1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stop 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I am 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: Christian Sager, and we're going to be talking about a 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: great combination of things today isolation, tanks, dolphins, and psychedelics. Yeah, 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: the creature from the Black Lagoon will actually show up, 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: Cold War era anti espionage, weird science. It's it's quite 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: a package. You couldn't make this up. Like if you 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: wrote a fictional account of a guy like John C. Lily, 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: it would seem absurd, but this is a life he led. 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: Yeah indeed. I mean even the fictionalized accounts of the man, 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: I feel that they don't quite capture the weirdness and 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: strangeness and just mind expanding awesomeness of his actual story. 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: They don't know. So, but before we roll right in, 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: because I think we should really just dive into the 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: deep been no pun intended with John C. Lily. Uh 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: do we just want to remind our audience that, uh, 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, we don't just do the podcast Stuff to 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind as a multi media conglomerate, and uh, 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: you can visit us at Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: Dot com where you can find blog posts by us. 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,559 Speaker 1: The podcast is obviously there, of course, but for every 23 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: podcast episode we add related content so in case you're 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: curious about learning more, uh, there's places that you can go. 25 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: And then we also do videos as well. That's right. 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: And Hey, wherever you listen to it, be it iTunes 27 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: or uh Spotify or any of the various so wonderful 28 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: platforms out there, you can support the show by simply 29 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: giving us a positive rating and a positive review of 30 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: the platform. Allows that kind of interaction. Yeah, and the 31 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 1: last thing I'll say is before we get into Lily, 32 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: is don't forget to follow us on social media. If 33 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: you're on Facebook, you're on Twitter, you're on Tumbler. We're 34 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: on all those platforms as Blow the Mind. And we 35 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: don't only post our own stuff, but we curate lots 36 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: of weird science e bizarre audity type stuff that we 37 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: find throughout the day as we're doing our research. That's right. 38 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Lily first. Why are we covering 39 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: him Because Lily, for people who don't know, comes up frequently. 40 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: I'd say in the last year of doing the show, 41 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: he's come up at least four or five times. Yeah, 42 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: and in past episodes, I'm I know that we haven't 43 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: had at least three episodes that have dealt with him, 44 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: at least in small portions. Right, Yeah, you guys did 45 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: a dolphin episode. You and Julie did a dolphin episode. 46 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: And then there was the what was it, the like 47 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: kind of crazy rock star life of Scientists. Yeah, yeah, 48 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 1: we did when there was just kind of a sampler 49 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: platter of different real life scientists that had sort of 50 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: a weird side to them. But Lily is one of 51 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: those individuals first of all, that, as we've been saying, 52 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: deserves a deeper dive, He deserves a closer look because 53 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: he was just he was into too many things. He 54 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: really lived too many lives to just try and condense 55 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: it to a quick little segment about his psychedelic dolphin research, 56 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: which is what most people may think of when we've 57 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: mentioned John's will. This is one of those moments too, 58 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: where I feel like the podcast format is really at 59 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: an advantage here because in our case, you know, like 60 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: lots of the stuff that I've read about Lily, like 61 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: you said, either focuses on one aspect of his work 62 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: or another. Right, It's like it's either like the isolation 63 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: tanks or it's just the dolphins. But I feel like 64 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: we have the opportunity here to like gather a lot 65 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: of different resources, come together and kind of try to 66 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: piece it all together and figure out this like epic 67 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: figure somehow, and especially the like like you said to 68 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: like um. For those of you who don't know, there's 69 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: been two feature films, at least two that we're made 70 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: based on Lily as a character. The first was Day 71 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: of the Dolphin with George C. Scott, and then the 72 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: second one is Altered States, of Course, which is you know, 73 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: we're huge fans of here, and it stars William Hurt, 74 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, of course as this Lily kind of figure 75 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: who takes acid in isolation tanks and then finds himself 76 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: the evolving basically right into various forms of proto humanity. Yeah, 77 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: so he's he's he's a figure that had the castle 78 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: a large shadow across our popular culture. And I think 79 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: that can also be a stumbling block because you think 80 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: of you might think of that older uh John C. 81 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: Lily kind of a post hippie nut job with with 82 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: a coonskin cap, talking about expanded consciousness and perhaps being 83 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: something of a pariah. Uh, two individuals who were working 84 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: in legitimate scientific areas that he was once a part of. Yeah, 85 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: there were certainly people who did not embrace the direction 86 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: that he went in towards the latter part of his career. 87 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: But so this is what's interesting to me about him, 88 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: especially like once we got into I knew the surface 89 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: level stuff, but going back and looking at his early 90 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: life and how he started off and how kind of 91 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: standardized his scientific career was to begin with, it's really 92 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: fascinating to see where he goes and the kind of 93 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: journey that he takes everybody on. Yeah. Indeed, I mean, 94 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: this is a guy that was trained and met us 95 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: and psycho analysis, biophysics, um. And he went from being 96 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: published as a researcher in scientific journals to writing his 97 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: own books about spirituality and the self. And one of 98 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: the things that's really important about Lily, I think to 99 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: just like our general culture today, it's it's hard to 100 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: think of this because it's from from my entire life. 101 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: It's been this way. But people didn't used to think 102 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: of dolphins as being intelligent mammals. That we're cute and 103 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: cuddly and that we should try to keep from being 104 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: killed in the ocean. Right, Yeah, that's right. I mean, 105 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: you go back far enough. There are various myths that 106 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: involve humans turning into dolphins or vice versa. But generally speaking, 107 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: before the nineteen fifties, dolphins were a pest of fishermen. 108 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: They were something. They were a fatty creature you might 109 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: render down for various products, but nobody was giving a 110 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: lot of thought to what they were thinking, or indeed, 111 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: what their consciousness might consist of. Yeah, and so almost 112 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: every account that I read about Lily traces his research 113 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: with dolphins to how we treat dolphins today, even to 114 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: you know, good or bad however you think of it 115 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: of like theme parks of like Sea World and things 116 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: like that, but like, uh, the interaction that human beings 117 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: have with dolphins or other male uh mammals in the water, 118 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: like whales, uh, you know, in in that kind of 119 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: a setting, you know. Um, he really changed the way 120 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: that we considered them as I guess partners on Earth 121 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: is how he would probably put it. Right. Yeah, It's 122 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: hard to imagine where we'd be right now, uh, considering 123 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: dolphin intelligence without Lily. I mean, I mean, I think 124 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: we would definitely get to this point where we we 125 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: recognize the intelligence of the dolphin, uh and and even 126 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: engaging discussions about its potential personhood. But would we have 127 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: gotten there as quickly? Would we have would we have 128 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: gotten there with as much media attention? And it all 129 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: really came down to him wanting to map human consciousness, 130 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, the dolphin work, the isolation tanks, taking NSTI, 131 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: all of it really boiled to his medical background and 132 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 1: just trying to figure out, like the physicality of human 133 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: consciousness where it was. Yeah, he in in his um 134 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: later on, certainly by by the nineteen seventies, who would 135 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: often talk about the province of the mind, which we 136 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: reference in the title to this episode. Yeah. So here's 137 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: the Lily quote that comes from you know what we 138 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: what we based the title in the episode from He says, 139 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: in the province of the mind, what one believes to 140 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: be true is true or becomes true with certain limits 141 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: to be found experientially and experimentally. These limbs are further 142 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: beliefs to be transcended in the mind. There are no limits. 143 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: That was in nineteen seventy two, so this was this 144 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: was a post dolphin work going into LSD work, I'm assuming, Yeah, 145 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: and I think it this is a It's a great 146 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: quote because it mentions this idea of the province of 147 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,559 Speaker 1: the mind, something that he all of his work throughout 148 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: his life, as you mentioned, seems to be questing for. 149 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: And then it also touches on this idea of subjective truth, 150 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: which becomes an increasingly important part of his work and 151 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: at times a definite flaw in his scientific work. Right. Yeah, 152 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: and it's especially important to consider too. I mean, like 153 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: we say, his whole life here. I read an account 154 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: that when he was sixteen years old, he was verst 155 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: starting to think about this in journals and things like 156 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: that that he was working on, like as a kid. 157 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: This was something that concerned Lily up until his death. 158 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: So let's, uh, let's let's back up a bit then 159 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: and just deal with the Lily timeline. Let's talk about 160 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: where he came from and uh and take listeners and 161 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: ourselves on a journey through his life whereas much of 162 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: it as we can actually digest in about an hour's time. Yeah, 163 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: and I'll say this too before we get into it. 164 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: I found that there were a lot of differing accounts too. 165 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: I mean, he was alive at just the right moment 166 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: in time where it was. It wasn't like we couldn't 167 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: log his life as we do now with social media, 168 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And there's like some different accounts. So, 169 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: like I said, sixteen years old, he supposedly wrote this essay. 170 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: He was born in nineteen fifteen in Saint Paul, Minnesota. Uh. 171 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: And and this is the specific question that was quoted 172 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: as being the title of his essay, how can the 173 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: mind render itself sufficiently objective to study itself? That's pretty 174 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: heavy for a sixteen year old. I don't think I 175 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: had thoughts like that until much later. Yeah, that's that's 176 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: a that that's he was thinking big for for that agent. 177 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: Really Yeah, unless that's some like revisionist history on his part. 178 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: But uh, the other thing that I thought was really 179 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: interesting is my impression from the readings is that Lily 180 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: came from a very wealthy family I think, uh, and 181 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: his father, it sounds like, wanted him to become a banker, 182 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: but Lily wanted to be a scientist, and so eventually 183 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: his father kind of came around and supported him going 184 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: to school to study science, but also backed him financially 185 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: in some of his research after school as well. Yeah, 186 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: that's the that's the sense that I get from some 187 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: of the resources who are looking at uh. And I 188 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: do have to to mention that, as far as we know, 189 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: they're not a good, like solid concise biography out there, 190 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: not yet. Hopefully somebody's working on it. There are some 191 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: very fine resources that we used for this episode. Will 192 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: cite those as we go. Yeah, this is a book 193 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: slash movie dying to be made. Yeah. Yeah, I think that, 194 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: like in the same way that characters like Reich that 195 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show before Shulgun just make 196 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: for great like potential fictionalizations. Uh. And I think you know, 197 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: I just learned this after we recorded the Reich episode. 198 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: There's a feature film coming out about Reich. Oh yeah, yeah. 199 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: When I was searching for artwork for it, photos from 200 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: the premier came out. Alright, So lially goes on. He 201 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: gets his physics degree from cal Tech in receives a 202 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: doctorate in medicine from the University of Pennsylvania two and 203 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: as a faculty member, he studies biophysics and psycho analysis 204 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: at the University of Pennsylvania's primarily interested in the physical 205 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: structures of the brain where that the conscious self might 206 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 1: be found. So that's pretty interesting, uh in that like 207 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: he got his he got his doctorate in medicine, right, 208 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: and then he continues to do research or take classes 209 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: as well as he's a faculty member. Like my understanding 210 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: was the psychoanalysis stuff wasn't quite yet in the field 211 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: when he was in school, but he's still dabbling and 212 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: learning more and adding everything to his resume. Yeah. From 213 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: an early point, we're seeing in a guy who has 214 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: this goal in mind, this mystery that he wants to crack, 215 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: and he's gonna throw everything he has at it. And 216 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: he's gonna throw he's gonna utilize what whatever tools he 217 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: can draw on, be they uh, disciplines, pharmaceuticals, technologies. We 218 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: see this throughout his life. Yeah, and in some cases 219 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: it's also like where he's going to get the support from. Right. 220 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: I think all of us who have like large scale 221 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: creative endeavors that we're trying to push and can't find 222 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: necessarily the financial backing end up making compromises and uh, 223 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: come World War two, Lillie ends up doing research. Uh. 224 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: Mainly it sounds like on the zology of high altitude 225 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: flying uh, specifically for the Air Force, and he was 226 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: inventing different devices to measure gas gas pressure for those purposes. Um. 227 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: And this is one of the first times apparently that 228 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: he used himself as a guinea pig uh lily at 229 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: which he would go on to do quite a bit 230 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: later in his career. In fact, I think he had 231 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 1: sort of a uh like an ethos surrounding that right 232 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: that I can't remember who it was, but I read 233 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: that he um. He he took this from another like 234 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: kind of big thinker scientist who basically said, like, if 235 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: you're not willing to experiment on yourself, then you shouldn't 236 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: be willing to experiment on other human beings. Uh. And 237 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: this seems to be the case here where he participated 238 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: in an experiment where he was studying the effects of 239 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: explosive decompression on pilots at high altitudes. Uh. And by 240 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: all accounts that I read, this was something that could 241 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: have killed him, but he went about and did it anyways. 242 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: And this is in the thirties going into the forties, 243 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: all right, so after the war or we're getting into 244 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: the post War War two area, we're getting into the 245 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties at a time uh increasingly defined by Cold 246 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: War paranoia. UH. During this area that literally turns to neuroscience, 247 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: which is a logical next step in this quest for consciousness. Right. 248 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: And he's motivated in a large part by pioneering brain 249 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 1: surgeon Wilder Penfield at this point. UH. And in short, 250 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: what he ends up doing is he applies electronic engineering 251 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: to the monitoring and mapping of the central nervous system, 252 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: again drawing on the best technology available at the time 253 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: to try and crack this nut of consciousness. And what 254 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: I had read this is one of the first stances 255 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: of his father, sorry, instances of his father funding him. 256 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: His father helped him pay for the design of something 257 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: he called the baba Tron, which was a device for 258 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: recording the impulses from within a rabbit's brain and they 259 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: would project these impulses up onto like a television screen 260 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: as waves. UM. So the Babatron included an array of 261 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: sensors that where this is something we're gonna come back 262 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,119 Speaker 1: to over and over again with Lily basically putting electrodes 263 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: on the surface of the brain of different animals and 264 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: or human beings. Uh. And in nineteen fifty one, he 265 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: published a paper that showed how to display these patterns 266 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: in such a way projecting brain electrical activity on a 267 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: television like screen. Uh. And I recently spent some time 268 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: in the hospital. I had a family member and I 269 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: see you, and I thought, wow, like, think of the 270 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: just the standard hospital machinery we have that are like 271 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: measuring and showing us things like oxygen levels and and uh, 272 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: breathing and and and brain activity. You know, Lily was 273 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: one of the pioneers, and that you can thank him 274 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: for that. This is a guy who who really did 275 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: like impact our understanding of medicine and of thought. And 276 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, despite where he went down further in his career, 277 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: he really did have like some contributions. Yeah, down or 278 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: or out or out, Yeah, however you want to look 279 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: at it. Absolutely. From here he moves on to the 280 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: National Institutes of Mental Health or NIM. Uh. And this 281 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: is an area where he begins to get into a 282 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: lot of interesting and and at times kind of creepy work. Yeah. 283 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: And I read an interesting thing that said that one 284 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: of the reasons why he specifically went for this research 285 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: position with NIM was that it gave him access to 286 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: both the National Institute of Neurological Diseases because that would 287 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: give him access to resources about the physical brain. But 288 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: it also gave him access to the National Institute of 289 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: Mental Health, which focused on the mind, and he really 290 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: wanted to combine the two. Uh. And he experimented on 291 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: living brains with all these different techniques he developed. So 292 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: you know, we've got the rabbits, we talked about that, 293 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: but then he moved on to monkeys. His goal was 294 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: to stimulate monkey brains without causing trauma or damage to 295 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: their brain tissue. So he was one of the first 296 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: scientists to locate uh, this is a monkey brain, not 297 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: a human brain, obviously, but he located their pain and 298 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: pleasure centers, and his work there allowed him to map 299 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: their neural networks and to link sensory events, muscle movement, 300 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: and other behaviors related to the activity in their brain. 301 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: This is going to be important later on when we 302 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: get into dolphins. Yeah, and this is my understanding. Some 303 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: it's pretty invasive surgery at this point in experimentation, and 304 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: he spends essentially a decade working on it. Here uh again, 305 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: connecting invasive of vivisections of the cranium and this is 306 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: where things get into some creepier territory. Um. Again, he's 307 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: laser focused on his goal, but he is an employ 308 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: of NIM. He's working in the in the time of 309 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: of nineteen fifties cold war paranoia. It's US versus the Soviets. 310 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: There's they're all these fears of of of mind control, brainwashing, uh, 311 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: all sorts of strange counter espionage techniques. And according to D. 312 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: Graham Burnett's excellent paper A Mind in Water, which is 313 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: published in Ryan Magazine and it's available online, will include 314 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: a link to it on the landing page, says Lily 315 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: later claimed not to care for this sort of thing, 316 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: but in his prime as a government employee, he had 317 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: high level security clearance. J Edgar Hoover knew him by 318 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: name and was actively involved in research into brainwashing or 319 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,479 Speaker 1: reprogramming as it was then called, among the cognizanty sleep 320 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: deprivation and operant controlled of animals with wires implanted in 321 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: the pain centers of their gray matter. Unquote. Wow, so 322 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: this gets back to when we were talking about we 323 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: three on the animal weaponry thing. So yeah, I can 324 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 1: imagine with all the things we learned from that episode 325 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: of like people stuffing bats into bombs and trying to 326 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: figure out ways to use bees to attack people that 327 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: of course they would be looking at ways to try 328 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: to stimulate their brains as well, and there, yeah, the goal. 329 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: He was not just animals but humans. In an unpublished 330 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: paper of Lily's titled Special Considerations of Modified Human Agents 331 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: as Reconnaissance and Intelligence Devices, I really don't have to 332 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 1: go much further, and then I just title, But he 333 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: talked about such things as the quote covert and relatively 334 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: safe implantation of electrodes into the human brain for the 335 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: push button control of the totality of motivation and of consciousness. 336 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: I wonder how much Lily's sort of like beginning work 337 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: set the stage for brain computer interface work, you know 338 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: that's being studied today, because that's obviously like a big 339 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: field of of inquiry right now. Yeah, I mean to 340 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: to whatever extent his his ideas here were actually applicable 341 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: given that the technology of the time, and he's certainly 342 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: foreshadowing where the technology would go. He's certainly dreaming in 343 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: the in the direction that we're that we're still headed. 344 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I was trying to 345 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: figure out what we're doing the research was whether or 346 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: not these were pain free methods. And I believe later 347 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: in his career he definitely wanted to get to a point, right. 348 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: Like I mentioned earlier that you know, his goal was 349 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: not to cause trauma and the monkeys and not to 350 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: damage their brain tissue. But I imagine it wasn't comfortable 351 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: having these electrodes stuck in their brains, right, Yeah. And 352 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: my understanding it also depended on what he was working on. So, um, 353 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: you could use anesthetics on certain animals, but as we'll discuss, 354 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: there are other animals that that simply stop breathing if 355 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: you put them under an anesthetic, right, Yeah, And there's 356 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: always there's a very interesting like, despite his profound respect 357 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: for dolphins later on, there's some weird stuff that goes 358 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: on with the dolphin research as well too, in terms 359 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: of like kind of treating them humanely. Yeah, and uh, 360 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: and and certainly at this point in his career he 361 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: has he's a very unsentimental guy. He's laser focused on 362 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: this consciousness to enigma. Uh, but he's not necessarily he's 363 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: not he's certainly not the sort of hippie mythic figure 364 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: counterculture figure we see later on quite the opposite. This 365 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: is a guy who's on first name basis with Jaguar Hoover. 366 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: He's very much a part of the establishment and kind 367 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: of a scary part of the establishment. Yeah, and he 368 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: is going to do what needs to be done to 369 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: get the results right. So it's during this creepy period 370 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: that literally first learns from an oceanographer colleague that the 371 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: largest brains are found in small tooth whales. Intrigued, he 372 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: sets out to implant electrodes in the brains of captive 373 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: dolphins at Florida's Marine Studios. Now this place still exists 374 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: today under the name Marine Land of Florida. Some of 375 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 1: our listeners have been there and can speak to it. 376 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: But at the time they specialized in B movies. Really 377 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: of particular note, they shot the Creature from the Black 378 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: Lagoon here and Revenge of the Creature from NT WOW. 379 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: So John C. Lily was like peripherally involved with like 380 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: Universal Horror, specifically the Creature from the Black Lagoon. I 381 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: would I think you might have mentioned this before the podcast. 382 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 1: How cool would it be for them to be like 383 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: a Creature of the Black Lagoon remake that like mixes 384 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: in some of the John C. Lily ideas of you know, 385 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: both dolphin human communication, but also isolation tanks and hallucinogenics. Yeah, 386 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: I mean, and in fact, we'll get back to the 387 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: creature from the Black Lagoon in a minute, because the 388 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: connection between Lily and the creature he is even closer 389 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: than you might be thinking right now. Okay, cool, cool, Okay, 390 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: So he he engages in this work, right he's uh, 391 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: he's he's putting the electrodes on the dolphins brains. One 392 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: of the problems here, as I mentioned, is that dolphins 393 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: stop breathing when they're under anesthetic, and this has to 394 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: do with the conscious nature of dolphin respirations that it's 395 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: it's not as as much of a you know, a 396 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: subconscious activity is as it is for us surface dwellers. 397 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: Uh So, it's it's pretty rough work. Dolphins are dying 398 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: during the experiments, but one of them, before it passes, 399 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: makes a series of sounds, and Lily has this really 400 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: this epiphany. He he feels he's listening to the sound 401 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: that this dolphin is making. It sounds as if they're 402 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: attempting to mimic his voice. They're attempting to mimic the 403 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: voice of the other researchers in the room, and and 404 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: and it's just this, this Eureka moment for him. He's 405 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: been searching for for consciousness, searching for for some sort 406 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: of you know, ultimately connection to another mind, and he 407 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: feels as if he has glimpsed it. So this is 408 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: sort of a good segue, I guess then from his 409 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: dolphin or actually this isn't even the really scratching the 410 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: surface of his dolphin research, right, is where he first 411 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: sort of dabbles in it. Yeah, this is where, yeah, 412 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: he dabbles in it. And and the light bulb goes 413 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: off and he realizes, I have to work with these dolphins. 414 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: Everything else I'm gonna I'm just gonna walk away from 415 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: because this, this is where I need to be. And then, 416 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: in order to facilitate this type of study, he develops 417 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: he invents the isolation tank, which most of us know nowadays, 418 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: right because it's a fairly popularized thing. I was first 419 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: familiar with it from Altered States. That was the first 420 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: time I'd ever heard of it. I think I probably 421 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: saw Altered States when I was like nineteen or twenty 422 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 1: or something like that. But just last year, maybe two 423 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: years ago. My wife for my birthday got me um 424 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: a gift card to go visit an isolation tank center 425 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: here in Atlanta. Yeah. I think we've likely been to 426 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: the same place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've done it as well, right, Yeah. 427 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: For those of you who are not familiar with it, 428 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: uh yeah, you can probably find a float a place 429 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: in your your area and you try it out for yourself. 430 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: But essentially it is a chamber, a dark chamber filled 431 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: with very buoyant salt water. You go in there, you 432 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you put on some goggles, maybe you're 433 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: wearing a bathing suit, maybe not, and you're just floating 434 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: there in the silence. Uh. You all your hearing is 435 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: just the sound of the water, the sound of your 436 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: your own heartbeat. Uh. And because you're floating, you don't 437 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,239 Speaker 1: really sense any touch, right. It's which is unusual for us. 438 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: We're always like kind of bound to something by gravity, 439 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: but this allows you to kind of just float there. Um. 440 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: The darkness takes away your eyesight for the most part. 441 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: The one I was in kind of I don't know 442 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: about you, but it had like a little bit of 443 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: a transparency to it, so natural daylight kind of came in. Um. 444 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: And then there was what was the other Oh, they 445 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: gave me earplugs? Did you get ear plugs? I may 446 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: have gotten ear plugs, I can't remember now. I do 447 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: remember seeing lights eventually, because I think I was in darkness. 448 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: And I also have to say that the warmness of 449 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: the water is tends to be calibrated so that it's 450 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: about human body temperature, right, yeah, so that it's in 451 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: a way the barriers of your body are no longer 452 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: as obvious. So it's about isolating the mind. And and 453 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: apparently like the idea for this came out of Lily's 454 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: work at NIM Again, think back to the counter espionage work. 455 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: How do you break down a potential spy? How do 456 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: you get break into their mind and interact with their consciousness? Well, 457 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: what if you were to put a scary latex mask 458 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: over their face so they can't see anything, submerge them 459 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: in this buoyant tank of salt water, and just rob 460 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: them of their senses without actually harming them. So really 461 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: it was a form of psychological torture that was being devised, 462 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: and it was apparently pretty traumatic for some of the 463 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: individuals who tested it out, but of course really tested 464 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: it out as well, he solved the positive potential for 465 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: the kind of inward focus that it allowed. Yeah, I 466 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: mean the basic idea here was he wanted to test 467 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: whether the brain would actually shut down if there was 468 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: no stimuli received. Right. But yeah, it's really interesting. Again, 469 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: so like the figure that he becomes, this kind of 470 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: hippie psychedelic grew figure. You trace back his history and 471 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 1: it's like ultimately connected to this kind of movement of 472 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: torture and interrogation, right, I mean, like people, I don't 473 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: know that they're necessarily using isolation tanks, but sensory deprivation 474 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: is very much a thing that we do nowadays, we 475 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: the United States military and government when we're trying to 476 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: get information out of, you know, somebody that that might 477 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: have something that's gonna you know, potentially affect a citizen 478 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: or or an operation overseas. Oh yeah, or even just 479 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: dishing out essentially punishment on individu rules that are in 480 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: soliditary confinement. Yeah. And it's this is fascinating to me too, because, um, 481 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: this is right around it's a little bit earlier, but 482 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: around the same time that Michelle Fucot is really starting 483 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: to look into sort of the philosophy of discipline and punishment. 484 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: And I'm really curious if these two guys knew about 485 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: each other, uh, and if they even or if they 486 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: interacted to you know. Yeah, indeed, so Lily. Yeah, it 487 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: really gets into the idea of the isolation tank. And 488 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: this is this is kind of happening in the background 489 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: to the dolphin stuff. We we just mentioned the beginnings 490 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: of the dolphin stuff. Um, I'm gonna actually just read 491 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: uh one quote from him and have you read another one, 492 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: because I think Lily really captures what he saw in 493 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: the tank, uh, what he saw in the tank's potential 494 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: for the human mind. He said, all the average person 495 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: has to do is get into the tank in the 496 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: darkness and silence and float around until he realizes he 497 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: is programming everything that is happening in side his head. 498 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: You are free of the physical world at that point, 499 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: and anything can happen inside your head because everything is 500 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: governed by the laws of thought rather than the laws 501 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: of the external world. So you can go to the 502 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: limits of your conceptions. And so this is a good 503 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 1: moment I think for us to sort of back up 504 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: for the listener. For you out there listening, if you've 505 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: never done this, and you've never seen it depicted or 506 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: read about it. Um. People oftentimes report that during their 507 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: experience in these tanks, they see colorful images, they have 508 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: memories flashed by, they kind of have like waking dreams. Uh. 509 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: And there's even there's an some people report an experience 510 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: of levels of consciousness where they feel they're in contact 511 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: with other intelligent being sort of outside of them. Right. Yeah, 512 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: I mean it's essentially a really meditative space. So I 513 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: only floated once. I did not get that kind of experience. 514 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: I understand that one needs to do it many times 515 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: to get used to it. But but I have had 516 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: experiences in meditation where I have I have seen things 517 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: and felt things that that line up to a certain 518 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: extent with this kind of you know, subjective experience. Yeah, 519 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: I mean it's possible too. So this is another instance 520 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: that I UM where the like, the reporting seems to 521 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: be a little bit varied for me. I read that 522 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: it's possible that he actually started dabbling in this before 523 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: any of the dolphin research. Maybe it was more official 524 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: later on. Yeah, No, I believe you're right on that. Okay, 525 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 1: because he apparently considered dolphins and other water mammals because 526 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: of the idea of consciousness that existed in the state 527 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: of flotation. Uh, and it somehow brought that up. But 528 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: so here's another thing. We were talking about, how you 529 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: bring the temperature to about the same as the body, 530 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: the body's temperature. Apparently, at one point, while Lily was 531 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: experimenting on himself, he's trying to bring the temperature to 532 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: the right thing, and he fell into a coma. That 533 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: was another thing that I read. And I mean, it 534 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: must not have been that long or serious, but I 535 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: don't but don't quite know how that would happen, even 536 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 1: especially given my experience in an isolation tank. But this 537 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: was in one of the papers I read. He also speculated, 538 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: now this is the beginning of the John C. Lily 539 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: everybody came to know and love that in a tank, 540 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: a person, meaning a man, could orgasm without ejaculating. So 541 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: another thing that comes out of this, outside of his 542 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: speculations on orgasms and ejaculation, is uh, that he also 543 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: figured out that even in the tank, that the pure 544 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: mental state that he was looking to achieve wasn't necessarily 545 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: possible because it even eliminating all sensory stimulation, just that 546 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: kind of isolation in the tank. Wasn't achieving that? Um, 547 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: this is probably a good opportunity for me to read 548 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: that second quote you mentioned. So this is from Lily 549 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: wrote lots of books on his own outside of his 550 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: work with the government, and that weren't published really by 551 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: I wouldn't call them peer reviewed in any sense, right, 552 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: And this is one of them. I believe it's called 553 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: I love this title Tanks for the Memories flotation tank talks. Yeah, 554 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: and this is from this is definitely later after Yeah, 555 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 1: So okay. He says at the highest level of satory 556 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: from which people return, the point of consciousness becomes a 557 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: surface or solid which extends throughout the whole known universe. 558 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: This used to be called fusion with the universal mind 559 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: or God. In more modern terms, you have done a 560 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: mathematical transformation in which your center of consciousness has ceased 561 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: to be a traveling point and has become a surface 562 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: or solid of consciousness. It was in this state that 563 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: I experienced myself as melded and intertwined with hundreds of 564 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: billions of other beings in a thin sheet of consciousness 565 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: that was distributed around the galaxy a membrane. Now this 566 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: definitely touches on some of his wackier theories that we're 567 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: going to get into later. Yeah, it touches on some more, Yeah, 568 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: the mystical ideas that he explores in his work. I 569 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: do have to say, though, with ultimately what he's talking 570 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: about here, and ultimately with with the experience of love 571 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: of meditation, but also with the flow tank, a lot 572 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: of what's happening is the shutdown of what's called the 573 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: default mode network. Actually we understand it more now is 574 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: a series of of of interconnected resting state networks involved 575 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: in vision, hearing, movement, attention, and memory. But you can 576 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: think of it as just that that knee voice what 577 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: Ecartole calls the egoic mind, this sort of knee centered 578 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: narrative that's always running in the background of our head, 579 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: whether we are conscious of it or not, you know, 580 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: worrying about the past, worrying about the future. And if 581 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: you can shut that off, then you're in this point 582 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: of clarity and now illness, and you can actually explore 583 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: thoughts about yourself and the world around you in ways 584 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: that you're often crippled from. Yeah, I mean, this is 585 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: certainly like what I try to get out of you 586 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: know with yoga and meditation in some situations, but but 587 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: also I gotta say, after doing the isolation tank thing, 588 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: I want one of those in my home. And maybe 589 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: maybe if you did it too much, it would it 590 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: would sort of defeat the purpose for achieving that sort 591 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: of lack of self right of thinking about everything else 592 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: around you. I don't know, I've never heard anyone say 593 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: they do it too much. There, They're always people are 594 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: really into it. Or if I could just like after 595 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: every day coming home, just hop into one of those 596 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: for thirty minutes, that would be great. I read an 597 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: account about there was a woman in the nineteen eighties 598 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: who was apparently like a I don't know that I 599 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: would call her a student of Lilies, but she was 600 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: somebody who followed his work closely. She was one of 601 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: the first people to open like a business around isolation tanks, 602 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: and she had one in her home on the twenty 603 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: floor of a Manhattan skyscraper, and she I think at 604 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: the time she charged people like twenty five dollars per hour. 605 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: And one of her main clients was a television executive 606 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: who would he said something along the lines of, how 607 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: like after every light home back to Manhattan, after like 608 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: you know, doing a bunch of television sales type stuff, 609 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: he would before even going home, go to her place 610 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: and hop into one of these isolation tanks. It's kind 611 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: of fascinating that like a guy like that saw the 612 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: value and just kind of slowing everything down. Yeah, I 613 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,959 Speaker 1: mean it leaves a bit leads of busy life, so 614 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: it would make sense. Alright, So let's at this point 615 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna return back to dolphins. I feel like we 616 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,479 Speaker 1: we've we've set everything up to to continue Lily's journey. 617 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: We're going to around nineteen Uh. This is when Lily 618 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: presents a paper before the American Psychiatric Association and he 619 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: makes some rather dramatic claims about the intelligence and the 620 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,479 Speaker 1: linguistic abilities of the bottlenose dolphins specifically. Now that the 621 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: evidence that he cites as a parent is arguably scant 622 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: and and anecdotal, but it resonated pretty strongly, and it 623 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: resonated with the right people. So soon you had prestigious 624 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: federal research awards rolling in, and he uses the funds 625 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: to build a dedicated dolphin laboratory on St. Thomas in 626 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: the US Virgin Islands. The Communication Research Institute or c R. I. Yeah, 627 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: And the most fascinating thing that you added to these 628 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: notes is that at its height, this institute, under Lily's guidance, 629 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: was receiving half a million dollars a year in grant money. 630 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: It exploded crazy, especially when you consider what half a 631 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: million dollars was worth back then. That's nuts, Uh, that 632 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: that he was getting that much support. Uh. And it 633 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: sounds like during this time he I guess he had 634 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: a home in Miami. Sounded like he'd become fairly acclimated 635 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: to Florida and liked it a lot there. But he 636 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: had the lab in St. Thomas. Uh. And there was 637 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: this really interesting nineteen sixty Time magazine piece that I 638 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: was able to pull and it's this kind of fascinating 639 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: like feature piece on on him, and they described him 640 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: as a deep chested, sun tanned neurophysiologist. I like that. That. 641 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: That must be where the idea for the George C. 642 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: Scott character and the dolphin came from. But at the 643 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: time that they came to visit him Time Magazine, that 644 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: is uh, he was working on an elaborate system of 645 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: jetties and pools at the center. The idea was that 646 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: he was trying to learn about dolphins sonar for the Navy. 647 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: They were paying for the expenses of this construction. Uh. 648 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: And the idea was that they they felt that dolphins 649 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: sonar was better than their own capabilities at the time, 650 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: so they wanted to figure out a way to reverse 651 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: engineer and mimic it. Yes, the Navy was definitely one 652 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: of the interested party that was won over by his 653 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: his arguments for dolphin intelligence and dolphin abilities. Well, I mean, 654 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: he had some some convincing evidence. Like you said, it 655 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: wasn't all like uh perfect, but when he he must 656 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: have been a very charismatic guy, I'm imagining, because when 657 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: he gives these presentations, people just fall head over heels 658 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: for it. I mean, you hear it in his voice, 659 00:35:58,239 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: and you will actually hear his voice at the end 660 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: of this podcast. Like. One of the things that I 661 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: think he convinced the Navy with was by dissecting dolphin brains. Uh. 662 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: You know, we we talked about this earlier. They're bigger 663 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: than human brains obviously, but they also have as complicated 664 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: a cerebral cortex. Uh. And so this is when he 665 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: starts planting electrodes in the dolphin brains. Kind of along 666 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: the same lines of what we were talking about with 667 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 1: the monkeys earlier, trying to stimulate their pleasure centers, specifically 668 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: with electricity. And this is the weirdest, Like this grossed 669 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: me out. This quote from the Time magazine article. He said, 670 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: when he first stimulated their pleasure centers with electrodes, the 671 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: muscles around their blow hole smiled. That is the weirdest, Like, 672 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: I don't know why. It just squeaks me out, Like 673 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: the idea of a little smile forming around and the 674 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: but the like dolphins got like its head peel, you know, 675 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: it's scalp peeled back with all these electrodes wired into it. 676 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: Whatever the case, the dolphins loved it. In fact, there 677 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: was an apparatus that he used to sort of train 678 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: them with it. They could give themselves the electrical jolt, 679 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: and they did it so much that they became addicted 680 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: to it. Uh. And this is this is so this 681 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: is a different story from what I um you mentioned earlier. 682 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: I In this nineteen piece, they say this is where 683 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: he first encountered the dolphins mimicking human speech. He says 684 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: that apparently, and maybe he's just you know, b sing 685 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: them during an interview or something like that. But he 686 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: says an apparatus broke down one day at the St. 687 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: Thomas laboratory and he had left a tape recorder running 688 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,399 Speaker 1: and he heard a Donald Duck like voice on tape 689 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: recorder later on that was imitating him saying the words 690 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: three hundred and twenty three over and over again. And 691 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: then he also said that the dolphins imitated the buzz 692 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: of a transformer and the rattle of a movie camera 693 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: that we're in, I'm assuming in the same laboratory space. Yeah, 694 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: So there's this feeling that he's getting here that not 695 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: only is he reaching out to them to make communication, 696 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: but they are reaching out to us, and he has 697 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:03,919 Speaker 1: to meet them in the middle. He has to find 698 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: a way to make this connection. Uh. And towards that end, 699 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: he starts like documenting what he thinks is dolphin language. 700 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: And now, you know, I think that it's it's fairly 701 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: well documented at this point that we know that there 702 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: is such a thing. Uh. He learned one phrase in 703 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: dolphin language that he reported back to Time in nineteen 704 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: sixty and it was what he called their May Day 705 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: distress call, and he describes it as sounding like a 706 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: wolf whistling, which I don't. I don't know that that's 707 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: necessarily a description that immediately calls a sound to my mind. 708 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: But maybe Lily was encountering more wolves than I do 709 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: on a daily basis. But he specifically noted that this 710 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: happened when he put a paralyzed dolphin in a pool. 711 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: So one thing I want to stop and ask is 712 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: why would you do that? He puts this paralyzed dolphin 713 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: in the pool, right, the dolphin sinks to the bottom 714 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: and immediately starts crying out with this may day distress call. Well, 715 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: Lily says, the other dolphins all came to its rescue 716 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: and pushed it back to the surface so that it 717 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: could continue breathing. So maybe he speculated that that was 718 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: going to happen, and this was just kind of a 719 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: test of their I guess, like bond together. But it 720 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: just again I was like wow, Like, uh, despite his 721 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: fascination and love for these animals, he's willing to like 722 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: let one potentially drown. Yeah, And I mean part of this, 723 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: I think is that he's he's certainly working, you know, 724 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: within the scientific atmosphere of the day and the attitude 725 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: towards uh test animals of the day, and you can 726 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: probably chalk a bit of it up to his uh, 727 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, his his laser focused vision, which we certainly 728 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 1: saw during his NYM days and continues to a certain 729 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 1: extent with the dolphins. It sounds from from the research 730 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: I was reading that his his work with the dolphins 731 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 1: definitely got less invasive. He got further and further away 732 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: from the sort of the the harder stuff of the 733 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: NYM days. But but he was still at times sort 734 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: of accused of having an occasional cavalier attitude towards the 735 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: test dolphins. Yeah. I think though that that sort of 736 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: phases out over time, you know. Um. But not a 737 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: year later after this time thing, that's when he published 738 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: his like big dolphin book, right yes, nineteen one Man 739 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: and Dolphin Adventures of a New Scientific Frontier. And this 740 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: book just really becomes a big deal. Not only researchers, 741 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: not only scientists and academics, but just the general public 742 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: are eating this book up. And I'm just gonna read 743 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: you a quick sample from so you can get just 744 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: an idea of some of the things he's talking about 745 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 1: in this book. He's documenting his work with dolphins thus 746 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: far but he's also talking about where he thinks this 747 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: work can take us. He said, quote, eventually it may 748 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: be possible for humans to speak with another species. I 749 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: have come to this conclusion after careful consideration of evidence 750 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: game through my research experiments with dolphins. If new scientific 751 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,720 Speaker 1: developments are to be made in this direction, however, certain 752 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: changes in our basic orientation, orientation, and philosophy will be necessary. 753 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: So he's talking about just a game changing development here. 754 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 1: He's talking about He discusses us reaching the point where 755 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: we we teach dolphins to speak English, to speak English, 756 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,439 Speaker 1: and to even have to create a chair for them 757 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: on the United Nations. So you know this, he's talking 758 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: about finding an alien intelligence here on our planet and 759 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: uh and and communing with them, um, communicating with them 760 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: and actually inviting them into our rule of the world. 761 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: And he's clearly going into his own soul searching too. 762 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: If we sort of like compare this with the history 763 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: of his life, you know, I mean, I think he 764 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: he had like a very personal reason for feeling so 765 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: strongly about this, given the way that he had experimented 766 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: on these animals previously. He goes from that to thinking 767 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: that they should be part of the United Nations. Uh. 768 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: And and by the sixties he's this is when he's 769 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: publishing academic papers glore showing that dolphins can mimic all 770 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:04,160 Speaker 1: kinds of human speech pattern by clicking, squeaking, and rasping. Uh. 771 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: And he even talked, there's this British I got the 772 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: impression from the article I read that this British anthropologist 773 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: was a big deal at the time. His name is 774 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: Gregory Bateson and the US Navy and and him and 775 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 1: Lily were all kind of influenced by the research that 776 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,240 Speaker 1: was going on at the center. And Lily pitched human 777 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: dolphin communication to NASA at the time, saying that if 778 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: they were going to encounter aliens, this is the perfect 779 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 1: way for them to sort of come up with a 780 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 1: model of communications standards with an alien intelligence. Yeah to 781 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: And it makes sense, right if you're attempting to communicate 782 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: with a as a different yet equal form of consciousness, 783 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: and this could conceivably be an experiment in that. And 784 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: you can see now where Day of the Dolphin came from. 785 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what year that came out. I want 786 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: to say it was early seventies maybe, but uh, if 787 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: you've never seen the movie before it involves the George C. 788 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,360 Speaker 1: Scott as John C. Lily. They both had season the 789 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: middle character teaching dolphins to speak English. They can speak English, 790 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: and I believe it's on behalf of the U. S Government. Uh. 791 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: And you know they say things like fall loves paw 792 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 1: right like he's paw and I think he names them 793 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: all things that rhyme with paw because it's easier for 794 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: them to pronounce or whatever. It's kind of a silly movie, 795 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: but it's also a little bit touching in a way. So, yeah, 796 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: the book is a huge success in inspired of these movies. 797 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: That's the idea just spells like spreads like wildfire. And 798 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: this was a period again, the fifties and sixties, during 799 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,839 Speaker 1: which fascination with the underwater world is really taking off. 800 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: This is the time of you know, scuba is really 801 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: really exploding, Jacques Cousteaux is is making a big name 802 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: for himself. It's the time of Sea Hunt. And in 803 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, of course, you see the television show Flipper. Yeah, 804 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: a mainstream television show about an intelligent dolphin that communicates 805 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: with humans. Yeah, and this is where we come back 806 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,280 Speaker 1: to our connections to the creature from the Black Lagoon. 807 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,839 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, hit me with it. Yeah, so I kind 808 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: of had forgotten this, but that TV series Flipper was 809 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: based on a nineteen sixty three film of the same name, 810 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: a film co created by Ricou Browning. Okay, Riccou Browning 811 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: worked at Marine Studios, which we mentioned earlier, the place 812 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: where where Lily initially went down to study dolphins. And uh, 813 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 1: Browning actually portrayed the creature from the Black Lagoon in 814 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: the first two films. So Lily is actually the guy 815 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: wearing the rubber suit. Yeah, he was a guy in 816 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: the rubber suits in the first two Creature films. And uh, 817 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: and again he co created Flipper, and Lily is actually 818 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: thanked in the credits to the nine film Flipper. So 819 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 1: that's nuts. Wow. Okay, well yeah, and it it also 820 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: makes me think of God. The film version of twenty 821 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: Leagues Into the Sea was made around that time to 822 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 1: probably right, Um, I don't know the specific date on that, 823 00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: but yeah, there is that fascination with sort of under 824 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: the adventure. Yeah, it's opening up to us in ways 825 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,400 Speaker 1: that it just had not been previously available, and so 826 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: we're we're fascinated with this new world down there, and 827 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: then to to to also have this potential revelation laid 828 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: on our plate that there is an intelligence down there, 829 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 1: uh more or less on par with our own. I 830 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: wonder what John C. Lily thought of the abyss. I 831 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: don't know, that would have been interesting. Huh. Yeah, that's 832 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: probably in a way. That's a very Lily movie, isn't it. 833 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: So studies at the center continue again. Lily's approach gradually 834 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: moves away from the sort of creepy world of nim 835 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,280 Speaker 1: is nim work and into less invasive techniques. He abandons 836 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,280 Speaker 1: the use of electrodes and instead attempts to essentially meld 837 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: minds with the dolphins to understand the shape of their consciousness. Um. 838 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 1: He turns increasingly to the flotation tank and attempt to 839 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: achieve this. He hypes in hydrophone recordings of their sounds, 840 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 1: and eventually too he starts using LSD. And this is 841 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,360 Speaker 1: where it's all coming together. Right. They seem like very 842 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: disparate things when you say dolphins, isolation tanks, and LSD, 843 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: But he's combining all of these things together. Yeah, and 844 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: at the time it's legal, He's able to get it 845 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 1: through his his connections his clearance. He's getting it totally 846 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: on the board and uh. In beginning of nineteen sixty four, 847 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: he also is injecting it into the dolphins to see 848 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: what kind of effect it will. It will. Oh, I 849 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 1: didn't know that really, And this was pretty standard for 850 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,080 Speaker 1: the time. This was a time when there were a 851 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: lot of LSD experiments going on, and we were putting 852 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 1: LSD into the bodies of various animals and tests I 853 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: used to see how they responded. Uh, And apparently they 854 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 1: did not really respond to LSD, which he was kind 855 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: of disappointed with, but he kept taking it. He kept 856 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,719 Speaker 1: going in. Yeah, see if he could he could understand 857 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,080 Speaker 1: their mind. Um. So one of the things that I 858 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 1: read when researching him, and I hadn't really realized this. 859 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,840 Speaker 1: Do you do you remember a video game called Echo 860 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 1: the Dolphin? Yeah, I do. I vaguely remember it. I 861 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 1: didn't play it. I talked to Joe about it, our 862 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 1: co host, and he did play it. Uh. And apparently 863 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: the whole game was centered around Lily, his research and 864 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: his sort of philosophy. Yeah, I had no idea. It 865 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,279 Speaker 1: apparently gets really psychedelic as it continues. I only ever 866 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: like played like the first level. So I have a 867 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: very service level understanding of eco to think it's like 868 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: something Joe said. It was something to the effect that 869 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,879 Speaker 1: like there's even like an alien sort of overmind that 870 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,680 Speaker 1: causes the events on Earth that make echo the dolphin 871 00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:30,280 Speaker 1: have to try to, you know, go through this gamut 872 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: of psychedelic levels and pervious save the world. That's cool. Yeah, 873 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: So it's c r I. We continue to see him 874 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 1: doing what he's always done. He's using the best technology, 875 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: various methodologies, and an attempt to achieve his his goal here. So, 876 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,760 Speaker 1: for instance, he uses state of the art code breaking 877 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,840 Speaker 1: computers and an attempt to crack the code of dolphin 878 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: vocalization patterns and uh as. As Bruce Clark points out 879 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,920 Speaker 1: in his Communication plus one paper from two thousand and fourteen, 880 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: John Lily, The Mind of the Dolphin and Communication out 881 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,840 Speaker 1: of Bounds. He says, Lily mobilize the best available tools 882 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: a cutting edge array of cybernetic concepts. In pursuit of 883 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:16,360 Speaker 1: his his breakthrough communication with dolphins. He employed quote information theory, 884 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 1: bound up with first order cybernetics, and operated with the 885 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:25,399 Speaker 1: heuristic computational metaphors alongside the actual computers of his era. 886 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 1: So that actually speaks to my my question from earlier 887 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: about brain computer interfaces. It sounds like he did have 888 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,439 Speaker 1: quite a bit of influence on the BC. I yeah, 889 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: it's it sounds like he did. Yeah, he was, you know, 890 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: basically any area he applied himself to, he managed to 891 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 1: influence that discipline. Uh, sometimes in a positive direction, sometimes 892 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 1: in a negative direction as well, as we discussed. But 893 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: but in all of this too, we're getting into this 894 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: problem of projection, right. Oh yeah, you mean like actual 895 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,359 Speaker 1: vocal projection. No, no, no, actually like projecting, uh well, 896 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,359 Speaker 1: and maybe to a certain extent, but all so one, 897 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 1: you know, projecting your consciousness on to another creature, okay, 898 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: okay um. As Plart points out in his paper, projection 899 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,280 Speaker 1: short circuits a proper understanding of what others are thinking 900 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,360 Speaker 1: or meaning to convey when they make a communic communicative offer, 901 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,920 Speaker 1: so that in projection goes. It's a problem when we 902 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 1: just try and communicate with each other, Like I'm not 903 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,520 Speaker 1: just community, I'm not communicating solely with you. I'm communicating 904 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: with a version of you I have in my mind 905 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,360 Speaker 1: my expectations of you, and then the kind of feedback 906 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,399 Speaker 1: you provide as well. It's the inherent problem of human communication. 907 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 1: Yet and and through a series of feedback and feed forward, 908 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,239 Speaker 1: we try to clear up like various psychological noise that 909 00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: gets in the middle there of our understanding of what 910 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,319 Speaker 1: one another are saying. But yeah, it's it's kind of 911 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,759 Speaker 1: like the human dilemma, right, is that, like we're we're 912 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,759 Speaker 1: never going to fully be able to at least, you know, 913 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,280 Speaker 1: with just our voices, uh, communicate what's going on inside 914 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: our head to one another. Yeah, really really wanted to 915 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,360 Speaker 1: get past that. Yeah. And but one of the problems, 916 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 1: of course, is that he's, despite his scientific background and 917 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 1: all of the vigoris throwing into this, he seems to 918 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,440 Speaker 1: always be working with the certainty that communication can truly 919 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 1: be established, and that not only is he reaching out, 920 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 1: but they're reaching out to us. He said, to quote, 921 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,879 Speaker 1: we must keep the working hypothesis in mind that they 922 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,959 Speaker 1: are highly intelligent and are just as interested in communicating 923 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,520 Speaker 1: with us as we are with them. So you know, 924 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,239 Speaker 1: that's a potential stumbling block to your your efforts here, 925 00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,760 Speaker 1: because you already have it firmly established in your mind 926 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: that this can be done, that this connection is there 927 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 1: to be made. I mean and Again, the intelligence of 928 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,719 Speaker 1: dolphins isn't in doubt, but to work with that kind 929 00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,520 Speaker 1: of certainty, uh, with with the kind of certainty that 930 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,680 Speaker 1: they reflect our desire to communicate as well, that's problematic. Yeah, 931 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 1: And certainly I can imagine where that is where he 932 00:50:54,600 --> 00:51:00,279 Speaker 1: starts to have stumbling blocks with funders like UH, Navy 933 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,799 Speaker 1: for instance, in the Air Force or just any like 934 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:07,200 Speaker 1: even NYM. Right, Like, when you start postulating that your 935 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:12,399 Speaker 1: test subjects are on an equal playing field with humanity 936 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,840 Speaker 1: and should be treated as such, that's going to be 937 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,600 Speaker 1: immediately problematic for them, right because it's outside of their 938 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: world understanding, but it also doesn't fit their agenda. Yeah. 939 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 1: And and word of these experiments and some of his 940 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,760 Speaker 1: methods and ideas they're leaking out. He has some researchers 941 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,360 Speaker 1: that are leaving him and working exclusively for the Navy, uh, 942 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:35,800 Speaker 1: perhaps whispering about his his excessive use of the isolation tank. 943 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 1: Maybe perhaps they even know something about the l s D. 944 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:44,000 Speaker 1: And they're definitely talking about the flooded dolphin cohabitation apartment 945 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,880 Speaker 1: that becomes a major project towards the end of c R. 946 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 1: I actually I don't know about this particularly, but I 947 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 1: know that he pitched an idea that basically there needed 948 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,880 Speaker 1: to be some kind of living space that humans and 949 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,719 Speaker 1: dolphins could cod this within to communicate. Is this his 950 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:04,279 Speaker 1: attempt at that? Yeah, it's I mean, And a lot 951 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,520 Speaker 1: of credit has to go to uh scientists. Margaret how 952 00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,279 Speaker 1: love It, who was actually the woman who lived with 953 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,719 Speaker 1: the dolphins, and she she later wrote a book. There 954 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,719 Speaker 1: were a number of articles that came out about her experience. 955 00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,480 Speaker 1: There's a great Guardian article actually titled The Dolphin Who 956 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:23,680 Speaker 1: Loved Me. And she comes up to the Lily with 957 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,840 Speaker 1: the idea like she's already researching dolphins, so she's drawn 958 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,680 Speaker 1: to his activities here. And according to her in the 959 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,120 Speaker 1: Guardian piece, she says, maybe it was because I was 960 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: living so close to the lab. It just seems so simple. 961 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,600 Speaker 1: Why let the water get in the way. So I 962 00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,799 Speaker 1: said to John Lily, I want to plaster everything and 963 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,440 Speaker 1: fill this place with water. I want to live here. Huh. 964 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:46,880 Speaker 1: So see what she had a scuba suit on or 965 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:50,360 Speaker 1: was it just it just was a shallow enough that 966 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,000 Speaker 1: she could wait around And basically they waterproofed this whole 967 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,600 Speaker 1: living area. They made like a floodable apartment so that 968 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,840 Speaker 1: she could live there with the dolphin four months of 969 00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:03,719 Speaker 1: eventual eventually, I think they talked about it being a 970 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,719 Speaker 1: three month period, but it ended up being a six 971 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,880 Speaker 1: month period where she was living with this dolphin, handpicked 972 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,280 Speaker 1: dolphin named Peter Uh in an attempt to teach him English. 973 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,160 Speaker 1: She was going to teach him to speak English. And 974 00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,440 Speaker 1: the idea here and Lily you know, bought into two 975 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,239 Speaker 1: was that she would be there just constantly as this 976 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,000 Speaker 1: kind of mother figure, that they would have this chance 977 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,280 Speaker 1: to to bond in a in a way that human 978 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,359 Speaker 1: and dolphin had not previously. And I'm assuming that like 979 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: she must have approached this like linguistic effort, I guess, 980 00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,279 Speaker 1: like using the same basis for which we teach young 981 00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 1: humans language. Right, Yeah, that's my understanding very much. It 982 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,919 Speaker 1: was like an adult human attempting to teach a child 983 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:50,400 Speaker 1: human how to speak UM, with the some added complications 984 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 1: um that end up being important later on in that 985 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,360 Speaker 1: they helped us to scandalize the work here. But dolphins 986 00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,919 Speaker 1: are pretty can be pretty sexual creatures. So yeah, I've 987 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,880 Speaker 1: heard the story. Yeah, this is probably where a lot 988 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,719 Speaker 1: of people are familiar with the story, because she would 989 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:12,080 Speaker 1: occasionally have to help relieve, help dispense Peter of his 990 00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,360 Speaker 1: sexual urges, let's say, in order to keep the work going. 991 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,160 Speaker 1: And that's she says, that's the way she approached approaching 992 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,960 Speaker 1: and not from a sexual uh you know, vantage point, 993 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: but it was this is a part of how Peter 994 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,359 Speaker 1: behaves as a dolphin, and we need to just sort 995 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:26,640 Speaker 1: of get that out of the way so we can 996 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 1: continue working on language. Okay, well, yeah, I could see 997 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,440 Speaker 1: what that would be quite scandalous. It's one thing to 998 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,719 Speaker 1: pose it that a dolphin is on a sort of 999 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:42,040 Speaker 1: uh equal identity status, individual individualistic status with a human being. 1000 00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,640 Speaker 1: It's another thing to start engaging with them what people 1001 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,440 Speaker 1: would consider bestiality. Yeah, he did get into a weird 1002 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,879 Speaker 1: area here. We have to sort of explain yourself out 1003 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,239 Speaker 1: of that, or attempt to explain yourself out of that 1004 00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,440 Speaker 1: to your your backers or By nineteen seventy five, actually 1005 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,839 Speaker 1: Hustler magazine comes out with an article about it, and 1006 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 1: they didn't help. Oh yeah, they completely scandalized love It 1007 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:07,680 Speaker 1: and It and the experiment. They had some sort of 1008 00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 1: a provocative illustration and just made it sound like like 1009 00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,000 Speaker 1: love It and Lily were just engaged in a you know, 1010 00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:18,719 Speaker 1: a pan species free for all. There something which criticisms 1011 00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,240 Speaker 1: of this experiment aside. You know, clearly wasn't the point 1012 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 1: they were. They were trying to teach this creature to 1013 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,799 Speaker 1: speak English. They were trying to to bridge this gap 1014 00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,319 Speaker 1: between the species and it. But it did get into 1015 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,759 Speaker 1: some pretty weird areas. This sounds like another like we 1016 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,920 Speaker 1: should add this to our our little document of ideas. 1017 00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:36,920 Speaker 1: This sounds like a great thing that we should cover 1018 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,640 Speaker 1: for a future episode. Is like how much animal sexuality 1019 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:45,800 Speaker 1: gets in the way of human animal experimentation. Uh, and 1020 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,280 Speaker 1: and like this can't be the first time or only 1021 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,560 Speaker 1: time that's happened, yeah, or the last. So by autumn 1022 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,640 Speaker 1: of nineteen six, Lily is increasingly more interested in LSD 1023 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:01,000 Speaker 1: research than the ongoing dolphin research. Uh. You know, you 1024 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,040 Speaker 1: could say that he's probably spent more time in the 1025 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:04,880 Speaker 1: tank with the l s D. The l s D 1026 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,960 Speaker 1: becomes the thing that is holding his interest and seems 1027 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,840 Speaker 1: to be the next logical place for his interest and 1028 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,760 Speaker 1: consciousness to really focus and to keep it in perspective. 1029 00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,680 Speaker 1: He's he's kind of getting up to sort of sort 1030 00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,359 Speaker 1: of retirement age at this point, I would imagine, right, Yeah, 1031 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:21,160 Speaker 1: I mean I should say so. And uh. And so 1032 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,960 Speaker 1: it's at this point, just as six months of cohabitation 1033 00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,719 Speaker 1: with Peter coming to an end, funding drives up at 1034 00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 1: cr AT c r I and its closure is announced. Um, 1035 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:31,840 Speaker 1: and they didn't even have a peer re viewed paper 1036 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,000 Speaker 1: out yet. Again, this comes up on the back of 1037 00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,960 Speaker 1: rumors that are spreading about the experiments c r I. 1038 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,400 Speaker 1: Apparently a visiting board of grant examiners also came and 1039 00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,040 Speaker 1: ended up giving just a scathing review of the operation. 1040 00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,239 Speaker 1: And and Lily charges that the Navy researchers effectively sabotaged 1041 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,080 Speaker 1: him and all of this, and you know, maybe they did. Yeah, 1042 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:52,920 Speaker 1: And there's that sort of like this is a question 1043 00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,160 Speaker 1: that I had along. Like basically the whole journey for 1044 00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,520 Speaker 1: Lily is like where's the money coming from? Right, Like, 1045 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,320 Speaker 1: he obviously has that went where he's working very closely 1046 00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,239 Speaker 1: with the government in the military, and then he gets 1047 00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,120 Speaker 1: into this phase where they're co funding stuff, but he's 1048 00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:12,239 Speaker 1: also got private resources, possibly even from his family. But yeah, 1049 00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,920 Speaker 1: I can imagine that if they're like coming by to 1050 00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,560 Speaker 1: take a tour or something like that, they're probably a 1051 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,360 Speaker 1: little bit horrified. Well, it seems to be one of 1052 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,320 Speaker 1: those cases where the establishment, if you will, We're certainly 1053 00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:29,000 Speaker 1: find funding Lily as long as his obsessions matched up 1054 00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,000 Speaker 1: with with with their goals and with their interests. But 1055 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:36,800 Speaker 1: is his obsession uh drifted out of sync with theirs 1056 00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 1: they stepped away from him. Well, it's fascinating, but it 1057 00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,560 Speaker 1: gets back to what we talked about in the Animals 1058 00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,280 Speaker 1: as Weapons episode, right, like nine times out of ten, 1059 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,479 Speaker 1: that's where the money comes for this kind of stuff. Yeah, 1060 00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,200 Speaker 1: so c R I is just completely taken apart. The 1061 00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,919 Speaker 1: dolphins are most of the dolphins are apparently released, though 1062 00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:00,200 Speaker 1: Peter apparently unfortunately dies in captivity later on. Well really 1063 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:04,960 Speaker 1: told love It that Peter died via suicide. That tests 1064 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:09,000 Speaker 1: dolphins have to consciously breathe, that if a dolphin is 1065 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,560 Speaker 1: is significantly upset, it may just simply shut down and 1066 00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,640 Speaker 1: stop breathing. And that is allegedly what happened, and that 1067 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,120 Speaker 1: it was upset by the suffering of its bond. Would 1068 00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:23,040 Speaker 1: love It perhaps that's why That's what Love it. That's 1069 00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,240 Speaker 1: what love It says in in in her book and 1070 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,360 Speaker 1: in the interviews. Yeah, see so this is a little 1071 00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,280 Speaker 1: bit different from what I had read. And this is 1072 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:34,000 Speaker 1: by Lily's own account, later on, he sort of defiantly 1073 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,120 Speaker 1: goes on later on to say, like he in the 1074 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,800 Speaker 1: face of the Navy and everybody else, he purposely let 1075 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,840 Speaker 1: all the dolphins go. Uh. And he even said to 1076 00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,920 Speaker 1: the point he said, well, they were finished reprogramming me. 1077 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,040 Speaker 1: So he you know, obviously like went to the uh 1078 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 1: far into the metaphor with the dolphins were performing the 1079 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,880 Speaker 1: experiments on him. He wasn't experimenting on them, and that 1080 00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:03,040 Speaker 1: they chose to let him, Yes, indeed, and uh, you know, 1081 00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:07,320 Speaker 1: at this point where we really reached the point where uh, 1082 00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,120 Speaker 1: Lily begins to fall out of favor with a lot 1083 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,440 Speaker 1: of folks. Certainly by the time that Hustler magazine article 1084 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,680 Speaker 1: comes out in seventy five, Uh, as I pointed out 1085 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,440 Speaker 1: in that Orian magazine piece of Mind in the Water 1086 00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,920 Speaker 1: that I mentioned earlier, Lily went on to just be 1087 00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:28,520 Speaker 1: widely reviled by professional dolphin researchers and working scientists have 1088 00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,480 Speaker 1: for some time tended to dismiss him as just a lunatic, 1089 00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, as this hippie nut job. And you can 1090 00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:37,680 Speaker 1: understand that, right, I mean, you're trying to do this 1091 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,880 Speaker 1: serious professional work, and his figure is sort of looming 1092 00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,760 Speaker 1: in the in your peripheral vision the whole time people 1093 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,680 Speaker 1: were perhaps bringing him up his he's he's tarnished your 1094 00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,600 Speaker 1: your your work, and your passions to a certain extent 1095 00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,440 Speaker 1: by his approach to tackling them. Well, especially knowing how 1096 00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:01,720 Speaker 1: competitive and sort of vicious unfortunly that like academic and 1097 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:06,720 Speaker 1: research competition can kind of go. Yeah, I'm not surprised 1098 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:08,720 Speaker 1: at all that sort of like the next generation of 1099 01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:13,040 Speaker 1: Dolphin researchers turned on him, although you know, it also 1100 01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:16,840 Speaker 1: does sound like he wasn't exactly producing uh, I guess 1101 01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,480 Speaker 1: like documented results, right, the kind of things that were 1102 01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,960 Speaker 1: that that were being looked for, both for the funding 1103 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:28,560 Speaker 1: but also to justify you know, what he was doing exactly. Well. 1104 01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,360 Speaker 1: I I also heard that, uh, and I'm curious if 1105 01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,320 Speaker 1: this is still true. This is from around the time 1106 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:40,400 Speaker 1: right before he died. Apparently the research station was going 1107 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,800 Speaker 1: to be converted into a luxury condo living center that 1108 01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:48,240 Speaker 1: was called Dolphin Cove. Yeah, so I wonder if Dolphin 1109 01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:53,240 Speaker 1: Cove is still there with St. Thomas right, Yeah, Yeah, curious, Yeah, 1110 01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,720 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from visited. I wonder if the 1111 01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,000 Speaker 1: underwater apartment is still there. You pay three hundred dollars 1112 01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,480 Speaker 1: a night to stay and there's no dolphin. You just 1113 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,840 Speaker 1: you know, you just walk around the water. Yeah. So okay, 1114 01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,600 Speaker 1: this is really like the final I guess stage of 1115 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:12,160 Speaker 1: Lily's research career, as it were. And he kind of 1116 01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,920 Speaker 1: goes whole hog into the LSD field right right, And 1117 01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,080 Speaker 1: this is pretty much the the path he continues for 1118 01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,320 Speaker 1: the rest of his life. Really, this is where this 1119 01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,959 Speaker 1: is where Lily truly becomes the the the coon skin 1120 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:30,160 Speaker 1: cap wearing, uh, psychonaut counterculture mythic figure. This is when 1121 01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:33,439 Speaker 1: he gets his membership card into the Psychedelic Avengers we've 1122 01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:37,000 Speaker 1: been talking about on on our episodes for quite versus 1123 01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,320 Speaker 1: officially a part of the team now and I've seen 1124 01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,840 Speaker 1: photos of him hanging out with Timothy Larry and Allen Ginsburg. Yeah, 1125 01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:47,440 Speaker 1: during this stage, and he apparently continues a certain degree 1126 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:51,440 Speaker 1: of of dolphin research. Uh. Some of it is um 1127 01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,600 Speaker 1: more is on the scientific side, like the use of 1128 01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:57,400 Speaker 1: musical tones. Some of it is more far more mystical, 1129 01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:01,720 Speaker 1: such as the looking into telepathy. But and it's and 1130 01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:05,520 Speaker 1: the dolphin continues to be kind of a mascot for 1131 01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,240 Speaker 1: him and for his work. So even though the c 1132 01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:13,920 Speaker 1: r I Center is gone, the dolphin still remains an 1133 01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,360 Speaker 1: important part of Lily's life. But of course so does LSD, 1134 01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:22,400 Speaker 1: and the use of LSD and other psychoactive agents too 1135 01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:27,040 Speaker 1: still crack that nut of consciousness in human existence and 1136 01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,360 Speaker 1: uh and and reached that providence of the mind. And 1137 01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,120 Speaker 1: one of my understandings is that like once l s 1138 01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:37,120 Speaker 1: D became illegal, he sort of moved into other psychotropics. 1139 01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:40,400 Speaker 1: Specifically ketamine was one that he used a lot um 1140 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:43,520 Speaker 1: and and wrote about a lot as well. Yes, indeed, 1141 01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:45,960 Speaker 1: and and if his writings are in in any indication, 1142 01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,920 Speaker 1: and he wrote a lot about his experiences using LSD. 1143 01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,640 Speaker 1: Like the times he used it, he really used it, 1144 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,640 Speaker 1: Like he went in Whole Hawk. He had access, legitimate 1145 01:02:55,680 --> 01:03:02,880 Speaker 1: access to pharmaceutical grade LSD and really attempted to just 1146 01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:04,920 Speaker 1: break through to the other side with it. And this 1147 01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:08,200 Speaker 1: was one of the actual, like primary resources you were 1148 01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,080 Speaker 1: able to get a hold of for this episode, right 1149 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:14,240 Speaker 1: with one of his books specifically about these experiences, what's 1150 01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,600 Speaker 1: it called. It's called programming and metaprogramming in the Human 1151 01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,200 Speaker 1: bio computer. And this is just kind of his like 1152 01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:23,080 Speaker 1: lab notes of taking LSD essentially, it's hiss Yeah. His 1153 01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,640 Speaker 1: big book of LSD Observations published in nineteen seventy two, 1154 01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:30,920 Speaker 1: and it's um god, it's a it's a very interesting 1155 01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:34,160 Speaker 1: book to read. It's a difficult book to to read 1156 01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:37,320 Speaker 1: as well. Uh, a lot of Louis writing on this 1157 01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:40,240 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Um. It seems to be a fascinating 1158 01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:44,960 Speaker 1: synthesis of converging discipline. So he's he's dealing with mysticism 1159 01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,120 Speaker 1: and new age thought. He's also using a lot of 1160 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:52,960 Speaker 1: computer programming terminology and computer programming metaphors and as his 1161 01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,240 Speaker 1: evidence in the title Yeah, and that goes back to 1162 01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,040 Speaker 1: when he was talking about the dolphins at the end 1163 01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,360 Speaker 1: of it too, he said they reprogrammed him right. And 1164 01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:02,480 Speaker 1: then there's a lot of psychoanalysis in there as well. 1165 01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:04,880 Speaker 1: Like any discipline he has picked up, any technology is 1166 01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:08,760 Speaker 1: picked up, it goes into this writing and at times 1167 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:11,760 Speaker 1: there's almost a stream of consciousness quality to the writings, 1168 01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,120 Speaker 1: as if all all three of these interpretive systems are 1169 01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:17,600 Speaker 1: working at the same time in different ways, and really 1170 01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,680 Speaker 1: is just sharing his thoughts in real time. And this 1171 01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:24,560 Speaker 1: can be at times alluring, it can be rather alienating. 1172 01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:28,280 Speaker 1: Their portions of programming the human computer that that read 1173 01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:34,120 Speaker 1: like the stuffiest trip guides you could possibly imagine. Yeah, yeah, 1174 01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,360 Speaker 1: I can sort of imagine, especially because right like he 1175 01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:38,640 Speaker 1: was beholden to no one. He's just kind of writing. 1176 01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:40,760 Speaker 1: I mean, if his present day he'd be publishing kindle 1177 01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,640 Speaker 1: e books or something like that, right, But like, isn't 1178 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,880 Speaker 1: there still like a trust or something like that that 1179 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:50,680 Speaker 1: manages his manages manages his publishing endeavors. Yeah, I believe so. 1180 01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean, all his books are still out there in 1181 01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:55,720 Speaker 1: one form or another. Um. But you know, even though 1182 01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:57,640 Speaker 1: at times there's stuffy, there other times where it does 1183 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:03,960 Speaker 1: just read like pure um psychonautic poetry. He's uh, he's 1184 01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,680 Speaker 1: he's taking all of this these tools and he's trying to, 1185 01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,480 Speaker 1: you know, figure out what the self is, what consciousness is, 1186 01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:13,360 Speaker 1: what are the limits of consciousness? Uh? And yeah, at 1187 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:16,240 Speaker 1: times it's beautiful and at times it's it's very difficult 1188 01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:18,959 Speaker 1: and alienating. And so this gets us into the lily 1189 01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:22,080 Speaker 1: phase that I have the hardest time identifying with. Up 1190 01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,280 Speaker 1: until this point, I'm on board, you know, I'm interested 1191 01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:27,960 Speaker 1: in what he's doing, interested in his findings, even when 1192 01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:32,360 Speaker 1: it comes to like, you know, uh, masturbating a dolphin 1193 01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,880 Speaker 1: and taking LSD to try to telepathically communicate with them 1194 01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:39,880 Speaker 1: like I'm I'm interested. But then we get into I 1195 01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:43,160 Speaker 1: guess it's the echo phase. This is where, by the way, 1196 01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:45,440 Speaker 1: like connected to the Echo the Dolphin video game. It's 1197 01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,560 Speaker 1: not echo e C h O, it's e c CEO 1198 01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:53,280 Speaker 1: because it's an acronym. Oh yes, Earth Coincidence Control Office. Yeah. 1199 01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:57,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, this ends up coming about in in the 1200 01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:01,280 Speaker 1: seventies really, but you see the roots of it back 1201 01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:05,040 Speaker 1: as far as nineteen two. Okay, um, because with his 1202 01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:09,200 Speaker 1: counterculture celebrity status, he attracted a lot of peers, followers, 1203 01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,600 Speaker 1: hangers on from all corners, including some of the day's 1204 01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:15,680 Speaker 1: most brilliant freethinking minds, such as a young Carl Sagan 1205 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:19,200 Speaker 1: For interesting, and by sixty two he'd organized the Order 1206 01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:24,360 Speaker 1: of the Dolphin and served as Grand Dolphin. And it's 1207 01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,920 Speaker 1: important to note that this was I kind of think 1208 01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:29,880 Speaker 1: of this as kind of like, um, it's kind of 1209 01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,400 Speaker 1: like a tool album. It's it's serious, but it's also 1210 01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:35,600 Speaker 1: not that serious. There's this performance are. Yeah, there's a 1211 01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,080 Speaker 1: certain amount of performance are. There's a certain amount of goofery, 1212 01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:40,320 Speaker 1: but then there are also some serious undertones as well. 1213 01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:47,360 Speaker 1: So this involves astrophysicist, radio astronomers, atmospheric chemists, computer engineers, um. 1214 01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:51,440 Speaker 1: And they even apparently have special special pins that they 1215 01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:53,880 Speaker 1: would wear. Man, can you imagine we could get ahold 1216 01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,800 Speaker 1: of some of those pins for a pretty penny on eBay? Yes, 1217 01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,160 Speaker 1: someone will sell onto me. Sure one of his ats, 1218 01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:02,520 Speaker 1: one of his and skin hats. Yeah, it was apparently 1219 01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:05,720 Speaker 1: a little Engrave dolphin. And eventually a lot of his 1220 01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:10,160 Speaker 1: more sci fi oriented ideas come out of this period 1221 01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,520 Speaker 1: as well. And again like I'm I'm I'm not a 1222 01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:16,800 Speaker 1: percent sure that Lily actually believed this stuff, right, I 1223 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:18,920 Speaker 1: think it's we need to cover it in order to 1224 01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,640 Speaker 1: sort of get the full Lily picture here, Right. I 1225 01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:25,520 Speaker 1: get the feeling that this is sort of him, like yeah, 1226 01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,320 Speaker 1: performance aret, maybe creating like living metaphors in order to 1227 01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:33,000 Speaker 1: somehow communicate his ideas out to people, right, Like, the 1228 01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:37,360 Speaker 1: more absurd and spectacular the idea, the more attention it's 1229 01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:40,480 Speaker 1: possibly going to get. Yeah, I mean a literal interpretation 1230 01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:42,200 Speaker 1: of some of these things we're talking about here, of 1231 01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:44,840 Speaker 1: his later ideas and writing it. It seems a bit 1232 01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,800 Speaker 1: too uh simple for such a complex individual, especially when 1233 01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,560 Speaker 1: we looked at what Lily himself wrote about his early writings, 1234 01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:56,160 Speaker 1: in particular in uh the nineteen seventy two forward to 1235 01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,840 Speaker 1: a reprint of Programming and Metaphor and the Beta Programming 1236 01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:02,800 Speaker 1: in Human Biocomputer, he said, I had written the report 1237 01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:05,800 Speaker 1: in such a way that it's basic messages were hidden 1238 01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:10,040 Speaker 1: behind a heavy, long introduction designed to stop the casual reader. Apparently, 1239 01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:13,520 Speaker 1: once word got out, this device no longer stalled the 1240 01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:17,479 Speaker 1: interested readers. Somehow, the basic messages were important enough to 1241 01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:22,600 Speaker 1: enough readers so that the work acquired an unexpected viability. 1242 01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:25,800 Speaker 1: So he's all, he's already talking at that stage about 1243 01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:28,960 Speaker 1: a kind of coded nature to his work, that that 1244 01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:32,799 Speaker 1: he's hiding ideas that he's and that he's layering these ideas. 1245 01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:36,040 Speaker 1: So it seems, yeah, in light of that, it seems 1246 01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:39,840 Speaker 1: a bit counterintuitive to say that, for instance, when he's 1247 01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:44,320 Speaker 1: talking about the threat of a UM solid state intelligence, 1248 01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:48,360 Speaker 1: that he's lead speaking literally. Yeah, I mean, we have 1249 01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:51,080 Speaker 1: to remember back up, like, this is a guy whose 1250 01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:56,439 Speaker 1: whole purpose in life was human consciousness and uh, connecting 1251 01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:01,960 Speaker 1: human consciousness to other consciousnesses, right, and language. He's fully 1252 01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:03,880 Speaker 1: aware that language is the best way that we're doing 1253 01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:06,280 Speaker 1: that now in the ways to manipulate it in order 1254 01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:09,479 Speaker 1: to sort of best I guess you could almost look 1255 01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,160 Speaker 1: at that as a like tool of rhetoric, right, in 1256 01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:14,439 Speaker 1: order for him to get his ideas across. But yeah, 1257 01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:16,840 Speaker 1: let's back up with like the solid state and the 1258 01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,679 Speaker 1: echoes stuff. So this is this is pretty out there, 1259 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:24,080 Speaker 1: Like he posits that there's like an alien intelligence that's 1260 01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:26,760 Speaker 1: kind of in control of everything, right, Yeah, this is 1261 01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,280 Speaker 1: where we get into that, uh, into this idea that 1262 01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:34,720 Speaker 1: is a hierarchy of coincidence control offices at the Earth level, 1263 01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,400 Speaker 1: solar level, galactic and cosmics. So again that's where we 1264 01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:41,439 Speaker 1: get down to echo right, Earth coincidence control offices, and 1265 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:44,720 Speaker 1: these are essentially serving the same purpose of God as 1266 01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,880 Speaker 1: a controlling intelligence in the universe. So this is really 1267 01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:52,040 Speaker 1: this is really turning to two notions of spirituality, really 1268 01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,320 Speaker 1: thinking about God and putting his own spin on what 1269 01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:59,559 Speaker 1: God would be in his worldview. Yeah, yeah, and it's 1270 01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,080 Speaker 1: not that far off from like other I'm thinking like 1271 01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:06,240 Speaker 1: Philip K. Dick for definitely, like he's writing around the 1272 01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:08,920 Speaker 1: same period of time, so it's not that far off. 1273 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,880 Speaker 1: I can imagine that Lily would maybe pick up something 1274 01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,400 Speaker 1: like Vallis and be like, Okay, maybe this is a 1275 01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:16,640 Speaker 1: cool idea for me to get my ideas of consciousness 1276 01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,400 Speaker 1: across now that the Navy has pulled my funding. Yeah. 1277 01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:22,640 Speaker 1: He also, as I alluded to earlier, he prophesied a 1278 01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:28,080 Speaker 1: future conflict between organic intelligence and machine intelligence, which he 1279 01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,040 Speaker 1: referred to as the solid state intelligence or s s I. 1280 01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:34,479 Speaker 1: So specifically, he said this would be a conflict over 1281 01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:39,360 Speaker 1: ideal environmental conditions for either humans or the sort of 1282 01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:43,760 Speaker 1: s s I created bioforms that crave cold and vacuums. 1283 01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:47,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, well, I mean and then along this 1284 01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:49,600 Speaker 1: period of time too, is when he envisions what I 1285 01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:51,840 Speaker 1: was telling you about earlier, which I thought was where 1286 01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:53,960 Speaker 1: the apartment thing was going, but he called it the 1287 01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:59,000 Speaker 1: future communications laboratory, and he called it a floating living room. Uh. 1288 01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:01,200 Speaker 1: And the idea was that this is where humans and 1289 01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:04,280 Speaker 1: dolphins would come to connect. So I'm imagining something like 1290 01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:06,800 Speaker 1: along the lines of like a c world type thing 1291 01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:10,360 Speaker 1: that's less uh imprisoning to the dolphins, right where the 1292 01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:14,360 Speaker 1: dolphins can kind of come up and interact with human beings. Uh. 1293 01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:17,000 Speaker 1: And and so that that idea is like along those 1294 01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:19,200 Speaker 1: same lines, I guess but we have to remember to 1295 01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:22,000 Speaker 1: like nineteen seventy two, the same time he's he's he's 1296 01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,960 Speaker 1: getting into this real weird stuff. Lily's pivotal to establishing 1297 01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:30,080 Speaker 1: the Marine Mammal Protection Act within the United States government. 1298 01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:35,200 Speaker 1: You know, I mean he's grounded. He's actually affecting change 1299 01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:39,680 Speaker 1: and in how human beings are connecting with dolphins, but 1300 01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,760 Speaker 1: he's also you know, experimenting with some of this other stuff. Yeah. 1301 01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:45,679 Speaker 1: I have to say, just like backing up and looking 1302 01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:48,439 Speaker 1: at the big picture here, I think he was having 1303 01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:51,200 Speaker 1: a laugh, you know, or or or or maybe just 1304 01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:54,960 Speaker 1: trying to use, um some really out there ideas in 1305 01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:58,760 Speaker 1: order to draw attention to his more grounded philosophy. Yeah, 1306 01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:02,680 Speaker 1: he's more of a a mystical philosopher, dreamer, and to 1307 01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,320 Speaker 1: a certain extent, trickster. You can't wear a coonskin caps 1308 01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:10,280 Speaker 1: like that and expect to be taking taking seriously. You're 1309 01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,560 Speaker 1: kind of winking at the audience at that point. But 1310 01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,800 Speaker 1: but to your point, Yeah, he he was a was 1311 01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:20,360 Speaker 1: a major proponent of of not only the intelligence and 1312 01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:22,920 Speaker 1: value of dolphins, but they're in Wales, but there their 1313 01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,760 Speaker 1: rights as well. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean he believed that 1314 01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:29,280 Speaker 1: killing whales and dolphins was as immoral as killing other 1315 01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:32,320 Speaker 1: human beings, and they should be protected by law and 1316 01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:35,479 Speaker 1: humans should understand them as sentient beings. This is one 1317 01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:37,320 Speaker 1: of the big quotes that I saw pop up from 1318 01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:40,160 Speaker 1: him over and over and over again about dolphins. He said, 1319 01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:44,080 Speaker 1: they are not someone to kill, but someone to learn from. 1320 01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:47,240 Speaker 1: And I think you see that, And at least we're 1321 01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:50,000 Speaker 1: not quite there yet obviously, but I mean, like, think 1322 01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:53,040 Speaker 1: of all of the protests over the last couple of 1323 01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:56,680 Speaker 1: decades about like dolphins getting killed in tuna traps, right, 1324 01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:01,560 Speaker 1: like that kind of uh thought about dolphins would not 1325 01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:05,519 Speaker 1: have been possible without Lily. Indeed, So there you have it, 1326 01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:09,960 Speaker 1: John C. Lily hopefully a a much more complete picture 1327 01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,720 Speaker 1: of the man and his work, his seriousness, his madness, 1328 01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:18,479 Speaker 1: his his his imagination, and his just you know, intense, 1329 01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:22,760 Speaker 1: hyper focused intellect um, certainly more so than we've been 1330 01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:26,800 Speaker 1: able to do in previous episodes. Yeah, So, you know, 1331 01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,160 Speaker 1: I would love to hear from people out there who 1332 01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:31,880 Speaker 1: have maybe got some because it seems like there's just 1333 01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:35,280 Speaker 1: such a wide array of resources about Lily. Is there 1334 01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:37,720 Speaker 1: something that we missed here or is there more to 1335 01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,400 Speaker 1: the story. Maybe you know something about Echo that we 1336 01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:42,439 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe you've been in touch with the solid 1337 01:13:42,520 --> 01:13:45,280 Speaker 1: state intelligence. Uh, you know, you can talk to us 1338 01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:48,520 Speaker 1: on Facebook, Twitter, and Tumbler. Were in all those platforms, 1339 01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:50,760 Speaker 1: and of course the best way to get in touch 1340 01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:54,080 Speaker 1: with us is directly at our email address, which is 1341 01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:57,479 Speaker 1: blow the mind at how Stuff Works dot Com. Now, 1342 01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,760 Speaker 1: most of you are used to the show ending right 1343 01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:02,960 Speaker 1: are We usually end it right after dot com. But 1344 01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:05,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna end a little differently today, Right Robert, you 1345 01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:07,919 Speaker 1: found a particular gem that we're gonna add to the episode. 1346 01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:09,640 Speaker 1: That's right. We're going to close it out with the 1347 01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:13,040 Speaker 1: Art Department track The Agent, off of the two thousand 1348 01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:17,680 Speaker 1: fourteen album Natural Selection from number nineteen music there uh 1349 01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:22,000 Speaker 1: in O one nine music on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. 1350 01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:24,839 Speaker 1: This is a really cool track and it includes samples 1351 01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:28,880 Speaker 1: from John C. Lily's lecture through the Center of the Mandola. 1352 01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:35,400 Speaker 1: One problem in human existence It is the tendency to 1353 01:14:35,560 --> 01:15:16,400 Speaker 1: repeat repeat of the water control for moralness and thousands 1354 01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:18,800 Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it How Stuff Works dot Com