1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,479 Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern. 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 2: On Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: Business app, or listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts. 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 3: President Joe Biden speaking live in Vilnius, Lithuania, wrapping a 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 3: two day NATO summit with a bit of a victory 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 3: lap after securing the admission of Sweden to the Alliance, 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 3: the exact thing that Vladimir Putin did not want to see. 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 4: He was betty NATO would break. He thought our unity 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 4: would shatter at the first testing. He thought democratic leaders. 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: Would be weak. 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 4: But he thought wrong. Face of the threat. 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 3: As the President now heads to Finland for a summit 14 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 3: of Nordic nations, we seek perspective here on Bloomberg sound On. 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 3: I'm Joe Matthew in Washington, and we thank you for 16 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 3: joining us in conversation now with a real authority. Kurt Volker, 17 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 3: the former US Ambassador to NATO who also worked as 18 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 3: US Special Representative for Ukraine negotiations, is back with us 19 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 3: right now on Bloomberg. Mister ambassador, We welcome you back. 20 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 3: Was this NATO summit the success that President Biden just 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 3: made it out to be. 22 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 5: There were some successes, but I don't think it did 23 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 5: everything that it needed to do. I think getting Sweden 24 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 5: through that, the Turks relenting on their opposition to that, 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 5: and therefore bringing all of Northern Europe, Finland and Sweden 26 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 5: under the Alliance umbrella, that's a very good thing. That's 27 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 5: going to strengthen Alliance security on Ukraine. However, I think 28 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 5: that we didn't do as much as we could have done. 29 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 5: We gave very vague language about Ukraine becoming a member 30 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 5: in the future, without any clear commitment to that, any 31 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 5: new resolve behind that, and I think Putin's going to 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 5: look at that as a hesitation on NATO's part. 33 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin, watching all of this from Moscow, is thinking what. 34 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 5: Well, I think he's thinking that he should keep fighting 35 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 5: in Ukraine if he had gotten a signal that was 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 5: stronger that we are going to make sure that Ukraine 37 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 5: wins use the word victory, use the word winning, and 38 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 5: that they are going to be a member of NATO, 39 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 5: make no mistake about it, that is going to happen. 40 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 5: I think it would then a signal to Putin that 41 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 5: he's not going to succeed at this no matter how 42 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 5: much he fights, it's just not going to work. But instead, 43 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 5: by more hesitant language, I think it encourages Putin to 44 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 5: think he can still outlast the West. There's not a 45 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 5: real commitment there. If he just keeps going, he can 46 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 5: get a more territory, more land, force a negotiation for 47 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 5: Ukraine to give up things to Russia. So I think 48 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 5: he's encouraged. 49 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 3: That's discouraging, I'm sure for many to hear. And I'd 50 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 3: like to ask you a little bit more about the 51 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 3: change of tone that we heard from President Zelensky on 52 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 3: this idea of Ukraine eventually joining NATO. Here he is 53 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 3: from earlier today delegation. 54 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 6: He is bringing home significant security victory for the Ukraine, 55 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 6: for our country, for our people, for our children. It 56 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 6: opens for us absolutely new security of the unit is 57 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 6: and I think everyone who made it possible, Thank you, 58 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 6: dear Colice, thanks you, thanks Litenian and he installed them there, 59 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 6: Thank you very much. 60 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 3: Mister ambassador. That is a far cry from what we 61 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: heard yesterday, as President Zelensky tweeted that uncertainty is the 62 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 3: problem here and in fact a greater risk than joining NATO. 63 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 3: Who caught to President Zelensky overnight. 64 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that people probably did counsel him that 65 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 5: it's not in his own interest to be you know, 66 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 5: what would you say, biting the hand that needs you. You know, 67 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 5: he's dependent upon the US and all of these other 68 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 5: countries that are helping Ukraine. Don't just go after them 69 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 5: and criticize. Try to make the best out of it. 70 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 5: And I think also a recognition emotionally he responded one way, 71 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 5: but over time, as you think about it, there is 72 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 5: no other way that this works out. In the end, 73 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 5: Ukraine will become a member of NATO someday and also 74 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 5: a member of the EU. It's just that it's not 75 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 5: as clear today and not as much commitment today as 76 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 5: he wanted, but it's still going to end up going 77 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 5: the same direction. 78 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 3: Well, if you were still US ambassador to NATO, what 79 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 3: would have been your advice to President Biden? What should 80 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 3: have been the language used to not essentially motivate Vladimir Putin? 81 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: Right? 82 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 5: I think we say that we will. We are determined 83 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 5: to admit Ukraine to NATO as soon as it is 84 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 5: practical to do so. Clearly, no one's going to do 85 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 5: it while the fighting is going on because we don't 86 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 5: want NATO to join the war against Russia. But we 87 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 5: also need to say that we will do this as 88 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 5: soon as possible, which is much stronger than what we 89 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 5: came up with. There's a cent in the NATO communicate 90 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 5: which says that Ukraine will receive an invitation at the 91 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 5: time when all allies agree and when conditions are met. 92 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 5: And what that tells you is that allies don't agree now, 93 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 5: and it tells you that there are conditions that are 94 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 5: not met. Well, that is the wrong signal to sent 95 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 5: I think it needs to be we will bring them 96 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 5: in as soon as possible. We've made that decision. The 97 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 5: train is leading the station. As soon as it's practical, 98 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 5: we will acts that would have been a stronger signal. 99 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 3: Here's how Joe Biden framed it in the last twenty 100 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 3: four hours. 101 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 4: I hope we finally have put to bed the notion 102 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 4: about whether or not Ukraine is welcome and NATO. It's 103 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 4: going to happened. We're moving all move in the right direction. 104 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 4: I think it's just a matter of getting by the 105 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 4: next few months. 106 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 3: Here, just a matter of getting by the next few months. 107 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 3: Does he think the war's over in the next few months. 108 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 5: That's what it sounds like from what he said there. 109 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 3: And that'd be a heck of a hope development. 110 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 5: I hope that that's true. I hope that that's the case, 111 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 5: and I hope therefore we give them what they're asking for, 112 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 5: the long range artillery systems, fighter aircraft, help them get 113 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 5: it over within a few months. And I think maybe 114 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 5: that statement by President Biden was actually trying to compensate 115 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 5: for some of the weak language that the NATO communicate 116 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 5: put out. 117 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: How about that. 118 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 3: I want to ask you about Turkey, but just before 119 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 3: we get there, the idea of peace in Ukraine. I 120 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 3: don't want to be ironic here or disrespectful, but we 121 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 3: haven't talked about this in a long time. And whenever 122 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 3: it comes up in the White House briefing room and said, 123 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 3: well nothing for Ukraine without Ukraine, they will do this 124 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: on their time. But at what point, Ambassador, does the 125 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 3: US have to start pushing this idea? 126 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 5: Well, I think it's always tempting. Everybody wants there to 127 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 5: be peace, everybody wants a negotiation, but we want that 128 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 5: yet putin doesn't putin can, as Biden said in his speech, 129 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 5: just now he can end this war immediately just by 130 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 5: pulling his forces out of Ukraine. It's Putin that doesn't 131 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 5: want to negotiate a withdrawal of Russian forces from Ukraine, 132 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 5: giving Ukraine its territory back. So as long as we 133 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 5: are faced with that kind of Russia we can talk 134 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 5: about negotiations. All we want is simply not feasible. 135 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: Got it. 136 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 3: The idea of giving F sixteens to Turkey is something 137 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 3: that has been floating around this week and it looks 138 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 3: like it is absolutely going to happen. Can we assume 139 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: that that, in fact was the transaction? I know the 140 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 3: White House doesn't want to put it this way, but 141 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 3: the transaction that unlocked a Turkey to clear Sweden to 142 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: join NATO. 143 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 5: I think it's several things. I think, first off, Airduwan 144 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 5: arranging his re election successfully, he was using the ability 145 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 5: to stand up to Europe and stand up to Sweden, 146 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 5: stand against terrorism as devices to make him look strong 147 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 5: in a domestic context in Turkey, So that was part 148 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 5: of it. It was just using it as an electoral device. Second, 149 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 5: he did reach some agreements with Sweden on Sweden committing 150 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 5: to do a better job of making sure that its 151 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 5: territory is not exploited by the PKKA terrorist group that 152 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 5: operates in Turkey, and he got back from Sweden. And 153 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 5: then also the F sixteens where the US, as you know, 154 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 5: we've been holding back on fighter aircraft because of Turkey's 155 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 5: acquisition of a Russian air defense system. But I think 156 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 5: those are solvable problems, and I think it's in our 157 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 5: interest to have F sixteens with Turkey. So I think 158 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 5: we did that, and I understand why the administration doesn't 159 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 5: want to see it as a transaction. It probably just 160 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 5: was one more thing added to the mix that helped 161 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 5: it all come together, and it's in our own interest 162 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 5: to do it anyway. 163 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 3: How do you view Turkey you're the US ambassador to NATO. 164 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 3: How do you view Turkey as a player in this alliance? 165 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 3: What is how do you define this relationship? Is it 166 00:08:59,040 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 3: a trusted partner? 167 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 5: What I would say is that Turkey and the US 168 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 5: share the same strategic interests about ninety percent of the time. 169 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 5: If you look at a map and you stand in 170 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 5: Turkey and you look around, you've got the Black Sea, Ukraine, Crimea, Russia, Iran, Iraq, 171 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 5: Kurdish Region, Syria, Middle East, on most of these issues. 172 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 5: The Turkish interest in the US interests are very closely aligned. Now. 173 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 5: They are not a subservient country. It's not like we're 174 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 5: going to be able to tell them do this. 175 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: Or do that. 176 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 5: But if we work together with them, we'll find that 177 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 5: they are a very powerful ally. They're a large country, 178 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 5: they've got a capable military, They're in a critical part 179 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 5: of the world. Now, we have a lot of differences 180 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 5: with Turkey, particularly the way Erdoon runs the country domestically, 181 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 5: he's got a very heavy hand, but we ought to 182 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 5: be able to work with them on the strategic picture, 183 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 5: and we haven't done a good job at that for 184 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 5: years now. And I hope that what we've seen now 185 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 5: with the six scene, with Turkey approving Sweden, with Turkey 186 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 5: saying that they want to see Ukraine and NATO, maybe 187 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 5: we'll start to turn a corner. 188 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 3: In a better place. How does that ninety percent compare 189 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 3: to other nations? 190 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: Is that? 191 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 3: What's the metric here? How should our listeners understand that perspective? 192 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 5: You know, you can get to the very bottom of 193 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 5: the list by jumping over to. 194 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 3: Iran okay, or I mean within NATO, Within NATO, if 195 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 3: we agree ninety percent of the time. 196 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 5: With Turkey, i'd say it. You know, in some cases, 197 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 5: you know, we're one hundred percent aligned with our allies. 198 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 5: I'd say that is largely the case with the UK, 199 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 5: with Canada, the Netherlands. There are some cases where we 200 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 5: do have some differences, not that many. But even if 201 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 5: we do have some differences with our allies, it's more 202 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 5: important that we focus on the big picture and work 203 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 5: together and the one big thing, and when we're talking 204 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 5: about NATO, it is about the security and defense of 205 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 5: Europe and there I don't think there's any daylight between 206 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 5: any of the NATO allies on the idea that an 207 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 5: attack on one has to be seen as an attack 208 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 5: on all and we respond to that in order to 209 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 5: ensure the security for everybody. I think that's the key 210 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 5: thing about NATO, and I think everybody's committed to that. 211 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 3: How about Victor Orbin, how much do we agree with 212 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 3: when it comes to Hungary. 213 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, we have a lot of differences now 214 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 5: with the way that he is running Hungary and his 215 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 5: taking advantage of being in a safe and prosperous position 216 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 5: as a NATO and EU member to do deals with 217 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 5: Russia and do deals with China, so you have a 218 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 5: lot of difficulty with that right now. But when it 219 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 5: comes to defense of the NATO territory, Hungary is fully committed, 220 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 5: and indeed they've been taking part in air placing missions 221 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 5: and stationing of forces in the Baltic States to demonstrate 222 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 5: that they're part of NATO security. 223 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: Mister ambassador, great to have you today. We've been looking 224 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 3: forward to the conversation all week. Kurt Volker, the former 225 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 3: US Ambassador to NATO who also served as US Special 226 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 3: Representative for Ukraine negotiations. We're bringing you insights from a 227 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 3: true authority here following the speech from President Biden. He 228 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 3: just wrapped in Vilnius and is now headed to Finland 229 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 3: later today for a summit of Nordic nations. Let's assemble 230 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 3: our panel for their take. Jeanie Shanzano and Rick Davis 231 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 3: the other two voices you need to hear from today 232 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 3: Bloomberg Politics contributors. Rick, you worked with ambassador at Volker 233 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 3: for some time. I think you still might at the 234 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 3: McCain Institute. With that said, do you agree with him 235 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 3: in his take here? Did Joe Biden have a mic 236 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 3: drop moment here or not? 237 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 7: Yeah? 238 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 8: I think Joe Biden had a good week. We set 239 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 8: up the week by saying we thought a big success 240 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 8: would be Sweden coming in, and it did. I do 241 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 8: think the flying the ointment was the reaction initially by 242 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 8: Zelenski that you know, he didn't get what he wanted. 243 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 8: I mean, even if he didn't get what he wanted, 244 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 8: why do you actually say. 245 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: That, right? 246 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 8: I mean, you cheer the fact that you're embraced by 247 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 8: NATO and that you're getting stronger every day, and that 248 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 8: you're going to take this fight with the group to Putin. 249 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 8: You're really talking to Vladimir Putin at that point, right, 250 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 8: and the last thing you want to do is undermine NATO. 251 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 8: So even if he didn't get what he wanted, I mean, 252 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 8: like the fact that he's now spun on a dime 253 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 8: and is thanking his NATO partners is what he should 254 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 8: have said to begin with. I mean, like, we love them, 255 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 8: He's doing incredible work and amazing sacrifice, but like this 256 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 8: is how this game is played. So I think he's 257 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 8: become a great leader, but he needs to have this 258 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 8: international stage figured out a little bit better. 259 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, the line from President Zelenski, I believe yesterday Jani 260 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 3: was uncertainty equals weakness and a very different tone today. 261 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 3: Should he have sounded like this first or is that 262 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 3: a calculation on his part? 263 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 9: He should have sounded like this first. You know, I 264 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 9: think we can all understand his frustration. There is no 265 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 9: question of what a great leader he has been for 266 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 9: his country and how he is fighting as hard as 267 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 9: he can to get them what they need. That said, 268 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 9: I think the ambassador is one thousand percent right when 269 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 9: he says, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. 270 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,719 Speaker 9: We are talking from the US alone forty billion dollars munitions. 271 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 9: You know, you'd never seen that lineup of NATO leaders 272 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 9: that we saw on that stage and the full throated 273 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 9: support for Ukraine. You know, people have said, and I 274 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 9: think this is true, there is no country that is 275 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 9: not in NATO that has done as well as Ukraine has. 276 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 9: So he does have to be very careful about that. 277 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 9: He seems to have understood that in his more recent remarks, 278 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 9: and I think that is critically important. I also think 279 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 9: there's something else not being said here, which is the 280 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 9: fact that you know, we are all talking, and we're 281 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 9: here it all the time in DC and elsewhere. There's 282 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 9: going to have to be a diplomatic resolution to this thing. 283 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 9: Russia is not going to sign off on that if 284 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 9: Ukraine is going to be in NATO, and so the 285 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 9: US and NATO allies are reluctant to say that at 286 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 9: this point, and Zolenski, on the other hand, is saying, 287 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 9: if we don't get in now, we're never going to 288 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 9: get in. So that is something they want to keep 289 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 9: open for negotiation from NATO's part. But for Zolenzi, of course, 290 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 9: that may be a sign that this is never going 291 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 9: to happen if we have to negotiate our way out 292 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 9: of this. And so there is a big sticking point 293 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 9: and it's going to have to be negotiated out, and 294 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 9: it's not something that he is going to welcome. He's 295 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 9: worried about the outcome, and righty should be. 296 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 3: Did you agree with Ambassador vulkar Rick that we actually 297 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 3: might have encouraged Vladimir Putin here or are there shades 298 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 3: of membership? Could could NATO do more to formally pledge 299 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 3: military aid to Ukraine or have we already done what 300 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 3: can be done in this case? 301 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 8: No, I absolutely agree with Ambassador Volker. I think that 302 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 8: we missed an opportunity to just lock down Ukraine as 303 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 8: a free country. I mean slightly critical of President Zelenski 304 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 8: for sort of spitting a bid on the news, but 305 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 8: the reality is he was just reacting to what I 306 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 8: think universally people see as a week stand by NATO 307 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 8: and a week's week response by Biden. I mean, this 308 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 8: could have been much more than it turned out to be. 309 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 8: Even if there are hesitations, as ambassad Volker said, even 310 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 8: if there are conditions that need to be met and 311 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 8: allies who aren't in total agreement, you don't say that 312 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 8: you find a very strong message because in this case, 313 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 8: in this case alone, you're sending a message to Vladimir 314 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 8: Putin and no one else. NATO is already in agreement. 315 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 8: What's going to happen here, Ukraine is already in agreement? 316 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 8: What's going to happen here? Ultimately, the only guy who 317 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 8: you are talking to at this point is Vladimir Putin. 318 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 8: And the notion that somehow will figure it out later 319 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 8: is exactly what Vladimir Putin wanted to hear. He'll just 320 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 8: keep fighting until there is no more Ukraine. If this 321 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 8: is the case, not the no more Russian military, that's right, Well, Look, 322 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 8: there are more Russian military units that can be put 323 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 8: on the field than Ukrainian and the idea that we're 324 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 8: having World War One tactics in the twenty first century 325 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 8: actually plays to Putin's strength. I mean, until we actually 326 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 8: change that, you know, it's still advantaged Putin on this thing. 327 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 8: So you know, I think I think it's a missed opportunity. 328 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 8: But that's I mean, like that's just half the speech today. 329 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 8: I mean, Biden was really talking a lot to the 330 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 8: American voter today in this speech. Who would have thought 331 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 8: he'd got to NATO and talk about climate, talk about 332 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 8: supply chain issues. I mean, like there was a completely 333 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 8: sort of one two punch here where it's one, I'm 334 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,479 Speaker 8: going to cover the NATO front in Ukraine, and then 335 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 8: the other front, I'm gonna, you know, talk to people 336 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 8: about what we need to do about my re election. 337 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 3: Well let's get into that for a minute, because I 338 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: think we've already established here on this program that this 339 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 3: is the one thing, this is the most envious thing, 340 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 3: the most envious position that the president could put other 341 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 3: presidential contenders in here watching him work the world stage 342 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 3: like this genie, listen to the victory lap as we 343 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 3: put it on the terminal just a short time ago. 344 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 4: Hi, the great honors United States Senator of Champion, Lithuania 345 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 4: and other Balding Station joined NATO in two thousand and four. 346 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 4: Wasn't I brilliant doing that? 347 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 3: Wasn't I brilliant doing that? Genie? This is a This 348 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 3: is a president who is feeling emboldened. What are the 349 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: other candidates think watching this? 350 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 7: You know? And right he should. 351 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 9: This was a I think, a real success trip for 352 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 9: Joe Biden. He is in sharp contrast to the number 353 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 9: one candidate on the other side, Donald Trump, who wanted 354 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 9: to withdraw from NATO not that long ago. You hear 355 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 9: people around the word world concerned as to the outcome 356 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 9: of the twenty four election, particularly as it concerns are 357 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 9: funding for Ukraine. I couldn't agree more with Rick that 358 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 9: he was speaking to an American audience several times during 359 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 9: this trip, not just talking about supply chains, but also 360 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 9: as he confronts a real threat from Republicans attempting to 361 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 9: defund support for Ukraine. We saw Marjorie Taylor Green and 362 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 9: others introducing these amendments, these resolutions. We've heard McCarthy say 363 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 9: he's gonna stand strong against that, except he wants to 364 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 9: go through regular order. So this is a very real 365 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 9: challenge for Americans and the domestic front and Joe Biden, 366 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 9: we shouldn't forget. In the twenty twenty campaign, he said 367 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 9: this is a choice between democracy and autocracy. He feels 368 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 9: like the war in Ukraine has underscored what he saw 369 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 9: coming out of this and he is going to keep 370 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 9: sticking with that as he goes into twenty twenty. But 371 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 9: he's gotto, of course, or keep American support amongst progressives 372 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 9: on the left and conservatives on the right in terms 373 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 9: of funding out of Congress, and that is going to 374 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 9: be a challenge because Americans feel maybe forty billion is 375 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 9: enough in many cases. 376 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 3: Genie mentions Marjorie Taylor Green, who offered an amendment to 377 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 3: the NDAA, the National Defense Authorization Act, that was aimed 378 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 3: squarely at NATO and this summit. 379 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 10: Here's she Amendment number six directs the president to withdraw 380 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 10: the US from NATO. My amendment would direct the president 381 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 10: withdrawal from NATO. They are not a reliable partner whose 382 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 10: defense spending should be paid for by American citizens. 383 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 3: The genterlewoman from Georgia says it's time to withdraw from NATO. Rick, 384 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 3: I know you don't see Marjorie Taylor Green. I don't 385 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 3: think anyone sees her is speaking for the Republican Party. 386 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 3: But I was going to ask you if Donald Trump 387 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 3: or Ronda Santis might show up in Europe or somewhere 388 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 3: on the international stage to sort of match Joe Biden here. 389 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 3: But maybe that's the exact opposite of what a Republican 390 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 3: candidate wants to do right now. 391 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 8: Yeah, I don't think it's an exact opposite. I think 392 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 8: that this has historically been a space that Republicans have occupied, 393 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 8: the support for NATO and engagement around the world. And 394 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 8: I think Marjorie Taylor Green just showed that she is 395 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 8: actually not a relevant or serious person with this kind 396 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 8: of showboating. And I would think the real person who's 397 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 8: on the spot here is the speaker who calls Marjorie 398 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 8: Taylor Green his advisor, and I think it's time for 399 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 8: him to walk out and say I totally disagree with 400 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 8: Marjorie Taylor Green because this is not even close to 401 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 8: Republican doctrine when it comes to support for NATO and 402 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 8: the strength of our country in NATO. 403 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 3: Of course, we'll remember the whole conversation that Donald Trump 404 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 3: had about nations paying their fair share. He even threatens 405 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 3: himself to withdraw from NATO, and it'll be interesting to 406 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: see how that's reflected on the campaign trail going forward. 407 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 3: We'll keep our eyes, I guess on social media for 408 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 3: more on that. Genie shan Zato and Rick Davis, Bloomberg 409 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 3: Politics contributors. Our signature panel on an Historic Day as 410 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 3: NATO includes this two day summit the President heading now 411 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 3: for Finland. As we mentioned, it's been a big day 412 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 3: here inside the nation's capital as well, and not a 413 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 3: very fun one for the head of the FBI, grilled 414 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 3: on Capitol Hill. We'll talk more about that ahead with 415 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 3: Rick and Jeannie. You're listening to The Bloomberg Sound on podcast. 416 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 3: Catch the program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, 417 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 3: the tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and. 418 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: The Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on 419 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say 420 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 421 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 3: A couple of Maylock's moments today for Christopher Ray, as 422 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 3: the FBI director testifies before the House Judiciary Committee, the 423 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 3: first time he's doing so today since Republicans took control 424 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 3: of the House. Republicans who are not fans of Ray 425 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 3: or his FBI answering questions and responding to accusations today 426 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 3: of colluding with the Biden administration. 427 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 11: You seem deeply uncurious about it, don't you? Almost suspiciously 428 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 11: on curious? Are you protecting the Bidens? 429 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 12: Absolutely not. 430 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 11: The You won't answer the question about whether or not 431 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 11: that's a shakedown, and everybody knows why you won't answer it. 432 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 3: Spending quite some time defending the work of his department, 433 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 3: citing efforts to get violent criminals off the streets, investigating cartels, 434 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 3: the traffic fentanyl not good enough for many of the 435 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 3: members on the panel today. Let's reassemble our panel for 436 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 3: insights Jennie Shanzano and Rick Davis Bloomberg Politics contributors. 437 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 5: Rick. 438 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: Republicans, led by Jim Jordan in this case, have a 439 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 3: real chip on their shoulder when it comes to the 440 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 3: FBI and Christopher Wray. They believe that the federal government 441 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 3: is weaponizing agencies like the FBI to cover up for 442 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: Joe Biden and to go after folks like Donald Trump. 443 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 3: For instance, conservatives who are outspoken. Does this hearing lead 444 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 3: to anything? Some are threatening to defund the FBI. 445 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 446 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 8: I think that this has been a real showboat session today. 447 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 8: Jim Jordan has been campaigning on this for a long time, 448 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 8: long before this session of Congress. Uh, and now he 449 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 8: has the you know, rank uh to be able to 450 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 8: pull people like the FBI director in and and grill 451 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 8: them on these issues. But the reality is, you know, 452 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 8: there is not likely to be any real uh fire 453 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 8: where the smoke is today. 454 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 12: Uh. 455 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 8: The FBI, they make mistakes, They've they're not been perfect. 456 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 8: I actually was shocked that they didn't spend more time 457 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 8: on talking about the three hundred thousand times the FBA 458 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 8: misused foreign databases. You know that that to me is 459 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 8: a bigger issue than you know, some of the school 460 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 8: board threats and things that were brought up today at nauseum. 461 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: Uh. 462 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 8: But this has been a theme of the MAGA, right uh, 463 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 8: you know since Ronald since Donald Trump took office, and 464 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 8: so uh, I think there's really nothing new here other 465 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 8: than the fact that they had you know, the UH 466 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 8: director in place to to launch their attacks. They really 467 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 8: didn't care what he said. It was really just a 468 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 8: one way you know, uh press machine today. 469 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 3: So I guess this is an airing of Grievance's genie. 470 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 3: It's like a festive us for the rest of us. 471 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 3: But we keep coming back to stories like that of 472 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: Mark Howck. The FBI arrest of this anti abortion activist 473 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 3: in the Philadelphia area is accused of shoving a seventy 474 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 3: two year old volunteer outside of Planned Parenthood clinic and 475 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 3: has become kind of a symbol for everything that we're 476 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 3: talking about here. His defense team says his arrest was 477 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 3: not above board, and Congressman Chip Roy went at it 478 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 3: with Christopher Ray on this issue. 479 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 13: Listen, your job is to protect the American people from 480 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 13: tyrannical FBI storming the home of an American family. 481 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 12: I could not disagree more with your description of the 482 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 12: FBI is tyrannical, and I. 483 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 13: Don't believe it TYRANNICALI agents were a part of storming 484 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 13: a father's home and the gentleman suburban Philadelphia. 485 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 12: I'm the gentleman. Time the gentleman's expired witnessmen respond and 486 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 12: then we'll move to our next witness. Respectful reponse. Here, 487 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 12: they did not storm his house. They came to his door. 488 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 12: They knocked on his door and identified himself. They asked 489 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 12: him to exit. He did without incident. Got to wait 490 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 12: for it whenever our agents, well not at gunpoint, whenever 491 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 12: our agents conduct an arrest. Our agents are armed virtually 492 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 12: all the time, as you may remember from your own 493 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 12: experience as a prosecutor. 494 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 3: So a couple of things your genie one Jim Jordan 495 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 3: keeping his members on time despite his interests, but also 496 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 3: the way Christopher Ray is composing himself today. He was 497 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 3: clearly well prepared for this, and he knew what a 498 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 3: lot of the questions and accusations would involve. Did he 499 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 3: do a good job disarming? If I dare use that word, 500 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 3: Chip Roy, no. 501 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 9: Pun intended, Joe Matthews, you try, you know, I think 502 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 9: he did. I was listening to this earlier as long 503 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 9: as I could, And I think the one thing that 504 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 9: Ray is doing is what you always sort of expect people, 505 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 9: or hope people will do when they know that they're 506 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 9: as Rick just rightly described attempts by lawmakers to make 507 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 9: a political point and get a thirty second clip on 508 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 9: the air, is you try not to get roped into 509 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 9: some kind of emotional display keep your cool, keep calm, 510 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 9: if I dare say, be as boring as possible as 511 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 9: probably the watchwords, so you don't make the evening news. 512 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 7: And I'm not saying Chris Ray is boring. I don't 513 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 7: think that. But I do think he's done a good job. 514 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: You know. 515 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 9: I think he went in there with a couple of ideas. 516 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 9: One was that he was going to sort of try 517 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 9: to refocus their energy and their their sort of look 518 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 9: at the FBI, sort of like you would do with 519 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 9: a child, take your eye off what you want there 520 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 9: and look over here at this. And so he tried 521 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 9: to talk about all the things that the FBI has 522 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 9: done right that we can all get behind. And you know, 523 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 9: the other thing to keep in mind about Chris Ray, 524 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 9: and we heard this from Ken Buck, appointed by Donald 525 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 9: Trump in twenty seventeen. Ken Buck said, I hope you're 526 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 9: still a registered Republican. You know, this is somebody who 527 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 9: is not normally at odds with these folks, and you know, 528 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 9: he is under fire as a stand and for the 529 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 9: Biden administration despite his party identification, and the fellow who 530 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 9: appointed him, the fact that he still sits there has 531 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 9: gotten their aire and he is being used to attack them, 532 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 9: And I would just add they are also going after 533 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 9: the salary of these folks. If they can't defund the FBI, 534 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 9: they want to take away his salary. They could do it, 535 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 9: but we're new headquarters for the new headquarters. 536 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 7: That's going to move to Alabama apparently, Yeah, I. 537 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 3: Heard something about that, as Tommy Tubberville where the FBI 538 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 3: is going. Rick Davis, you have worked to prepare the 539 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 3: highest level members of the political world, holders of elected office, 540 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: other government officials for testimony like we're seeing today. How's 541 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 3: he doing? 542 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 8: Yeah, Look, I mean this was a pretty rough environment. 543 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 8: I mean maybe the roughest you can get into. And look, 544 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 8: I mean I think you do tell them that in 545 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 8: many cases, and in this case maybe all the cases, 546 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 8: it's really not what you have to say, it's what 547 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 8: these members want to say to get on the record 548 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 8: and to make news. Exactly what we're doing, right, we're 549 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 8: reporting these you know, attacks on him, and very little 550 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 8: of it is what he said in response, and so 551 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 8: I think, you know, he did a good job of 552 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 8: actually not making any news himself. I can't think of 553 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 8: a thing that happened in the hearing that he said 554 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 8: that's newsworthy. 555 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 3: Uh. 556 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 8: And and you know, kudos to the FBI for preparing 557 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 8: him well, Uh in a in a very difficult environment. 558 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 8: But it is disappointment because the Judiciary Committee is one 559 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 8: of those committees that you actually expect to conduct themselves, 560 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 8: you know, in a pretty honorable fashion. And and and 561 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 8: that was not what happened today. This was just complete 562 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 8: grand standing. There's nothing been accomplished. None of these conversations 563 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 8: resulted in positive legislative or policy. 564 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: Uh. 565 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 8: Suggestions that you know other than you know, as as 566 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 8: Genie said, move in the FBI to Alabama. 567 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 3: Right right, Rick Davis, Genie Shanzeno a great dive into 568 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 3: this hearing. Coming up. Some final thoughts from our signature panel. 569 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 3: As Senator Ted Cruz says he wants to save you 570 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 3: from your refrigerator, I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. This is Bloomberg. 571 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us 572 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: live weekdays at. 573 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 2: One Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and 574 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 2: the Bloomberg Business app, or listen on demand wherever you 575 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: get your podcasts. 576 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 3: Senator Ted Cruz, of course, Republican from Texas, is looking 577 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 3: out for you, specifically in the kitchen. It wants to 578 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 3: make sure that you know that your refrigerator may be 579 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 3: spying on. 580 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 14: You when you're buying a new refrigerator. Yeah, you don't 581 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 14: expect your fridge to record you or listen to you, 582 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,479 Speaker 14: or spy on you without your knowledge. 583 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 3: No, I don't not to mention the air frier. 584 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 14: I don't think the American people want their air fryer 585 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 14: spying on them, and at a minimum, they have a 586 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 14: right to know if they're air fryer, Yeah, is spying 587 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 14: on them. 588 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 3: You do have an air fryer, right, We reassembled a 589 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 3: panel Jeanie Schanzano and Rick Davis with us here. Ted Cruz, 590 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 3: by the way, is getting together with a Democrat, Maria 591 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 3: Cantwell of Washington to introduce legislation intended to at least 592 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 3: make Americans aware the potential for spying when they purchase 593 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 3: home Appliance's genie. It's the Internet of things. We want 594 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 3: our appliances to talk, but not spy on us. As 595 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 3: the senator placing his fear in the right spot, I am. 596 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 9: So sad Joe, because I want to buy an air 597 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 9: frar and he has scared me. Off of this. Now, 598 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 9: I had no idea they were spying, you know. And 599 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 9: did you hear the reference to the Jetsons. He's got 600 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 9: to get into the twenty twenties. People don't remember the 601 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 9: Jetsons if they're under a certain age. 602 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 7: That said, I do. 603 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 9: Support the legislation let people know if they're being spied 604 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 9: on in their homes. I would like to know, because again, 605 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 9: I need an air friar and I didn't think it 606 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 9: was going to. 607 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 7: Spy on me. 608 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 13: You know. 609 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 3: There is a serious side of this rick, that the 610 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 3: level of data scraping going on, the spying going on. 611 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 3: But I have to laugh. You worry about the fridge 612 00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 3: looking at you because you know people have a fridge 613 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 3: on the Wi Fi now, But we're all happy to 614 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 3: plug an Alexa at home and have them spy on 615 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 3: us by our own choice. 616 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 8: Yeah, this is one area I think I can agree 617 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 8: one hundred percent with Ted Cruz. And can we all 618 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 8: agree that there's a no fly zone on electronics in 619 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 8: the bathroom. 620 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm with you there, Geenie. I'd go ahead and 621 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 3: get the air fier. I think the senators are looking 622 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 3: out for This is your government at work, right. 623 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 9: It is and I have no outlets in the bathroom. 624 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 9: I don't know, no refrigerators, nothing, Rick, I don't know 625 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 9: what you're doing. 626 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 7: I have nothing there. It's a free zone. 627 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 3: Well, this is all really good for us to know. 628 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 3: We thank you Rick and Jeanie Blueberg Politics contributors, our 629 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 3: signature panel, the best in the business. I'm Joe Matthew 630 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 3: in Washington and we are keeping things up to date 631 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 3: here with the jetson. Hayley Lives is on the way 632 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 3: in next because we haven't even talked about inflation yet. 633 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 3: It's CPI day and on any other day would be 634 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 3: likely our bleed story right. But President Biden making his 635 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 3: way to the Nordic Summit, will be following his travels 636 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 3: as well on the fastest show in politics. 637 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 13: Danks Right. 638 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to the sound on podcast. Make sure 639 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 3: to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, and 640 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 3: anywhere else you get your podcasts, And you can find 641 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 3: us live every weekday from Washington, DC at one pm 642 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 3: Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com.