1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: M Beau. If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. 2 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: You're listening to Software Up Radio, Special Operations, military news 3 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: and straight talk with the guys and the community. Hello again, everyone, 4 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Software Radio, Software Radio, Long time on Target. 5 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm your host this morning, Steve Belisbury joining us today 6 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: we have a very very special guest, Francis Gary Powers Jr. 7 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: The son of Gary Powers As who everyone knows was 8 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: the YouTube pilot that was shot down over the Soviet 9 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: Union back during the Cold War. UM and Gary is 10 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: a very interesting person in his own right. He was 11 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: born during the Cold War in California, UM. He graduated 12 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: from cal State l A with a degree in philosophy 13 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: as a master's from George Mason University, as well as 14 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: another master's from Adam State University in Colorado. He's the 15 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: founder and chairman emeritus of the Cold War Museum, which 16 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: is located at the Cold War Army base ben Hill 17 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: Farms just outside of Washington, d C. Well, it used 18 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: to be back in the day. It's probably a lot 19 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: farther now because of traffic. But he founded the museum 20 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: in to honor Cold War veterans and pervert preserved Cold 21 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: War history. So before we get into all of that, 22 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: we want to welcome Gary to the podcast. Gary, thanks 23 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: for taking the time this morning. It is our pleasure. Well, 24 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: thank you very much, Step for inviting me to be on. 25 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: I'll look forward to chatting you with you about Cold 26 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: War history. Yeah. Absolutely, And let's jump right into this. 27 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: That you know, the son of Gary Powers, you grew up. 28 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you knew somewhat about your father, but you 29 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: know after reading your book, and I want to mention 30 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: this before we go any further than Gary's book is 31 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: called Spy Pilot Francis Gary Powers, the YouTube incident in 32 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: a controversial co war legacy. And in the book you 33 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, not really knowing the true story 34 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: about your dad, and you know, what was it like 35 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: for you growing up while your dad was still alive. Well, 36 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: for me growing up in this family, it was normal. 37 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: I mean I knew Dad had been shot down, imprisoned, 38 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: exchanged by the Soviets for a Russian spy, but I 39 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: didn't realize that was special. I was a kid. I 40 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: just didn't comprehend the significance of it when I was 41 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: growing up. When Dad died on August one of seventy 42 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: in a helicopter crash while working for NBC Television. That's 43 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: when I became aware of the historical significance of what 44 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: he had gone through. But by that time it was 45 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: too late to ask him questions since he had just 46 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: passed away and so um throughout high school, that was 47 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: a little challenging for me. But then in college I 48 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: came out of my shell. I was curious. I started 49 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: doing research, and over the last thirty plus years, I've 50 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: done all this research, talking to his contemporaries, getting oral 51 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: and written histories from people that knew him that had 52 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: been unpublished, getting FOYA or declassified files from the CIA 53 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: and the Air Force. That I really put this puzzle 54 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: together and found out the truth of what took place. 55 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: And that was the whole goal when I started doing 56 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: my research, was to find out the truth of what 57 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: took place. So I knew how to answer questions. As 58 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: a kid, I would get these questions from people, my 59 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: peers at school or t cheers or even strangers asking 60 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: about my father, Oh, you're Gary Power's son. Did he 61 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: do this, did he do that? Why didn't he do 62 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: this or that? And at the time I didn't know 63 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: the answers. So over the last thirty plus years I 64 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: figured out the answers and my book was published in 65 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, and it sets the record straight. Yeah, 66 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny because you you talked about 67 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: this in in in the book and how there was 68 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: such a I guess diverse uh h, I guess kind 69 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: of thought over whether your father did something wrong or 70 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: he was a hero. And I remember growing up in 71 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: that error. As we talked offline, Um, you know, in 72 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: elementary school, we were under the impression that he had 73 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: done something wrong, that there was something, you know, and 74 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: the teachers in elementary school gave us the impression that 75 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: your dad had did something wrong. And as I told 76 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: you later on, in high school, we had a teacher 77 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: that was a you know, retired Navy captain and he 78 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: was telling us no, Gary Powers was a was a hero. 79 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: And it was very confusing for those of us growing up. 80 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: And I can imagine, you know, being the son of 81 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: Gary Powers, it had to have been very confusing when 82 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: all of this, you know, when you started your ah, 83 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: your research into this, and you know, um, you know, 84 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: when you talk about your dad, you know, what was 85 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: he like growing up? Was he just your your typical 86 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: dad that happened to be a pilot, you know, did 87 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: he did he ever give any inkling that there was 88 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: something special there that had happened to him. Well, Dad 89 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: was for the most part, UM, very down to earth individual. 90 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: His profession was a pilot. That's what he did to 91 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: support his family. He flew for the military between fifty 92 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: two and six, he was with the YouTube program from 93 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: fifty six to sixty two years in a Soviet jail 94 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: from sixty to sixty two, and then when he got home, Um, 95 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: he ended up being a test pilot for Lockheed, flying 96 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: the U twos between sixty three and seventy, and then 97 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: flying for radio and television stations in Los Angeles from 98 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: seventy two to seventy seven. So his whole career, for 99 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: the most part, was being a pilot, and that's what 100 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: he wanted to do, what he loved to do, that 101 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: was his passion. UM. So, as I was growing up 102 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: in this family, and I was aware that Dad had 103 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: been shot down and prisoned and ultimately exchanged, but it 104 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: just it, I didn't understand the significance um dad was. 105 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: Um didn't overtly go out and talk about his experiences, 106 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: but if people um invited him to go to a 107 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: meaning and talk, he would um. He also wrote a 108 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: book called Operation an Overflight back in nineteen seventy that 109 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: detailed his account of his experiences, and he was on 110 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: the lecture circuit for two or three years between seventy 111 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: and seventy two. Some of your listeners might remember the 112 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: Soupy Sales Show or the Johnny Carson Show, and during 113 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: that time period he would be on those type of 114 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: shows talking about his experiences, promoting his book. So Dad, 115 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: for the most part, was just, you know, a Virginia gentleman. 116 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: His handshake was his word. If he shook your hand, 117 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: he'd fulfill his part of the obligation. Uh. And he 118 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: was one of the best pilots of the era selected 119 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: for the YouTube program. Yeah. And I think that's you know, 120 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: what people lose sight of is your father was not 121 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: a spy. He didn't join the CIA. He joined the 122 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: Air Force. He was an Air Force pilot and he 123 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: was selected for this very obviously sensitive mission. And I 124 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: think that's important to remember because it's like, oh, well, 125 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, he's he didn't sign him to James Bond. 126 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: He signed him to be a pilot, and it just 127 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: so happened that, you know, all of the events that 128 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: were going on with the Soviet Union at that time, 129 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of younger Americans don't realize 130 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: they the tension that was going on between the US 131 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: and the Soviet Union at that time. Yeah, that's right, 132 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: the tension between our two countries, the US and the 133 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: Soviet Union between forty five, the end of World War 134 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: Two up through when the colous Soviet Union collapsed. There 135 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: was the fear of a nuclear war, there was a 136 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: fear of a surprise attack. There was a lot of 137 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: tensions between the Soviets and the Americans, and that tension 138 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: is really what guided the Cold War through that forty 139 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: six year period of time. The Cuban missile crisis in 140 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: sixty two was basically the apex of the Cold War. 141 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: The U two incident that happened in May of sixty 142 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: was also one of the highlights of the Cold War. 143 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: And I believe that that time period between May one 144 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: ext team when my father was shot down in October 145 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 1: sixty two, when the Cuban missile crisis happened, that was 146 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: really the the epitome of the Cold War. The hottest 147 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: or the closest we came to a nuclear confrontation. Between 148 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: those two dates of may Onet when my father was 149 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: shot down. You've got the erection of the Berlin Wall 150 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: in sixty one, increased tensions. You have the Bay of 151 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: Pigs in late sixty one or early sixty one, more tension, 152 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: and then that ended up being Uh. The tensions really 153 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: accumulated with the Cuban missile crisis in October sixty two. 154 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: So for students today that are studying Cold War history, 155 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: it's usually the last week of school and they brush 156 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: over it. They hear about the Cuban Missile crisis because 157 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy was involved in that one, But for 158 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: the most part, they don't really know or understand what 159 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: happened with the USS Liberty incident, the US is Pueblo incident, 160 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: the U two incident. Uh. The spy satellites we have 161 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: going around in orbit, now, that was the result of 162 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: the Cold War, the cat and mouse game that we 163 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: aid with the Soviets trying to find out their strengths 164 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: and weaknesses while we they were trying to find out 165 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: hours and it was just really a global, international, multidimensional 166 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: chess game. That could have resulted in the end of 167 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: the world, but fortunately it did not. Right, And you 168 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: know too, to refresh our listeners memories on this because 169 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people probably don't remember a lot of 170 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: the details on it. Uh. I know, we could talk 171 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: for hours about the mission and what happened, but can 172 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: you give our listeners, you know, a brief overview of 173 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: what that last mission you know, entailed, and how your 174 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: father ended up being captured and why a lot of 175 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: people didn't believe that he didn't do anything wrong at 176 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: that time because um, you know, at that time, we 177 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: thought our YouTube spy planes were invulnerable, right, So, um, 178 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: the whole reason that the YouTube program became into existence 179 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: was that President and Eisenhower at the time, along with 180 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: Alan Dullis out of the CIA, they were trying to 181 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: figure out the strengths and weaknesses of our adversary, the 182 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: Soviet Union. During that time period of the Cold War, 183 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: it was very difficult to get ground agents James Bond 184 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: type of spies into the Soviet Union. Uh. They were 185 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 1: a closed cities, they were close society, Their maps were 186 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: not accurate. There was no real good information that could 187 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: be obtained by a ground agent because it was so 188 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 1: difficult to move around in the Soviet Union, and so 189 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: because of the rhetoric that the cru chef was saying 190 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: at the time about how they have more missiles than 191 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: we do, they have more bombers than we do, that 192 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: they're going to bury us. That type of rhetoric contributed 193 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: to the United States desire to find out their strengths 194 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: and weaknesses to protect Americans at home by finding out 195 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: what type of military strengths the weapons that these Soviets had. 196 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: So the YouTube pro Graham was created in nineteen fifty five, 197 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: first operational July fourth, fifty six, and the plane that 198 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: was designed by Kelly Johnson out of Lockheed the skunk 199 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: Works Burbank, California at the time. Uh he designed this 200 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: airplane that would fly at seventy thousand feet or above. 201 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: And this airplane was state of the art in the 202 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. Um it could go four up to new 203 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: nine ten eleven hours at seventy thousand feet taking photographs 204 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: of military installations and other strengths and weaknesses of our adversaries. So, 205 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: for the first four years between fifty six and sixty, 206 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: the U twos were flying over the Soviet Union, China, Tibet, India, Pakistan, 207 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: Middle Eastern countries, Eastern European countries taking photographs. The Soviets 208 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: had a weapon called the s A to A a missile, 209 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: but it could only reach sixty thousand feet at the time. 210 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: Between nineteen fifty six and sixty the Soviets improved their 211 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: weapons system. They developed the s A two missile, and 212 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: this new and improved missile could now reach seventy ft um. 213 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: When my father was selected to do the May first mission, 214 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: one of his primary targets was to fly over Spared Lofts, 215 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: which was a city in the central part of the 216 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: Soviet Union, and there had been some other photos taken 217 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: about a month earlier that showed an s A two 218 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: base being developed there. So my father on May one 219 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: was tasked to fly over that region take photos of 220 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: the the missile base to find out if it was operational. Well, 221 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: Dad found out first hand that it was uh the 222 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: new and improved SA two missile. Eight of them were fired. 223 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: One of them exploded behind the tail section of the 224 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: U two at altitude of seventy five feet and as 225 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: a result, Dad was shot out of the sky. He 226 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: was able to bail out and eventually he was captured 227 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: and then um put in jail at the KGB prison Lubianka. 228 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: So at the time when this happened, UH, the American 229 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: intelligence agencies, the c I, A, N, S, A, UH 230 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: and those type of groups were going, you know, the 231 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: Soviets are backwards. This is the height of the Cold War. 232 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: There was a competition between the Soviets and the Americans. 233 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: We thought we were better than them, They thought they 234 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: were better than us. We were always going like the 235 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: space race, you know, it was a challenge who could 236 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: be first to do something. It was bragging rights. And 237 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: so for the United States, we did not believe of 238 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: that the Soviets had the ability to shoot down a YouTube. 239 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: It's the Cold War. It's the Soviets. They're backwards, They're 240 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: not like us. They can't do this. It had to 241 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: be the pilot's fault. Something had to have gone wrong 242 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: that allowed the Soviets to shoot down our aircraft. Because 243 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: of course the Soviets are so far backwards at the 244 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: height of the Cold War, we're gonna blame them or 245 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: or try to discount them for their achievements. And so 246 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: this is part of what led to the controversy that 247 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: surrounded my father at the time. When my father was 248 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: shot down, you know this, this feeling was that, oh, no, 249 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: it can't be the Soviets, they can't develop that type 250 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: of weapons. It had to be the pilot's fault. And 251 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: the primary theories at the time was that he had 252 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: a flame out that forced him to a lower altitude, 253 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: that he defected, that he landed the plane, or that 254 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: something else had happened, um that caused him to be captured. 255 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: The American government at the time just could not bring 256 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: themselves to admit that the Soviets were more advanced than 257 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: we wore in rocket technology. So that was part of 258 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: the contribution, or that's what contributed to my father's reputation 259 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: being tarnished when he was shot down. Now you have 260 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: to fast forward for a bunch of years. Um. Over 261 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: the last fifty plus years, the truth has come out. 262 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty, it was very limited on what was 263 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: discussed and what was out there in the public domain. 264 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: But now that the Cold War is over, from the 265 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act requests have been submitted, a lot 266 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: of stuff has been declassified. With the YouTube program, specifically, 267 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: in nine there was a declassification conference hosted by the 268 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: CIA and the Air Force that really helped to set 269 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: the record straight. And it was a result of that 270 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: conference in that it was shown that the YouTube program, 271 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: which was run by the CIA, a civilian agency, was 272 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: actually a military operation run in conjunction with the US 273 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: Air Force, and for all intent and purposes, um, the 274 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: operation was military. In nineteen sixty when this operation first started, 275 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: it could not be designated as a military operation. Had 276 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: it been a military pilot with a military plane flying 277 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: over a foreign hostile country, that would have been an 278 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: act of war. And so it had to be a 279 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: civilian operation, which is why the CIA handled it initially 280 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: back in the sixties or the fifties. UM. Now that 281 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: classification princes happened and it was shown that it was 282 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: a military operation. That allowed the government to come forward 283 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: and acknowledge that my father is a hero to our country. 284 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: As a result of that the classification conference in h 285 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: the U s. Air Force and the CIA stepped up 286 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: to the plate. They helped to dispel the misinformation. They 287 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: helped to set their record straight and as a result, 288 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: Dad was posthumously awarded the POW Medal Prisoner of War 289 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: Medal for his incarceration in the Soviet Union, and then 290 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: ultimately he was awarded the Silver Star in twelve for 291 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: his participation in the YouTube program and his captivity in 292 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union as a prisoner for two years. So 293 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: we're very happy as a family that the American government 294 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: was able to help set the record straight and able 295 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: to show that Dad was a hero to our country. Yeah, 296 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: you know, and it's funny because you know, reading this, 297 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: you know at the time that I think people in 298 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: the government, as you said, you know, they couldn't believe 299 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: that the Russians had the technology, so they automatically assumed 300 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: he did something wrong. But then you know, and I'm 301 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: jumping forward. I'm gonna move backwards in here in a minute. 302 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: But after he returns, and he's been being debriefed constantly 303 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: by the c I, A, and and and the people 304 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: back in Washington, they came to the conclusion, with the 305 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: exception of the then director of CIA, that he didn't 306 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: do anything wrong. What was the sticking point in this 307 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: one director's mind that he refused to accept the truth? 308 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: Did you ever come to did you ever figure out 309 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: why that was? Yeah? Uh? CIA director that followed Alan 310 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: Dulles was John McCone, and UM he at some point 311 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: in time all Dad was in prison, had gone out 312 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: on a limb and said that it was the pilot's fault, 313 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: that he must be a trader, that he had done 314 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: something wrong. And mccon did not want to eat crow. 315 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: He wanted to be right, so he did everything he 316 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: could to show that he was right. My father had 317 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: done something wrong. But regardless of the Pettyman Judge Pettyman 318 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: was conveyed to do a board and evaluate the situation. 319 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: The US Air Force and the CIA conveined a damage 320 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: assessment team UH and a debriefing team when Dad came home, 321 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: and this is what basically happened. The CIA, during the 322 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: debriefings for three weeks in February of two, found out 323 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: that Dad did everything he was supposed to do. He 324 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: followed orders to the t. He did not give out 325 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: any classified information. He did not collaborate with the enemy. 326 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: He followed his orders as directed. UM. Then the Senate 327 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: Select Committee hearing on March six of sixty two, the 328 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: Senators eight hours of deliberations, questions and answers back and forth. 329 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: At the end of that session they give my father 330 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: a standing ovation and they exonerate him of any wrongdoing. 331 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: So the CIA has cleared him, the um Senate, our 332 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: government has cleared him, but the court of public opinion 333 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: has not yet cleared him. And part of that is 334 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: because of all the misinformation in the newspapers saying he 335 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: had defected. He landed the plane intact, he spelled his 336 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: guts or that he hadn't followed orders. And this was 337 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: John mccohen's mindset. He believed that Dad had done something 338 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: wrong and he was going to do everything possible to 339 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: show that he was right and my father had done 340 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: something wrong. Well, at the end of the day, that 341 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: wasn't the case. And even to the point of in 342 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, I want to say, every YouTube pilot 343 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: was awarded the Intelligence Star for Valor by the CIA. 344 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: My father had one in this group, but he was 345 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: not invited to attend the CIA ceremony where these wards 346 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: awards were presented. His was presented to him in nineteen 347 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: sixty five, uh, few months prior to mccon leaving office. 348 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: It's one of the fat last things that he had 349 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: to get off this plate and do. And my father, 350 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: when he realized that he had been snubbed. Was not 351 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: too happy. I mean he almost decided to basically say 352 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: shove it and not go to this ceremony to get 353 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: this award. But my mom calmed him down and said, Frank, 354 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: you gotta play nice. You've got to go accept this award. 355 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: They're trying to make up to you for it. And 356 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: so eventually he did receive this in sixty five. But again, 357 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: this all comes down to the the um Cold War 358 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: mentality the Soviets, the Red scare. You were just coming 359 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: off McCarthy era of the fifties. Uh, it was easier 360 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: to blame the pilot than it was to admit that 361 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: we were inferior to the Soviets. M Yeah, I mean, 362 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, uh, reading all of this in the book, 363 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: it was amazing. And and the fact that, um, I 364 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: guess growing up, we all had this this intense fear 365 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: of the Usians in the KGB, and everyone automatically assumed 366 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: that that, you know, he was tortured, you know, when 367 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: are mistreated really badly by the Russians as soon as 368 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: he was captured. But that really wasn't the case, was it. No. Unfortunately, 369 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: now the Soviets did torture certain prisoners and people that 370 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: they had captured. Um. Some of that has now been 371 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: revealed over the last fifty plus years as to what 372 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: had happened. I believe that my father was treated relatively 373 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: well all things considered, because he was so high profile. 374 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: The world knew that the Soviets had him in captivity, 375 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: and the Soviets wanted to show the world how humane 376 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: they wore, how nice they wore, how they treated the 377 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: spies that they caught in their country, as a way 378 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: to further embarrass the United States. They were using my 379 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: father's capture, the show trial, and ultimately the exchange as 380 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: a way to as propaganda to show how nice and 381 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: good they wore and to further embarrass the US. You 382 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: have to remember that the US had executed the Rosenbergs 383 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 1: in the late fifties. I believe UM, and that when 384 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: they caught Rudolph Able, the Soviet spy, my dad was 385 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: eventually exchanged for they gave him thirty years in prison. Well, 386 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: the Soviets, being such a nice and hospitable country, gave 387 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: my dad ten years in prison, did not give him 388 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: the death sentence. And this was all a way of 389 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: propaganda to show the world how nice that the Soviets war. Um. 390 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: So that's just as part of the cat mouse game 391 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,719 Speaker 1: and part of the way that the Cold War affected 392 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: our two countries. Yeah. And and during your father's trial, 393 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: your grandparents got to and his first wife gets got 394 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: to travel to Moscow. Um. I know you don't have 395 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: any you didn't have any contact with your dad's first wife. 396 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: But did you ever get to talk to your grandparents 397 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: about this time frame? Um? Well, my grandfather, my dad's dad, 398 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: passed away in nineteen seventy. I was five years old, 399 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: so I wasn't really able to talk to him. My 400 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: grandmother passed away back in ninety one and ninety two, 401 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: and I didn't really ask her any questions about it 402 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: at the time. I was still, you know, relatively young, um, 403 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: and didn't really interact with her for the last five 404 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: years for a passing. He was in Virginia, I was 405 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: in California. UM. So I didn't really get to talk 406 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: to my grandparents. But I did talk to my aunts 407 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: and uncles, my dad's sisters, and their husbands about their recollections. UM. 408 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: I was able to find eighty five of my dad's 409 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: letters that he wrote to his parents and his siblings, 410 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: and their responses. So between the letters and the correspondence, 411 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: talking with my aunts and uncles, listening to my dad's 412 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: recorded tapes that he had recorded when he was living, 413 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: I was able to really piece together and find out 414 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: a lot of what took place behind the scenes as 415 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: a result of the You two incident. The whole reason 416 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: I ended up writing the book Spy Pilot was to 417 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: help set the record straight. There was all this misinformation 418 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: out there, all this rumors, these speculations about what took place, UM, 419 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: and I wanted to make sure that the family's version 420 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: of events and activities, the truth of what took place, 421 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: was documented for future generations to read. There's all this 422 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: misinformation online, conspiracy theories and rumors and speculation. Thanks to 423 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: the Internet, it's still out there. Well, at least now 424 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: this book is out there, uh, and there's the truth 425 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 1: of what took place, UM, so that can also be 426 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: found and read if researchers do their due diligence. The 427 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: whole reason was to I did this book. It was 428 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: a take that was to show what Dad's reputation went through. 429 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: It went from infamy and controversy in the sixties after 430 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: being shot down to that of an American hero today, 431 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: and this book goes through the hind the scenes activities 432 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: as to what the family did to help set the 433 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: record straight. My research that helped to show the truth 434 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: of what took place, and eventually that led to the 435 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: American government posthumously awarding my father those medals as a 436 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: hero to our country. So it was necessary for me 437 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: to do this book basically an honor of my father 438 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: to help set the record straight. Yeah, and one of 439 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: the you you just referenced some of the letters that 440 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: you know, your your dad had written from the prison 441 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: in the Soviet Union, and one of the letters that 442 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: you you posted in in the book was really it 443 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: was it was, I guess it's heart wrenching almost because 444 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: your grandparents read from the New York Times that one 445 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: of the you know, the reporters from the New York 446 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: Times said that your father was planning on remaining in 447 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: this Soviet Union after he was released, that he was 448 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: going to stay there, and he actually had no sources 449 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: on that, and it greatly upset your parents. And I 450 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: can't even begin to fathom how that affected your father, 451 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: who's languishing uh in a Soviet jail. In reading about this, 452 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: which is totally untrue. And can you you fill our 453 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 1: listeners and our readers in about that, because that, to 454 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: me was like that reading that in the book, I mean, 455 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 1: it puts the screws to you because you put yourself 456 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: in that position, and I think it's really difficult. Yeah, 457 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: well that is corrected. While Dad was in prison, there 458 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: was all this misinformation being released, um, both by both sides. Uh. 459 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: There are editorials in the press saying my father defected, 460 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: landed the plane and pact that he was seen drinking 461 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: Russian vaka at a bar shortly after landing. Um. There 462 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: were other accounts like you just said that he had 463 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: decided to stay in the Soviet Union upon his release. Um. 464 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: And it was all basically the misinformation of the time. Um. Uh. 465 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: Journalists and I say that with tongue in cheek that 466 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: we're writing about something they had no idea about. They 467 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: were fabricating these stories to sell their newspapers at Dad's expense, 468 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: And so all this rumor and misinformation was released that 469 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: clouded UM and contributed to the controversy as to what 470 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: actually happened. And that's why I thought it was so 471 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: important to finally write this book. Is to set the 472 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: record straight and show the truth of what took place. Yeah, 473 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: and you know it's again, I mean, growing up in 474 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: that time frame, I remember that. Like I mentioned earlier, 475 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's one of those things that you know, 476 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: all of us didn't know what to believe because we're 477 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: getting all this conflicting information about your father. And you know, 478 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: it's amazing that the truth did come out. And I 479 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: want you to tell our listeners about the eventual trade 480 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: for Rudolph abel Did we ever find out who he 481 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: actually was? I know Rudolph Abels was a fictional name 482 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: of a fictional person supposedly from East Germany, but we 483 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: know he was Russian. But did we ever find out 484 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: who Rudolph abel actually is? Yes, Um, Rudolph abel Um 485 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,239 Speaker 1: was a KGB colonel in the KGB. He was a 486 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: ground agent. He was a cloak and dagger spy. He um. 487 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: His actual name was I want to say Willie Fisher 488 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: uh and he was working for the Soviets for the KGB. 489 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: He was snuck into America through Canada. He's' was referred 490 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: to as an illegal in that he crossed the borders 491 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: with fake documentation, fake passport things like that to establish 492 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: a life in America as a spy U in New 493 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,479 Speaker 1: York City. His cover was that of an artist, and 494 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: he was a fairly good artist. He would do paintings 495 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: and photography and make some money in a New York 496 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: doing that for clients, But all the time he was 497 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: actually running a Soviet spy ring, collecting microfilm and microfish, 498 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: putting things in hollowed nickels or hollowed pencils to pass 499 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: on to his superiors in the Soviet Union, to bring 500 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: back the secrets of America to um the Soviets in 501 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: the KGB. So Rudolph Abel was in America for many 502 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: years in nineteen fifties ended up getting caught in I 503 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: want to say fifty seven or fifty eight because of 504 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: a hollowed nickel. One of the paper boys on around 505 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: delivered a paper to his apartment, and either he or 506 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: someone there by accident had given him this nickel that 507 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: was hollowed out and contained some microfilm. So the little 508 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: paper boy goes home, he's counting his change. The nickel 509 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: drops on the floor and opens up, and he and 510 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: his dad looked at the sting and go, this is odd. 511 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: What is this? Well, his dad calls the police. The 512 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: police called the FBI. The FBI go, this is odd, 513 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: this looks like a spy nickel, and so they set 514 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: up a sting operation to figure out what apartment this 515 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: nickel came from. So in fifty eight, the FBI captured 516 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: Rudolf Able. He's put on trial. Um James Donovan is 517 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: the attorney who represents him at trial and uh then 518 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: he's able to get a thirty year sentence as opposed 519 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: to the death penalty. So this is the story of 520 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: Rudolf Able, the Soviet spy that was captured in New 521 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: York City in the late fifties. Turns out that my 522 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: father ends up being exchanged for Rudolf Able. On February 523 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: tenth of nineteen sixty two, the Glennaker Bridge, Potsdam, Germany. 524 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: On one side at the bridge in the morning thirty 525 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: in the morning is Rudolph Able surrounded by his CIA 526 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: and FBI entourage. On the other side of the Glennaker 527 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: Bridge is my dad Spud surrounded by KGB. So they 528 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: are positively ideed. They walk home to the respective freedoms. 529 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: Able returns home a hero of the Soviet Union. My 530 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: dad returns home to all this controversy. Hence why I 531 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: wanted to write the book to set the record strength. Yeah, 532 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask you about the movie that 533 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg made. Um. About that. James Donovan, who you mentioned, 534 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: was a an attorney who he defended Rudolph Able even 535 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: though he despised what he stood for, but he believed in, 536 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, the American ideal that everyone deserves a fair trial, 537 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: and he ended up, um, you know, being behind I 538 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: guess to a to a degree, the trade. The movie 539 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: that Steven Spielberg made. Um, uh, what Bridge of Spies. 540 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: I drew a blank there for a second. You actually 541 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: had a cameo in that. And before we get into that, 542 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you was if from your family, 543 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: were you pleased with the way your father was portrayed 544 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: in that film? Well? Yes, thank you for referencing the movie. Um. 545 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: The movie came out in two thousand fifteen. It was 546 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: directed by Steven Spielberg. It starred Tom Hanks as James Donovan, 547 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: Austin Stole, a young actor, portrayed my father, and Mark 548 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: Reliance portrayed Rudolph Abel. Mark a Reliance end up putting 549 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: an oscar for his portrayal of the Soviet spy. So 550 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: it's in the movie. Oh yeah, a great movie. Um 551 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: you can find it on a DVD and Netflix and 552 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: things like that. But when this movie was being rumored 553 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: to take place, UM, I was able to get in 554 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: touch with the producer, Mark Platt. He and I talked 555 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: about the movie and the Powers family's concerns. I mean, 556 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: I reached out to them and say, hey, if you 557 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: portray my father with all the misinformation that's going to 558 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: add to this. Uh, his his his reputation being tarnished. 559 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: But if you show the truth of what took place 560 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: and and the base of the portrayal of my dad 561 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: on the declassified files it's come to surface, then he 562 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: will be painted in him as a hero to our country. 563 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: So they liked what I had to say. They hired 564 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: me on as a technical consultant. Um. I was able 565 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: to try to steer them in the right direction and 566 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,879 Speaker 1: as a result, Um, they did do a very good 567 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: job of the portrayal of my father. There is some 568 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: misinformation in the movie. Uh, it is Hollywood. It's not 569 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: a documentary. It's not a h accurate So even though 570 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: the big pictures accurate the tensions between the Soviets and 571 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 1: the Americans, the fear of a nuclear war, the duck 572 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: and cover drills and civil defense things that were going on. Uh, 573 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: my father being shot down and exchanged. All is relatively 574 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: correct in the big picture, but then when you go 575 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 1: into every scene and you analyze each scene, it's not correct. 576 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: So there is some misinformation that did find its way 577 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: into the film. But overall, we're very happy with the outcome. 578 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: At the very end of the film and the post script, Uh, 579 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: they honor my dad as a hero to our country, 580 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: So I really can't ask for more than that. Yeah, 581 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: and uh, I thought it was a fantastic film. And again, 582 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: I mean we know that Hollywood tends to oversimplify things 583 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: because I mean that's they can't tell a story that 584 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: takes what five to six years in the making in 585 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: in two hours, so you know, they kind of have 586 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 1: to simplify things. But I was just curious about your 587 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 1: feeling about that. And and uh, so, did did you 588 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,720 Speaker 1: get bit by the Hollywood bug after being as uh, 589 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: you know, extra in there as a CIA guy. Well, yeah, 590 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: as part of the uh uh movie. When I was consulting, 591 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: I'm on set at a few of the locations, and 592 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 1: at the bel Air Force Base in California, where the 593 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: home of the two program is, they made that to 594 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: appear like it was in um Shawa, Pakistan for the 595 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: May first flight. So they said, hey, Mr Powers, put 596 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: on this vintage nineteen fifty suit. We're gonna have you 597 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: escort the pilot out to his May first mission. And 598 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 1: so I did a little cameo appearance where I escort 599 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: the pilot out of the hangar doors um for the 600 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: May first mission. So it was it was really a 601 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: thrill and a delight to do this. Very surreal to 602 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: realize that, oh crap, I just walked my father out 603 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: to his mission. It was very It was It was 604 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: a great experience, in one that I won't forget anytime soon. Yeah. 605 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you had to be failing close to your 606 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: dad at that point, because here you are, you know, 607 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: years after the what fifty sixty years after it happened, 608 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: You're walking your father out to his you know, his 609 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: final flight in the YouTube. Yeah, it was. It was 610 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: very cool to be able to do that, and it 611 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: was just an honor and a privilege to work with 612 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: Mr Spielberg, Mr Hanks and all the crew and the 613 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,760 Speaker 1: staff on the project. So you know, um, I wanted 614 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: to jump back, and I kind of jumping all around 615 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: all over the place. But um, you know, in in 616 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: the research for your book, Um, right off the bat. 617 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: You know, if you if you read the book, and 618 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: I encourage all of our listeners out there to buy it. 619 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,800 Speaker 1: It's called Spy Pilot France Francis Gary Powers. Do you 620 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: two incident the controversial Cold War legacy. The forward to 621 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: the book is written by the son of Nikita Kruschef, 622 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: and you got to know him quite well and describe 623 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: our listeners how that came about. Well, yeah, Saragei Kruschef, 624 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: Kruschef's son and I are war friends. He's passed away. Um, 625 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: we first met in about and Boda, Norway. Boda is 626 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: where the you two and May first would have landed 627 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: had it been a successful mission. And we were both 628 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: there invited by the Boda Aviation Museum for a conference 629 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: on the Cold War and the U two. So we 630 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: first meet each other there and you know, we were 631 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: a little suspicious of each other and I each other 632 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: up and down. But after the week conference turns out 633 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: that you know, he was trying to Um write about 634 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: his father and to get information out. I was trying 635 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: to find out about my father and get information out. 636 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 1: We were both historians, We're both trying to look at 637 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: things from an impartial perspective, so find out the truth 638 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: of what took place, and so we hit it off. 639 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: Um he lived and worked in um Rhode Island. He 640 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 1: was a professor at Brown University for many years, so 641 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: he'd he'd come down to Washington, d C. And on 642 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 1: occasion we'd get together for dinner or drinks and talk 643 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: shop and reminisced about Cold War history. So he was 644 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: very um thoughtful to do the introduction for me when 645 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: I asked, and he basically did the introduction as as 646 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: I guess, because we had a good friendship. So that 647 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: was very fortunate to be able to get him to 648 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: do that for me. Yeah, that's you know, I think 649 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: that's an amazing footnote to the entire h series of 650 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: events that played out. I mean, here you have the 651 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: son of the YouTube pilot and the son of the 652 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: Soviet premier becoming friends after the fact. I think that 653 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: fills us all full of a little bit of confidence 654 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: that maybe, you know, we we can work through this 655 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: Cold War stuff which is still going on today. Oh yes, Um, 656 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: the Cold War uh technically quote unquote ended when the 657 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: Soviet Union collapsed, but the Cold War mentality lives on, um, 658 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: both within our government and the Russian government, especially with Putin. 659 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,320 Speaker 1: He is a Cold War prodigy. He is a KGB 660 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: raised person who lived through the Cold War and as 661 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: a result still has that mentality. Yeah. Absolutely, And uh 662 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: so were when when you were researching the book. And 663 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: again I don't want to give too much away, but 664 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, talk to our listeners a little bit about 665 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: what it was like when you retrace some of his steps. 666 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: You actually went to Russia then the Soviet Union and 667 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: you got to visit you know, his uh where he 668 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: was tried, his jail cell and and the sight of 669 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,800 Speaker 1: his his shootdown and what was that like, uh for 670 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: for you personally? Well, I have been to the Soviet 671 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: Union once on May one of nine thirty anniversary. I've 672 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: been to Russia three other times in two thousand seven, 673 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: two thousand that gotta remember these dates again two thousand ten, 674 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, let me rephrase that I was in 675 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union in May of nineteen Um, I was 676 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 1: in the Russia in nine, two thousand ten, and two 677 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: thousand seventeen, and on these various trips I was able 678 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: to meet people who interacted with my father uh, one 679 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: of the missile ears who designed the SA two missile 680 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: to shoot him down. I was able to visit the 681 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,359 Speaker 1: Hall of Columns where the trial took place UH. In nine, 682 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: I was able to visit my father's prison cell in 683 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: Vladimir Prison where he was incarcerated for eighteen months, and 684 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,919 Speaker 1: then in two thousand seventeen, I was able to see 685 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: the actual shoot down location where the chunks of the 686 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: plane hit the ground and the impact craters are still 687 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: there as well as I was able to visit the 688 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: s A two base where the missiles were fired from 689 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: and meet with people who were very young at the 690 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: time who are older now who remember seeing the shoot 691 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: down UM and or the commotion that took place that day. 692 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: So this was all part of my research to find 693 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: out the truth of what took place. I was able 694 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: to visit these sites in the Soviet Union and or Russia. 695 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: I was able to visit the Glennaker Bridge and Potsdam, Germany. 696 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: I was able to visit various locations associated with the 697 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 1: U two incident. In regards to my books by Pilot, 698 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 1: people can get it off eBay or Barnes and Noble 699 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: or Amazon for a very good price. If you'd like 700 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 1: to get an autographed copy, you can go to my 701 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 1: website at spy Pilot book dot com. Absolutely, and we 702 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: encourage all our listeners and readers to do that. Um, 703 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: and I have to ask you, you know what, with 704 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 1: all the misinformation that was out there growing up, Um, 705 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 1: did you ever sense your father was bitter over this? Was? 706 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: He was? He bitter hotwardly. I'm sure he had some 707 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: bitterness inwardly, But did he ever portray any of that 708 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: to you growing up? Uh? No, My dad never portrayed 709 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: that to me. I was still I was twelve when 710 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: he died, So I was a kid with a kid 711 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: mentality and I didn't see that stuff. He didn't talk 712 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: to me about that stuff. He did talk to my 713 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: mom and bitter, Yeah, you could say that. Um, he was. 714 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 1: He always thought that the US government could have done 715 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: more when he came back home in sixty two to 716 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: help set their record straight. Um, But I and and 717 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: they the CIA did clear him, and the Senate did 718 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: clear him. So you know, there's not much more you 719 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 1: can do. But he thought that they should have helped 720 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: to squelsh the misinformation to help show the truth of 721 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: what took place. But as I have discovered, because it 722 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: was the Cold War and this mindset, it was easier 723 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 1: to let this misinformation circulate around. It helped to keep 724 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: the secrets secret. There was so much misinformation, no one 725 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,879 Speaker 1: knew what the truth was. And the CIA likes that, 726 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: they don't like to divulge their truths. I mean, they 727 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,839 Speaker 1: like to keep that vague, um, so that they can 728 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: continue to do what they do, which is necessary to 729 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: protect our country. So um, Dad felt that they, the government, 730 00:43:58,120 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: the US government, could have been a little bit more 731 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: to help set the record straight, to help clear his name, 732 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,240 Speaker 1: But unfortunately, at the time, the Cold War time period, 733 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 1: it just wasn't meant to be. But fortunately, once the 734 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 1: Cold War ended, once enough time passed, the truth did 735 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: surface and the American government did honor Dad as a 736 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: hero to our country. So we're very very honored and 737 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,880 Speaker 1: humble to know that they did that. And and uh, 738 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, moving on and and your your dad was 739 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: a hero, and there was a lot of again you 740 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: know James Bond talk about there was this needle that 741 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, pilots could commit suicide. They were never ordered 742 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: to do that, And I think that's one of the 743 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: misinformation things that's out there. Said, Oh, well, he didn't 744 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: commit suicide like he was ordered to do. That was 745 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: strictly left up to the pilots. Was yeah, that's correct. Um. 746 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: The pilots were told during their training that if you're caught, 747 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: you will be tortured. Here is a way to alleviate 748 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: the pain and suffering, a small poison tipped needle hidden 749 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: in a hollowed out silver dollar. Um. It was an 750 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: optional device to take, an optional device to use at 751 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: the pilot's discretion. And so when my father ends up 752 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: um uh with this device but not using it, people assumed, 753 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 1: incorrectly that he was ordered to do it, that he 754 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,880 Speaker 1: must have disobeyed orders. Why would he have this device 755 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: unless he was ordered to use it. And that was 756 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: part of the mystique about the you two incident and 757 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: the controversy around it that tarnished my dad's reputation. Did 758 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: he follow orders? Did he disobey? Well? He did. He 759 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 1: did follow orders to the tea and the c I 760 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 1: realized this when he was brought back home. Yeah, and uh, 761 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, and then moving forward, you know, you embarked 762 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 1: on this journey to find out, you know, all the 763 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: truth about your father. You weren't at the outset, You 764 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: weren't looking to clear your father's name. You were just 765 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: looking to find out what the actual truth was. And 766 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: then as the truth came out. Now, now, your your 767 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,160 Speaker 1: work was to clear your father's name. But as part 768 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 1: of that, um, which I think you've done obviously, but 769 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: part of that is you created the uh, the Cold 770 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,320 Speaker 1: War Museum, and and talk to our listeners about that again, 771 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: because I think it's important that so many people don't 772 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:30,320 Speaker 1: understand how in depth the Cold War really was, and 773 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, explain where the museum is and and what 774 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,879 Speaker 1: it's all about. Well, that's that's exactly right, Steve. When 775 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,960 Speaker 1: I started the research for the book, and this is 776 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,399 Speaker 1: years ago, I was not trying to clear my father's name. 777 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: I was not trying to honor him. I was not 778 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,920 Speaker 1: trying to do anything but to find out the truth. 779 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: So I knew how to answer questions and it's snowballed. 780 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: And as a result of the book, I am my research. UM. 781 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: I discovered that there were hundreds of thousands of other 782 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: men and women who fought sacrific ice, some of which 783 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: who died during this Cold War time period, that had 784 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: not received any recognition for their service to our country 785 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,360 Speaker 1: during the Cold War era. You combine that with kids 786 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: in in school not really knowing anything about the Cold 787 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,919 Speaker 1: War in the nineteen nineties. You know, within five years 788 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:18,800 Speaker 1: after the end of the Cold War, these high school 789 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: students didn't understand what it was or didn't really learn 790 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,280 Speaker 1: about it. And we found that there was a need 791 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 1: to honor Cold War veterans, preserve Cold War history, and 792 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 1: educate kids on this time period. So in nineteen six 793 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: I founded the Cold War Museum to do just that. 794 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: I thought it would take three years fundraise three million bucks, 795 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,839 Speaker 1: shouldn't be too hard to do. Ends up taking fifteen 796 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,560 Speaker 1: years to get brick and mortar. And in that time 797 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 1: period between ninety six and two thousand eleven, we collected 798 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,600 Speaker 1: U hundreds and thousands, thousand, hundreds and thousands of Cold 799 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: War artifacts and items from the us UM Liberty Incident, 800 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:02,239 Speaker 1: the USS Pueblo Incident, uh Duck, and cover drill information 801 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 1: from civil defense items that were used at Vent Hill, 802 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: this top secret military base during the Cold War, the 803 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: monitors and receivers that were used to collect signals, intelligence 804 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,320 Speaker 1: or electronic intelligence from the embassies or around the world. 805 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 1: And we've been doing this as a way to honor 806 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 1: the veterans, preserve the history, and educate the kids. The 807 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: museum is located at vent Hill Farm Station, forty five 808 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: miles west of Washington, d C. Is an authentic Cold 809 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,320 Speaker 1: War historic site used throughout the Cold War to monitor 810 00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:41,760 Speaker 1: the our enemies around the world. And the museum opened 811 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,360 Speaker 1: to the public in uh I want to say, November 812 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven. It's been open now for ten years 813 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 1: on the weekends, staffed by volunteers midweek by appointment for 814 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: school groups or other people who cannot make it on 815 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: a weekend. More information online at cold war dot org. 816 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 1: Act excuse me, excellent and uh yeah that the uh we. 817 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: We encourage all of our listeners and readers, if you're 818 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 1: in the Virginia area, to definitely check that out. And 819 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,800 Speaker 1: you know, is there anything else that you'd like to 820 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,720 Speaker 1: inform our listeners about this morning before we wrap this up? Well, Um, 821 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 1: the Cold War was a world war. It was also 822 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,320 Speaker 1: a hot war. People did die during this conflict. It 823 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: affected every country to one extent or another, and we 824 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,400 Speaker 1: just are very um honored to be able to help 825 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,960 Speaker 1: preserve this history and honor the veterans who fought sacrifice 826 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: and some of which who died during this conflict. More 827 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: information can be found online at cold War dot org 828 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 1: and if any of your listeners would like to contact 829 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: me directly, they can reach me through my website at 830 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:56,480 Speaker 1: Gary Powers dot com. Excellent, and we again we really 831 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: want to thank you for taking the time this morning. 832 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,320 Speaker 1: We appreciate that and all your work that you've done, 833 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,440 Speaker 1: and especially with the Cold War Museum and in writing 834 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,839 Speaker 1: your father's name. Um. But before we we wrapped this up, 835 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: I just want to read something really quick. If you 836 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 1: want to get software Up on your phone, download our 837 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 1: free mobile app and get easy access to our articles, 838 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:24,840 Speaker 1: podcasts and your reviews, all perfectly formatity your device, Please 839 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,280 Speaker 1: describe to software up dot com and to get access 840 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: to all our library of the books and our exclusive 841 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,400 Speaker 1: team room forms and content available on all your Apple 842 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:38,359 Speaker 1: and Android devices. Gary, once again, thanks for joining us 843 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,320 Speaker 1: this morning. UM, we really appreciated, We appreciate your time 844 00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: and all the work you've put in, and this was 845 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: a fantastic book and once again, UH, we encourage all 846 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 1: of our readers out there check it out. Spy Pilot 847 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,600 Speaker 1: Francis Gary Power's the YouTube incident and a controversial co 848 00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,120 Speaker 1: war legacy. Thanks again, sir for joining us this morning. 849 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,760 Speaker 1: Let's hope we can do this again sometimes so well, Steve, 850 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:06,520 Speaker 1: that would be great. It was a pleasure to join you. 851 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,040 Speaker 1: And if any of your listeners are interested in having 852 00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,240 Speaker 1: me to be a speaker at one of their events 853 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,160 Speaker 1: or UM activities, I am always looking for lecture venues 854 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,880 Speaker 1: around the country to talk about Cold War history. So 855 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:19,560 Speaker 1: thank you very much for having me as a guest 856 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: on your show today. Yeah, make sure you check out 857 00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:27,799 Speaker 1: his personal website as well. And uh and if you're 858 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,480 Speaker 1: interested in having him speak at one of your events, 859 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,760 Speaker 1: you can do so there. So for myself, Steve Balstori 860 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 1: our our yes this morning, Garry Powers who joined us. 861 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 1: This is UH from Software Radio. We want to thank 862 00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,239 Speaker 1: you all for listening. We'll be back with another podcast 863 00:51:45,080 --> 00:52:04,320 Speaker 1: very very soon. Use them listening to self. Red Radia