Speaker 1: Hey y'all, Hey, what's up, and welcome to let's Red
Speaker 1: Table that. I'm Tracy t. Brow and I'm Calra Pressley
Speaker 1: and we are talking about Red Table Talks gas lighting
Speaker 1: episode today. I mean, what an eye opener it was.
Speaker 1: We're diving deeper and deeper every week. I'm definitely deeper
Speaker 1: into gas lighting today. And after watching Red Table Talk
Speaker 1: and listening to this episode, you should definitely be able
Speaker 1: to successfully spot and stop gas lighting in your life.
Speaker 1: That's the key, because who this episode was a lot
Speaker 1: gas lighting. First of all, let's just understand what it is, Okay.
Speaker 1: Gas Lighting is psychologically manipulating someone into questioning what is
Speaker 1: actually true. And today's episode, oh m g Rebecca was
Speaker 1: gas lighted to the nth Degree's she not m she was?
Speaker 1: She was Oh, I was just watching in are. It
Speaker 1: was just a lot and shock and anger. I had
Speaker 1: all those emotions. I had all those and of course
Speaker 1: empathy just hurts my feelings to know that someone is
Speaker 1: intentionally been treating another person. You don't have to do that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think when it comes to certain relationships where one
Speaker 1: person is definitely giving less, that person is definitely the
Speaker 1: gas lighter. I feel like they're doing any and everything
Speaker 1: they can to just avoid that accountability for themselves, right,
Speaker 1: So they are pushing all on you and telling you
Speaker 1: how crazy you are. But once it is validated in
Speaker 1: your head, you do feel a sense of relief. I
Speaker 1: completely related to go back on that. I can't wait
Speaker 1: to get into that in the episode because you start
Speaker 1: to rethink everything that happened in the relationship. You know,
Speaker 1: there's been such a phenomenal light that has been shown
Speaker 1: on abuse and all the different ways that people are abused.
Speaker 1: Now gas lighting is emotional abuse, right absolutely. I mean
Speaker 1: it just reminds you that women are always the one
Speaker 1: who are expected to like hold onto the relationship and
Speaker 1: sustain the relationship and make it right. Um and I
Speaker 1: think so I feel like we're always, you know, quick
Speaker 1: to apologize. I feel like a lot of women put
Speaker 1: it on a pedestal, you know, they think it's they
Speaker 1: end up making a relationship bigger than them, and when
Speaker 1: that's where your power is, you want to maintain it
Speaker 1: or if that's where you once got some power from.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you say that, Carr, because the one
Speaker 1: thing that I think that was interesting in this episode
Speaker 1: is that the gas flighting, with the exception of one.
Speaker 1: I think they did one scenario where the person that
Speaker 1: was the perpetrator was the female. But it is a
Speaker 1: universal idea that the people that are experiencing gas lighting
Speaker 1: are women and that the men are the ones doing it. Right,
Speaker 1: people probably would like to know the numbers. Shout out
Speaker 1: to Sonya Holt. She is a person who is local
Speaker 1: enrichment and she often talks about domestic violence in the city.
Speaker 1: But this piece of like gaslighting. One thing I love
Speaker 1: is she always brings examples from both sides, Like it's
Speaker 1: not just all men are all women, so she'll bring
Speaker 1: in various examples a different event. I love that because,
Speaker 1: like you said, men are probably experiencing this. Men are
Speaker 1: experiencing this to physical abuse, financial abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse.
Speaker 1: It happens on both sides. And so I'm grateful to
Speaker 1: the person that is enrichment and all over that are
Speaker 1: sharing and shining light and spreading awareness, because that's what
Speaker 1: we really need. Now it's time to share with our
Speaker 1: online Red Table Talk community has to say about this episode,
Speaker 1: and they have a lot to say, So how they
Speaker 1: do right, guys go to kick it off? Carlin McEwan says,
Speaker 1: I'm continually being medically gaslighted by uneducated medical professionals regarding
Speaker 1: my endometriosis. I mean, my goodness, she said, it's exhausting
Speaker 1: trying to be heard. I can only imagine. Yeah, for sure, Carla, goodnight,
Speaker 1: we failed for you. Wow. And Carrie gomen And said
Speaker 1: this was a powerful episode that was explained so perfectly.
Speaker 1: I have never related so much in my life, not
Speaker 1: even while in therapy. Thank you for bringing light to
Speaker 1: this subject that so many of us don't speak about.
Speaker 1: Oh Carrie, thank you. That's so nice. Chavante Scott says,
Speaker 1: thirteen years of this behavior and I'm still trying to
Speaker 1: get out of this relationship. This opened my eyes so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having this talk. And I think that's
Speaker 1: one of the things we even said as we were
Speaker 1: thinking about this episode is I'm hoping that it really
Speaker 1: connects with someone who may not even realize it's happening.
Speaker 1: So I'm glad you have that eye opening moment, says CC. Castro.
Speaker 1: Acosta said I got all of this and more from
Speaker 1: my ex sister. That quote unquote raised me. Sadly. It's
Speaker 1: also family members to uh now that is really something.
Speaker 1: Gas Lighting does not have any limits. There there's no parameters,
Speaker 1: no discrimination, no barriers that part anybody, right. You know,
Speaker 1: we talk about cultural a lot, just in society and life,
Speaker 1: and the reality is if your culture is very like
Speaker 1: toxic and leading, that means everyone probably speaks that same way,
Speaker 1: not just the adults or you know, the cousins or
Speaker 1: maybe everyone in your family. So protect yourself and just
Speaker 1: continue to learn what's going on. Nicky Hardy says, I
Speaker 1: wish I'd heard this term ten to fifteen years ago.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have stayed so long. He made me question
Speaker 1: every single decision I made, completely wrote me down. But
Speaker 1: after two years divorced, I'm slowly getting back to my
Speaker 1: better self. Good job, if you were happy for you,
Speaker 1: Oh that's good, that's really good. Well we also got
Speaker 1: our very first voice message. So this is what Tammy
Speaker 1: Mobley has to say about her experience with gas lighting. Hi,
Speaker 1: this is Tammy Mowble from Chester, Virginia to mess a
Speaker 1: found survivor and advocate. Thank you for the table talker
Speaker 1: bringing awareness. In this segment on gas lighting, one or
Speaker 1: three women are in an unhealthy relationship. Abuse is about
Speaker 1: control and manipulation and as it's a mess of violence survivor.
Speaker 1: I was abused for fourteen years mentally and emotionally. There
Speaker 1: was time that I didn't think that my feelings were
Speaker 1: valid because I was told to stop my crocodile tears.
Speaker 1: If I showed any top of your emotion, I was
Speaker 1: told that all I had was a pretty face. So
Speaker 1: I started believing that if I caught my ex husband
Speaker 1: and a lie or he was cheating, he would turn
Speaker 1: the tables around to make me think that I was
Speaker 1: crazy or that what I saw or heard really didn't happen.
Speaker 1: It's so important that many women and men know the
Speaker 1: signs and an unhealthy relationship when it pertains to gas fighting.
Speaker 1: So thank you once again for bringing this to life.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing your platform once again. Temmy Moldly,
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, thank you first for sharing and hearing
Speaker 1: your voice makes so much impact for me. I mean,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, it makes an impact. We need to make
Speaker 1: these connections. I think people need to hear that other
Speaker 1: people are going through it, and not just for a
Speaker 1: little while, she said. Fourteen years fourteen years. Shout out
Speaker 1: to Tammy for sharing and being transparent. What you're giving
Speaker 1: continues to be a gift to encourage and implore women
Speaker 1: to know that they too have the power to heal
Speaker 1: beyond the gas lighting and to move forward. Continue your
Speaker 1: great work, Tammy, Wow, I'm so proud. Facts. We love
Speaker 1: hearing from you, and we want to hear from you.
Speaker 1: If you want to be featured on an episode, leave
Speaker 1: us a voice message at speak pipe dot com slash
Speaker 1: Let's Red Table that we're going to take a quick break,
Speaker 1: but when we get back, we'll be joined by one
Speaker 1: amazing guest. It's time to welcome our guest to Let's
Speaker 1: Red Table. That carry Win has been her formidable years
Speaker 1: and what she now identifies as an evangelical cult, and
Speaker 1: this is where she first experienced gas lighting. A couple
Speaker 1: of years after she graduated college, she found herself in
Speaker 1: a new gas lighting relationship, this time with the man
Speaker 1: twelve years older than she. The first few months felt
Speaker 1: great thanks to her boyfriend's love bombing, but he quickly
Speaker 1: turned into an abusive person and after almost a year,
Speaker 1: Carrie finally got out thankfully. Carrie has been sharing about
Speaker 1: her gas lighting experience as a writer and relationship coach
Speaker 1: on her website for years now. To try to help
Speaker 1: others out of codependent relationships. Welcome to let's red table
Speaker 1: that carry. Thank you, Car and Tracy is great to
Speaker 1: be here. Yes, thank you so much. Let's just jump
Speaker 1: into it. We're gonna talk about the episode and we're
Speaker 1: gonna kick it off with the part of the show
Speaker 1: with the moments that made us pause, rewind, and listen again. Wait,
Speaker 1: what is going on? So let's talk about lots of
Speaker 1: in this episode. Oh my goodness and al When Rebecca
Speaker 1: explained that she grew up so accustomed to being gaslighted
Speaker 1: by her boyfriend that she actually thought her view of
Speaker 1: reality was warped. That was my birthday when those pictures
Speaker 1: were taken. But I'm there, and I'm going I know
Speaker 1: that I sort of have a weird perception of what
Speaker 1: reality is. But I feel like it's not okay for
Speaker 1: him to be out with another woman. Okay. Have you
Speaker 1: ever been in a situation where you question your own
Speaker 1: judgment severely? I can't pick just one, but I would
Speaker 1: say that it started from a very early aide. Just
Speaker 1: my childhood set me up to be in a situation
Speaker 1: where down the road, when anyone gave me pause, I
Speaker 1: didn't know what my truth was so with that led
Speaker 1: me to a lot of unhealthy relationships. I can relate
Speaker 1: to that. I mean just just the wanting to trust someone.
Speaker 1: So anytime you've been manipulated in some way, no one
Speaker 1: wants to revisit it. And if it happens again, you
Speaker 1: definitely do start to think, is there something wrong with me?
Speaker 1: What am I doing to to cause this? And I
Speaker 1: think the biggest thing that we all learned after talking
Speaker 1: about this episode is that it's not you right like
Speaker 1: these people and things out I feel like I feel
Speaker 1: like they seek out the good qualities and the good traits,
Speaker 1: which kind of goes into another another weight what moment.
Speaker 1: When Dr Romney explained bread crumbing, she described it as
Speaker 1: that's a process called bread crumbing where you get by
Speaker 1: un less and less. You used to get a whole
Speaker 1: slice of bread. Now you're just getting a few crumbs
Speaker 1: and you're calling it a meal. I mean, not even
Speaker 1: the crust. It made me mad. Wait, not even the crouss.
Speaker 1: Car not even you get a crumb of the crust
Speaker 1: and you call that a meal and you feel satisfied
Speaker 1: from it. That's the part that's so difficult with bread crumbing.
Speaker 1: Car have you had an experience where you've experienced bread crumbing.
Speaker 1: I have experienced bread crumbing and like a past relationship,
Speaker 1: and at this point it wasn't a relationship, it was
Speaker 1: a situation ship, right. I think the person recognized that
Speaker 1: I wanted more and because they were aware I wasn't
Speaker 1: quite getting it from anywhere else. I don't know why
Speaker 1: women sometimes we date like we're married, or date what
Speaker 1: one person, you know, hoping that it right all the way,
Speaker 1: just all the foot and the feet and then no commitment,
Speaker 1: just giving them are all they know. It's because they're
Speaker 1: probably dealing with multiple people. They're giving out less and
Speaker 1: less and a little bit here or one grand gesture
Speaker 1: for the next month or trow. Yeah, I've experienced it,
Speaker 1: and it's hurtful because you do start to think you're
Speaker 1: wanting too much or something. I can't even really put
Speaker 1: it fully into words. I just knew that wasn't or
Speaker 1: that you don't deserve anything. Right. Once I started to
Speaker 1: really see myself as whole and more and started affirming myself,
Speaker 1: as you would say, in other ways, than that relationship
Speaker 1: wasn't enough of d loger. So good for you. I'm
Speaker 1: glad you got out of the to and recognize that
Speaker 1: there's a scene from one of my favorite shows, Crazy
Speaker 1: Ex Girlfriend. This is a plug for the show. If
Speaker 1: you haven't watched it, watch it. But she has a
Speaker 1: song called love Colonels and in the song, she's singing
Speaker 1: about how she just wants his love colonels and he'll
Speaker 1: give her one there, maybe maybe there. He'll be like, hey,
Speaker 1: will you pick up my laundry? And she's, oh, I
Speaker 1: got one, And it just shows that blinded and have
Speaker 1: those rose colored glasses on. It's just so easy. We'll
Speaker 1: take basically anything, and you try to tell us ourselves
Speaker 1: that his love anything. Yeah, and in that case, go
Speaker 1: pick up my dry cleaning. Was really running errand for me.
Speaker 1: But she just when I really realized, oh god, this
Speaker 1: is terrible what this is? Before I knew it was
Speaker 1: a breadcrumbing term, I used to say, just holding onto
Speaker 1: a little bit of something out of fear of having
Speaker 1: nothing at all. I can think of one where for
Speaker 1: years and this wasn't an abusive situation. It just was
Speaker 1: with a man that was very emotionally unavailable. And for
Speaker 1: years we were friends. We weren't friends then I thought
Speaker 1: we were more than friends. I remember on a birthday,
Speaker 1: he sent me flowers and just did little things here
Speaker 1: and there that I thought we were going in a
Speaker 1: certain direction, and we weren't. In that time, I was
Speaker 1: definitely still dating other people, but I think I was
Speaker 1: pulling out hope for this one person. Yeah, holding out hope,
Speaker 1: the burnt candle burning for the one though that was
Speaker 1: the one, and any little thing, yeah, the person we
Speaker 1: thought right right, Well, I think that also speaks to
Speaker 1: maybe what's going on with ourselves, because I don't think I,
Speaker 1: looking back, I don't think I was available either, So
Speaker 1: I was seeking that out without realizing. Now that is
Speaker 1: really good. That's a really powerful retrospective that you were
Speaker 1: not available emotionally either. Therapy two years to figure that
Speaker 1: one out. But the answer therapy, one word therapy. Therapy
Speaker 1: really does. Absolutely we encourage therapy here, and I'm glad
Speaker 1: that Stigma's coming off of therapy now to Carrie, so
Speaker 1: that people can say that unashamedly. You know, we need
Speaker 1: to be able to rely on professionals to help support
Speaker 1: us through certain things in our life. The phrases Rebecca's
Speaker 1: ex use and Dr Romney share that are commonly used
Speaker 1: by gaslighters Dr Romney, what are more examples of gaslighting?
Speaker 1: Stop being so sensitive? I just told you your emotion
Speaker 1: is invalid. Let's just do a lightning round here. I'll
Speaker 1: read these off and we can say if someone has
Speaker 1: used these gaslighting phrases on us, are not okay you
Speaker 1: already okay, I'm ready, all right, stop being so sensitive. Check.
Speaker 1: I've heard that in the workplace. I've heard that in
Speaker 1: the workplace as well. Workplace, both of you. Work place. Okay,
Speaker 1: I need an example, give me an example. I just
Speaker 1: felt like I was being critiqued anyway, and I was
Speaker 1: the only black person in the workplace, so it was
Speaker 1: hard for me to have my voice heard or just
Speaker 1: be understood, I felt, and they definitely told me I
Speaker 1: was overly sensitive in an official write up when we
Speaker 1: did our disk assessment. I couldn't believe it was on
Speaker 1: the paper. And bless their hearts, I think they thought
Speaker 1: that they were helping me. I'm sure they did. I'm
Speaker 1: sure they thought that they were giving you productive feedback
Speaker 1: that part. I had several very toxic bosses, and there
Speaker 1: was a situation where I was advocating for one of
Speaker 1: my customers. I just remember him telling me that I
Speaker 1: was being sensitive, I was emotional because I was a woman.
Speaker 1: Just blamed it on me being a woman, for me
Speaker 1: doing what was my job. Okay, okay, so here we go.
Speaker 1: Here's another one. You're crazy. Yeah, not that direct. I've
Speaker 1: got to know your acting crazy. I feel like we'd
Speaker 1: be hard pressed to find a woman that hasn't heard
Speaker 1: some iteration of your crazy, of your crazy. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that we do get that. Okay, you must be paranoid.
Speaker 1: I have heard this one myself. What about y'all? Check? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love it. Check. So my paranoia you must be paranoid,
Speaker 1: was interestingly enough, also workplace, and we were in the
Speaker 1: break room and I said something to correct or at
Speaker 1: least acknowledge that someone that was in the break room
Speaker 1: had made a comment that was racially insensitive. And they
Speaker 1: were like, oh, no, Tracy, you're just being paranoid. You know,
Speaker 1: stop being so paranoid. No one's out to get you, like,
Speaker 1: this isn't about you. And I was like, what the heck,
Speaker 1: I'm not paranoid at all. I heard what you said,
Speaker 1: and I am going to correct you, or at least
Speaker 1: offer the opportunity for you to be corrected. What about you? Mine?
Speaker 1: Was not workplay. It was in the relationship with the
Speaker 1: older man that I dated that I'm sure we'll get
Speaker 1: more into later, but he was actually there were nights
Speaker 1: where he would just disappear randomly for nights or even
Speaker 1: I remember one time, there's probably two or three days,
Speaker 1: and I'm not talking like he went in to the
Speaker 1: wilderness to have some spiritual experience. He just wouldn't answer me.
Speaker 1: And this was after we were in a very committed relationship.
Speaker 1: When he returned to Earth or however you want to
Speaker 1: put it out in front of him, and he constantly said,
Speaker 1: I was being paranoid. He wasn't doing anything while lo
Speaker 1: and behold found out after the relationship he had five
Speaker 1: six other girls he was messing around with. Stop not
Speaker 1: that for six Okay, this man had to be exhausted,
Speaker 1: but we are going to get into that. So are
Speaker 1: you on your period? Mm hm oh, listen, I can
Speaker 1: relate to this one. I can relate to this one,
Speaker 1: and I can't wait to tell you this story. We're ready.
Speaker 1: My son said it. Wait what your son said it?
Speaker 1: And listen and look at your guys faces, because I'm
Speaker 1: going to tell you how he humbled me very quickly.
Speaker 1: So I had just brought groceries in the house and
Speaker 1: I'm doing my mom thing and I go in my room.
Speaker 1: My son was like, are you in your period? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, why would you say that? What made you
Speaker 1: say that? And I immediately just got I was triggered
Speaker 1: and upset. And he was like, because I didn't know
Speaker 1: if you wanted me to bring you these in your
Speaker 1: room or you want me to take it to the
Speaker 1: bathroom where you normally. He literally is putting the groceries away.
Speaker 1: So it was such a plot twist. Wow, my heart.
Speaker 1: But I was triggered, just like you guys. Wait man,
Speaker 1: wait man, white man, are you telling me he was
Speaker 1: just bringing you some feminine hygiene products. It sounds like
Speaker 1: you have him trained, well trained, very well. Wow, great
Speaker 1: he said it. When he said it, I immediately was like,
Speaker 1: oh my lord, what sound in my raising. But I
Speaker 1: was triggered, and I almost completely took it out on
Speaker 1: him until I decided to say, please, please share with
Speaker 1: me your perspective as to why you asked me that.
Speaker 1: Stop it. Oh my gosh, that is the plot twist
Speaker 1: of the century. Okay, thank you, Carrie. All right, let's
Speaker 1: see let's go to the next one. Can you take
Speaker 1: a joke? Yeah? Or or the I was just joking,
Speaker 1: trying to take the onus off the time. It was
Speaker 1: just a joke. Can't you take a joke? Yeah. I
Speaker 1: was in the car with my ex and we were
Speaker 1: driving back and he randomly went on a rant about
Speaker 1: how I needed to shave my face and that I
Speaker 1: was like super hairy, and I mean, you can see
Speaker 1: my face and I just was baffled, and he went
Speaker 1: on and on, and it created an insecurity that to
Speaker 1: this day. It's still there, even though I went to
Speaker 1: my friends and I was like, why would he say this?
Speaker 1: And he was like, oh, I'm just joking. I don't
Speaker 1: know why you're being so sensitive about it, but it
Speaker 1: it came out of nowhere, and it just I remember
Speaker 1: going home buying some and I never whack, so I
Speaker 1: bought my own at home wax and like burn off
Speaker 1: my own skin, like pilling it off. I know. And
Speaker 1: it was such a random, out of the blue thing,
Speaker 1: but he created an insecurity and then from there I
Speaker 1: just started questioning everything about myself. What did you think
Speaker 1: of this episode? Was it what you expected or were
Speaker 1: you feeling something else? I feel like, I have an
Speaker 1: unfair advantage since this is something I've written about and
Speaker 1: been versed in for the last few years. So because
Speaker 1: I was going to say, even the doctor they brought on,
Speaker 1: I actually used to listen to her when I first
Speaker 1: started studying narcissism, so I loved how they navigated it.
Speaker 1: I thought the actress from The Crown, Rebecca, that story
Speaker 1: was heartbreaking and it was just so powerful seeing that
Speaker 1: someone even in that position, she's even being duped and
Speaker 1: being told that she's not worth it, right, I mean
Speaker 1: when she said that she was going on auditions, and
Speaker 1: that's the point where you're super vulnerable, You're unsure, right,
Speaker 1: and you want the person that's in your corner to
Speaker 1: really sure leave you, to be like yeah, good luck,
Speaker 1: but you probably won't get it, and support you and
Speaker 1: be your fan. What is I mean? That is a
Speaker 1: sucker punch right in the gut. If you're in that situation,
Speaker 1: you you almost start to try to convince them no,
Speaker 1: like in the examples that was I enjoyed that part
Speaker 1: of the episode so people could maybe see from the
Speaker 1: outside looking in, this is how it looks, right, because
Speaker 1: when you love the person, you're looking in their eyes.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you can help us get into that carry
Speaker 1: like you're looking in their eyes when it's happening, and
Speaker 1: you're remembering the person who gave you the pillow talk
Speaker 1: and all the great vibes. And the thing is, it
Speaker 1: always starts so subtly, right, It's like that classic parable
Speaker 1: about the burning frog in the water. You don't know
Speaker 1: what's happening. Like imagine you meet someone, you're on a date,
Speaker 1: and he's like, baginet to happen. You're crazy. You're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well I'm gonna go. I'm gonna leave my by. Now
Speaker 1: we haven't built a relationship yet. But when you're six
Speaker 1: months a year, say you're married with kids, and someone
Speaker 1: starts with this behavior, you're not gonna be equipped to
Speaker 1: deal with it. Okay, I can't wait to get into this.
Speaker 1: I have held my peace, So Carrie, let's go. We
Speaker 1: want to know more about how you were gaslighted in
Speaker 1: the evangelical cult. You grew up in The Evangelical church
Speaker 1: as a whole is being critiqued a little more closely
Speaker 1: these days, especially by the newest generation. But clearly some
Speaker 1: evangelical communities take control of their conslications and step further
Speaker 1: than others. How were you gaslighted in your church? So
Speaker 1: I would say that it primarily came with how the
Speaker 1: women were treated versus the men. And from an early age,
Speaker 1: I remember being eleven or twelve, and they would segment us,
Speaker 1: so girls one room, boys in another, and basically they
Speaker 1: would sit us down and say how we were Jezebels,
Speaker 1: we were going to tempt the men, how we couldn't
Speaker 1: wear certain clothes, how we couldn't say certain things, and
Speaker 1: we were legitimately segmented to where I remember being fifteen
Speaker 1: or sixteen and a boy liked me, and it became
Speaker 1: the biggest outrage. We didn't even kiss, we didn't even
Speaker 1: hold hands. I think I tripped over his foot one
Speaker 1: so like the park, but our parents all got called
Speaker 1: in a room with the leader of this church or pastor.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a conventional church. It was more of this
Speaker 1: own small community built this church. So we get brought
Speaker 1: in the room. It was me and another friend because
Speaker 1: she liked his brother or something on those lines, and
Speaker 1: the parents just screaming at us, telling my parents how
Speaker 1: I was sending him messages late at night, and we
Speaker 1: just got treated as if we had committed the biggest crime.
Speaker 1: So from a very early age, I was being told,
Speaker 1: you're the reason that boys do this, you are the problem.
Speaker 1: He didn't message you you're crazy, even though they pursued us.
Speaker 1: Obviously that didn't matter once it came down to it.
Speaker 1: How old were you carry? How old was this fifteen
Speaker 1: when this part happened. But let me tell you the
Speaker 1: best part. The best part was that I wasn't allowed
Speaker 1: to talk to These boys were my years and some
Speaker 1: of my best friends right like, I couldn't date them.
Speaker 1: But these older men that were in the church like banned,
Speaker 1: were able to hang out with us on chaperoned and
Speaker 1: one of them, one of them, my friend was twelve
Speaker 1: and he was twenty two. He pursued her, No one
Speaker 1: believed her, her family tried to get him kicked out
Speaker 1: of the church. It didn't happen. And then when I
Speaker 1: was sixteen, he did the physical things with me and
Speaker 1: I ended up going with my dad to the pastor,
Speaker 1: and basically I was told that it didn't happen. I
Speaker 1: put myself in the situation, and to this day, he
Speaker 1: might still be at this church. I'm honestly not sure.
Speaker 1: I'm so that I know and I actually told my
Speaker 1: story and I know that I actually had a friend
Speaker 1: that probably five years ago, said that he went after
Speaker 1: his I think friend's little sister who was fifteen, so
Speaker 1: he would be what in his thirties at forties at
Speaker 1: this point, a predator. Yes, it happened so much more
Speaker 1: often than we think. It's like that the church wants.
Speaker 1: I don't want to say the church, because that's these
Speaker 1: religious groups at times, if not monitor these people abusing
Speaker 1: their they're abusing power, they're abusing power amongst themselves. Yeah, hush, hush.
Speaker 1: And so I in that situation, I remember he took
Speaker 1: me to a cave, which is the creepiest thing ever.
Speaker 1: And I came back home and I was like covered
Speaker 1: in dirt, and I remember no one asked me what happened,
Speaker 1: and I just was like, I did something wrong. I
Speaker 1: put myself in this situation. I thought, you's my friend.
Speaker 1: They shamed right on, oh my gosh, into guiltying yourself,
Speaker 1: no accountability on anyone else's part. Complete power, and that
Speaker 1: you know, that was one of many yea. And the
Speaker 1: fact that it's happening potentially happening still in the church,
Speaker 1: and now we site church how are we distinguishing the
Speaker 1: difference between church and cult in your mind? I would
Speaker 1: say that it's difficult. But this was more of a
Speaker 1: small segment of people who left the quote unquote think
Speaker 1: of the normal and Christian Church, Baptist Church, whatever. They
Speaker 1: left this to create their own church because their beliefs
Speaker 1: were superior and the other churches didn't have it right.
Speaker 1: We have the only true way to get to Heaven.
Speaker 1: Everyone else is wrong, and then it's that control everyone
Speaker 1: from there. Yeah, that's how cults are made, culte one
Speaker 1: on one and this literally that behavior early on, being
Speaker 1: basically shamed and then punished and not being seen or
Speaker 1: affirmed in the experiences that you had led you to
Speaker 1: evolve as you matured and having these horrific relationships in
Speaker 1: your future. Can you tell us about your relationship with
Speaker 1: your ex who gaslighted you and how the relationships started
Speaker 1: and then turned abusive. I can, and I would say
Speaker 1: before that there was definitely a pattern, and not every
Speaker 1: single one. I had perfectly good relationships, but I definitely
Speaker 1: didn't know how to set any kind of boundaries with
Speaker 1: the men in my life, and I had situations that
Speaker 1: looking back, we're not necessarily consensual, but I would always
Speaker 1: blame myself, push it aside, think it was normal. I
Speaker 1: would say, legally, I was of age, right, but there's
Speaker 1: a reason why he was in his late thirties going
Speaker 1: after someone in their early twenties. So we actually worked together.
Speaker 1: And I had started this job, on my first big
Speaker 1: city job outside of college, and I remember it was
Speaker 1: the first day of orientation and he walked through the
Speaker 1: door and I can still he was wearing a yellow
Speaker 1: shirt like these weird blue pants and aman bun and
Speaker 1: I remember seeing him and instantly this voice in my
Speaker 1: head said he's dangerous. Stay away in a way that
Speaker 1: was basically like this instant year electricity attraction. And I
Speaker 1: remember him looking at me and it was like he
Speaker 1: felt it too, And within a few days we were dating.
Speaker 1: I remember he like swept me off my feet. He
Speaker 1: met some friends. They thought he was amazing. We had
Speaker 1: this magical night and he looked at me and he said,
Speaker 1: You're everything I've ever wanted, and it was like this
Speaker 1: just washing over me. It was like the love I'd
Speaker 1: always dreamed of out of fairy tales. So for about
Speaker 1: two three months, everything was perfect. I met his friend group,
Speaker 1: everyone welcomed me with open arms. We went on these
Speaker 1: special weekend trips and getaways, and then there was a
Speaker 1: night when we went to a party and I remember
Speaker 1: we were driving and he he just seemed off. He
Speaker 1: seemed angry, and I was like, what's going on and
Speaker 1: he was like nothing, and I was like, Okay. We
Speaker 1: get to the party, he's being strange, and then we
Speaker 1: went to leave and he had maybe a couple of beers,
Speaker 1: so I was like, hey, I'll drive. I haven't had
Speaker 1: anything to drink. And we get in the car and
Speaker 1: he started screaming at me that I'm a slut, that
Speaker 1: I'm flirting with everyone, that I threw myself as a
Speaker 1: guy at the party, and he ends up smashing my
Speaker 1: head against the window. And we drive home, and the
Speaker 1: next day we wake up and he's acting like everything
Speaker 1: is normal. I remember he kissed my head and was
Speaker 1: being super sweet, and I pulled away and I just said,
Speaker 1: do you realize what happened last night? And he looked
Speaker 1: horrified and confused, and he said no, and I told him,
Speaker 1: and he acted so ashamed. He said that he had
Speaker 1: no recollection of it. And by the end of it,
Speaker 1: I had separated the two incidents in my mind where
Speaker 1: it almost didn't happen. I was like, I can't even comprehend.
Speaker 1: I just disassociated and was like, there's no way that
Speaker 1: he would do this to me. The normal sweet person's back,
Speaker 1: everything's gonna go back to normal. Well, you also just
Speaker 1: want to get back to the good stuff like that
Speaker 1: we could work. I know he's been stressed right before
Speaker 1: you got home. What were you thinking in the car?
Speaker 1: That was the first time I've been emotionally abused prior,
Speaker 1: but that was the first time someone was that aggressive
Speaker 1: towards me, So I honestly think I wasn't shore. I
Speaker 1: remember driving and just feeling this coldness like in me,
Speaker 1: and I'm just I think denial. It was instant. Just
Speaker 1: get home, then we'll deal with this tomorrow. And I honestly,
Speaker 1: at that point in my life, I've gotten so good
Speaker 1: at compartmentalizing things that I just put it aside and
Speaker 1: was like, I can't I can't accept this because if
Speaker 1: I accept this, that means that everything else was a lie.
Speaker 1: And I thought when I wasn't ready to do that.
Speaker 1: We talked a little bit already about how Rebecca thought
Speaker 1: she didn't have a grasp of reality because of being
Speaker 1: gas light it for years. Her ex was just so
Speaker 1: brazen in his last by the end. So, Carrie, were
Speaker 1: there times that your ex guests letted you even about
Speaker 1: things that should have been so obviously incorrect. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: there were several that I had definitive proof of. I
Speaker 1: think it was Christmas for New Year's and we got
Speaker 1: in an argument and he pushed me on the ground
Speaker 1: and I was in shock, and my friends saw it.
Speaker 1: And after that I ended up spending the night at
Speaker 1: of friends and then seeing him the next day and
Speaker 1: he just flat outside that didn't happen. He slipped like
Speaker 1: I didn't touch you. Oh my gosh, I know. And
Speaker 1: then there was a second time where he actually was
Speaker 1: very financially abusive as well, and I ended up spending
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. And keep in mind we had the
Speaker 1: same job. It wasn't as if I was out earning
Speaker 1: him by a lot of money, but basically we would
Speaker 1: go on trips and I would spend money on everything.
Speaker 1: And it was strange because I honestly didn't notice it
Speaker 1: at first. It was very small here and there, and
Speaker 1: then I ended up pulling my bank statement because I
Speaker 1: was like something. I know he's not really contributing. I
Speaker 1: started to realize it, and I wrote down line by line.
Speaker 1: I remember, with my pen, line by line, wrote everything out.
Speaker 1: I'm like nine one whatever. You went to the store
Speaker 1: and I paid for all the groceries, presented him with this,
Speaker 1: and he just sat there and said, this isn't this
Speaker 1: isn't right. You made this up. You're being so dramatic. No,
Speaker 1: I just wouldn't even accept the hard truth in his hand.
Speaker 1: It's the lack of accountability and audacity. For me, I
Speaker 1: just cannot believe. I can't believe it. Actually, I guess
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't believe. I just want to acknowledge
Speaker 1: how much I applaud you for not being on an
Speaker 1: episode of Snapped. Okay, that's part I really did, because
Speaker 1: just hearing this, it's just I'm boiling because I'm just
Speaker 1: so angry knowing that someone is doing this another person intentionally.
Speaker 1: I was angry for a very long time. There's a
Speaker 1: reason that I started doing what I do and writing
Speaker 1: about this and working with the other victims. I hadn't
Speaker 1: found anything else in my life I was as passionate
Speaker 1: about until I went through it and realized this is
Speaker 1: happening a lot more than we think there really is.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you were able to unpack it
Speaker 1: and see the patterns and want to change. That is key,
Speaker 1: because otherwise people just continue to look for that same
Speaker 1: bread crumbing up overadalming and just pieces of and then
Speaker 1: the wishful thinking of just hoping things will change, and
Speaker 1: you look up it it's been years and finding a
Speaker 1: purpose that could be a positive outcome from all of
Speaker 1: this is also a true gift, and that you're helping
Speaker 1: other people. Thank you, Thank you. That's the one silver
Speaker 1: lining of the Honestly, it's the silver lining of the experience.
Speaker 1: I ask you before Tracy goes onto her next piece,
Speaker 1: how is your faith after having, you know, the cult,
Speaker 1: experience with the church and then having the relationship, do
Speaker 1: you have a faith based that you feel is more
Speaker 1: successful that you've been able to establish for yourself since
Speaker 1: you left them. That's a great question. I would like
Speaker 1: to say I'm spiritually homeless or agnostic, but I am
Speaker 1: not against religion in any way. I'm against some of
Speaker 1: the things that come out of it and some of
Speaker 1: the abuse that we've seen in some of the bigger
Speaker 1: organized religions, but I would say I'm still very open
Speaker 1: to different spiritual paths, but as of now, I haven't
Speaker 1: found one that's specifically that I would put it into it.
Speaker 1: If that makes sense. No, and I respect that, and
Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear it because I know this. Sometimes
Speaker 1: people are just turned off altogether absolutely even want to
Speaker 1: So I'm glad that you are open, and I hope
Speaker 1: that you just find that space, whatever that is. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Dr Romney made a very important distinction at the Red
Speaker 1: Table between liars and gas lighters. She said, you can
Speaker 1: bring a liar around when you bring evidence. A gas
Speaker 1: lighter will double down on their deceit when you catch them,
Speaker 1: and they'll turn it into your crazy. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us about a time when you went on vacation and
Speaker 1: he tried to deny his financial abuse this joker. I'm
Speaker 1: telling you absolutely there is a happy ending to this story,
Speaker 1: so don't worry. This wasn't the end of my dating life. Goodness.
Speaker 1: We had several situations where we would go on trips.
Speaker 1: I don't even know if I want to call it
Speaker 1: a vacation, because you know I was I was the
Speaker 1: one paying for everything, So we can really do really
Speaker 1: lavish trips. It was vacation. He was on vacation when
Speaker 1: I was supplying his life habits, so that was great.
Speaker 1: But the thing is, if he were to admit that
Speaker 1: I was paying for everything and that he wasn't contributing
Speaker 1: to the relationship, the gig would be up right, Like
Speaker 1: then I realized, oh, I'm right, which is a validation
Speaker 1: he doesn't want me, and like realization he doesn't want
Speaker 1: me to have, so there will There were several ffs
Speaker 1: where he would forget his credit card and then he
Speaker 1: would tell me, oh, I'll get just pay it'll be
Speaker 1: it'll be fine, whatever, and then later I would bring
Speaker 1: it up and he would just say no, like we
Speaker 1: went half on that, like I'm not financially abusing you,
Speaker 1: I'm contributing. He would constantly say he contributed, and I
Speaker 1: even at one point called him out because I said,
Speaker 1: you don't even contribute with your friends, and he tried
Speaker 1: to tell me that he did contribute because he brought
Speaker 1: the bongo drums and contributed to the musical creative aspect
Speaker 1: of the gatherings. Okay, okay, I mean yeah, the bonges. Okay.
Speaker 1: I was like, what like that sounded like a professional
Speaker 1: bongo player, like he should have been told him with
Speaker 1: it's a percussionist. Absolutely not, absolutely not. I contributed. I
Speaker 1: brought the bongos. No your bongos, sir. But that was
Speaker 1: the thing. No accountability. He's somehow sputted to where he
Speaker 1: genuinely projected that conviction that he was contributing. And I
Speaker 1: was like, how do you argue with the bongos? I
Speaker 1: don't know. What can you say with the bongos? Dude?
Speaker 1: What is your deal? He thought he was the probably
Speaker 1: did he did? He thought he was bringing that talent
Speaker 1: everyone gather around. Did you meet his parents? Scary? I
Speaker 1: met his mother, who was quite narcissistic as well, which
Speaker 1: I'm sure is where some of this came from. He
Speaker 1: didn't have a relationship with his father. That is because
Speaker 1: I was like, it's either one of two things. He's
Speaker 1: either like a sociopath and his parents are done with
Speaker 1: him and they don't even know he is exerting his
Speaker 1: control because he had none of That's what happened was
Speaker 1: a chip off the block. Fix it lord, Okay, Carrie,
Speaker 1: When you were able to finally see your expert who
Speaker 1: he was and what he was what was that like
Speaker 1: for you? I feel like it was a bunch of
Speaker 1: little things. But I remember I had a trip planned
Speaker 1: with my best friend and I got away for a weekend.
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds so small, but we went
Speaker 1: to Nashville. I went to this concert of a small
Speaker 1: musician I love, and I ended up front and center
Speaker 1: stage and he like threw me a guitar pick, and
Speaker 1: I just remember standing there and I was having this
Speaker 1: beautiful life moment and I thought to myself, this is
Speaker 1: not going to exist if I don't leave my ex.
Speaker 1: I I just snapped in a place and I felt
Speaker 1: this piece and I felt like myself again. I knew
Speaker 1: not to end things on right then and there, so
Speaker 1: I waited till we got back. I made sure that
Speaker 1: his roommates were home, and I went and I ended things.
Speaker 1: And I have never had someone react so strangely in
Speaker 1: my entire life. And I remember sitting on the bed
Speaker 1: and I had constructed a very I'm still to my core,
Speaker 1: I am kind even breaking up with someone like this,
Speaker 1: I do it. I'm not. I could have said so
Speaker 1: many things, but ultimately I just said, I'm not myself
Speaker 1: with you. I don't feel free I don't feel supported,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to go be with someone who makes
Speaker 1: me feel that way. And he kind of fought for it,
Speaker 1: and then it was like a switch and he just
Speaker 1: stands up and he starts cleaning his room and throwing
Speaker 1: stuff in a bag. And I sat there and I
Speaker 1: slowly got a few things I still had in the room.
Speaker 1: I went to leave and I got in my car,
Speaker 1: and he walked by to go to the trash and
Speaker 1: he looked back at me. And I have never, at
Speaker 1: any other point in my life had someone look at
Speaker 1: me like they wanted to kill me. Like in his eyes.
Speaker 1: I've never seen such hatred. Just it was absolutely chilling.
Speaker 1: Like to this day, I can still remember how it was.
Speaker 1: I bet because now he's thinking, I have to go
Speaker 1: start with someone else. That is so scary. Had you
Speaker 1: had any therapy at that point. No, I had not
Speaker 1: had any therapy at that point. So this is how
Speaker 1: I figured out what was happening is I had started
Speaker 1: googling his behaviors and at the time, honestly, there wasn't
Speaker 1: a lot about narraticism. And I found information and I
Speaker 1: started reading people's stories and I went down this rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: I was validated. I was like, other people are experiencing this,
Speaker 1: This is not normal. I'd had relationships. I knew that
Speaker 1: something was off, and the number one thing I read
Speaker 1: was to make sure that I planned how I was
Speaker 1: going to leave and make sure that I wasn't alone.
Speaker 1: And the good thing is we weren't out of stage
Speaker 1: where we lived together. We didn't have kids, which made
Speaker 1: it a lot easier for me than a lot of
Speaker 1: other victims who don't have it that easy. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: where they're literally financially intertwined, or they have children, or
Speaker 1: they occupy a space that they share, that's that's important. Gosh, wow,
Speaker 1: you were so brave. I thank you. Right, there was
Speaker 1: no option. I think it was just there was no
Speaker 1: I knew if I didn't leave, I would die. You
Speaker 1: would have and if you would have died physically, there
Speaker 1: is an internal death that can happen when you're minimized constantly.
Speaker 1: And what I heard with the concert experience was like
Speaker 1: you finally got outside in the sun. You were like, so,
Speaker 1: this is what it's like to be free and have
Speaker 1: fresh air, and to have some light in my life
Speaker 1: and some joy in my heart. I could breathe again
Speaker 1: for the first time in a long time, and after
Speaker 1: a while you don't think it's possible. I feel like
Speaker 1: you start to think, like us, this is just they're
Speaker 1: right right. The opening theme music, too Snapped is just
Speaker 1: running in loops in my head. I'm telling you, Tracy,
Speaker 1: I feel like you're gonna snap for me. I feel
Speaker 1: like there's a decade later. Don't don't let me go there.
Speaker 1: It's crazy. It's good. I wasn't in your friend group
Speaker 1: at the time. Okay, I mean, I'm all about peace,
Speaker 1: but there's something as this man has earned okay and greed.
Speaker 1: Dr Romney had some very clear advice for people getting
Speaker 1: out of relationships with narcissists and gas lighters. She said,
Speaker 1: when people are in their post gas lighting, post narcissistic phase,
Speaker 1: I prescribe a twelve month detox. Absolutely no relationships, no sex,
Speaker 1: get a vibrator, call it a day, but you are
Speaker 1: not touching anyone. You need to find you. You need
Speaker 1: to figure out what kind of pizza you're like. You
Speaker 1: need to figure out what music you really do like.
Speaker 1: You need to figure out what temperature you want. That
Speaker 1: thermisy susceptible is the toy for me. I love it.
Speaker 1: That's why I love about Dr Romney. She pulls no punches.
Speaker 1: What advice do you have cared for people experiencing gas lighting?
Speaker 1: M I was gonna say, I don't think I heard
Speaker 1: that from Dr Romney when I ended things, so I
Speaker 1: can't say I followed the same advice, but I will
Speaker 1: say it was a year before I was in a
Speaker 1: committed relationship again, so at least half of the way there.
Speaker 1: But I would say it's hard to give advice if
Speaker 1: someone doesn't know that they're in this situation. So I
Speaker 1: would just say, if something fells off, listen to your gut. Luckily,
Speaker 1: we live in a day and age when there's a
Speaker 1: lot of information available on the internet, even now on
Speaker 1: apps like Instagram, TikTok, anything, there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: bringing awareness to this, whether it's gaslighting, narcissism, psychological abuse.
Speaker 1: So I would just say, if you feel like something's off,
Speaker 1: start researching what's happening, and you might find that someone
Speaker 1: else has that advice, or you can get validated that
Speaker 1: they're going through the same thing, and then from there
Speaker 1: you can start planning what you're gonna do next. Because
Speaker 1: I think half the battle or almost the full battle
Speaker 1: is even recognizing what's happening, right, that's good advice. Of course,
Speaker 1: we're going to wind down soon, but we have to
Speaker 1: ask you before we hit out, Carrie, what is life
Speaker 1: like with this happy ending? You share that it's it's
Speaker 1: successful so far. Yes, so well, I have been very well.
Speaker 1: I actually just got married and thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: It was amazing. We've been together almost five years, so
Speaker 1: he was absolutely amazing. We met and I was just
Speaker 1: starting therapy. I was having PTSD and he was so
Speaker 1: supportive of everything. And I don't want to credit someone
Speaker 1: else for my healing, but I will say that having
Speaker 1: a partner who understood it took the time to really
Speaker 1: understand my trauma. He hadn't dated anyone who had gone
Speaker 1: through that, and he took the time to figure out
Speaker 1: why I was maybe projecting things from the past on him,
Speaker 1: and how to really aid in my healing and be supportive.
Speaker 1: And it was absolutely amazing. So now we have an
Speaker 1: amazing life together. We love to travel. We have a
Speaker 1: Golden Retriever that's just the fluffiest at all. But yes,
Speaker 1: but I would just say that I think so many
Speaker 1: people can get in a situation where they think this
Speaker 1: is it. And I would just say I did get
Speaker 1: to a place where I was happy and content to
Speaker 1: be alone and that it sounds so cliche, but I
Speaker 1: kid you not. That's when I met my husband around
Speaker 1: the same time, because you had found your your whole.
Speaker 1: I've made yourself whole, so you weren't looking for someone
Speaker 1: else to fill you up and make you whole. That
Speaker 1: we're on your own, a whole person, so you can
Speaker 1: bring your whole self to a relationship and be healthy
Speaker 1: and happy. That for you, Yes, I love that. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Tracy and Carol, Oh my gosh, it's
Speaker 1: feels like therapy for me or you, Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I could talk to you so we
Speaker 1: could keep talking. Yea happy And we don't want we
Speaker 1: don't want to wear you out. But we've loved, love
Speaker 1: having you here. You have been just such a phenomenal
Speaker 1: guest with us. Thank you so much. I will enjoy it.
Speaker 1: And if my story can help anyone out there, then
Speaker 1: once again it's worth it. Where can people find you though, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you're doing a good work. Yes, thank you. I
Speaker 1: have a blog, but I primarily write on medium. You
Speaker 1: can just search for me. Carry when c A R R, I, E, W,
Speaker 1: Y and N and then otherwise I'm on Instagram Carrie
Speaker 1: Underscore when Musings. Thank you for coming to the Virtual
Speaker 1: Red Table. It was great to be here. We want
Speaker 1: to know how you're feeling about this new season of
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk. We are open to talk about anything
Speaker 1: with you all, so please send in your questions at
Speaker 1: Let's Red Table that a red Table talk dot com.
Speaker 1: And speaking of listeners, we want to thank you. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for listening. Make sure you subscribe on
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, and please rate this podcast on
Speaker 1: Apple podcast Rate us up five. We'll be back next
Speaker 1: week for another episode of Let's Red Table That. A
Speaker 1: big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith,
Speaker 1: Ellen Rackitton and Fallon Jethrow. And thank you to our
Speaker 1: producer Kyla Canru and our associate producer Yolanda Chow. And finally,
Speaker 1: thank you to our sound engineers Calvin Baylis and Devin Donneghy.
Speaker 1: We love you. Let's Red Table, Let's Red Table, Let's
Speaker 1: Red Table, Let's Red Table That Okay? Is that the
Speaker 1: church version? Okay