Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on
Speaker 1: the BNF podcast. Today we have an interview recorded at
Speaker 1: bnaf's New York summit. Helena Matsa spent the last decade
Speaker 1: working at the Department of State in the US across
Speaker 1: multiple roles, having previously served as the Director of Energy
Speaker 1: Transformation at the Bureau of Energy Resources and Director of
Speaker 1: Climate Diplomacy and Energy Transformation at the National Security Council.
Speaker 1: She was appointed Special Presidential Coordinator for the Partnership on
Speaker 1: Global Infrastructure Investment in January of this year. BNF editor
Speaker 1: Kamala Shelling sat down with Helena for a chat, and
Speaker 1: together they discussed Helena's experience as a diplomat and some
Speaker 1: of the geopolitical challenges she and the US government have
Speaker 1: to face. They also went through the Partnership for Global
Speaker 1: Infrastructure Investment and its aims and goals. Additionally, they discussed
Speaker 1: US foreign policy and its support of foreign nations and
Speaker 1: companies through strategic investment. If you like this podcast, make
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Speaker 1: consider giving us a review. For more information about bnf' summits,
Speaker 1: as well as previously recorded videos from the New York
Speaker 1: Summit or agendas for upcoming summits, head to about dot
Speaker 1: BNAF dot com Forward slash Summit. And now let's hear
Speaker 1: Kamala's chat with Helena.
Speaker 2: You have had a career throughout the State Department. You've
Speaker 2: been a negotiator, you've been a strategist. Tell me about
Speaker 2: your career and how you got to where you are now.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for that question. I always, when
Speaker 3: I'm talking to folks try to remind them that while
Speaker 3: your career sounds like it's a linear, well thought out line,
Speaker 3: often your story is getting written as it's happening. And
Speaker 3: so I found my way to the State Department after
Speaker 3: studying international affairs, spending some time living overseas, and I
Speaker 3: came on board to be the Department Sustainability Advisor. So
Speaker 3: I was actually going around with a small team figuring
Speaker 3: out how to actually make our own embassy operations more efficient,
Speaker 3: so doing smart metering, buying clean power where we could
Speaker 3: demonstrating the best in US technology at our embassies around
Speaker 3: the world. And through that I learned a lot and
Speaker 3: was really interested in spending more time in the policy
Speaker 3: area and came and joined our Clean Energy team at
Speaker 3: the State Department. From there, it's just been a long,
Speaker 3: winding but exciting road of opportunities. So having a chance
Speaker 3: to join our climate negotiation team as we were closing
Speaker 3: the Pairs rule book leading up to Kadaviza, Poland, and
Speaker 3: then beginning this administration at the White House as our
Speaker 3: Director for Climate Diplomacy and Energy Transformation. When I came
Speaker 3: back to State Department and was asked to run the
Speaker 3: Clean Energy team, I was able to bring together a
Speaker 3: lot of different experience and start working on some of
Speaker 3: those really exciting and challenging issues around clean energy supply chains,
Speaker 3: which ultimately led me to my current position working for
Speaker 3: the Partnership for Global Infrastructure and Investment.
Speaker 2: In a negotiator's position or in the position as a diplomat,
Speaker 2: what would you say are some of the top challenges
Speaker 2: that you are facing. You know, we BNF tend to
Speaker 2: focus on the science side, but from a geopolitical angle,
Speaker 2: what do you think are the real challenges that you're
Speaker 2: trying to grapple with.
Speaker 3: Sure, it's a great question, and sometimes it's a little
Speaker 3: bit different in the negotiating room versut when we're out
Speaker 3: there in the field trying to get projects off the ground.
Speaker 3: But ultimately the spirit is the same. You know, around
Speaker 3: these issues, especially deploying clean energy and meeting our climate goals,
Speaker 3: there is always a tension that you need to work through,
Speaker 3: especially as these need to be elevated as national security
Speaker 3: priorities at the same time. And so I find in
Speaker 3: the negotiating room the key is really building alliances, finding
Speaker 3: areas of common interests, which sounds very obvious but can
Speaker 3: be quite complicated. As countries are experiencing really different effects
Speaker 3: of climate change, they've had different roles in getting us
Speaker 3: into the situation we're in. We're all coming at the issue,
Speaker 3: even though it's a shared global challenge with a different
Speaker 3: set of resources, and so I think the trick in
Speaker 3: the negotiating room is figuring out how you bring that
Speaker 3: together and come to a common solution that gives enough
Speaker 3: space to be able to implement in the real world.
Speaker 3: And now where I sit actually figuring out what types
Speaker 3: of projects and interventions make sense in the real world
Speaker 3: that have a really good bang for their buck. Since
Speaker 3: we know that we're always operating with limited public dollars.
Speaker 3: We're trying to bring the private sector along with us,
Speaker 3: and of course we want to answer the development needs
Speaker 3: of the countries we work in in a very ever
Speaker 3: evolving foreign policy space.
Speaker 2: So tell me about where you're sitting now.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So in the last few months, I was able
Speaker 3: to take on a new position as the Deputy Special
Speaker 3: Coordinator for the Partnership for Global Infrastructure Investment. And this
Speaker 3: is a really exciting initiative that our President launched last
Speaker 3: year in partnership with the G seven countries, for US
Speaker 3: collectively and as individual countries to offer better value alternatives
Speaker 3: for structure of investment around the world. When we're talking
Speaker 3: about the geopolitics of the energy transformation, or really just
Speaker 3: the geopolitics of the moment we find ourselves in right now,
Speaker 3: there's really two intersecting revolutions that are happening. One in
Speaker 3: tech where the world is becoming faster and smaller and
Speaker 3: more connected, and one in climate and energy, as the
Speaker 3: clean energy transition shapes the very fundamentals of energy systems
Speaker 3: and food security around the world. And that is a
Speaker 3: big reason why we're leading with a Partnership for Global
Speaker 3: Infrastructure Investment.
Speaker 2: Let's get a little more concrete. There is there an
Speaker 2: example of a project that you've worked on as part
Speaker 2: of the partnership that you think really exemplifies what this
Speaker 2: partnership can do and what it can accomplish.
Speaker 3: I think there are several, and we're actually getting ready
Speaker 3: to announce some of our new flagship projects on the
Speaker 3: margins of the G seven that the President will be
Speaker 3: able to share in just a couple weeks. So I
Speaker 3: will not scoop our own president, but I'll share an
Speaker 3: example that our Vice president actually announced just a few
Speaker 3: weeks ago when she was visiting Africa and Tanzania. We
Speaker 3: have been working with the company or a couple companies
Speaker 3: that are investing in a special economic zone in the
Speaker 3: country to help bring cleaner nickel processing as a hub,
Speaker 3: a value added opportunity for the Tanzanian people to actually
Speaker 3: take advantage of being able to develop their own commodities,
Speaker 3: in this case nickel, but hopefully over time rare earths
Speaker 3: and others. The same time, we're helping facilitate some of
Speaker 3: those connection points with a couple new producing assets and
Speaker 3: trying to ensure that we're supporting companies coming in to
Speaker 3: develop those in a way that's considerate of land and
Speaker 3: labor and environmental stewardship. And at the same time, this
Speaker 3: is a huge priority for the President of Tanzania as
Speaker 3: she's embarking on trying to attract investment or our country.
Speaker 3: So it's one of the ways we marry our development
Speaker 3: priorities with our commercial opportunities. And then of course we're
Speaker 3: excited to see that cleaner battery grade nickel over time
Speaker 3: entering the global market, which is of extreme interests the
Speaker 3: US and so many of our partners and allies.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned nickel, you mentioned critical minerals. This is
Speaker 2: obviously tremendously important for the US right now and for
Speaker 2: the world as a whole, both for our electronics and
Speaker 2: for the energy transition. But mineral mining has so often
Speaker 2: come with tremendous environmental degradation and often human rights abuses
Speaker 2: as well. Do you think it's important to take that
Speaker 2: into account as you're developing these projects and try to
Speaker 2: make sure that the mining processes are environmentally friendly and
Speaker 2: to minimize human rights violations as much as possible.
Speaker 3: Of course, I mean, I think that's why you know,
Speaker 3: every time I have a conversation like this, I start
Speaker 3: off with a version of a joke of like, did
Speaker 3: you ever think a climbate negotiator will find their way
Speaker 3: into the bottom of an open pit mine? I certainly
Speaker 3: did not. But it's for all those reasons we have
Speaker 3: made so much progress, especially in our own country, our
Speaker 3: president moving forward with such impactful legislation, whether it's a
Speaker 3: Biparson Infrastructure Law or Chips Act, and of course the IRA,
Speaker 3: which I'm sure you'll have many podcasters talking about over
Speaker 3: the next several months. To be able to realize those goals,
Speaker 3: be able to deploy clean energy at scale, there's going
Speaker 3: to be an exponential demand on many of these core materials.
Speaker 3: And if we aren't thinking right now, how do we
Speaker 3: mind those or recycle those from existing tailings that take
Speaker 3: advantage of new innovation that much of which is being
Speaker 3: developed here in the US. And we're not thinking about
Speaker 3: ensuring that there is not force labor and child labor,
Speaker 3: and that in communities where mining is happening, that those
Speaker 3: communities are served with better healthcare, with schools, with lights
Speaker 3: being able to be turned on, then we're not solving
Speaker 3: the problem. We're just shifting the problem. And I think
Speaker 3: that this administration is taking that really seriously and ensuring
Speaker 3: that we're thinking all the way upstream while we're so
Speaker 3: excited to deploy, and I can take a lot of creditor.
Speaker 3: I could say, my colleagues in the US government could
Speaker 3: take a lot of credit for some amazing new renewable
Speaker 3: energy projects that PGII has been delivering along with our
Speaker 3: other sectors, which I hope to talk a little bit
Speaker 3: about as well. We have to be there at the
Speaker 3: mind sight. We have to be thinking about processing not
Speaker 3: only but very importantly for the safety and well being
Speaker 3: in transparency of these supply chains, but also to ensure
Speaker 3: that people that live in the countries where these materials are,
Speaker 3: including in our own, are able to realize the full
Speaker 3: benefits of those critical minerals.
Speaker 2: Everybody needs access to them. The global demand, nif estimates,
Speaker 2: is going to quintuple by the end of the decade.
Speaker 2: US demand is going to go up. Global demand is
Speaker 2: going to go up. Do you find that there's a
Speaker 2: tension between making sure that we are going to have
Speaker 2: enough of the products we need as opposed to other
Speaker 2: countries who also have to decarbonize. Is that part of
Speaker 2: the consideration when you're developing.
Speaker 3: These projects in this case, because that demand is so great.
Speaker 3: We know a couple things. One, we know we need
Speaker 3: to invest at home, and there's so much work that's
Speaker 3: happening through the legislation that I mentioned already, and all
Speaker 3: of the new authorities and capabilities given to the Department
Speaker 3: of Energy and other parts of our administration to give
Speaker 3: grants to help move forward new lithium production for example,
Speaker 3: and thinking through new ways to do processing. And we'll
Speaker 3: do a lot here at home. But the truth is
Speaker 3: this demand is so great it is one of the
Speaker 3: perfect places for diplomacy to come in because we can't
Speaker 3: do this without partners. We can't do it, they can't
Speaker 3: do it, and the world needs to see the capabilities
Speaker 3: be able to serve this demand. Additionally, I think we've
Speaker 3: learned a lot in the last several years about what
Speaker 3: really takes have resilient supply chains and the redundancies you need,
Speaker 3: and the capabilities to open up markets in a meaningful way.
Speaker 3: And so this is I don't want to say a
Speaker 3: rare occasion, because, like I said, as a trained diplomat,
Speaker 3: I think almost all occasions lend themselves to being able
Speaker 3: to work with partners around the world. But I think
Speaker 3: this one is really uniquely situated, and we're not going
Speaker 3: to do anyone any favors. If we just secure our
Speaker 3: supply for our market, that of course is our top priority.
Speaker 3: That is what we will do, what we need to do,
Speaker 3: and we're deeply committed to the clean energy revolution here
Speaker 3: at home. But we want to see evs deploy all
Speaker 3: around the world. We want to see the rest of
Speaker 3: the world electrify and actually have access to power. This
Speaker 3: is how we meet our climate goals. And if we
Speaker 3: learned anything, that's just something that one we really truly
Speaker 3: can't do on its own.
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit more about diplomacy and
Speaker 2: countries coming together to try to solve what is of
Speaker 2: course a global problem. After COP twenty six in Glasgow,
Speaker 2: there seemed to be a real feeling of breakthrough. We
Speaker 2: as a global community had accomplished something and made a
Speaker 2: big step forward in the fight against climate change. After
Speaker 2: COP twenty seven last year, the feeling seemed to be
Speaker 2: a lot more mixed. So where do you think we
Speaker 2: now stand as a global community in this fight against
Speaker 2: climate change? And what do you, as a negotiator think
Speaker 2: needs to happen next? Sure, and I should caveat. I
Speaker 2: am no longer a negotiator. Now I have the opportunity
Speaker 2: to run these other initiatives. But I was very lucky
Speaker 2: to have the opportunity to negotiate on behalf of the
Speaker 2: US during a pretty pivotal moment in US realizing our
Speaker 2: goals and making the Paaris Agreement real and codifying those
Speaker 2: and now we're going into the COP and the UAE
Speaker 2: where we're having our first global stock take, and all
Speaker 2: along the way, the IPCC is doing its job releasing
Speaker 2: the reports to really demonstrate where we need to do
Speaker 2: more work right to bring down our emissions in a
Speaker 2: way that's going to meaningfully keep us on track with
Speaker 2: our climate ambition. So going up to the COP in Glasgow,
Speaker 2: it was a particularly exciting time for me. I was
Speaker 2: honored to be able to be the person at the
Speaker 2: White House, a part of a very small team that
Speaker 2: was preparing our President and others to participate in the
Speaker 2: conversations in Glasgow, of course, working very closely with our
Speaker 2: Special Presidential Envoy for Climate, John Kerry's team, And that
Speaker 2: was a really exciting year for lots of reasons, but
Speaker 2: for the US especially, we were demonstrating that we were
Speaker 2: back that we were going to bring ambition forward. We
Speaker 2: released incredibly ambitious NDC and work to bring the world along,
Speaker 2: not just us leading that charge, but many others to
Speaker 2: make sure that we're making the commitments that we need to.
Speaker 2: That's a very energizing space to be in, and I
Speaker 2: think that what happens after a moment like that is
Speaker 2: that we all have to take a collective breath. And
Speaker 2: I think that's what's been happening, figuring out how we
Speaker 2: actually now realize and implement. And so that's a couple
Speaker 2: different pieces. I think we saw the private sector and
Speaker 2: the financial community really come together and make ambitious targets
Speaker 2: and commitments, both in partnership with governments and on their own.
Speaker 2: I think we've seen interesting and exciting breakthroughs in technology,
Speaker 2: and we've seen now a need to figure out how
Speaker 2: we bring that all together. And so it's only natural
Speaker 2: and I'm always the optimist that the enthusiasm feels different
Speaker 2: when you're doing the rallying charge right, and now we
Speaker 2: have to figure out how to make it all work.
Speaker 2: That's part of the reason why I think the partnership
Speaker 2: with global infrastructure investment is so important, because not only
Speaker 2: are we trying to think about opportunities for countries around
Speaker 2: the world to deploy renewables and to reform their digital
Speaker 2: sectors and put forward new healthcare facilities and opportunities. We're
Speaker 2: thinking about doing all of that in the lowest emission,
Speaker 2: most resilient way that we possibly can. And so we're
Speaker 2: trying to show up not only about what we're doing
Speaker 2: in our own economy, but as part of the global community.
Speaker 2: And we're not doing it alone. We have the G
Speaker 2: seven by our side, we have many other countries by
Speaker 2: our side, and that's going to take some time, and
Speaker 2: so we might not be able to see the results
Speaker 2: of that this year next year, but I really deeply
Speaker 2: believe we're laying that foundation, and as we go into
Speaker 2: this next COP I think they'll be another significant call
Speaker 2: to action, especially when we have an opportunity to really
Speaker 2: kind of see where we can find other areas for
Speaker 2: improvement when we look where we're at collectively together. So
Speaker 2: I'm curious the IRA the Inflation Reduction Act, which was
Speaker 2: pasted last August, is obviously a landmark piece of climate
Speaker 2: legislation for the US, but it's been criticized by some
Speaker 2: of our traditional allies for making them less competitive in
Speaker 2: the global space. How would you respond to that? Is
Speaker 2: there a way to shore up our own needs and
Speaker 2: our supply chains without leaving our allies out in the cold?
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's exactly why PGII exist, as
Speaker 3: well as some of our other important diplomatic partnerships, ones
Speaker 3: that have been around for a long time, and then
Speaker 3: new ones that are being conceived in real time as well.
Speaker 3: And so I think that in the broader scheme of things,
Speaker 3: it was time for the US to legislate to demonstrate
Speaker 3: no matter where we are in our foreign policy as
Speaker 3: time goes on, we have made that commitment. We have
Speaker 3: jumped across that precipice at home, and we are putting
Speaker 3: forward the incentives and commitment to pushing this transformation forward. Ultimately,
Speaker 3: that sets the wheels spinning for so much more to
Speaker 3: happen in the world. And we're seeing other countries and
Speaker 3: other groups of countries making their own versions of similar commitments.
Speaker 3: And you know, the Europeans are figuring out in real
Speaker 3: time how they're thinking about their own critical mineral materials
Speaker 3: work through that new Act that they put forward, as
Speaker 3: well as what they're doing on the battery Alliance, and
Speaker 3: there's room for all of these efforts to live together
Speaker 3: as long as we keep coordinating, as long as we
Speaker 3: keep our discussions open. I think we're all generally looking
Speaker 3: at the same north star, which is to decarbonize, to
Speaker 3: grower economies, and to ensure that we're not leaving others behind.
Speaker 2: On the White House's website for the Partnership for Global
Speaker 2: Infrastructure and Investment, they mentioned that the G seven has
Speaker 2: mobilized six hundred billion dollars, of which two hundred billion
Speaker 2: is coming from the US. And then there's a line
Speaker 2: that says, this six hundred billion is only the beginning.
Speaker 2: So what do you think is going to happen next?
Speaker 3: Yeah, let me also add, we're giving ourselves five years
Speaker 3: to hit that target.
Speaker 2: We are giving ourselves five years to hit that target.
Speaker 2: That is an important note to make.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but of course it is only the beginning. Once
Speaker 3: we're able to actually prove that how we're working through PGII,
Speaker 3: which is not only across multiple sectors, not only in
Speaker 3: innovative ways, but to really create quarters of economic success,
Speaker 3: we will continue to bring the private sector along with us.
Speaker 3: And so what I think is really special about this initiative.
Speaker 3: How it's being implemented across the G seven is that
Speaker 3: we're saying, this is just public dollars. We're going to
Speaker 3: put our public dollars in thoughtful, strategic places. We're going
Speaker 3: to spend the time with the leaders of the countries
Speaker 3: that are trying to reform their sectors to attract investment
Speaker 3: and really work through those enabling environment, those regulatory issues,
Speaker 3: and bring the private sector behind us. Working to bring
Speaker 3: the financial institutions along. And I know that might sound
Speaker 3: like a very overally optimistic view, but if you spend
Speaker 3: time with all of the financiers that are figuring out
Speaker 3: where and how to spend their dollars, it's naturally going
Speaker 3: to be absorbed. In the US and the OECD governments
Speaker 3: do need to do that extra step to demonstrate that
Speaker 3: there is project pipeline, there is opportunity that will stand
Speaker 3: behind in de risk and so I deeply believe it
Speaker 3: is the beginning. We have work to do. I think
Speaker 3: that we have to definitely spend these next few years
Speaker 3: demonstrating the success of this theory of the case. But
Speaker 3: we're seeing so much change already as an administration. So far,
Speaker 3: we've spent a good deal of time, more time than
Speaker 3: we had in the past, really showing up on the
Speaker 3: continent of Africa. And by no means am I saying
Speaker 3: that's efficient, just saying that we really started putting in
Speaker 3: that effort in that time and working with leaders across
Speaker 3: the continent, and it's paying off. I hope they feel
Speaker 3: for them, and I can see us finding new opportunities
Speaker 3: to really move the ball there and around the world,
Speaker 3: and so I definitely hope this is only the beginning.
Speaker 2: And I have a final question about the PGII, which
Speaker 2: is that there's been a long standing tension between climate
Speaker 2: adaptation and climate mitigation, and the US has long been
Speaker 2: on the side of climate mitigation, which is to say,
Speaker 2: let's decarbonize as much as possible, it's halt climate change.
Speaker 2: On the other side is climate adaptation, which says, you
Speaker 2: know what, climate change is happening, It's going to have
Speaker 2: some huge effects on the globe. How do we protect
Speaker 2: ourselves against those forthcoming effects. So, now you're working on
Speaker 2: a project that is focused on infrastructure and developing economies,
Speaker 2: do you ever find that there is this tension between
Speaker 2: adaptation and mitigation in these projects? Do you have to
Speaker 2: try to balance it and where do you come down
Speaker 2: on that side when you're deciding what to fund.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of the situations where I am
Speaker 3: relieved that I don't have the hard task of being
Speaker 3: a climate negotiator on any side of this issue right now,
Speaker 3: as we're sorting out what's really next for adaptation as
Speaker 3: a means for addressing what we know are going to
Speaker 3: be impacts of climate change that are going to happen,
Speaker 3: and we have to prepare ourselves and other economies for those.
Speaker 3: But the how is tricky and that will be kind
Speaker 3: of sorted out in the negotiating rooms over the next
Speaker 3: few years. Where we sit as we're thinking about how
Speaker 3: we deploy dollars, how we look at projects that exemplify
Speaker 3: the principles that we're trying to emulate. I think that
Speaker 3: there really isn't attention, and I'll tell you why. First
Speaker 3: and foremost, when you're thinking about infrastructure, you have to
Speaker 3: think about it from both angles. So, if we're thinking
Speaker 3: about how we de carbonize economies and actually give them
Speaker 3: a support access that is clean energy. However, when you're
Speaker 3: thinking about citing clean energy projects or new types of investments,
Speaker 3: whether it's in the tublecommunications space, or the healthcare space,
Speaker 3: or in the agricultural space. You need to think about
Speaker 3: how that's deployed in a way that's climate resilient, that
Speaker 3: works in those economies, that it will last as an
Speaker 3: investment that is bankable, because once again, at the end
Speaker 3: of the days, the public finance can do a lot,
Speaker 3: but it can't do the whole thing. And that's a
Speaker 3: big part of the reason why over the last several
Speaker 3: months we've incorporated agriculture, which I'm not saying is inherently
Speaker 3: climate resilience, but definitely is a place where you think
Speaker 3: through how to mitigate the challenges of climate change, but
Speaker 3: also to adapt to the fact that in many of
Speaker 3: these parts of the world we're seeing different rain patterns,
Speaker 3: different water patterns. To come in and think of new
Speaker 3: investment in a moment like that, that's building in an
Speaker 3: understanding of what's happening, I hope is part of how
Speaker 3: we're demonstrating that we're really trying to show up with
Speaker 3: a climate agenda, but an investment agenda as well.
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