WEBVTT - Case #03: Zach

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<v Speaker 1>I literally cannot stand up. At that point, I even

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<v Speaker 1>had to ask my parents, like to move my limbs

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<v Speaker 1>for me, Like, oh, can you move my arm? I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not comfortable, can you move my leg? I knew something

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<v Speaker 1>was really not right, so I started to panic. He

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<v Speaker 1>was running extremely high fevers, which scared me to death

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<v Speaker 1>because you know, I just kept thinking like, oh my god,

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<v Speaker 1>even if he survives, his brain is going to be fried.

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<v Speaker 1>So your lungs don't work anymore, your blood pressure drops,

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<v Speaker 1>your kidneys wind up failing. The risk of dying goes

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<v Speaker 1>up by about one for every five minutes that passes.

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<v Speaker 1>How terrifying would it be to fight an unknown enemy,

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<v Speaker 1>one you didn't recognize and didn't see coming. What if

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<v Speaker 1>that enemy was coming from within a disease even doctors

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't identify. Nearly half of all Americans suffer from some

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<v Speaker 1>chronic illness, and many struggle for an accurate diagnosis. These

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<v Speaker 1>are their stories. I'm Lauren Bright, the checko, and this

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<v Speaker 1>is symptomatic. Zach Dobek was a self described relatively normal

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<v Speaker 1>eleven year old kid. His favorite food was pizza, He

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<v Speaker 1>loved sports, he loved being outside, but above everything, he

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<v Speaker 1>loved Legos. Yeah, I was a big Lego kid. I

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<v Speaker 1>would say I was never a huge video game guy,

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<v Speaker 1>nothing like that. But we had a whole Lego set

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<v Speaker 1>in our basement. He loved to fish and be in

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<v Speaker 1>the water and just do all the things that kids

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<v Speaker 1>love to do. That was Zack's mother, Martie Doeback, who

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<v Speaker 1>knew she had a rather exceptional kid on her hands

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<v Speaker 1>from a young age. I literally can't help but like

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<v Speaker 1>break into a huge smile because he is just a

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<v Speaker 1>really unique kid who just sort of connects with everybody

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<v Speaker 1>around him. And I think about how lucky we are

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<v Speaker 1>because he is such a special human being. So he

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<v Speaker 1>was special before he got sick, and maybe he's even

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<v Speaker 1>extra special now, a special kid that was forever shaped

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<v Speaker 1>by a life threatening battle with a mystery medical condition.

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<v Speaker 1>Marnie is a family physician who would be faced with

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<v Speaker 1>an emergency even she didn't see coming. Was there anything

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<v Speaker 1>that could have prepared you for the roller coaster you're

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<v Speaker 1>about to go on? No? Simply no, there was nothing.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I think as a mom, probably all moms

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<v Speaker 1>worry about things that might happen to their children. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>is my child going to have cancer? As my child

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<v Speaker 1>is going to become a diabetic, as my child is

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<v Speaker 1>going to get into a car accident, And these were

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<v Speaker 1>the kinds of things that, like over the years, had

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<v Speaker 1>you know, maybe run through my mind, but what ended

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<v Speaker 1>up happening was so far from anything I could have

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<v Speaker 1>even imagined. The first signs of something being wrong with

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<v Speaker 1>Zach started to show up while she was cheering on

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<v Speaker 1>her son during a little league baseball doubleheader. I remember

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<v Speaker 1>these these moments in exquisite detail. So I know that

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<v Speaker 1>it was June four of two thousand fourteen, and that

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<v Speaker 1>was a Wednesday, and my husband and I were at

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<v Speaker 1>the game, and he had played, you know, particularly well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think at those games, and so when the games ended,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I went over to him to congratulate him

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<v Speaker 1>or whatever when they're eleven years old. I put my

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<v Speaker 1>arm around him and I said good job, and he

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<v Speaker 1>started to cry. I told my mom and my dad

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<v Speaker 1>was coaching me at the time. I told them that

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<v Speaker 1>my knee was kind of hurting and I had like

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<v Speaker 1>a really bad headache. And now, being the athletic kid

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<v Speaker 1>that I was, I was busy all day and I

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<v Speaker 1>had a double header baseball game, so two in a

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<v Speaker 1>row so when I told them of that pain, they

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<v Speaker 1>were kind of like, Okay, you just had a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of physical activity. And being the fine parent that I am,

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<v Speaker 1>my first thought was like, he's hungry, he didn't need

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<v Speaker 1>he played too long games, it's hot. So I really

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<v Speaker 1>didn't think too much of it either, especially knowing my

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<v Speaker 1>mom as a doctor, I kind of knew she would

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<v Speaker 1>take care of everything. I knew I could always trust her,

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<v Speaker 1>and the fact that she's like, all right, let's get

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<v Speaker 1>get some dinner, let's drink some water, and see how

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<v Speaker 1>you are tomorrow. Um, I really wasn't thinking too much

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<v Speaker 1>of it at the time. The Dopebac family went home

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<v Speaker 1>for dinner, but Zach didn't eat at all, which was strange.

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<v Speaker 1>Zach loved food and it was odd for Martie to

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<v Speaker 1>see him pass up a meal. His curious nee pain

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<v Speaker 1>lingered into the next day, so he woke up in

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<v Speaker 1>the morning and he said that his knee was still

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<v Speaker 1>hurting him. And you know, I guess those were the

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<v Speaker 1>first glimmers where I was sort of like, mm hmm,

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<v Speaker 1>that's a little bit weird. So I decided to keep

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<v Speaker 1>him home from school, and I gave him some advil

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<v Speaker 1>or something like that that you would give any kid

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<v Speaker 1>for pain, and the advil kicked in after a little bit.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, he's a great kid, and he came up

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<v Speaker 1>to me and he said, do you know what, Mom,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel better. I think I'm okay to go to school.

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<v Speaker 1>So I said okay. Zack didn't last long after she

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<v Speaker 1>dropped him off. The pain was quickly catching up to him,

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<v Speaker 1>causing him to start lumping. The school nurse was actually

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<v Speaker 1>the one to realize something wasn't quite right. She called

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<v Speaker 1>me and she said that Zack had come to her

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<v Speaker 1>complaining of knee pain, that he didn't have a fever,

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<v Speaker 1>but he was limping, and then what she said, um,

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<v Speaker 1>and I really remember, like she said these exact words.

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<v Speaker 1>He just doesn't look right. And I remember saying to her, like,

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<v Speaker 1>I know, you know, something seems really odd. And I said, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll come pick him up. And I brought him home

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<v Speaker 1>and I, you know, I got him set on the

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<v Speaker 1>couch and I you know, I raised his leg up

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<v Speaker 1>on something and I gave him some ice, and I

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<v Speaker 1>gave him some more advil. And when I went back

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<v Speaker 1>to check on him after some time, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>felt his head and he felt warm, and I took

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<v Speaker 1>his temperature and he was running a fever. And I

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<v Speaker 1>remember also thinking, that's weird lingering me pain and now

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<v Speaker 1>a fever. Marty thought it might just have been that

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<v Speaker 1>getting some sort of virus, which would explain the pain

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<v Speaker 1>and fever. But things started to get worse quickly. The

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<v Speaker 1>next day, she was barely at work an hour before

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<v Speaker 1>getting a phone call from their all pair, and she

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<v Speaker 1>called me at work to tell me that she was

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<v Speaker 1>downstairs in our kitchen and she could hear him crying

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<v Speaker 1>up in his room. And again, you know, there are

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<v Speaker 1>all these moments. That was another moment where I was like, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>like bring him to my office. So I'm a family doctor,

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<v Speaker 1>and I had asked one of my associates if she

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<v Speaker 1>would take a look at him for me. So she

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<v Speaker 1>came into the room and by that point he was

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<v Speaker 1>really uncomfortable, like he couldn't sit still because of the pain.

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<v Speaker 1>But when you looked at his knee where he was

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<v Speaker 1>complaining of pain, it wasn't read, it wasn't swollen. She

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<v Speaker 1>was able to move it, and so she sort of

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<v Speaker 1>examined him and looked at me and like almost like

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<v Speaker 1>shrugged at me like, I don't know, it's weird. She

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<v Speaker 1>ordered him some pain medicine. She thought maybe it was

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<v Speaker 1>a weird case of lime disease. So he got some

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<v Speaker 1>blood work and she prescribed an appropriate antibiotic for lime

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<v Speaker 1>disease that maybe we could just get started on. In

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<v Speaker 1>the meantime, the pain, the fevers, both of these are

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<v Speaker 1>adding up to look a lot like I'm disease. That

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<v Speaker 1>was until the blood work came back with some alarming results,

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<v Speaker 1>results that made Martie start to get really nervous. Within

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of hours, we got a call from the

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<v Speaker 1>lab with a critical result. And one of the tests

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<v Speaker 1>that had been run is called a c reactive protein

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<v Speaker 1>or a c RP, So a c RP is it's

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<v Speaker 1>a very non specific test, but it's a test that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of measures like a level of inflammation in the body,

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<v Speaker 1>so it doesn't tell you what's causing the inflammation. But

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<v Speaker 1>his came back extraordinarily high, to a point where I

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<v Speaker 1>knew something Everyone knew, not just me, but I knew

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<v Speaker 1>something was really not right. So I started to panic.

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<v Speaker 1>That was the moment I was gonna say, take me

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<v Speaker 1>to that moment, because you're wearing your mother hat and

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<v Speaker 1>you're wearing your doctor hat. And usually when as a

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<v Speaker 1>parent you are told of a result like this, you

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<v Speaker 1>have to educate yourself. But you instantly that must have

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<v Speaker 1>been like ice cold feared on your back. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>mean it was. I knew something was very wrong, but

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<v Speaker 1>you kind of start spiraling into like that half doctor,

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<v Speaker 1>half mom, like you don't want to overreact, you don't

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<v Speaker 1>want to underreact, you know. I always say like I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't want to be that patient that was like difficult

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<v Speaker 1>or an over worrior, and you know, trying to balance

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<v Speaker 1>all of it was not easy, but but I was.

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<v Speaker 1>I was nervous at that point. It's becoming apparent there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot more going on here than just lyme disease.

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<v Speaker 1>But what Martie is starting to fear the worst because

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<v Speaker 1>she knows how telling those test results, maybe being a

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<v Speaker 1>doctor herself. Looking to where it all started with his knee,

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<v Speaker 1>Martie takes him to an orthopedis to see if they

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<v Speaker 1>can source any answers. And Zach was laying there on

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<v Speaker 1>the table and he looked ill, like he did not

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<v Speaker 1>look well. But he had also already taken like Thailand

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<v Speaker 1>all with codine at that point, so it was a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit hard to tell what was what if he

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<v Speaker 1>was drowsy from that, but he did not look well.

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<v Speaker 1>So the doctor pulled the fluid out of the joint

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<v Speaker 1>and he said, to me, the fluid doesn't look normal,

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<v Speaker 1>but it doesn't look like a bacterial infection either. He

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<v Speaker 1>thought it was what we call like a viral synovitis,

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<v Speaker 1>like what I had kind of originally thought that he

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<v Speaker 1>had some kind of virus that was causing the lining

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<v Speaker 1>of his joint to be inflamed, and the abnormal fluid

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<v Speaker 1>was because of all the inflammation in there. The fluid

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<v Speaker 1>was going to all go out to the lab and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, so that was it. So I sort of

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<v Speaker 1>like stood there. I remember feeling like almost dumbfound like okay,

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<v Speaker 1>but my mother, doctor censors were going off tremendously. I

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<v Speaker 1>knew that that wasn't it. But what do you do?

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<v Speaker 1>What stopped you in that moment? That must have been

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<v Speaker 1>so difficult for you to navigate because I felt like

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<v Speaker 1>I had done everything, you know, I I took him

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<v Speaker 1>to a primary care doctor. He was examined, he had

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<v Speaker 1>blood work, he had an X ray, he saw an orthopedies,

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<v Speaker 1>He took the fluid out of the knee, like I

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know what else to do. Like I felt

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<v Speaker 1>like even if I took him to the hospital, they

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<v Speaker 1>were just going to send him home because everything had

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<v Speaker 1>been done. But I just I knew something was not right.

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<v Speaker 1>She went to her younger son's baseball game the next day,

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<v Speaker 1>but Marnie was buzzing with nervous energy. Having left Zack

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<v Speaker 1>with his older brother, the family came home to find

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<v Speaker 1>Zack's leg had ballooned while they were away. And I

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<v Speaker 1>remember I just had to go pee and I literally

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<v Speaker 1>couldnot get up to walk to the bathroom. So my

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<v Speaker 1>older brother I got in his back. He gave me

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<v Speaker 1>a piggyback ride to the bathroom. I could like barely

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<v Speaker 1>even stand up at that point. The fact that I

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't even walk to the bathroom is like mind boggling.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the time we got home, we noticed that

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<v Speaker 1>like his thigh looked swollen and um. As that date progressed,

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<v Speaker 1>he just, I mean it got it started to get ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 1>He started to have extreme pain everywhere, like all over

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<v Speaker 1>his body. I even had to ask my parents, like

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<v Speaker 1>to move my limbs for me. I would ask them like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>can you move my arm. I'm not comfortable. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>move my leg? My husband had to pick him up,

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<v Speaker 1>carry him up the stairs to put him in bed.

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<v Speaker 1>And my husband tried to put him in his bed,

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<v Speaker 1>and Zach said to him, can I go in your bed?

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<v Speaker 1>It's more comfortable, So my husband put him in our bed,

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<v Speaker 1>which you know, in retrospect, thank god, three days have

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<v Speaker 1>passed since the onset of symptoms fever, body aches, swelling,

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<v Speaker 1>and so much pain that Zack couldn't move on his own.

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<v Speaker 1>The antibiotics and medicine so far hadn't helped things change course.

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<v Speaker 1>All the specialists and even Marnie were stumped as to

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<v Speaker 1>what was really happening to him. Things kept spiraling in

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<v Speaker 1>the wrong direction, and Marnie slept in the bed with

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<v Speaker 1>Zach to keep a close eye on him. You can

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<v Speaker 1>ask my mom. We didn't sleep that much to that night,

0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.760
<v Speaker 1>especially her. She was worried sick. It was just hours

0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:16.280
<v Speaker 1>of him like tossing and turning. He kept asking for

0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.120
<v Speaker 1>water over and over, and you know, he would doze

0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.080
<v Speaker 1>for a few minutes and and finally like somewhere in

0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:23.840
<v Speaker 1>the middle of the night, maybe it was three o'clock

0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.400
<v Speaker 1>in the morning. He asked for the water and I

0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:28.600
<v Speaker 1>said sure, sure, I'll get it for you. And then

0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:30.720
<v Speaker 1>he looked me straight in the face and he said,

0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.160
<v Speaker 1>is someone going to fly it to our house? And

0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.599
<v Speaker 1>I looked at him and I said what. And I

0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:42.400
<v Speaker 1>kind of remember being like in a dream stay almost tired,

0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:44.760
<v Speaker 1>So I said it and I told her and I

0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.040
<v Speaker 1>was like no, no, no, I'm just tired. I'm just

0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.800
<v Speaker 1>dreaming like it's okay. Uh. And then I asked again,

0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.480
<v Speaker 1>like five seconds later, are they going to fly it

0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.760
<v Speaker 1>over to me? And he again said is someone going

0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:58.880
<v Speaker 1>to fly it to our house? So he was like

0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.959
<v Speaker 1>starting to like hallucinate. I don't know, but I started

0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.640
<v Speaker 1>to cry and she was like, that's it. We're going

0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.040
<v Speaker 1>to the hospital. And I actually sat there and I

0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.319
<v Speaker 1>was like no, I'm so tired, Like can we please

0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.200
<v Speaker 1>go in the morning. Can we please go in the morning?

0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.120
<v Speaker 1>And she was like Nope, absolutely not, We're going right now.

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:17.920
<v Speaker 1>And I think about that and like if we had

0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.040
<v Speaker 1>said yes, Like the honest to god truth is that

0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.000
<v Speaker 1>I think he would have died in that bed that night.

0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.840
<v Speaker 1>We'll be right back with Symptomatic, a medical Mystery podcast.

0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Now back to Symptomatic a medical mystery podcast, Zach Dobec

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 1>was fighting for his life against a mysterious illness that

0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.240
<v Speaker 1>now had him heading to the e R. He still

0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.480
<v Speaker 1>had an extremely high fever, was in so much pain

0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.080
<v Speaker 1>that he couldn't move on his own, and now he

0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:58.840
<v Speaker 1>was starting to become delusional. He wasn't himself, and that

0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:03.120
<v Speaker 1>terrified his mother, Marny, And we got him into the

0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.400
<v Speaker 1>emergency room and into like the triage nurse, and the

0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.440
<v Speaker 1>triage nurse took one look at him and she said,

0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.720
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't look good. And I thought, no kidding, lady.

0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean we were. We were deliriously tired, so I

0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.160
<v Speaker 1>think I was dozing on and off. But they did

0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.320
<v Speaker 1>a chest X ray and blood work and he was

0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.120
<v Speaker 1>on oxygen, and you know, we were there for a

0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.040
<v Speaker 1>few hours, and you know, sometime early in the morning

0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.960
<v Speaker 1>the results started to come in and he was in

0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:37.360
<v Speaker 1>multi system failure, you know, liver failure, kidney failure, He

0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.640
<v Speaker 1>had fluid in his lungs. I mean, he was a wreck.

0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.320
<v Speaker 1>Just four days after first showing symptoms, Zach is now

0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.960
<v Speaker 1>experiencing multi system failure, with him being transferred to the

0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 1>i c U. Every passing hours critical defining the cause

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.760
<v Speaker 1>of his symptoms and most importantly, the right treatment. It

0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.320
<v Speaker 1>is literally to the point of life or death, as

0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:05.080
<v Speaker 1>the doctor's race defined an answer, but that doesn't stop

0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Martie from trying to find a way to comfort her son,

0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:12.160
<v Speaker 1>as his mother, in these moments, he looked. I mean,

0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.000
<v Speaker 1>in medicine, like when you see a really sick person,

0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:16.760
<v Speaker 1>a lot of times you say that they looked toxic.

0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.640
<v Speaker 1>He looked toxic. I actually took pictures of him in

0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.320
<v Speaker 1>the ambulance. I can't remember why. I think I was

0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.200
<v Speaker 1>like talking, I don't even know. I think we were

0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.960
<v Speaker 1>trying to like make him laugh or cheer him up,

0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:29.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, I don't remember why, but I took some

0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.360
<v Speaker 1>pictures of him. And when you look at the pictures,

0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean, he looks gray. He looks horrible and gray

0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.600
<v Speaker 1>and very ill. He was kind of just laying there still. Yeah,

0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:42.800
<v Speaker 1>I haven't seen it in a while, but I mean,

0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.680
<v Speaker 1>with the fever as high as it was, um, I

0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.680
<v Speaker 1>was pretty much just like a blank slate. My body

0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:54.680
<v Speaker 1>was literally just like a sack of potatoes, just almost lifeless,

0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:56.880
<v Speaker 1>and even in my eyes you could kind of see

0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:00.240
<v Speaker 1>that I wasn't there that's so frightening because it's is

0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.840
<v Speaker 1>like your body had lost all feeling except for pain. Yeah,

0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:05.679
<v Speaker 1>and it's not the pain you would think of, like

0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.840
<v Speaker 1>ow I stubbed my toe. It was like pain, like

0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:14.040
<v Speaker 1>shut down, like something really bad was going to happen.

0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.960
<v Speaker 1>Placed in the care of the pediatric I see you,

0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.040
<v Speaker 1>Zach and Marney were repeatedly given the same conclusions as before,

0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.040
<v Speaker 1>some sort of tickborn illness in the family of lyme disease.

0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:29.119
<v Speaker 1>Zach was already on oxygen and using an ivy for hydration.

0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.879
<v Speaker 1>He was then put on full spectrum antibiotics and hopes

0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.880
<v Speaker 1>that any of them would help combat the illness that

0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.639
<v Speaker 1>was causing his body to start to shut down. But

0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.800
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't enough. The doctors needed to take more drastic

0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.280
<v Speaker 1>measures to try to save his life. And so the

0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.359
<v Speaker 1>I c U doctor came in and he said, let's

0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:54.080
<v Speaker 1>go have a meeting in my office. And he basically said, like,

0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.720
<v Speaker 1>we think he needs to go on a ventilator or

0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.040
<v Speaker 1>a respirator. And I mean, what are we going to argue?

0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:00.879
<v Speaker 1>You know, of course, of course if that's what he needs,

0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.359
<v Speaker 1>and so you know, we we obviously said okay, and

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.359
<v Speaker 1>we um they asked us to step out, and we

0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.200
<v Speaker 1>were out of out of the I c U. I

0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.000
<v Speaker 1>don't know if it was twenty minutes or what. We

0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.920
<v Speaker 1>were waiting, and you know, they call you back in.

0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Trying to control my tears, but they call you back in,

0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:22.359
<v Speaker 1>and your kid, who was playing baseball, you know what,

0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.359
<v Speaker 1>three or five days earlier, was laying there on a

0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.840
<v Speaker 1>ventilator with like tubes and like and you know they're

0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.880
<v Speaker 1>un they put them out, so he's, you know, unconscious,

0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.359
<v Speaker 1>un a ventilator and I just remember thinking, like, what

0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.520
<v Speaker 1>is happening here? Can I ask a question? So? Was

0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:44.880
<v Speaker 1>it technically? Did they put him in a medically induced comma? Yeah,

0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.919
<v Speaker 1>that's exactly what they did. Zach was now in a

0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.760
<v Speaker 1>medically induced comma to protect his brain from swelling and

0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.440
<v Speaker 1>to keep him alive. While the doctors scrambled to figure

0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.640
<v Speaker 1>out the root of his symptoms, nothing seemed to be working,

0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.680
<v Speaker 1>and his fever just kept persisting through all the attempts

0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:04.879
<v Speaker 1>to bring it down to the point where they were

0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.840
<v Speaker 1>putting him on like cooling blankets. You know. I just

0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.080
<v Speaker 1>kept thinking, like, oh my god, even if he survives,

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.679
<v Speaker 1>his brain is going to be fried. His lung collapsed

0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.840
<v Speaker 1>at one point, so he needed a chess tube to

0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:21.160
<v Speaker 1>re expand his lung. There was just complication after complication.

0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:23.600
<v Speaker 1>When I was in the coma. Again this is second hand,

0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.080
<v Speaker 1>but they said I could hear, and my dad would um.

0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:28.560
<v Speaker 1>He would tell me every day when I was in

0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.080
<v Speaker 1>the coma. He would say, wake up, Zack. We got

0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.280
<v Speaker 1>fish to catch. And that was his way of saying, like,

0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.000
<v Speaker 1>you gotta get up. You're not done yet. We got

0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:43.760
<v Speaker 1>stuff to do. We got fish to catch. And Zack's

0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.160
<v Speaker 1>dad was right. The doctors had taken a blood sample

0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.000
<v Speaker 1>that held the key to finding out what was really

0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.720
<v Speaker 1>going on here, a seemingly simple course of action that

0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.679
<v Speaker 1>would give the Dopbec family the answers They were desperate for.

0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.280
<v Speaker 1>The blood culture that they had taken that night. Eight

0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:04.520
<v Speaker 1>in the emergency room was growing MERCA. I don't know

0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.680
<v Speaker 1>if everyone knows MERCA, but it stands from methicillin resistance

0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:11.960
<v Speaker 1>staff aureous. It's a staff bacteria that is um resistant

0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.359
<v Speaker 1>to the majority of antibiotics that we have, and it

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:19.000
<v Speaker 1>tends to be very aggressive and cause very serious infections sometimes.

0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:26.440
<v Speaker 1>And so they knew he was in septic shock from merca.

0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.199
<v Speaker 1>They had finally gotten to the bottom of what was

0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:33.240
<v Speaker 1>slowly draining the life from Zach mersa that had developed

0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.600
<v Speaker 1>into sepsis. Here's Dr Jem O'Brien, the vice president of

0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:41.399
<v Speaker 1>Operations for Population Health and Ohio Health and a board

0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:47.440
<v Speaker 1>member of the Sepsis Alliance. For those not familiar with sepsis,

0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:51.520
<v Speaker 1>could you give me a layman's definition. Yeah, So, your

0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.600
<v Speaker 1>body has an army that's designed to fight infections. And

0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.040
<v Speaker 1>if you think about if you get a local infection

0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.760
<v Speaker 1>of boil or ingrown, tony al or something, it gets

0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.720
<v Speaker 1>read head, it gets inflamed, it hurts, it might even

0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.600
<v Speaker 1>have some pasts, and then it gets better. What sepsis

0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:09.160
<v Speaker 1>is is when those body defense systems actually go haywire,

0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.359
<v Speaker 1>and so instead of having a focused response to the infection,

0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.480
<v Speaker 1>you wind up with widespread response to infection throughout the body,

0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.160
<v Speaker 1>and so your body functionally suffers friendly fire from your

0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:24.080
<v Speaker 1>immune system trying to battle the infection. If you experience

0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:28.040
<v Speaker 1>septic shock, the risk of dying goes up by about

0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:31.920
<v Speaker 1>one percent for every five minutes that passes without appropriate antibiotics.

0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.640
<v Speaker 1>Zach had gone into septic shock because of how rapidly

0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.760
<v Speaker 1>the mercer had spread throughout his body. They knew what

0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:41.880
<v Speaker 1>disease they were up against, but every minute was now

0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.639
<v Speaker 1>critical to finding a treatment that could save his life.

0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.480
<v Speaker 1>An orthopedis came to see me and my husband to

0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:52.760
<v Speaker 1>tell me that he had a massive infection. It's called osteomyelitis.

0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:55.879
<v Speaker 1>It's a bone infection in his femur bone or his

0:21:56.000 --> 0:22:01.400
<v Speaker 1>thigh bone, and he needed urgent surgery. So the orthopedist

0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.640
<v Speaker 1>shout out Dr Minkowitz, who saved his life, took him

0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:10.400
<v Speaker 1>from the m r I directly to the emergency room.

0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.720
<v Speaker 1>So I ended up having six surgeries on my femur

0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:17.320
<v Speaker 1>and they basically just scooped out the bone that was infected.

0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:19.680
<v Speaker 1>Sounds pretty gross. It is pretty gross. I have a

0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.359
<v Speaker 1>really cool scar now, which I love my scar, so

0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.080
<v Speaker 1>that's pretty cool. I had basically no femur, so they

0:22:26.080 --> 0:22:29.679
<v Speaker 1>had to just let that bone regrow. After the surgeries

0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.119
<v Speaker 1>on his femur, Zach was seeing small improvements, but the

0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.080
<v Speaker 1>doctors were still struggling to break his fever, and we're

0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:40.240
<v Speaker 1>concerned about it causing long term brain damage. Here's Dr

0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.040
<v Speaker 1>O'Brien again. One of the things we're just beginning to

0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:46.560
<v Speaker 1>understand is there's also something called post sepsis syndrome that

0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:49.560
<v Speaker 1>is present maybe as many as fifty of all survivors

0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.040
<v Speaker 1>of sepsis, and could present in a wide range of ways.

0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:54.720
<v Speaker 1>One of the ways that's been most well studied is

0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:58.120
<v Speaker 1>actually the presence of something called cognitive dysfunction. Think about

0:22:58.119 --> 0:23:01.439
<v Speaker 1>people having problems with memory or doing calculations, kind of

0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:04.199
<v Speaker 1>the higher order functions of our brain. People can have

0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.440
<v Speaker 1>significant limitations as a result of that. But all that

0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.439
<v Speaker 1>changed when the nurses made a routine swamp of Zack's

0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:13.000
<v Speaker 1>IVY line. A lot of times when patients are in

0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:14.399
<v Speaker 1>an I c U, they have what's called like a

0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:16.639
<v Speaker 1>central line, you know, so instead of having just an

0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.000
<v Speaker 1>ivy in your arm, it's in a bigger blood vessel.

0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:21.159
<v Speaker 1>So he had what's called the central line entering in

0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:23.760
<v Speaker 1>his neck, and you know, it kind of goes in deeper.

0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:29.400
<v Speaker 1>And that central line had gotten like colonized with the bacteria.

0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:31.760
<v Speaker 1>And so once they pulled that out and put a

0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.320
<v Speaker 1>new one in, that's finally when the fever's like stopped.

0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:38.840
<v Speaker 1>I think it kept like circulating the bacteria. When they

0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:43.439
<v Speaker 1>finally got rid of that, that's when things finally started

0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:46.840
<v Speaker 1>to take a turn for the better. Finally, a light

0:23:47.000 --> 0:23:50.120
<v Speaker 1>at the end of the tunnel changing out that central

0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.719
<v Speaker 1>line led to a pretty rapid recovery for Zach. Just

0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:56.119
<v Speaker 1>a couple of days later, the doctors were able to

0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:58.920
<v Speaker 1>take him off oxygen. He was breathing on his own

0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.120
<v Speaker 1>again for the first time. I'm in weeks. I remember

0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.760
<v Speaker 1>when he finally woke up. He was like desperately trying

0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:06.840
<v Speaker 1>to say something, and he had like oxygen, you know,

0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:09.320
<v Speaker 1>like a mask on and we were trying to figure out,

0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:10.480
<v Speaker 1>you know what does he want to say what? And

0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:13.840
<v Speaker 1>we pulled his mask away, and you know what he said.

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:16.920
<v Speaker 1>He said, I just want to say thank you very much,

0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:20.440
<v Speaker 1>And like the nurses all started to cry, and I

0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:26.479
<v Speaker 1>remember saying, like, see, see, he's so special. That's like

0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:30.760
<v Speaker 1>one of my mom's favorite stories. They told her, like, oh,

0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:33.959
<v Speaker 1>when he wakes up, like you might hear some some

0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:37.200
<v Speaker 1>things you've never heard before, and she's like, not my son,

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.359
<v Speaker 1>he would never I just said wanted to say thank you.

0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 1>I guess that's pretty impressive. So you were in a

0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:50.000
<v Speaker 1>medically induced coma for twelve days, you know, nearly two weeks.

0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:54.879
<v Speaker 1>That is surreal on so many levels. Do you remember

0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:59.040
<v Speaker 1>anything about coming out of it? I actually did have

0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:03.760
<v Speaker 1>one really crazy, crazy, like very distinct memory, like a

0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:07.959
<v Speaker 1>coma dream basically, which is pretty wild. Um. I was

0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:10.680
<v Speaker 1>in a target parking lot and I was actually in

0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:13.600
<v Speaker 1>a wheelchair, and my mom pushed me in a target,

0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:17.840
<v Speaker 1>and all of a sudden, the target started to burn down,

0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:24.359
<v Speaker 1>and I actually got separated from my mom. Uh, And

0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:26.119
<v Speaker 1>I was in a wheelchair, I couldn't really move on

0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:30.600
<v Speaker 1>my own. And eventually, as the target was burning down,

0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:34.960
<v Speaker 1>some person found me and rolled me outside the building

0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:38.800
<v Speaker 1>and I was eventually reunited with my mom. And I

0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:44.480
<v Speaker 1>know it's crazy, but like the symbolism in that is ridiculous.

0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Zach had gone from playing Little League baseball on Wednesday

0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:53.120
<v Speaker 1>to being on the verge of death on Sunday. That's

0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:56.000
<v Speaker 1>how rapidly mercer and stepsis took hold of his body.

0:25:56.560 --> 0:26:02.600
<v Speaker 1>Searing pain, fevers, confusion, delusion and multi system failure, countless

0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:08.120
<v Speaker 1>antibiotics and treatments, a medically induced coma, six surgeries, months

0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:12.119
<v Speaker 1>of rehabilitation. Zack pulled through all of that with the

0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:15.840
<v Speaker 1>support of his family. So they wouldn't let me leave

0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:19.520
<v Speaker 1>the impatient rehab hospital for a while until they thought

0:26:19.520 --> 0:26:22.040
<v Speaker 1>I was stable enough to get in the car. So

0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:23.920
<v Speaker 1>I guess what we did. As soon as they told

0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:25.840
<v Speaker 1>me I could leave the hospital, my dad was like

0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:28.040
<v Speaker 1>talking to all the doctors making sure we could go.

0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:31.600
<v Speaker 1>He took me to some fishing pier about thirty minutes away.

0:26:32.000 --> 0:26:33.760
<v Speaker 1>I was in a wheelchair. He pushed me out on

0:26:33.760 --> 0:26:37.280
<v Speaker 1>the dock and uh, you know, we caught little blue

0:26:37.280 --> 0:26:39.960
<v Speaker 1>fish that were no more than like five inches long.

0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:42.120
<v Speaker 1>But I know it sounds a little cheesy, but that's

0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:43.959
<v Speaker 1>when I knew like it would be okay, Like the

0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:48.199
<v Speaker 1>sun setting over the water, I'm catching fish with my

0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:50.440
<v Speaker 1>dad and that was like I was like, I'm gonna

0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:52.560
<v Speaker 1>be okay. They were a little blue fish, but they

0:26:52.640 --> 0:26:55.800
<v Speaker 1>might as well have been swordfish right for me. It's

0:26:55.840 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 1>like it was like a magical experience. It really was.

0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:04.080
<v Speaker 1>That's beautiful. Zach went on to make a strong recovery,

0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.000
<v Speaker 1>but nerve damage to his leg remained. He was no

0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:10.080
<v Speaker 1>longer able to play competitive sports, no longer able to

0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:13.680
<v Speaker 1>go on long walks or hikes, and sustain some mobility issues.

0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:17.080
<v Speaker 1>It was hard being like the athletic kid that wanted

0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:19.920
<v Speaker 1>to play all the sports and coming out of it

0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:24.320
<v Speaker 1>being barely able to even walk. It was definitely physically

0:27:24.359 --> 0:27:27.440
<v Speaker 1>and mentally challenging. And that's where that phishing passion comes

0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:30.560
<v Speaker 1>into play. I needed something that I could call my own,

0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:34.000
<v Speaker 1>something that makes me happy, something where I could be outside,

0:27:34.680 --> 0:27:38.679
<v Speaker 1>and you know, that became fishing, but more than just

0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:42.920
<v Speaker 1>the fishing part, it was a new me. And remember

0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:45.919
<v Speaker 1>that huge scar Zach had from all those surgeries on

0:27:45.960 --> 0:27:50.120
<v Speaker 1>his femur. You said that you love your scar. Can

0:27:50.160 --> 0:27:52.320
<v Speaker 1>you describe it and what is it that you love

0:27:52.359 --> 0:27:57.000
<v Speaker 1>about it? So it's probably seven or eight inches long

0:27:57.160 --> 0:27:59.800
<v Speaker 1>down my entire femur, pretty much like the lower half

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:03.000
<v Speaker 1>of my femur into my knee, and it's a pretty

0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:05.480
<v Speaker 1>big scar. But it's kind of like my battle wound,

0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:07.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, like I can say that I beat that

0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:10.520
<v Speaker 1>and I have something to show for it. I remember

0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:14.280
<v Speaker 1>my surgeon actually said to me that she could kind

0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:16.800
<v Speaker 1>of make it look a little better, um, and I

0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:18.680
<v Speaker 1>was like, no, you you don't get to touch that.

0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:21.720
<v Speaker 1>That's my battle wound from winning the battle. So I

0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:23.760
<v Speaker 1>have a really cool tattoo idea that I really want

0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:26.159
<v Speaker 1>to get, like a fish head on one end of

0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:27.960
<v Speaker 1>the scar and a fish tail on the other and

0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:30.640
<v Speaker 1>kind of like a fish carcass, almost the crossbones going

0:28:30.680 --> 0:28:33.520
<v Speaker 1>through the scar and the scar being the backbone. So

0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:36.320
<v Speaker 1>I want to get that soon. And my parents are

0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:40.200
<v Speaker 1>surprisingly in full support because they know that's like super

0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:45.440
<v Speaker 1>meaningful and like I said, it's my battle wound, a

0:28:45.520 --> 0:28:48.000
<v Speaker 1>badge of honor to remind him of the fight of

0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:51.200
<v Speaker 1>his life against a mysterious illness that turned out to

0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:54.840
<v Speaker 1>be sepsis, A mysterious illness that took him from healthy

0:28:54.920 --> 0:28:58.360
<v Speaker 1>to the e R in three days, A mysterious illness

0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:02.480
<v Speaker 1>that is actually much more prevalent than people may realize.

0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:08.520
<v Speaker 1>How common is sepsis exceedingly common. So in the US alone,

0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:11.960
<v Speaker 1>there are approximately one point six million cases a year,

0:29:12.760 --> 0:29:15.520
<v Speaker 1>results in nearly three d thousand deaths just in this

0:29:15.640 --> 0:29:19.760
<v Speaker 1>country alone. So it's the most expensive reason for hospitalization,

0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:23.080
<v Speaker 1>it's the most likely reason for readmissions. So it's an

0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:28.080
<v Speaker 1>exceedingly common diagnosis. We do a national poll of Americans

0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:31.520
<v Speaker 1>have never heard the word sepsis. And that's one of

0:29:31.560 --> 0:29:34.320
<v Speaker 1>the reasons that Sepsis Alliance is dedicated so highly to

0:29:34.360 --> 0:29:37.920
<v Speaker 1>awareness is to try and make it easier for people

0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:41.280
<v Speaker 1>to communicate about this actual disease. I think the things

0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:46.840
<v Speaker 1>that I like come back to our raising consciousness about sepsis,

0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:49.680
<v Speaker 1>that it is a possibility and at least considering it,

0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:53.880
<v Speaker 1>trusting your instincts, and don't be afraid. Don't be afraid

0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:56.440
<v Speaker 1>to bring it up. You know, say it out loud,

0:29:56.480 --> 0:29:59.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, go to your doctor and say, like, I

0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:03.480
<v Speaker 1>listened to an heart radio podcast about sepsis, could this

0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:06.440
<v Speaker 1>be sepsis? Like, don't be afraid to say it, because

0:30:07.080 --> 0:30:10.520
<v Speaker 1>sometimes doctors are not thinking of it. People sometimes say like, oh,

0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:12.520
<v Speaker 1>is it hard to talk about? And I told you,

0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:15.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't really look back on as a negative. And

0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:18.040
<v Speaker 1>I like to share my story and make people more

0:30:18.120 --> 0:30:22.920
<v Speaker 1>aware and how mentally and physically I've been through challenges

0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:27.200
<v Speaker 1>and struggles and I'm still Zach, but I keep saying

0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:32.040
<v Speaker 1>it shaped me, like it made me who I am.

0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:35.840
<v Speaker 1>To find out more information, visit the Sepsis Alliance at

0:30:35.920 --> 0:30:39.800
<v Speaker 1>sepsis dot org. My name is Zake Dobec and when

0:30:39.840 --> 0:30:43.400
<v Speaker 1>I was eleven years old, I suffered from immerse infection

0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:46.600
<v Speaker 1>in my right femur. I went into septic shock and

0:30:47.000 --> 0:30:50.440
<v Speaker 1>was placed into a medically induced coma for twelve days.

0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:56.160
<v Speaker 1>On the next episode, of Symptomatic. Shelby Morrison faces a

0:30:56.200 --> 0:31:00.000
<v Speaker 1>life threatening health crisis that spirals as her first pregnant

0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:03.600
<v Speaker 1>see progresses. Everything started to flare back up again when

0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:10.880
<v Speaker 1>I got pregnant, and um my body freaked out. I

0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:15.000
<v Speaker 1>just remember praying in the room, you know, to let

0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:19.080
<v Speaker 1>me meet my daughter, to let me get through this

0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:22.080
<v Speaker 1>with my wife. I didn't want it to all in

0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:26.360
<v Speaker 1>before it even it all started. Symptomatic a Medical Mystery

0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:30.200
<v Speaker 1>podcast is an original podcast from I Heart Radio. Are

0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:34.080
<v Speaker 1>shows hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Executive producers are

0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:38.160
<v Speaker 1>Matt Romano and myself. Our EP of post production is

0:31:38.280 --> 0:31:42.400
<v Speaker 1>James Foster. Our producers are cra Kaiser and John Irwin.