WEBVTT - Is the Era of Free Returns Over? 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:21.156 --> 0:00:25.836 There's this genre of YouTube video, the unboxing video. It 0:00:25.876 --> 0:00:28.316 starts with somebody on screen with a package that just 0:00:28.356 --> 0:00:32.196 got delivered. It's something they ordered online, a watch or 0:00:32.356 --> 0:00:35.716 a stand mixer, really could be anything, and the video 0:00:36.356 --> 0:00:39.796 is just the person opening the package and then opening 0:00:39.876 --> 0:00:43.356 the box inside the package and taking out this new 0:00:43.396 --> 0:00:46.516 thing that they just bought. That's it. That is the 0:00:46.636 --> 0:00:50.636 unboxing video, and it's not really my thing. I want 0:00:50.636 --> 0:00:56.676 somebody to make reboxing videos. Some practical middle aged dad, say, 0:00:57.356 --> 0:01:00.476 decides he really doesn't need those those hiking boots that 0:01:00.516 --> 0:01:03.156 he ordered online last week. We see him putting the 0:01:03.196 --> 0:01:05.516 boots back in the shoe box and then putting the 0:01:05.516 --> 0:01:08.916 shoebox in a cardboard box, taping it up, maybe putting 0:01:08.916 --> 0:01:11.676 able on the box, and then dropping the box off 0:01:11.676 --> 0:01:16.876 at ups for that sweet, sweet full refund. That is 0:01:16.956 --> 0:01:26.476 relatable content. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, 0:01:26.716 --> 0:01:28.956 the show where I talk to people who are trying 0:01:28.996 --> 0:01:33.796 to make technological progress. My guest today is Ahmatsharma. He's 0:01:33.796 --> 0:01:37.676 the co founder and CEO of Narvar. Narvar works with 0:01:37.716 --> 0:01:41.796 companies like Sephora, Lululemon, and home Depot to manage the 0:01:41.956 --> 0:01:47.716 post purchase phase of online shopping, tracking alerts, and crucially, 0:01:48.316 --> 0:01:52.796 returns and returns are huge, hundreds of billions of dollars 0:01:52.836 --> 0:01:56.196 a year in the US overall, something like ten percent 0:01:56.316 --> 0:01:59.956 of online purchases are returned, and for categories like shoes, 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:03.396 it's even higher, around twenty five or thirty percent. For 0:02:03.436 --> 0:02:06.556 the retailers I'm it works with, this is profoundly expensive. 0:02:07.116 --> 0:02:09.916 So the problem I wanted to discuss the omet was this. 0:02:10.836 --> 0:02:14.316 E commerce companies have trained us to love free returns, 0:02:14.476 --> 0:02:17.836 but will they be able to afford it to start? Though, 0:02:18.196 --> 0:02:21.476 we talked about just the basics of how returns work. 0:02:23.476 --> 0:02:25.876 What happens when I send back a pair of shoes. 0:02:25.916 --> 0:02:28.396 I know there's lots of options, but I do whatever 0:02:29.196 --> 0:02:31.676 I ship it off. What happens to that pair of 0:02:31.716 --> 0:02:34.396 shoes that I have bought and sent back next? Where 0:02:34.396 --> 0:02:34.796 does it go? 0:02:35.276 --> 0:02:39.396 Once that pair of shoes gets back to the retailer, 0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:42.796 they will do what they call the grading process, which 0:02:42.796 --> 0:02:46.756 will say, hey, is this shoe is in a good 0:02:46.876 --> 0:02:51.196 condition to go back on shelf to be sold again 0:02:51.596 --> 0:02:54.596 as a proper full price item. 0:02:54.356 --> 0:02:57.036 So as a new pair of shoes? Yeah? 0:02:57.116 --> 0:02:57.556 If not? 0:02:57.996 --> 0:03:01.676 If it is you know, if it's scuffed or there 0:03:01.676 --> 0:03:04.436 are some issues, can it can be sold on hey, 0:03:04.916 --> 0:03:07.596 worn already or a discounted piece of it. 0:03:07.916 --> 0:03:09.556 So there's a second way of doing that. 0:03:10.156 --> 0:03:14.876 Third is that if it is completely in non sellable condition, 0:03:15.556 --> 0:03:18.796 then you know, retailers have a couple of options. Either 0:03:18.836 --> 0:03:23.076 it goes to landfill or you can actually sell sell 0:03:23.076 --> 0:03:26.716 into secondary market, which means it may show up on 0:03:27.796 --> 0:03:30.436 other market places such as eBay. 0:03:30.756 --> 0:03:34.556 So does that mean that when I'm buying shoes online, 0:03:34.836 --> 0:03:37.476 are they usually shoes that somebody has like bought and 0:03:37.516 --> 0:03:39.596 then returned? Like? How often when I buy a pair 0:03:39.596 --> 0:03:41.476 of new shoes has somebody bought them and returned them? 0:03:41.556 --> 0:03:42.436 It's a good chance. 0:03:42.476 --> 0:03:46.636 I mean, you know, usually for a pair of shoes, 0:03:46.676 --> 0:03:50.756 it might take three or four round trips to find 0:03:50.796 --> 0:03:54.396 the right home or right pair of feet to get there. 0:03:54.516 --> 0:03:56.196 Wait, when you say three or four round trips, do 0:03:56.196 --> 0:03:59.876 you mean most like is there for a typical pair 0:03:59.876 --> 0:04:02.436 of shoes sold online? It goes out and back and 0:04:02.476 --> 0:04:04.596 out and back like that's a normal things. 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:06.676 Normal thing. I mean typically people will buy one size 0:04:06.716 --> 0:04:07.636 up and one size down. 0:04:07.836 --> 0:04:11.636 Twenty plus years ago, Appos when they started in the place. 0:04:11.676 --> 0:04:13.956 I mean that there was a they changed the equation 0:04:14.276 --> 0:04:17.316 free shipping and free returns both ways out and then 0:04:17.436 --> 0:04:20.836 you know, you will see all the experience and the 0:04:20.836 --> 0:04:23.316 stories out there from consumers where they're trying on shoes 0:04:23.316 --> 0:04:26.156 and they're keeping what they like or fit, and the 0:04:26.196 --> 0:04:26.956 returning rest of. 0:04:26.916 --> 0:04:31.196 It was the Zappos free returns thing, like the watershed 0:04:31.236 --> 0:04:35.716 moment for returns. Is that the like glowing origin story 0:04:35.516 --> 0:04:37.636 of online. 0:04:37.236 --> 0:04:41.916 Returns absolutely hands down, and Zappos and Zamazon they changed 0:04:41.916 --> 0:04:44.996 the equation for consumers for good. 0:04:45.516 --> 0:04:47.556 I want to talk a little bit about the kind 0:04:47.636 --> 0:04:51.196 of evolution of online returns, right, So Zappos was what 0:04:51.276 --> 0:04:55.836 their early oughts. So before Zappo's hard for people to believe. 0:04:55.876 --> 0:04:57.796 Now you had to pay to return stuff where you 0:04:57.796 --> 0:04:58.676 bought it online. 0:04:58.876 --> 0:05:02.756 That is correct, And you may even have to call 0:05:02.836 --> 0:05:07.196 the contact center or customer service to even get an 0:05:07.276 --> 0:05:10.996 authorization that you can even return it. Hey, I am 0:05:11.116 --> 0:05:12.916 so and so and I placed an order and I 0:05:12.956 --> 0:05:15.596 would like to return it. It gets authorized, then only 0:05:15.636 --> 0:05:16.236 you send. 0:05:15.996 --> 0:05:19.076 It back, like the companies really didn't want you to 0:05:19.156 --> 0:05:20.876 return stuff you bought online. 0:05:21.076 --> 0:05:23.596 Well, that's one way of saying it. If you want 0:05:23.636 --> 0:05:26.276 to speak with brands and retailers. They would say, we 0:05:26.356 --> 0:05:28.236 really want you to make sure you're buying what you 0:05:28.276 --> 0:05:28.836 want to keep. 0:05:29.116 --> 0:05:31.116 And I mean it makes sense, right, I mean it 0:05:31.196 --> 0:05:35.756 must be profoundly expensive for companies to deal with returns, right, 0:05:35.756 --> 0:05:37.916 I mean, let's talk about that. So, first of all, 0:05:37.996 --> 0:05:41.916 free returns are not in fact free, right, We're all 0:05:41.996 --> 0:05:44.916 there included, we're all paying for free returns, whether we 0:05:45.196 --> 0:05:46.076 return stuff or not. 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:51.756 Absolutely. I mean there's a cost of shipping or bringing 0:05:51.796 --> 0:05:55.196 it back. There is the labor cost of as we 0:05:55.356 --> 0:06:00.156 just discussing, inspecting it, grading it, you know, putting it 0:06:00.236 --> 0:06:03.876 back on shelf, and then selling it again. 0:06:03.916 --> 0:06:05.436 So there's so much cost. 0:06:05.476 --> 0:06:10.036 And then, as we discuss, not everything goes back online 0:06:10.076 --> 0:06:12.476 to sell full price. You know, twenty thirty percent of 0:06:12.516 --> 0:06:15.796 items get discarded, either in the secondary market or landfill. 0:06:15.836 --> 0:06:20.556 So they say tangible, significant cost associated with returns. 0:06:21.236 --> 0:06:23.356 And I feel like for companies at some level, this 0:06:23.436 --> 0:06:27.516 is an optimization problem, right. They want to maximize sales 0:06:27.716 --> 0:06:31.116 while minimizing returns, and to some extent those things are 0:06:31.116 --> 0:06:31.996 our intention for. 0:06:31.956 --> 0:06:35.196 Them, absolutely, no doubt about it. 0:06:35.676 --> 0:06:40.796 And then our analysis shows to quantify that for you know, 0:06:41.076 --> 0:06:46.636 every one hundred dollars of online sales, roughly twenty five 0:06:46.716 --> 0:06:51.156 or twenty six dollars of impact comes from returns. 0:06:52.076 --> 0:06:55.036 So that's twenty five percent of the gross twenty five 0:06:55.076 --> 0:06:57.876 percent of their gross revenue is dealing with returns. 0:06:58.116 --> 0:07:01.996 Absolutely, yeah, a lot, Yeah, it is. That is a lot. Yeah, 0:07:02.036 --> 0:07:03.076 it's a massive number. 0:07:03.836 --> 0:07:06.076 Is part of what your company tries to do to 0:07:06.156 --> 0:07:07.836 get that percentage down. 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:11.116 Yes, So there are a couple of things that you 0:07:11.116 --> 0:07:14.676 have to think about. You can actually figure out what's 0:07:14.716 --> 0:07:17.956 the most optimal way or the cost effective way to 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:21.556 bring the goods back to the merchant. So who is 0:07:21.596 --> 0:07:24.556 the right carrier, which is the right location to drop off? 0:07:24.596 --> 0:07:28.796 And there are cost effective ways. Second A is enforcing 0:07:28.836 --> 0:07:29.876 your returns policy. 0:07:30.156 --> 0:07:30.316 Right. 0:07:30.356 --> 0:07:34.156 So if you are, you know, buying something online and 0:07:35.276 --> 0:07:39.436 retailer has thirty day policy, you don't want to offer 0:07:39.556 --> 0:07:42.836 or honor returns at day forty five or day fifty. 0:07:43.356 --> 0:07:47.196 I have observed that different companies make it easier or 0:07:47.236 --> 0:07:52.556 less easy to return things, right. I will say, you know, 0:07:52.636 --> 0:07:54.676 sometimes you can just bring the thing. You don't even 0:07:54.716 --> 0:07:56.516 have to put it in a box. You just bring 0:07:56.556 --> 0:07:59.396 the thing to whatever the drug store or all foods 0:07:59.836 --> 0:08:03.316 and give them the thing which feels like magic. Sometimes 0:08:03.316 --> 0:08:05.476 you have to like put it in the box. Sometimes 0:08:05.556 --> 0:08:08.836 even have to print out the label, which who even 0:08:08.876 --> 0:08:12.316 has a printer. I have assumed that those were deliberate 0:08:12.396 --> 0:08:15.436 choices on the part of companies, and that there was 0:08:15.476 --> 0:08:18.036 a strategic reason to make it harder to return things, 0:08:18.036 --> 0:08:20.156 which is it would cause people to return things less 0:08:20.476 --> 0:08:20.916 for sure. 0:08:20.916 --> 0:08:22.876 But Jacob, let me ask you a question. Would you 0:08:22.916 --> 0:08:25.156 buy your pair of shoes when it is arduous or 0:08:25.156 --> 0:08:27.076 a difficult process to return from the company that you 0:08:27.076 --> 0:08:28.116 would like to buy. 0:08:28.436 --> 0:08:32.076 If they were a lot cheaper? Maybe right? If there's 0:08:32.076 --> 0:08:35.156 something take running shoes. I buy basically the same pair 0:08:35.196 --> 0:08:37.996 of running shoes every few months. I know what running 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:42.156 shoes I want. It's the Nike Pegasus whatever is last 0:08:42.196 --> 0:08:45.556 year's model. I've been buying them for many years. And 0:08:45.596 --> 0:08:47.676 in fact, when I buy those shoes, I go to 0:08:47.796 --> 0:08:51.596 like weird second tier retailers because I just want to 0:08:51.596 --> 0:08:53.436 buy them cheap. I know what they are, so in 0:08:53.476 --> 0:08:58.036 those instances I am more price sensitive and less concerned 0:08:58.076 --> 0:08:59.396 that my returns will be easy. 0:08:59.996 --> 0:09:01.836 But do you bring a really great point? And the 0:09:02.036 --> 0:09:06.396 consumer behavior is in essentially two pieces, right value seeking 0:09:06.956 --> 0:09:08.676 whether it is a good value. 0:09:08.356 --> 0:09:11.156 For the product you buy, or convenience seeking. Those are 0:09:11.196 --> 0:09:11.996 the two pieces. 0:09:12.236 --> 0:09:16.756 So the question is, you know, for businesses to grow, 0:09:17.276 --> 0:09:20.716 they not only need their loyal customers, but they need 0:09:20.756 --> 0:09:23.156 the next set of new customers who are coming to you. 0:09:23.676 --> 0:09:26.756 Right and if you're a brand or a retailer. 0:09:26.396 --> 0:09:29.796 And if you are attracting the customer for the first time, 0:09:30.316 --> 0:09:35.076 they actually do check your help section and retailer's FAQ 0:09:35.236 --> 0:09:37.996 to make sure what are your returns policies. I'm not 0:09:38.476 --> 0:09:41.116 comfortable buying for the first time for a brand or 0:09:41.196 --> 0:09:44.156 retailer if I don't know if those pair of shoes 0:09:44.756 --> 0:09:48.276 and I have easy to understand or easy to follow 0:09:48.516 --> 0:09:49.396 returns process. 0:09:50.356 --> 0:09:52.756 I mean there's another version, and you do still see 0:09:52.796 --> 0:09:56.476 it sometimes, although it's rare, which is when you send 0:09:56.516 --> 0:09:59.036 something back they charge you for shipping. They're like, we'll 0:09:59.036 --> 0:10:02.156 give you a refund minus eight dollars for shipping. Like 0:10:02.516 --> 0:10:05.476 that is still a thing that one sees occasionally. 0:10:05.676 --> 0:10:10.996 Not not occasionally, you'll be surprised forty percent four zero 0:10:11.476 --> 0:10:16.076 percent of top online retailers in the US are charging 0:10:16.116 --> 0:10:17.156 for return fee. 0:10:17.436 --> 0:10:19.156 Oh you don't say, yeah. 0:10:18.956 --> 0:10:21.636 And typically in your example, what they will say, I. 0:10:21.556 --> 0:10:24.876 Will give you your money back minus the return fee. 0:10:25.156 --> 0:10:28.196 Like, behaviorally, that's a nice move, right because you're still 0:10:28.236 --> 0:10:31.316 getting money back and so like, I feel like it 0:10:31.436 --> 0:10:34.716 works with the behavioral economics pretty well. And do your 0:10:35.276 --> 0:10:37.356 customers choose that as well? Is that sort of on 0:10:37.396 --> 0:10:38.636 the menu of things you offer? 0:10:38.796 --> 0:10:41.916 Yeah, I mean we are a tech platform. You can 0:10:42.036 --> 0:10:46.996 design and define your returns policies. And I think earlier 0:10:47.036 --> 0:10:50.876 you were saying even the choice and convenience, whether. 0:10:52.316 --> 0:10:57.596 A retailer wants consumer to print the label in their homes. 0:10:57.476 --> 0:11:00.076 Or their offices if they're going to offices, or pack 0:11:00.116 --> 0:11:02.916 it yourself and then drop it off, or you just 0:11:03.036 --> 0:11:05.796 bring the item which is non boxed, don't have to 0:11:05.796 --> 0:11:09.676 print the label, simply go to designated places where they 0:11:09.716 --> 0:11:11.636 will scan your QR code. 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:14.436 Don't worry about printing a label or package it. 0:11:14.676 --> 0:11:19.236 Then, all these things are designed based on the brand's 0:11:20.036 --> 0:11:24.116 position on those pieces, and they drive different behaviors. For example, 0:11:24.356 --> 0:11:26.796 if you give them the choice, they will actually return 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:29.316 those items faster. It's not sitting in your car or 0:11:29.436 --> 0:11:33.796 back of your trunk and finding the right place to 0:11:33.836 --> 0:11:34.636 doing the returns. 0:11:35.076 --> 0:11:37.316 Let me ask you this, when a company makes me 0:11:37.396 --> 0:11:39.996 print out a return label? Are they doing it to 0:11:40.116 --> 0:11:42.476 reduce the chances that I will return the product? 0:11:43.036 --> 0:11:46.156 That's a good, good question. I never thought that way 0:11:46.676 --> 0:11:48.676 is just giving and. 0:11:48.796 --> 0:11:51.356 Why else would they do it? You know, there are 0:11:51.396 --> 0:11:53.996 companies and I like this. I like this. There are 0:11:53.996 --> 0:11:57.756 companies that will put in the package they're shipping you 0:11:58.036 --> 0:12:02.556 a return sticker label right where you open the bag. 0:12:02.636 --> 0:12:06.076 It's like a plastic bag and you take out the 0:12:06.116 --> 0:12:09.076 shirt or whatever, and A the plastic bag is resealed, 0:12:09.436 --> 0:12:11.956 and b there's a sticker return label. And like when 0:12:11.956 --> 0:12:15.556 a company does that, I'm like, they're on my side. 0:12:15.636 --> 0:12:17.076 I mean, they're on my side. Is kind of a dumb, 0:12:17.156 --> 0:12:19.156 naive thing to think, But I think, oh that's nice, 0:12:19.196 --> 0:12:21.436 Like that is going to make me a more loyal 0:12:21.476 --> 0:12:24.636 customer of this company because they are not deliberately making 0:12:24.676 --> 0:12:26.356 it hard for me to return this shirt. 0:12:26.476 --> 0:12:29.636 Okay, so let's play a devil's advocate there. Yeah, we 0:12:29.836 --> 0:12:33.516 just discussed that on an average, On an average in 0:12:33.556 --> 0:12:36.396 the retail industry, online returns rates. 0:12:36.236 --> 0:12:38.236 Around ten percent. Yeah, ten percent. 0:12:38.396 --> 0:12:44.116 That means ninety percent of the paper print ink electricity 0:12:44.196 --> 0:12:46.796 going to that printing that label is never going to 0:12:46.796 --> 0:12:47.116 be used. 0:12:48.276 --> 0:12:50.796 Come on, is that really you really think it's the 0:12:50.876 --> 0:12:53.916 cost of printing the label? Come on, what's the cost 0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:55.276 of print a label for. 0:12:55.316 --> 0:12:57.516 A large retailer? It will cost you closer to million 0:12:57.556 --> 0:12:58.236 dollars every year. 0:12:59.116 --> 0:13:02.636 I know, But we care about one label. What's the 0:13:02.676 --> 0:13:04.036 cost of the print one label? 0:13:04.236 --> 0:13:08.396 But that's another good twenty five cents. But it adds up. 0:13:09.236 --> 0:13:10.236 Everything adds up. 0:13:10.756 --> 0:13:13.836 Listen, there's a dial that companies can turn of like 0:13:14.156 --> 0:13:17.556 make it really easy to return things, make it medium 0:13:17.596 --> 0:13:20.316 to return things, make it hard, right, and they would 0:13:20.316 --> 0:13:24.356 be dumb not to think about the behavioral responses to 0:13:24.436 --> 0:13:27.636 the things they're doing. Right, Truly, that's part of the calculation. 0:13:27.356 --> 0:13:30.876 Absolutely, But you know it's not either are you know 0:13:31.036 --> 0:13:33.316 you want to keep the label inside the box? Great, 0:13:33.556 --> 0:13:38.356 but oftentimes consumers will throw that packaging label and then 0:13:38.596 --> 0:13:40.276 a few days later they want to return it. 0:13:40.796 --> 0:13:41.436 Where do they go? 0:13:41.556 --> 0:13:44.316 They still need somewhere online to now get a QR 0:13:44.396 --> 0:13:46.836 code or something to go handle there. 0:13:48.876 --> 0:13:51.276 I feel like you're big an apologist for companies that 0:13:51.316 --> 0:13:54.556 make it hard to return things. I thought you'd be 0:13:54.556 --> 0:13:55.476 on my side on this. 0:13:55.396 --> 0:13:59.876 One, and all I'm saying is beyond the products you're selling. 0:14:01.036 --> 0:14:05.116 What kind of value add services and experiences you are offering, 0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:09.116 Especially in our discussion, the same pair of Nike shoes 0:14:09.156 --> 0:14:11.876 you can buy in half a dozen places. Where is 0:14:12.396 --> 0:14:16.556 the company's value proposition there? That's the biggest question besides 0:14:16.596 --> 0:14:20.316 the price. We discussed price is one key lever outside 0:14:20.356 --> 0:14:23.556 of the price, where else otherwise it's race to the bottom. 0:14:24.236 --> 0:14:26.956 Right, So you know that's the question. 0:14:27.116 --> 0:14:31.356 So our piece is that, I know, using the technology 0:14:31.956 --> 0:14:34.716 and then figuring out where do you want to actually 0:14:35.276 --> 0:14:39.156 craft your policies, Whether you want to make it, you know, difficult, 0:14:40.036 --> 0:14:43.836 or you want to make it more reasonable or extremely convenient. Right, 0:14:44.276 --> 0:14:48.596 all those things are there, but underlining factor remains and 0:14:48.636 --> 0:14:53.076 which is you you're calling out it costs money? 0:14:54.436 --> 0:15:06.236 After the break, Amazon, Now back to the show. I've 0:15:06.236 --> 0:15:09.276 thought of Amazon a lot in this conversation. You you 0:15:09.316 --> 0:15:11.796 have done a lot for returns, you have a lot 0:15:11.796 --> 0:15:15.396 of big clients. But Amazon is also very impressive in 0:15:15.476 --> 0:15:19.316 terms of returns. What's something you've learned from watching and 0:15:19.436 --> 0:15:21.316 in some ways competing with Amazon? 0:15:22.236 --> 0:15:24.036 First off, we don't compete with Amazon. 0:15:24.076 --> 0:15:26.596 We love Amazon because they set the standard and we 0:15:26.636 --> 0:15:29.196 want to make sure we can democratize those standards and 0:15:29.636 --> 0:15:33.636 giving that back choice and convenience for everybody. So it's 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:37.276 a level playing fields for all the brands and retailers 0:15:37.276 --> 0:15:38.236 that they can leverage. 0:15:38.396 --> 0:15:41.036 So there's nothing that we can do that, you know. 0:15:41.116 --> 0:15:43.516 So you go to your clients and say, do you 0:15:43.556 --> 0:15:46.996 want to be as good as Amazon on tracking and returns? 0:15:47.116 --> 0:15:48.196 We can do that for you. 0:15:48.596 --> 0:15:52.676 And nine out of ten conversations are, hey, I already shop, 0:15:52.796 --> 0:15:55.276 I'm already a Prime member, and how do I offer 0:15:55.356 --> 0:15:58.636 same similar services to my customers? So that's that is 0:15:58.676 --> 0:16:02.316 absolutely absolutely the case. I mean the other piece I'm 0:16:02.356 --> 0:16:06.316 saying that, you know, it's very impressive to see Amazon 0:16:06.636 --> 0:16:11.356 offering these returns services at scale, not only just in 0:16:11.396 --> 0:16:14.596 the US, they operate globally, right so, and it's just seeing, 0:16:15.036 --> 0:16:19.676 you know, how you can offer these kind of programs. 0:16:19.676 --> 0:16:21.236 It just has been quite impressive. 0:16:21.636 --> 0:16:24.156 You know how hard it is. You truly know how hard. 0:16:23.996 --> 0:16:26.436 It is to do. Absolutely absolutely, So. 0:16:26.556 --> 0:16:29.596 I feel like there's an interesting maybe and maybe I'm 0:16:29.636 --> 0:16:33.276 kind of reaching here, but there's like this bigger macroeconomic 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:35.716 idea that I'm curious about here, which is we've just 0:16:35.876 --> 0:16:39.356 lived through this call it ten year period, you know, 0:16:39.476 --> 0:16:46.036 basically the teens of zero interest rates, incredible inflow of 0:16:46.156 --> 0:16:51.396 capital to tech companies, including e commerce companies, growth above 0:16:51.436 --> 0:16:53.756 all else. Right, So this is a universe I feel 0:16:53.796 --> 0:16:58.596 like where online retailers are just throwing free returns at 0:16:58.676 --> 0:17:00.676 us and free shipping and they just want you to 0:17:00.676 --> 0:17:03.796 buy and they don't care if you return. And so 0:17:03.836 --> 0:17:09.316 the high costs of free returns could be absorbed in 0:17:09.356 --> 0:17:13.836 that era. Now we're in this new era when interest 0:17:13.916 --> 0:17:16.836 rates are not zero, when lots of tech companies have 0:17:16.956 --> 0:17:21.196 become more interested in profits relative to growth. And so 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:23.996 I'm curious now that we've all been trained to just 0:17:24.156 --> 0:17:27.836 expect free returns whenever we want it, Like our company 0:17:27.876 --> 0:17:30.036 is going to stop giving us free returns now. 0:17:30.996 --> 0:17:33.236 I can tell you hands down returns. This top of 0:17:33.316 --> 0:17:36.796 mind for all the retailers. So now the question comes, 0:17:37.236 --> 0:17:41.316 how do they actually really think about from the P 0:17:41.436 --> 0:17:44.156 and L perspective, not just the consumer experience perspective. 0:17:44.196 --> 0:17:46.116 How do you bring the P and L perspective to 0:17:46.196 --> 0:17:47.196 really do that and. 0:17:47.596 --> 0:17:53.876 All profit and loss absolutely, Now, whether they're going to 0:17:53.956 --> 0:17:56.916 make it harder, are they going to actually. 0:17:58.036 --> 0:18:00.156 You know, charge more to the consumers? 0:18:00.476 --> 0:18:02.396 I can make it, you can return it, but it's 0:18:02.396 --> 0:18:05.436 going to cost you, right, That's where the conversation is 0:18:05.436 --> 0:18:05.796 going to go. 0:18:06.156 --> 0:18:08.036 And that is what exactly is happening in the market. 0:18:08.996 --> 0:18:12.276 So it is more retailers are in fact charging for 0:18:12.356 --> 0:18:14.836 return that is true. Are there ways the world of 0:18:15.156 --> 0:18:19.876 returns might look significantly different in five years in terms 0:18:19.916 --> 0:18:22.196 of how we can return stuff, what it might cost, 0:18:22.476 --> 0:18:25.516 the technologies you know, on the on the back end, 0:18:26.116 --> 0:18:27.316 what might be different. 0:18:27.636 --> 0:18:29.756 In next three to five years out as we see it. 0:18:29.796 --> 0:18:33.556 And that's not a typical that's a very common consumer 0:18:34.796 --> 0:18:37.796 surprise factor, but they do not know the impact and 0:18:37.916 --> 0:18:42.676 the you know, the size of returns economy where we 0:18:42.756 --> 0:18:48.356 see that transparency is needed for creating that education and 0:18:48.396 --> 0:18:52.476 awareness what happens to returns when they are sent back. 0:18:52.716 --> 0:18:55.556 So consumers are being a little bit more mindful, you. 0:18:55.596 --> 0:18:57.876 Mean, companies are going to try and talk us out 0:18:57.956 --> 0:19:00.716 in a nice way of returning so much stuff. Companies 0:19:00.716 --> 0:19:02.596 is gonna be like, do you really really are you 0:19:02.676 --> 0:19:04.756 sure you want to return those shoes? You can't, but 0:19:04.836 --> 0:19:06.756 think about it, like, is that what you're saying? 0:19:07.476 --> 0:19:10.996 Maybe if consumers are aware of how much they buy, 0:19:11.156 --> 0:19:14.036 how much that goes into landfill, how much is actually 0:19:14.836 --> 0:19:18.756 circulated back in the economy, and that's where there has 0:19:18.836 --> 0:19:21.396 to be certain areas. I believe in next three to 0:19:21.436 --> 0:19:24.916 five years there will be more transparency. Education awareness is 0:19:24.996 --> 0:19:27.676 needed in this whole area of returns and exchanges. 0:19:28.356 --> 0:19:31.716 Well, I mean, if you really want to make a 0:19:31.716 --> 0:19:37.076 sustainability argument, the argument is buy less stuff. But I 0:19:37.076 --> 0:19:39.076 don't think the ecover sites are going to give us 0:19:39.076 --> 0:19:39.516 that one. 0:19:40.436 --> 0:19:45.276 Well, you are correct, but there are example is Patagonia. 0:19:45.636 --> 0:19:49.436 Yes, Patagonia is an atypical company, which, by the way, 0:19:49.596 --> 0:19:50.556 charges for return. 0:19:50.636 --> 0:19:54.796 That's right, you know, twenty five years ago Zappos was 0:19:54.916 --> 0:19:59.356 atypical and here we are. So we need more companies 0:19:59.396 --> 0:20:02.756 like Patagonian others who are atypical now to create that 0:20:02.956 --> 0:20:05.836 education and awareness in the market. Whether that changes the 0:20:05.956 --> 0:20:10.076 consumer sentiment or not in a we all will find 0:20:10.076 --> 0:20:12.276 out in five years time. But all I'm saying is 0:20:12.276 --> 0:20:14.996 that if you want to change that equation in a 0:20:15.036 --> 0:20:18.276 meaningful fashion, we need to have a much, you know, 0:20:19.196 --> 0:20:22.036 much broader discussion with consumer base. 0:20:22.476 --> 0:20:26.236 Interesting. So it's like the pendulum has been swinging for 0:20:26.356 --> 0:20:30.716 twenty years towards just return return, free returns, easy to return. 0:20:31.076 --> 0:20:33.556 You're saying the pendulum is already starting to swing the 0:20:33.636 --> 0:20:36.356 other way. Don't return so much stuff. Maybe we're going 0:20:36.436 --> 0:20:38.876 to charge you if you return your stuff. You should 0:20:38.956 --> 0:20:41.636 really think about the environmental impact of returning your stuff. 0:20:41.796 --> 0:20:44.236 The pendulum is going to keep swinging away, and we'll 0:20:45.236 --> 0:20:49.436 return less stuff in five years, perhaps a smaller percentage 0:20:49.436 --> 0:20:51.036 of the stuff today returns. 0:20:51.876 --> 0:20:54.116 And as you mentioned, there's a hidden cost of returns 0:20:54.116 --> 0:20:57.676 which is not transparent. So why won't we have a 0:20:57.716 --> 0:21:02.356 transparent conversation. You're getting a service and in exchange right now, 0:21:02.396 --> 0:21:05.556 there's a hidden fee of exchange. Why wouldn't we make 0:21:05.556 --> 0:21:08.156 it much more open and transparent about it. That's what 0:21:08.196 --> 0:21:10.476 I'm saying about on that dobby. 0:21:10.636 --> 0:21:13.476 So, so returns aren't free now. They're included in the price, 0:21:13.556 --> 0:21:15.476 and people who return a lot of stuff drive up 0:21:15.516 --> 0:21:18.076 the price for everybody. Exactly if you had to pay 0:21:18.076 --> 0:21:19.876 for returns, then it would be way more fair. 0:21:20.516 --> 0:21:23.836 That's right, right, So, and again is this the show. 0:21:23.676 --> 0:21:26.276 Where we're declaring Can we declare the end of the 0:21:26.316 --> 0:21:29.236 free returns era? Can we say that it's over? 0:21:29.596 --> 0:21:32.476 I would say for sure, twenty twenty three will be 0:21:32.556 --> 0:21:34.356 the end of free returns era? 0:21:34.596 --> 0:21:34.836 Wow? 0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:36.716 Yeah, absolutely, without a doubt. 0:21:37.276 --> 0:21:44.516 Okay, okay, we'll be back in a minute with the 0:21:44.596 --> 0:21:56.476 lightning round. Back to the show. Let's close with the 0:21:56.556 --> 0:21:59.716 lightning round. I'll let you go very soon. What's the 0:21:59.796 --> 0:22:01.036 last thing you returned? 0:22:02.596 --> 0:22:07.116