1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both. 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,319 Speaker 1: This week, we're talking about a topic that not only 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: has kept me up late at night, but I think 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: is one of the biggest threats we face to our society, 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: to our democracy, to who we are as a people. 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: And that's the spread of disinformation. Now, the first time 8 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: I became aware of this was during the election of 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: I really did not understand it, and it was only 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: after I saw how outright lies and conspiracy theories and crazy, 11 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: unbelievable stories could take hold on the Internet, on social 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: media platforms and change how people thought and behave. I'm 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: talking today to two people who have seen the dangers 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: of disinformation up close, and they are doing everything they 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: can to stop it. I'll speak with Maria Ressa, a 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: journalist from the Philippines and a personal hero of mine. 17 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: She has risked her own safety and freedom by reporting 18 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: on President du Terte's corruption and propaganda campaigns, and she's 19 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: an important warning for the rest of us. The rapid 20 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: fire spread of online disinformation that has happened is happening 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: in the Philippines. You know what can happen anywhere, especially 22 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: here in the US. But first I'm speaking with Tristan Harris. 23 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: You may have seen Tristan in the Netflix documentary The 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: Social Dilemma. He's been called the closest thing Silicon Valley 25 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: has to a conscience, and he's the co founder of 26 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: the Center for Humane Technology, which is working to help 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: us realign technology so that it actually helps people. I 28 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to Tristan because I met him shortly 29 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: after the sixteen election, and he was able to describe 30 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: to me what had happened during that election in a 31 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: way that I didn't understand before. And he has been 32 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: sounding the alarm in every way that he knows about 33 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: what is happening to all of us because of the 34 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: way social media platforms run. I have to start by 35 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: just asking you to give a little bit of background 36 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: for our listeners, because although you're now one of the 37 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: leading global critics of the way major tech platforms contribute 38 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: to a toxic online ecosystem, you worked in the industry 39 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: for years. You were really on the forefront of a 40 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: lot of the technological developments that were now coping with. 41 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: Could you give us a little background. Yeah, So, you know, 42 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: I went to Stanford and studied computer science at the 43 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: time when many of my colleagues later became the new 44 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: heirs of this new tech ecosystem that we're now building. 45 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: I started a technology company myself called Apture, which was 46 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: later Talent acquired by Google. And I say that just 47 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: to have maybe the listeners understand that I don't come 48 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: to this wanting to tear down the entire project of 49 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: technology or be a sort of dystopian leadite. There's very 50 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: specific critiques of technology that we have to fix and 51 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: that have totally warped the collective psyche of humanity. But 52 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: hopefully for people to understand that, you know, I came 53 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: to these conclusions that we'll get into through first saying, 54 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: you know, how do we build technology that helps the world, 55 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: and seeing my friends start there and then end up 56 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: in this kind of perverse race for human attention. Because 57 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: that's really what changed in two thousand eleven two twelve. 58 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: Many of the people who were my friends in technology 59 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: had gotten into it because we thought we could make 60 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: the world better and build things that would improve the 61 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: state of the world, and increasingly everyone was just getting 62 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: trapped in this game for who what can I dangle 63 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: in front of people's nervous systems to get them to 64 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: come back more and more often. How can I turn 65 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: things into more of a slot machine? How can I 66 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: add more social validation? What if I could get people 67 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: addicted to getting attention from other people. I remember when 68 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram added the feature that allows you to 69 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: follow people so you could have followers. That was an innovation, right, 70 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: the idea that suddenly I have, you know, an increasing 71 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: number of people who are listening to me every day, 72 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: and I want to log back in every day to 73 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: see did my follower account go up? They got all 74 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: of us addicted to getting attention from other people, which 75 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: is really the root of many of the troubles that 76 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: we see today. When you now look at where we 77 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: are in technology, how do you think we got there? 78 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: I think it's very much a product of decision after 79 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,119 Speaker 1: decision that we didn't know what road we were walking down, 80 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: and discovering much later the harms and I think being 81 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: wrong philosophically about the narratives we were telling ourselves. For 82 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: so long, people thought technology is this this neutral tool. 83 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: I mean, after all, the Facebook, it's like you choose 84 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: your friends, you chose the things you clicked on, You 85 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: chose the things you liked, commented and shared. So why 86 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: would we call Facebook responsible for radicalizing the world or 87 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: something like that? And what that, mrs. Is the asymmetry 88 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: of power where they are really the ones orchestrating and 89 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: pulling the puppet strings of why would certain things show 90 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: up to you in the first place, why would certain 91 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: groups be recommended to you? I think this came because 92 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: we let these algorithms run out of control. It really 93 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: was this race for attention figuring out you know, if 94 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 1: Facebook's looking at TikTok or Instagram competing with it. If 95 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: they don't do say live video or add Facebook groups 96 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: or add auto play and the other guys are, they're 97 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: gonna lose. And that's why we call it this race 98 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: to the bottom of the brainstem, a race to the 99 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: retilian brain, to the kind of automated decision making. And 100 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: that's really I think what got us here, and I 101 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: think what radicalized an entire population leading to things like 102 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,679 Speaker 1: the January six event. Right? Was it this work that 103 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: led you to begin your understanding of how these applications 104 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: and these uh deliberate designs to capture attention truly making 105 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: it an addiction began to make you question what was happening. Yeah, 106 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: I think there's really two ingredients to my own kind 107 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: of waking up process. One was this earlier work I 108 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: did as part of this class at Stanford called the 109 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: Stanford Persuasive Technology Class, where the co founders of Instagram 110 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: and again many of the other alumni in the tech 111 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: industry learned from a certain body of work about how 112 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: do you make technology more persuasive, how do you pull 113 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: on these invisible lovers in the human mind, much like 114 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: a magician. You know, in the film The Social Alenement 115 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: we talk about my magic background. I was a magician 116 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: as a kid, and so I got really interested in 117 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: how do people's minds work. What are the predictable ways 118 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: that our attention can be fooled, that we can be 119 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: led to make meaning of the coin move from that 120 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: hand to that hand. But maybe that's not true. We 121 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: make false conclusions all the time, and I saw that 122 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: was one of the ingredients and what I saw technology 123 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: was doing. Then getting to Google, I first started off 124 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: again as this kind of optimist, but I felt increasingly 125 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: concerned about where the whole industry was heading. This kind 126 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: of social media craze. Everyone was building more and more 127 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: addictive app with more and more notifications buzzing your phone. 128 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: And I made this presentation at Google after kind of 129 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: having my own questioning process, and I was kind of 130 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: just broadcasting my own questions and concerns. I wasn't trying 131 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: to tear down the company or do a whistleblower type thing. 132 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: I just made this presentation basically saying, never before in 133 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: history have fifty designers in California, mostly white, young engineering. 134 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: You know, male minds from twenty to thirty years old, 135 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: shaped a billion people's daily psychology. We are holding the 136 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: collective psyche of humanity in our hands and we don't 137 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: even know what we're doing. And obviously, with leading to 138 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: more distraction, it's weakening relationships. This is back in two thousand, 139 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: two twelve. That presentation went viral when I was a 140 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: product manager. Unexpectedly, I thought I might get fired for 141 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: the presentation and was prepared to leave if I had to. 142 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: But instead, and again to Google's credit, actually they ended 143 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: up giving me a little position, a carve out position 144 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: to research. But I didn't know what else to call 145 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: it except design ethics. How do you ethically design the 146 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: psychological experience of other people, and I really did research 147 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: for several years. I tried to change things from the inside, 148 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: but ultimately I had to leave because, as I'm sure 149 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: we'll get into, the business model of capturing attention is 150 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: the fundamental thing that all of these companies are trapped in. 151 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: Where you know, Facebook stock price, Google stock price, YouTube 152 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: stock price depends on growing the amount of attention that 153 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: they have every day, every year from users. In a 154 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: funny way, even though people have been on these platforms 155 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: now for more than a decade, I'm not sure a 156 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: lot of them really understand the underlying business model, how 157 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: it's financed, and how in effect they are commodities. Every 158 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: single person who goes on one of those platforms is 159 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: being used, and our data, our privacy, the security of 160 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: our personal information, all of it is being commodified. Yeah. 161 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: You know, in the film The Social Dilemma, we quoted 162 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: the line that if you're not paying for the product, 163 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: then you are the product. So you know, how much 164 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: have any of us paid for our Facebook account recently? Well? Nothing? 165 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: And how are they worth almost a trillion dollars of 166 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: market cap because they're selling the predictability of our attention? 167 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: They're selling the manipulatability of our mind their business models advertising. 168 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: Now again, if people are enjoying this, it's very hard 169 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: to identify where the concern is. But if we don't 170 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: look way out and sort of see how is the 171 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: whole system behaving it's actually polarizing us, then we're really 172 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: in trouble. Because one other aspect of a business model 173 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: that relies on attention is which news feed would work 174 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: better at keeping your attention? One that personalizes the information 175 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: to you, so every time you scroll your finger, it 176 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: gives you a next post that says this is why 177 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: you're right and the other side is wrong, versus a 178 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: news feed that does not personalize information to you. Well, 179 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: the personalized news feed is gonna work better at keeping 180 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: your attention. So then you take the shared truth and 181 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: it shreds it into three billion Truman shows where we're 182 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: each more and more confident and certain of our view 183 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: of reality. And it's done that for everyone, which is 184 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: really emphasized tribalism, polarization, and broken down our capacity to 185 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: talk to each other, which I think is the ultimate 186 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: concern about Where this leads to is if we don't 187 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: have a shared reality or the ability to have a 188 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 1: conversation with shared understanding. We can't solve any problem with 189 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: our climate change or racial injustice or COVID. Also, what 190 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: we know from analyzing the top postings on Facebook and 191 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: other kinds of metrics for social media is that the 192 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: most sensational, the most controversial, you know, the most conspiracy 193 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: minded forms of disinformation are going to capture the most attention. Yeah, 194 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: which is really an extension of problems that we've been 195 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: familiar with around yellow journalism and sort of salacious you know, 196 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: putting car crashes and killings on the front pages of newspapers. 197 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: But this extends it because it's now automated by machines. 198 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: You know. One study we have on their Ledger of 199 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: Harms website, on the Humane Technology website is that there's 200 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: a study about Twitter that for each word of moral 201 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: outrage that you added to a tweet, it increased the 202 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 1: retweet rate by In other words, if you use the 203 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: more a negative emotional language, the more indignant resentment, the 204 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: more look at these hypocritical you know that kind of thing, 205 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: the more retweets you get. If you have a system 206 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: that's profiting indiscriminately from whatever against the most attention, you know, 207 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: using that logic, imagine you're driving down a freeway and 208 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: Facebook is looking at what people look at while they're 209 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: having on the freeway, and everybody looks at the car crash. Well, 210 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: according to that logic of Facebook and Google, the whole 211 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: world must want car crashes. So we made a philosophical 212 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: mistake that what we look at is what we want 213 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: or what's good for us. And really it's almost the 214 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: worst of us. It's almost the the inmates are running 215 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: the asylum. But the inmates are are the human amygdala, 216 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: the fear and outrage center of the brain, and that 217 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: has become the choice making basis, the basis of authority 218 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: in our society, in our information system. Well, when you 219 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: look at where we are right now and you think 220 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: about what is it we could be doing to try 221 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: to reign back in the operations of the platforms, and 222 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, without sounding to Pollyannish, try to return it 223 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: more to the original vision of what it was supposed 224 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: to be doing and connecting people, creating community and all 225 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: of that. Are there things that platforms can do on 226 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: their own to change their business model that would make 227 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: them less toxic or is this going to have to 228 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: be imposed on them. This is an incredibly difficult conversation because, 229 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, I actually believe there's a lot of really 230 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: good hearted people who are in the tech industry who 231 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: would like to No one actually wants this to happen. 232 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: I want to make really clear. I think there's not 233 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: a mustache twirling, evil genius who wants to do all this. 234 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: But here's an example of why Facebook, for example, we 235 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: need to put pressure on them from the outside. You know, 236 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: as people are following all these Facebook groups with you know, 237 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: more extremists, uh, you know, militia groups. Facebook is increasingly 238 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: on the hook with public pressure to try to do 239 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: something about these kinds of groups, of this kind of content, 240 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: and that's getting recently expensive for them. They have to 241 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: hire more content moderators, they have to take actions. When 242 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: they take those actions is more political because they get 243 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: blowback from different sides saying you're not taking down this, 244 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: you're not taking down this. So the cost to them 245 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: reputationally are going up. The cost to them in terms 246 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: of hiring content moderators and building integrity teams and monitoring 247 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: for hate speech, all that's going up, and that's getting 248 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: really expensive for them. So one of the things I 249 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: know is happening now that they're in the process of 250 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: moving to an encrypted model where groups and communication are encrypted. 251 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: So they're moving from we didn't know that January six 252 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: was going to happen. Two we can't know. In other words, 253 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: they're making it impossible for them to actually do something 254 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: about these problems because it's too expensive. And the reason 255 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: for that is that their business model makes it impossibly 256 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: expensive for them to moderate all this content. They have 257 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: something like fifteen billion post or messages that are running 258 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: through their system every single day, and they can't hire, 259 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: you know, fifteen billion New York Times journalists to say 260 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: is this credible? Is this true? Is this real? And 261 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: so we're left with the authority of virility. Whatever goes 262 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: viral wins, and that is just fundamentally toxic. So when 263 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: I say what do we have to do about this, 264 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: I think we have to go much deeper. You know, 265 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: is a virility based information environment compatible with democracy? Are 266 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: rules where whatever goes viral wins. It cannot be the 267 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: basis of a society that that defeats climate change, cannot 268 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: be the basis of a society that defeats COVID Now 269 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: when I say that, I don't mean that there's these 270 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: magical authorities that we just have to suddenly switch back to. 271 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: There's good reasons why people, I think are skeptical of 272 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: some of the sources of authority, whether it's you know, 273 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: major news media or the CDC flip flopping on masks, 274 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: or you know, there's things like these reasons that that's 275 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: been debased. But I think we have to ask almost like, 276 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: what would it take to restore warranted trust? And I 277 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: really mean, I wonder if there's even a kind of 278 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: humility movement for the media to sort of self examined 279 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: and say, yeah, hey, you're right, there's reasons why you 280 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: don't trust us on all sides. But what would it 281 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: take to regain and restore trust so that we can 282 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: actually have an information system that is credible? And this 283 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: is an incredibly complex problem, and I think the first 284 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: step is we have to realize that this happened to us, 285 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: and that hopefully is a place we can proceed from. 286 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: But Tristan, is there no way that smart engineers who 287 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: created these algorithms could tweak them or in some way 288 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: moderate them so that there could be a technological fix 289 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: to the virility. The problem is there's no algorithm for 290 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: determining what is true. But there's no keywords or phrases 291 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: that would trigger some kind of reaction. No, and in fact, 292 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: when they try to do it that way, one of 293 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: the things that happened actually after COVID. People don't know this, 294 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: but Facebook actually had to shut down. They lost all 295 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: their content moderators. Because the content moderators used to have 296 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: to go to a physical space, log into you know, 297 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: secure computers, and then do the content moderation posts after 298 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: post coming through the saying is as good are we 299 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: going to remove it whatever? Because of COVID and because 300 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: of safety concerns, they didn't go into the physical offices 301 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: and there was no way to do that work remotely. 302 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: So for the early stages of COVID, Facebook was just 303 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: this big open floodgate where anything went right. So if 304 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: you have this kind of unregulated information environment, you know, 305 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: all the sort of COVID disinformation and misinformation about it 306 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: being related to five G and all these kinds of 307 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: things sort of spread like wildfire. They don't have an 308 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: algorithm for knowing what's true, and increasingly since that they've 309 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: been trying to rely on machines to classify what is 310 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: hate speech, what is a conspiracy, And what it's doing 311 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: is deep platforming hundreds of thousands of people who then 312 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: get further polarized. I have friends who are in no 313 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: way conspiracy theorists or you know, crazy people who are 314 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: actually getting deep platforms because they might be using words 315 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: or phrases that are near people who are maybe you know, 316 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: getting tagged by the system, and that just produces so 317 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: much anger. Now, what could you do? I mean, you 318 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: could decrease virility just not making it so sort of 319 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: hyper fast morality. You can increase friction. For example, Twitter 320 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: did this during the election. When you hit retweet. Instead 321 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: of just letting you instantly retweet, they forced you to 322 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: say something about what it is you are sharing. That 323 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: tiny little step decrease the spread of information. Well, and 324 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: what you just said really concerned me. Also is that 325 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: if Facebook is moving toward encryption so that you wall 326 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: off these groups so that the argument is well, they're 327 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: not spreading it except among people who are already in 328 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: the group, then you're likely to have a different and 329 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: maybe more dangerous breeding ground not only of disinformation but 330 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: extremist behavior. That's right, and it's important to realize also 331 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: that with the global if you think about the users 332 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: who haven't come on to Facebook yet, they're all in 333 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: the developing world. They're all in these other countries that 334 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: have more fragile societies, more fragile democracies, and that Facebook 335 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: doesn't have the content moderators in those languages or have 336 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: the cultural context to do it well. So if you 337 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: think about to Facebook having a system based on content 338 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: moderation and integrity where they have to do all that monitoring, 339 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: that's only going to get more expensive for the remaining 340 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: users they have to bring online, which means that they 341 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: want to stop this problem now and not have that 342 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: responsibility in the first place. So again, this is actually 343 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: going to get more dangerous, not just here in the West, 344 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: but for the developing world, in the global South, which 345 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: often gets the worst of these things. If you look 346 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: at countries like Myanmar or Ethiopia right now that actually 347 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: have massive disinformation problems that are driving up civil wars 348 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: and conflict, and that's, you know, an enormous problem. We're 349 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: taking a quick break. Stay with us. You have a 350 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: great quote that I loved in a couple of things 351 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: you've written. I first saw it when you wrote a 352 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: piece a little over a year ago in the New 353 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: York Times where you quote Edward oh Wilson, who is 354 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: famous for his study of ants and was the eminence 355 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: Greece of sociobiology, and when he was asked whether humans 356 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: would be able to solve the crises that would confront 357 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: them over the next one hundred years, he replied, yes, 358 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: if we are honest and smart. The real problem of 359 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: humanity is the following. We have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, 360 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: and god like technology. And this really does sum up 361 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: what I hear you saying that we've advanced so far 362 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: in technology, but basically our brains are the evolution of 363 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: our capacity has by no means kept up with this 364 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: godlike technology. And it's hard to figure out how we're 365 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: going to be able to rein it in when the 366 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: technology keeps racing. And assuming that we have an administration 367 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: now with the Biden Harris administration, we have interest in Congress. 368 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: If you could wave a magic wand and it's an 369 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: unfair question, but I'll ask it anyway, what would you 370 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: have them do? What three things would you ask them 371 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: to do right now that could at least slow it 372 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 1: down until we could figure out how we're going to 373 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: better control this. Gosh, there's there's so much in what 374 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: you just shared, and I really appreciate you bringing up EO. 375 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: Wilson's quote because I really think that is the problem 376 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: statement that at least guides are work at the Center 377 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: for Humane Technology, because the answer to the paleolithic emotions, 378 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: medieval institutions, and godlike technology is we have to embrace 379 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: and honestly admit and understand our paleolithic emotions that we 380 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: respond to social validation. We have negativity bias, Our minds 381 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: do get pulled and distracted, and it does degrade the 382 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: quality of our attention spans. We have to know that 383 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: about our own minds. We're really one species who has 384 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: the capacity to do this. So I just want to 385 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: say that first, because I think that's the real project 386 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: of being humane means actually a deep embrace an understanding 387 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: of how we really work, even when it's uncomfortable to 388 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: look in that mirror. So that's embracing the first. The 389 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: second is we have to upgrade our medieval institutions from 390 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: the clock rates of being too slow and not appraising 391 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: of the harms of technology as they accelerate and grow 392 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: to have a more frequent understanding and also projecting forward 393 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: the risks that different and new technologies are going to create, 394 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: because as you said, it's not just we have to 395 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: solve today's issues with social media. We have to have 396 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: the first derivative that kind of where is this all going, 397 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: projected into the future, and make sure that in government 398 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: and in our democratic institutions, having strong assessments of where 399 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: these different areas are going, and having some kind of 400 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: collaboration public private partnership maybe to try to make sure 401 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: we're assessing those risks, dealing with the issues, prioritizing them, 402 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: and having adequate democratic process to deal with them. So 403 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: that's the medieval institutions, and then the last is on 404 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: the accelerating godlike technology is you cannot have godlike powers 405 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: without godlike wisdom. Phrase from Barbara Marks Hubbard is you 406 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: cannot have the power of God's without the wisdom, love, 407 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: and prudence of God's god like powers. Be they biotech weapons, 408 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: be they psychological influence, be they split testing. You know, 409 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: trillions of variations of psychological influence and micro targeting cannot 410 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: be wielded by those who do not have the wisdom, love, 411 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: and prudence and care that a God would have. Think 412 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: of if your Zeus and you accidentally bump your elbow 413 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: and don't know your Zeus, you just scorched half the 414 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: earth of the lightning bolt without even realizing it. We 415 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: have these powers of God's and we have to be 416 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: able to have the responsibility and self awareness and frankly 417 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: reign in that power. Now, what does that look like? 418 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: That's a more difficult question. I think we need a 419 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: culture of responsibility. In the tech industry. There should be 420 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: almost a license to practice these kinds of exponential powers, 421 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: and you could lose that license. We have that in law, 422 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: we have that in medicine, we have that in mental health. 423 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: If you think about how much compromising information a technology 424 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: company has on you compared to say a psychotherapist, Like, 425 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: there you are in the psychotherapist room. You're sharing all 426 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: your anxieties, You're sharing all these sort of secret parts 427 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: of your mind and your weaknesses. Imagine that the business 428 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 1: model of a psychotherapist was to turn to the advertiser 429 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: and say, hey, do you want to manipulate Hillary here 430 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: for you know which you just said. That would be ridiculous. Given, 431 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: and they would lose their license if they did that. 432 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: You compare how much a psychotherapist could know about your 433 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: weaknesses to a supercomputer that's been pointed at your brain 434 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: the last ten years, learning every pattern of what you've clicked, 435 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: what you've watched. These things know us so much better 436 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: than we know ourselves. And when you recognize the asymmetry 437 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: of that relationship, there's a compromising amount of information that 438 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: technology companies have on each of us. They cannot have 439 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,479 Speaker 1: a business model that's based on exploiting and extracting from 440 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: that information. So I just say this because this sets 441 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: up the kind of dramatic action that I think a 442 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: Biden Harrison administration we need to take. I mean, if 443 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: you really want to go all the way, you ban 444 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: surveillance capitalism, you ban the micro targeting based business model. 445 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: It has become toxic. It has warped our society. This 446 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: is not a partisan conversation. This is so critical that 447 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: this is beyond partisan. This is a transpartisan, beyond partisan 448 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: topic because it's really narrowed each of our views to 449 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: make it very hard to have a shared understanding of reality, 450 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: and that harms everyone. Whatever it is that you care 451 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: about I want to really zero in on the individual 452 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: because listeners could hear us speaking and just throw their 453 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: hands up and say, well, yeah, okay, it's a mess, 454 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: and yeah they know everything about me. But I'm not 455 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: going to get off of Facebook. I'm not getting off 456 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: of Twitter. I love watching TikTok, you know, so I'm 457 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: kind of you know, in for a diamond for a dollar. 458 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: What could individuals do to take their own attention spans 459 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: back and not only try to have more control over 460 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: their own minds, but also to try to avoid consuming disinformation. 461 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 1: I think what people needed to protect themselves is to 462 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: understand how this works. And I don't mean to self 463 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: promote here, but I think that the film The Social 464 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: Dilemma is a partial antibody or semi inoculation to understanding 465 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: some of the effects. You at least you know what 466 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: you're getting into. My colleague Grenade Arresta actually is the 467 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: one who showed a conspiracy correlation matrix that you know. 468 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: If you're a new mom and you join do it 469 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: Yourself baby Food group on Facebook, which is a great 470 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: tool you can make your own baby food organic baby 471 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: You're great when Facebook when aggressive on recommending groups for 472 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: people to join. It was trying to figure out, well, 473 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: which group could I recommend to these new do it 474 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: yourself baby food moms that would be most engaging for them, 475 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: that would keep them here the longest. What do you 476 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: think was the most recommended group to them? It was 477 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: the anti vaccine conspiracy theory groups for moms. If you 478 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: join that group, then Facebook does the same thing again, Hey, 479 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: what's the most engaging group? I could show people who 480 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: look like that who have joined the anti vaccine moms 481 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: And the next recommendation was q and on gosh, So 482 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: Facebook basically directed these women. Yeah, this was an automated 483 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: system that was finding the kind of conspiracy minded people 484 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: and actually recommending more things just like that to them 485 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: because that's quote unquote what they like or what they want. 486 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: But it's actually not what they want, it's what they 487 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: will be persuaded to click on and to fall into. 488 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: And those echo chambers are so powerful because, as you said, 489 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: you know, when people are inside of these these closed 490 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: echo chambers, like minded people getting social validation and affirmation 491 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: from these crazier beliefs, you can really lock yourself into 492 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: a worldview. And there's a great Reddit channel called q 493 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: and on Casualties where actually a lot of human onbelievers, 494 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: especially post January, are talking about how hard it's been 495 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: for them to sort of snap out of it and 496 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: what that process was. And thank God for this channel 497 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: because it is a story of alumni who are kind 498 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: of all sharing stories of how why do they believe 499 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: us in the first place, and what was it like 500 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: and what did it cost them? And I think that's 501 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: really important. But when it comes to you know, how 502 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: can we live in this system again? The first thing 503 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: is we have to understand what it's doing. We have 504 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: to understand that we are the product, not the customer. 505 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: So if you're using it, just understand the relationship. Every 506 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: time you use it, you have a supercomputer pointed at 507 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: your brain. It does not distinguish between what is true 508 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: versus what just went viral. It is not trying to 509 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: protect you. It doesn't know what's good for you. It's 510 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: just trying to figure out what keeps your attention. And 511 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: so we should use it. If you use it with 512 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: the consciousness that is adequate to understand the perversity of 513 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: that relationship. And I still have a couple of social 514 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: media count even use them very minimally I think using 515 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: it less, you know, spending more time face to face 516 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: with people and actually having conversations, trying to make sense 517 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: of the world with people together. The final question we 518 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: can ask is what is worth our attention? Which is 519 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: a very spiritual and almost very basic question, which is 520 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: what is really worth my attention? What is worth our 521 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: society's attention? What is the cost of not putting our 522 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: attention on the things that we actually care about? And 523 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: I think if you just spend one day away away 524 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: from social media for one weekend, the difference in our 525 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: whole psyche and you talk about our attention spans, we 526 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 1: come back feeling so different. Just to follow up on that, Tristan, 527 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: because I think that's really helpful for people. So how 528 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: do you get your news? You know, there really should 529 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: be more out there. I think on this specause, I 530 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: think that we should see social media is unsafe forgetting 531 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: our political news because it's based sickly just a drama 532 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: snowball machine. It allows you know, the most indignant, you know, 533 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: dramatic hypocrisy and people's anger about hypocrisy to just show 534 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: up constantly, never ending. So I think we have to 535 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: just recognize, you know what we're what we're in for, 536 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: you know, I try to watch and understand views that 537 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: are different from mine. I try to follow lots of 538 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: media from people's different perspectives. There's from wonderful groups out there, 539 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 1: like Braver Angels or Courageous Conversations that are working on 540 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: these deep polarization work. I think there needs to be 541 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: much more funding of that kind of thing. That could 542 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: be something that also we could be government funded, and uh, 543 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: you know, really just un following outrage media, whether it's 544 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: partisan television, you know, I would I frankly, I wouldn't 545 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: watch either MSNBC or Fox News. I just think that 546 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: outrage media is just not healthy for our society. People 547 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: can argue about differences about how they conduct themselves, but 548 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: I just think asking what are really long form, you know, 549 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: understanding based kind of media that actually really do cultivate 550 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: long term understanding. Because also, so much of this is 551 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,239 Speaker 1: just breathing by our brains so fast that you end 552 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: up reading all this new then you say, do I 553 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: even know what I just did for the last hour? Right? 554 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: Your mind sort of feels empty afterwards? Yeah? Yeah, how 555 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: how can I be d program when I don't even 556 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: know I'm programmed exactly. We just we said that in 557 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: the film, which is how do you deprogram yourself from 558 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: the matrix when you don't know you're in the matrix? Now, 559 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: of course each side is convinced that the other side 560 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: is in the matrix, but not at least in the matrix. 561 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: We had a shared matrix and not two billion different ones, right. 562 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: I just can't thank you enough for the work you're doing, 563 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: for your incredibly thoughtful approach to these really difficult issues. 564 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: And I am such a grateful admirer. So I just 565 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: know there are a lot of us in your corner. 566 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: Thank you so much that that means so much to me. 567 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: Tristan Harris is the co founder of the Center for 568 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: Humane Technology. He also co hosts a podcast of his 569 00:29:54,280 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: own called Your Undivided Attention. As Triston pointed out, the 570 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: combination of social media platforms and disinformation has been and 571 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: continues to be hugely destructive in the United States. But 572 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: this combination can cause even greater harm in fledgling democracies 573 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: or outright dictatorships. And no one knows that better than 574 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: our next guest, Maria Ressa. I first crossed paths with 575 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: Maria when she was leading CNN's Southeast Asia bureau. I 576 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: followed her career, and then in twelve, Maria left traditional 577 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: media to create a new outlet of her own, an 578 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: online news site called Rappler. Four years later, she found 579 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: herself reporting on President du Terte, and there was a 580 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: lot to report. He was democratically elected in twenty sixteen, 581 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: and right after that he took aim at the country's institutions. 582 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: He praised martial law and the extra judicial killings of 583 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: people he claimed were connected with drug trafficking. He targeted 584 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: freedom of the press and journalists like Maria, and every 585 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: step of the way, Rappler has been there shining a 586 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: light on it all. In eighteen, Time magazine included her 587 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: in a group of journalists they named Person of the 588 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: Year for bravely holding the powerful accountable. You'd be hard 589 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: pressed to find someone who has experienced disinformation on a 590 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: personal level like Maria has anywhere in the world, so 591 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: I was really looking forward to catching up with her 592 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 1: for an important and timely conversation. Maria, Hello, you know, 593 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: my lord, I have thought about you so often. I 594 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: can't tell you how much my heart is with you 595 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: and everything you're going through Maria. Let me start by 596 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: introducing you to those who may not know you. You know, 597 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: long before Maria started winning international awards and acclaim, she 598 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: was a high school student in New Jersey who then 599 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: went on to Princeton and then went back to the 600 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: country of her birth, the Philippines. And I'd love for 601 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: you to connect the dots for us, Maria, how did 602 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: you go on this life journey that brings you to 603 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: where you are today? Oh? My gosh, A search for home? 604 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: I mean, weirdly, I was looking for home. I was 605 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: trying to figure out who I was. I grew up 606 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: in America, in New Jersey, you know. But while I 607 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: was growing up in the States, I never felt completely American. 608 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: I wasn't as articulate. I was small. I walked to 609 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: the third grade in public school, and I was afraid 610 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: to speak because I spoke the dialog right. So anyway, 611 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: so I find my way home. Six I was here 612 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: on a full break going the other way. That was 613 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: the only way I could have afforded to come home, 614 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: to come to Manila. It wasn't home yet. And then 615 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: when I got here, that's when I realized I'm not Filipino. 616 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: I am very American, and I learned about the Philippines 617 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: through the Noose. I set up the Manila Bureau in 618 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: for seen it. Yes, so so I guess that was 619 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: it right, But it's like the search for identity again, 620 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: like for everyone. When I think about you, I think, 621 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: in a way, you're returning to Manila sort of followed 622 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: the arc of opening up and democracy and hopefulness about 623 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: the Philippines. How would you describe that? So you come 624 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: back and what did you find when you first got there? 625 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: And then how did that evolve? The people power revolt 626 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: in Night six was my introduction to the Philippines as 627 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: an adult. And when I came in as a reporter here, 628 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: I covered the blossoming of democracy in the Philippines in 629 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: all of Southeast Asia. That was the privilege that I 630 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: had being a reporter at that point in time, and 631 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: you felt like, my gosh, democracy is just going to 632 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: steam roll through. So I became a reporter. I watched 633 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: the pendulum swing from one man authoritarian rule in Southeast Asia. 634 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: And then now I would say, at the tail end 635 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: of my career, I begin to see the pendulum swinging 636 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: back and it is horrifying because it feels like the 637 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: search for justice, strengthening institutions, everything I've worked for professionally 638 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: has been thrown out. And the irony of speaking to 639 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton is that as I became a target of disinformation, 640 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: no one has felt that more than you, because in 641 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: the end, the disinformation what technology had enabled this propaganda 642 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: at an exponential scale. The Philippines was one of the 643 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: countries where it was like a testing ground for the 644 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: real target, which is America the elections. We are the 645 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: Petrie dish for Cambridge Analytica. They tested these tactics of 646 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: mass manipulation here and if it weren't they poured it 647 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: over to you because you were the target. Um why 648 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: the Philippines hundred and ten million people? We are now 649 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: six years running. Filipino spend the most time on social 650 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: media globally, really the whole world, the whole world, six 651 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: years running. So even Katie Harbath, who was with Facebook, 652 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: we were doing something together in Berlin, and you know, 653 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: she admitted we were patient zero, and I guess I 654 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: worried that this isn't over, and it isn't over for America. 655 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: It's far from over. I want to circle back to 656 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 1: that because really That's what I want to focus on today, 657 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: is this whole ecosystem of disinformation. But to just again 658 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: sort of enter you and where you are right now. 659 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: What is Rappler? I mean when you found it in 660 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 1: a decade ago, it was scrappy. A lot of people 661 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: didn't give you much optimism about its success. But boy, 662 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: have you made it a real journalistic center. So I 663 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,720 Speaker 1: did six years heading the largest news group. When I left, 664 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: I resigned because I thought technology was taking over and 665 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: that legacy media was not going to be able to 666 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: recover fast enough to take advantage of it. And that's 667 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: what I wanted to do. In in I was writing 668 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: my second book, it's called From Bin Laden to Facebook. 669 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: So I was looking at, you know, if virulent ideology 670 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: that was hijacked by al Qaeda, if that can spread 671 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: through social media, why couldn't the forces for good use 672 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: this new technology? And that was the basis of Rappler. 673 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: We wanted to take yourself phone and be with you, 674 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: and we succeeded at it. But Facebook and the social 675 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 1: media platforms, frankly, they just got too greedy. They find 676 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: too the design of the platform, to the point that 677 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: this thing that was empowering people now became a behavior 678 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: modification system that has been open to geopolitical power places. 679 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: In a thousand cuts the documentary about you and Rappler, 680 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: there are some video of early interviews that you had 681 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: with the then newly elected President to Tarte, who you 682 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: are very respectful toward. You are asking the questions of 683 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: a seasoned, experienced journalist and he seems to be responsive. 684 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: And then as it goes on, if you ask hard questions, 685 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: if you publish embarrassing, inconvenient information that counters what he's saying, 686 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: he becomes more and more hostile and the enablers around 687 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: him are beginning to take it out on you and Rappler. 688 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: So that's a shorthand description of what you've gone through 689 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,399 Speaker 1: with this latest leadership in the Philippines. Yeah, I mean, 690 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 1: let me put it over the last four years right 691 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: and connected to how this was used the influence operations. 692 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: I think in Sten we kept doing our job. We 693 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: we tried to hold Terta accountable for the drug war 694 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: and then the propaganda war. So in the narrative, journalist 695 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: equals criminal was seated. It came up a million times 696 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: bottom up seen President to Artis said the same thing 697 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: top down in his State of the Nation address about US. 698 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: A week later, I got my first subpoena in the 699 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: government filed eleven cases against me and Rappler. I was 700 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: arrested twice. There was one point I got off a 701 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: plane and you know, they bring me into this van 702 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: of the police, but they're they're all wearing swat gear 703 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: like I'm a terrorist. All of the trials begin, I 704 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: get convicted. So I'm convicted for cyber libel for a 705 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: crime that didn't exist when the story we published, a 706 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: story I didn't write, edit or supervise. That's this cough 707 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: gyass moment. So I have ten arrest warrants in less 708 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 1: than two years. That's how the influence operations, information and power. 709 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 1: It acts like fertilizer to allow democratically elected leaders like Luterte, 710 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: who uses the levers of power of democracy to cave 711 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: it in from within. It's like termites eating the wood. 712 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: It still looks solid, but the minute you step on 713 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: it it'll break. Our democracy look strong, but they are 714 00:39:53,760 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: extremely weak. We'll be right back. What do you hope 715 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: that this new Biden Harris administration and other leaders can 716 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: try to achieve to shore up democracy to go after 717 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 1: the termites, you have to think like an Adam bomb 718 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: has gone off in the information ecosystem. It's carnage, right. 719 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,800 Speaker 1: It's going to be impossible to bring this together using 720 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: the old tools that we had, and we must come 721 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,919 Speaker 1: together like the world came together post World War two, 722 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 1: to create new structures of how to deal with this. 723 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: And and the first is to stop the insidious manipulation 724 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: that we are all being subjected to. It is not 725 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: possible to think that the old media ecosystem or the 726 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,399 Speaker 1: old checks and balances are going to work the same way. 727 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: And I'm hoping America takes a need role in this 728 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: because frankly, you allowed American companies to do this globally. 729 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: That's true, So you please do something well, you know, 730 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: it does seem that a few platforms have recognized the 731 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: role that they played in the Stop the Steel movement, 732 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: the insurrection, the attack on the Capitol. They barred Trump 733 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: and Steve Bannon from posting. What do you think about that? 734 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: I mean, too little, too late? You know, there's all 735 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 1: of this, like everyone everyone is talking about it, debating 736 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: of whether it's a free speech issue. It isn't. This 737 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: is a distribution issue. It is, you know it insidious manipulation. 738 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: You wouldn't have had to ban him, the former president, 739 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: if you hadn't allowed it to get to this point. 740 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: It's like how many times can someone lie or insight 741 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: to violence or attack women with impunity? Right? And I 742 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: think that's been the problem globally, is that the social 743 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: media platforms, when it's convenient to them, claim it's free speech. 744 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: It also makes them a lot of money, and then 745 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: when it's not, they take a long time to take action. 746 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 1: I know this firsthand because I have asked for this 747 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: after my conviction. On June, I was attacked again by 748 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: influence operations and they were really you know I've gone through. 749 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: When you get messages for hour, you get used to it, 750 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: Like I'm sure you get used to how to deal 751 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: with criticism. Right. There's valid criticism, and then there is 752 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: criticism that is meant to pound you to silence. It's 753 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: beyond hate speech. It's dehumanizing. It's turning you into a 754 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:54,800 Speaker 1: caricature that breaks down inhibition from otherwise, let's say, ordinary 755 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: people to go after you. And it happens in such 756 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: a short period of time, and it cannot happen without 757 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: a concerted campaign to make it happen. And that's what 758 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand, which you have not 759 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: only reported on, but lived through, Maria. This doesn't happen 760 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: by accident. You know there are bots, these are not 761 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 1: even real human beings that are unleashed to perpetuate the 762 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: lies and the attacks and the undermining and the dehumanization. 763 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: And you know now you're facing what any reasonable observer 764 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: would conclude, our bogus made up charges, all kinds of 765 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: charges against you that could literally lead to your being 766 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: imprisoned for the rest of your life. And they're not 767 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,720 Speaker 1: satisfied with one charge. They have to keep bringing charges. 768 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 1: They have to keep hauling you into court. And as 769 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: you said, the arrest that you faced in the airport 770 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: when you landed, I think from the United States after 771 00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: that very long flight is in a thousand cuts. And 772 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,280 Speaker 1: it's all meant to destroy empathy for you, sympathy for you, 773 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: to try to create this sense that well, you know, 774 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: I always liked her. I thought she was a good reporter. 775 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: But you know there must be something to it. They 776 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,320 Speaker 1: don't make everything up, do they. And as somebody who 777 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: you know has had a million things made up about me. Oh, 778 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 1: yes they do. But what really touches me and and 779 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 1: impresses me but also worries me, Maria, is that you 780 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: keep coming back to the Philippines. You get out on bail, 781 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: and you go off for an event for getting an award, 782 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,760 Speaker 1: for making a speech, and then you come back and 783 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 1: I just am so, you know, admiring but also worried 784 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: about you continuing to come back. But it seems that 785 00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: that's your commitment, that you are going to stand your ground, 786 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 1: so to speak, in the Philippines and not just stand 787 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,760 Speaker 1: for yourself, but stand for democracy, stand for the freedom 788 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 1: of the press. How do you feel though when that happens? Gosh, Um, 789 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: I don't think I have a choice, you know, because 790 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: if I am who I am, and if I believe 791 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: in the standards and ethics and the mission of journalism, 792 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,800 Speaker 1: which I do, then I don't have any other choice. 793 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: And I feel like, you know, you don't really know 794 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,239 Speaker 1: who you are until you're tested, and it's it's up 795 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,040 Speaker 1: to what you compromise that defines who you are. And 796 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,360 Speaker 1: I don't have I've lived my life with no regrets 797 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,200 Speaker 1: and I don't intend to have any regrets. Right in 798 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 1: this one. I have a company that has a hundred 799 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,879 Speaker 1: and some odd people who who are idealistic, who will 800 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 1: do the job, and we keep doing our jobs. We 801 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,360 Speaker 1: just released another exclusive story of corruption in the government, 802 00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,839 Speaker 1: and of course there will be retaliation of some sort. 803 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 1: But it's okay, Maria. I will do everything I can, 804 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 1: through you know, my platforms, to support you, to support Rappler, 805 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,480 Speaker 1: because it's not only about you, as much as I 806 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: admire and respect you, and it's not only about the Philippines. 807 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: It is, as you rightly say, it's about the entire world. 808 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 1: Whether we're going to maintain freedom and truth and an 809 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,720 Speaker 1: ability to talk with one another, to have some sense 810 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,719 Speaker 1: of community to solve common problems like what this pandemic 811 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,840 Speaker 1: has demonstrated is so needed and we need your voice 812 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,399 Speaker 1: and your leadership and your example. And Maria, thank you 813 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: so much for talking with me today. Thank you. You 814 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: can learn more about maria Rests fight for press freedom 815 00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: and against disinformation in the Frontline documentary A Thousand Cuts. 816 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: It's streaming online at PBS dot org, slash Frontline and 817 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: on YouTube. And if you want to help Maria and Rappler, 818 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,839 Speaker 1: you can do so by making a contribution to their 819 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: legal fees. Go to Press Freedom Defense Fund dot org 820 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 1: slash donate. We all have to do everything we can 821 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:30,480 Speaker 1: to protect ourselves and others from disinformation. I don't think 822 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: this is a partisan issue. This is a human issue. 823 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:40,239 Speaker 1: It's a democracy issue, So just stay aware, check your sources. 824 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 1: Don't believe everything you see online or hear from people 825 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:50,359 Speaker 1: in power. You and Me Both is brought to you 826 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 1: by I Heart Radio. We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen 827 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: Russo and Lauren Peterson, with help from Buma Aberdeen, Nikki 828 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:05,840 Speaker 1: E Tour, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, 829 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: Rob Russo, Opal of A, Don and Lona Vlmro. Our 830 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,799 Speaker 1: engineer is Zach McNeice and the original music is by 831 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: Forrest Gray. If you like You and Me Both, please 832 00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: share it with your friends. Let them know they can 833 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: subscribe to You and Me Both on the I Heart 834 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:28,040 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 835 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and see you next week.