So

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Speaker 2: now they've funded since we started our project, which is

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Speaker 2: Sound Health with the NEA the Kennedy Center. I'm an

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Speaker 2: advisor there.

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Speaker 1: I know, and you did a nineteen part series. I

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Speaker 1: was watching some of them last night. I mean, that

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Speaker 1: was a huge commitment. I think you did it during

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. But you did a whole series of webinars

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Speaker 1: really on every aspect of music and the brain, which

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Speaker 1: I guess in some ways laid the framework for the book. Right.

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Speaker 2: Well, it certainly did, I mean, and Vivic Morti is

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Speaker 2: now our Surgeon General, has really become a champion for

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Speaker 2: this work. As well, and the NIH has spent thirty

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Speaker 2: million dollars funding music research. I mean, nobody would have

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Speaker 2: predicted that when I met him.

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Speaker 3: This summer. Just in about a month is the major

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Speaker 3: symposium of the Brain Initiative, which NIH has been supporting

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Speaker 3: now for seven years, started by President Obama in the

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Speaker 3: way back then, and which has now hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 3: of scientists working on it, people with expertise and neuroscience

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Speaker 3: but also in robotics and engineering and everything you could

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Speaker 3: think of. And there's going to be all symposium at

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Speaker 3: that meeting about music and how it's going to teach

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Speaker 3: us things about how the basic science of the brain works,

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Speaker 3: but also teach us how to be even more effective

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Speaker 3: in this non pharmacological of providing healing to people who

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Speaker 3: are suffering. And everybody kind of wants to see that

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Speaker 3: happen too, So we're getting the momentum. The will woo

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Speaker 3: reaction seems to be fading as people are more and

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Speaker 3: more like, oh, maybe there's something useful to here.

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Speaker 1: When we come back. Renee illuminates the powerful connection between

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Speaker 1: music and memory, and I remember listening to Frank Sinatra

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Speaker 1: in my family's basement.

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Speaker 2: Thank everyone needs.

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Speaker 1: Someone to talk to and text with about life's challenges.

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Speaker 1: And while girlfriends are great listeners, there are limits to

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Speaker 1: your group chat. A Talkspace therapist will give you an

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Speaker 1: objective perspective and professional guidance. Register at talkspace dot com

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Speaker 1: to connect with the licensed therapist within days and you

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Speaker 1: can start messaging back and forth and also schedule live

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Speaker 1: video or audio sessions. Talkspace is in network with major

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Speaker 1: insurers and copays are usually twenty five dollars or less

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Speaker 1: talkspace dot com slash Katiekuric. Match with a licensed therapist

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Speaker 1: at talkspace dot com slash Katie Curic. We're back with

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Speaker 1: Renee Fleming and doctor Francis Collins. Is a lot of

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Speaker 1: this about memory, so it's interesting. My friend Peter Sincottie,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know Peter. He's a great

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Speaker 1: jazz pianist and vocalist. And I told him that I

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Speaker 1: had a song that I thought he should perform and record,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to play it for you because I

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Speaker 1: just love this song. I love the words I love

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Speaker 1: everything about it.

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Speaker 4: Here's to those who love not to wisely, No, not wisely,

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Speaker 4: but too well. To the girl who's song eyes with

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Speaker 4: envy when she hears that wedding bow. To the guy

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Speaker 4: who throw party if he knew someone to call. Here's

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Speaker 4: to the loser, bless.

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Speaker 1: Renee. I used to listen to that song in my basement.

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Speaker 1: My dad had an album Frank Sinatra. It was the

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Speaker 1: Capitol Records Years, and I absolutely love that song. So

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Speaker 1: when Peter sent that to me, I just had a

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Speaker 1: rush of memories. First of all, I loved the words,

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Speaker 1: I love the tune. I love everything about this song,

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Speaker 1: and it's kind of an obscure. I was going to

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Speaker 1: look up who wrote it, but Frank Sinatra recorded it

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Speaker 1: with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra, and I want It made

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Speaker 1: me wonder how much of our attraction and being swept

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Speaker 1: away and for us to be in a certain flow

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Speaker 1: has to do with memory and experiences.

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Speaker 2: Well, memory is incredibly powerful and very much connected to music.

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Speaker 2: So that's why, for instance, a couple of things. One

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Speaker 2: is that if you hear a song, you're taken back

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Speaker 2: to your wedding or your high school graduation or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Formative experiences you've had, and it's immediate, you know, and

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Speaker 2: the nervous system and also the brain. It's so much

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Speaker 2: about the brain. But basically, and you can switch, you

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Speaker 2: can go back, you can hear the next song and

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Speaker 2: it will take you to a different memory. So it's

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Speaker 2: really it's incredibly powerful. But what we're discovering for Alzheimer's patients,

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Speaker 2: which is something everyone is afraid of now talking all

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Speaker 2: over the country, and that's the leading I would say

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Speaker 2: subject around which people have anxiety. But memories are very

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Speaker 2: much connected to our experience. So that's one of them.

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Speaker 2: That's one of I would say the most powerful courses

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Speaker 2: of research right now.

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Speaker 1: Pain is another, So Francis, music can actually ease physical pain.

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Speaker 3: I'll give you our own little personal example. Just ten

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Speaker 3: days ago, I was in the hospital after a major surgery.

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Speaker 3: I was having a pretty bad time in the postop phase,

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Speaker 3: and I really didn't want to indulge in a lot

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Speaker 3: of narcotics to try to handle the pain. So instead

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Speaker 3: I decided, Okay, I'm going to take my own medicine here.

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Speaker 3: Let's see if we can use music therapy to get

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Speaker 3: me through a tough couple of days. And after doing

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Speaker 3: a lot of listening to James Taylor and a lot

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Speaker 3: of Alison Krause.

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Speaker 1: I love Alison Krause.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god. Yes, And this one may seem odd

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Speaker 3: to you, but I'm also a fan of a really

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Speaker 3: wonderful pipe organ performance. So I pulled up a lot

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Speaker 3: on YouTube all the amazing pipe organ performances of bach

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Speaker 3: preludes and fugues being played on organ c in Europe

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Speaker 3: that are just amazing, and I got lost in all

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Speaker 3: of that and sort of the pain it was still there.

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Speaker 3: I knew it was there, but it wasn't near is intrusive.

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Speaker 3: I was kind of getting the benefit of this. Well,

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Speaker 3: that was a short term couple of days, but certainly

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Speaker 3: for people with chronic pain that doesn't go away. The

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Speaker 3: benefits also are becoming more and more clear. And NIH

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Speaker 3: has a big program right now investing in rigorous studies

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Speaker 3: of this to try to see what are the nuances

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Speaker 3: that lead to a better outcome, because again, right now

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Speaker 3: it's a little empirical, and maybe there's a way we

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Speaker 3: could be even more effective if we understood it.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because you know Dan Levitton, who does a

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Speaker 2: neuromapping really in the chapter that he writes for my

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Speaker 2: book talks exactly about where this all lives in the

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Speaker 2: brain and how it works and how it's tied together.

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Speaker 2: But the reason the NIH is studying music is because

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Speaker 2: music is in every known part of the mapped brain today,

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Speaker 2: and that's incredibly powerful. There are almost no other activities

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Speaker 2: that are that widespread in the brain. And part of

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Speaker 2: it is the complexity of engaging with music. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's hearing, it's rhythm, so it's you know, movement. Also,

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Speaker 2: it's memory, it's language because we're we're often thinking about

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Speaker 2: words to go with these things. You know, it's just

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Speaker 2: a very complex activity. And if you're making music, it's

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Speaker 2: triply so.

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Speaker 1: And I know that when they mapped your brain singing renee,

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Speaker 1: it showed areas of your brain lighting up that don't

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Speaker 1: light up when you're speaking.

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Speaker 2: Right, correct. And what was surprise the scientists in my

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Speaker 2: fMRI study. I was in that machine for two hours,

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Speaker 2: my goodness, and you were singing away, yeah, singing away

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Speaker 2: like you know many you know, many repetitions. But what

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Speaker 2: surprised them was that imagining singing was more powerful than

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Speaker 2: the other two. Really, and speaking or singing, Wow, that's crazy.

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Speaker 1: So just thinking of songs, and does the thing go

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Speaker 1: for people who can't sing or who prefer listening over singing.

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Speaker 2: Maybe not. Maybe singing for them would be more more

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Speaker 2: kind of almost traumatic to have to sing in an

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Speaker 2: MRI machine, So that might have been more active, you know,

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Speaker 2: they said to They actually did sort of surmise that

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Speaker 2: because I'm a singer, it's a bit second nature, right right,

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Speaker 2: But while imagining, I had to tune out the noise

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Speaker 2: of the fMRI, of the MRI, I had to focus,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. So it was a little different.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. So, but the same benefits of singing again

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Speaker 1: for people who are not blessed with your amazing voice.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't keep me from singing just because

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Speaker 1: I can't sing like you, Renee. But what about people

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Speaker 1: who are just listening to music? Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: what that does to the brain.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, you're a pianist, so you are

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Speaker 2: a musician, which is so fabulous that you had that training.

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Speaker 1: Well it's more, you know what's really weird, Renee, is

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Speaker 1: I play by ear now and I play mostly like

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Speaker 1: Irving Berlin in the key of C because it's hard

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Speaker 1: for me to play implicated like Billy Joel songs with

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Speaker 1: a lot of flats or sharps. But while I took

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Speaker 1: piano for ten years, when I sit down, I just

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Speaker 1: sound out music that I like and just play it.

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Speaker 1: And that's I don't know. I'm the only one in

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Speaker 1: my family who can do that, and I was hoping

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Speaker 1: my daughters would be able to play by ear, but

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Speaker 1: they can't either. Where does that come from?

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Speaker 2: First of all, I'm really jealous. You know. I had

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Speaker 2: the chance to take jazz harmony from a jazz musician

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Speaker 2: in graduate school, and I in exchange for voice lessons,

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Speaker 2: and I wish I had done it, because to be

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Speaker 2: able to play by ear. First of all, that's the

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Speaker 2: most relaxing thing you can do, I know, because it's

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Speaker 2: improvisation and you have to shut off the part of

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Speaker 2: your frontal lobe which judges you have to that has

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Speaker 2: to turn off for you to be able to do that,

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Speaker 2: which has got to be great for your health. And

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Speaker 2: so listening to music, what's fascinating about it is it's

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Speaker 2: been shown to be incredible beneficial for anxiety, for depression,

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Speaker 2: for pain. So it's really beneficial to listen to music,

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Speaker 2: and especially we do it anyway. We use playlists for

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Speaker 2: exercise or cooking or you know, walking.

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Speaker 1: So, but what is it renee that is there a

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Speaker 1: particular place in your brain it impacts, like for pain,

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Speaker 1: does it light up a part of your brain? And

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Speaker 1: then it sort of overcomes the part of your brain

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Speaker 1: that is having to deal with pain, Like how does

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Speaker 1: it work?

434
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: So it can be a distraction. It's releasing chemicals into

435
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 2: your brain and doorphins and these are feel good chemicals.

436
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: So it's it's it's incredibly helpful for our health to

437
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: do this, especially especially today today's stressors. This year is

438
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: going to be rough. We know that. So I've I've

439
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: actually become a poster child for neural arts and I'm

440
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 2: doing artistic things every day that I enjoy and getting

441
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: away from the news, very upsetting opinion news. I'm really

442
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: just not doing it this year. Yeah, so it's helping me,

443
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: but I can't tell you how much happier I am.

444
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 2: So and listening to music is one of those things.

445
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: So it's really about the release of chemicals in your

446
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 2: brain that makes this work. And then they also talk

447
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: about the fact that one of the things I don't

448
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: know if you ever you know, if you hurt yourself,

449
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: if you cut yourself and then you bump your knee, yeah,

450
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: the initial pain goes away because you're now distracted by

451
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: the new pain.

452
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: So right, Well, whenever I'm getting a shot or like botox, yeah,

453
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: once in a while, I will pinch my hand really

454
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: really hard, so I'm focused on the pain in my

455
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: hand instead of the pain in my forehead. Confessions here

456
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: on next question with Katie Couric.

457
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: Exactly, and also, you know, frankly, listening to music can

458
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: also work the same way. It is a distraction, but

459
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: more than that, it does something really positive.

460
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: You mentioned patients with Alzheimer's, and you and I have

461
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: talked about this as well. There was a documentary a

462
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 1: few years back. I wonder if it's available. I interviewed

463
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: the people behind it, and then there was like some

464
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: breaking news story so it never aired and they were crestfallen,

465
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: so I know. And it's called Alive Inside, and it

466
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: was about people giving elderly folks and nursing homes. I

467
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: guess at the time maybe iPods and earphones or whatever,

468
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: and how their personas completely changed when they heard music

469
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: that they knew and recognized and loved.

470
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: It. Can't get away from me if I'm in this place.

471
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: It takes food to my school. They Oh god, beautiful.

472
00:28:52,120 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: Does it make you happy to sing for us? That's

473
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: the memory piece Stan Cohen's film, It's Beautiful. It's on YouTube.

474
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: Is it okay? I highly recommend Alive Inside Everybody because

475
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: it's pretty extraordinary. And I learned so much from your book,

476
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: and I thought we could just talk about a few

477
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: of the points quickly. You write that hearing is I

478
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: knew this, by the way, when my dad was in

479
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: hospice and he was dying, and I was very, very

480
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: close to my dad. He was just an amazing person.

481
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: I brought a little speaker to the hospital room and

482
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: my phone and I played all his favorite songs. When

483
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: I used to play the piano, he'd yell down to

484
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: the basement, Katie, play as Time goes by, or I'll

485
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: be seeing you. And so I played all of these

486
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: wonderful songs that I knew he loved because I had

487
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: always heard that hearing was the last to go. But

488
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: tell me about why we haven't done more research on that.

489
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: Well, it's been hard to do the research on anything artistic.

490
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: So it's the brain imaging and it's the fact that

491
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: technology has really expanded that's allowing us now to see

492
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: all of this. So it's new. It's basically relatively new

493
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: because but technology makes it possible. So what's interesting about

494
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: that is my husband's aunt at the end of her

495
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: life didn't know anyone around her, didn't speak. I was there,

496
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: I saw this, But if you said I'm looking, she

497
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: would finish the whole song over for leave Clover exactly.

498
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: She would finish the song with words absolutely perfect. And

499
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: there are five or six songs that she would do

500
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: and I just sort of thought, this is actually joyful,

501
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: and you know, these were pieces from her childhood. But

502
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: she didn't open her eyes and she didn't know anyone.

503
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: So it is the last memory to go. Music memory,

504
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: and that's why researchers are using it to try and

505
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: extend that that moment of a liveness that you see

506
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: in the film. I mean, look at the Henry segments.

507
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: They're really powerful.

508
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: Francis. What music can do for these patients is really remarkable.

509
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 3: You know, on some of the more dramatic examples that

510
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 3: I have seen in terms of how music can help

511
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: in that situation where people who have had strokes that

512
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: affect the speech area of the brains, all called Broca's area.

513
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 3: Most people are locked in in a terribly frustrating way.

514
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 3: They know what they want to say, but they cannot

515
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 3: make the words come out. They can understand what people

516
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,239
Speaker 3: are saying to them, but they can't interact backwards. But

517
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 3: guess what if you ask them to sing of the

518
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: Happy Birthday song, they can do it, And once they

519
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 3: realize they can do it, then you can start to

520
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 3: retrain their communication ability by singing it instead of singing it.

521
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's also something important for people to know

522
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: that even talking to someone you may not think is

523
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: there is really important at the end of someone's life.

524
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: Did you know early humans sang before they spoke? Renee

525
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: explains right after this. If you want to get smarter

526
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating

527
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up

528
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: for our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to

529
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: Katiecuric dot com. Now more from Renee and Francis. You

530
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: mentioned that you sang before you spoke, but that's really

531
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: true of our species, that a lot of humans sang

532
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: before they spoke. Can you explain that to.

533
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: Me, well, we don't, you know, we can't know what happened. Then,

534
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: you know, researchers are looking at animals now and birds

535
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: and dogs and horses and to kind of try and

536
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: piece together what our evolution was artistically. But it makes

537
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: kind of a lot of sense that in order to survive, humans,

538
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: you know, could make vocal sounds that would be like

539
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: the animals they were hunting, so birds or whatever creatures

540
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: they were, and then eventually speech didn't develop until much

541
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: much later.

542
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: Oh how interesting.

543
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you know, it's just it's really fascinating when

544
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: you think about that. In fact, there's a language I

545
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: just learned. I just came back from India and there's

546
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: a language there that they couldn't really decipher. It's done

547
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 2: enchanting by these by monks. And finally realized they said,

548
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: we believe that these songs predate speech. Wow, so people

549
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 2: are still singing them. It's so interesting.

550
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: That is interesting. You also point out that women suffering

551
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: from postpartum depression can benefit from singing an acchoir. Help

552
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: me understand that, Renee.

553
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: So, you know, it surprised me. This is relatively new research.

554
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: But the World Health Organization is beginning to have tremendous

555
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: success by taking some of these findings to countries where

556
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 2: they are in a better position than we are to

557
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 2: kind of embed them in healthcare right away. So, but

558
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 2: it works. Singing an acquir somehow really improves the level

559
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 2: of depression, the level of difficulty that women with postpartum

560
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: depression are having, and singing an acquire has a lot

561
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 2: of benefits in They just did a study that compared

562
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 2: singing an acchoir was singing alone and singing an acquire

563
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: had better health outcomes.

564
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: Well, you can understand why, right, I mean, you have

565
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: a sense of community, you have kind of working literally

566
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: in harmony with others and feeling something greater than yourself.

567
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: I mean it makes total sense.

568
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 2: Right, totally, And and it strengthens immunity too. They found

569
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 2: but our brain waves align when we're in a shared

570
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 2: artistic experience, and that's meaningful, that's powerful, and that's definitely evolution.

571
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: And that's also a huge argument to keep performing arts

572
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: programs in schools across the country right especially at a

573
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: time when young people are experiencing unprecedented anxiety and depression

574
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: and stress. I think maybe educators will understand how important

575
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: the arts are to your overall educational experience, right.

576
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 2: Absolutely, the art should stay in schools for a couple

577
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: of reasons. One is that it's good for you. It

578
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: helps kids with identity, with figuring out who they are.

579
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: They can be more creative as a result. But one

580
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: of the main purposes is truancy is becoming a tremendous problem,

581
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 2: especially in urban centers around the country, and an artistic

582
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 2: pursuit can keep kids in school, so that's major. One

583
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: of the things I would really like to see happen

584
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: is for creative arts therapists to be embedded in schools

585
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: to help with pro social behaviors and the kinds of

586
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 2: things we're talking about, but also to kind of give

587
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: morale to everybody, and they can work alongside arts educators too.

588
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: You talk about your hope for reimagining performing arts venues

589
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: in order to serve the public in a very different

590
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: way too outside of schools. What is your vision for

591
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: that renee.

592
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 2: Well, there was a study done by Opera America that

593
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: interested me because it said that what people want is

594
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: to be together with their friends and families. That's why

595
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: they go to performances. They want to be seated and

596
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: the round. They want to be able to order drinks,

597
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: and so let's make it social, but let's make it

598
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: also a place where we exchange ideas together. So in

599
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: a way, I could envision performing arts centers becoming community centers.

600
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: That would be wonderful, and I think we need it

601
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: more than ever. I think everyone's looking for experiences, right,

602
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 1: and sort of these experiential opera tunities, I think, certainly

603
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: after the pandemic, when you're all together with people sharing something.

604
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: And honestly, I think part of the problem with polarization

605
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: in this country, Renee, is that we all are in

606
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: our little silos, and this whole feeling of even the

607
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: nation or a big section of the population seeing something

608
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: at once at the same time and enjoying it has

609
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 1: become few and far between. I think that's why sports

610
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: are so popular, absolutely.

611
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: I mean sports definitely does that, and performing arts can

612
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 2: do it as well. But this loneliness and isolation are

613
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: at an all time high, and it's a worldwide problem.

614
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 2: Doctor Ted Drosid the World Health Organization told me he's

615
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: incredibly concerned because depression is up thirty percent in the

616
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: world and part of it is this isolation. So I

617
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: you know, the people in the US are not going

618
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: to performances as much as they did be for the

619
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: pandemic for a number of reasons.

620
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: And they're not going to church in places like that

621
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: where you have that sense of community either and music,

622
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: by the way.

623
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 2: Well, and I would tell them this is not good

624
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: for your health. You folks have to get out, get

625
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: out and be with other people. So science and tells

626
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 2: us now that it's really important we are social creatures.

627
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I tried to pitch a documentary in twenty

628
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: eighteen prior to the pandemic, and I've interviewed Vivek Murphy

629
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: many times and nobody was interested. But now maybe with

630
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: these huge numbers, people might reconsider they thought it was

631
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: too much of a downer. I'm like, okay, whatever. Anyway,

632
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: let's go back to your book, Renee, because I just

633
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: want to finish up by asking you how you were

634
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 1: able to assemble such an incredible group of artists and scientists.

635
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: It includes essays written by everyone from Yo Yo Ma

636
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: to architect Liz Diller to scientists from MIT and Johns Hopkins.

637
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 1: How did you in the world, Renee, by the way,

638
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,479
Speaker 1: with your day job? How did you assemble all these

639
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: experts and say, can you contribute to this book.

640
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: Well, I was trying to show the breadth of the

641
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,240
Speaker 2: field as it currently exists and talk about the future

642
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: the pillars. Also, childhood development is a major pillar, and

643
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: I just asked, you know, I just asked repeatedly. It

644
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 2: took a long time to pull this together. And it's

645
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 2: a good reference also for people who kind of just

646
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: want to maybe they want to just go to one

647
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 2: specific section, but there are chapters that make people cry.

648
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: They're very surprised. There were two young men who saw

649
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: a need in their communities and they created initiatives that

650
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: are booming now, one in Philadelphia and one in New

651
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: York City. There's Roseanne Cash's chapter kills Me. I mean

652
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 2: what she went through with a wrongly diagnosed brain disorder

653
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 2: called kiari one and she and her recovery from that

654
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: as a musician. It's heroing. And you have you know,

655
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 2: Esperanza Spaulding and Rhianna Giittons and really interesting artists, writers

656
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 2: Richard Powers and and patch it so's I wanted it

657
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: to really be expansive.

658
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: Well, it's incredible what you've put together, Renee, And I'm

659
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: just so I mean, I'm not in a position to

660
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: be proud of you, but I'm so impressed by your

661
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: commitment to something because you know, obviously you want to

662
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: contribute more to the world than just your beautiful singing

663
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: voice and your artistic prowess, and you know it's time consuming.

664
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 1: How were you able to do it and to really

665
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: really spend so much time? You're clearly intellectually curious.

666
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: So yes, yes, well, you know, I have wonderful Chasin

667
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 2: and Paul in my office, and I couldn't have done

668
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 2: it without Jason because he was the nuts and bolts,

669
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: gathering everything. What I didn't know about writing this book

670
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 2: because I had already written a book called The Inner Voice.

671
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: Was that an anthology? All the way falls to us

672
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 2: to me, So I really had to have help, no question.

673
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 2: But we did get it done, and I think it's beautiful.

674
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: I would also point to my friend's book Your Brain

675
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: on Art that was a bestseller last year for people

676
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: who like a broader kind of artistic experience. The neuroscience

677
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 2: book is fascinating and I'm working closely with them. Anyway,

678
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 2: I just announced we're about to announce scholars so I'm

679
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: funding now put your money where your mouth is right.

680
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 2: Grants for young scientists who partner with an artist.

681
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 1: That is awesome.

682
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 2: They're amazing.

683
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: Well, wow, that's exciting. Well, you've given so much to

684
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: the world. It was so wonderful to see you as

685
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: a Kennedy Center honoree. So well deserved, and I know

686
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: that that was such a thrill. I wasn't there, but

687
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: I got to watch it, and what an incredible experience.

688
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: And I can't think of anyone more deserving. The book

689
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: that you've got out now is called Music Harnessing the

690
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: Arts for Health and Wellness. Renee, so great to see you.

691
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking to me about all

692
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: your important work, because I think it's going to solve

693
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: a lot of problems if people actually implement some of

694
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: the ideas that are put forth in this book.

695
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie. I really appreciate your time and attention

696
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 2: to this. Thank you. I believe you and I agree.

697
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,

698
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

699
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

700
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: reach out. You can leave a short message at six

701
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 1: oh nine five point two five to five oh five,

702
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I

703
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. Next Question is a

704
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers

705
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervisor producer

706
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and

707
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more

708
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: information about today's episode, or to sign up for my

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Speaker 1: newsletter wake Up Call, go to the description in the

710
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Speaker 1: podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You

711
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: can also find me on Instagram and all my social

712
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Speaker 1: media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

713
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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

714
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715
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Speaker 1: life's challenges, and while girlfriends are great listeners, there are

716
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Speaker 1: limits to your group chat. A talkspased therapist will give

717
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Speaker 1: you an objective perspective and professional guidance. Register at talkspace

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Speaker 1: dot com to connect with a licensed therapist within days

719
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Speaker 1: and you can start messaging back and forth and also

720
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725
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Speaker 1: licensed therapist at talkspace dot com slash ktiecuric