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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Tuesday, January twenty seventh,

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Speaker 2: and we have a stack knight of headlines. So finally,

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Speaker 2: after snow delay, the opening statements in the high profile

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Speaker 2: Alexander Brothers sex trafficking trial have been laid out before

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Speaker 2: the jury and we're going to get into why one

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Speaker 2: of Portland's most notorious pillars, it's the Starry Night murderer,

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Speaker 2: is now back behind bars and Body's going to walk

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Speaker 2: us through that. Also, we have pers actually some listener requests.

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Speaker 2: We're going to do a deep dive in the led

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Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper case and we are so lucky to

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Speaker 2: do that with the help of forensic expert Joseph Scott

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Speaker 2: Morgan who will be joining us to help sort of

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Speaker 2: lay that one out and unpack some developments in the

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Speaker 2: Long Island serial killer case and also a poisoning case

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Speaker 2: which Joseph Scott Morgan knows all about. The poisonings. So hello,

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Speaker 2: I'm Courtney Armstrong and I am here with a body

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Speaker 2: move in, and producer Taha is with us, and Sam

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Speaker 2: and Adam are in the control room, so they're waiting

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Speaker 2: for your calls if you want to ring us Live

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Speaker 2: eight at eight three. One crime and one other thing

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Speaker 2: is that Banfield au Pair trial. He's the man who's

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Speaker 2: accused of killing his wife as well as a stranger

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Speaker 2: in a plot devised doing him in the up pair

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Speaker 2: That has been pushed again, but for now trial Roch.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to get right into the Alexander brother's body.

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Speaker 3: I do, But you know, I just wanted to say

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Speaker 3: real quick too, I'm like excited to talk about Jeff

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Speaker 3: the River. Oh yeah, I don't know anything. I don't

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Speaker 3: really know a lot about that case. Surprisingly, it's one

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Speaker 3: of those ones I just never really got into. So

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Speaker 3: I'm really kind of excited to go through that with

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Speaker 3: you guys and learn about like one of the most

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Speaker 3: notorious and oldest killers that we know about, Sae. I'm

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Speaker 3: excited for that. So I just wanted to say.

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Speaker 1: That real quick.

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Speaker 4: Cool.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, and it's funny because when we were

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Speaker 2: looking at a little earlier you'll see there's a bunch

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Speaker 2: of parallels to cases we've been talking about.

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Speaker 3: In the past couple of days. So I'm sure interesting.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm sure it's interesting. I'm just I'm looking

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Speaker 3: forward to talking about that. So and you know, maybe

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Speaker 3: i'll learn something too, well, I'm sure I will. But

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Speaker 3: in other news, the opening statements began today in that

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Speaker 3: federal sex trafficking trial of those Alexander brothers or in

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Speaker 3: Alon is it Alan or a lawn? I believe it's

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Speaker 3: a lawn, okay, So Lauren a lawn and tall Alexander.

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Speaker 3: And they're known as the Alexander Brothers, okay. And they're

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Speaker 3: wealthy New York and Miami real estate figures. And they

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Speaker 3: have been accused of luring women and girls two parties,

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Speaker 3: luxury trips, and celebrity events over more than a decade,

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Speaker 3: so from two thousand and eight to twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 3: And this is where the crime comes in, sexually assaulting them,

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Speaker 3: sometimes even after drugging them. Their Manhattan trial is expected

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Speaker 3: to last a month. So the jury, we got some

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Speaker 3: information about the jury. The jury is composed of six

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Speaker 3: men and six women, so right down, you know, right

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Speaker 3: down the middle and the alternates are also right down

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Speaker 3: the middle, three men and three women, and they've all

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Speaker 3: been described as like diverse in age and ethnicity.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So several of the prospective jurors were dismissed previously during

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Speaker 3: jury selection after expressing that they had teenage daughters.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: And I know body's going to get into even what

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Speaker 2: was laid out in the opening statements just on day one,

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Speaker 2: that it could just be so incendiary for somebody who

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Speaker 2: has a close teenage daughter in their life.

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Speaker 3: Of course, of course, I mean it would just be

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Speaker 3: like almost like enraging, right, and they don't want that

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Speaker 3: on the jury, right. So the defendants Oran, Alan and Tall,

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Speaker 3: they were present in court and they were seated alongside

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Speaker 3: their attorneys with their family members watching from the galley.

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Speaker 3: So opening statements were given by assistant US Attorney Madison Smser,

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Speaker 3: who also, by the way, worked on the sex trafficking

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Speaker 3: case against Ditty. That's right, and keep that in mind.

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Speaker 3: Keep that in mind. Okay, So the prosecutor in this

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Speaker 3: case also worked on the Ditty case. Okay, And here's

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Speaker 3: what Madison said. She said they masqueraded as party boys,

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Speaker 3: when in reality they were predators. Defendants Oran Alan and

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Speaker 3: Tall Alexander used whatever means necessary, sometimes drugs, sometimes alcohol,

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Speaker 3: sometimes brute force to carry out their rapes. Oo wow,

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Speaker 3: force terrible. Jurors were told that they would read the

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Speaker 3: defendants or On Alan and Tall Alexander's exuberant text messages

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Speaker 3: after some of their encounters, and she said they celebrated

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Speaker 3: raping women and girls in reference to those messages, So

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Speaker 3: there's going to be some incendiary messages that the jury

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Speaker 3: is going to see of them celebrating of what you know,

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Speaker 3: basically their conquests.

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Speaker 5: I suppose absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And even this also came out in opening statements that

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Speaker 2: Orin Alexander allegedly filmed himself having sex with a quote

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Speaker 2: far from sober seventeen year old, and that is now

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Speaker 2: evidence in the federal case. And or And sent that

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Speaker 2: video to a friend, proud of what he had done.

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Speaker 5: And I'm warding nasty.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to they'll show that the the.

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Speaker 5: Video.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't, I don't.

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Speaker 5: I doubt that that is I read question I met.

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Speaker 3: That would be so traumatic to see. Yeah, they might

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Speaker 3: show like a still I can't imagine, or maybe audio

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Speaker 3: were Yeah, I just can't imagine other message the jury

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Speaker 3: will see suggested that the defendants knew they had to

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Speaker 3: stay out of a courtroom like this one, she said,

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Speaker 3: including one text that said, the only thing that could

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Speaker 3: bring them down is some ho complaining. No, that's not

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Speaker 3: my words, so don't come at me. But that's that's

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Speaker 3: what they said. The only way that they would be

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Speaker 3: taken down if one of these hoes complained, right.

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Speaker 2: You know, it reminds me so much of Alexander Tate,

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Speaker 2: and he had a very very similar quote talking about

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Speaker 2: someone who he was alleged to have sexually assaulted, and

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Speaker 2: he just referred to her as some dumb bee.

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Speaker 5: So I don't like the Tape brothers either.

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Speaker 3: These are very they remind me a lot of and

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Speaker 3: in fact, when we've talked about it off the air,

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Speaker 3: I've often got them confused with one another because they

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Speaker 3: seem so alike, right like so oh anyway, So then

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Speaker 3: opening remarks were also done by the defense, right so,

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Speaker 3: but they were only done by two of the defendant's lawyers.

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Speaker 3: So the opening remarks were done by Tal's attorney Deanna

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Speaker 3: Paul and Orn's attorney Tony Garrigos, who, by the way,

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Speaker 3: this is remember I told you to keep this in mind,

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Speaker 3: represented Diddy. So these two lawyers are facing each other

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Speaker 3: in federal court once again. Isn't that interesting?

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Speaker 6: That is really?

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Speaker 5: Really is?

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Speaker 3: I mean, after such a short time, it's very interesting.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if there's like any like, oh, they beat

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Speaker 3: me last time, I better be you know, on my

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I wonder if lawyers do that,

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Speaker 3: we'll have to ask human being. I mean, I would

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Speaker 3: imagine there's some kind of pride right along there, like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to beat this one. I don't know, but

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Speaker 3: they probably see each other often, I'm sure. I mean

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Speaker 3: they're both federal lawyers, so.

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Speaker 6: I'm sure they do.

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Speaker 4: And you were saying how they only had the two

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Speaker 4: of the three rights a coin, but I mean it's

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Speaker 4: not ironic that they only had two female attorneys speak,

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Speaker 4: So I think the right strategy with that.

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Speaker 5: Right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Deanna Paul, who's representing Tall, is a woman, and then

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Speaker 3: of course Tenny Garagos is also a woman, so it

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Speaker 3: was all women today. Alan's attorney, his name is Howard

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Speaker 3: Howard Srebnik, and he reserved his opening statement for when

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Speaker 3: the defense's case in chief begins, so he's going to

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Speaker 3: give his opening statement when the when the state rests

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Speaker 3: and then the defense goes, which is maybe kind of smart.

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Speaker 6: It seems logical.

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Speaker 5: I think it is smart.

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Speaker 2: I agree, because it gives you the chance and you know,

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Speaker 2: in these opening statements, not that you can say whatever

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Speaker 2: you want, but everything you say does not have to

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Speaker 2: be backed up, you know, minute by minute with the facts,

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Speaker 2: and so it gives you another chance to completely set

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Speaker 2: the table again for your client.

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent, and he's going to have the benefit

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Speaker 3: of knowing what the States presented like, I mean, everything

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Speaker 3: that's been said, and you know, I don't know. I

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Speaker 3: think it's I think it's kind of smart. Even though

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Speaker 3: I don't want them to be smart. I want them

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Speaker 3: to be dumb in this case, but it does seem

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Speaker 3: like it's pretty smart. So Gara gos Orang's attorney said,

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Speaker 3: you may view my client's conduct as immoral, but that

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Speaker 3: alone does not make it criminal sex trafficking. She also

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Speaker 3: went on to say her client Oran again was a

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Speaker 3: womanizer and a playboy, but not a rapist. She continued,

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Speaker 3: he was out to have as much sex as possible

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Speaker 3: with as many women as he could, but he was

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Speaker 3: not a predator, and that's what she said in her

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Speaker 3: open remarks. Deanna Paul, who's representing Tall, get this and

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Speaker 3: I kind of chuckled when I when I when I

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Speaker 3: read this. Her name is Deana Paul, and she said

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Speaker 3: she's reporting setting Tall again. She said, we're not here

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Speaker 3: for the A Whole Awards. I can't say the real

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Speaker 3: word the A Whole Awards. If we were, we could

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Speaker 3: lock them up and we could all go home. But

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Speaker 3: that's not what we're here for. So basically she's saying, yeah,

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Speaker 3: they're jerks, right, but that's not criminal. That's not why

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Speaker 3: we're here. So you can't judge them because they're jerks, right.

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Speaker 2: And listen, if you are just joining us on that

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Speaker 2: quote about the A Hole Awards, we are talking about

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Speaker 2: the Alexander Brothers, three brothers who are on trial for

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Speaker 2: sexual assault and other allegations. And this is true crime tonight.

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Speaker 2: So Angelmeyer, who's a spokesman for the brothers legal team,

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Speaker 2: recently did an interview and talked about of course they

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Speaker 2: need a vigorous defense and similar quote, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to say they're the kindest, sweetish, gentlest people, but I

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Speaker 2: think the charge is not the right charge they're not

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Speaker 2: guilty of trafficking.

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Speaker 5: So I think it's.

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Speaker 2: Interesting strategy and I'll be curious to speak with Jarrett

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Speaker 2: Farantino tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: I will too, because this is very in of Diddy, right, Yes,

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Speaker 3: what is this trafficking? Because they lured women right to

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Speaker 3: these parties? Did they were they trafficked to these parties?

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Speaker 3: Is that the root of it all? I'm guessing because listen,

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Speaker 3: if they've been overcharged, they're going to fail again, just

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Speaker 3: like they did with Diddy.

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Speaker 6: You seem you would think they would have learned from that,

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Speaker 6: but you would.

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Speaker 3: Think, but maybe there is something that you know, I mean,

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Speaker 3: obviously we haven't heard the testimony yet, but I have

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Speaker 3: concerns that they possibly could be overcharged. They charge them

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Speaker 3: with rape, charge them with all that, absolutely, but trafficking.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know, maybe, but I'm.

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Speaker 2: With you, and it seems and again it's it's day

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Speaker 2: one of what's expected to be a month long trial,

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Speaker 2: so there's a lot we don't know. But if what

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Speaker 2: the prosecution seems to be promising with videos, and we've

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Speaker 2: spoken before about seems like there's really a lot of

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Speaker 2: victims from all different parts of the three brothers lives

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Speaker 2: dating back even to high school. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: they will, any of them will come into play in

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Speaker 2: this trial, but it seems like a quote easier prosecution

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Speaker 2: for sexual assault or rate potentially. And yeah, just the

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Speaker 2: the trafficking, we'll have to see because that's.

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Speaker 5: A lot of other layers.

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Speaker 4: And just so I was just going to say, when

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Speaker 4: when tomorrow, when jarreted is here one of us, I

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Speaker 4: would love to ask him. This came up earlier, But

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Speaker 4: why is there a strategy or logic with having them

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Speaker 4: all on trial together as opposed to individuals separate, Because

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Speaker 4: everything we've sort of described are really specific incidents that

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Speaker 4: each one has done. So I'm trying to understand the logical.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they're trying to show that they all were working

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Speaker 3: together to do this trafficking, like it was that coring

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Speaker 3: of sorts, right, Like maybe okay, and let's that's Jared.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know, sure, No, it makes sense though

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Speaker 4: if the trafficking is the ag right, what we're you

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Speaker 4: gonna say, Courtney?

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Speaker 2: Just from what I understand, they're purported to have executed

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Speaker 2: some of these assaults together as a group, if not

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Speaker 2: all three, then two at a time.

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Speaker 3: That's right, you mentioned that, Yeah, right, Yeah, that's nasty.

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Speaker 6: I'm so so bad.

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Speaker 3: So the charges are facing our federal sex trafficking, sexual assault,

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Speaker 3: conspiracy to sexually exploit miners and women, and again, these

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Speaker 3: crimes happened over the span of twenty eight to twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one, and conspiracy to commit sex trafficking allegedly spanned

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Speaker 3: from two thousand and nine to twenty twenty one. And

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Speaker 3: this happened in New York, Miami, the Hamptons on cruise

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Speaker 3: ships parties in Manhattan, you know, any luxury destination that

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Speaker 3: they had, and that might be the trafficking piece that

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Speaker 3: I just don't understand. If anybody does understand it, let

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Speaker 3: us know, leave us a talk back. I would love

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Speaker 3: to understand trafficking more, but I clearly don't. You know,

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Speaker 3: I clearly don't understand the trafficking piece. The trial began

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Speaker 3: today January twenty seventh in the US District Court in Manhattan.

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Speaker 3: And again the jury of let's just say eighteen, because

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Speaker 3: there's three, you know, six alternates, nine men and nine women.

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Speaker 3: It's going to be a month long trial and the

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Speaker 3: evidence is going to include videos, emails, texts, and expert

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Speaker 3: testimony on trauma and drug effects. All defendants here or

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Speaker 3: in Alan and Alexander, they face up to life in

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Speaker 3: prison if convicted on the most serious counts.

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Speaker 5: Life life. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like, well, if what's being alleged is true, then they

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Speaker 2: seems I mean absolute one hundred percent victim.

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Speaker 3: And you know this is federal court. In federal court

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Speaker 3: is not aired on the radio or TV or whatnot,

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Speaker 3: so we're going to have to rely on reporters from

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Speaker 3: the courtroom, just so everybody knows.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And we will obviously stay on top of this.

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Speaker 2: And when we come back, the man known as the

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Speaker 2: Starry Night Murderer is back in jail after decades after

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Speaker 2: billing a young employee, and Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert,

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Speaker 2: will be joining us later True Crime Tonight. Welcome back

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Speaker 2: to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. I am Courtney Armstrong. I am

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Speaker 2: here with my buddy body move in. Stephanie Lydecker is out.

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Speaker 2: She is out at Sundance because the Katie Studios produced

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Speaker 2: Murder one Murder one oh one documentary is premiering part

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Speaker 2: one of three.

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Speaker 5: We are so excited.

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Speaker 6: We are.

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Speaker 5: I'm so excited and so so proud.

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Speaker 2: And holding down the fort with us is producer Taha

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Speaker 2: House and Sam Adam in the control room. And later

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Speaker 2: we are going to have forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 2: He's going to join is to break down multiple cases

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Speaker 2: and including Jack the Ripper.

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Speaker 5: I'm exciting. I am so.

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Speaker 4: Excited for that same. Yeah, that's I've heard that yeah constantly.

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Speaker 6: In me too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean I know, I know just about as much

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Speaker 3: as they show like on the History Channel, you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean, Like that's about all I know.

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Speaker 6: So I'm excited about that forensic expert breaking right.

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Speaker 3: I kind of feel like it's Lord of the Flies

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Speaker 3: without stuff here, Like we're all just running them up, right,

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Speaker 3: Like is the show still going to be here when

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Speaker 3: she comes back?

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Speaker 4: Is like, let's pass that conch right over to you body,

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Speaker 4: because I have the con Yeah, you get it.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well it's time, it's my turn. So this

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Speaker 3: is very very interesting. So I didn't know about this guy.

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Speaker 3: His name is Lawrence Hurwitz, okay, and he's the former

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Speaker 3: nightclub owner known as the Starry Night Murderer out of Portland,

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Speaker 3: and he's once again behind bars more than thirty years

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Speaker 3: after committing one of Portland's most notorious killings. He is

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Speaker 3: now seventy one, and he was arrested on January sixteenth

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Speaker 3: of twenty twenty six in Sandy, Oregon and booked into

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Speaker 3: the Clackamus County Jail on charges of fourth degree assault

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Speaker 3: of a domestic partner, harassment involving an offensive physical contact,

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Speaker 3: and a parle violation. His rearrest is drawing renewed attention

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Speaker 3: to his controversial plea deal and the fact that his

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Speaker 3: victim's body has never been found. So he's a convicted murderer.

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Speaker 3: He apparently did not cooperate and let you know, the

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Speaker 3: authorities and loved ones know where his victim's body was.

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Speaker 3: He went to prison, he serves his time, he's out

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Speaker 3: for thirty years on some kind of plea right, and

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Speaker 3: he assaults his partner, and it's bringing renewed attention. Isn't

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Speaker 3: that crazy?

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Speaker 6: It's wild. I'm mistaken.

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Speaker 4: He had some trouble before this too, had to go

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Speaker 4: back again, So I think we're going to touch on

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Speaker 4: that later. But okay, we'll dig into this. And I'm

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Speaker 4: glad you explained the nightclub because when I first heard

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Speaker 4: the story, I thought, how does this time with the

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Speaker 4: Vincent Bengo piece of artwork, I guess, But the whole

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Speaker 4: time I kept thinking a completely different story night.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, he owned a port club or a Portland

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Speaker 3: port club, Portland nightclub and the name of it, So

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Speaker 3: he got the Starry Night murderer moniker, So gotcha?

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Speaker 6: Okay.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety, his twenty one year old employee, his

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Speaker 3: name was Tim Morrow, disappeared after working at the Starry

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Speaker 3: Night Concert Hall. And this was a prominent music venue

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Speaker 3: and club that Larry Hurwitz owned in northwest Portland. So

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Speaker 3: Tim Morrow, he was a promotions manager and he believed,

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Speaker 3: it was believed that he uncovered some kind of counterfeit

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Speaker 3: concert ticket operation that was being run by Larry Hurwitz,

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Speaker 3: the killer.

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Speaker 5: So he discuss heard some kind.

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Speaker 3: Of corruption and Larry Hurwitz. It's argued that Larry Hurwitz

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Speaker 3: killed Tomorrow to prevent that illegal scheme from being exposed.

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Speaker 2: So all, it's just so sad and terrible, you know,

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Speaker 2: if that, indeed is what happened. And I got to

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Speaker 2: say you said something last night, body that has stuck

348
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Speaker 2: with me across the round like nine times today. No,

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Speaker 2: it was it was yesterday on the show when we

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Speaker 2: were talking about the Olympic slalomn guy turned huge drug

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Speaker 2: lord and you know who the FBI's top ten who

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Speaker 2: was just arrested. And you made the comment because there

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Speaker 2: was a like millions of dollars worth of a reward

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Speaker 2: if you were to give a tip that got arrested.

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Speaker 2: But if you did, then you had the Cineloga cartel.

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Speaker 5: So it's listen and it's.

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Speaker 2: It's like this poor guy if he found out and

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Speaker 2: then lost his life horrible.

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Speaker 3: It's so sad, right, Like he discovered that the you know,

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00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,399
Speaker 3: this Larry guy was basically cheating and I don't know

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Speaker 3: if he was trying to blackmail, it's not anyway, let

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Speaker 3: me get into it. So he was the promotions manner

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Speaker 3: and again a promotions manager, and it was believed that

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Speaker 3: he uncovered this counterfeit ticket scheme and that Larry Hurwitz

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Speaker 3: killed him because of it to prevent that scheme from

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Speaker 3: being exposed. And despite almost immediate suspicion of Larry Hurwitz,

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Speaker 3: it took authorities eight years to arrest him for those

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Speaker 3: hob largely due to the fact that Tim Morrow's body

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Speaker 3: was never found. There were zero eyewitnesses and no clear

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Speaker 3: crime scene existed, which is also very interesting because they

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Speaker 3: you know, Okay, So in nineteen ninety eight, after eight

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Speaker 3: years of investigation and gradually building a case based on

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Speaker 3: you know, all this circumstantial evidence, Larry was arrested for

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Speaker 3: murder and in the year two thousand, he entered a

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Speaker 3: no contest plea, avoiding a possible descent, and he was

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Speaker 3: sentenced to eleven years in prison. So this plea agreement

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00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 3: included an expectation that Larry would assist authorities in locating

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Speaker 3: Tim Morrow's remains. However, despite that condition, Larry never rebuild

379
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Speaker 3: the body's location, leaving the case unresolved in a source

380
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Speaker 3: of ongoing grief for Tim's parents, their Mike and Penny Morrow.

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Speaker 3: So they never got resolution, no.

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Speaker 2: And their kid was twenty one years old on the

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Speaker 2: precipice of starting his adult life and eight years after.

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Speaker 3: So this is something I want to ask Jared tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: Jarrett Farantino, he's a prosecutor and he's going to be

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Speaker 3: on our show tomorrow. I want to ask him, since

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Speaker 3: you know, this was part of the deal to recover

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Speaker 3: the body and let you know, give their parents some peace.

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Speaker 3: And put their son at rest. Right, it's the only

390
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Speaker 3: thing to do, and it didn't happen. Why was he

391
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Speaker 3: able to get out on parole after only eleven years?

392
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Speaker 6: Right, you broke your agreement, you feel like.

393
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Speaker 3: I feel like if you break that agreement, then it's

394
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 3: null and void. Right, I agree, But I mean, does

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Speaker 3: it have something Listen, I'm just spitballing. Does it have

396
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Speaker 3: something to do with the fact that you can't be

397
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Speaker 3: convicted twice for the same crime and it'd already been sentenced.

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Speaker 6: Oh, there's that possibility that makes I don't know.

399
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Speaker 3: I'm very curious if you listen, if you're out there

400
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 3: and you know the answer gives me, give me a call.

401
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 3: Eighty to eight thirty one crime. I'm not going to

402
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Speaker 3: be able to sleep tonight for less I know this.

403
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very very I don't understand it either. It's maddening.

404
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Speaker 6: It makes no sense in it.

405
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Speaker 4: There was one word that stood out in that description

406
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Speaker 4: that there was a plea agreement that included an expectation,

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Speaker 4: which almost makes it seem vague right to do it.

408
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Speaker 6: I don't know if there's something with that, but stood

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Speaker 6: out to me.

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Speaker 3: Right, So he was sentenced to eleven years, but he

411
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 3: was released in two thousand and eight after serving only

412
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Speaker 3: eight eight years. And it's a decision that has drawn

413
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Speaker 3: lasting anger from you know, Tim Morrow, his family. Rightfully so.

414
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: In twenty nineteen, eleven years after his release, Larry was

415
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Speaker 3: arrested in Huntington Beach, California, with four point four pounds

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Speaker 3: of cocaine and over three hundred and twenty thousand dollars

417
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Speaker 3: in cash. Wow. So, in twenty twenty one, Larry pled

418
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Speaker 3: guilty to the California drug charges and was sent in

419
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Speaker 3: to eight years again, but this time in California prison.

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Speaker 3: He ultimately only served three and a half years in

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Speaker 3: California before being returned to Oregon custody. In twenty twenty three,

422
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Speaker 3: and the Oregon Borda Parole sentenced Larry to the maximum

423
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Speaker 3: one hundred and eighty days in jail, citing violating the

424
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Speaker 3: conditions of his release, repeated disregard for supervisor requirements, and

425
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Speaker 3: lack of cooperation regarding Tim Morrow's body. Eighteen one hundred

426
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 3: and eighty days. That's crazy. So he gets sentenced to

427
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 3: eight years, he only serves three. They send them back

428
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 3: to Oregon. In Oregon goes on under eighty days because

429
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 3: of all this, because of all this, and all this

430
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Speaker 3: includes repeated disregard for supervision, supervision requirements and lack of

431
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 3: cooperation regarding victim to Tim Morrell's body, that's crazy.

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Speaker 5: This guy is like testing for prisons.

433
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Speaker 3: How he's the guy, he's the luckiest guy in the world. Yeah,

434
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 3: he keeps breaking the law and they keeps just giving him,

435
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 3: including by the way, murder, right, and they just keep

436
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 3: slapping him on the hand. Who I mean, who's his lawyer?

437
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 3: This guy's great? Seriously, can he get an nevada bar?

438
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 3: I want him for my lawyer.

439
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 2: And the no contest I looked into that a little bit.

440
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,959
Speaker 2: So that's a legal action where a defendant. It's kind

441
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 2: of interesting they accept conviction and punishment, but they don't

442
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 2: formally admit guilt. So just if anyone wasn't sure exactly

443
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: what that means, it's sort of an alternative to a

444
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 2: guilty plea, but it allows for faster resolution.

445
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 5: Right.

446
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 3: So all that happens right back in twenty twenty three,

447
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 3: and now in twenty twenty six, only three short years later,

448
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 3: Larry Herwitz is finding himself back in jail following allegations

449
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 3: of domestic violence. Bail is now set at five hundred

450
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 3: thousand dollars, with court appearances scheduled for February fourth and

451
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 3: a jury trial set for March nineteenth for these domestic

452
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 3: charges that he's facing. And I wonder if they're going

453
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: to let the States present his criminal history because sometimes

454
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 3: they don't. Oh yeah, right right, because it's too prejudicial. Gotcha,

455
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 3: it's another thing.

456
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 5: Let's past year with that too.

457
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 3: I you know what, listen, I always have a list

458
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 3: for Jarrett's ridiculous. Every time he sees me, he like

459
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 3: walks the other way. He's like, oh, there's body I'm

460
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 3: not going to take.

461
00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 5: He think out work questions.

462
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 6: No, I love it, and he loves answering them that secretly.

463
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 4: A lot of times I'll bring the topic up and say,

464
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 4: let's ask jar At that so AVA can listen a make.

465
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 6: A note tomorrow.

466
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 4: But these are yeah, I definitely would like to ask

467
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 4: him a lot about this one and all the others

468
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 4: in covering.

469
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, so what was I gonna say?

470
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 3: Now? I can't remember. I'm sorry, it escapes me. I

471
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 3: just had breen listen. I'm still kind of sick breaks

472
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 3: the it brings the fog. I took some day Quill.

473
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 3: Have you guys have taken day Quill?

474
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 6: Yes, I have taken it.

475
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 3: But it makes me loopy. Yes it doesn't more than anything.

476
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 3: I love you day Quill, but man, yeah, I'm an Eric.

477
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 3: Let's go a talkback.

478
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 7: Hey, Chica is quick talk back. I'm still catching up.

479
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 7: I'm on the Alexander episode. Sorry, this is Mary Kay

480
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 7: from Cincinnati, Ohio. I don't think that there's more pedophiles

481
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 7: that are out there. I think that just because now

482
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 7: everything is so sensationalized and publicized, we see them more.

483
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 7: Just wanted to say that, love you guys. Thanks.

484
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that could very well be. I often say that

485
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 3: when people say, oh, the world is so scary. Now

486
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 3: the world is so scary, I'm like, well, like too

487
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 3: many kids are going missing, and I'm like, well, they

488
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 3: went missing when I was a kid too. We just

489
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 3: didn't have a twenty four hour news cycle, right exactly.

490
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 3: The news was only on from like eleven to or

491
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 3: you know, from five to six and then eleven to

492
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: eleven thirty or whatever it was. But now we have CNN,

493
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: we have you know, on news twenty four hours. Look

494
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: and the phone, right.

495
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 4: I'm always seeing these updates about horrific things happening or

496
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 4: cases that I would never have heard about if someone

497
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 4: didn't bring into my.

498
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 3: Attention, right, it would be interesting to look at some

499
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 3: some statistics sometimes to well crime, I mean crime has.

500
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: We we did something on this, not that long ago

501
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: over just globally.

502
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 5: In the US. So not globally in the US.

503
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 2: Crime is down right, crime is actually down And it

504
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 2: is a lot of just with how pervasive the news

505
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: is that coming at us versus.

506
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 5: Having to watch it. I was listening.

507
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 2: We've talked about meditation and all that stuff before, and

508
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: it was one of my meditation things and they were

509
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: likening waking up and turning your phone on. They said,

510
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: would you let one hundred people into your bedroom when

511
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: you're open to eyes to march in and telling you

512
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: about catastrophes that are happening all over the place.

513
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 3: So interesting that you said that. Indy got me like

514
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 3: one of those smart rings for Christmas. And it's like

515
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: it tells like read your biometrics and whatnot, and it

516
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: tells me when I wake up in the morning. It's

517
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 3: like you're not in the blue light phase yet, meaning

518
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 3: you can't be online yet. It wants you to take

519
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 3: that time, you know, from opening your eyes to whenever

520
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 3: to you know, get your eyes open and whatnot. So

521
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 3: it's very interesting.

522
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and has that been a little motivation to you?

523
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: I ignore it?

524
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 5: You ignore okay, Yeah, come on for sure.

525
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: But it has this big message on my phone. It's like, no,

526
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 3: you don't want to do this right now. And I'm

527
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 3: like okay, and I just click okay and ignore it.

528
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: But I should be listening to it, but I don't. Yeah,

529
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 3: I just kind of go, okay, whatever. Yeah, but it

530
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: does warn you like you've just woken up. You shouldn't

531
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: be on your phone right now. It's interesting.

532
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: Your brain is not, I mean, you're not priored for

533
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: all of that. And just the visual of the people marching.

534
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: Would you invite these people in?

535
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 5: Or right to right?

536
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: So on February fourth, I'm sorry, guys, on February fourth,

537
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: to get back to the case, because I will to

538
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 3: day Quill Ranch on February fourth, he's going to be

539
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: in court for a quarter. He has a court appearance schedule.

540
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 3: We're going to follow up on that, and then again

541
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 3: his jury trial is going to be set for March nineteenth.

542
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: If we could add that to our cam to take it,

543
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 3: you know, check it out, just as a reminder, because

544
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 3: I'm very interested in what they're going to do. I

545
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 3: want to know if they're going to present his criminal

546
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 3: history to the jury. I want to know if it's

547
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: going to be part of it. I want to know

548
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 3: if the deal breaking is going to be part of

549
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 3: it and all that, because I find that just really

550
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: interesting that he was able to get out of prison

551
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 3: only after eight years after murdering somebody, and it took

552
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: eight years to figure it out.

553
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 6: That's it's insane. It's crazy.

554
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 3: I know, I don't know what I don't know what

555
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 3: to say. I mean, it's just like I said, if

556
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 3: anybody knows, I would love to know tonight, So give

557
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 3: us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime or hit

558
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 3: us up on the iHeartRadio talkbas Area. Now listen, we

559
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 3: have a very special guest joining us is our favorite

560
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 3: forensic death investigator, Professor Joseph Scott Morgan. He is also

561
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 3: the host of the hit true crime podcast Body Bags.

562
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 3: I love that name, by the way, and night, Joseph,

563
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 3: how are you.

564
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 8: I'm doing well? Thanks for having me. There's that silky

565
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 8: smoves my normal night of the week. But it isn't

566
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 8: hang out with you guys. I consider that a successful day.

567
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 8: All of our friends out there and true Crime Tonight World,

568
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 8: so you just talk everybody.

569
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 5: I was.

570
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: I was on a YouTube live a couple of nights

571
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 3: ago and somebody was asking me about the show and

572
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 3: they're like, what is Joseph going.

573
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: To be on?

574
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: And I was like, well, he's normally on Sunday, but

575
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 3: he's going to be on Tuesday this week, and they

576
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 3: were to every one of the comments, I love Joseph.

577
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 6: I love Joseph.

578
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 5: Joseph, Joseph. It's impossible not to. I know, I know.

579
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 3: So I was like, fans Tricia in England love you.

580
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 3: So that's what I was supposed to pass on. So

581
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 3: what are we going to dig into tonight Courtney with Joseph.

582
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I'm going to lay the table a little bit, Joseph.

583
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: And then we have a ton of questions about this.

584
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: So this relates back to the Long Island serial killer.

585
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: Authorities are now turning to microbial DNA testing and this

586
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: isn't an effort to try and identify an Asian man

587
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: who has been referred to as quote Asian Doe in

588
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: a press release of press releases from the Suffolk County

589
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: DA's office, and they're turning to this microbial DNA testing

590
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: after public tips and facial reconstruction sketches have failed to

591
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: produce any leads. So the victim is a male believed

592
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: to be about seventeen to twenty three years old, and

593
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: his remains were found in twenty eleven along the Ocean Parkway.

594
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: So this is in the recovery site near the areas

595
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: where the other Gilgo Beach victims were found. However, he

596
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: has not been formally linked this Asian doe to the

597
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: accused serial killer Rex Huerman, and Huerman faces charges of

598
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: seven killings in the Long Island area. A couple more things,

599
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 2: and then the questions begin to be Pepper, Joseph. So

600
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: the cause of death is blunt blunt force trauma. And

601
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: interestingly so while the authorities are applying this microbial DNA

602
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: testing which can help determine time of death, medical conditions,

603
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: or even locations where the victim spend time, the method

604
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: is still in early development. So Joseph, just hop in on.

605
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts? What is this new microbial DNA.

606
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 8: Well, it's not necessarily that it's necessarily new? Was I redundant?

607
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 8: Just then? It's not that it's necessarily new, it's just

608
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 8: that it's not used with great frequency. And interestingly enough,

609
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 8: you know, I think I did a scientific Sunday actually

610
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 8: on post mortem interval. It's something that we talked about.

611
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 8: Did you know that with post mortem interval we're very

612
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 8: broad in that spectrum, you know, riger mortis, lib or mortis,

613
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 8: all those sorts of things. With microbial examination, do you

614
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 8: know that it's actually more accurate than any tool that

615
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 8: we have relative to post mortum interval? That is that

616
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 8: Tomson's death. And one of the reasons is is that

617
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 8: we have microbes that live in our gut, okay, and

618
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 8: just like any other creature on Earth, they have a

619
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 8: specific DNA sequence that makes them unique. So you can

620
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 8: begin to think about you know, if you've ever studied

621
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 8: forensic entomology, which again is another thing that we use

622
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 8: to try to determine time since death and that right, yeah, yeah,

623
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 8: it's with bugs, and so it's very non specific because

624
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 8: it's very broad and it's limited. It's limited because well,

625
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 8: right now we're in the depths of winter time where

626
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 8: I live. Right now, it's about seventeen degrees outside, So

627
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 8: if you have a decomposed body outside, there's gonna be

628
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 8: limited insect activity, and if you get indoors, there's even less.

629
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 8: Microbes don't work that way, so there's a succession. They reproduce,

630
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 8: they develop, and you know, they have a timeline that's

631
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 8: a measurable thing and depended upon like what kind of

632
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 8: environment you've been in, dwelling, things you've been ingesting, things

633
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 8: you've been exposed to. Many of that microbial life is

634
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 8: actually unique to particular areas. So that's why you know,

635
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 8: kind of this idea of where can we place this person,

636
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 8: you know, what kind of microbial life was he taken

637
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 8: on board?

638
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: And examining the DNA of the microbes on.

639
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it's called microbial succession. It's kind of it's

640
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 8: a very fascinating science and it's it's just that if

641
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 8: people will take the time to study and collect it

642
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 8: and also what what level of tissue are you working with?

643
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 8: Here's here's the real insight here, because with this unidentified

644
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 8: subject that we have, you have to have some kind

645
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 8: of soft tissue and or facilitate this, see what I'm saying.

646
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 8: So it's like this is not going to work, at

647
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 8: least in my understanding, it's not necessarily going to work

648
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 8: on bony remains. Okay, and we know several of these

649
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 8: these poor poor victims were in fact skeletonized. It doesn't

650
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 8: seem to be the case here, and that's probably broadly known.

651
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 8: But I'm just trying to give you a little insight

652
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 8: from an investigative perspective. You know, we've got two new

653
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 8: types of DNA are not new, but we've got the

654
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 8: nuclear DNA that they were going to use. And you

655
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 8: remember we made the comment or I did that the

656
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 8: defense attorney when that was first introduced. You know, he said,

657
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 8: they're using magic. It's like they created fire, you know,

658
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 8: for the first time.

659
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 3: And they had to build that DNA, right.

660
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, But the nuclear DNA that we've been we've been

661
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 8: using medical research for a long long time. Yeah, you know,

662
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 8: cutting edge technology. It's just that it hasn't been used

663
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 8: in criminal in a forensic sense in a case. And

664
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 8: you know, uh, microbial DNA has been used before. So

665
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 8: that's not necessarily a fight that they that they can

666
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 8: necessarily put up. But they're at the end of the

667
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 8: rope I think here, because they're trying to narrow this

668
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 8: person down. No, we've got a cause of death, which

669
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 8: is fascinating the blunt.

670
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 5: That's good.

671
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 4: Can I ask a quick I just want to wrap

672
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 4: my head so so microbes Like, I'm a living human

673
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 4: being and microbes are in my body. Now when I die,

674
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 4: those microbes are still Oh yeah, yeah.

675
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 8: Have you ever have you ever wondered why? And I

676
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 8: don't you know, I'm not forgive me. I'm not trying

677
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 8: to be grotesque, but I think that everybody has these

678
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 8: these things in their mind. Like, for instance, with the

679
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 8: bloating of a body, you know, we get the swelling

680
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 8: that goes on. Yes, well that occurs because of microbes.

681
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 8: Like any other living organism, they're giving off gases and

682
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 8: so the bodies currently swell. We have a condition called

683
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 8: marbling in the skin where you get these kind of

684
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 8: spiderweb like presentations and skin that kind of followed the

685
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 8: vascular system and you'll see it present on the skin. Well,

686
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 8: the reason that happens is that the blood is being

687
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 8: the blood that's still sitting in the vessels is being

688
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 8: affected by the microbes and it's changing colors externally. So

689
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 8: microbes play a big, big role. And you know things

690
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 8: surrounding post mortal interval interesting, Okay.

691
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 2: And so just a couple of things that came out.

692
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 2: So investigators are surmising they're just thinking that this victim

693
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: was likely not from Suffolk or Nassau County, but possibly

694
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 2: from a larger Asian immigrant community further away. And also

695
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: pointed out that Asian populations are particularly under represented in

696
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: public DNA databases. And you know how much how much

697
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 2: does that impede potentially investigators.

698
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 8: Well, if you're if you're looking to build out forensic

699
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 8: genetic genealogy like ID, like my friends at AUTHORM, it

700
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 8: could it could present more of a challenge Asian populations.

701
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 8: By the way, people don't understand this about their genealogy.

702
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 8: They're actually more attuned to their genealogy than any other

703
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 8: group in the world. They can go back generations and

704
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 8: this a lot of stuff historically has passed down through

705
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 8: their family, you know us, like my family, I'm stuck

706
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 8: in eighteen oh nine. I'm trying to get beyond the

707
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 8: Morgans in eighteen oh nine. Okay, you can sit down

708
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 8: with certain Asian populations and they can tell you back

709
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 8: it just it's all the things that have been passed.

710
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 8: Oh yes, oral history and you know, so I'm not

711
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 8: saying that's the sole reason, but I think that that

712
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 8: does play into it, and so they're underrepresented. It's just,

713
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 8: you know, it's not something that they would necessarily be

714
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 8: focused on, you know here, I mean, I'll admit it.

715
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 8: I'm chief among sinners. I'm a mutt man. I want

716
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 8: to know my origins, right sure, okay, And so for

717
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 8: me it's going to be much more compelling, I think,

718
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 8: because we don't know, and for them they do know

719
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 8: a great degree. Yeah.

720
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 5: Interesting.

721
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 3: So they're trying to link this Asian dough right to

722
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 3: the Rex Ureman, the Long Island sailor killer, and they're

723
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 3: trying to determine I just want to summarize this very quickly.

724
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 3: They're trying to determine if the microbe microbial DNA that

725
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 3: they found on Asian doe will have a link to Rex.

726
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 3: Is that correct? Or are they just trying to determine

727
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 3: who he was to determine if you know, maybe he

728
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: was like a maybe an escort of some kind or whatnot,

729
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 3: to link him to Rex.

730
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think that probably. Uh, there there there are

731
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 8: no restrictions on what they're trying to the utility.

732
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 5: Right, yes, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, And.

733
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 8: So they're they're going to go broad spectrum here and

734
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 8: try to do try to glean as much information harvest

735
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 8: if you want to use that term as much information. Well,

736
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 8: all they can, you know, for linkage.

737
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 3: And I would assume the priority would be to identify

738
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 3: him regardless of his linkage to Rex Umin.

739
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 8: Right it is. But I hold there's a principle that

740
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 8: I hold onto in medical legal death investigation. Anytime you

741
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 8: have an unidentified body, you're dead in the water, no

742
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 8: pun intended with a death investigation. If I, as a

743
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 8: forensic death investigator, can determine who the person is, all

744
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 8: of a sudden, a new world opens to me. I

745
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 8: know who their friends are, I know who their associates are,

746
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 8: I know what their medical history is. All these different

747
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 8: things open wide for you, and you can begin and

748
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 8: if you want to narrow it down, really really narrow

749
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,919
Speaker 8: it down, you can begin to understand what their movements were,

750
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 8: what were their tendencies. If they're turning tricks, Okay, well

751
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 8: where did they turn tricks? If they did turn tricks,

752
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 8: then who were their associates? Where they walk in the

753
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 8: stroll with somebody else that may have known them. Oh yeah,

754
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 8: somebody came by here in an avalanche, and right, yeah,

755
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 8: and so if I can get to that, but that

756
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 8: all you got to pull the thread on the identity

757
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 8: first in order to get that narrowed down. And that's

758
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 8: you know, that's paramount in my you know, my humble opinion.

759
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 2: It was sure I had I have a forensic question,

760
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 2: and since you're a forensic expert. So this victim again

761
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: was found in twenty eleven, but the estimated time of

762
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: death is around two thousand and six. Okay, so the

763
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: remains were out there for five years.

764
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 5: I found it.

765
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 2: Very curious that in one of the reports it says

766
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: the victim was determined to be, you know, between seventeen

767
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: and twenty three years old and approximately five three to

768
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 2: five nine inches tall. Why that six inch gap that

769
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 2: seems really large to me.

770
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 8: Excellent question if i'd go star right now and I

771
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 8: could reach the screen to put it on for so okay,

772
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 8: here's here's one of the problems with skeletal age age estimation.

773
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 8: So when you lay a scale, if it is and

774
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 8: I don't think this is a totally skeletonized body, I

775
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 8: have to assume that they have some kind of soft

776
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 8: tissue to work with. But let's just say and that

777
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 8: that could happen. I don't know, because I don't know

778
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 8: the surrounding area. However, so if if you have, like

779
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 8: just think about your back for instance, where you have

780
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 8: disk space in your back, those are soft bits of

781
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 8: soft tissue, you're absent those. There's actually a formula that

782
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 8: they plug in to try to get an estimate of

783
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 8: the height doing a height without you know, some of

784
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 8: the cartilaginous bodies that are there that are going to

785
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 8: reduce your height. Okay. Also, if there's been any kind

786
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 8: of breakage, feasting, anything that's taken place on any of

787
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 8: the bony prominences at all, that can compromise overall your

788
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 8: overall you know, height and you the best you can

789
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 8: do is a ballpark it. I'm actually impressed with this

790
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 8: narrow it's kind of a narrow field. I've seen them,

791
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 8: I've seen him very desperate. What's really fascinating is that

792
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 8: they did a fine job here with age estimation. That's

793
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 8: very narrow, because if you can get it down to

794
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 8: five years, like a five to six year period, man,

795
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 8: you're in the bonus round. At that point because I've

796
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 8: seen them spread out as twenty to thirty years Okay, yeah, yeah,

797
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 8: so most of the time you're missing a skull when

798
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 8: that happens.

799
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 3: Oh, because they and they've done the facial reconstruction too.

800
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, they have all at this point, right.

801
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 3: And they put him in short hair andalong hair because

802
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 3: they're not sure if he was you know, an escort,

803
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 3: right yep. So yeah, wow, very interesting. Well, keep it

804
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 3: right here. Joseph Scott Morgan is not going anywhere. We

805
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 3: have him tied to the chair. He's going to be

806
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 3: unpacking a chilling key where a mother is accused of

807
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 3: poisoning her own daughters over Thanksgiving.

808
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 5: Keep it right here at True Grand Tonight.

809
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 3: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight, where we're talking true

810
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 3: crime all the time. I'm Boddy Moven and I'm here

811
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 3: producer Courtney Armstrong and producer Taha House and we are

812
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 3: so lucky to be joined by forensic death investigator and

813
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 3: professor Joseph Scott Morgan. Hi, Joseph. Later and I'm gonna

814
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 3: cut him off. Later in the show, we're gonna be

815
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 3: talking about Jack Thripper, and I want to get to

816
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 3: that as fast as possible. So let's get through this one.

817
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 3: What do you got Courtney?

818
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 2: Okay, but first this is okay, it is a compelling

819
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: story and it's just happening, and it's got so many

820
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 2: question marks, and it's poisoning, which Joseph, we talked about

821
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 2: these poisoners and what a special specific.

822
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 5: Locked they are.

823
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 2: So so it's a really curious case. Authorities out in

824
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: Henderson County, North Carolina, they've arrested a fifty two year

825
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 2: old woman. Her name is Gundra and Linda Jene Casper

826
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: Lina Coogle. Okay say that again, heard her as the

827
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: alleged poisoner. But nice try, But this alleged poisoner has

828
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: been arrested for allegations of poisoning her daughter to death.

829
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 2: Her daughter's name is Leela Livis and the attempted poisoning

830
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: at the same time of her other daughter, Mia Lacey,

831
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: and MIA's boyfriend Richard Evan Peg.

832
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 6: Wow.

833
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so three people. Yeah, so there's one death. One

834
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: of her daughters died and then the other two were poisoned.

835
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 2: Her other daughter and that his boyfriend but survived. The

836
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 2: arrest was made just eleven days ago on January sixteenth,

837
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: and it also, this is a little bit curious and

838
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 2: maybe Joseph can shed some light. But it also brought

839
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 2: up possible connections that the accused poisoner might be involved

840
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: in a previously unsolved death back in two thousand and

841
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 2: seven of a man named Michael Schmidt. Oh, but that

842
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: exact cause of death remains uncertain, and we will get

843
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 2: to that. So this crime of poisoning happened just in

844
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 2: Thanksgiving of last.

845
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 3: Year, also the Thanksgiving that just passed.

846
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 6: That's correct.

847
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 5: Oh, okay, yep.

848
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 2: So investigators say it's you know, it's Thanksgiving twenty twenty five.

849
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 2: There was a gathering at this accused poisoner's home and

850
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: all three of the victims drank from the same bottle

851
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: of wine that was laced with an industrial chemical that

852
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:12,399
Speaker 2: converts into cyanide in a body. So, before we get

853
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 2: any further, how are you how are you lacing wine?

854
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 5: And yeah, what what goes on with that process?

855
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 8: Joseph, Well, I think that first off, I think the

856
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 8: big question I would have is how does person get

857
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 8: access to the substance? And the substance is actually uh

858
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 8: is actually referred to it. It turns out to be

859
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 8: methyl cyanide. And uh, it's it's not a naturally occurring

860
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 8: element out there sid you know, of course is and uh,

861
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 8: the question would be how do you get how do

862
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 8: you get access to it? And then if you're applying it,

863
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:06,479
Speaker 8: uh into into wine, h how's that application process work?

864
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 8: Is it something that's liquefied that you're just going to

865
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 8: kind of you know, drop into the bottle or inject

866
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 8: through a quark? And how do you keep everybody else

867
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 8: away from it?

868
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 6: It?

869
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 8: I got to tell you all this the smacks of

870
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 8: the case that we've been prattling on about, or I have,

871
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 8: at least not y'all, but I think you guys covered

872
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 8: it the poisoned mushroom case out of Also you know

873
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,959
Speaker 8: that we covered for a long time with the death

874
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 8: cap mushrooms. And again it's all it all goes back

875
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 8: to how stealthily can you apply this? But at its heart, uh,

876
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 8: this this turns out to be a cyanide poisoning and

877
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 8: it is arguably one of the most brutal ways that

878
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:03,280
Speaker 8: someone can can die relative as far as a poisoning goes.

879
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 8: It creates all kinds of of gas thro intestinal problems.

880
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 8: You can see uh, manifestations on the skin. It can.

881
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 8: It can, really it can. When you're low dosing somebody

882
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 8: with the stuff, it can lead to uh to, I

883
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 8: don't know, kind of a mania and delusions and all

884
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 8: these sorts of things that you know, if you can

885
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 8: imagine having the stuff in your system and you're just

886
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 8: kind of languishing there, and of course you you dose

887
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 8: them enough in that would be a chronic case of

888
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 8: chronic means over a long period of time, and acute

889
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 8: means that if you get an acute dosage on board,

890
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 8: that's enough to kill somebody. The trick is, if you're

891
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 8: trying to do this, how are you going to you know,

892
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 8: how are you going to know what dose to apply

893
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 8: at what level? I think? And you know, because if

894
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 8: your goal is to wipe people out, you want to

895
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:12,240
Speaker 8: have it done then and there, because if you're targeting

896
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 8: three people, which is a bold undertaking, which is a

897
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 8: bold undertaking, you might not have access to them again

898
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 8: in this kind of intimate setting. You see what I'm saying.

899
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 8: One case, I would urge all of our listeners to

900
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 8: really dig into do you guys remember the television show

901
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 8: City Confidential. I don't know if you guys, Oh that

902
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 8: one It's one of my favorite I don't watch true

903
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 8: crumb shows going back years and years. One of my

904
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 8: favorite favorite shows. Keith David was the famous actor. He

905
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 8: was a narrator. There is a case involving a lady

906
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 8: called and Jed Lyles, and it happened back in the fifties.

907
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 8: If you get a chance to listen and read, I

908
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 8: did an episode on body bags. Okay, she had access

909
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 8: to food sheran a cafeteria, and she poisoned a couple

910
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 8: of husbands. Her mother in law killed her child. Oh yeah,

911
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 8: with the stuff. But she had access to them all

912
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 8: the time. Do you see the difference, Well, I do,

913
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 8: and yeah.

914
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 3: And you bring up a really good point. So this

915
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 3: woman the accused of poisoner in this case, the mom

916
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 3: who poisoned her daughters and her daughter's boyfriend. She operated

917
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 3: a restaurant, and I did some cursery research, and I

918
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 3: went and looked at you know where, what are the

919
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 3: uses of this? You know, uh, what would you call it?

920
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 3: Methyl cyanide? Yeah, and it's used in pharmaceuticals, it's used

921
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 3: in electronics. It's used in to create like plastics and rubber,

922
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 3: like manufacturing. There's no in my basic understanding of this

923
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 3: is that there's no way she would have had access

924
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 3: to this, So how would she have gotten access I

925
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 3: don't know. Y, Yeah, very interesting question.

926
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 8: And how does she remain safe so that doesn't kill her? Right,

927
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 8: here's a little factory that you might enjoy hearing. Did

928
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 8: you know that a lot of the many bodies that

929
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 8: we get out of house fires have synide on board.

930
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 8: And one of the reasons is is that think about

931
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 8: right now, everybody that's within the sound of my voice,

932
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 8: think about all of the items in your house that

933
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 8: are plastic, so when heat hits them, it'll release all

934
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 8: of these lethal combinations. So it's not like when people die.

935
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 8: You can have people that when you pull the toks

936
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 8: on them and see it, there's sinide levels will be

937
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 8: through the room and that kind of interesting. So, yeah,

938
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 8: it's used for industrial proceeds.

939
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 5: That is.

940
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 2: Actually that helps clarify a little bit we had mentioned earlier.

941
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: There was a case in two thousand and seven with

942
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 2: the question mark, which I'll get to in just a minute,

943
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 2: but you actually just clarified. I just wanted to give

944
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 2: a couple of the couple more of the details of

945
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 2: this because you had mentioned microdosing Joseph and in this case,

946
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 2: the daughter who died, thirty two year old Leela Livis,

947
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 2: she had five times the lethal dose.

948
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 4: Wow.

949
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 2: And meanwhile the surviving daughter and boyfriend, they were hospitalized

950
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 2: and obviously did not have a lethal dose. Very curiously,

951
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 2: this woman, this accused poisoner, allegedly was conducting Internet searches

952
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 2: after the dinner actually happened, asking what happens if I

953
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: accidentally ingest the poison, which.

954
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 3: Maybe she was scared she did.

955
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 5: Oh that makes sense.

956
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 4: Sometracks we wondered this. I was trying to figure out

957
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 4: why she would.

958
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 5: Look at after the fact.

959
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 4: That makes complete sense. Now she might have taken a

960
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 4: small sip by a mistake, or.

961
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 8: I think I would be really fascinated to know how

962
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 8: these people that survive are doing, because let me break

963
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 8: something down to you real quick, and our friends out

964
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 8: in the medical community, particularly that work in care. When

965
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 8: you have somebody that shows up at the er and

966
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 8: they're dealing with gas, thro intestinal distress, maybe they've got

967
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 8: a rash or something like that. Doctors when they hear

968
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 8: hook beats, they don't think camel, they think whore right,

969
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 8: And so poisoning like this is such an outlier for them.

970
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 8: You might miss it the initial run through pass through

971
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 8: and a standard talks panel they might run at a hospital.

972
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 8: Dependent upon how the lab is set up, they might

973
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 8: not screen for it. And so that's precious time, okay,

974
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 8: that the person's getting secret and secret. So the people

975
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,919
Speaker 8: that survive, you know, you can do things like you'll

976
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 8: have skin lesions, you can have hair falling out, all

977
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,720
Speaker 8: kinds of things that'll that will happen, impact the teeth

978
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 8: for prolonged exposure, and so it's nasty, nasty business. So

979
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 8: you know, I'm just I'm curious about those that actually survived.

980
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 6: Can I ask a quick two part of question? The

981
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 6: big just says, I'm hearing more of this? Is there?

982
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 6: Would I taste this poison?

983
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 4: If I'm in this unusual situation, I'm always thinking about

984
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 4: what if this happens to me, would I be able

985
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 4: to taste it.

986
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 6: And odorless and tasteless odorally and taste okay? And then

987
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 6: if I am.

988
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 4: Suspicious that maybe I've ingested this poison, is there something

989
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 4: immediately I should do, like self induced vomiting, drink milk?

990
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 6: Is there anything?

991
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 8: Yeah? So yeah, I mean, if they catch it immediately.

992
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 8: What they're going to do is they're going to and

993
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 8: forgive me, particularly all of our friends out there that

994
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 8: work in medicine. They're gonna, uh, you know, pump, pump

995
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 8: your stomach. And when the say pumped your stomach, they're

996
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 8: going to give you that charcoal that induces vomiting and

997
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 8: also the charcoal neutralizes the agent that's within you, and

998
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 8: they're going to try to get you through it. Now,

999
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 8: it doesn't end right there. There's all kinds of other

1000
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 8: therapeutic measures that they have to work because you don't

1001
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 8: know metabolically what your uptake is. It may have grabbed

1002
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 8: some of it and it's thrown it out into your system,

1003
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 8: and now your system's you know, trying to purge itself

1004
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 8: with the stuff and it's going haywire, doesn't know what

1005
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 8: to do, and it's suffering, suffering the effects of the substance.

1006
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 8: It's so highly lethal.

1007
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.

1008
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 2: Well you had mentioned fires before and how because of

1009
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 2: all the plastics that are we are surrounded byre in

1010
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: our lives that often you know, victims of fires will

1011
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 2: have that. Well, the two thousand and seven case, this

1012
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 2: victim Michael Schmidt was originally thought to have died in

1013
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 2: a house fire, and that's now been amended.

1014
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 3: Oh right, it's been amended, and she's actually being charged

1015
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 3: with that murder. So she's she's facing two counts of

1016
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 3: first secree murder.

1017
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 8: Okay, so yeah, so theated I.

1018
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 3: Don't know, so that maybe the two counts are including

1019
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,959
Speaker 3: that the twenty twenty five poisoning death of her thirty

1020
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 3: two year old daughter and the two thousand and seven

1021
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 3: death of that Michael Schmidtman. So she's being charged with

1022
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 3: both of those, and she's also being charged with two

1023
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 3: counts of attempted murder and three counts of distribution of

1024
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 3: prohibited prohibited food and beverage. So maybe because the wine

1025
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 3: was altered with this chemical and she served to three people, right,

1026
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 3: that's those three counts. That makes sense, right, So she Yeah,

1027
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: so she's actually being charged with that death.

1028
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, when they amended, they amended the death certificate.

1029
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 5: Right.

1030
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 2: I will be very curious to follow the because right

1031
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 2: now there is no no suspected motive.

1032
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 3: I wonder what the link is to Michael the two

1033
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 3: thousand and seven case.

1034
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 2: So it appears that she bought the property from Michael,

1035
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 2: that she bought some property from yes, yes, wow, whatever

1036
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 2: happened right with that.

1037
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 3: We'll have to dig into that. I'm interested in all

1038
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 3: that stuff.

1039
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, poisoners are odd birds. They and the whole grand

1040
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 8: scheme of killers, they really are. I appeared on an

1041
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 8: old television show called Poisonously as from your Yeah, don't

1042
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 8: you love these names? Exactly Poisonous. I think they got

1043
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 8: one now called Killer Granny's. But anyway, I'm not on

1044
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 8: that one. But anyway, you know, you think about this,

1045
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 8: and you think about you know, their their typology is

1046
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 8: really bizarre. They're interesting people to kind of look into.

1047
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 8: They're not coming at you with a weapon in the dark.

1048
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 8: They're coming at you with something that is so hidden,

1049
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 8: and it's there's a lot of premeditative thought that has

1050
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 8: to go into it. It's not like just grabbing a

1051
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 8: club and hitting somebody out of the head. A lot

1052
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 8: of thought has to go into it too, So their

1053
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 8: brain works in a completely different manner.

1054
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,479
Speaker 6: Stealthy, little interesting. Yeah, very interesting are they?

1055
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 3: So they thought he died of a fire, They find

1056
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 3: you know that, oh this woman died from this poisoning.

1057
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 3: I wonder if they went back and looked at like

1058
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 3: known associates and They're like, oh, very interesting. I want

1059
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 3: to dig into this more. But coming up next, Joseph

1060
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 3: is going to stay and I'm promised we were going

1061
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 3: to talk about the Jack the Ripper and we're going

1062
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 3: to he's going to break down some of the victim's

1063
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 3: injuries and reveal the.

1064
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 5: Mind of the killer. Keep he right here at True

1065
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 5: crepting it.

1066
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 3: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we

1067
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 3: talk true crime all the time. I'm Boddy Moving and

1068
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 3: I'm here with producer Courtney Armstrong and producer Taha House,

1069
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 3: and we're here with Joseph Scott Morgan. Don't forget if

1070
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 3: you miss any part of the show, you can always

1071
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 3: catch the podcast. You can also download the iHeartRadio app.

1072
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 3: So t you a True Crime Tonight. Click the little

1073
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 3: microphone and boom you'll be on the show. We're gonna

1074
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 3: go into the Jack the Ripper, but we.

1075
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 9: Got to talk back, all right. I also learned if

1076
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 9: you could go into detail about Jack the Ripper that

1077
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 9: case and maybe get us this detail about the best

1078
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 9: series on who he really was.

1079
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 5: That's that's what we're gonna do. And I'm so excited.

1080
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 5: Your wish is our command, So.

1081
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 2: Just for anyone who you know, everyone knows Jack the Ripper,

1082
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 2: but not a lot of people really know some details.

1083
01:02:57,840 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 5: So here's just a little bit.

1084
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper was an unidentified serial killer who was

1085
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 2: super active in London's Whitechapel district. This is back in

1086
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 2: around eighteen eighty eight, so he's also been known as

1087
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 2: the White Chapel Murderer or Leather Apron. And this serial

1088
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:24,919
Speaker 2: killer targeted women, mostly impoverished prostitutes, and he was known

1089
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 2: to mutilate their throats and abdomens and sometimes remove organs.

1090
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 2: So because of this really brutal and ritualistic some view

1091
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 2: nature of the crimes, there was huge media frenzy that

1092
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 2: surrounded the case and the mystery surrounding you know, this perpetrator,

1093
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 2: this unknown perpetrator, has made Jack the Ripper a figure

1094
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 2: who just is still talked about today all these century

1095
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 2: and a half later. And honestly, with everything I just said,

1096
01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 2: I feel like it's really present in what we've just

1097
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 2: been talking about earlier this week's body with Black Dahlia,

1098
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 2: with the mutilation and list, with the alleged going after

1099
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 2: serial KILLERSODI act.

1100
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 3: With the communication with the media and whatnot. Right, Yeah,

1101
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 3: all to Jack the Ripper. That's kind of why we

1102
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 3: started talking about this was yeah right, yeah right.

1103
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:30,439
Speaker 2: And he's been eleven murders have been investigative that are

1104
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 2: thought to have in perpetrated by the by Jack the Ripper.

1105
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 2: But then there's five victims who are widely.

1106
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 5: Attributed to Jack the Ripper.

1107
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: But Joseph, why don't you hop in and just give

1108
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 2: us give us your Jack the Ripper experience in two cents.

1109
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 8: My experiences now, I don't know about.

1110
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 3: That a lot experience. I went I want to Jack

1111
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 3: the Ripper walking tour when I it's a crime con

1112
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,800
Speaker 3: over in London, but I didn't know. It was just

1113
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 3: kind of like seeing where things happened. They didn't really

1114
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 3: go into the things that Joseph's going to go into.

1115
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 3: So that's why I'm here for Okay, I.

1116
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 8: Don't know how how in depth I can go, but

1117
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 8: body you you did at least get to experience the

1118
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 8: atmosphere you know when you go you go down there,

1119
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:23,640
Speaker 8: and I got to tell you, yeah, in my obviously

1120
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 8: I wasn't around during that period of time, but the area,

1121
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 8: if you've never been there, you think of the cobblestone

1122
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 8: streets they're still there, right, you know, and you can

1123
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 8: still see them because they're breaking through the pavement. The

1124
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 8: area is very dark, it's dimly lit. It's still the same.

1125
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 8: You know, things don't change a lot in London. You know,

1126
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 8: you've got the beautiful buildings that have been built up

1127
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 8: around the area. But down in the Whitechapel area which

1128
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 8: was a commerce area. And matter of fact, there's a

1129
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 8: pub that my wife Kimmy and I like to go

1130
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 8: to called the Bell. It is down there, really old

1131
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 8: pub and it approximates the same areas where all this

1132
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 8: went down. You go down the alleyways. The alleyways are

1133
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 8: very very narrow and from our understanding, we didn't take

1134
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 8: a tour. We just kind of walked it on our

1135
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 8: own at night, which added another level of creeping to it.

1136
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 8: Yeah and yeah, and it was naturally foggy, damn Yeah,

1137
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 8: and you can see, you know, because some of these

1138
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 8: things take place, some of these crimes actually took place

1139
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 8: down well, let me rephrase that. The way the prostitution

1140
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 8: would work is that the women did not always take

1141
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 8: John's back to the crib. They would pick up someone

1142
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 8: and they would go into an alleyway and transact the business, okay,

1143
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 8: and then they would move on. Okay. So like even

1144
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 8: as it is today, people that are sex workers that

1145
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 8: are not regulated, you don't know who you're coming in

1146
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:56,919
Speaker 8: contact with, okay. And isn't that interesting that even still

1147
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 8: to this day, many serial killers you in on sex workers, right,

1148
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 8: something as old as time?

1149
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 3: Right.

1150
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 8: I think it probably went on way before this because

1151
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 8: these women are easily abused, taking advantage of. But the

1152
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 8: big thing with Jack the Ripper that everybody had always

1153
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 8: you know, kind of postulated about, if you will, is

1154
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 8: this desecration of remains and the skill with which it

1155
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 8: was done. See some of these injuries.

1156
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's reported that the victim's throats were often

1157
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 3: deeply slashed, and he would disfigure their faces as well.

1158
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 3: And as these murders progressed, the level of mutilation would

1159
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 3: also increase.

1160
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 8: Would the boulder and boulder that you know, just like

1161
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 8: anything else? Yeah, And just like anything else. That's why

1162
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 8: I've always held it, you know, when you know, like Coburger,

1163
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 8: when he left, I promised I wasn't going to say

1164
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 8: his name, but I always felt so he would just

1165
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 8: covered in blood. This person would have been covered in blood,

1166
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 8: but here's the thing about it. They were comfortable with blood.

1167
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 8: And there's a skill level too to be able to

1168
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 8: do this, because you're talking about things like disfigurement, mutilation,

1169
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,839
Speaker 8: you know, like cutting at the breast and also opening

1170
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 8: the abdomen to do almost kind of a disembowelment. And

1171
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 8: so anybody that would do this would have to be

1172
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 8: very familiar and very comfortable.

1173
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 3: With instruments an anatomy too, right, yeah, right, because that

1174
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 3: I was struck by the fact, and I was unaware

1175
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 3: until today.

1176
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 5: That this went on to sometimes people.

1177
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 2: The victims had their organs removed, right, including the uterus,

1178
01:08:43,320 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 2: the bladder, and kidneys. I mean, I wouldn't know how

1179
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:48,440
Speaker 2: to find a kidney and an abdomen.

1180
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 6: That's a you really do need to know some sort

1181
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 6: of background.

1182
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 8: Well, yeah, but you know, we're so far removed from

1183
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,719
Speaker 8: that time now. A lot of people back then were

1184
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 8: more sophisticated anatomically than we are because they had to

1185
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 8: do they had to dress animals at home, and so

1186
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 8: they would have a better you know, so that the

1187
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:13,799
Speaker 8: idea that you're limited that not you, but that people

1188
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 8: have limited this to only this select thing. You can

1189
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,719
Speaker 8: have a housewife at home, that's having to kill a chicken,

1190
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:22,719
Speaker 8: and she's having to gut the chicken for her family.

1191
01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 8: I can understand some basic anatomy, are suckling pig or

1192
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 8: anything like this. You know, they're they're going to understand this.

1193
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 8: That's why I'm not completely bought in. Over the years

1194
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:36,799
Speaker 8: that it was, you know, people have talked about everything

1195
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 8: from the royal family all the way down to some

1196
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 8: infamous surgeons that are out there, and butchers and barbers

1197
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 8: as well. Because barbers did minor surgeries. That's why you have.

1198
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 5: The barber pole the color of the barber pole.

1199
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:53,799
Speaker 8: Because that was indicative they could do minor surgeries for years.

1200
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:56,840
Speaker 6: So you could go the barbers were also doing you

1201
01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 6: get here.

1202
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, they would do rudimentary surgeries on people. Uh

1203
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 8: so yeah one stop shop, get your hair trimmed, and hey,

1204
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 8: yeah we can you take this boil off my neck,

1205
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 8: bleed me, you know, get the get the humors out

1206
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:11,600
Speaker 8: of my body.

1207
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 9: Uh.

1208
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:14,760
Speaker 8: They would do leeching too, you know where they put

1209
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,200
Speaker 8: the leeches on the body. So yeah, and all of this,

1210
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 8: you know, kind of played into it is a different world,

1211
01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 8: you know, So we can't look at this through the

1212
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:25,040
Speaker 8: eyes through our modern eyes, you know, when you begin

1213
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 8: to consider, you know, who may have done this. But

1214
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:33,040
Speaker 8: even by that standard, what happened to these poor victims

1215
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:37,559
Speaker 8: was something that shocked them to that point, and we

1216
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:39,799
Speaker 8: have to make it a point. There were five women

1217
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 8: that are credited him, and these are actually referred to

1218
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 8: as conical women, like the cannon. Okay, the basic think

1219
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:52,240
Speaker 8: about the Cannon of the Bible, that the conical women.

1220
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 8: There are other deaths that happened, but people have not

1221
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,880
Speaker 8: been able to necessarily credit him with them, and there's

1222
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 8: still questions as to whether he can be credited to

1223
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 8: all five of these.

1224
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 3: All right, I didn't know that. It's also said that

1225
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 3: the bodies of these women were left in the streets

1226
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 3: or those cribs, right, And cribs were the places where

1227
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:19,680
Speaker 3: you know, these women would hang their hats, so to speak. Right,

1228
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 3: they were little root lodging rooms, right, Yeah, and they

1229
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:31,479
Speaker 3: would or he would place those organs carefully, and so

1230
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 3: he didn't take those organs, he removed.

1231
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 5: He left them at the scene, so just.

1232
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 4: Sort of laid them out at a design or just

1233
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 4: laid them out next to them and some.

1234
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 5: Yeah them out.

1235
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:46,439
Speaker 8: Yeah, And for my thought, I've actually had. I had

1236
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 8: a drug hit one time that I worked with a

1237
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 8: guy that was well. He had part of the male

1238
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 8: anatomy removed by drug gang and they were placed adjacent

1239
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 8: to his head and there was no other injuries on

1240
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:04,120
Speaker 8: the body. And that was meant to send a message.

1241
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 8: It was also shock value to That's what I think,

1242
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 8: you know, like, why would you do this? Because some

1243
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 8: people are trophy takers, they'll walk off right, they'll hang

1244
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 8: on to it, some people ingest it. You know, it's there,

1245
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 8: are all kinds of things. But if you're leaving it

1246
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 8: there for the police and in their victorian mind, this

1247
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:25,600
Speaker 8: would be so oh my god, this would be so shocking,

1248
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 8: you know, to them to see this done to a

1249
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 8: fellow human being. And he's trying to get people's attention

1250
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 8: with this.

1251
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,840
Speaker 3: You mentioned the barber thing, and so I wanted to

1252
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 3: ask you about this barber that they found.

1253
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:38,240
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1254
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 3: So this this historian, his name is Russell Edwards, and

1255
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 3: he claims to have identified Jack the Ripper and he

1256
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 3: says the Jack the Ripper is Aaron Kusminski.

1257
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:48,720
Speaker 5: And guess what.

1258
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 3: He was a twenty three year old Polish Jewish barber

1259
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,960
Speaker 3: living in the Whitechapel District during those during that timeframe,

1260
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:02,600
Speaker 3: and it's based the identification and king from DNA analysis

1261
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:08,160
Speaker 3: of a shaw found near one of the victims, Katheryn Eddos,

1262
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 3: which reportedly matched both Kuzminsky and.

1263
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 5: The victim.

1264
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:19,879
Speaker 6: Wearing around the shoulders.

1265
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 8: Interesting story behind the shawl, at least how it comes

1266
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:26,960
Speaker 8: down from this historian is that can you imagine this

1267
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 8: the story I'm gonna lay out to you, can you

1268
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:32,320
Speaker 8: imagine this happens today? One of the sergeants, one of

1269
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 8: the bobbies all right, that was at the scene, that

1270
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:38,639
Speaker 8: was probably in charge, the supervisor, he took the shawl

1271
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 8: from the scene. That's a value of piece of evidence. Well,

1272
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 8: it turned out that they discovered and the thing was

1273
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:48,800
Speaker 8: actually passed down through this this guy's family. That's how

1274
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:53,559
Speaker 8: this historian acquired it. They did the testing on the shawl,

1275
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 8: they found what they believed was seminal deposition and it

1276
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 8: came back to this guy. Another interesting little fact is

1277
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 8: that this guy lived way beyond these events. He actually

1278
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 8: died in a mental institution. They're in England, so you know,

1279
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:14,920
Speaker 8: he really he you know, obviously had some kind of

1280
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:18,080
Speaker 8: psychopathology and whether or not you can put all that

1281
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 8: because there's no there's no way. It's just like today

1282
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 8: when you think about chain of evidence. There's no way

1283
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 8: to ensure the provenance of the shawl. And it's a

1284
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,160
Speaker 8: great story, is fascinating.

1285
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 3: Because it wasn't like sealed and an evidence locker somewhere.

1286
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,799
Speaker 3: It was in somebody's family and he, this historian, bought

1287
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:42,760
Speaker 3: it from that family. And so it is a controversial thing.

1288
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:45,720
Speaker 3: It's this is not an official thing. This is just

1289
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 3: this historian that says it's this guy. Because there you know,

1290
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:53,679
Speaker 3: he's saying it's one hundred percent in his book. And

1291
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:57,679
Speaker 3: but the findings have received a lot of skepticism from

1292
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 3: experts regarding the method, methodology, and the validity of the

1293
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:06,240
Speaker 3: DNA testing something.

1294
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 8: Else that's that's been stated as being one hundred percent.

1295
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 8: There have at least been three authors that I know

1296
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 8: of that have claimed that their father was the killer.

1297
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 3: Do you know I get those? Yeah, I get those

1298
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 3: all the time too. My grandpa was Zodiac. I get

1299
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 3: all the time in my email. Everybody wants their family

1300
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 3: member to be one of them some reason. It's very

1301
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 3: very interesting.

1302
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:29,240
Speaker 8: I just want to be related to Jesse James. I

1303
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 8: mean I don't understand. I don't want to be associated

1304
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 8: associated with well, I guess it was a serial killer.

1305
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:38,759
Speaker 3: But you know, what is interesting though about this finding

1306
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 3: is from an historical context kind of perspective, is that

1307
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:47,160
Speaker 3: this barber, Chrismisky, he was considered a suspect by police

1308
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:50,479
Speaker 3: at the time of the murders. So don't you think

1309
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:51,320
Speaker 3: that's interesting though?

1310
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 2: The contents telling that his and one of the victims DNA.

1311
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:01,000
Speaker 2: I mean, that's obviously what makes it right, It's very compelling.

1312
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 8: Yeah, I would like to know if they tracked down

1313
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 8: his his descendants in Poland, or if he you know,

1314
01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 8: if he had some that had migrated to the UK,

1315
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 8: and or even the conversation was like when they knocked

1316
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:19,040
Speaker 8: on their door, exactly you had a distant relative that

1317
01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 8: died in the mental institution.

1318
01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:22,559
Speaker 6: You know.

1319
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:24,640
Speaker 8: The first thing was Adam, he was a barber. We

1320
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 8: got some question or we got some comments, we've got

1321
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 8: some we've got a story to tell.

1322
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:32,040
Speaker 3: Well, and it's it's worth noting too that they didn't say,

1323
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:34,559
Speaker 3: you know, his full name. They just referred to him

1324
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:38,280
Speaker 3: in their like list of suspects as Kusminski. So maybe

1325
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,080
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, but It's just an interesting little

1326
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:43,479
Speaker 3: tie back, I guess.

1327
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, and a lot of people have actually tied there

1328
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:50,479
Speaker 8: were comments that were made about and this always comes

1329
01:16:50,520 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 8: up in conversation, it seems like, but there was a

1330
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 8: thread of anti semitism. Oh but you know the thing

1331
01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 8: about it is is that there were people in the

1332
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,720
Speaker 8: royal family that were accused as well. So I don't

1333
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:04,479
Speaker 8: think that holds water here either. There are a variety

1334
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:08,000
Speaker 8: of people, you know, Hi, like real high insurgeons that

1335
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:10,840
Speaker 8: were accused as well, So I don't know.

1336
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 3: Well, we appreciate your insight, Joseph. Thank you so much

1337
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:17,000
Speaker 3: for joining us. Anyone interested in more true crime forensic

1338
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 3: deep dives you can find them on Joseph's amazing hit

1339
01:17:19,720 --> 01:17:24,040
Speaker 3: podcast Body. So, thank you so much, Joseph, because I've

1340
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:25,760
Speaker 3: been wanting to kind of talk about that barber so

1341
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:29,320
Speaker 3: you kind of made my night. I appreciate it, h

1342
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:30,160
Speaker 3: you did.

1343
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:30,519
Speaker 10: Yeah.

1344
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:32,880
Speaker 3: Always coming up next, it's time to get some of

1345
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:35,639
Speaker 3: your talkbacks, returning the show over to you can't wait

1346
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:37,320
Speaker 3: for that, and I hear we have some good ones.

1347
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 3: Keep it Ray or True Grime Tonight.

1348
01:17:49,240 --> 01:17:52,599
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

1349
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:54,240
Speaker 5: Courtney Armstrong.

1350
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 2: I am here with the Body move In and producer

1351
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:03,559
Speaker 2: Taha and listen. If you have missed any part of

1352
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:05,760
Speaker 2: the show, do not sweat it. You can always catch

1353
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:09,639
Speaker 2: it as a podcast. And we always want to hear

1354
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:12,680
Speaker 2: from you. And we read all the dms and all

1355
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 2: the posts so you can always get with us. On socials,

1356
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:18,519
Speaker 2: we are at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and

1357
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook, and

1358
01:18:24,439 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 2: I say, Boddy, what do you think?

1359
01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 5: Get right into a couple of talkbocks.

1360
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 3: I want to hear from the people.

1361
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:32,960
Speaker 10: Hey, this is Lisa from Pittsburgh. No yins love the

1362
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:35,840
Speaker 10: science part, so maybe we can all refresh ourselves and

1363
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:39,120
Speaker 10: the listeners on the Stanford prison experiment. There's a made

1364
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:42,680
Speaker 10: for TV movie on TV and it's a great reminder

1365
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:44,679
Speaker 10: for us all. I won't say anything else.

1366
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 3: Girl, what's the name of the movie.

1367
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:49,640
Speaker 6: Oh, I know, we're gonna have to look into the.

1368
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 3: Movie, Lisa Yansan, you forgot to tell me what I'm kidding, Lisa,

1369
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:56,000
Speaker 3: I'll look at that.

1370
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 5: Yeah. The Stanford experience super interesting.

1371
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:04,760
Speaker 3: It's it's really kind of it recreated the exact conditions

1372
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:07,120
Speaker 3: that allows abuse to flourish.

1373
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:08,599
Speaker 5: Right it was.

1374
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:12,520
Speaker 3: It was in the early seventies, and it was a professor,

1375
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:18,040
Speaker 3: and he wanted to study how ordinary people behave when

1376
01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:21,960
Speaker 3: put into positions of power, or when people get their

1377
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:25,080
Speaker 3: all their power taken away from them. And he turned

1378
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 3: the basement of Stanford's Psychology building into like a make

1379
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 3: believe mock prison of sorts. And he recruited twenty four

1380
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:42,360
Speaker 3: psychologically fit male college students, okay, and they were assigned randomly.

1381
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:45,439
Speaker 3: Twelve were to be prisoners and twelve were to be guards.

1382
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:47,839
Speaker 3: And he was kind of like the warden of it, okay,

1383
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:49,960
Speaker 3: which is a flawed experiment he's.

1384
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:51,880
Speaker 5: Inserting himself into anyway. Right.

1385
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 3: It was supposed to last, I think, a couple of weeks,

1386
01:19:56,640 --> 01:20:01,160
Speaker 3: like two weeks, I think, but it only lasted six days.

1387
01:20:02,040 --> 01:20:05,560
Speaker 3: And it only lasted six days because guards began abusing

1388
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 3: their power super fast. They started performing you know, sleep

1389
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:16,599
Speaker 3: deprivation on the prisoners, forced exercises, They started you know,

1390
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 3: doing verbal abuse with them, humiliating them. They prisoners became

1391
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 3: like depressive, submissive, they were very anxious, they had emotional breakdowns.

1392
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:34,360
Speaker 3: And as those things were happening, guards escalated their abuse,

1393
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:40,720
Speaker 3: and so with the professor acting as that prison superintendent,

1394
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:44,600
Speaker 3: it really blurred like ethical boundaries and he wasn't He

1395
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 3: didn't stop the abuse when he should have. And if

1396
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 3: I remember correctly, I think one of the student's girlfriends

1397
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:54,120
Speaker 3: or wife, I think turned it all in because it

1398
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:56,719
Speaker 3: was becoming too much. But it really kind of shows

1399
01:20:56,760 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 3: you how, you know, these are the exact conditions where

1400
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:03,800
Speaker 3: he flourishes because nobody was trained, you know, nobody had

1401
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:05,040
Speaker 3: any ethical boundaries.

1402
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,280
Speaker 5: It was kind of like Lord of the Flies, right,

1403
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:10,400
Speaker 5: just like tonight with that's.

1404
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 6: Right seeing tonight though, so as an ordinary person just

1405
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:17,799
Speaker 6: suddenly they're all on the same level, but that particular

1406
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 6: group becomes the more abusive party. Right.

1407
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 5: So yeah, this is it's very interesting.

1408
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 3: It would be interesting to cover one night actually because

1409
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:29,559
Speaker 3: it's very with a psychologist maybe even I think that.

1410
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:31,040
Speaker 5: Was Oh, I would love that idea.

1411
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:35,639
Speaker 2: And I think what the talk back was referring to

1412
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 2: was maybe a twenty fifteen it's actually a thriller film,

1413
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:45,719
Speaker 2: not a documentary, the Stanford Prison experiment with Billy Crudo,

1414
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:51,040
Speaker 2: and it is on to be you said, so check

1415
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:52,679
Speaker 2: that out.

1416
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 3: Not a I'm not an expert in anything really, but

1417
01:21:57,240 --> 01:22:00,599
Speaker 3: the Stanford experience. It's so interesting. So I definitely want

1418
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:02,120
Speaker 3: to watch it, don't you know they made a movie.

1419
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:05,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, until just now, But I'd love to bring an

1420
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:08,559
Speaker 4: expert on who yeah, knows a lot about this and

1421
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:10,719
Speaker 4: maybe we can dig into it because it can touch

1422
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 4: on things like police brutality and how other areas that

1423
01:22:13,920 --> 01:22:17,240
Speaker 4: we cover. Quite frankly, I see some parallels with ice

1424
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:21,040
Speaker 4: virtual ice that we've been talking about right now, so well,

1425
01:22:21,080 --> 01:22:21,519
Speaker 4: and that's.

1426
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:23,759
Speaker 3: Actually a really good point. I needn't think about that, taha,

1427
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:27,600
Speaker 3: because like you know, I have kind of opined that

1428
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:30,320
Speaker 3: I think ICE doesn't really have any really good training

1429
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 3: and de escalation techniques and you know, things like that.

1430
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:35,880
Speaker 3: And you know, this isn't something that I'm just pulling

1431
01:22:35,880 --> 01:22:38,080
Speaker 3: out of the air. These are things that law enforcement

1432
01:22:38,160 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 3: professionals have said, correct. So you know, that's a really

1433
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:42,320
Speaker 3: good point.

1434
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:47,560
Speaker 2: Do you guys know about the Milgram experiment.

1435
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:50,680
Speaker 5: I don't, I know what so that was.

1436
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 2: It's kind of often talked about in the same conversations

1437
01:22:54,840 --> 01:22:56,600
Speaker 2: as a Stanford prison experiment.

1438
01:22:57,080 --> 01:23:00,560
Speaker 5: And I remember this from literally high school psychology.

1439
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 2: But so the psychologist Stanley Milgrim, he had an experiment

1440
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:12,920
Speaker 2: where teachers they were the volunteers.

1441
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:15,360
Speaker 5: They would administer what they.

1442
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:20,519
Speaker 2: Believed to be shocks to quote students, but the students

1443
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:24,640
Speaker 2: were actors, and basically so that the volunteer. You know,

1444
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:28,200
Speaker 2: I I'm the volunteer, and I'm the teacher and body

1445
01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 2: you're the student.

1446
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:31,679
Speaker 5: You're an actor, but I don't know it, and you get.

1447
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:37,439
Speaker 2: Questions wrong, and I continue to shock you more and more,

1448
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:43,120
Speaker 2: and the actors have had increasing responses recorded that they're

1449
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:46,120
Speaker 2: in pain, but the participants continued.

1450
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:49,439
Speaker 5: Just because some guy in a lebe let's.

1451
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:53,519
Speaker 3: Say about us as human beins, does that mean does

1452
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:56,760
Speaker 3: that apply that we're just cool by nature that?

1453
01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:00,360
Speaker 2: Or you know, is it part of it because you

1454
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:03,840
Speaker 2: know there's someone telling you who's wearing a white coat.

1455
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:08,839
Speaker 2: It like, do we feel like we have to respond

1456
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:13,839
Speaker 2: to power and then use that power ourselves.

1457
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:16,880
Speaker 5: When we have it, even though you know, discomfort? So

1458
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 5: I think I could do that. I think I would.

1459
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:22,320
Speaker 3: I would listen if you're an authority figuring listening to you,

1460
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:24,160
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like, that's just too You're

1461
01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 3: not I'm not like, okay, we'll do the opposite.

1462
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:32,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, I mean, maybe I'm like some of

1463
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:34,920
Speaker 4: the people involved with it, Like I think if someone

1464
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 4: authority is saying this is the right thing to do,

1465
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 4: I don't know that.

1466
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:41,559
Speaker 6: That's an odd interesting experiment.

1467
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 4: Would you guys ever partake in any kind of experiment

1468
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 4: like this?

1469
01:24:45,360 --> 01:24:45,840
Speaker 6: What would you do?

1470
01:24:45,880 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 4: I thought of it with the mole with you there's

1471
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:52,320
Speaker 4: a little bit of right.

1472
01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:53,040
Speaker 3: That's true. Yeah, I didn't think of thanks for Yeah,

1473
01:24:53,080 --> 01:24:56,519
Speaker 3: I didn't think about that. What I would I participate

1474
01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:56,760
Speaker 3: in this?

1475
01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:57,280
Speaker 5: I don't.

1476
01:24:57,520 --> 01:24:59,400
Speaker 3: I don't know that I would. I feel like I'm

1477
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:00,599
Speaker 3: very fraud mentally.

1478
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:04,800
Speaker 5: I don't know I can handle it. Would you.

1479
01:25:07,240 --> 01:25:09,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's an interesting question because the people going in,

1480
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:13,920
Speaker 2: I don't think they had any idea of what it would, Yeah,

1481
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:15,160
Speaker 2: you know, turn into.

1482
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:21,440
Speaker 5: But I don't I think I I think I would.

1483
01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:24,560
Speaker 2: I'd be I'd be curious, you want to be curious experiment?

1484
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:25,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I would.

1485
01:25:25,600 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 3: Actually, if I was the one pressing the button, then

1486
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:32,960
Speaker 3: maybe I was the one to receive the pain.

1487
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:33,960
Speaker 5: No, I don't know.

1488
01:25:34,240 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 4: Would Yeah, he'd be happier if you're the guard, but

1489
01:25:37,040 --> 01:25:39,720
Speaker 4: not the definitely not the prisoner, right, Yeah, I would.

1490
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:42,160
Speaker 2: Again, they were you had to sign up and then

1491
01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:43,360
Speaker 2: you were assigned randomly.

1492
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 5: That's true. So you go in and I don't even

1493
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:47,240
Speaker 5: don't know.

1494
01:25:47,960 --> 01:25:48,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's the.

1495
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:51,519
Speaker 5: It's just an economic terms.

1496
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:54,559
Speaker 6: Anyway, we'll dig into that one a little more.

1497
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 5: No, I like that.

1498
01:25:56,120 --> 01:25:57,680
Speaker 3: I would, I would, I would love that. What do

1499
01:25:57,760 --> 01:25:59,400
Speaker 3: we have next? Not to talk back?

1500
01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:02,719
Speaker 11: Hi, guys, I'm just listening to the episode from tonight

1501
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:06,000
Speaker 11: and you were talking about the recent shooting in Minnesota.

1502
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 11: I don't think that everybody realizes that when that agent

1503
01:26:09,640 --> 01:26:12,080
Speaker 11: took the weapon and started to walk away, that he

1504
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 11: discharged that weapon, and I think that's what caused the

1505
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:17,599
Speaker 11: other agents to start shooting. So if you go back

1506
01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:20,759
Speaker 11: and watch the video, you can see that that weapon

1507
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:22,360
Speaker 11: is being discharged. Thank you.

1508
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:25,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people, a lot of people are

1509
01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 3: looking at that. In Department of Homeland Security has said

1510
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:33,400
Speaker 3: that they're investigating that to see if that's even possible.

1511
01:26:33,439 --> 01:26:36,360
Speaker 3: But I don't know really how much they would really

1512
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:39,360
Speaker 3: need to investigate, because they have the weapon, they have

1513
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:41,720
Speaker 3: the magazines that have the clip, they can count the

1514
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:44,720
Speaker 3: number of bullets in the gun. Oh that's right, and

1515
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:47,559
Speaker 3: so and I've watched the video frame by frame by

1516
01:26:47,560 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 3: frame by frame by frame, and I do not see

1517
01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:51,200
Speaker 3: that weapon discharging.

1518
01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, I didn't see that, not that yet. Closer did.

1519
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:58,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do not see that weapon discharging, but I

1520
01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:01,280
Speaker 3: could see how that could be possible. They hear, they hear,

1521
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:04,280
Speaker 3: you know, they're in this kerfuffle, they hear a gun

1522
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:06,679
Speaker 3: go off in the panic. Now, if that's the case,

1523
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 3: my point still stands, they need better training. And if

1524
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 3: that's the case that he discharged the weapon, he has

1525
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:15,160
Speaker 3: terrible trigger discipline.

1526
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:17,719
Speaker 6: Right, Like, why would you discharge it that moment?

1527
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:21,880
Speaker 3: That's it's But if you look, it looks like his

1528
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:26,760
Speaker 3: hand is making a fist around the the you know,

1529
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:29,320
Speaker 3: where you hold the gun, the grip. It doesn't look

1530
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:31,839
Speaker 3: like his fingers anywhere near that trigger.

1531
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:35,160
Speaker 6: Mm hmm. Yeah.

1532
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:38,160
Speaker 3: So but I do understand what you're saying. It's just

1533
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:39,880
Speaker 3: not a fact.

1534
01:27:41,320 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that with over time having been looked

1535
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:45,840
Speaker 2: at by so right, angles.

1536
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:49,799
Speaker 3: And Department of Homeland Security said they are investigating this situation.

1537
01:27:50,240 --> 01:27:52,200
Speaker 3: So we'll listen, we'll find out.

1538
01:27:52,360 --> 01:27:56,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, this is well, this resonated with a lot

1539
01:27:56,760 --> 01:28:00,640
Speaker 4: of people into a heavy.

1540
01:27:59,160 --> 01:27:59,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's general.

1541
01:28:00,280 --> 01:28:01,320
Speaker 5: It's been having whome right.

1542
01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 6: I was just saying to another friend, I'm.

1543
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:06,800
Speaker 4: Like, I've seen three people executed on television in the

1544
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:07,639
Speaker 4: past six months.

1545
01:28:08,080 --> 01:28:11,040
Speaker 6: I can't. We need uh, I don't know.

1546
01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:13,519
Speaker 4: We need a therapist or somebody to come back on

1547
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:16,639
Speaker 4: and help me balance myself or something.

1548
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:18,200
Speaker 6: But yeah, I don't know.

1549
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 4: I'm hoping this is the last of some of this

1550
01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 4: horrificness that I'm going to be seeing for a while.

1551
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:29,400
Speaker 6: But somebody in Arizona, oh god, yeah.

1552
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:31,120
Speaker 3: I don't know the details of it though, so I

1553
01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 3: can't really say anything. I just know that somebody was

1554
01:28:33,439 --> 01:28:36,200
Speaker 3: shot in Arizona today by ice agents. I don't but again,

1555
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:37,680
Speaker 3: I don't know the situation.

1556
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:43,160
Speaker 4: Because I'm wondering if the Pretty family has can they

1557
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 4: take legal action?

1558
01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:45,320
Speaker 5: I'm sure they will.

1559
01:28:45,479 --> 01:28:47,760
Speaker 6: Oh yes, okay, I'd love to.

1560
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:50,320
Speaker 4: Maybe we'll unpack some of that with Jared Tavarrow and

1561
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:52,000
Speaker 4: see what his thoughts are on it.

1562
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:55,240
Speaker 6: But but yeah, we have so much to cover with him.

1563
01:28:55,840 --> 01:28:57,040
Speaker 6: We need we.

1564
01:28:57,080 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 3: Have a stacked list of questions him.

1565
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 5: Right that night, Time for another one. Let's go for

1566
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:04,439
Speaker 5: one more, all right?

1567
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:13,440
Speaker 2: I just caught myself saying, which is a Taha coined term.

1568
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:18,599
Speaker 4: I don't even recall saying it, but I do say

1569
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:22,400
Speaker 4: that I don't even I don't know Sam and Adam.

1570
01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:25,120
Speaker 6: Like I said, I really do that.

1571
01:29:25,320 --> 01:29:28,400
Speaker 4: Okay, I need to either work on that or think

1572
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:31,000
Speaker 4: twice about it. Is it an excitement over a story

1573
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:33,000
Speaker 4: or I don't even know when I say it.

1574
01:29:33,240 --> 01:29:36,360
Speaker 3: When I see Taha, like in a in a panicked

1575
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:39,760
Speaker 3: mode situation, like right before the show is starting, it's like,

1576
01:29:40,439 --> 01:29:42,519
Speaker 3: I have I have the Okay, so what you just

1577
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:44,160
Speaker 3: did with your hands? So what he does is he

1578
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:47,720
Speaker 3: fans his hands out like above his head and shakes them.

1579
01:29:48,000 --> 01:29:52,719
Speaker 5: Okay, that's Taha. Okay, it's the best. Every time I think.

1580
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:00,840
Speaker 6: It's obvious. When I'm stressed, I'm often.

1581
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:03,160
Speaker 4: Said I would be the worst poker player in the world,

1582
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:04,680
Speaker 4: because I mean I've played, and.

1583
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:06,519
Speaker 5: It's very obvious you played poker.

1584
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:10,479
Speaker 4: I mean I've played you know, Blackjacker, simple games, but

1585
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:10,960
Speaker 4: you can.

1586
01:30:10,840 --> 01:30:12,519
Speaker 6: Tell immediately when I get a good card.

1587
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:18,920
Speaker 4: I'm like, well, imagine sweating, sweating all of the cliches

1588
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:20,120
Speaker 4: that you would expect to happen.

1589
01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 6: So yeah, I will.

1590
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 3: I'm imagining you at like a poker table in Vegas.

1591
01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:28,240
Speaker 3: You know, it's a cigar and a martini and but yeah,

1592
01:30:28,479 --> 01:30:29,639
Speaker 3: and being totally cool.

1593
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 5: I can't.

1594
01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:30,519
Speaker 3: I can't.

1595
01:30:30,560 --> 01:30:33,519
Speaker 5: I really can't see you the poker face.

1596
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:37,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've actually learned how to deceive people with the

1597
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:39,400
Speaker 4: opposite though, Like, because it's so obvious that you know

1598
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 4: what you should.

1599
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:40,840
Speaker 5: Do, I haven't.

1600
01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:42,639
Speaker 3: Okay, I have an idea because I think you could

1601
01:30:42,680 --> 01:30:45,800
Speaker 3: be a really good poker player. Okay, if you if

1602
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:47,360
Speaker 3: you were just smiling the whole time.

1603
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:52,040
Speaker 6: Right, no matter what I got, no matter what. Right,

1604
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:53,400
Speaker 6: that's good.

1605
01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:55,920
Speaker 3: Because you would naturally smile. I don't know if you

1606
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:59,680
Speaker 3: know that you naturally do smile all the time, like

1607
01:30:59,840 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 3: you and when when we're Courtney and I are talking

1608
01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:04,960
Speaker 3: about the most disgusting things, You're over there clocking away

1609
01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:06,320
Speaker 3: and your keyboard, and you got a big smile on

1610
01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:09,679
Speaker 3: your face. So I feel like if you just sat

1611
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:12,320
Speaker 3: there and you had your cards with your martini, I

1612
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:15,519
Speaker 3: can totally see it. I'm just smiled. It would disarm

1613
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:19,200
Speaker 3: the entire poker like table, because when you're playing poker,

1614
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:21,759
Speaker 3: you're not playing against the dealer necessarily, you're playing against

1615
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:22,200
Speaker 3: the table.

1616
01:31:23,080 --> 01:31:27,400
Speaker 5: Right, that's it. I would disarm everybody. I think, listen,

1617
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:27,960
Speaker 5: do you play?

1618
01:31:28,040 --> 01:31:28,760
Speaker 6: Do you both play?

1619
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:29,759
Speaker 11: I don't.

1620
01:31:30,400 --> 01:31:31,599
Speaker 6: Oh no, I don't.

1621
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:33,559
Speaker 3: I can't gamble.

1622
01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:35,000
Speaker 5: You know what I played?

1623
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:37,960
Speaker 3: I played poker this weekend actually, and I were you

1624
01:31:38,040 --> 01:31:39,880
Speaker 3: really profited two dollars?

1625
01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:48,760
Speaker 5: I'll do yeah, Tik taks On Adam. We play very

1626
01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:52,040
Speaker 5: uh yeah, very timid games of poker. None of us

1627
01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:54,040
Speaker 5: are very but yeah, but it's fun.

1628
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:55,479
Speaker 6: My son.

1629
01:31:55,600 --> 01:31:59,880
Speaker 5: The last time my son was home sick, we played poker.

1630
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:00,680
Speaker 2: Take you.

1631
01:32:01,320 --> 01:32:01,519
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1632
01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:04,719
Speaker 3: When I first moved to Las Vegas, I was working.

1633
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:06,839
Speaker 3: I got a job and I got my first paycheck

1634
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:08,360
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, I'm gonna go. I was

1635
01:32:08,439 --> 01:32:11,000
Speaker 3: twenty one. I was literally twenty one, and I was like,

1636
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:13,280
Speaker 3: I'm going to go gamble a little bit. And my

1637
01:32:13,360 --> 01:32:15,639
Speaker 3: paycheck was really small. It was like seven hundred bucks,

1638
01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:18,160
Speaker 3: but it was all I had. Okay, I spent the

1639
01:32:18,479 --> 01:32:22,719
Speaker 3: entire Okay, casinos casher paychecks for free for any reason. Okay,

1640
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:27,120
Speaker 3: my whole paycheck was gone. I was like crying and

1641
01:32:27,160 --> 01:32:28,879
Speaker 3: screaming and throwing up in the bathroom.

1642
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:30,120
Speaker 5: I was like, what have I done?

1643
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:33,320
Speaker 3: So I do not gamble because you can't live, in

1644
01:32:33,479 --> 01:32:35,679
Speaker 3: my opinion, I cannot live here in gamble.

1645
01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, that would really be a liability. I think that's

1646
01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:40,880
Speaker 5: so smart of you.

1647
01:32:41,160 --> 01:32:44,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I will, I will never do that again.

1648
01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:46,960
Speaker 3: But I was like, oh what what another one hundred dollars,

1649
01:32:46,960 --> 01:32:47,559
Speaker 3: I'll get it back.

1650
01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:50,960
Speaker 6: You know, I kept thinking that it's gonna I got it.

1651
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:51,639
Speaker 6: I got this one.

1652
01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:56,800
Speaker 3: No, no, no, seven hundred bucks, my whole paycheck, my

1653
01:32:56,960 --> 01:33:01,400
Speaker 3: first one ever down. One of all the lessons folded

1654
01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:03,639
Speaker 3: into that, like the leaders of lessons.

1655
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:06,200
Speaker 5: No man, learn it hard, learn it once.

1656
01:33:08,280 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 8: And well.

1657
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:10,200
Speaker 5: Tonight was great.

1658
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:12,519
Speaker 2: It was so great to be with you guys as always,

1659
01:33:12,560 --> 01:33:16,400
Speaker 2: and to have Joseph and tomorrow you already know half

1660
01:33:16,439 --> 01:33:21,400
Speaker 2: of our questions for Attorney Jared Farentino. He's gonna help

1661
01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:24,920
Speaker 2: us unpack the gag order in the Ashley Buzzard case.

1662
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:29,280
Speaker 2: That's the mom charging her daughter's death, and lots more

1663
01:33:29,960 --> 01:33:33,080
Speaker 2: so true crime tonight, be good or be good at

1664
01:33:33,160 --> 01:33:33,200
Speaker 2: it