WEBVTT - The Karol Markowicz Show: The Evolution of Media and Journalism with Eli Lake 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.560 Welcome back to Carol mark Wood Show on iHeartRadio. My 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:11.360 guest today, Eli Lake, repressed columnist and the host of 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:12.920 the Breaking History podcast. 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:14.680 Hi Eli, it's so nice to have you on. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:16.599 It's great to be here, Carol, thanks for having me. 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.919 So I've read you for years and years, and I 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.960 don't know your background or how you got into this 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:24.840 thing of ours. 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:26.319 I'd love to hear more about that. 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:35.040 Sure, Well, I grew up in Philadelphia. I wrote kind 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:35.760 of always. 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.680 Sorry Dallas Cowboys fans, I have to boom whenever we 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:40.360 mentioned Philly, you know, fair enough. 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.640 I actually have an uncle who moved to Dallas, and 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:48.880 it was a funny thing in my family. But I guess, 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.840 you know, I was always interested in writing. I grew 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.920 up my parents, you know, had a lot of kind 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.760 of intellectual friends, so there was an emphasis on learning 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:03.960 and and so forth. And at the same time, I 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:06.920 didn't really feel like I had the personality to do 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.520 years of grad school like my wife, so I wanted to. 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.000 I like learning, but I'm and I like kind of 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:16.399 being a dilettante. So I think journalism is the ultimate 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:23.959 profession for somebody who is a quick study. And but also, 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:29.480 you know, doesn't want to kind of go into years 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:33.000 of their of their twenties, and you know, in the 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.120 politics of graduate school, which is kind of almost like 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.760 one of the last bastions of feudalism in our society, 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.320 and that you know, you're basically kind of an intellectual 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:46.640 slave until you get your tenure track position and there's okay, 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.240 you know, anyway going to that. So I sort of 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:54.280 decided that like that wasn't for me. And you know, 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.960 I had like a year where like I did all 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:58.760 kinds of jobs, like at one point I was doing 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.920 like opposition research, and then I finally got a job 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:07.320 working in Washington for a newsletter that covered the Environmental 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.280 Protection Agency, and it was a great I found it. 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:14.400 I really liked it, which is that some people like 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.680 deadlines or can handle deadlines. Nobody really likes deadlines. 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.640 I need deadlines. If I don't have a deadline, I'm 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:21.760 never I'm never doing. 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:25.520 It me too, So it's like there, so they're very 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:29.560 smart people who kind of wash out in their first 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.880 job in journalism because there's an enormous amount of pressure 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:34.120 to just kind of get it on the page and 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.840 get it, get it up, and some of us kind 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.240 of thrive in that environment. For sure, I've thrived on it, 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.920 and it kind of, you know, went from there, and 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:47.640 you know it kind of you know, you sort of 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:49.440 realize that you sort of have a talent for it, 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.120 and obviously there's a lot to learn. I feel that 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:55.440 writing is one of those skills that you're it's it's 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:57.800 you're constantly kind of getting better at it. You should 0:02:57.800 --> 0:02:59.760 always try to get better at it. So I look 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:04.440 at it like that, and then, like you know, over time, 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.639 I guess I kind of got my first break out 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.360 of what's known as the trade publications by getting a 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.560 job with someone called the New York Sun. Sorry, now 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:13.560 that was before. 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:15.160 The time the New York Sun. Yeah, I was. 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.000 I was one of the OG's from the New York Sign. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.320 But I actually before that, I was at the Forward, 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.880 which is the oldest Jewish newspaper in New York. And 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.440 that was when Seth Lipsky was still the editor, and 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.560 Seth became a mentor, and so I had that job. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:34.880 And then the workman circle booted Seth Lipsky and he 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.160 started the New York Sun. And then I in that 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.560 kind of interregnum, I was the State Department correspondent for UPI, 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.320 which is an old wire service. It's maybe still around, 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.000 but it used to be like the rival of the AP. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.720 So that was an amazing opportunity for me as a 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.760 young journalist to travel with the Secretary of State to 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.120 go to all these different countries and kind of my 0:03:56.200 --> 0:04:00.040 introduction into kind of big time journalism. And then I 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.200 started writing for The New Republic and the Weekly Standard 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:05.560 and a little bit for the National Review. And I 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:07.280 was at the New York Sun. So you just sort 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.480 of that's a career path, and I guess my next 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.840 break after that. I went to the New York Sun 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.240 ended its print run and had to lay off a 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.320 lot of people. In two thousand and eight, right around 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.760 the financial crisis, I went to the Washington Times. I 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.360 did very well there under John Solomon, who was the 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.320 editor at the time. He was picked up by Tina 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.080 Brown's Daily Beast when right when they were acquiring Newsweek. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.480 So I got hired at Daily Beast News. I remember that, yeah, 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.800 And that was another kind of big break for me. 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:39.279 And I did that for a while and then Bloomberg 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:41.919 made me a columnist and that was that was a 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.880 wonderful gig and then that you know, eventually, you know, 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.760 we parted ways and I started a podcast originally called 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.200 The re Education and now it's called Breaking History. And 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.680 once Barry Wise started the Free Press, I wasn't in 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:57.919 the first wave of hires, but I was writing for 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.760 it a lot. And then I started at the Free 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:05.080 Press January twenty twenty four, and I had to say, 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.720 it's it's it reminds me a lot of being you know, 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.599 at the Young Daily Beast Daily Beasts not great now, 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.440 but yeah, when I was there, it was a really 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:15.800 exciting place. You know, it was like, right, there's a 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:17.359 lot of energy, and that's that's kind of like what 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.880 the free press feels like. So it's nice to have 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.560 to be part of like a growing, thriving publication. 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:27.960 If the free press is killing it, I mean, I 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.360 don't know any publication that's, you know, anything that's come 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.640 out in the last you know, decade that's doing anything 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:35.200 near what they're doing. 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:36.360 It's it's amazing to. 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.680 In some ways it's like easy for us, right, I mean, 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:44.600 because the big the big outlets which have more resources, 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.159 still won't like touch certain stories, like you think they'd 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.200 learn the lesson, you know, so are like we have. 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:52.880 The New York Post of course. 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:54.480 Well no, no, the New York Post. I'm saying, like 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:58.240 the Time in the Washington Post, it's like they still 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:04.920 are kind of giving you the same slanted I mean, 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.200 I don't know that Time story on like BB trying 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:09.080 to prolong the war. 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:15.000 I mean I've seen that story in exactly Israeli outlets, 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.279 Like that is not a news story. It's just they 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:19.240 thought it was new and they repackaged it for. 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.200 Cal and like that's just one example. But I'm saying, 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.279 is that, Okay, fine, I expect that in the Nation 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.200 or drop Site or already in or something like that. 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.800 Those are those are ideological outlets. The Times, though it's 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.000 still kind of pretending to be like all the news 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.760 that's fit to print, right, you know, and it's not 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.400 that's a that's an opinion piece kind of masquerading as 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:45.080 front page. Is Also we have a I think there's 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:49.760 a built an advantage for I don't want to say alternative, 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.960 but like just normy publications. 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.120 Normally Normany is a great word for it. 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.520 Yeah, Like the other podcast is called normally and that's 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.039 the that's the idea that Mary News, you know, with 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:04.000 Mary Katherine Ham. 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:06.240 That's wow. I love I love that podcast and I 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.960 loved you two together. Yeah, Mary, Catherine is so great, So. 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:09.800 Thanks so much. 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:10.640 Great Twitter. 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.480 You refer to yourself as a dilettante, but I don't 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:16.200 see you like that at all. I see you as 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.520 a very serious foreign policy guy who is not just 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:23.400 dabbling and not just learning topics overnight. And you know 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.720 the way we all become experts on X on any 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.040 any new topic, like you seem you seem kind of 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:29.720 the real thing. 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:32.720 Well, thank you. When I say dilettant, what I mean 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.600 is I have a lot of interests that I want 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.240 to write, and you know, I've been doing it for 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:44.360 a long time now. So the I compared to somebody 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:48.720 who I don't know studied at Princeton University Turkish and 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.160 Arabic and I don't I can't compare to that to 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:52.560 writing about the Middle East, but I know a lot 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.920 of I don't even rate that anyway. So that's kind 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.480 of what I meant in that respect. But dileton is 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.520 not a bad thing. It means you're no, It's not 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.120 it's you're curious, it's it's I don't want you shouldn't 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:07.320 be an irresponsible dilaton. You shouldn't like allow chat ept 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:11.440 to be your researcher. You should read books. That's very important, 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.800 reading books like as opposed to But so I do that. 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.680 But at the same time, my my role models for 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:23.840 people like Christopher Hitchens or the kind of essaysts intellectual journalists. 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.200 That's what I aspire in some ways to be. And 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:28.640 that's kind of how I look at what I'm trying 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.080 to do. And nobody would say there's a difference between 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:35.520 reading I don't know, like there's a difference between reading 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.680 Robert Conquest, who kind of wrote the definitive history of 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.199 the Soviet Union before the collapse the SVIT versus somebody 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.400 who's going to write like really like a journalist is 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.000 going to write really well about it. There's different things 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.320 like historians. I have too much respect for what good 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.120 historians do. It's a lot of very bad historians right now. 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:52.640 But I of. 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:58.280 Course historians, well there are I'm like, sadly like academic 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:03.280 historians like I'm But so that's that's kind of what 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:03.800 I mean by it. 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:05.600 But thank you for saying that. I do try to. 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:07.400 I mean, like, you know, first of all, you've been writing. 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:08.880 If you write about this stuff for a long time, 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.880 you really kind of get to know it. It does help. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.120 I have people out of these places I've even you know, 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:16.880 I used to say up into all the access of 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.240 evil countries as a throwback reference. 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.920 Now but I have Yeah, we're going to take a 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.760 quick break and be right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.160 So any other paths that you would have chosen, Like, 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:33.200 were you always going to be a writer? 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:35.720 Was there a plan B in case that didn't work out? 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.640 I don't know if there was a plan B. I 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.800 love music and I played piano, and I've played music 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.880 since I was six, maybe before then. My parents want 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.360 a piano in our house, and it was, you know great, 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.319 So in that respect, I played. You know, if I 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.160 would have like stuck with it, I could see myself 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.520 as being a musician. And I think about that now 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.920 because I love making AI songs on studio and it's 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.439 like one of my favorite activities. So in my podcast, 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.000 I every every podcast has at least one original AI song. Wow, 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:15.680 that's about that's cool topic. Yeah, So I could see 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.520 myself of maybe being a musician. The problem is that 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.760 it's such a risky kind of proposition. 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:23.440 That's less of a plan B than it is like 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:25.040 a subplan A. 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.960 But yeah, I mean, but I love I love music. 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.920 Plan b's are usually like I would be an accountant. 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.839 Right, sure something. At one point I really wanted me 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.480 to go to law school, and I didn't do that. Yeah, 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:41.440 in part, like I just didn't do it because I 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.760 just know I don't have the kind of personality. There's 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.440 a certain kind of personality that you have to have. Yeah, 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.600 And I again, I have friends who are lawyers. I 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.080 respect what lawyers do. I'm not gonna get lawyer jokes 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:54.280 for me. I like being a journalist because we get 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:58.400 to like kind of criticize at least our generation. I 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.400 should say, the journalists that have come up in recent years, 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.959 not all of them, but a lot of them are 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.520 not in my view, they're like kind of they're not 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.800 really journalists. How do I put it? Like the journalistic 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.000 instinct is is that if there's a if there's an 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:15.439 interest group or a pressure group that says you shouldn't 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.800 talk about X, the journalists can talk about it, like, well, 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:24.680 let's find out why not not to criticize other journalists 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.440 to talk about X because of the pressure group and 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:29.840 by the way, the entire trans debate. That can sort 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.360 of sum it up, right, There were a series of 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.480 pieces that were done basically saying, look at these people, 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.240 who are you know, questioning youth, gentermdicine or whatever. I'm like, yeah, 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.680 that's our freaking job, and or like there. I don't know, 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:44.280 this is now kind of an old thing, but like 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.040 a few I don't know, six seven, six years ago, 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.319 when the social media companies were completely out of control, 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.760 there was like a unit of NBC News that would 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:57.720 just like report on average citizens, right and say like, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.000 why haven't you banned this account? And that's not journals 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.280 and that's snitching. So for me, like I. 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.120 Just the NBC News, I could think of like New 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.960 York Times articles about average citizens who might have done 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:12.800 something wrong in their lives. 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.400 I remember a girl who used the N word. 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.440 With an A at the end to you know, to 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.360 be exuberant, and the New York Times wrote a whole 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.800 piece about her, including you know, a guy who held 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:27.440 onto that recording to specifically ruin her life. She was 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.440 a nobody, I don't even know her name. She lost 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.960 her college acceptance and you know, just it. 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.520 Was normal or The Washington posted that piece about these 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.400 two people who went to a party and they had. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.080 A kind of Halloween party, right Halloween. 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.200 Party with an inappropriate costume, and then like seven years 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.679 later they're like, you know, they were going to ruin 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:49.040 your life. And to me, that's like, Okay, that's right, 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.960 that's stossy journalism. That's like, that's like yeah, communist block journal. 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.319 It get into line journalism exactly. 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.800 So I'm not interested in that. And I understand because 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.079 that was I mean, I think we're hopefully turning a corner. 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.160 I understand why journalism has a bad reputation among Americans 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.640 because they're associated with that kind of thing. But for me, 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:15.360 the spirit of journalism is robust, passionate debate. Newsrooms should 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.080 be places where, you know, occasionally people will like throw 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.120 things at each other and scream at the top of 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.640 their ones at a story meeting because they completely disagree 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.679 with him. That to me is great. I like that, yeah, 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:31.440 And that's why you know, I don't have a to 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.960 me like, right now, I'm concerned, as I think you 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:38.880 might be, about the turn on the right to embrace 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.160 the anti Israel anti let's call it anti Semitism in 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:45.480 some cases of the left, like that's that kind of 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:50.000 horseshoe is disturbing to me. But I also want to 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:51.800 always kind of keep in mind, like I don't think 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.320 just because I happen to be pro Israel that there 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.360 shouldn't be certain topics that are off limits. Like yeah, sure, 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.920 let's let's float in to you how much food was 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.640 allowed into Gaza during various points of the war. That's fine. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.240 Like I'm sure the israeiling, I'm sure the ideaf makes mistakes. 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:10.280 I'm sure there have been. 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:15.080 Yeah, I mean sure, I would say I criticize Israel 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:16.199 from the other side, like. 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.800 Why are sometimes you know, I don't know, I just 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:21.960 don't want to see like kind of our side of it, 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.840 so to speak, adopting the same kind of things, and 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:27.320 like this is like constantly, of. 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.840 Course you should question, of course, but it becomes like, 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.600 you know, I mean, my audience knows that I record 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.360 these foreign advance but we're recording this during the time 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:40.640 where Masad is allegedly, you know, bribing everyone in the country, 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.200 and Donald Trump is probably suspect also because of the 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:45.120 whole Epstein thing. 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.080 And it's like there is literally zero evidence for this. 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:54.320 Let's talk about this. I'm with you there, yeah, but 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:58.160 but let's let's be totally let's put all of our 0:14:58.200 --> 0:14:58.960 cards on the table here. 0:14:59.040 --> 0:14:59.360 Okay. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.240 When Pam Bondi comes into office as the Attorney General 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.680 and says, the first thing we're going to do is 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.640 release I have the Epstein right here. Yeah, Okay, I'm sorry, 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:13.520 stop playing with my emotions. Okay. And second of all, 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.200 I am not a hater of Cash Betel by any stretch. 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.520 I think he did Yeoman's work on Russiagate. I think 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.560 some of his post Reussigate media stuff. I don't agree 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:24.920 with it. Maybe it's like hyperbolic, over the top, but like, 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.200 I'm not here to like crap on Cash Ptel. But 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.200 Cash Hotel is somebody who, when he was out of 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.520 government was like very much believing that there was a 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.680 cover up on Epstein, and he has to do more 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.960 than just do a one eighty Plaine. I went in 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.880 and I agreed with you. Yes, I finally got the 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.000 keys to the kingdom and I saw everything was wrong. 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:48.600 It turns out I was wrong, and that just goes 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.720 to show you, and so I apologize for being wrong. 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.320 I went ahead over my skis and let me walk 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.160 you through and really meet these people, because I think 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.040 Cash Hotel and Dan Bongino have a lot of credibility 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:05.680 with magnation, and there's an opportunity now to really do it, 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.640 Like go on your show, Go on, Megan Kelly, I 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.520 don't know, go on one of these shows and give them 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.720 two hours, right, and walk us through what you thought 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.840 going in and what you ended up learning. Because when 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.400 there's a vacuum like this, of course people are going 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:25.440 to expect the worst and suspect the worst and they 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:27.800 and that's that's my criticism. 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:32.040 You're fully right, yeah, but of course it's the Masad 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.360 part that I find, like you know. 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.200 Anything to do with it? 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:42.960 You know, obviously Massad. I don't think Massad is doing 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:48.840 blackmail operations against Americans, which is what the Jeffrey Epstein 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:50.400 against Donald Trump. 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:51.720 It's not even just Americans. 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.480 It would have to be Donald like it would have 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:54.960 to be our president, right. 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.920 But the Masad is an intelligence organization, a very lethal 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.760 and effective intelligence organization has juststrated in the Twelve Day 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:06.000 War and before with pager operations and so forth. They're 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.640 in the skullduggery business. What I want to say here 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:10.960 is I don't think that they're doing this against like 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:16.399 American politicians or American celebrities, And there is no evidence 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.840 to suggest at this point, you know, other than like 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.240 kind of throwaway comment that was made by a journalists 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.400 like I recently went through like reading like how did 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.159 this thing start? But on the other hand, if you 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:35.159 just wanted to look at well, does do intelligence organizations? 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.959 Does the Masad conduct what are known as honey traps? 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:38.560 Of course they do? 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:39.440 Sure, Sure. 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:42.800 Do they engage in blackmail? Of course they do. That's 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.760 probably one of the ways they were able to penetrate Iran. 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.520 I mean, it's like and as somebody who's written a 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:50.879 lot about the Masad over the years, and you know 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.000 is read a lot of books and talk to x 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.879 Masad people and a couple current Masade people over the 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:59.320 you know, as a journalist, I don't have like you know, 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.040 if you if you just want to sort of say 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.320 Massa's an intelligence agency and as an intelligence agency, it's 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:08.320 it's up to its neck and a bunch of skullduggery. 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.200 I agree, But that's not what you know, what I'm saying, 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:13.880 that doesn't mean that's not that's not what they're saying. 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.560 They're kind of going much further. Yeah, and there are 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:22.000 lots of unanswered questions about Jeffrey Epstein that I still 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.919 have lots of skepticism about. I still am like not 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.439 satisfied that he was that the guards just happened to 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.280 not catch him killing himself in the cell. I also 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.400 have come to really want to love a good financial 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:39.800 reporter to explain to me this hedge fund with only 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.400 one client, what the hell is that he's got gazillions 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.520 of dollars that he's supposedly managing. He has no experience 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.119 really as a financial manager. Who are his clients? How 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:50.800 did this happen? We're talking about a lot of money, 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.399 So it might be and I'm just throwing this out 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.320 as a possibility that there is some perhaps maybe not 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.360 even masade. It might be CIA. Might be. This might 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.960 have been a sort of intelligence agency slush fund. This 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.800 happened before what I want to try to do. And 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.800 I did an episode of my podcast Breaking History on 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.359 it was about JFK and his assassination, and I did 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.480 not come up by saying I said, I don't think 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:19.200 I think that Lee rvy Oswald did it. And he 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.119 was alone assassin, which is boring at this point, But 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.879 what I said is I kind of understand why so 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.200 many Americans didn't believe it then and don't believe it now. 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.520 Yeah, they've been lied to about other things too. 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:37.399 Exactly so. And so when you have Bongino, Bondie and 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:43.400 Patel doing a one to eighty and not explaining why, well, like, okay, 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:45.760 I don't believe it. I don't think there's much evidence 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.359 of this, you know, Epstein Masad stuff. But I also 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.840 kind of understand, like, wait a second, even these people 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:53.800 are not being straight with us. 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:58.479 Yeah, all right, switching gears, let's switch gears. What do 0:19:58.520 --> 0:19:59.280 you worry about? 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.120 That's a great question. I have a four year old daughter, 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.120 so of course I worry about the future. Were all 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:06.800 kinds of reasons for her, little things like you know, 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.000 she's at the age now when we are walking in 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.480 the city she can break away from me when we're 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:13.560 across the street. That makes me crazy. So that's like 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.640 an immediate thing. But in the more house for sense, 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:20.439 like I want her to have the kinds of things 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:22.200 that I guess I took for granted in my life, 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:23.480 Like I want her to be able to go to 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.359 college without being indoctrinated, without being intimidated because she's Jewish. 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:31.800 I don't want her to, Like, I don't want her 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:36.320 to I wanted to be able to, like have romantic 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:40.560