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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust her?

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Speaker 2: Right ever lead you astray? Trust?

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Speaker 3: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 1: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 1: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 1: and manipulation from two early risers who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I am Low LeBlanc and I am Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: Today our guest is Liz Cameron. This is Part one

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Speaker 1: with her. She is a survivor of the JMS cult

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Speaker 1: aka Jesus Morning Star and author of Cultbride, How I

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Speaker 1: Was Brainwashed and How I Broke Free. So in Part

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Speaker 1: one today, she's going to talk to us about how

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Speaker 1: she was first approached by a woman in a bookstore

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Speaker 1: to do a survey, and how that survey turned into

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Speaker 1: a Bible study group full of women who gained her

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Speaker 1: trust and introduced her to their new and exciting church.

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Speaker 4: She'll explain how they began encouraging her to spend more

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Speaker 4: and more time together, get up earlier and earlier, and

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Speaker 4: painted her old church community and even family as people

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Speaker 4: who weren't dedicated enough to Jesus all as they slowly

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Speaker 4: introduced the idea of an incredibly spiritually devoted man, they

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Speaker 4: called Pastor Joshua.

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Speaker 1: And next week we will talk more about Pastor Joshua

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Speaker 1: and his criminal history. And it is something, It's really something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this story is it reaches like nightmare status for me,

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Speaker 4: so yes.

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Speaker 1: And she does such an incredible job in the book

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Speaker 1: and in this interview illustrating the like slow process of

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Speaker 1: how that indoctrination happens, which is really important, IMO. But

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Speaker 1: before we get into it with Liz Megan, what's your

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Speaker 1: cultiest thing this week?

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Speaker 4: My cultiest thing this week is that I'm obviously looking

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Speaker 4: at the Epstein files. We record a little bit early,

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Speaker 4: these intros and outros, so who knows what will have

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Speaker 4: happened by the time this actually comes out.

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Speaker 1: But here's my opinion.

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Speaker 4: Lola disagrees with it, so take it worth a grain

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Speaker 4: of Megan. I think that this story is so huge

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Speaker 4: and so disturbing that they are going to create a

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Speaker 4: fake alien invasion. That's what I honestly think Lola has

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Speaker 4: said from the beginning that they're going to start making

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Speaker 4: AI cult leaders, which you've already seen left in right.

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Speaker 4: I think people are going to start thinking AI is

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Speaker 4: a higher power, aliens are here that'll fix everything. And

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Speaker 4: I think it's all just going to be possibly not real.

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Speaker 4: I believe in aliens. Hopefully the real ones come, But.

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Speaker 1: Who's them, who's saying they're arriving.

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Speaker 4: Well, I just showed you Obama saying they're real, which

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Speaker 4: I never thought i'd ye.

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Speaker 1: To contextualize the clip, he's doing a rapid fire response

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Speaker 1: to questions, and he's saying aliens are real, They're not

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Speaker 1: an Area fifty one. He also said he didn't see

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Speaker 1: any evidence of them as in his presidency, but he

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Speaker 1: believes that they must be out there somewhere.

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Speaker 4: Maybe it's not aliens, maybe it's just ay. I think

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Speaker 4: that we need to just be very wary if something

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Speaker 4: like that happens.

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Speaker 1: You mean, if someone comes out and is like, there's

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Speaker 1: a higher power, look at this AI, there's alien. You

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Speaker 1: think that that's just like a distraction.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, unless I'm in the alien ship flying around the

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Speaker 4: galaxy going through wormholes, I'm not going to believe that.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to need that alien who lands the day

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Speaker 4: the unredacted files come out to come hold me and

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Speaker 4: it's arms, and then I'll believe it.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: I don't disagree with the idea that there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of powerful people who will do lots of things

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Speaker 1: to distract the public from the Epstein files. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: and just skeptical of.

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Speaker 4: Being a fake alien invasion. I mean, listen, and I

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Speaker 4: wouldn't put it past people.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think that that comment is on is

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Speaker 1: evidence of that personally. No, it's not, it's not. It's

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Speaker 1: just this shit's freaking crazy.

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Speaker 4: A lot of this just reminds me of what Liz

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Speaker 4: was going through, where somebody very normal and human is

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Speaker 4: attributing a lot of magical stuff to themselves and it's

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Speaker 4: very confusing.

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Speaker 1: So that's what id me think about? What about you?

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Speaker 1: What's your cultiest thing of the week? I now know

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Speaker 1: a new person who is claiming to be Jesus. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, that's like seven people. I think it's like four,

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Speaker 1: but and these are all I know so peripherally. And

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Speaker 1: he's posting memes of AI, images of him with Kanye

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Speaker 1: and with like other powerful people as like they're going

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Speaker 1: to save the world. Clearly is just like having a

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Speaker 1: mental health episode. And so you know, I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't want to like, I don't want to give I

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Speaker 1: don't want to say anything else about him specifically, But

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Speaker 1: what's fascinating is just that there are people in his

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Speaker 1: comments who clearly follow him, Like it's not like an

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Speaker 1: in a vacuum, like a person's having a mental health episode.

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Speaker 1: When I met him, he's nothing seemed culty about him necessarily,

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Speaker 1: but it seems like over time, while having these you know,

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Speaker 1: delusions about himself, has garnered a following of people who

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Speaker 1: really believe this, And there's a lot of illuminati talk,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And it's just fascinating because

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Speaker 1: because I, like I definitely talked about there was one

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Speaker 1: guy I did a music session with who was saying

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Speaker 1: stuff like this and was like, doing these like scam healings,

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Speaker 1: but he doesn't believe they're scam healings.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that he thinks that they're real? He

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Speaker 1: thinks that they're really Yeah, yeah, he's charging people for

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Speaker 1: them and a different person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, it's fascinating to watch how and it makes me wonder,

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Speaker 1: I guess how many folks who start cults like truly

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Speaker 1: maybe are not sociopathic but are actually like just in

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Speaker 1: a psychotic episode, a prolonged psychotic episode. You know.

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Speaker 4: It's called the episode we did with and please google

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Speaker 4: our our trust Me episode we did with somebody named

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Speaker 4: Anne totally. She went through the exact same thing, and

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Speaker 4: the human brain when it's going through that, it uses

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Speaker 4: similar amentions a lot of the time, and it's very interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I went out with a guy recently who

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Speaker 1: told me about a prolonged manic episode he had in

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Speaker 1: which he experienced hyper religiosity. And in my mind, for

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Speaker 1: some reason, I think of manic episodes as being like

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Speaker 1: a couple months maybe, but this was like a couple

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Speaker 1: of years. Like I didn't. I guess it never occurred

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Speaker 1: to me that it could really like last and then

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Speaker 1: stale emerge out of it.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, it's it's fascinating. Wow, that's I mean, poor guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's just.

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Speaker 1: Such chaotic times that I suspect, like with COVID, because

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Speaker 1: so many people had mental health episodes during the COVID era,

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Speaker 1: I suspect there's going to be a wave of that

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Speaker 1: right now as well. So if someone comes out and

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Speaker 1: says I had a vision and I'm the prophet, maybebe

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Speaker 1: a little skeptical until things settle down societally. Yes, all right,

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Speaker 1: let's talk to Liz, now, shall we? Shall we welcome

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Speaker 1: Liz Cameron to trust me. Thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: We have like one thousand questions for you today because

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Speaker 1: of the book that you wrote called Cult Bride, How

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Speaker 1: I Was Brainwashed and How I Broke Free, which for

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Speaker 1: listeners is about the Providence Cult or JMS or no

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Speaker 1: other names as well, right, so many Yeah, Well, first

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Speaker 1: of all, I just want to compliment your book because

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Speaker 1: I feel like you laid out the process of indoctrination

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Speaker 1: so very well, where I like really understood each layer

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Speaker 1: in each step, like why you made the decision that

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Speaker 1: you made, the process of manipulation that was happening there,

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Speaker 1: whether it was intentional on their parts or not. And

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Speaker 1: so yeah, you just really did a really great job

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Speaker 1: of what it feels like to actually get indoctrinated, which

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Speaker 1: is a really specific thing. You know, it's not a

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Speaker 1: childhood experience. It's very different.

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Speaker 2: Thank you know that that means a lot. And I

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Speaker 2: find any time that someone who has had experience in

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Speaker 2: the kind of system that I have says that it

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Speaker 2: felt real to them. I really just want other people

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Speaker 2: to feel seen in the book that they you know,

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Speaker 2: like those dynamics ring through for them, so that means

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Speaker 2: a lot to hear.

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Speaker 1: Think, Yeah, I mean, and the book is just fascinating.

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Speaker 4: The story that we're about to get into is unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you, I think, yeah.

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Speaker 4: It's my trauma.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 5: Well, so tell us a little bit just about before

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Speaker 5: this whole process actually begins, Like, what was your relationship

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Speaker 5: to faith before you met members of the group.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I grew up a very Christian, like I

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Speaker 2: tent to call it fundamentalist Christian because it was that

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Speaker 2: kind of like I don't know if you guys have

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Speaker 2: heard about the Brownsville Revival. I believe it started in

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Speaker 2: the States, but it was kind of like this spiritual

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Speaker 2: movement of people, you know, wave of the Holy Spirit,

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Speaker 2: people getting safe. And I remember growing up, my parents

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Speaker 2: would you know, take because it was this charismatic, evangelical

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Speaker 2: kind of Protestant Christian church and to go on Sundays

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Speaker 2: and then we'd have Bible study groups and cell groups

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Speaker 2: and then you know, they'd wrap us up in warm

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Speaker 2: clothes and take us to the church so that they

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Speaker 2: could have a late night you know, prayer meeting and

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Speaker 2: things like that, and it was it was just yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was a very involved Christian life. I obviously had

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Speaker 2: no other point of reference. So I grew up feeling like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is how it is, this is who God is,

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Speaker 2: and it was everything to me because I didn't know

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Speaker 2: anything else. And there was a lot of faith there,

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Speaker 2: but there was also a lot of fear there. And

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Speaker 2: in some ways, I'm like, what does faith mean without

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Speaker 2: being afforded any other perspective on what might be real? Right,

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Speaker 2: But with that being said, yeah, I strongly identified as

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Speaker 2: a Christian, and as I wrote in my book, and

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Speaker 2: it's kind of nauseating, but like I was like, I

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Speaker 2: don't believe in religion, I have a relationship with Jesus,

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Speaker 2: and so yeah, I had a really strong faith. But

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Speaker 2: that does render you a little bit more vulnerable in

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Speaker 2: some ways obviously than you know, coming into a group

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Speaker 2: being indoctrinated from the starting point of atheism for example.

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Speaker 1: Right totally.

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Speaker 4: I will also just point out that at this time

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Speaker 4: you were finding a lot more comfort in the other

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Speaker 4: realms maybe than the physical one. And there was just

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Speaker 4: some stuff with food that was going on that I

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Speaker 4: think is overarching in the story that I want to

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Speaker 4: touch on at the top.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what was

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Speaker 1: going on there.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. So at the time that I met the group,

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Speaker 2: I was eighteen and I had just finished year twelve,

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Speaker 2: which we call college over here.

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Speaker 1: When you say here you mean Australia, yes, correct, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: sorry for people who are people who don't know the accent, Okay, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Australia, yeah, Camera, Australia. So I it's the capital, but

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Speaker 2: a lot of people don't realize it the capital of

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Speaker 2: Australia because it's very quiet little city. But yeah, so

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Speaker 2: had finished school and I had in my last year

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Speaker 2: of school developed anarexia. So yeah, it was new to me. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: it was new to my mum. The people in my

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Speaker 2: life didn't necessarily know how to deal with it. No

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Speaker 2: one knows how to deal with with a needing disorder,

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Speaker 2: a mental illness, right, it's always just like you figure

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Speaker 2: it out as you go. But I'd had a challenging

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Speaker 2: year the year before, and yeah, I think that had

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Speaker 2: destabilized me in a lot of ways. But also the

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Speaker 2: way that our schooling system is and it's a weird

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Speaker 2: thing that's specific to Canberra, and I think one other

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Speaker 2: state in Australia is that we have years eleven and

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Speaker 2: twelve separate from all the other schooling years. So I

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Speaker 2: grew up in this very kind of small, sheltered Christian

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Speaker 2: school for most of my schooling years, you know, very

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Speaker 2: small classes about twenty six US. And then I was

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Speaker 2: plunged into a college for years eleven and twelve with

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Speaker 2: so so many it's in one grade. Shockingly, not everyone

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Speaker 2: was a Christian. In fact, most people weren't. It was

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Speaker 2: a really wild experience for me, and I actually loved

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Speaker 2: it because it was it really opened my mind to

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Speaker 2: how beautiful life outside of church could be, but also

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Speaker 2: like how rich and varied and how you could choose

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Speaker 2: your own adventure and it wasn't just this like cut

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Speaker 2: and dried conservative kind of bubble. And so I think

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Speaker 2: with that, I was incredibly insecure and I deeply, deeply

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Speaker 2: wanted to be liked by my peers, but I didn't

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Speaker 2: know how to fit in because I'd come from this

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Speaker 2: very sheltered background, and I think that really added to

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Speaker 2: my anxiety. And it was there were some toxic dynamics

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Speaker 2: going on with the friends that I'd grown up with,

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Speaker 2: and I think my way of coping with all of

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Speaker 2: that was to try and restrict or control something in

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Speaker 2: my life, and that happened to be my food and

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Speaker 2: taken my body and my exercise, and I didn't. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't like I was trying to be skinny. I wasn't

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Speaker 2: trying to you know, there's always something much deeper rooted

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Speaker 2: with eating disorders. But that was the year before and

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Speaker 2: then my mom and I kind of fumbled our way

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Speaker 2: through it together. We learned about it. She took me

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Speaker 2: to a dietician. I started, you know, learning how to

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Speaker 2: eat again, which is, you know, a very weird concept,

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Speaker 2: but that's what people with THETS go through. And then

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Speaker 2: I was really much much better by the time I

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Speaker 2: met the group, but I still wasn't necessarily well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you were.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of a perfect storm.

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Speaker 4: Would this day when you go to my personal favorite

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Speaker 4: place on earth, Borders Bookstore.

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Speaker 2: Do you have a Borders.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, they're dead. They're all dead and gone

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Speaker 1: for years. My god, you guys. A moment of silence

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Speaker 1: rop bookstores. I know, tell us about that first encounter

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Speaker 1: and how you were approached.

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Speaker 2: So I was with a friend in Borders Bookstore and

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Speaker 2: we just caught up. It was my gap year. I

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Speaker 2: was thinking I'll just take a year off and I'll

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Speaker 2: work before I travel with some friends. And yeah, we

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Speaker 2: were just browsing window shopping, very casual hangout. As I

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Speaker 2: was coming out of the store, we were both exiting,

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Speaker 2: one of us was going to catch a bus, and

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Speaker 2: this lady kind of just pops out from behind one

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Speaker 2: of the security things and she's just right in front

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Speaker 2: of me.

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Speaker 1: Jump scared.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, it was a little bit a really polite

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Speaker 2: jump scare. Yeah. And she was very friendly. She was

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Speaker 2: just really really nice, you know, but almost a little

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Speaker 2: bit too nice, you know, But that's how you that's

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Speaker 2: how you approach strangers when you're gonna ask them for

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Speaker 2: a favor. I suppose she introduced herself as an international student.

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Speaker 2: She was studying Australian culture at a university, and she

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Speaker 2: had a clipboard and a pen, and she said, you know,

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Speaker 2: would you mind filling out this survey for me and

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Speaker 2: helping me to add to my data set? And I

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Speaker 2: wanted to be helpful. And it's kind of that social

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Speaker 2: obligation thing. When someone brings that kind of thing on you,

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Speaker 2: you either say no thanks and you ignore them, or

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Speaker 2: you you help them. But at that point in my life,

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Speaker 2: I was very much. People pleasing tendencies want to tell

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Speaker 2: And I also like yea, and I really I respect

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Speaker 2: people who are bold enough to just ask for something

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Speaker 2: from a stranger honestly, like sure, yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean when I was nineteen, I could hardly get

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Speaker 4: anywhere because I'd just be signing everybody's petition, like being

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Speaker 4: like good. Now somebody comes up to me and I

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Speaker 4: just like drop kick their get away from me.

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Speaker 1: No, I still stop and I read the whole thing too.

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Speaker 4: I know, I know, yeah, I went through I went

302
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Speaker 4: the wrong direction. Why did think that she approached you

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Speaker 4: and not your friend?

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Speaker 2: I wish that there was a deep answer to this

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Speaker 2: that I could give you. But really, as we'll talk about,

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Speaker 2: I assume down the track, the nature of this group

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Speaker 2: is it's very predatory, and it's as I experienced it,

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Speaker 2: it's set up too, or it was at the time

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Speaker 2: in lunch part set up to groom women and a

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Speaker 2: specific type of woman. And I think I had the

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Speaker 2: lack of a better word, the look that they were

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Speaker 2: or he was going for. So I was obviously quite skinny.

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Speaker 2: It's all very pale, conventionally good looking, very young. I

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Speaker 2: mean we're both young, obviously but I just had a

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Speaker 2: different body type.

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Speaker 1: Right, and so you do it right? Did you do

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Speaker 1: the quiz initially?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and she gets your contact and full.

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Speaker 2: The way it happened was it was just a bunch

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Speaker 2: of very basic questions and so it was like, you know,

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Speaker 2: what do you like to do in Australia, Like what

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Speaker 2: are your hobbies? They're probably about thirteen questions. Down at

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Speaker 2: the bottom were a couple of questions about religion, and

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Speaker 2: one was like, you know, are you religious? Next one

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Speaker 2: was if so, what religion? And I, you know, thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's an opportunity to share my fate and yeah, and

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Speaker 2: I wrote down I'm Christian, but I don't see it

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Speaker 2: as religion. And she took the pen and paperback from

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Speaker 2: me and she's looking at the clipboard. She kind of

331
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Speaker 2: skims it and then her eyes fall in the last question.

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Speaker 2: She goes, oh, you're a Christian and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I am. And she asked if I would fill out

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Speaker 2: another survey. She said, I'm also studying Australian faith and

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Speaker 2: I would love to know more about your faith. Could

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Speaker 2: I follow up with an email? Which you mind giving

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Speaker 2: your email address and I'll ask you a few questions

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Speaker 2: about your faith and being a very good Christian girl,

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Speaker 2: being trained to always share my faith at every opportunity.

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Speaker 1: I was like absolutely, like such a good tactic. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's smart, you know, it is just a

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Speaker 1: few more questions, like it's no big deal, just ask yeah,

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Speaker 1: or just answer a few more exactly like.

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Speaker 2: You've already gotten this far, like it's you know, you

345
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:41,719
Speaker 2: may as well. And also she gave me a bit

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Speaker 2: of an out, which was cool because I was like,

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Speaker 2: I don't have to fill out you know, a whole

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Speaker 2: other Saturday. I'm going somewhere. My friend, by the way,

349
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Speaker 2: is being completely ignored. It's just standing there awkwardly while

350
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Speaker 2: I have this interaction. And I was like, what, I

351
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,439
Speaker 2: can just give him my email address and then I

352
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Speaker 2: can go in memory way and she'll follow up with

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Speaker 2: something like I don't need to talk to this person anymore.

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Speaker 1: Right, But that was very in Yeah, And there was

355
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Speaker 1: like a bit of a back and forth where you

356
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Speaker 1: kind of like someone else reaches out, you kind of

357
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,040
Speaker 1: decide to stop engaging, but then can you kind of

358
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Speaker 1: walk us through that? Just briefly, it.

359
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Speaker 2: Was just a bunch of unfortunate coincidences that you know,

360
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,120
Speaker 2: helped me kind of get indoctrinated into this group. But basically,

361
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 2: she emailed me back. I filled out the survey. She

362
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,480
Speaker 2: gave me kind of an intense response. It was like, oh, wow,

363
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,480
Speaker 2: your faith is so pure. These answers are beautiful faith

364
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,000
Speaker 2: related answers. And part of me was like, oh, maybe

365
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Speaker 2: maybe that, you know, maybe my answers were really great.

366
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Speaker 2: And then there was another part of me that it's like,

367
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Speaker 2: she doesn't know me, this is weird, and it's fire email, right,

368
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Speaker 2: So it's very easy to just not respond and leave

369
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Speaker 2: it at that, and so that's what I chose to do. Eventually,

370
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Speaker 2: we had a couple more back and forth interactions, but

371
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Speaker 2: you know, I left it a long time between responses.

372
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Speaker 2: I didn't want to keep up the interaction. But then

373
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Speaker 2: I was on a diff all in my lunch break

374
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Speaker 2: and I worked in retail at the time, and I

375
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 2: I was browsing again, and all of a sudden, I

376
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 2: turn around and there is this very friendly lady who

377
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,280
Speaker 2: wants to get me to do a survey for her.

378
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,199
Speaker 2: And she's a student and she's studying Australian culture and

379
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 2: would I mind filling out some questions? And I was like, oh,

380
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 2: I know exactly what this is. I filmed this out before,

381
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,440
Speaker 2: and so I told her that. I was like, great,

382
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 2: I don't have to do anything. I've already done this.

383
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 2: And she pasked my name, and then I told her

384
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Speaker 2: my name's Elizabeth, and immediately she was like, oh my god,

385
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,919
Speaker 2: my friend told me about you. She said your answers

386
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,159
Speaker 2: were amazing on the survey. It's like, whoa, this is

387
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 2: a lot. And again it was that part of me

388
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 2: that very insecure, like eighteen year old part of me

389
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,879
Speaker 2: being like, oh my god, am I that Am I

390
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:49,680
Speaker 2: that amazing?

391
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Speaker 1: I mean it would work on me now, by the way, Yeah, yeah,

392
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,360
Speaker 1: it'd be fair latterie.

393
00:19:58,400 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 2: We'll take you everywhere.

394
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get you went there, Yeah.

395
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 2: One hundred percent, Like have my credit card. But also

396
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 2: it was quite intense. But then there was this other

397
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,680
Speaker 2: part of me that was like, I've ran into these

398
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 2: people twice now, and at that point in my life

399
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 2: as well, you know, I was kind of looking to

400
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 2: engage with my faith a bit more. I think I

401
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,399
Speaker 2: had quite a deep sense of guilt because in my

402
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 2: last year in my school length I tried to break

403
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 2: out of the little bubble that I grew up in

404
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 2: and I became a drama kid, you know, made friends

405
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 2: with everybody, and it was really not what I was

406
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 2: used to and that was very overwhelming for me. But

407
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 2: it was also one of the best times that I'd

408
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 2: ever had drinking, partying, like all of the all of

409
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 2: the difficult teenage behaviors, clubbing, and aside from enjoying it,

410
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 2: there was also this part of me that was like,

411
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 2: this isn't aligned with my values. And in my gap year,

412
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 2: I was like, I really should try and take steps

413
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,399
Speaker 2: to move towards my values again. And so I thought, gosh,

414
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 2: this is quite a coincidence. You know, run into this

415
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,360
Speaker 2: women twice and they eventually shared that they were Christians too,

416
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, maybe this is a bit

417
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 2: of God trying to steer me towards people who will

418
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 2: help me in that journey, right. I think the illusion

419
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 2: of coincidence has a whole lot to do with feeling

420
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 2: like there's some kind of divine hand in this sort

421
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:20,400
Speaker 2: of thing.

422
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, coincidence is my gateway drug always.

423
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

424
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 1: Can you explain the modeling recruitment piece of it? When

425
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,400
Speaker 1: did that come into play and what did they say?

426
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: It was so basically, Yes, I ended up getting to

427
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 2: know them, and it was a bit further down the

428
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 2: track after I'd started doing Bible studies with them that

429
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: I ended up being introduced to the fact that they

430
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 2: do modeling, and obviously talking about it now it's like, oh,

431
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 2: come on, like this is it's it's ridiculous. It sounds

432
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: so absurd, and especially knowing knowing the context now, it's

433
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 2: it's really really quite morbid. But basically, modeling was introduced

434
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 2: as this way of giving glory to God, just the

435
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 2: same as playing music for God or dancing for God

436
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 2: or whatever else you do for God. Everything you do

437
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 2: in life you can do for God. And I liked

438
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 2: that concept at the time. That appealed to.

439
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: Me, including being beautiful, just exhibiting your beauty that God gave.

440
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: You, Yeah, just existing.

441
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the physical kind of matching the MMR. So

442
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 4: if you're outwardly beautiful, you're awardly beautiful.

443
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,959
Speaker 1: So it's a gift. Yes, everyone knows that beautiful people

444
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: are the best neighbor. They're the closest to God. I'm

445
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: so close to God, all three of us we.

446
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: Were worn into this. Yeah, it's absolutely wild and it

447
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: really Oh God, it's it's almost embarrassing to talk about now,

448
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,239
Speaker 2: you know that I that I bought some of that,

449
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, maybe you know again young naive.

450
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: And also by the time they introduced this to me,

451
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 2: I'd already started to kind of feeld trust in them.

452
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 2: And they're very careful to create an emotional and relational

453
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: dependence before they start telling you like weird shit, you

454
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 2: know what I mean.

455
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: Exactly I was gonna ask about that. Sorry to interact,

456
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: but not at all. You know, if you've already been

457
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: doing Bible study with them, like of course, you've then

458
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: developed a trust and a rapport and like, did they

459
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: was their love mombing? Did they make you feel special?

460
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: Like yeah, she's.

461
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 2: Nodding, oh oh yeah yeah. And I could tell as

462
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 2: we've talked, both of you get it. It's it's it's

463
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: like a drug, like being love bombs. I mean, this

464
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 2: is how this is how as we know, toxic one

465
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 2: on one narcissistic relationships happen, abusive relationships happen is a

466
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 2: big love bombing phase at the beginning, creating an emotional dependence.

467
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: And the way I like to break it down in

468
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: my book was it's actually a theory of change with

469
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: me that was originally developed to apply to organization. How

470
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 2: do you get your culture, your work culture to change,

471
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: how do you get people to be invested? And it's

472
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: been taken and applied to the context academically of cult

473
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: and how people are broken down and then rebuilt in

474
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 2: the way that the cult wants them to be ideologically

475
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: in terms of their identity everything. So there's unfreezing and

476
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: then there's change, and then there's refreezing, and the unfreezing

477
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: part is that destabilization, and so part of that is

478
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: the love bombing. And they were they absolutely treated me

479
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: like the sunshine out of my ass, Like they were

480
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: so kind, so sweet. And this is something that I

481
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: didn't want to lean too much into in my book,

482
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: but I think it might have came across the friendships

483
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 2: that I grew up with and the bubble that I

484
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: grew up in. It really wasn't a bubble where I

485
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: felt like I was necessarily like complimented or loved or

486
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: appreciated all. And I'm words of affirmation, girly, and yeah,

487
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 2: it was like so intoxicating to me that my little

488
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 2: insecure heart was getting all of this reassurance and all

489
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 2: of this love and you know, all of this kindness,

490
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: and I had this huge sense of belonging. And so

491
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 2: many people will describe the same experience. When you first

492
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 2: start being indoctrinated and recruited into a cult, it feels euphoric.

493
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's all women too, right. Were there any

494
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: men you interacted with?

495
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: There were some that there weren't in the core group,

496
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: and I met them much later on, and it was

497
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: a little strange to me. I was like, why is

498
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: it only women? And becomes evident later why, But yeah,

499
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 2: it was mostly women. It felt like this really safe community.

500
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 2: And we studied the Bible together. We prayed together. I

501
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 2: mean the one is threatening about that.

502
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 4: That would get me for sure. You guys didn't pray together.

503
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 4: You prayed together for hours and hours and hours. And

504
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 4: you're not just reading the Bible. They're making the Bible

505
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 4: come alive for you. And it's making your old church

506
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 4: look like kid look like Chuck E Cheese looks like

507
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 4: Chuck E Cheese.

508
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

509
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that you put that so well, it's so true.

510
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: It really started to make my old church feel completely juvenile.

511
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: Like when they first asked me to do the Bible studies.

512
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 2: I was like, yes, I've been wanting to do something

513
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: like this for a long time. They really exemplified the

514
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 2: values that they said they had. And it wasn't just

515
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: like on a Sunday they exemplified those values. It was

516
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 2: every day. They started telling me they would get up

517
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 2: early to pray. How just how early. They didn't disclose

518
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: to me at the beginning, but of course they talked

519
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: about Jesus and God like they were a really close

520
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 2: personal friend rather than almost like an abstract concept that's

521
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: there to help you if you're having a hard time.

522
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: And I loved that. I wanted to be like. I

523
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: was like, this is what I've been looking for, This

524
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: is what I was asking God to help me find.

525
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, looking back now, it's easy for me,

526
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 4: and we have so many parallels in our lives. So

527
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,719
Speaker 4: I'm talking about us both to be like, you just

528
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 4: needed some friends.

529
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't.

530
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: Maybe a sorority would have been great or.

531
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 4: Like something, but this kind of like played into maybe

532
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 4: some underlying like O. C. D. Eating stuff and just

533
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 4: like control stuff. And now you're surrounded by these really

534
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 4: nice women and glory.

535
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 2: B Oh my god. I probably just needed to join

536
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 2: the local so tage.

537
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: Really when you said glory for a full second, I

538
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: was like, is that like CARDI B Like, who was that? She?

539
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: Who?

540
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: Okay? That is that is a good rapper name. I'm

541
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: just saying it is it sounds like maybe or from

542
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: what I remember from reading as well, maybe the hours

543
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: that you were getting up was kind of the first

544
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: thing that was like a little bit off tell us

545
00:27:59,400 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: about that.

546
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: So originally it was introduced to me as like, oh, well,

547
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: we all get up quite early to pray, and you know,

548
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: it's kind of this time where it's just you're dedicating

549
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: the first part of your data God, and that's really special.

550
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: You know, before the busyness of the world kicks in,

551
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: you're having this quiet moment with him and it's an

552
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: intentional effort. I was like, that sounds awesome. I'm going

553
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: to try it. And there was obviously a part of

554
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: me that was like, I want to impress these women.

555
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 2: I want to show them that I'm invested as well,

556
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: because I was that far along emotionally that I really yeah,

557
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,959
Speaker 2: I wanted to show them that I could emulate their

558
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: behaviors and be a part of that group. They started

559
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: by saying, Oh, it's like five am that we normally

560
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: get up. That's what I'd recommend for you. It's like

561
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: I can, I can do that. So I started getting

562
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: up at five am to pray, and again I was

563
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: writing this kind of like spiritual emotional high with this group,

564
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: and everything felt inspiring to me. It was like the

565
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: world was just in additional color like HD. Everything was

566
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: just amazing. God's hand was in everything.

567
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: It's like being in love.

568
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: Yes, And that's what it felt like.

569
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: The infatuation phase totally, yeah, one hundred percent. You write

570
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: about how your friends were like you should get sleep,

571
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: like you should sleep actually, and like how did people

572
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: in your life react to some of these behavioral these

573
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: early behavioral changes.

574
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: They thought I was behaving oddly and I was, and

575
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: you know, and this is another thing, like when you

576
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: start getting indoctored by a group, your personality changes right

577
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: to fit in with that group. There are social norms

578
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: that you slowly absorb and started hearing to you. But

579
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: then when you're interacting with someone who's not part of

580
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: that group, they're like, what is going on? And so

581
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: I think they started to notice behavioral changes in me

582
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: at the beginning, and then when I told them about

583
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: me getting up early. I confided in a friend and

584
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: that this was at a point where I was a

585
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: bit bobbly in terms of getting to know these women.

586
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: I had moments where I was like, it wasn't all

587
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: like amazing and yes, I'm on board with everything. I

588
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: really did take time to think about things. They took

589
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: a lot of charactists strategically bring me around. They were

590
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: very careful about what they revealed to me and when.

591
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: But there were still moments where I was like, this

592
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: just feels a little bit much, you know, and I

593
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: don't know what's right or normal anymore because their social

594
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: norms are so divorced from these people's. But you know,

595
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: they're so committed to God. You know, that's what the

596
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 2: Bible says. It takes, you know, it's giving you all.

597
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 2: And so they carefully crafted this view of like other Christians.

598
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: To me, that was like these people, you know, they're

599
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: not that committed. They are kind of lukewarm and wishy washy,

600
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: and they'll act like Christians on Sunday and then they'll

601
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: have a completely different life all the other days. And

602
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 2: you know, is that the way you want to live?

603
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: So already I was kind of judging my old friends

604
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 2: and the old life and the old church, and so

605
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: I didn't really trust that what they had to say

606
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: about my experience with these women was accurate or whether

607
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: it was informed by just a lukewarm face. And they

608
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: really also they they made it seem like there was

609
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: satan and everything else.

610
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: Oh there was satan and everything. Yes, yeah, yeah, you

611
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: does that resonate with you, Megan, It all resonates with me.

612
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 4: I mean we did it. We did a podcast with

613
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 4: Carolyn Costin, who's an eating disorder specialist, and she was

614
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: talking about your I'm using quotations for people listening, You're

615
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 4: eating disorder voice and how it just like takes you

616
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 4: down this road where people no longer can talk to

617
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 4: you because the voice in your head says back, like

618
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 4: they don't understand, they're not held to a high enough standard.

619
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 4: They they're not disciplined, they're not disciplined, and they don't

620
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 4: get it, and they're now like like two d like

621
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 4: nothing they say can reach me.

622
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: And those are my safe people. So I need them

623
00:31:58,920 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: to be.

624
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: Batter not me worse right, Yes, yeah, oh my god, yes, no,

625
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 3: that is such a good way of putting it the

626
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 3: more you say, I'm like, I need to know more

627
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: about your.

628
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 4: Story, a voice of your stories. Really, Yeah, we're going

629
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 4: to hang out with you for sure someday, I hope so.

630
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's really and your mom is like such

631
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 4: a wonderful person and you guys have this wonderful relationship

632
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 4: and she's just kind of in her world getting her

633
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 4: daughter out of this shaky physical condition, and you're coming

634
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 4: back around and then suddenly you're kind of disappearing all

635
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 4: the time and you don't you don't trust her the

636
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 4: same way anymore.

637
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: And that's heartbreaking. Oh, it's really hard to read.

638
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: It was. It was heartbreaking. Yeah, I became an absolute weirdo,

639
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 2: and you know, she's trying to figure out what is

640
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: going on, but I was. And it's wild because you know,

641
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: I think I put it in the book, the way

642
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: that people would describe experiencing someone coming from famous and

643
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: the same street for so many culting groups or high

644
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: control groups was that these people all had cheshire cat smiles,

645
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: which is a really eerie way of talking about you know,

646
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: but it's true, right, like me to.

647
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: Give us one oh lot, we won't put it on socials.

648
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: Kind of just like Dead Eyes.

649
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: The Dead Eyes, like the movie Smile Yeah, yeah, scary.

650
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: I love that movie.

651
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: The second the second one is really good.

652
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, although I found like, sorry, I didn't get the

653
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: end of that. I was like, this is what am

654
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: I supposed to make of this? I like a nice

655
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: neat ending.

656
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 4: Drag that's a real it's dream like yeah, smile to

657
00:33:49,720 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 4: sponsored by Okay, So they have weird smiles and you're

658
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 4: kind of like in a for a lack of a

659
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 4: better word, manic episode, getting love by by these people,

660
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 4: just being like trying. People are like, yeah, let's meet

661
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 4: for a coffee, and you're like, Jesus would love this.

662
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: I'm making this up completely, but Jesus would love this chair,

663
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?

664
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 4: Just everything spiritualized and like they're like, what the hell

665
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 4: are you talking about?

666
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: Oh my god? The chair thing absolutely on the money.

667
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: So like one of the things that was weird, like

668
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 2: when I first walked into their apartment, when I first

669
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: met up with them, the walls looked weirdly there and

670
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: I didn't know. I just thought, oh, they must have

671
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 2: just moved in. In reality, they had taken down all

672
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: of the pictures of like the Leader and all the

673
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 2: weird they called.

674
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: Oh my god, damn.

675
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: They were so careful to basically pretend that they were

676
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: these people that they weren't for months and months and months.

677
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: I just thought they're regular Christians.

678
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: Which they admitted to you later on. Yeah, they admitted

679
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: that they were hiding information from you on the show

680
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: later on. Yeah, actually this was all for you. Yeah,

681
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: so we get the story. It's very weird.

682
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 4: It hasn't already, but yeah, so yeah, you're like, oh,

683
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 4: all these walls are bare, they just have this really

684
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 4: sad Jesus picture hanging up, and but they lived together,

685
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 4: and that seemed like a safe place for you to Yeah.

686
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah totally looking back, Yeah, probably questionable. But

687
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't very good at picking up on those. And

688
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 2: I think also, like I was taught to respect elders,

689
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: respect people who are old. All these women were older

690
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: than me, respect people in the church, and trust people

691
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: in the church. Like, if you tell me you're a Christian,

692
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: that's already an understanding that we have that you're a

693
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: safe person. Right, That's certainly not how we see it nowadays.

694
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also hard when it's women. It's hard

695
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: when it's women we're taught to have more suspicion or

696
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 1: trepidation about men. And when it's a group of older women, like,

697
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: that's a group of older women giving me attention. That's

698
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:06,959
Speaker 1: all I want, all I want.

699
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 2: So there was always like this empty chair. No matter

700
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: what everyone was doing, there was an empty chair, you know,

701
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 2: whether it was like to the side or next to

702
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 2: everybody else. And later when the weird things were normal

703
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: to me, they were like, this is Jesus's chair, this

704
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: is where Jesus sits.

705
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: It's like one out for the homies, but leaving a

706
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: chair for Jesus.

707
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 4: While knowing me, I would walk in and sit in

708
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 4: that chair, I know, as you would like.

709
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 5: Yes, you're sitting on him.

710
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 1: Immediately kicked out. So how and when were you introduced

711
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: to the idea of pastor Joshua before you ever actually

712
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, madam, Yeah, so that.

713
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 2: Was during the Bible studies. And the way that they

714
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: did it again really interesting, Like they would bring in

715
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: the person who they thought I need to relate to

716
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 2: the most, or who would they watched me really closely

717
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: and they'd be like, what's she ready for? Now? Who

718
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: would be best to deliver this one? This Bible study

719
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: to her like it was all very strategic, as I

720
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: would find out once I was fully in and they

721
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 2: started planting a little, you know, tidbits, little anecdotes about

722
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: this man called Pastor Joshua who was a Christian pastor

723
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 2: in South Korea, and they really looked up to and admired.

724
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 2: And that's as much as they would tell me about him.

725
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 2: But you know, at the beginning, I was like, oh wow,

726
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: he sounds like a really lovely person. You know, he

727
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 2: was giving things away to the poor, he was trying

728
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 2: to get closer to Jesus through prayer. And the anecdotes

729
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: started to get a little bit more unhinged, the feather

730
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: along we got. And I don't know if this is

731
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: true for US culture, but Australian culture very much like

732
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 2: we have this tall poppy syndrome kind of vibe going on.

733
00:37:53,440 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 2: So if anyone's like doing too much, we're like sit down, Like,

734
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 2: don't you get a big cared.

735
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 1: No, we do not have that in Amo. Yeah, yeah, total.

736
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: I was at that. We're kind of like, okay, it's

737
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: getting weird now and you're making all the rest of

738
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 2: us feel bad, so stop, all right. I don't know

739
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 2: what it is. But when I was hearing these stories

740
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: about this guy, I'm like, why is he doing so much?

741
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 2: Like there was this little part of it just like

742
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: he's too amazing exactly, my god, you're making all the

743
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: rest of us look bad. And the examples of what

744
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: he was doing were so out there towards the end

745
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 2: that I was like, what who is this guy? Like?

746
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: Why did they keep bringing him up? They were telling me,

747
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 2: you know, stories about how he went into a cave

748
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: and prayed for forty days to Jesus just to set

749
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 2: a condition, which I imagine we'll talk about later, to

750
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: show Jesus like how committed he was to seeing him

751
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: and to being closer to it. And I was just

752
00:38:59,080 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: praying that.

753
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would be annoyed by that.

754
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, ye fasting. Yeah, he didn't bring snacks nothing, He

755
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 2: wasn't even drinking water. No.

756
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: I would be like, one d.

757
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm doing my best here, you know,

758
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: I why stop it? Like I was already getting up

759
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: at five am. It was taking everything. And this guy's

760
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: like hasn't stopped praying for forty days and forty nights,

761
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: hasn't had a sip of water, you know, defying all

762
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: the laws of like yeah, allegedly, and then they were

763
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: telling me about how he'd read the Bible like a

764
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 2: thousand times covered a cover.

765
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: Okay, should I.

766
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? And I did. I did

767
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 2: calculate that later once, like years after I came out,

768
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: because I was like, it is a lot, right. I

769
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 2: think it was like something like thirty six straight years

770
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: of reading the Bible without sleep, food or water.

771
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: Wow, or any breaks absolutely.

772
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 2: Did not happen. It could be completely off, but it

773
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 2: was a lot of years of straight reading the Bible.

774
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, and so I kept curing about and I

775
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: was really trying to be like, you know, because I

776
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: would say, oh, wow, that's a lot, and they're like, well,

777
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 2: you know, with God, anything's possible. I was like, fair,

778
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: that's fair. Yeah, that's so true. And so it's like

779
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 2: I have a bit more faith here. He sounds amazing.

780
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: I should really just be admiring this guy. But I

781
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: still don't know why it's only him that they're bringing

782
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: up right and throughout learning this Bible study series, which

783
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 2: you know, as it turns out, is a real strategic

784
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: course in I guess, facilitating the brainwashing or indoctrination process.

785
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's slowly. At the beginning, the Bible studies

786
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 2: are very benign, but they're delivered really inspiringly. It gives

787
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: you a bit of it feels like there's like a

788
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 2: fresh angle of the Bible, but it's nothing blasphemous. If

789
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 2: you're used to, you know, growing up with the Bible

790
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 2: and you have experienced with it, it's like, oh, wow,

791
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 2: that's a really cool way of thinking about it. I

792
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: hadn't thought about that. But over time, it just slowly

793
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 2: shifts your perspective, you know, degree by degree, until you're

794
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 2: being told something absolutely wild. But the sense that I

795
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 2: had when I was moving through those Bible studies was

796
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: I was so excited to do the next one because

797
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: they were amazing, and you know, occasionally i'd be like, oh,

798
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way, and

799
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: I would challenge it, but they would explain it so

800
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: well and they just had an answer for everything. And

801
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 2: so the sense I had, especially as I started to

802
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 2: grow closer to these women, spend more time with them,

803
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 2: become a little bit more indoctrinated, was that there was

804
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 2: some kind of secret that I couldn't quite grasp yet,

805
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 2: and I desperately wanted to know what it was, and

806
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 2: they were hinting towards something, and I felt like every

807
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: Bible study, we moved a little closer to it, and

808
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: there was this look in their eyes, like, well, tell

809
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 2: you the truth soon, and I it was like living

810
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: in a movie. I was like, what am I about

811
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: to find out?

812
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: So mysterious? I'm so serious? So anyway, can you tell

813
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: a little bit about setting conditions and what that was

814
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: looking like more and more in her life?

815
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So setting conditions it was actually first from memory.

816
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 2: It was first introduced to me when I was starting

817
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 2: to get up early to pray. So they were like,

818
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: there are conditions that we set to sort of demonstrate

819
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: to God that we're invested in this and we're putting

820
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: you first, you know. And the concept wasn't unfamiliar to me,

821
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 2: Like I'd grown up in a church where you know,

822
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: people would fast and pray quite regularly for extended periods

823
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: of time. Sometimes my father he fasted every Sunday ever

824
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 2: since the age of thirty up until about forty years later,

825
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: to you know, just so we could pick a prey.

826
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 2: And it was just a water fast every Sunday. And

827
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 2: I just grew up knowing that, and it's kind of honestly,

828
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: like the whole concept is a little messed up in general.

829
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: Really if you think about it, it's like, well, is

830
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 2: God going to be like, you know, she's she's praying,

831
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 2: but she she's not hungry at all, you know, like

832
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 2: she's not having a bad time.

833
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 4: Well, it's like torture yourself so that you're also feeling

834
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 4: the pain that, yes, Jesus felt.

835
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: I we pasted once a month in mainstream Mormonism. That

836
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: was very traditional one Sunday a month to make yourself

837
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: feel like what he felt or I can't remember exactly now,

838
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: but I think it was something like that. I think

839
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know if it was literally that,

840
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: but it was like to show your devotion and some capacity.

841
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and in this religion, you're you're trying to be

842
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 4: more like Christ's and God's wife, not his child, you know,

843
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 4: so you're not doing that dependent little like give me this,

844
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 4: give me that you're his partner who's like I will

845
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 4: carry this cross with you for lack of a better word,

846
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 4: because it's very literal.

847
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 2: Exactly it is, Yeah, it is, And you're right, like

848
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 2: the way that I learned down the track was you know,

849
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 2: this is why Christians average, quote unquote Christians are not

850
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,439
Speaker 2: at the same level as we are. This is why

851
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: we have to sacrifice more. As I got to know

852
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: them better, I discovered like, yeah, they often do fast

853
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 2: and pray, but you know, they set conditions around anything.

854
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 2: They set conditions to read their Bible a certain amount

855
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: of time or certain amount of pages a day. They

856
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 2: set conditions to share their faith or talk to wasn't

857
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 2: sharing their faith, it was asking them to do a

858
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 2: survey a certain amount of people every day or every week.

859
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,439
Speaker 2: They set conditions to get up at a certain time

860
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 2: to pray.

861
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 1: So it's just goals. It's just really ambitious, strict goals

862
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: to advance yourself and the religion basically.

863
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: Correct, Like, it really is just goal setting, and they

864
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: just rebranded it. But there was another element to it

865
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: where it was, like, like you mentioned, Megan, it was

866
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 2: to harm or cause discomfortable pain to yourself in order

867
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 2: to prove to God that you're devoted in and to

868
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: feel Jesus's pain.

869
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 1: And if you're not in pain, you're not being devoted enough. Basically,

870
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,439
Speaker 1: if you're not suffering in some capacity, correct, yea, yes,

871
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: that's us super healthy, it's sick.

872
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

873
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 1: I found it interesting that you had a trip to

874
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: England planned and this makes them really freak out. Can

875
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: you tell us why?

876
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, part of the indoctrination process obviously involves a

877
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 2: really high degree of immersion, and so I was spending

878
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: more and more time with them. I was increasingly at

879
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 2: their house, praying with them, going to church services, you know,

880
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: doing the Bible studies, just have just hanging out. Like

881
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 2: I wanted to be around them more and more. They

882
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: were pulling me in a lot closer, and I think

883
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 2: that they were worried at the point that I was

884
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 2: at I hadn't learned enough that like I hadn't learned

885
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 2: the truth, the ultimate truth about their group. I wasn't

886
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 2: I don't think I was comfortably in from their perspective

887
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 2: that they felt like they could just let me go

888
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: out into the world and I wouldn't be potentially pulled

889
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 2: back into life, right.

890
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: And people are like telling you not to google this

891
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: church a lot, correct, and so they don't want you

892
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: accessing any outside information or outside perspectives at all, because

893
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of lies about our friend Joshua who

894
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 1: is according to them, according to them, meditating and fasting

895
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: all the time, and people are like persecuting him. So

896
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: there has been this ongoing process of like, despite not

897
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: living on a compound or anything, they are slowly isolating

898
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: you from your previous life and your family. And when

899
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: your mom expressed to you concern about the group with

900
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: some print outs tell us about what happened and how

901
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: people reacted in the group.

902
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 2: My mom and I were always incredibly closed, but they

903
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,919
Speaker 2: slowly started to drive a witch between me and my mom,

904
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 2: and they use Bible versus to support it. There was

905
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: something along the lines of like Christ hasn't come to

906
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: bring peace but a sword. You know, it's a.

907
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 4: Separator against mother or daughter against veryper cult I was raised,

908
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 4: and that was like RV right, really.

909
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: Right, Oh you're familiar.

910
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was yeah, And be like there's a

911
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: holy war and you're gonna have to be divided from

912
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 1: your loved ones basically in order.

913
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 4: To know human connection even compares to the one that

914
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 4: you have and those other realms.

915
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,879
Speaker 1: So don't get too attached.

916
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 2: Absolutely, like there's this higher truth, and the more that

917
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 2: you're willing to separate yourself from the people that you

918
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 2: should according to the world quote unquote love, that they're

919
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: more devoted you are, and and that the higher you'll

920
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 2: go in your relationship with God, you know, the closer

921
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 2: you'll get to Him and fulfilling this you know, holy

922
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 2: divine purpose. And so yeah, there was that impressed upon me,

923
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: and there were a whole host of act but it

924
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: was also just like me slowly building trust in them

925
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: and them being the people who got to define what

926
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 2: faith was and meant. And by virtue of that fact,

927
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 2: you know, my mum wasn't anymore because she didn't have

928
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 2: that high truth that I had, right, So it was

929
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 2: hard for me because I was used to sharing everything

930
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: with her. When she tells this story from her perspective,

931
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: what it was like for her was she was always

932
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,879
Speaker 2: used to us having a completely transparent, open relationship where

933
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 2: I would share everything with her and vice versa, you know,

934
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 2: and it took her a long time to realize that

935
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 2: I stopped telling the truth at some point. And you know,

936
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 2: it wasn't out of malusk, it was out of this.

937
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: She wouln't understand the times that I did try and

938
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 2: share things with her about what I was learning. She

939
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 2: she did kind of and rightly, so she got her

940
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 2: back up a little bit, you know, she was like,

941
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 2: what do you mean, why are they telling you this?

942
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 2: This is very intense, Like I'm seeing you go over

943
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: there all the time, full on, you know, why are

944
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,439
Speaker 2: they so much better than your old church? Like what's

945
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: so different about them? And at a certain point I

946
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 2: was like, well, she just doesn't get it. And I

947
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: shared this with the group at the time and they

948
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 2: were like, look, it's really common because Satan will always

949
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 2: try to use those closest to you to get you

950
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 2: to stop pursuing what God wants you to pursue. That's

951
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 2: how he gets to you. And I was like, that

952
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 2: makes sense, I guess, because.

953
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: What a nightmare. What a nightmare.

954
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 4: So your mom handed you a bunch of papers that

955
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 4: was printed our evidence from the internet that like this

956
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 4: is a cult, and your immediate reaction was get that

957
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 4: away from me.

958
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 1: You ran away, lock the door.

959
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 4: It's also it's also such a matter for you, and

960
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 4: I just like locked the door and said, ye, stay

961
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 4: away from me. And that's when your family kind of

962
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 4: realizes we blast a group on her.

963
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: Yes, So then you have one single source of truth

964
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: once all of this outside contact is sort of cut off, Like, yes,

965
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: you're looking to them for the answers to everything. What

966
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,479
Speaker 1: is what is the right way to show my faith?

967
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: What is the right way to eat? What is the

968
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: right way to time to wake up? What?

969
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 2: You know? Everything?

970
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: And that's when it starts, it seems from the outside,

971
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: that's the point at which the indoctrination becomes really fully strong,

972
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: once you're cut off from everyone in your old self.

973
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, once they succeed in breaking that sense of trust,

974
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 2: you know. And it's a long process, like it took months.

975
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 2: It took months and months, and I really struggled with

976
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,479
Speaker 2: it at first because it was especially with Mom, because

977
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 2: I was like, I just missed being able to share

978
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: everything with her, but I can't and there's something more

979
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 2: important than me, so I have to be faithful to

980
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 2: what I'm learning. And yeah, it was really quite frightening.

981
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: Yeah I was only eighteen, you know, I mean.

982
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: And so they've done this whole They've laid the groundwork,

983
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: they've like built this foundation to give you the next

984
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: piece of information that if they had told you from

985
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 1: the beginning, you would have run away screaming no quiz.

986
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 4: Just straight up at the mall. Walked straight up to

987
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 4: you and said this bet.

988
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

989
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: But at this point now you're fully in You're you're

990
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: not looking to other people in your life for answers.

991
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: So now is the perfect time to tell you that

992
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: Pastor Joshua.

993
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 2: What was basically the messire of the Second Coming, he's Jesus.

994
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 2: He's essentially Yeah, he's Jesus V two like two point zero.

995
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: And he's alive in Korea, correct, in prison.

996
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 2: In prison. Not his fault, people just really mean.

997
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, people are persecuting.

998
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

999
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: And not only was Pastor Joshua, he wasn't just in prison.

1000
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: He was in prison because he'd been convicted of sexual assault.

1001
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: And this is something they tell you and expect you

1002
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: to be cool with immediately. And we are going to

1003
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: leave part one here right now so we can get

1004
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: into how you were chosen to potentially be a bride

1005
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: of this man. Come back next week and hear the

1006
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: craziness that is part two, as we learn more about

1007
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: Pastor Joshua and his history and his claims and his

1008
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: real name, Megan, the time has come to ask you

1009
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: the question, would you join Jesus morning Star under these

1010
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 1: same circumstances?

1011
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 4: Well, it's ironic because once you hear part two, if

1012
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 4: they would have just started me off with the secret,

1013
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 4: I think I would have joined. I wouldn't have joined

1014
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 4: the way Liz joined because it was very like really

1015
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 4: long Bible studies and just slow burn type of things

1016
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 4: that I'm too adhd to sit through.

1017
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 2: M m.

1018
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 4: But if they would have just thrown me into the

1019
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 4: third act, I might be a little more inclined. And

1020
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 4: you'll have to listen to part two to realize what

1021
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 4: that actually is, all right.

1022
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: I think in general, while a Bible study group is

1023
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: not my particular area that I would be susceptible too,

1024
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: I do think the group of women studying something together

1025
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: would get me, especially it's like anything I'm interested in

1026
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: a group of older women being like we can teach you. Look,

1027
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: we're we're studying, we're exploring this topic together, and we're

1028
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 1: diving in in a way you've never done before.

1029
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 4: Like that's my fucking dream. So I would definitely be

1030
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 4: getting cool friends. Totally there, I am. I'm in Yeah,

1031
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 4: if I think about it that way, Yeah.

1032
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: All right, we'll stay tuned next week to see where

1033
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: it all goes.

1034
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 4: Yes, grate us five stars too, and remember to follow

1035
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 4: your gut, watch out for red flags, and never ever

1036
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 4: trust me.

1037
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: By This has been an exactly right production hosted by

1038
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: me Lo La Blanc and me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior

1039
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: producer is Geehali. This episode was John Bradley.

1040
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1041
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner.

1042
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly Ambert.

1043
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 4: Church Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth, Georgia

1044
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:13,720
Speaker 4: Hartstark and Danielle Kramer.

1045
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1046
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

1047
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

1048
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1049
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1050
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts