1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 2: Let me tell you we have a new star. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 3: A star is born Elon mars Juson Kennemy. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 4: He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 3: I feel for the guy. I would say ninety eight 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 3: percent really appreciate what he does. 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 4: But those two percent that are nasty, they are I'll 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 4: pay in full post. 10 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 5: We are meant for great things in the United States 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 5: of America, and Elon reminds. 12 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 6: Us of that we don't have a fourth branch of 13 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 6: governments called Elon Musk. 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 5: Welcome to Elon Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 15 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: It's Tuesday, May thirteenth. 16 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 5: I'm Max Chafkin, and I'm sitting here with Bloomberg's Elon 17 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 5: Musk reporter Dana Hall. 18 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: Hey, Dana, Hey, Max. All right, so today's show's going 19 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: to be a little different. 20 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 5: You and I have an interview with Matt Lebrot, who 21 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 5: is a former manager in Tesla's sales operation who made 22 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 5: quite the splash last week. Dana, can you just give 23 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 5: us a sense of what happened, why we're talking to Matt. 24 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, so Matt is kind of it's kind of a 25 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 4: crazy story. In late April, he posted an anonymous letter 26 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 4: Tesla employees against Elon in which he basically said that 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 4: it was time to say the quiet part out loud 28 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 4: and talked a lot about the brand destruction because of 29 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 4: Elon's behavior. Two days later, he was fired, and now 30 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 4: he has kind of gone wide. Business Insider did a 31 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 4: profile of him, he has posted on LinkedIn, and he 32 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 4: has a really interesting story to tell. I mean, is 33 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 4: it is rare for someone who worked for Tesla for 34 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 4: as long as he did to kind of go so 35 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 4: publicly against the CEO of the company. 36 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:51,559 Speaker 2: Yeah. 37 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 5: And this letter, which was originally posted on website Matt 38 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 5: made Tesla employees against Elon dot Com. 39 00:01:58,760 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: It's gone everywhere. 40 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 5: And I'm really excited about this conversation because we've been 41 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 5: talking really for months about the potential brand damage that 42 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 5: Elon Musk's you know, political activities have caused, and Matt, 43 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 5: I think has a unique perspective. We're gonna hear new things, 44 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 5: things that I think are going to be somewhat revelatory 45 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 5: for listeners in that conversation. But before we get there, 46 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 5: Dana We got to run through some of the Elon 47 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 5: Musk news this week because there's a lot going on. 48 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 5: As we pod on Tuesday morning, He's in Saudi Arabia. 49 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 5: Remember our friend of Pod, Kurt Wagner, predicted a boy's trip. 50 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 5: It appears that the boy's trip it's on. 51 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 4: It's on, and I believe that Sam Malton is on 52 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 4: this trip as well, So it's kind of like a 53 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 4: strange bedfellows trip in the in the Saudi Arabian desert. 54 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 4: I have not been able to keep up with what 55 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 4: exactly Elon is saying, but I saw something cross the 56 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 4: transom about Optimists possibly being displayed or like a demo 57 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 4: of Optimists to Trump and NBS. So the other thing 58 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 4: worth noting is that this is Elon Musk's for trip 59 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 4: abroad since inauguration, So you know, he's going on this 60 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 4: kind of tour of the Middle East with Trump, the 61 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 4: first time he's kind of stepped away from the US 62 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 4: since an inauguration. 63 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 5: Well, an optimist would make a certain sense. I mean, 64 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 5: it seems like part of the reason for Elon Musk 65 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 5: doing this beyond just getting to hang out with with 66 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 5: his pals and perhaps you know, squashed the beat with 67 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 5: Sam Altman is money because you know Xai is trying 68 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 5: to raise money. MBS, of course is good for it. 69 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 5: He is a is a major tech investor, and there 70 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 5: have been a lot of Saudi backed investments in Ai. 71 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: Let's go all the way back to April. 72 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 5: Twenty second, the Tesla earnings call Dana, because there's a moment. 73 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 5: We didn't touch on this, I think at all in 74 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 5: our earning conversation. But there was a little good news 75 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 5: in that call. 76 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: And let's let's first listen to the clip. 77 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 6: Let's he was respected energy. The energy business is doing 78 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 6: very well. The Mega pack is that nables Tony companies 79 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 6: to output far more total energy then would otherwise. 80 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,839 Speaker 5: Good case the Mega Pack now that we we learned 81 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 5: during the earnings call that the sales are are up. 82 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: You've been talking about this as long as I can. 83 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: I love I love the I love the Mega Pack 84 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: as a product. 85 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 4: I know everyone is like, oh god, Dana and her 86 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 4: Mega packs, but the Mega pack is cool, Like we. 87 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: Can you explain what it is before. 88 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 5: I'm all for the love letter, but first let's like 89 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 5: give us a little context and try to if you 90 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 5: wouldn't mind, like just translating what Elon Musk just said into. 91 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 4: Sure, I mean, frankly kind of looks like a big, 92 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 4: big refrigerator or like a steel box. But it's basically 93 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 4: you know, so, Tesla has two business units. There's the 94 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 4: car division and there's Energy. And the Energy division includes 95 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 4: you know, the solar roof, the power wall, which is 96 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 4: like the home battery that you put in your house 97 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 4: in case there's like a hurricane or a power outage 98 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 4: or whatever. And then there's the Mega pack, which is 99 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 4: Tesla's utility scale offering to utilities, and these things are 100 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 4: huge and banks of them are installed all over the 101 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 4: world North America, Europe, Australia, and they really are like 102 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 4: keyed to helping renewables come on to the grid. So, 103 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 4: you know, the sun doesn't always shine, it's not always windy, 104 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 4: but if you want to be able to store energy 105 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 4: and then be able to dispatch it back to the 106 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 4: grid during peak demand times, storage is key. And there 107 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 4: are a lot of big players in the energy storage 108 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 4: market and Tesla is one of them. But as I 109 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 4: reported recently, what was missing from that Ernie's call was 110 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 4: the fact that one of the big customers of the 111 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 4: Megapack is Xai, Elon's Ai company, and so Xai has 112 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 4: this supercomputer called Colossus good name, yeah, good name, big 113 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 4: data center in Memphis, Tennessee. That's gotten under a lot 114 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 4: of fire from environmental and racial justice groups because at 115 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 4: the moment they were using like gas fired generators to 116 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 4: kind of keep this plant up and running. 117 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: And now what's happening. 118 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 4: Is they are adding megapacks to this installation, which is 119 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 4: more energy efficient, and then they can kind of get 120 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 4: rid of the gas generators. But it's just another example 121 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 4: of you know, all of Elon's companies overlap, and one 122 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 4: company sells a product to another. And this was the 123 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 4: first time that I had seen, you know, in a filing, 124 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 4: like any notice of Xai buying megapas as a customer 125 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 4: to the tude of like two hundred and thirty million 126 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 4: dollars worth. 127 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: How much of the total megapax sales is that? I mean? 128 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 5: Is this like, is is the whole megapac thing basically 129 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 5: like a sham? It's just Elon musk moving money from 130 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 5: one company to another. 131 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 4: No, because they actually do sell megapacks to a lot 132 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 4: of utilities around the world, like Pgene Southern California Edison. 133 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 4: I mean, they have a robust pipeline of sales. 134 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 5: Okay, let's move on to the next story that I 135 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 5: wanted to bring up, which is the news uh in 136 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 5: the New York Times that the Federal Railroad Administration, this 137 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 5: is the part of the government that handles the nation's 138 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 5: rail infrastructure, is meeting with the boring company, Elon Musk's 139 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 5: tunneling venture about a possible bl eight point five billion 140 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 5: dollar tunnel. You know, Dan, I was interested in this 141 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 5: because there's been this narrative of Elon Musk kind of 142 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 5: withdrawing from Washington. 143 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: He's back to his companies. 144 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 5: Right and and I think there there may be some 145 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 5: truth to that, but as we've discussed, he's obviously still 146 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 5: spending a lot of time with Donald Trump. I mean, 147 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 5: they're in Saudi Arabia right now. But also I think 148 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 5: the next phase of this, as we as maybe doge 149 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 5: becomes less in the sort of center of the news 150 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 5: and and they're less focused on cutting or whatever, is 151 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 5: that they're gonna be contracts and this, and that Elon 152 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 5: Musk is going to be trying to get talk the 153 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 5: US government out of billions and billions of dollars, and 154 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 5: this Boring Company thing is is probably just you know, 155 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 5: the first of several of reports like this that we're 156 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 5: gonna hear. 157 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting because of all of the companies at 158 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 4: Elon's empire, the Boring Company is like the least successful company. 159 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 4: I think that's bareness. 160 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: To say that. 161 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 5: The two or three or four, I'm not sure how 162 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 5: many miles of tunnels in Las Vegas that you can 163 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 5: drive a car through are not an impressive monument to 164 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 5: you know, technological innovation. 165 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: You've been to the one in Las Vegas. 166 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 4: I have not, But I mean of all of the 167 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 4: companies like the Boring Company, to me, I always thought 168 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 4: that the whole conceit of boring was let's figure out 169 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 4: how to perfect tunneling so that we can eventually like 170 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 4: settle Mars, where you're gonna need tunnels because there's no atmosphere. 171 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 4: And there's been a lot of news reports about boring, 172 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 4: like bidding or talking about building tunnels and all kinds 173 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 4: of crazy places, But the Las Vegas one is the 174 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 4: only one that actually exists that I'm aware of. 175 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 5: I've done a lot of reporting on the Boring Company, 176 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 5: and I think you're probably right that there's some truth 177 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 5: and like in the back of Elon Musk's mind, yeah, sure, 178 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 5: mars whatever. But like, really the genesis the Boring Company was, 179 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 5: I want to get some infrastructure contracts out of Donald Trump. 180 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 5: And the Boring Company was founded, you know, just at 181 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 5: the beginning of the Trump administration, back when Steve Bannon 182 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 5: was talking about you know, infrastructure and so on, and 183 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 5: it was at the time, like as I understood it, 184 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 5: I mean, like a pretty transparent play to kind of 185 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 5: get in on that. Of course, Elon Musk is really 186 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 5: good at that. He's good at figuring out sort of 187 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 5: next generation solutions to problems that the government has, such 188 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 5: as rocket launches. But as you say, like the the 189 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 5: track record. 190 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 2: Isn't great, I mean we're not. 191 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 5: We're talking about you can go from the Westgate in 192 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 5: Las Vegas to the Convention Center. That's that's a trip 193 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 5: you can also make on foot, but of course you 194 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 5: can get in a tunnel. And this would be on 195 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 5: like a whole other level if they if they were 196 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 5: to win this contract. 197 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 4: Amtrak has been a target of the Trump administration for 198 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 4: quite a while. I mean, Musk has also taken put 199 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 4: shots at Amtrak. I think all of us who take 200 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 4: Amtrak could agree that, like, there are some inefficiencies in 201 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 4: the system, but it's not clear to me this you 202 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 4: know what exactly this contract would be for and and 203 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 4: they don't actually have it. And there it sounds like 204 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 4: they're talking to a lot of potential vendors. 205 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, this sounds like a very preliminary conversation. I will say, also, 206 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 5: there will be conversations about conflict of interest. Steve Davis, 207 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 5: who I think has been described Dana, Am I right, 208 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 5: COO of Doze or does he is also. 209 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: COO of the boring company? 210 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 5: So you're gonna have conversations about is this a conflict 211 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 5: of interest? Particularly you have Doge in the Department of Transportation. Meanwhile, 212 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 5: Doge is also sort of or somebody involved with Dose 213 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 5: is also potentially benefiting financially. That'll be something I think 214 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 5: for us to keep an eye on. All Right, last 215 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 5: thing here, Dana, and this will feed into the next conversation. 216 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 5: But Bill Gates has been on sort of a media tour. 217 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 5: He's making the decisions about his philanthropy. I guess he's 218 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 5: The plan is for him to give away all of 219 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 5: the philanthropy's money over the next twenty years, and in 220 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 5: the course of interviews about this, he's made a bunch 221 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 5: of comments about Elon Musk, and during an interview with 222 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 5: The Financial Times, he said that that Musks cuts to 223 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 5: USAID DOZES cuts USIID will lead to millions of deaths 224 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 5: and said the picture of the world's richest man killing 225 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 5: the world's poorest children is not a pretty one. He 226 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 5: brought up specifically Musk's comments about Doze cutting funding for 227 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 5: HIV prevention in Mozambique. Remember this was the These are 228 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 5: the cuts that Musk described as condoms to Gaza, falsely 229 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 5: because there is a province in Mozambique also called Gaza. 230 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 5: Turns out this funding was for HIV prevention. Gates is 231 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 5: saying that it's going to kill children. And we've talked 232 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 5: about brand damage a lot, but something about this, something 233 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 5: about Gates. This like very successful capitalist accusing Elon Musk 234 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 5: of being responsible for millions of deaths of children, Like 235 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 5: it just it feels significant. 236 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, and a successful billionaire whose own foundation has done 237 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 4: an enormous amount of work in the field of public 238 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 4: health and vaccines around the world. Right, So, I mean 239 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 4: the Gates Foundation is one of the big funders of 240 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 4: like global health and so to have Gates come out 241 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 4: and say this at a time when Gate is kind 242 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 4: of like exiting the stage and winding, you know, like 243 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 4: sort of signaling that like his philanthropy is going to 244 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 4: end the next stage to see ages, it's like a 245 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 4: parting shot to the world that like, you know, all 246 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 4: of these cuts are Elon's fault. And I think the 247 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 4: fact that Elon sort of gleefully posted on x that 248 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 4: he had spent the weekend feeding USA ed into the 249 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 4: wood shipperd he sort of goes hand in hand. I mean, 250 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 4: Elon himself very much acknowledged that Doge was was key 251 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 4: with that whole operation, and you're really seeing the fallout 252 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 4: now around the world. 253 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 5: I want to say, for the record, Elon dismissed Gates 254 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 5: as a quote huge liar. The two have a long 255 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 5: history of beef. Dan I believe Gates sold some Tesla. 256 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 4: Stock at some point and was sure there was there 257 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 4: was a theory that he was shortening Tesla stock. 258 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 5: At some point Elon tweeted a me meme about Gates. 259 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: So there's been a lot of a lot of back 260 00:12:58,720 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 2: and forth. 261 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 4: It's one of the original feuds right, well. 262 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Okay, Dana. 263 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 5: I am so happy that we have Matt Lebrot here, 264 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 5: the author of this letter about Tesla and Elon Musk, 265 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 5: longtime Tesla employee, Matt joining us from the Bay Area. 266 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 2: Thank you for being here. 267 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 3: Absolutely happy to be here. Thank you so much. 268 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 6: So. 269 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 5: You worked at Tesla for I believe almost six years. 270 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 5: Tell us, just to create some context, what were you 271 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 5: doing at the company? 272 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: What was your role there? 273 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,359 Speaker 3: Sure? Absolutely. I started in the field in southern California 274 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 3: as an assistant manager they call them customer experience managers 275 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 3: back then, and then was promoted to general manager of 276 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 3: another sales and delivery location in the Bay Area. That's 277 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 3: when I moved up here to Colma, South San Francisco area, 278 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 3: and then from there transitioned into some corporate roles where 279 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,719 Speaker 3: I supported the least return team and then eventually made 280 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: my way over to customer education and internal training for 281 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 3: our sales and delivery teams. So when I left or 282 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 3: got asked to leave, however, we want to phrase that. 283 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 3: You know, my most recent role, I was creating sales 284 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 3: and delivery content for North America for the twenty five 285 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 3: hundred ish leaders and sales and delivery associates. 286 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 4: So to back up for a second for people who 287 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 4: might not be aware of the sequence of events. I 288 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 4: got this anonymous letter in my inbox Tesla employees against Elon. 289 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 4: Tesla is ready to move forward. And the letter is 290 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 4: extraordinary and it says our products are not the problem, 291 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 4: our engineering, service and delivery teams are not the problem. 292 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 4: The problem is demand. The problem is Elon. And so 293 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 4: I get this letter and I'm like, oh my god, 294 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 4: who wrote this? And I started emailing with Matt, who 295 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 4: was anonymous at the time, and I was like, do 296 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 4: you work in sales? Like when can we meet? And like, 297 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 4: because we have very high barber publication at Bloomberg, I 298 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 4: couldn't write about it until I could verify his employment, 299 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 4: and like, so this letter comes out. I think every 300 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 4: journalist who covers Tesla was probably like dming you and 301 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 4: trying to meet with you. You ultimately talked to Business Insider, 302 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 4: but you got fired, Like two days later. Do you 303 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 4: want to talk about the sequence? Like the letter goes. 304 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 2: Up, start with why you wrote the letter in the 305 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: first place. 306 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 3: Sure, First of all, I was the only person to 307 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,239 Speaker 3: write and publish the letter. There were no other employees 308 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 3: that were fully aware of me doing that. However, the letter, 309 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 3: you know, I appreciate the feedback I've gotten for it 310 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: being a well written letter. It's not all my ideas. 311 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 3: This is a compilation of conversations that I've had with 312 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 3: countless employees across North America over the last six months. 313 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 3: So that's where all of this information, and you know, 314 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 3: the idea really came from. And after increasing frustrations month 315 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 3: over month and you know, expecting Tesla to make some moves. 316 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: You know, we can of course go into deep about 317 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: the timeline of frustrations, but you know, really, once I 318 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 3: decided it was time to publish this, I did everything 319 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: I could to stay anonymous. The plan was to stay anonymous. 320 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 3: I am as relatively tech savvy as I think I 321 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 3: could be, so you know, I took these necessary steps. 322 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: I bought a new computer, I used my home Wi 323 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 3: Fi network to purchase the domain and build the website, 324 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 3: all these things that I thought I did to keep anonymous. 325 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 3: But within forty eight hours, I received a phone call 326 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: from a very polite HR associate, you know, shout out 327 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 3: to them, they're not the one who did this, right, 328 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 3: So she was very nice but you know, when she 329 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 3: let me know I was terminated, you know, she very 330 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: specifically said for using company resources. And again she's not 331 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 3: the one who did the investigation. I can't fight with 332 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 3: this person on it. But I very specifically didn't do that. 333 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 3: I took these steps appropriately to actively not do that. 334 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 3: As far as how I was found out. Again, we 335 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: can dig in more if we want, but info, Yeah, 336 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 3: Infosec's a big thing. 337 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 4: Could you talk a little bit about the cyber truck 338 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 4: and and the fact that you own one and what 339 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 4: you did with your cyber truck as well? 340 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, Uh, you know, I did buy a cyber truck. 341 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 3: I will throw out there that I do not love 342 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: the way that it looks on the outside, but when 343 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 3: I drive it, I don't have to look at it, 344 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 3: and it's really great on the inside, So that sits 345 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 3: really well for me. My wife and I didn't even 346 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 3: have a ton of arguments about buying it. It was 347 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 3: it was kind of okay because I bought mine right 348 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 3: when it came out. I think by mid February I 349 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 3: had mine, and it was really through the lens of 350 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 3: we did need a truck. It would be pretty absurd 351 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 3: of me as a Tesla employee to buy a Rivian, 352 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 3: and I wanted to continue to support the company that 353 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 3: I worked for, So all those things added up to great. 354 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 3: Get a cyber truck. And then after I published my letter, 355 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: you know, this huge weight gets lifted. This tension that 356 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 3: I've been feeling about this for a long time was lifted. 357 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 3: And then the ideas start to flow, and I come 358 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 3: up with the idea of turning this cyber truck, which 359 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 3: has been communicated many times as being such a great billboard, 360 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 3: and it's like, great, let me billboard this thing up. 361 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 3: And I ran to home depot, grabbed some spray paint 362 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 3: and some stencils, and in my garage in the middle 363 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 3: of the night, spray painted this message that I wanted 364 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 3: to get across, and and that message is, you know, 365 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 3: pro clean energy, pro renewable resources, pro EV and pro Tesla, 366 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 3: all of those things can be true while still then 367 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 3: being anti elon. So spray painted that on the side 368 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 3: and I decided to park it next to the demo 369 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 3: drive fleet that they have in the parking structure, which 370 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: at least guaranteed anybody who's going to take a demo 371 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 3: drive they're they're gonna see this thing. 372 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 5: Matt, why and maybe this this can get us into 373 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 5: kind of talking about what's happened as Elon has has 374 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 5: gotten more political, but like why that message specifically, I 375 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 5: mean pro EV, you know, pro clean energy, but against Elon? 376 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 2: Why why against Elon? 377 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 3: Yeah, the letter is not as political as the Business 378 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 3: Insider article you know went in that direction, but you 379 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 3: know the message was really the for Elon by our 380 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 3: primary customer base has changed and the reason for that 381 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 3: is a scattering and it started with him being more 382 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 3: active on Twitter and eventually turning into the acquisition of Twitter. 383 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 3: We started to see that transition happen. But as that 384 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 3: transition was happening, we were still seeing such an influx 385 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 3: of first time EV buyers. So, you know, twenty twenty two, 386 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 3: end of twenty twenty two, we're still seeing first time 387 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 3: EV buyers like we've never seen before. So the first 388 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 3: wave of people that were abandoning Tesla because of Elon 389 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 3: kind of were able to be hidden. And then that 390 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 3: took a huge skyrocket forward when he started to get 391 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 3: more political and specifically in a direction where again for 392 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 3: whatever reason, a lot of our customers disagree with. 393 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 5: So, like your understanding of like maybe this is in 394 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 5: every Tesla customer, but this is a big part of 395 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 5: your customer base kind of like a left of center 396 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 5: kind of suburban type who's like interested in the environmental mission, 397 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 5: not necessarily like some kind of hardcore leftist, but certainly 398 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 5: not a Maga Republican sure, and that as Elon is 399 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 5: doing this, he is essentially alienating this huge constituency which 400 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 5: had been not necessarily buying all of Tesla's products, because 401 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 5: of course there are you know, there are other types 402 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 5: of customers for evs and so on, but buy a 403 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 5: lot of them. 404 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And everybody can fit into certain buckets, and 405 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 3: Tesla customers fit in multiple different buckets. And the only 406 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 3: one that I think that you're missing there is there 407 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 3: is this group that doesn't even definitely political lean a 408 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: certain direction, but they're free speech whatever your speech is, 409 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 3: and clean energy in whatever way it needs to be done. 410 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: So there's those folks as well. And I think that 411 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 3: again was the initial wave. Those were the people most 412 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 3: in tuned to what was going on on Twitter that 413 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: now x and those were the first wave. 414 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 4: Internally, did like the alarm bells go off, because, like 415 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 4: we have argued on this show, quite a lot about 416 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 4: Tesla sales, and everyone would always be like, oh, the 417 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 4: sales are going to take a dive because Elon is 418 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 4: so political, And I would say, well, yes, but like 419 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 4: the lineup is old, and the cyber truck isn't doing well, 420 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 4: and like the model why really needs refresh? So like 421 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 4: there's multiple reasons why sales are taking a dip. You 422 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 4: can't blame it all on politics. But like walk us 423 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 4: through the timeline of you know, last July, muskandrses Trump October, 424 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 4: he campaigns with him, Trump wins the election. Like were 425 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 4: you getting data internally where you were like, oh, like 426 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 4: we're seeing a big drop off. We're seeing a big 427 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 4: cancel cancelation of orders. 428 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: Like as a. 429 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 4: Sales guy, like you must be tracking this very closely, 430 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 4: like in real time day to day. Was there like 431 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 4: when did you realize like holy crap, like this we're 432 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 4: starting a creator here. 433 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, yeah, there's there's so many different data points 434 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 3: that you can go off of. But also in car 435 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 3: sales and customer service in general, a lot of it 436 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 3: goes off a vibe and how the vibes of the 437 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,959 Speaker 3: days are going, and you know, the customers that you're 438 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 3: speaking to on the phone that submitted a trade in request, 439 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,239 Speaker 3: how open those people are to converse with you. You 440 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,479 Speaker 3: start to notice some changes there, But I think it's 441 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 3: also worth acknowledging. You know, January twenty twenty four and 442 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 3: to June, those were really tough financial times. Car interest 443 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 3: rates very very high, so you really start to see 444 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 3: a slow down there that is really attributed to just 445 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 3: the current state. I do think it is worth calling 446 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 3: out the age of the why by that point as. 447 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 2: Well was a little bit of a factor. 448 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 3: But I mean, how long has the Honda CRV looked 449 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 3: like the Honda CRV? Right? The majority of customers, especially 450 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 3: the ones that Tesla has been going after the last 451 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 3: few years, they don't. Those aren't the ones who care 452 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 3: about the most up to date thing. So by June 453 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 3: we're seeing promotional aprs, we're seeing interest rates, all these 454 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 3: things that Tesla hasn't really done before. Lease really big 455 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 3: lease focuses things like that. So you see Teslas start 456 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 3: to make some moves there, and then you as sales, 457 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: you kind of breathe a little bit where you're like, okay, 458 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 3: this is working this you know the May June where like, 459 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 3: all right, we sold so many model wise, life is grand. 460 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 3: It was just a financial issue. And then September rolls 461 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 3: around and Septembers where you're like, well, we're still doing 462 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 3: the same aprs. We've got FSD transfer. 463 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 5: Sorry just to pause FSD transfer, meaning you're not charging 464 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 5: people an additional seven grand right to get this full 465 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 5: self driving software in their new Tesla. So it's like 466 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 5: effectively a seven thousand dollars price cut. 467 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is worth acknowledging that, you know. It is 468 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 3: kind of the way of saying, hey, we know we 469 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 3: didn't give you FSD for your first car, so sen 470 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 3: you already bought it, let's transfer it. So there's pieces 471 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 3: to that, but so all these levers are there to 472 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 3: be pulled and we're still selling cars. But what you 473 00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 3: can acknowledge is the transition of we don't have a 474 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 3: backlog of customers the same way that you have before 475 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 3: for any customer who has purchased a Tesla over the years, 476 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 3: you know, customer service hasn't really been the biggest focus, 477 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 3: and well it hasn't truly been our focus, but end 478 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: result wise, it hasn't really hit the mark yet. But 479 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 3: what you would see is, oh, you're not ready to 480 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 3: take delivery of your car, no problem, We're gonna unmatch 481 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 3: it from you because it's just going to go to 482 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 3: the next customer in line by. But most of the 483 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 3: time we wouldn't respond, so that would happen. But then 484 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 3: when September rolls around, we have to make this push 485 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 3: for hey, maybe be a little nicer about this, Maybe 486 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 3: hold some hands through this process, and don't just rip 487 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 3: cars away from customers, because when you rip it away 488 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 3: from them, there isn't another customer in line waiting for 489 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 3: that car. And we're not talking just cyber trucks here, 490 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 3: we're talking model wise, the most popular car in the 491 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 3: world right that there is in and Tory available in 492 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 3: the moment for anybody. 493 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 4: So what happened between June and September? Was it the endorsement? 494 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? 495 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 4: Was it that Elon endorsed Trump? 496 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: Yeah? 497 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 3: And I think it's important to talk about the people 498 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 3: who used to come in and be like, I don't 499 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 3: really love what Elon's saying on Twitter. You know, whether 500 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 3: they're there for a service appointment or they are thinking 501 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 3: about getting a new car, but they're not super happy 502 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 3: about it. We start to have less of those conversations 503 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 3: because those customers just didn't come. It wasn't like we're 504 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 3: fighting with people and we're trying to overcome these objections. 505 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 3: It's really easy to not support a company you don't 506 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 3: want to support, you just don't show up. So customers, 507 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 3: total foot traffic is down, total demo drives, things like 508 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 3: that are down. You know, just and this is you 509 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 3: can sit outside of a location and count people coming 510 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 3: in right if you want, Like you see those things. 511 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 4: Okay, So that's through September. So then we've got the fall, 512 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 4: Like the election happens, Trump wins, Musk is at inauguration. 513 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 4: There's the whole awkward gesture which Max and I joke 514 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 4: about all the time. Like you're in sales, you're on 515 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 4: these team calls every day, Like are people talking openly 516 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 4: about this or is it all like sides slack messages 517 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 4: or dms or like going out for beers after work 518 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 4: and be like, oh my god, what are we gonna 519 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 4: do with our CEO? Like how much of an awareness 520 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 4: was there internally that the brand issues were real? 521 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 3: Yeah? Side messages on teams is the name of the game. 522 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 3: You're sitting on these conference calls where you're talking about 523 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 3: business needs, whether we're having a just a training meeting 524 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 3: where we're talking about what trainings we need to put out, 525 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 3: or full sales operations, or even North America leadership calls. 526 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 3: Like all of these calls, nobody is saying, hey, traffic 527 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 3: is down due to how people are feeling about the 528 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 3: actions of our CEO. They just say traffic is down 529 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 3: or whatever it may be. And then on the smaller 530 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 3: groups where you're like, okay, we can talk more real, 531 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 3: Like for these just training meetings, you're like, we can 532 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 3: talk real here, there is still no acknowledgment about this 533 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 3: giant elephant in the room. So the messages that the 534 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 3: conversations you have with peers where you're acknowledging the real 535 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 3: elephant in the room two on two conversations like teeny 536 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 3: tiny groups with your peers, but no, nothing huge. And 537 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 3: I even specifically, especially around this October turning point, ask 538 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 3: my manager at the time directly, I'm like, hey, I know, 539 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 3: I know we're fighting here. We're doing everything we can, 540 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 3: We're putting out the best training content we've ever put out. 541 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 3: But when you're in these meetings with your boss and 542 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 3: their boss, do you is there this acknowledgment about why traffic, 543 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 3: like and she just straight up tells me. She's like, no, no, 544 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 3: we just don't talk about it. I'm like, okay, well, 545 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 3: but like, doesn't that mean that we then spend time 546 00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 3: focusing on a solve that doesn't actually reference the this 547 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 3: root cause. And she's say, eh, what ifs like it is? 548 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 5: It just sounds so oppressive, especially at a company that's 549 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 5: like talks about itself, is grounded and thinking things through 550 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 5: and first, you know, all the all the kind of 551 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 5: I just imagine many people at Tesla just sort of 552 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 5: in this state of real like unease because on one hand, 553 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 5: like I think, and this comes up in the letter, 554 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 5: but like everyone kind of knows that Elon Musk has 555 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 5: done amazing things and it's hard to separate his identity 556 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 5: from Tesla. And then on the other hand, this kind 557 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 5: of like growing realization that his identity is harming Tesla, 558 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 5: maybe even depending on your point of view, potentially putting 559 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 5: it at in like an existential risk. It just I 560 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 5: just imagine that's like a pretty heavy to go through. 561 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it really is. And you know, one of 562 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: the reasons that I went live with the letter is 563 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: because when you all are not hearing these bigger conversations 564 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 3: in bigger groups, and again maybe it's just you and 565 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 3: a couple of people talking about it, like you do 566 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 3: actually feel like this thing is happening around you and 567 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 3: you have no control over what's going on, and this 568 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 3: weight is just you know, smushing you down. But once 569 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 3: you start, once you meet a new person that is 570 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 3: willing to say the quiet part out loud with you, 571 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 3: it's just like, oh, okay, good, there's another person. And 572 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,479 Speaker 3: I am known for speaking my mind, and I'll come 573 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 3: off of mute in some of these calls, and I'll 574 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 3: call a spade a spade. I'll say, hey, can we 575 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 3: just acknowledge that the new model, why, if it had 576 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 3: launched last year, would have been selling like crazy. You know, 577 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 3: these types of things where I'll come off mute, and 578 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 3: these groups that I'm in, these people who I've known 579 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 3: for a really long time, whether they're three levels higher 580 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 3: than me or not, I respect these people. I get 581 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 3: these side messages, you know, one that's like, amen, man, 582 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 3: thank you so much for saying that. And I'm like, oh, 583 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 3: this person is huge within the company, and they're teamsing 584 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 3: me on the side to say thank you for saying that, 585 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 3: Like they don't feel empowered to say this thing that sucks, 586 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 3: and these are the people that have been you know what, 587 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: We can say all of the theomenal things that Elon has done, 588 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 3: but we can also say that some of these people 589 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 3: that I'm referencing are the people who led sales and 590 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 3: delivery from twenty eighteen onward, where we ramped this insane 591 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: operation and did these incredible things at lower staffing levels 592 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 3: than anybody else would ever do, and things like that. 593 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 3: So these are the people who were there for those things, 594 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 3: and we're pivotal in making that happen, and they don't 595 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 3: feel comfortable saying anything right now. 596 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 4: So now that the letter is out and your LinkedIn 597 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 4: post is out there, and the Business Insider piece ran, like, 598 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 4: what kind of feedback are you getting from other automakers, 599 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 4: from other salespeople, from your colleagues current and former? 600 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you must just be getting inundated. 601 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 4: And people are like, thank you so much for speaking out, 602 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 4: but like, why aren't other people speaking out? Is it 603 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 4: just that Elon still has an iron grip on the 604 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 4: company even though he's not really there every day and 605 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 4: he's running four other companies, and as we speak, he's 606 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 4: in Saudi Arabia with President Trump. 607 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been fantastic. I've gotten great emails, direct messages, 608 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 3: all these kind of things. But I'll also acknowledge that 609 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 3: there are people who have outreached where those outreaches mean 610 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 3: more to me. And it's one of those things if 611 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 3: you can acknowledge when you're in a sphere of people, again, 612 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 3: whether we're calling it, you know, your Blue sphere of 613 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 3: California or whatever, when you're surrounded by like minded people, 614 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 3: you don't expect too much pushback. But some of these 615 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 3: messages that I'm getting are from people across North America 616 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 3: that maybe I've worked with a little bit. I got 617 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 3: one the other day from a person who I'm like, 618 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 3: this guy hates me. We've rubbed each other the wrong 619 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 3: way for years, and to have this person reach out 620 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 3: and say thank you so much for doing this. I've 621 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 3: been struggling with what I'm supposed to do here, and 622 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 3: you know, am I supposed to stay internal and try 623 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 3: to fight the good fight internally? Or am I just 624 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 3: supposed to leave? And also, so many people who've reached 625 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 3: out said I just had to leave. You know, I 626 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 3: got a new job, and I'm so much happier whatever. 627 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 3: But that sucks. Like the fact that there is truly 628 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 3: a chance that the Tesla vehicle business as we know 629 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 3: it won't exist in three hundred and sixty five days. 630 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 3: That sucks. 631 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 5: But I mean, like in your letter you talked about 632 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 5: new Model Why sitting on the lot, Like, first of all, 633 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 5: that felt like news and also super serious, like that 634 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 5: that is a real problem. That's supposed to be the 635 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 5: hot car that you know. 636 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: That's gonna that's gonna move. 637 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I'm not out here sharing inventory numbers 638 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 3: or anything like that. Where you can acknowledge from publicly 639 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 3: available data is that you can go to the website. 640 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 3: You can build out most configurations of Model Why and 641 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 3: it will say available today. You used to wait months 642 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 3: for these cars, and sure, we're great at production now 643 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 3: and things like that. But a brand new refresh, and 644 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 3: especially when when you're saying people have been waiting for 645 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 3: this refresh, they didn't buy in January because they were 646 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 3: waiting for this, you can instantly see that that's just 647 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 3: not true. People will not buy this car for multiple reasons. 648 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 3: One of them is that it is incredibly obvious that 649 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 3: you purchased this car in twenty twenty five. You can't 650 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 3: put a I bought this before he went crazy sticker 651 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 3: on any of these cars. 652 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 4: So even if it marks you, it marks you as 653 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 4: like a post inauguration buyer exactly. 654 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. And even myself, you know, driving a cyber truck. 655 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 3: People have hated me right away from the cyber truck 656 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 3: because they've had design issues with it. They just haven't 657 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 3: liked the way it looks. But now it's like, listen, 658 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 3: you bought this he was already crazy, And I can 659 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 3: acknowledge that if I had picked my head up out 660 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 3: of the sand, I probably should have known by that 661 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 3: time where things were headed. But also shout out to Wes, 662 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 3: who you know, really built this cyber truck program. It's 663 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 3: a phenomenal truck from the inside. 664 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 5: Yes, okay, So last question, Matt, and then we'll let 665 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 5: you go. Do you think this company can be turned around. 666 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 3: Based on when you talk to protesters, They're going to 667 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 3: tell you no, because the expectation is not just getting 668 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 3: him out of CEO, but that he must get rid 669 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 3: of all of his shares as a real human that 670 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 3: lives in the real world. In twenty twenty five, I 671 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 3: acknowledge that you cannot buy anything without accidentally giving money 672 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 3: to a billionaire that you don't believe in. So what 673 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 3: I want to see is I want to see a 674 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 3: separation from Elon. I want to see the company say 675 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 3: we're sorry, let's focus on clean, renewable energies and then 676 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 3: give us a shot to win you back. There is 677 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 3: a chance there if that happens, but I also acknowledge 678 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 3: that he's not going to do that. 679 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 5: So, Matt, thank you so much that this conversation has 680 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 5: been fascinating. I hope we can stay in touch, you 681 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 5: know whatever as a story plays out. Good luck with 682 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 5: the job search, and hopefully we'll talk to you soon. 683 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, thank you all so much. 684 00:34:58,760 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: That was awesome. 685 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 5: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong. Anna Masarakis is 686 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 5: our editor, Blake Maples handles engineering. 687 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 2: And Dave Purcell factchecks. Our supervising producer. 688 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 3: Is Magnus Henrickson. 689 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 5: The e lining theme is written and performed by Taka 690 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 5: Yazuzawa and Alex Seviera. Brendan Francis Newham is our executive producer, 691 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 5: and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A 692 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 5: big thanks to our supporters. Joel Weber and Bradstone. I'm 693 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 5: Max Chafkin. If you have a minute, rate and review 694 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 5: our show, it'll help other listeners find us and we'll 695 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 5: see you next week.