WEBVTT - Part Two: Mark Fuhrman: The Most Racist Cop, or Merely Normal Racist Cop? 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.200 All Zone Media. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:09.840 Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about the 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:13.600 very worst people in all of history. This week, we're 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.319 on part two of our episodes on the recently and 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.080 lamentably departed Mark Furman, who, now that we've gotten to know, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.520 you know, the mood has turned sober here in the 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.720 Behind the Bastard's studio because Sophie and our guest for today, 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.800 Joe Kasabian, are all overwhelmed with grief. 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:35.600 At the Titan that we've lost. 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.040 You know that that is no longer with us, the 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:42.080 great mind, the great heart, the great law enforcement officer, 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:44.840 Mark Furman. You know, I don't know, it almost feels 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:45.640 pointless to go on. 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:46.960 Why are we here? 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:52.000 I'm really happy though, that in death that he can 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.800 be you know, the United States' newest gender neutral bathroom. 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.080 That's right, that's right, Yeah, find out where they put him. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.240 We're in Idaho, Yeah, the only gender neutral bathroom in Idaho. 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:07.920 Just if you see a graven an Idaho, piss on it, 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:09.119 it might be Mark Furman. 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:09.640 It might. 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.960 Somehow, our hearts will go on and on and on. 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.040 Let's talk about the ship, Robert, talk about the oj trial. 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:20.280 I'm excited let's. 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.200 Talk about We Love the oj Trial. If you want 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:28.360 to watch the documentary starring Ross from Friends as Robert Kardashian, 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:29.800 you know, we'll wait for you. 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:31.959 But I can. 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.959 I can replicate the best parts. Just imagine Ross from 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:38.559 Friends saying juice over and over again, and you pretty 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:39.920 much got the important bits. 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:40.360 You know. 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:45.760 I'm I'm really happy that Ross from Friend's career could 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:47.760 go so well. He ends up doing brown face to 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.160 play an Armenian guy because surge from system of down 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.080 one answers phone. 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.920 I do think what is really funny to me about 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.720 that is they they had Cuba play oj Gooding Jr. 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:05.200 And it's a weird case of like the casting doing 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.360 a lot of the acting because I can believe that 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.360 Ojy's evil because Cuba Gooding Junior is really. 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:14.160 That's true. 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:16.400 It was a very like like, oh wow, a lot 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.520 of the liftings just being done by like, I know 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:20.079 who Cuba Gooding Junior is. 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.280 H Yeah, they nailed it on that one. They just 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.200 had no idea, great idea. 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:33.000 Yeah. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.480 So let's talk about Mark Furman. By the early nineteen nineties, 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.520 Mark Furman was a veteran LAPD detective who seems to 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.400 have been somewhat popular and influential among like his at 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:45.760 least his clique. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:46.679 In the department. 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:50.359 Mark was known for making racist and sexist jokes and. 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:50.600 For his. 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:53.080 He's got a hobby. 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:55.680 What what kind of hobby do you think a guy 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.240 who like joined the Marines because he like idolized violence 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.120 and never got overnock to go to war and then 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:02.639 became a cop, what kind of what do you think? 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.600 Like one of his hobbies is what do you he collects. 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:09.200 Ship stamps. I'm gonna go stamps. 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:14.760 I no, it's it's memory, it's military memorabilia. 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.320 I was going to I was going. 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.440 On, I know these guys. I fucking know these guys. 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.120 I am a historian by trade. And every time you 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.600 meet a guy, every fucking time, every time, oh I 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.360 collect some military memorabilia, I'm like, it's Nazi shit, isn't it. 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.840 It's always it's always, and. 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.800 They'll always tell you like you don't even have to 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.280 come on to them because they're so defensive. And that's 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.360 true with Mark, because I I noted I'd read like 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.119 two articles that had said that, oh, he got into 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:49.320 like collecting like military old military uniforms and awards and 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.200 so I wondered. But that's all they said, Like they 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.960 didn't like say anything like accuse anything. But in his 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.320 own book, when Mark's saying and like, yeah, I liked 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.440 collecting old military stuff quote some of which happened to 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:07.000 be German, I was like, no one even said that, Mark, 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.520 no one was even asking, And you just brought it 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:11.920 up because you knew, because like you knew what we knew, 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:13.960 you know, and you had to confirm it for us. 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:15.040 That's very funny. 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.240 That's a direct A to B Like no pop is collecting, 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.680 like you know what, I got really into the Imperial 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.360 Japanese Navy, which, to be fair, is not that much 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:24.880 of a better of a choice. 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:28.400 Not like you're still like you're going to one thing specifically. 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.960 There's not an LAPD detective who's like, yeah, I'm just 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.360 really interested actually in like the differences between the prop 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.919 like the Austro Hungarian military proper and then like the 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.560 actual like Hungarian military, and the ways in which these 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:45.000 kind of like differing uh, like forces within the same 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.920 state clashed and I like to collect items that sort 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.560 of embody that clash and like, no, it's always just 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:51.159 Nazi shit. 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.160 Oh no, you misunderstand to me, Sir, I am simply 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.200 a enthusiast of the Hanvent Militari. 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:06.840 Sure, yeah, yeah, so one of his favorite cartoons because 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.240 he also likes he loves to collect political cartoons, like 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.200 newspaper cartoons. He's a big cartoon guy, and he has 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:13.960 like a lot, a bunch of them displayed at his 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:15.240 desk at any point in time. 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.080 This is relevant because when the O. J. 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.720 Simpson case blows up, and whether or not Mark Forman's 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.600 a racist becomes an important matter for reasons we'll discuss later. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.640 People are like, he always had a swastika at his desk, 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.640 like a cartoon of swastika, like displayed prominently, like a 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:32.800 taped and like displayed or something up like paste it 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:36.120 up at his his workplace, and people thought that was weird, 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.560 and so in his autobiography Mark had to be like, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.400 that's bullshit. I didn't have a drawing of a swastika. 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.000 I mean, yes, there was a swastika in a drawing, 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:47.480 but it was from a political cartoon by an artist 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.599 called Paul Conrad, and the cartoon was like a swastika 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.080 rising up out of the ashes of the recently collapsed 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.279 Berlin wall. I haven't actually been able to find this cartoon, 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.440 but here's this is Furman's explanation for what Conrad was 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.359 going for with the cartoon. Conrad was asking whether we 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.479 were making a mistake by allowing a country with the 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:08.440 power and history of Germany to be reunified. So that's 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:10.280 that's why Furman was like, and that's why I liked 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.200 the cartoon, As you know, I thought it was asking 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.920 a poignant question, and this is obviously what it meant. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.279 And that's why there was a swastika at my desk 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.560 and I don't buy it. I don't buy it. And also, 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:25.000 that's not what the cartoon was about. Okay, again, because 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.240 Google so fucked up the I didn't find that cartoon, 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:29.680 but I didn't find an article that interviewed Paul Conrad 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.400 about that cartoon because it came up during the Simpson 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:35.520 trial and the New York Times reached out to Paul 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.920 Conrad and asked for comment, and Paul gave a very 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.880 different explanation for what that comic meant. So again, Mark 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.000 is like, obviously it means that, you know, maybe reunifying 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.360 Germany is a mistake because of the Nazis. Here's why 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.360 Paul said he made that comic. Following the fall of 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.760 the Berlin Wall in nineteen eighty nine, Spanish, Italian and 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.000 other European workers were sent back to their home countries 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.360 to create jobs for the East Germans. Out of this 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:58.839 came the rising up of the Neo Nazis, the Skinheads, 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:01.080 or whoever you wish to refer to them. My statement 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.240 was in protest and anger that the downing of the wall, 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.119 hopefully producing freedom for all of Germany, had in fact 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.880 given rise to the tortured thinking of the past. That's 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.960 not the same that's not the same same statement. Yeah, 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.080 he is talking about like the visible rise of the 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.160 Skinheads and how that like upset him and stuff, and. 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:20.360 Mark is mad. 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:22.000 I know when the wall fell, people were just worried 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.640 the Nazis were coming back. And there's just a difference 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:26.480 between those two things. I guess it doesn't matter much 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.400 in the context of the court case, but it's interesting 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:28.600 to me. 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.720 And then think of the the the mental pathways that 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:37.800 lead a sergeant, I guess and the LAPD to look 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.000 at that and like, this is something that needs to 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.400 be on my desk because it says something so ponia 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.720 and powerful about the reunification of Germany. 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.320 Yeah, I don't know, kind. 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:55.400 Of weird, Mark, kind of weird. So probably the thing 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:57.960 that Marx Piers at the station knew best about him 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:02.040 is that he had some issue with women. He'd lied 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.280 about much of what he told that journalist, you know, 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.080 McKinney and the tapes that we talked about last episode. 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.119 But Men against Women, the group that like he talked 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:14.240 about founding, was a real organization within the LAPD that 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:18.000 has been like independently reported on now. It was never 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.320 an officially recognized group, obviously, but it did appeal to 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:24.360 a large number of male officers, and there's internal documentation 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.800 that not only did the department brass know that Men 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.360 against Women existed, but that they knew Furman was the 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.760 ring leader behind starting it. So the group began with 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.880 Mark and several other older male cops complaining about split tales, 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.200 which was a cop slur for female cops. And I 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.920 don't know when it started. Most of the Mark we 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.640 usually say like eighty five, which is like right when 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:47.880 he got back onto patrol, Which is weird that he's 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.440 got like the social cloud that he's like starting this group. 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.720 But maybe this is him distracting from his own disgrace 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.880 by like trying to rally everyone to attack the lady cops. 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:57.280 I don't know. 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.040 Prior to nineteen ninety seven, the only evidence that this 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.080 group existed was those taped interviews of Mark Furman, and 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.760 initially Marked claim that these had been lies, blustered to 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.840 feel cool. But after the oj Simpson case, the lapd'd 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:13.600 conducted an investigation into the tapes and into sexism and 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.680 racism within the LAPD, and they came to some shocking 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:19.920 conclusions about the group Men against Women. Per an la 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.679 time summary of that investigation, members of the group believe 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.319 there was no place for women in the LAPD. Members 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.040 would act aloof to female officers, ignore them, and try 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.520 to get them into trouble during their probationary periods after 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.719 joining the department. In some cases, the actions of the 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.600 group inhibited some women from safely and effectively performing their 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.360 duties and created fear in many women that these male 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.960 officers would not provide backup if they requested it in 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:43.480 the field. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:44.440 The report said. 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.240 Further, there was evidence that the Men against Women officers 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.320 would ostracize male officers who did not support their boycott 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:51.600 against female officers. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:54.160 That's kind of what I would expect. 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.680 It's the same thing of like whenever we talk about 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.400 black or Latino cops. I feel like, no Mark Furman 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.679 is an a racist? Is I think of the blowback 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.120 that they would get if they didn't say that, you 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:10.079 know what I mean, Like, this is how these institutions work. Yeah, 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.920 even I'm sure there's a fair amount of dudes who 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:14.840 came forward. So no, Mark Furman is a stand up 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.880 dude that had been called slurs by him or been treated. 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.960 Like shit, but they were like this than blue line. Yeah, 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:24.880 and that's why they because they bring in a woman 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:26.960 cop who had nice things to say about him, and 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.680 that like, no, I always trusted him. And the fact 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:35.080 of the matter is like, this is a guy who 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:39.800 inside the LAPD was known and had been repeatedly investigated 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:43.760 for like being a sexist asshole, and the fact that 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.640 nobody did anything about it is proof of the fact 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.520 that it wasn't weird, right, right, It wasn't that. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.240 Same with him, you know, casually saying the N word 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.160 all the time constantly. 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:00.760 Yeah. So that ninety seven report revealed that men against Women, 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.160 the existence of this group found in the mid eighties 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.319 was exposed to the top brass to like the people 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.360 running the department in nineteen eighty six when they held 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.520 it like the LAPD holds a closed investigation. So they're 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.800 investigating this because women have complained about this group within 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.760 the department, but it's they're not like telling anyone, and 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.000 they're not going to publish the results of the investigation 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.800 because that might be how to inform people. Yeah, exactly 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.840 after this closed investigation, the department chose to take no 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.520 action and continued their investigation into why women were being 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:36.120 harassed in their department for almost a decade. So there's 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.920 a wider investigation like why are women in the LAPD unhappy? 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.640 And there's also an investigation into the group men against women, 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:45.240 And the Department's like, well, there's nothing to do there, 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:46.959 but it's going to take at least another ten years 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:48.640 to find out why lady cops are unhappy. 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:49.760 No way to know, sir. 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.800 Impossibly they're connected. 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.320 So investigators would later conclude that a major reason that 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.400 all of this went down was that most police superviss 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:05.080 did not consider female officers being harassed as a problem. Right, 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.520 this isn't an issue, and often these superiors are members 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:09.959 of men against women themselves. 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:11.480 Quote from the. 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:15.040 Report, supervisors had such close relationships with the officers who 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.480 are harassing the women that it made it difficult for 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.600 the women to lodge complaints. The report said. In some cases, 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:24.280 the supervisors worked with or for subordinate male officers on 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:28.400 off duty business ventures. Furman's supervisors not only allowed him 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.120 to act out his prejudices, but they accommodated him by 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.360 allowing him to select his partners and other separatist working conditions. 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:39.200 The report said, So again, this Mark is racist. This 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:43.439 group is racist. His supervisors support it. It's widely popular 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:47.120 with a lot of men who react to Mark forming 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:51.560 this male supermacist group by letting him avoid working with women. Like, 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:56.880 the department isn't just allowing this, They're actually modifying their 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:01.400 rules in order to accommodate Mark and other people like him. 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:02.520 Yeah, Mark One, I. 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.920 Love the laped Yeah. Well for now, Mark One, it's 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.800 not gonna be a lasting victory. Joe as to talk about. 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:11.880 So here's where I got to do something though, And 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.160 I gotta say something I don't normally say on this show, 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.839 which is that I don't know if this if Mark 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.600 is as responsible for this group as this report makes 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.000 it sound, because Mark would claim to have founded the group, 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.120 and the report says he founded the group, and I 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.320 don't know that. I doubt that in particular. I just 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:32.920 really don't want that to lead you to think that 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:37.280 Mark is the ringleader here, because this makes their angle 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.720 is Mark is manipulating everyone. Everyone falls into line around Mark, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.720 as opposed to I think Mark is servicing a need 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:48.400 and desire by his peers, and that's why they accommodate him, 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.560 because he's giving them what they wanted, right, And I 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.680 think that's an important caveat. So that ninety seven report 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:57.800 doesn't make the LAPED look good, but again it does 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.240 kind of portray Mark specifically as a guy unique toxicity 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:05.760 warped the environment around him. In fact, as much as 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:09.440 this report portrays Furman as a deeply poisonous influence. The 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.600 same year it was released, nineteen ninety seven, Mark puts 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.640 out his own book, Murder in Brentwood, which I've quoted 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.160 from a few times. And in that book he includes 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.280 a letter that LAPD chief Daryl Gates sent his mom 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:25.480 in nineteen ninety five during the OJ Simpson trial. And 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.600 here's a line from that letter, I too, am very 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:30.160 proud of Mark, and I know he has done his 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.160 job proudly and properly and very effectively, perhaps too effectively 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.200 for the oj defense lawyers. And so if Mark is 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.200 this uniquely toxic individual who warped the environment around him, 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.760 why is the police chief saying he's a great detective 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:49.000 who did his job perfectly. Why is everyone accommodating and 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:54.320 working with him? Again, Like, don't trust that format, you know. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.120 Yeah, I think there could be a few things to it, 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:01.920 like you said, and I it's the thin blue line 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.840 at work where he can be on video or tape, 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:10.560 like he is routinely saying slurs, admitting to crimes. 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.000 That he then says he was bullshing about. 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.120 Like, but every cop is going to line up and 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.440 be like, no, he's perfect, He's our perfect little boy. 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.200 It doesn't matter what the evidence says. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:18.840 Yep. 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.080 So I think I think there's a little bit of that, 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:23.960 a little bit of him being you know, a misogynistic, 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.560 racist piece of shit, and a little bit of him 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:32.040 servicing an organizational institutional need for someone to take the 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.440 reins to lead the misogynistic piece of shit club. 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.200 Yeah, yeah, exactly, And someone like I can see also, 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.600 wise bosses might have wanted someone deniable to lead the 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.960 harassing club that makes women want to quit the job, 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:45.400 like they want less women cops to. They like it 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.680 being there because it makes them want to leave, but 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.280 they don't want to be get in trouble. They don't 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.560 want that stank on him. You know, Mark, the chief 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:54.400 of police may be doing that shit. He has actual 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:54.960 work to do. 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:56.400 Yet Mark do it? 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:01.920 Yeah, So that LAPD report concluded the type of sexual 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.560 harassment used in West Los Angeles was about power, pure 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.280 and simple. In short order, Furman exerted that power over 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:10.600 the younger, less experienced, and therefore more vulnerable female officers. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.800 Furman's power grew every time he made an unchallenged sexist 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.240 comment and role call, every time he blatantly ignored a 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.240 female officer, every time he resolved a field situation for 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.920 a female officer, and every time his behavior was reinforced 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.240 by his supervisors, such as deploying him with only male partners. 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.160 As his power rose, his ability to influence the peer 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:30.280 group grew until it was Furman who set the tone 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:35.480 for the watch, not the supervisors. And shit is that 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.800 because he was just so powerful? Is that because the 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.360 supervisors again figured it's better to let Furman take the 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.760 heat for making doing these things that we want done, 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.440 but I don't want to be responsible for doing That's 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:49.440 my contention. 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.520 I think it's probably both, Like I think the supervisors, 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:57.360 the the higher ranking people want him in those positions 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.200 to be the fall guy, but also kind of, like 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:02.280 we've already said, he's a bit of a charismatic dude. 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:07.040 People do like him, and he isn't altogether terrible at 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.480 his job of being an LAPE. 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.760 Of being an LAPD officer. Yeah, so exactly. 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.720 I think the two things are kind of, uh, you know, 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:18.399 it's like a remor on a shark, you know what 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:22.000 I mean. Yeah, Like the one leads to the other 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.679 one feeds the other. Like the supervisors want him to 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:26.639 do this, but at the same time, the supervisors wouldn't 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:31.080 pick him unless he was popular enough to pull it off. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.760 Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, unless like he was really liked 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.879 and respected widely, which is you know, something you just 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.600 have to realize as you go through this, And the 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.320 other thing you have to realize is that life is 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:49.000 completely meaningless and just absolutely devoid of joy or light 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.120 without the sponsors of this podcast and the many products 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:53.440 and services that they provide. 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:55.800 Many people are saying this. 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:06.240 And we're back. Thank god, life matters again. You know, 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:11.880 without ads, what do we have nothing? You know, that's 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.119 that's it, that's the only reason to be that. And 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.440 hearing about Mark Furman, I don't know. 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:22.280 That's very important to me personally. I love hearing about 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:22.960 dead cuts. 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:23.440 Yeah. 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:28.320 Yeah, so as good a case as all of this makes, 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.960 you know, especially that laped report makes remark being a 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:35.000 bastard again, I don't buy the centrality of just him 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.120 quite as much as they want to put it out right, 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.720 because he's not just a poisonous worm. He's a worm 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.920 who's been poisoned by the other I don't know, sick 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.119 worms in the apple or this analogy was a mistake, whatever. 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:50.200 I just want to highlight because after the oj trial, 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.280 the LAPD has a strong vested interest in cutting firm 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.440 and off like a tumor. They're going to blame a 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.760 lot of their culture problems on him, as many of 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.720 them as possible, and that's not really accurate. Or you know, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.880 he's a symptom, he's not the cause. Environmental audits performed 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.080 on the LAPD in the nineteen nineties uncovered systemic gender 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:10.399 bias issues, not just in West la but across the 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.080 entire department. Penny Harrington of the National Center for Women 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:18.160 in Policing said this at the time. Widespread sexual harassment, intimidation, 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.479 and threats against women on the force remain a serious 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.000 problem on the LAPD, a problem made worse by the 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.639 apparent complicity of the top command. So during the mid 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:29.760 nineteen eighties, Men against Women was said by Furman to 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.359 have had one hundred and forty five members in five 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.639 out of eighteen of the department's police divisions. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:36.760 So there's one hundred and forty five cops. 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.280 In the he meant woman haters club of the LAPD 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.720 in like eighty seven. And maybe he's lying. I don't 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.720 know what the real numbers were. I don't even know 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.080 if they had like a roll call or whatever. 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:50.639 I can't imagine they did. 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:53.639 Yeah, And it's kind of it's hard for me to 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:55.480 tell because he's just getting back to patrol duty in 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:57.600 the mid eighties. I don't know how much of this 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.359 he's judging up. I will read I'll read a quote 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.840 from the Christian Science Monitor kind of summarizing his claims 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.560 about how this group worked and like what they did, because, 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.520 as I said, they're holding trials. They have like tribunals 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.000 for male officers who are like nice to girls, Like 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.320 it's the saddest fuck it. I'm just gonna read this 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:21.679