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Speaker 1: I'm George Severis and I'm Julia Claire, and this is

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Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination

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Speaker 1: with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one

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Speaker 1: aspect of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking

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Speaker 1: about the single place most associated with the Kennedy family,

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Speaker 1: their famous Hyannasport home.

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Speaker 2: The Kennedy Compound, as it came to be known, was,

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Speaker 2: in many ways the beating heart and refuge of this

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Speaker 2: sprawling and immensely powerful family, dogged by fame and tragedy.

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Speaker 1: And we thought who better to guide us through those

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Speaker 1: hallowed halls than Rolling Stone Features director Kate's Story, author

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Speaker 1: of the great twenty twenty three book White House by

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Speaker 1: the Sea, A Century of the Kennedy's at Hayanna'sport. You

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Speaker 1: might remember Kate from the George Magazine episode where she

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Speaker 1: walked us through an oral history of the magazine that JFK.

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Speaker 1: Junior ran in the nineties in New York. She's our

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Speaker 1: first returning guest. We're so excited to have her back. Kate,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the United States of Kennedy. It's so

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Speaker 1: good to see you again.

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Speaker 3: So good to see you again. Thanks for having me back.

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Speaker 1: Of course, So last time you were here, we were

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Speaker 1: talking about George Magazine and you wrote a piece for Esquire,

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Speaker 1: if I remember crect it was sort of like an

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Speaker 1: oral history of George Magazine, and you talked to people

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Speaker 1: that worked there, and it was George Magazine for anyone

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Speaker 1: who has listened to that episode is the magazine the

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Speaker 1: JFK Junior ran in New York in the nineties. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think I knew this at the time, but

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Speaker 1: through that piece you found your way into more Kennedy

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Speaker 1: research and like a growing Kennedy interests, and you ended

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Speaker 1: up in twenty twenty signing on to write a book

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Speaker 1: about the Kennedy Compound, which is now out, and I

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Speaker 1: have it here with me White House by the Sea.

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Speaker 1: I have it opened to the page to the photos

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing Andy Warhol and Grace Jones at the Shreiver

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Speaker 1: Schwarzenegger wedding, which is one of I think probably my

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Speaker 1: favorite photo in the book.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, just off the bat, what about the

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Speaker 1: Kenny Compound sparked your interest? And why choose that as

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Speaker 1: like the focus of a book.

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Speaker 4: It always seemed like such a mysterious place that kind

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Speaker 4: of would come up over and over again and stories

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Speaker 4: about the Kennedy's. And I had a conversation with a

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Speaker 4: book agent after writing the George piece, and she was like,

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Speaker 4: it was it's my dream to have a Kennedy Compound book,

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Speaker 4: And as soon as she said it, it was like, that's

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Speaker 4: I would love to read that book. I don't know

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Speaker 4: if I'm the one to write it, because it felt

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Speaker 4: like just an impossible thing to break into. Hyna support

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Speaker 4: is such an incredibly private place. The neighbors are really

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Speaker 4: really protective of the Kennedy's, the ones who love them,

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Speaker 4: the ones who hate them like it. There's just such

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Speaker 4: a sense of these are our neighbors, this is our community,

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Speaker 4: just such a kind of a wall around it, so

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Speaker 4: that curiosity about what is it really like there. There's

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Speaker 4: also just fissedu a longevity to the interest in the

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Speaker 4: Kennedy Compound. The Kennedy's moved there in the twenties, and

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Speaker 4: of course it was like such a centerpiece of JFK's campaigning,

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Speaker 4: Like a lot of the most beautiful iconic photos taken

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Speaker 4: of him and Jackie are in high innes support and

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Speaker 4: sailboats behind the compound and things like that, but it

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Speaker 4: continues to be a.

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Speaker 3: Point of interest.

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Speaker 4: To the photo that you pointed out that was taken

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Speaker 4: in the eighties, you know, things are still happening there today.

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Speaker 4: So the fact that there's just been this kind of

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Speaker 4: long tail of interest in the Kennedy Compound drew me

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Speaker 4: to it. I also am really interested in family dynamics,

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Speaker 4: kind of generational dynamics, so I felt like a really

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Speaker 4: interesting thing to dive into there. And just the chance

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Speaker 4: to tell the story of a family through a place

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Speaker 4: was also really interesting to me. To really kind of

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Speaker 4: anchor them in this one place that's not Boston, it's

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Speaker 4: not Washington, DC, it's not Dallas, this really private place

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Speaker 4: of theirs. I felt like it would give kind of

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Speaker 4: new insight into the family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so in terms of just the basic facts, like

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Speaker 1: can you describe what the Kennedy Compound looks like and

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Speaker 1: what its origin story is?

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Speaker 4: Yes, it does not look like what you imagine unless

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Speaker 4: you've been there, Like, it really is not what you

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Speaker 4: think of when you think of a compound. I had

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Speaker 4: never been there before I started working on this book.

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Speaker 4: I grew up in Florida. You think of a compound.

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Speaker 4: You think of huge walls and maybe a guard person

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Speaker 4: or the real walled off from the world type of place,

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Speaker 4: and the Kennedy Compound is definitely not that. JFKs parents

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Speaker 4: bought the first house in the compound, which is on

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Speaker 4: the water, and they first rented it and then bought

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Speaker 4: it and renovated it in the late nineteen twenties, and

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Speaker 4: so that was really the heart of the compound. This

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Speaker 4: is just a family house. They bought it to spend

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Speaker 4: their summers there, and then they ended up buying the

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Speaker 4: house behind it. It's on a very short street in

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Speaker 4: high Enna Support, which is a neighborhood in Hyenas on

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Speaker 4: kip Cod. I should back up and say we're talking

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Speaker 4: about kip Cod. There's a very tiny street in Hyena Support.

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Speaker 4: They bought the house on the end of it. The

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Speaker 4: family ended up buying the house behind it for Bobby,

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Speaker 4: so they had the two houses back to back, and

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Speaker 4: then JFK and his new wife Jackie ended up buying

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Speaker 4: the house that was kind of caddy corner to those

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Speaker 4: two houses. So the three houses are connected by a lawn,

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Speaker 4: but there's no wall up. It's not one piece of property.

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Speaker 4: These are just three houses that were bought up over

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Speaker 4: a period of time, and the press ended up calling

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Speaker 4: it the Kennedy Compound because it just came up during

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Speaker 4: the campaign. It was just a shorthand of you know,

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Speaker 4: said the photographer, to the Kennedy Compound. And it's really

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Speaker 4: stuck all these years and it's now in the National

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Speaker 4: Historic Register. Those three houses are the official Kennedy Compound houses.

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Speaker 4: But it's like I said, in Highenna Support, which is

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Speaker 4: a neighborhood, and Hynas is one of the bigger towns

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Speaker 4: in Cape Cod, the Highna Support is a very small

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Speaker 4: little neighborhood and there is.

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Speaker 3: Really not much to it. There are no stores, there

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Speaker 3: are no restaurants.

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Speaker 4: It's really just close together little summer houses, not little beautiful,

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Speaker 4: wonderful summer houses, bigger than any house that I would

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Speaker 4: ever be able to afford. These are not like McMansions.

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Speaker 4: These are summer houses. And yeah, so that's the compound

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Speaker 4: and Highnasport.

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Speaker 1: What was it like?

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Speaker 2: I know you said you had never been there before,

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Speaker 2: you had never been to Hyenna'sport. What was it like

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Speaker 2: your first time going? Yes, it's funny my first time going.

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Speaker 2: I went in November, which was the worst time to

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Speaker 2: go there, Like it's.

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Speaker 3: So gray, there's nobody around. That was not a time

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Speaker 3: to be on the Cape.

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Speaker 4: I put the directions into my phone and I just

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Speaker 4: wrote Hyenna Support and I arrived and it was a

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Speaker 4: suburban looking street, just houses, and normally when you're going

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Speaker 4: somewhere to new I don't know if you do this

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Speaker 4: that you put the place in and you arrive on

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Speaker 4: main Street and there are coffee shops and their restaurants

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Speaker 4: and shops and things like that. And I just arrived

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Speaker 4: to this street that there's nothing else around in November,

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Speaker 4: and so what I ended up doing that first weekend,

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Speaker 4: I was really curious to see if people were going

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Speaker 4: to talk to me. It was very, very unsure if

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Speaker 4: anybody was going to talk to me at all. I

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Speaker 4: ended up going in and out of shops and restaurants

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Speaker 4: and Hyenna's Highna sports neighbor And there's a wonderful museum

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Speaker 4: in Hyenna's called the JFK. Hyanna's Museum, which really tells

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Speaker 4: the history of the family there. It's a very cute, wonderful,

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Speaker 4: great place to go if you ever visiting the Cape.

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Speaker 4: I went there, introduced myself and told them what I

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Speaker 4: was thinking about working on, and they said they would

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Speaker 4: help it any way they could. They let me look

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Speaker 4: through a lot of their old exhibits, and then I

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Speaker 4: just started talking to neighbors and to say, do you

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Speaker 4: know this family, what do you think?

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Speaker 3: People were willing to talk, People were.

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Speaker 4: Willing to say, you know, they were curious about what's

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Speaker 4: the story you want to tell here? But I said,

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Speaker 4: I'm really interested in the history of Piana Sport and

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Speaker 4: how the Kennedys fit into that. The thing I always

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Speaker 4: say about the book is, of course it's a book

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Speaker 4: about the Kennedy's, but it's to me more than that,

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Speaker 4: It's a book about this place. And I really wanted

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Speaker 4: to do the place justice and do the neighbors justice.

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Speaker 4: And some of my most interesting characters in the book,

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Speaker 4: to me, are really the neighbors of the Kennedys and people.

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Speaker 3: Who work there. So those are the stories I wanted

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Speaker 3: to get right.

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Speaker 4: And so that's what I told neighbors and people working

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Speaker 4: around there, and it kind of all snowballed from there.

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Speaker 4: I was really able to crack my way into the

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Speaker 4: community and people were really amazing and sharing their stories

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Speaker 4: with me, and you ended.

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Speaker 1: Up talking to over one hundred people. Right, it's a

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Speaker 1: deeply report. I think there's a way to write a

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Speaker 1: book like this that is only focusing on the mythology

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Speaker 1: of things. And this is really a book that an

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Speaker 1: actual reporter would write. And we read a lot of

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Speaker 1: Kennedy related media on this podcast. Then it really runs

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Speaker 1: the gamut from true fan fiction.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure too.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure too actually factual. So I do is that

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Speaker 1: we appreciate areciate that. Yeah, this book is well researched.

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Speaker 1: So I do want to talk about the neighbors and

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Speaker 1: the staff because to me, that is really what gives

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Speaker 1: the book flavor. And also that's what I always want

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Speaker 1: to know. I mean, we know enough about JFK. But

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Speaker 1: what did the housekeeper have to say to me? That's

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Speaker 1: the most interesting part. But in terms of the Kennedy themselves,

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Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about the Kennedys as

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Speaker 1: non waspy Catholic outsiders in this community early on in

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Speaker 1: the twenties and thirties, and what the process was like

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Speaker 1: in terms of first being rejected and then defiantly, you know,

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Speaker 1: making it their own.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So they started off looking for a summer cottage

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Speaker 4: in Cohasset, Massachusetts, and they rented for a few summers there,

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Speaker 4: and Joe Kennedy's, as the story goes, applied to be

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Speaker 4: a member of the golf club there, and the family's

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Speaker 4: Irish Catholic. There were very few Irish Catholics who were

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Speaker 4: members of the golf club at that time. He applied

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Speaker 4: to get in, and the way the family tells the stories,

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Speaker 4: they didn't even give him the dignity of response.

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Speaker 3: He just never heard back. And so they wanted a place.

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Speaker 4: Where the family could grow up there really spend summer

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Speaker 4: after summer, and so they kept going further and further

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Speaker 4: away from Boston in these different summer communities, and they

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Speaker 4: ended up it was actually Rose Kennedy, the matriarch of

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Speaker 4: the family, ended up going on a shopping trip to

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Speaker 4: Hyenas Main Street and that was the first time the

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Speaker 4: family was ever in Hyennas and they ended up renting

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Speaker 4: this house in High Enna Support and Joe eventually was

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Speaker 4: accepted as a member of the golf club there and

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Speaker 4: they ended up buying the house and moving there. But

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Speaker 4: that really wasn't the end of that kind of exclusion

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Speaker 4: of the family. They moved there and he was accepted

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Speaker 4: into the golf club. But there was always this sense

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Speaker 4: of you know them versus us. There's a longtime neighbor family,

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Speaker 4: the Tennies that lived across the street, who really were

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Speaker 4: not happy to have an Irish Catholic family living there.

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Speaker 4: The Kennedy kids were always trying to draw the daughter

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Speaker 4: Nancy into coming to church with them on Sundays, and

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Speaker 4: she would go because she wanted to be with her friends,

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Speaker 4: and her father hated that.

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Speaker 3: And then there was also Kennedy.

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Speaker 4: She's a really interesting figure, I think, but she really

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Speaker 4: was shy and held herself back and didn't really get

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Speaker 4: to know the neighbors for a long time, so they

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Speaker 4: saw her as stand offish and aloof and they saw

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Speaker 4: Joe as flashy new money. So they were viewed as

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Speaker 4: the Irish Catholic new money in town was the view

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Speaker 4: of the Kennedy's for a long time. The kids very

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Speaker 4: much were immediately a part of the community and had

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Speaker 4: very good friends and fit in quickly.

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Speaker 2: I was so interested when I was first reading extra

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Speaker 2: from of your book about Joe specifically, and I'm just

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Speaker 2: very interested in Joe as a person and as this

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Speaker 2: kind of outsized mob boss figure that he has in history.

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Speaker 2: What was his relationship like to Hyanna's Port after this,

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Speaker 2: because I've heard a lot about exactly what you just

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Speaker 2: said about the origins of it in the twenties, but

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Speaker 2: he lived for a long time. What was his relationship

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Speaker 2: like to that community throughout the rest of his life.

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Speaker 4: His anchor and his priority was certainly always his kids

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Speaker 4: and his family in terms of the social center for him.

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Speaker 4: They really didn't want that house to be a hosting

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Speaker 4: house like it was really where the family could be together.

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Speaker 3: And that was very true for Joe. He wasn't there

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Speaker 3: for a lot of the summers or in the early days.

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Speaker 4: He was working first in banking and then in Hollywood,

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Speaker 4: and when he was home, it was very much focused

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Speaker 4: on keeping the kids in line and having the kids compete.

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Speaker 4: And there's a scene in the book about you know,

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Speaker 4: he wasn't a sailor himself, but he would go out

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Speaker 4: into the water and follow the kids around sailing and

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Speaker 4: be like, you know, go faster, go faster. Second isn't

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Speaker 4: good enough. So he was very focused on his kids

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Speaker 4: when he was there. One of the contradictions in the

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Speaker 4: book and about the family in general, is this, it

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Speaker 4: was this kind of sacred family place. But Joe Kennedy

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Speaker 4: also brought the woman he was having an affair with,

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Speaker 4: the actress Glorious Swanson, too High in a Sport, which

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Speaker 4: I was beyond shock to find out because this was

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Speaker 4: his wife's place, like he bought this house over his

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Speaker 4: wife and his kids. Really, Rose was there every summer.

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Speaker 4: It was such a sanctuary for her. And I found an,

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Speaker 4: you know, old recording that he brought Gloria there.

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Speaker 3: There's this scene of her arriving and all the neighbors

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Speaker 3: with Spring.

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Speaker 4: So there's one definitely firmly reported instance of her being

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Speaker 4: a highness support during the period of them having an affair,

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Speaker 4: which she wrote about in her memoir, And David Nasa,

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Speaker 4: who's the biographer of Joe Kennedy, confirmed as well that

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Speaker 4: it was during these years they were having an affair

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Speaker 4: that he brought her there, and then the neighbor kids

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Speaker 4: remember her coming and seeing her car come in and out.

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Speaker 3: When Rose would go to Europe. I found that quite shocking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it is just such a Kennedy classic

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Speaker 1: to flaunt your affairs, to basically want to have it

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Speaker 1: both ways and be this symbol of integrity and patriotism

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Speaker 1: and also be just very clearly embroiled in fifteen scandals

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Speaker 1: at any kind of time.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, we'll be back with more United States of Kennedy

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Speaker 2: after this break, and we're back with more United States

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Speaker 2: of Kennedy.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned sailing, and I know that you yourself

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Speaker 1: did a little bit of sailing in preparation for this book,

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Speaker 1: because it was such a part of their culture that

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Speaker 1: when you asked to talk to was it Ted Kennedy

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Speaker 1: that you went, Max Ali, MAXI, yes, Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about gaining that access to the Kennedys themselves?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Kennedys themselves. It was a funny dynamic.

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Speaker 4: Carrie Kennedy was the first one I spoke to, and

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Speaker 4: she was really wonderful and welcoming and open and invited

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Speaker 4: me to her home and shared photos with me, and

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Speaker 4: she was willing to talk to me. She introduced me

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Speaker 4: to her brothers and her cousins, and so it's snowballed

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Speaker 4: from there.

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Speaker 1: And for anyone who doesn't know Kerry Kennedy, I'm visualizing

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Speaker 1: the family in my head. Yes, she is.

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Speaker 4: One of the children of Bobby and Ethel Kennedy. And

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Speaker 4: she runs the RK Human Rights Foundation now too, so

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Speaker 4: she's one of the most public facing members of the family.

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Speaker 4: Now most of them are not public facing these days,

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Speaker 4: with some very notable exceptions, which she is public facing.

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Speaker 4: And who could you be talking about it? I know

305
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:02,959
Speaker 4: you might have been hearing them in the news lately,

306
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:04,440
Speaker 4: but yet. So I talked to Carry first, and then

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Speaker 4: she introduced me to some of her family members.

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Speaker 3: But it was a lot of hesitation.

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Speaker 4: There's been so many books written about Kennedy, so many articles,

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Speaker 4: and so there was a big hesitation from the family

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Speaker 4: of a talk to you for a few minutes, or

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Speaker 4: you know, who are you type of thing. Max Kennedy

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Speaker 4: is a huge presence in Highness Port. One of the

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Speaker 4: first times I went there, there was a guy walking

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Speaker 4: down the street who looked exactly like at Kennedy, like

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Speaker 4: he had the smile. I later found out that was Max.

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Speaker 4: He's just always like walking around. He's just there all

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Speaker 4: the time. He's a real fixture there. He ignored me

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Speaker 4: for months and months and months, so I called him,

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Speaker 4: I sent him emails, just ignored me for months, and

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Speaker 4: then I finally heard back from him.

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Speaker 3: It was one of the first Falls.

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Speaker 4: I was working on the book, and he said, okay, listen,

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Speaker 4: I'll talk to you, but it has to be on

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Speaker 4: my sailboat, and it has to be this weekend because

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Speaker 4: I was shutting down the house. So I live in

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Speaker 4: New Jersey. So I got in my car and drove

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Speaker 4: five hours the next day to go on his sailboat

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Speaker 4: with him. I'd never been sailing before in my life.

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Speaker 4: I was frantically asking, what even what shoes do you

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Speaker 4: wear on a sailboat? What do I need to know?

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Speaker 4: I'm like, boat shooes, I know from my research. I

333
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,520
Speaker 4: was like, I think that you don't want to like

334
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Speaker 4: scuff it with black Eye. I know it makes sense

335
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 4: that you wouldn't I just because of the name. I'm like, well,

336
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Speaker 4: that's what you wear on a boat.

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Speaker 3: But and they do, and they do have white souls exactly.

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Speaker 4: So I just were sneakers, if you sneakers, and like

339
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Speaker 4: four fleeces. It was so cold and so yeah, I

340
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Speaker 4: met him on the dock and he was like, let's go.

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Speaker 3: So we're talking just on this boat.

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Speaker 4: So I had my recorder and obviously it's incredibly windy

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Speaker 4: on a sailboat, and so I was trying to interview

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Speaker 4: him while the big boom is going back and forth

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Speaker 4: over my head, and I was there with his wife, Vicky,

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Speaker 4: who was also lovely, and then two of their friends

347
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Speaker 4: shouting dock at me as it would come, and I'm

348
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Speaker 4: trying to think of intelligent questions to ask him.

349
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Speaker 3: So we did the interview and I was like.

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Speaker 4: But really, I'm sure we're going to keep talking after this.

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Speaker 4: You know, we get off the boat at the dock

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Speaker 4: and he's like, see you, Like that was it. The

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Speaker 4: whole conversation was just on the boat, and I was like, so,

354
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Speaker 4: you know, can we when you get a coffee? And

355
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Speaker 4: he's like, you know, I just wanted you to experience

356
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Speaker 4: the boat and sailing because you're just not going to

357
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Speaker 4: understand our family to understand sailing and with these boasts

358
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,360
Speaker 4: mean to us. And his sister, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, another

359
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,640
Speaker 4: one of Bobby and Ethel's kids, said the same thing

360
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Speaker 4: to me. I'd interviewed her before I talked to Max,

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Speaker 4: and she'd asked me and she's like, oh, where do

362
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 4: you like to go sailing? I was like, I've never

363
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Speaker 4: been sailing. She was like, well, then, how are you

364
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,360
Speaker 4: going to write this book, as she was so confused, like,

365
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,120
Speaker 4: what do you mean You've never been sailing? So that

366
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Speaker 4: is my one and only time I've ever been sailing.

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Speaker 3: How do you not resent these people?

368
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Speaker 1: I mean, I will say, to Julia's point, you're fair

369
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,360
Speaker 1: in your descriptions of them, But there's a wistfulness and

370
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 1: the nostalgia to the book. There are books that are

371
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 1: so damning and critical about the Kennedy's, and this isn't

372
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,720
Speaker 1: one of them. This is really focusing on their family relationships.

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00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,760
Speaker 1: It's not focusing on the scandals, the politics, whatever. How

374
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Speaker 1: did your idea of the Kennedy family evolve during this process?

375
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Speaker 3: I went into it.

376
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Speaker 4: With a real open mind, like I have no course

377
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:51,960
Speaker 4: in this race when it comes to the Kennedy's. I

378
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,240
Speaker 4: didn't go into it wanting to either tear them down

379
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,400
Speaker 4: or to build them up and protect the legacy. Whatever

380
00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,240
Speaker 4: I found was going in the book. I didn't know

381
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,280
Speaker 4: them before. I have not stayed in touch with him

382
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,159
Speaker 4: really since then. So I went into it really open

383
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,439
Speaker 4: eyed as a journalist, and I told that to my

384
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,440
Speaker 4: sources too. I said, if you have something great to

385
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,440
Speaker 4: say about the family, if you have something awful to say,

386
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,159
Speaker 4: about the family. I'm here to listen to you, and

387
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,720
Speaker 4: I'm here to put those stories into this book. The

388
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,920
Speaker 4: thing about Hyenna Support is a lot of the big

389
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,920
Speaker 4: scandals that you associate with the family, they didn't really

390
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 4: happen there. So if like chap Equitic, for example, did

391
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 4: happen on the Cape the Palm Beach, the right the

392
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 4: William Kennedy Smith William.

393
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,560
Speaker 1: Kenny smith On Beach rape case was in the Florida

394
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Speaker 1: Kennedy compound.

395
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, So I did ask everyone that I spoke

396
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 4: to about him if he spent time in Highest Sport,

397
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 4: and he did from time to time, and he was

398
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,159
Speaker 4: spotted there after the rape case with JFK. Junior and

399
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,680
Speaker 4: that was go were whispers about that. But I said,

400
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 4: if you have a story like that that you've heard

401
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 4: of that you want to tell me, I'm here to

402
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 4: listen to those stories as well. But High in a

403
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,160
Speaker 4: Support was really like a family place where the family

404
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 4: went to be together. So a lot of those stories

405
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,199
Speaker 4: that that wasn't really place where they happened. But I

406
00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,000
Speaker 4: went into it truly, truly open eyed.

407
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:00,000
Speaker 3: You.

408
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 2: Over the course of reporting this book, stumbled upon the

409
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 2: fact that before he died Ted Kennedy had been embarking

410
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,880
Speaker 2: on an oral history project related to the compound. Can

411
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit about that?

412
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I love that you're asking about this

413
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 4: because I never get to ned out about this is

414
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 4: such a nerdy journalism research moment. But I had been

415
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,159
Speaker 4: trying to find this source, Dotson Raider, who was a

416
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,679
Speaker 4: family friend, for like months and months and months. Just

417
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,679
Speaker 4: I saw his name in the back of another Kennedy

418
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 4: book of a story was cited to him. So I

419
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,720
Speaker 4: tracked him down for months and months. You had been

420
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 4: a journalist. He'd written for Esquire in a few other magazines.

421
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 4: I had such a hard time finding him. I finally

422
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 4: found him, and he invited me to his home on

423
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 4: that Brest side to tell these wonderful stories about the

424
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,919
Speaker 4: Kennedy family, and it was a great interview. He was

425
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 4: very close friends with a lot of the family and

426
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:50,679
Speaker 4: spent a lot of time in highness support.

427
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 3: And as he was.

428
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,000
Speaker 4: Walking me out the door, he was like, well, tell

429
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 4: the library thanks for sending you, And I was like,

430
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 4: what do you mean, And he assumed that I had

431
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 4: found him through the JFK Library, that they had sent

432
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,479
Speaker 4: him to me. And I had spent a lot of

433
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 4: time working very closely with the library on the research

434
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 4: for the historical documents for this book, and nobody had

435
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,920
Speaker 4: mentioned his name, and I was like, what are you

436
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,879
Speaker 4: talking about? And he was like, I had been working

437
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 4: with Ted Kennedy on this oral history project about the

438
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,679
Speaker 4: Kennedy Compound before he died. And I was like, what

439
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 4: are you talking about there? That doesn't exist anywhere. I'd

440
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,159
Speaker 4: never heard of anything like that, and he was like, no,

441
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 4: I donated to the library.

442
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 1: They must have it.

443
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 3: And he had no copy of it himself.

444
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,119
Speaker 4: It only existed what he gave to the libraries, and

445
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,120
Speaker 4: I think that existed. So I ran home and called

446
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 4: the library and they said, we don't know what you're

447
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,120
Speaker 4: talking about. Weeks later they called me back and they said, okay,

448
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 4: we found it. It was in a closet somewhere in

449
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,680
Speaker 4: the library, but just hadn't been entered into the system,

450
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 4: and things tig months, if not years, to be entered

451
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,680
Speaker 4: into those presidential library systems. That point, I was one

452
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 4: year into a two year contract for the book, and

453
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 4: they were like, there's no way it's going to take

454
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,240
Speaker 4: less than a year to get this done. A month

455
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,120
Speaker 4: before I turned in the book, they called and they

456
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,680
Speaker 4: got all the approvals that they needed, sent me all

457
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 4: of these recordings of these interviews with Ted Kennedy with

458
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 4: the neighbors who had never spoken before, and it was

459
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,160
Speaker 4: just like incredible. So the whole kind of like introduction

460
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 4: of the book is based on one of those interviews

461
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,879
Speaker 4: of Ted Kennedy walking Dotson through this house and sharing

462
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 4: his memories rooms to room, and it was just an

463
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 4: absolute gold mine.

464
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 3: It was so special. So I'm the first researcher who

465
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 3: had access to that.

466
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 1: Wow. I mean, it is very Kennedy to participate in

467
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 1: their own self mythologizing like it is. It does not

468
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,959
Speaker 1: surprise me that there was already an oral history being

469
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 1: made by the people themselves. But speaking of self mythologizing

470
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 1: and of the Kennedy's you know, for lack of a

471
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 1: better word, pr acumen, there is so much intersection between

472
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,199
Speaker 1: the compound and pop culture. I mean, I mentioned the

473
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,359
Speaker 1: photo of Andy Warhol and Grace Jones, but I'm leafing

474
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 1: through the photo section you have here, and there are

475
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,639
Speaker 1: a lot of important historical events both during jfkse presidency

476
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,919
Speaker 1: and afterwards that had some sort of with Hannah Sport.

477
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,800
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit

478
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 1: about some of the most interesting or unexpected celebrities that

479
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 1: have been there, events that have happened on the property

480
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:11,400
Speaker 1: and things like that.

481
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, the eighties were a really fun, kind of surprising

482
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 4: period for me to do research on. And that was

483
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 4: because at that point, like the Kennedys had kind of

484
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 4: fallen out of politics a bit, but at that point

485
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 4: they were celebrities, Like they had gone beyond a political

486
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,199
Speaker 4: family and to really a family of celebrities. So you

487
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 4: have Mariy Schreiver marrying Arnold Schwartzenegger Caroline Kennedy at that point,

488
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 4: there's just so much attention paid to her, in spite

489
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 4: of the fact that she's never really put herself out publicly.

490
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 4: The attention stayed there, But the height of it was

491
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 4: really that Maria Schreiver Arnold Schwartzeneggers wedding, big kind of

492
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 4: public you know, broadcast journalists at that time, and so

493
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 4: she invited this incredibly shiny a list guest list to

494
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 4: the wedding, and so Oprah was there, and Andy Warhol

495
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 4: wrote about it in his diaries being there, and Grace

496
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 4: Joseph was his date, and they made such an entrance together,

497
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 4: the two of them. So that was a very fun,

498
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,239
Speaker 4: very flashy wedding. That was probably the most celebrities who

499
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 4: were there at one time. And then after that, Ted

500
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 4: Kennedy was the one who ended up taking over the

501
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 4: Big House after the death of his mother Rose Kennedy,

502
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 4: and he really started using it as more of a

503
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 4: place to host. The Clintons were there at one point,

504
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 4: and he started having more political events there, which is

505
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 4: where you see some of those names come in.

506
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: Got it.

507
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 1: And there was also there's sort of just like adjacencies

508
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 1: to famous people. Can you talk a little bit about

509
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: the couch the Pope sat on? Yes, he didn't sit

510
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: on it in its current location.

511
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 3: No, and also not when he was pope. It was

512
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 3: before he was pope.

513
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 4: And then Rose Kennedy put a plaque on it to

514
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 4: say like that a pope had sat there and then

515
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,719
Speaker 4: brought it to the in a support house.

516
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 3: So it was a very proud item for her, okay.

517
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: And then there was like some other story about Oprah

518
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 1: a different time she visited where she didn't want to

519
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: play family games.

520
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 3: Yes, what was the story?

521
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 4: The way she told it was that Kennedy family's incredibly

522
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 4: famously competitive, and they're very known for the touch football

523
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 4: on the big lawn that they had there. So Oprah

524
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 4: was invited to come with Mry Schriver, who was a

525
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 4: good friend of hers, and she wrote that Oprah Endow

526
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 4: writing that she was so exhausted from the competition she

527
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 4: ended up hiding in a bathroom.

528
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 1: And I mean to exhaust Oprah, someone who is a

529
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: harder worker than any of the Kennedy's company. So it

530
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: really goes to show you that it's a unique and

531
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: special family.

532
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

533
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

534
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: And wasn't Taylor Swift there at one point as well.

535
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, So Taylor dated one of the Kennedy's a number

536
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 4: of years ago, ended up buying the house across from

537
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 4: the big House, like on this tiny little street.

538
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 3: She ended up buying the house.

539
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 4: She never really lived there, so she bought it and

540
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 4: ended up renovating it and sold it a number of

541
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 4: years later at a huge profit. So she really didn't

542
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 4: spend time in that house, but she was dating Connor Kennedy,

543
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,959
Speaker 4: and so the neighbors and people very much remember her

544
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 4: being there, and there were these very Kennedy asked looking

545
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 4: photos of her drive forth walking around in her bathing suit.

546
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 3: But the neighbors loved her.

547
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 4: They were very excited to see her there as she

548
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 4: went out for ice cream with the family at the

549
00:23:58,840 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 4: ice cream shop.

550
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 1: In the one time, I do want to say, we

551
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: did a whole episode about Taylor Swift and Connor Kennedy

552
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: with fran Hofner, who's a Vulture writer, and she really

553
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 1: walked us through the sort of mythology of the Kennedy

554
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 1: era for Swifties and for the Swiftie fandom. It's interesting.

555
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift apparently has a long time obsession with the

556
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: Kennedy's yes, and so it was seen as a kind

557
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 1: of vulturous for her to, in the words of the

558
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: more suspicious anti Swift people, ingratiate herself with the family.

559
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: But apparently they loved her.

560
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, they loved her. Ethel really in particularly loved her.

561
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 4: The whole thing was very quiet, her buying this house,

562
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 4: and it remains kind of quiet. But Ethel on the

563
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 4: golf course was like, I can't wait for her to

564
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 4: be my neighbor. She was very into it. But yeah,

565
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 4: Taylor and Ethel had an interesting little friendship happening. But

566
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 4: I'll have to listen to that episode, I would love

567
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 4: to hear more about that.

568
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: Well.

569
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: Moving away from the celebrities and the more famous people

570
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: who graced the halls of the compound, clearly there was

571
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: a whole world of regular people, support staff, people who

572
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: kept the light song at the Kennedy compround, nanny's, cooks, nurses, drivers,

573
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: sailing instructors, tennis instructors, gardeners. How did they contribute to

574
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: the history and why was it important to you to

575
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: include them?

576
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, those were some of my favorite stories because I

577
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 4: think for me, and I think for a lot of people.

578
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 3: It can be hard to put yourself in the shoes

579
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 3: up the Kennedy's.

580
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 4: There's no families like that, but I could imagine being

581
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 4: a neighbor to a Kennedy or working for Kennedy. So

582
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 4: to think about the family through the eyes of the

583
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 4: people who were crossing their paths in that way was

584
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 4: the most interesting to me. One of my favorite interviews

585
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 4: was with this piano player who was hired to play

586
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 4: at the family home at the end of Rose Kennedy's life.

587
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 3: She always played the piano. It was like a big

588
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 3: part of her life growing up and for the kids.

589
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 4: But as she got older, she wasn't able to play anymore,

590
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 4: so Ted Kennedy hired this spocal musician to come play

591
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 4: the piano for her and his story.

592
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 3: You know, a piano player is a kind of an

593
00:25:58,280 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 3: interesting one too.

594
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 4: Because, as I guess, most people in these roles, they're

595
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 4: kind of invisible, so the guests are walking by them,

596
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 4: and so it's really such.

597
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: A fly on the wall type of perspective that you're getting.

598
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 4: So John, this piano player had these amazing stories of

599
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 4: the celebrities coming in and out.

600
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 3: I just found it fascinating.

601
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about Eugenia Fortees

602
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: She was one of the more interesting non Kennedy characters

603
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 1: in the book.

604
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's one of my favorites.

605
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 4: You were asking about my first time there, And what

606
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 4: struck me when I got to Hinna Support is that

607
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 4: there's a tiny sliver of a public beach there and

608
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 4: it's called Eugenia Fort's Beach, And it just really struck.

609
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 3: Me that this is a place so associated with.

610
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 4: The Kennedy's and the one public place is not named

611
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 4: for them, it's named for this woman, Eugenia, who I

612
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 4: had never heard of, and so it was important to

613
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 4: me to learn more about her. She was at Cape

614
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 4: Verdian woman who lived in Hyennas not Hyenna support and

615
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 4: she worked as a cook for many of the families

616
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 4: in the community, never the Kennedy's, but some of their neighbors.

617
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 4: So the Kennedy kids all grew up knowing her, particularly

618
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 4: Ted Kennedy. She kind of had a bit of a

619
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,239
Speaker 4: friendship with Ted Kennedy when he was growing up, and

620
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 4: she ended up becoming one of the founding members of

621
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 4: the End of lacp on the Cape, and she really

622
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 4: really fought to keep that beach public. The community really

623
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 4: wanted to make that a private beach. It's where the

624
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 4: yacht club is set, and yacht club is kind of

625
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: a funny name for what this is. It's like a

626
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 4: tiny little hut basically where the boats come in and out,

627
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 4: but that's where it's set, and so they wanted to

628
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 4: turn it private. Many times this came up, and Eugenia

629
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 4: really really fought to keep it public, like she would

630
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 4: bring a rocking chair and come sit at these town

631
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 4: meetings to fight for that to continue to be public.

632
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: And then later on in Ted Kennedy's political career, he

633
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 4: turned to her when kind of a dark period of

634
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 4: They were the reverse Freedom Rise is what they were,

635
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 4: so called that this kind of racist organization sent black

636
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 4: Southern Americans up to Cape cod to the houses of

637
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 4: Democratic politicians to say, you know, like we don't want

638
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 4: them here, We're sending them there.

639
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 3: It was horrific.

640
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 4: It was absolutely in humane, and Ted Kennedy turned to

641
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 4: Eugenia Forts to say, what should we do with these

642
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 4: bus loads of people who have arrived, and she kind

643
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 4: of gave him guidance about making sure they were taken

644
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 4: care of at a place to sleep. I mean, they

645
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 4: were kind of tricked into getting onto these buses because

646
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 4: they were told they would have jobs when they got

647
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 4: to Massachusetts.

648
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: They did the I mean, Republicans did the exact same thing.

649
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: The Trump administration did the exact same thing that Martha's

650
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: Fenyard dead. Yeah, yeah, it was an exact echo of it.

651
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: But Eugenia was a really important voice and kind of

652
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: making sure that that was wrong, that was Righted. I

653
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: think it's so cool that you included her for a

654
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: number of reasons. One, I'm from Massachusetts originally, and Eugenia

655
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: was from New Bedford, and New Bedford has a big

656
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: Cape Verdean population, and that's just not something that a

657
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 2: lot of histories of the area really detailed. But the

658
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: Cape Verdian population has been there for a really long time.

659
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: A lot of people forget that. At the time that

660
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: Eugenie Fortes was a young woman, these beaches were segregated,

661
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 2: even in Massachusetts. One of her founding acts before becoming

662
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: involved in the end WACP was getting stopped by a

663
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: police officer on a segregated beach and saying that there

664
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: were complaints about her and her friend being there.

665
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 3: I don't know.

666
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: This is a bigger problem I have with a lot

667
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: of selective histories of Massachusetts, but I feel like there

668
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: are these really important black histories that get erased all

669
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: too often.

670
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

671
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

672
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 4: I was lucky enough to speak to her nephew, who

673
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 4: was able to give me incredible insight into her. The

674
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 4: interesting thing about working on a more local history about

675
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 4: a national family. You say Cape cod you say High

676
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 4: I Suportant, people say Kennedy's. But people in that community,

677
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 4: Eugenia was really one of the wise. They wanted to

678
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 4: talk to me about the most, and it was really

679
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 4: important to them that her story be told. And she's

680
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 4: really the one who shaped this community in a really

681
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 4: tangible way.

682
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break, stay with us,

683
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: and we're back with more United States of Kennedy.

684
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: Were there any other nannies, governesses, tennis instructors, cooks. I'm

685
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: fascinated by the kind of downtown abbey feel of a

686
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: place like this. You know, I know so many of

687
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: these people are very loyal to the Kennedy family and

688
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: have been there for generations. Were there other people like

689
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: that that you spoke to, or whose relatives you spoke to,

690
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: or anything like that.

691
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, they had these kind of governesses for the summer

692
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 4: because it was not their permanent residence, so they would

693
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 4: bring in these young women to come for the summer

694
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 4: to help with the kids. So I spoke to a

695
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 4: number of those women who would come into help. Really

696
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 4: from the big Camelot years. There were a few people

697
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 4: who worked there who wrote memoirs that I leaned heavily

698
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 4: on that were really insightful and incredibly interesting, including a

699
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 4: driver who worked for the family for a very long

700
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 4: time who ended up living above the garage of the

701
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 4: family home. His perspective was just incredible, like what he

702
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 4: was able to see if I was able to talk

703
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 4: to a neighbor kid who was the one who ended

704
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 4: up teaching Jackie Kennedy how to slalom ski. So there

705
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 4: were the people who worked for them in official capacities,

706
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 4: and then the people who came in and out for

707
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 4: these little brief moments. Another really important person who worked

708
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 4: for the family was this man named Sandy Eiler, who

709
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 4: was basically a one man summer camp for the Kennedy

710
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 4: families and the neighbors. The family loved to tell stories

711
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 4: about Sandy that he was really one of the ones

712
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 4: who they would really light up talking about. He was

713
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 4: the one who would organize the flag football games and

714
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 4: the baseball games for the kids and the neighbor kids too.

715
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 4: The Shriver kids remember him going from house to house

716
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 4: to wake up the kids and then making them to

717
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 4: go jump into the water before breakfast, and he would

718
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 4: ended up being invited to many of the weddings of

719
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: the kids he saved in their lives for a very

720
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 4: long times. He had passed before I started working on

721
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 4: this book, but I spoke to a lot of people

722
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 4: who knew him really well.

723
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: Man slalom skiing say, I mean, this is a relatable

724
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: is my class issues are absolutely frothing right.

725
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: Now and feel feel better after our yearly ski train

726
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: during the season. This has been so interesting and it

727
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: is such a fascinating lens through which to view a

728
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: family is through this space that had so much meaning

729
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: for all of them and also a place where so

730
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: much of their life is in this kind of public,

731
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: official capacity, and this is where they went to relax.

732
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: But I'm wondering, what is the compound like today? I mean,

733
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: we're past that kind of golden era where even past

734
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: the era you mentioned in the eighties where there was

735
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: such a celebrity ecosystem built around the Kennedy's. The Kennedy

736
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: name is in such an interesting place right now because

737
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: on the one hand, of course RFK Junior has gone

738
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: in a completely different direction, but on the other hand,

739
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: there are still young people that are trying to carry

740
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: on some sort of mythology, some sort of legacy. What

741
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: is the compound like now? Just as a place.

742
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 4: So the big house, the main house is empty, and

743
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 4: it's owned by an organization that was made in Ted

744
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 4: Kennedy's name after he passed away by his widow, and

745
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 4: they're trying different things with it. What they want eventually,

746
00:32:58,600 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 4: is it for to be a place where they're like,

747
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 4: big meetings can happen for politicians, is what they've landed on.

748
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 4: It is a tricky property because it's at the end

749
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 4: of this very short, very residential street. So there were

750
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 4: talks about turning it into like the JFK Birthplace type

751
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 4: of house that people could visit, and that's really what

752
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 4: Rose Kennedy wanted done with it, but the logistics of

753
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 4: that are incredibly complicated because of.

754
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 3: Where it is.

755
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 4: So right now it's in this kind of what's going

756
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 4: to be a meeting place. I don't know how much

757
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 4: is actually being used right now though as a meeting place.

758
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 4: When I was working on the book, it basically was empty.

759
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 4: Ethel Kennedy spent the whole end of her life as

760
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 4: a year rounder in highness support. She was at that

761
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 4: house all the time, and she recently passed away, and

762
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 4: that house now belongs to Max Kennedy, my sailing buddy Max,

763
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 4: so he moved in with his family there recently. There

764
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 4: was a beautiful spread and I think el de Corr

765
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 4: had these incredible.

766
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: Life I hope.

767
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 4: So yeah, so yeah, you get a peak of what

768
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 4: it looks like now there, and then the JFK House

769
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 4: is now owned by one of Ted Kennedy's sunns and

770
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 4: it is a private residence. So there is a big

771
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 4: fence up around that JFK House now that went up

772
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 4: during the presidency over the years, of course, but the

773
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 4: other houses all remain open and look like they always

774
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 4: look from the outside. The estimate that I have been

775
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 4: told is there about a dozen other Kennedy houses and

776
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 4: high indes support. The family members have bought up other

777
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 4: houses as the years have gone on, including Kerry Kennedy

778
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 4: and including Bobby Kennedy, Bobby Junior, he has a house

779
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 4: there around the corner from the compound too, So there

780
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 4: are a number of other houses that have been bought

781
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 4: up by the family and they continue to go, they

782
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 4: continue to spend their summers there. I asked one of

783
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 4: the family members at one point, why do you keep

784
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 4: why do you still go there? Because when people go there,

785
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,959
Speaker 4: people still try to sneak photos at the compound from

786
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 4: the beach and you see the on social media, people

787
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,959
Speaker 4: tagging you know, the Kennedy Compound on from walking behind

788
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 4: the house, and there's just such a there's such a

789
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 4: it's so associated with the family. Now it feels like,

790
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 4: if you want your privacy, and many of these people

791
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 4: are incredibly private people, why here, Like, go to any

792
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 4: other part of Cape Cod and you would be able

793
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 4: to have so much more privacy. And what they said

794
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 4: was that this is where our family is, and this

795
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 4: is how these cousins know each other, So this is

796
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 4: where they spend holidays. And when I was doing a

797
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 4: lot of the interviews at the house is that were

798
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 4: owned by the Kennedy's, there were cousins coming in and

799
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 4: out the door, you know, asking do you have a

800
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 4: whiffleball bat kind of thing?

801
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 3: But yeah, they still they're still there. Wow.

802
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 2: Well that would be a great place to end in

803
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: and of itself. But there is just one more thing

804
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: that I've been wanting to ask you about, which is

805
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: I've heard you say obviously that you had no real

806
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: preconceptions or ties to the Kennedys before you started this project,

807
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: but that one of your favorites over the course of

808
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: researching them came to be Rose Is. She's someone who

809
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: we haven't talked about as much on the show as

810
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: other members of the Kennedy extended universe, And so I

811
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 2: just wanted to maybe close out by letting you dish

812
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: about why you love Rose.

813
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, you know, reading the histories of the

814
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 4: family when I got started, the kind of perception of

815
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 4: her is she's very cold, and there's a lot of like,

816
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 4: oh my god, she would leave her kids to go

817
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 4: shopping in Europe.

818
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 3: Like, there's a lot of that kind of writing about her.

819
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 3: And the fact that she stayed with Joe through obviously

820
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 3: his terrible industry Russians and so many other things that

821
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 3: Joe did over his life.

822
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 4: There's kind of like a like she's this kind of cold, stoic,

823
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 4: you know, willing to hang in through anything, kind of woman.

824
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 3: That's kind of the perception.

825
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 4: But as I researched and talked to people who knew her,

826
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 4: particularly the end of her life, there was the other

827
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 4: side of her that came out through this place that

828
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 4: was her home where she obviously felt the most comfortable,

829
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 4: and as a parent myself, there were just things she

830
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 4: would say, you know. One of my favorite quotes in

831
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 4: the book was she ended up building a little hut

832
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 4: at the end of the property just for her, and

833
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 4: she says something like any mother will know. It's not splendor,

834
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 4: it's solitary.

835
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 3: Confinement.

836
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 4: I need, like, she had this huge family with these

837
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 4: crazy kids running around, and she just wanted to be

838
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 4: by herself for a moment every day. And as a parent,

839
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 4: that's incredibly relatable. She was picky about who she opened

840
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 4: up with, and there were these neighbors of hers who

841
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 4: really became her closest friends at the end of her life,

842
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 4: who she really opened up within ways about Joe's behavior,

843
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 4: about what happened to her daughter Rosemary, which is obviously

844
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 4: so horrific, and you get these glimpses of humanity that

845
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 4: I think she's not often granted in the bigger histories

846
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 4: of the family.

847
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's such an interesting figure because I always go

848
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: back and forth where you hear about these stories where

849
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: she's so cruel. I mean, one of them that has

850
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: stuck with me is her disapproval of Kicks, of Kick

851
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: marrying and non Catholic. And of course, initially you're like,

852
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: how can a mother be so disapproving and blah blah,

853
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: And then during the episode we did about Kick, you know,

854
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: you have the realization that one of the reasons why

855
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: she's acting like that is because she is so genuinely

856
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: religious that she thinks Kick would not go to heaven

857
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,879
Speaker 1: if she went through with this marriage. So even though

858
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: it seems so cool, it comes from a certain kind

859
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: of actual love for her daughter. And there's always moments

860
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 1: like that with ros. She's both a very hardened woman

861
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: but also does really care about her family.

862
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:49,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

863
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I think her family was really always the most

864
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 4: important thing to her, and so kind of and this

865
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 4: is a family house, and this is where the family

866
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 4: would be together when great things happen, weddings, when terrible

867
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 4: things happen, funerals, and this is where they always came.

868
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 4: And so this place that was so important to her,

869
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 4: I think allowed her to open up in a way

870
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 4: that you could just don't see in other settings for her.

871
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: Well, the book is White House by the Sea. This

872
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: was so interesting, and I have to say, if nothing else,

873
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: the photo section in the center of it is great.

874
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: And speaking of Eugenia, for it's is a really great

875
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: photo of her in here. There's all these crazy looking

876
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: family photos. You know, there was just this haunted quality

877
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: to any visual representation of the Kennedy's that really comes through.

878
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, looking at the old photos was really such a

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00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 3: fun part of the process.

880
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much. Kate, you're our first returning guest,

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00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: and I hope you write another book about a different

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00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: element of the Kennedy's and come back soon.

883
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 3: Yes, thank yous so much, thank you for having me.

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00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 3: So that's it for this week's episode.

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00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: Next week we're doing a special episode counting down the

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00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: top Kennedy moments of twenty twenty five. And there were

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00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: a lot, so happy holidays from everyone here at United

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00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: States of Kennedy and we will see you next week.

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00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 2: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me, Julia Clair,

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00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 2: and George Savers.

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00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: Original music by Joshua Chapolski.

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00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: Editing by Graham Gibson.

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00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Doug Bame.

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00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 2: Research by Dave Ruth and Austin Thompson.

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00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: Our producer is Carmen Laurent.

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00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele.

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00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: Created by Lyra Smith.

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00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 2: The United States of Kennedy is a production of iHeart Podcasts.