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Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on

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Speaker 1: the BNF podcast. Today we have an interview recorded at

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Speaker 1: bnaf's New York summit. Helena Matsa spent the last decade

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Speaker 1: working at the Department of State in the US across

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Speaker 1: multiple roles, having previously served as the Director of Energy

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Speaker 1: Transformation at the Bureau of Energy Resources and Director of

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Speaker 1: Climate Diplomacy and Energy Transformation at the National Security Council.

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Speaker 1: She was appointed Special Presidential Coordinator for the Partnership on

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Speaker 1: Global Infrastructure Investment in January of this year. BNF editor

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Speaker 1: Kamala Shelling sat down with Helena for a chat, and

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Speaker 1: together they discussed Helena's experience as a diplomat and some

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Speaker 1: of the geopolitical challenges she and the US government have

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Speaker 1: to face. They also went through the Partnership for Global

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Speaker 1: Infrastructure Investment and its aims and goals. Additionally, they discussed

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Speaker 1: US foreign policy and its support of foreign nations and

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Speaker 1: companies through strategic investment. If you like this podcast, make

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Speaker 1: sure to subscribe to receive updates on future episodisodes, and

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Speaker 1: if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,

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Speaker 1: consider giving us a review. For more information about bnf' summits,

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Speaker 1: as well as previously recorded videos from the New York

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Speaker 1: Summit or agendas for upcoming summits, head to about dot

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Speaker 1: BNAF dot com Forward slash Summit. And now let's hear

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Speaker 1: Kamala's chat with Helena.

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Speaker 2: You have had a career throughout the State Department. You've

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Speaker 2: been a negotiator, you've been a strategist. Tell me about

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Speaker 2: your career and how you got to where you are now.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for that question. I always, when

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Speaker 3: I'm talking to folks try to remind them that while

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Speaker 3: your career sounds like it's a linear, well thought out line,

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Speaker 3: often your story is getting written as it's happening. And

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Speaker 3: so I found my way to the State Department after

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Speaker 3: studying international affairs, spending some time living overseas, and I

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Speaker 3: came on board to be the Department Sustainability Advisor. So

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Speaker 3: I was actually going around with a small team figuring

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Speaker 3: out how to actually make our own embassy operations more efficient,

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Speaker 3: so doing smart metering, buying clean power where we could

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Speaker 3: demonstrating the best in US technology at our embassies around

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Speaker 3: the world. And through that I learned a lot and

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Speaker 3: was really interested in spending more time in the policy

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Speaker 3: area and came and joined our Clean Energy team at

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Speaker 3: the State Department. From there, it's just been a long,

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Speaker 3: winding but exciting road of opportunities. So having a chance

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Speaker 3: to join our climate negotiation team as we were closing

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Speaker 3: the Pairs rule book leading up to Kadaviza, Poland, and

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Speaker 3: then beginning this administration at the White House as our

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Speaker 3: Director for Climate Diplomacy and Energy Transformation. When I came

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Speaker 3: back to State Department and was asked to run the

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Speaker 3: Clean Energy team, I was able to bring together a

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Speaker 3: lot of different experience and start working on some of

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Speaker 3: those really exciting and challenging issues around clean energy supply chains,

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Speaker 3: which ultimately led me to my current position working for

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Speaker 3: the Partnership for Global Infrastructure and Investment.

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Speaker 2: In a negotiator's position or in the position as a diplomat,

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Speaker 2: what would you say are some of the top challenges

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Speaker 2: that you are facing. You know, we BNF tend to

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Speaker 2: focus on the science side, but from a geopolitical angle,

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Speaker 2: what do you think are the real challenges that you're

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Speaker 2: trying to grapple with.

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Speaker 3: Sure, it's a great question, and sometimes it's a little

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Speaker 3: bit different in the negotiating room versut when we're out

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Speaker 3: there in the field trying to get projects off the ground.

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Speaker 3: But ultimately the spirit is the same. You know, around

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Speaker 3: these issues, especially deploying clean energy and meeting our climate goals,

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Speaker 3: there is always a tension that you need to work through,

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Speaker 3: especially as these need to be elevated as national security

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Speaker 3: priorities at the same time. And so I find in

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Speaker 3: the negotiating room the key is really building alliances, finding

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Speaker 3: areas of common interests, which sounds very obvious but can

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Speaker 3: be quite complicated. As countries are experiencing really different effects

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Speaker 3: of climate change, they've had different roles in getting us

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Speaker 3: into the situation we're in. We're all coming at the issue,

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Speaker 3: even though it's a shared global challenge with a different

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Speaker 3: set of resources, and so I think the trick in

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Speaker 3: the negotiating room is figuring out how you bring that

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Speaker 3: together and come to a common solution that gives enough

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Speaker 3: space to be able to implement in the real world.

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Speaker 3: And now where I sit actually figuring out what types

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Speaker 3: of projects and interventions make sense in the real world

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Speaker 3: that have a really good bang for their buck. Since

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Speaker 3: we know that we're always operating with limited public dollars.

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Speaker 3: We're trying to bring the private sector along with us,

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Speaker 3: and of course we want to answer the development needs

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Speaker 3: of the countries we work in in a very ever

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Speaker 3: evolving foreign policy space.

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Speaker 2: So tell me about where you're sitting now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So in the last few months, I was able

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Speaker 3: to take on a new position as the Deputy Special

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Speaker 3: Coordinator for the Partnership for Global Infrastructure Investment. And this

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Speaker 3: is a really exciting initiative that our President launched last

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Speaker 3: year in partnership with the G seven countries, for US

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Speaker 3: collectively and as individual countries to offer better value alternatives

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Speaker 3: for structure of investment around the world. When we're talking

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Speaker 3: about the geopolitics of the energy transformation, or really just

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Speaker 3: the geopolitics of the moment we find ourselves in right now,

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Speaker 3: there's really two intersecting revolutions that are happening. One in

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Speaker 3: tech where the world is becoming faster and smaller and

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Speaker 3: more connected, and one in climate and energy, as the

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Speaker 3: clean energy transition shapes the very fundamentals of energy systems

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Speaker 3: and food security around the world. And that is a

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Speaker 3: big reason why we're leading with a Partnership for Global

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Speaker 3: Infrastructure Investment.

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Speaker 2: Let's get a little more concrete. There is there an

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Speaker 2: example of a project that you've worked on as part

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Speaker 2: of the partnership that you think really exemplifies what this

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Speaker 2: partnership can do and what it can accomplish.

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Speaker 3: I think there are several, and we're actually getting ready

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Speaker 3: to announce some of our new flagship projects on the

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Speaker 3: margins of the G seven that the President will be

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Speaker 3: able to share in just a couple weeks. So I

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Speaker 3: will not scoop our own president, but I'll share an

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Speaker 3: example that our Vice president actually announced just a few

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Speaker 3: weeks ago when she was visiting Africa and Tanzania. We

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Speaker 3: have been working with the company or a couple companies

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Speaker 3: that are investing in a special economic zone in the

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Speaker 3: country to help bring cleaner nickel processing as a hub,

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Speaker 3: a value added opportunity for the Tanzanian people to actually

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Speaker 3: take advantage of being able to develop their own commodities,

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Speaker 3: in this case nickel, but hopefully over time rare earths

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Speaker 3: and others. The same time, we're helping facilitate some of

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Speaker 3: those connection points with a couple new producing assets and

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Speaker 3: trying to ensure that we're supporting companies coming in to

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Speaker 3: develop those in a way that's considerate of land and

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Speaker 3: labor and environmental stewardship. And at the same time, this

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Speaker 3: is a huge priority for the President of Tanzania as

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Speaker 3: she's embarking on trying to attract investment or our country.

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Speaker 3: So it's one of the ways we marry our development

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Speaker 3: priorities with our commercial opportunities. And then of course we're

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Speaker 3: excited to see that cleaner battery grade nickel over time

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Speaker 3: entering the global market, which is of extreme interests the

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Speaker 3: US and so many of our partners and allies.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned nickel, you mentioned critical minerals. This is

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Speaker 2: obviously tremendously important for the US right now and for

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Speaker 2: the world as a whole, both for our electronics and

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Speaker 2: for the energy transition. But mineral mining has so often

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Speaker 2: come with tremendous environmental degradation and often human rights abuses

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Speaker 2: as well. Do you think it's important to take that

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Speaker 2: into account as you're developing these projects and try to

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Speaker 2: make sure that the mining processes are environmentally friendly and

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Speaker 2: to minimize human rights violations as much as possible.

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Speaker 3: Of course, I mean, I think that's why you know,

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Speaker 3: every time I have a conversation like this, I start

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Speaker 3: off with a version of a joke of like, did

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Speaker 3: you ever think a climbate negotiator will find their way

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Speaker 3: into the bottom of an open pit mine? I certainly

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Speaker 3: did not. But it's for all those reasons we have

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Speaker 3: made so much progress, especially in our own country, our

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Speaker 3: president moving forward with such impactful legislation, whether it's a

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Speaker 3: Biparson Infrastructure Law or Chips Act, and of course the IRA,

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Speaker 3: which I'm sure you'll have many podcasters talking about over

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Speaker 3: the next several months. To be able to realize those goals,

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Speaker 3: be able to deploy clean energy at scale, there's going

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Speaker 3: to be an exponential demand on many of these core materials.

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Speaker 3: And if we aren't thinking right now, how do we

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Speaker 3: mind those or recycle those from existing tailings that take

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Speaker 3: advantage of new innovation that much of which is being

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Speaker 3: developed here in the US. And we're not thinking about

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Speaker 3: ensuring that there is not force labor and child labor,

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Speaker 3: and that in communities where mining is happening, that those

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Speaker 3: communities are served with better healthcare, with schools, with lights

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Speaker 3: being able to be turned on, then we're not solving

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Speaker 3: the problem. We're just shifting the problem. And I think

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Speaker 3: that this administration is taking that really seriously and ensuring

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Speaker 3: that we're thinking all the way upstream while we're so

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Speaker 3: excited to deploy, and I can take a lot of creditor.

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Speaker 3: I could say, my colleagues in the US government could

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Speaker 3: take a lot of credit for some amazing new renewable

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Speaker 3: energy projects that PGII has been delivering along with our

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Speaker 3: other sectors, which I hope to talk a little bit

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Speaker 3: about as well. We have to be there at the

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Speaker 3: mind sight. We have to be thinking about processing not

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Speaker 3: only but very importantly for the safety and well being

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Speaker 3: in transparency of these supply chains, but also to ensure

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Speaker 3: that people that live in the countries where these materials are,

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Speaker 3: including in our own, are able to realize the full

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Speaker 3: benefits of those critical minerals.

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Speaker 2: Everybody needs access to them. The global demand, nif estimates,

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Speaker 2: is going to quintuple by the end of the decade.

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Speaker 2: US demand is going to go up. Global demand is

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Speaker 2: going to go up. Do you find that there's a

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Speaker 2: tension between making sure that we are going to have

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Speaker 2: enough of the products we need as opposed to other

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Speaker 2: countries who also have to decarbonize. Is that part of

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Speaker 2: the consideration when you're developing.

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Speaker 3: These projects in this case, because that demand is so great.

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Speaker 3: We know a couple things. One, we know we need

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Speaker 3: to invest at home, and there's so much work that's

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Speaker 3: happening through the legislation that I mentioned already, and all

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Speaker 3: of the new authorities and capabilities given to the Department

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Speaker 3: of Energy and other parts of our administration to give

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Speaker 3: grants to help move forward new lithium production for example,

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Speaker 3: and thinking through new ways to do processing. And we'll

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Speaker 3: do a lot here at home. But the truth is

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Speaker 3: this demand is so great it is one of the

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Speaker 3: perfect places for diplomacy to come in because we can't

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Speaker 3: do this without partners. We can't do it, they can't

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Speaker 3: do it, and the world needs to see the capabilities

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Speaker 3: be able to serve this demand. Additionally, I think we've

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Speaker 3: learned a lot in the last several years about what

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Speaker 3: really takes have resilient supply chains and the redundancies you need,

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Speaker 3: and the capabilities to open up markets in a meaningful way.

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Speaker 3: And so this is I don't want to say a

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Speaker 3: rare occasion, because, like I said, as a trained diplomat,

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Speaker 3: I think almost all occasions lend themselves to being able

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Speaker 3: to work with partners around the world. But I think

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Speaker 3: this one is really uniquely situated, and we're not going

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Speaker 3: to do anyone any favors. If we just secure our

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Speaker 3: supply for our market, that of course is our top priority.

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Speaker 3: That is what we will do, what we need to do,

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Speaker 3: and we're deeply committed to the clean energy revolution here

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Speaker 3: at home. But we want to see evs deploy all

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Speaker 3: around the world. We want to see the rest of

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Speaker 3: the world electrify and actually have access to power. This

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Speaker 3: is how we meet our climate goals. And if we

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Speaker 3: learned anything, that's just something that one we really truly

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Speaker 3: can't do on its own.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit more about diplomacy and

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Speaker 2: countries coming together to try to solve what is of

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Speaker 2: course a global problem. After COP twenty six in Glasgow,

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Speaker 2: there seemed to be a real feeling of breakthrough. We

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Speaker 2: as a global community had accomplished something and made a

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Speaker 2: big step forward in the fight against climate change. After

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Speaker 2: COP twenty seven last year, the feeling seemed to be

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Speaker 2: a lot more mixed. So where do you think we

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Speaker 2: now stand as a global community in this fight against

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Speaker 2: climate change? And what do you, as a negotiator think

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Speaker 2: needs to happen next? Sure, and I should caveat. I

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Speaker 2: am no longer a negotiator. Now I have the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to run these other initiatives. But I was very lucky

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Speaker 2: US during a pretty pivotal moment in US realizing our

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Speaker 2: goals and making the Paaris Agreement real and codifying those

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Speaker 2: and now we're going into the COP and the UAE

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Speaker 2: where we're having our first global stock take, and all

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Speaker 2: along the way, the IPCC is doing its job releasing

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Speaker 2: the reports to really demonstrate where we need to do

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Speaker 2: more work right to bring down our emissions in a

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Speaker 2: way that's going to meaningfully keep us on track with

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Speaker 2: our climate ambition. So going up to the COP in Glasgow,

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Speaker 2: it was a particularly exciting time for me. I was

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Speaker 2: honored to be able to be the person at the

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Speaker 2: White House, a part of a very small team that

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Speaker 2: was preparing our President and others to participate in the

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Speaker 2: conversations in Glasgow, of course, working very closely with our

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Speaker 2: Special Presidential Envoy for Climate, John Kerry's team, And that

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Speaker 2: was a really exciting year for lots of reasons, but

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Speaker 2: for the US especially, we were demonstrating that we were

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Speaker 2: back that we were going to bring ambition forward. We

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Speaker 2: released incredibly ambitious NDC and work to bring the world along,

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Speaker 2: not just us leading that charge, but many others to

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Speaker 2: make sure that we're making the commitments that we need to.

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Speaker 2: That's a very energizing space to be in, and I

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Speaker 2: think that what happens after a moment like that is

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Speaker 2: that we all have to take a collective breath. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's what's been happening, figuring out how we

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Speaker 2: actually now realize and implement. And so that's a couple

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Speaker 2: different pieces. I think we saw the private sector and

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Speaker 2: the financial community really come together and make ambitious targets

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Speaker 2: and commitments, both in partnership with governments and on their own.

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Speaker 2: I think we've seen interesting and exciting breakthroughs in technology,

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Speaker 2: and we've seen now a need to figure out how

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Speaker 2: we bring that all together. And so it's only natural

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Speaker 2: and I'm always the optimist that the enthusiasm feels different

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Speaker 2: when you're doing the rallying charge right, and now we

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Speaker 2: have to figure out how to make it all work.

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Speaker 2: That's part of the reason why I think the partnership

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Speaker 2: with global infrastructure investment is so important, because not only

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Speaker 2: are we trying to think about opportunities for countries around

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Speaker 2: the world to deploy renewables and to reform their digital

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Speaker 2: sectors and put forward new healthcare facilities and opportunities. We're

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Speaker 2: thinking about doing all of that in the lowest emission,

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Speaker 2: most resilient way that we possibly can. And so we're

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Speaker 2: trying to show up not only about what we're doing

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Speaker 2: in our own economy, but as part of the global community.

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Speaker 2: And we're not doing it alone. We have the G

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Speaker 2: seven by our side, we have many other countries by

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Speaker 2: our side, and that's going to take some time, and

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Speaker 2: so we might not be able to see the results

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Speaker 2: of that this year next year, but I really deeply

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Speaker 2: believe we're laying that foundation, and as we go into

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Speaker 2: this next COP I think they'll be another significant call

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Speaker 2: to action, especially when we have an opportunity to really

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Speaker 2: kind of see where we can find other areas for

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Speaker 2: improvement when we look where we're at collectively together. So

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Speaker 2: I'm curious the IRA the Inflation Reduction Act, which was

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Speaker 2: pasted last August, is obviously a landmark piece of climate

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Speaker 2: legislation for the US, but it's been criticized by some

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Speaker 2: of our traditional allies for making them less competitive in

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Speaker 2: the global space. How would you respond to that? Is

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Speaker 2: there a way to shore up our own needs and

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Speaker 2: our supply chains without leaving our allies out in the cold?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's exactly why PGII exist, as

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Speaker 3: well as some of our other important diplomatic partnerships, ones

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Speaker 3: that have been around for a long time, and then

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Speaker 3: new ones that are being conceived in real time as well.

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Speaker 3: And so I think that in the broader scheme of things,

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Speaker 3: it was time for the US to legislate to demonstrate

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Speaker 3: no matter where we are in our foreign policy as

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Speaker 3: time goes on, we have made that commitment. We have

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Speaker 3: jumped across that precipice at home, and we are putting

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Speaker 3: forward the incentives and commitment to pushing this transformation forward. Ultimately,

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Speaker 3: that sets the wheels spinning for so much more to

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Speaker 3: happen in the world. And we're seeing other countries and

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Speaker 3: other groups of countries making their own versions of similar commitments.

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Speaker 3: And you know, the Europeans are figuring out in real

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Speaker 3: time how they're thinking about their own critical mineral materials

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Speaker 3: work through that new Act that they put forward, as

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Speaker 3: well as what they're doing on the battery Alliance, and

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Speaker 3: there's room for all of these efforts to live together

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Speaker 3: as long as we keep coordinating, as long as we

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Speaker 3: keep our discussions open. I think we're all generally looking

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Speaker 3: at the same north star, which is to decarbonize, to

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Speaker 3: grower economies, and to ensure that we're not leaving others behind.

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Speaker 2: On the White House's website for the Partnership for Global

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Speaker 2: Infrastructure and Investment, they mentioned that the G seven has

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Speaker 2: mobilized six hundred billion dollars, of which two hundred billion

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Speaker 2: is coming from the US. And then there's a line

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Speaker 2: that says, this six hundred billion is only the beginning.

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Speaker 2: So what do you think is going to happen next?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let me also add, we're giving ourselves five years

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Speaker 3: to hit that target.

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Speaker 2: We are giving ourselves five years to hit that target.

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Speaker 2: That is an important note to make.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but of course it is only the beginning. Once

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Speaker 3: we're able to actually prove that how we're working through PGII,

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Speaker 3: which is not only across multiple sectors, not only in

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Speaker 3: innovative ways, but to really create quarters of economic success,

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Speaker 3: we will continue to bring the private sector along with us.

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Speaker 3: And so what I think is really special about this initiative.

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Speaker 3: How it's being implemented across the G seven is that

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Speaker 3: we're saying, this is just public dollars. We're going to

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Speaker 3: put our public dollars in thoughtful, strategic places. We're going

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Speaker 3: to spend the time with the leaders of the countries

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Speaker 3: that are trying to reform their sectors to attract investment

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Speaker 3: and really work through those enabling environment, those regulatory issues,

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Speaker 3: and bring the private sector behind us. Working to bring

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Speaker 3: the financial institutions along. And I know that might sound

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Speaker 3: like a very overally optimistic view, but if you spend

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Speaker 3: time with all of the financiers that are figuring out

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Speaker 3: where and how to spend their dollars, it's naturally going

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Speaker 3: to be absorbed. In the US and the OECD governments

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Speaker 3: do need to do that extra step to demonstrate that

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Speaker 3: there is project pipeline, there is opportunity that will stand

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Speaker 3: behind in de risk and so I deeply believe it

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Speaker 3: is the beginning. We have work to do. I think

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Speaker 3: that we have to definitely spend these next few years

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Speaker 3: demonstrating the success of this theory of the case. But

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Speaker 3: we're seeing so much change already as an administration. So far,

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Speaker 3: we've spent a good deal of time, more time than

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Speaker 3: we had in the past, really showing up on the

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Speaker 3: continent of Africa. And by no means am I saying

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Speaker 3: that's efficient, just saying that we really started putting in

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Speaker 3: that effort in that time and working with leaders across

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Speaker 3: the continent, and it's paying off. I hope they feel

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Speaker 3: for them, and I can see us finding new opportunities

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Speaker 3: to really move the ball there and around the world,

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Speaker 3: and so I definitely hope this is only the beginning.

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Speaker 2: And I have a final question about the PGII, which

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Speaker 2: is that there's been a long standing tension between climate

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Speaker 2: adaptation and climate mitigation, and the US has long been

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Speaker 2: on the side of climate mitigation, which is to say,

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Speaker 2: let's decarbonize as much as possible, it's halt climate change.

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Speaker 2: On the other side is climate adaptation, which says, you

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Speaker 2: know what, climate change is happening, It's going to have

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Speaker 2: some huge effects on the globe. How do we protect

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Speaker 2: ourselves against those forthcoming effects. So, now you're working on

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Speaker 2: a project that is focused on infrastructure and developing economies,

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Speaker 2: do you ever find that there is this tension between

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Speaker 2: adaptation and mitigation in these projects? Do you have to

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Speaker 2: try to balance it and where do you come down

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Speaker 2: on that side when you're deciding what to fund.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of the situations where I am

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Speaker 3: relieved that I don't have the hard task of being

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Speaker 3: a climate negotiator on any side of this issue right now,

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Speaker 3: as we're sorting out what's really next for adaptation as

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Speaker 3: a means for addressing what we know are going to

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Speaker 3: be impacts of climate change that are going to happen,

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Speaker 3: and we have to prepare ourselves and other economies for those.

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Speaker 3: But the how is tricky and that will be kind

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Speaker 3: of sorted out in the negotiating rooms over the next

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Speaker 3: few years. Where we sit as we're thinking about how

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Speaker 3: we deploy dollars, how we look at projects that exemplify

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Speaker 3: the principles that we're trying to emulate. I think that

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Speaker 3: there really isn't attention, and I'll tell you why. First

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Speaker 3: and foremost, when you're thinking about infrastructure, you have to

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Speaker 3: think about it from both angles. So, if we're thinking

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Speaker 3: about how we de carbonize economies and actually give them

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Speaker 3: a support access that is clean energy. However, when you're

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Speaker 3: thinking about citing clean energy projects or new types of investments,

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Speaker 3: whether it's in the tublecommunications space, or the healthcare space,

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Speaker 3: or in the agricultural space. You need to think about

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Speaker 3: how that's deployed in a way that's climate resilient, that

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Speaker 3: works in those economies, that it will last as an

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Speaker 3: investment that is bankable, because once again, at the end

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Speaker 3: of the days, the public finance can do a lot,

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Speaker 3: but it can't do the whole thing. And that's a

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Speaker 3: big part of the reason why over the last several

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Speaker 3: months we've incorporated agriculture, which I'm not saying is inherently

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Speaker 3: climate resilience, but definitely is a place where you think

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Speaker 3: through how to mitigate the challenges of climate change, but

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Speaker 3: also to adapt to the fact that in many of

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Speaker 3: these parts of the world we're seeing different rain patterns,

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Speaker 3: different water patterns. To come in and think of new

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Speaker 3: investment in a moment like that, that's building in an

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Speaker 3: understanding of what's happening, I hope is part of how

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Speaker 3: we're demonstrating that we're really trying to show up with

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Speaker 3: a climate agenda, but an investment agenda as well.

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