Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. I'm joined
Speaker 1: my producers Sophie, and we are so thrilled to be
Speaker 1: joined with the one, the only, Robert Evans behind the
Speaker 1: Bastards of Robert. Thank you so much for being here today. Hey,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me with all of the stuff happening
Speaker 1: and unfolding right now. You're the person that I was like, Damn,
Speaker 1: I really want to get Robert's take. I truly don't
Speaker 1: know what the fun is going on, Like, how are
Speaker 1: you in these in these very weird times? Well, I
Speaker 1: don't know. You know, the thing that we're dealing with
Speaker 1: right now that's so peculiar is there's these there's these
Speaker 1: figures from like the shitty side of the Internet who
Speaker 1: were kind of for years folks who did the same
Speaker 1: kind of research I did. We kind of talked about
Speaker 1: them like like radioactive material, Like we were just kind
Speaker 1: of hoping that we could keep them underground and and
Speaker 1: and not get into the groundwater. And then Nick Flintes
Speaker 1: wound up hanging out on Kanye's private jet, eating any
Speaker 1: food with him and fucking middle of nowhere Maryland, and uh,
Speaker 1: and I guess that ships out of the bag now.
Speaker 1: First of all, disrespectful to Frederick Maryland. Sorry it looked
Speaker 1: like a terrible town. No, it is, I it is.
Speaker 1: You know, that's sort of a good place to start.
Speaker 1: So I have to say I'm not I was not
Speaker 1: terribly familiar with Nick Fuentez, and I saw a lot
Speaker 1: of reporting saying calling him a quote like right wing extremist.
Speaker 1: But that almost doesn't seem totally accurate to me. Can
Speaker 1: can you tell me a bit about his ideology? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's frustrating to me that he's just being called a
Speaker 1: right wing extremist by people like I think Molly Haberman
Speaker 1: was the person who wrote that article. But because that's
Speaker 1: that's about as accurate as saying that like Pino Sha
Speaker 1: had issues with democracy. Nick Flintes is a is a Nazi,
Speaker 1: um And I when I say that, I don't mean
Speaker 1: it kind of people use that sometimes as a as
Speaker 1: a pejorative these days. I mean that in the very
Speaker 1: literal senses. And he really likes Adolf Hitler, who believes
Speaker 1: in the tenants of national socialism. He's a little bit
Speaker 1: different from a mainstream Nazi, and that he's like Catholic fascist,
Speaker 1: but he denies the Holocaust. Um. He has these, you know,
Speaker 1: these kind of coy little ways of doing it where
Speaker 1: he'll talk about like cookies and baking cookies and ovens
Speaker 1: to try to make the point that six million people
Speaker 1: couldn't have been killed. Like it's it's all really gross
Speaker 1: and kind of tweet and um. And that's Nick. And
Speaker 1: I guess that there's a couple of things about him
Speaker 1: kind of bubbling up into the mainstream that are so weird.
Speaker 1: One of them is just that he's much more extreme
Speaker 1: than any of these all right figures. You know, these guys,
Speaker 1: even like Milo, who's also involved in the whole Kanye thing,
Speaker 1: they would always keep just enough plausible deniability about the
Speaker 1: anti semitism and about the outright Nazi stuff that they
Speaker 1: could be like, ah, the Left, look at them, they're
Speaker 1: just trying to cancel me. They call everybody a nazi. Nick,
Speaker 1: there's you can find him like videos of him just
Speaker 1: saying like, yeah, we can't have a democracy because people
Speaker 1: don't like the things that we like, so we have
Speaker 1: to take over the government, instituted dictatorship and forced them
Speaker 1: to believe the things we want them to believe. He's
Speaker 1: a The other thing about Nick that it makes it
Speaker 1: kind of peculiar that he's reaching into the mainstream is
Speaker 1: that he's he's too gross for it. Nick is a
Speaker 1: guy who will do stuff like burst into his like
Speaker 1: close because he has kind of a little cult following
Speaker 1: of young men. He'll do stuff like, you know, while
Speaker 1: traveling with them, run a black light over their room
Speaker 1: to see if they've been masturbating. Uh. He says that
Speaker 1: having sex with women is the gayest thing that you
Speaker 1: can do. He's probably he's probably having Yeah, there's a lot.
Speaker 1: He lives at his mom's basement. He's such a he's
Speaker 1: a weird little grimmlin man. He's also a very talented
Speaker 1: propagandist and and pretty good at running a room. There
Speaker 1: was a moment a couple of years ago that the
Speaker 1: Knowledge Fight Guys covered where Alex Jones was like headlining
Speaker 1: this rally d C this like big night of speeches. Now,
Speaker 1: Alex is an alcoholic, and he got way too drunk
Speaker 1: to properly m c the event and was kind of
Speaker 1: just like flopping all over the place, and Nick took over,
Speaker 1: uh and and and managed it pretty competently. You know. Again,
Speaker 1: it was a room full of gropers, which are kind
Speaker 1: of what you know, you call his followers called themselves
Speaker 1: and other similar kind of fascist weirdos. But he's a
Speaker 1: he's a talented showman, and he's also I think he's
Speaker 1: a little too far off the map to actually go
Speaker 1: mainstream and the way that he wants. That's clearly why
Speaker 1: he's hanging out around Kanye, you can notice. And so
Speaker 1: we're recording this the day after Kanya was just on
Speaker 1: a guy named Tim Pools livestream show, which is a
Speaker 1: fairly popular livestream YouTube news program. He has like ten
Speaker 1: million followers or some ship, so there's subscribers, so he's
Speaker 1: he's very popular. Tim was really looking forward to having
Speaker 1: Flints and Napolis and uh and and Kanye on, because
Speaker 1: obviously Kanye is huge. But Kanye walks off the set
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes in over being very very lightly pushed back
Speaker 1: on about anti Semitism, like so mild. It's very mild.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to watch what these because both of
Speaker 1: these guys Eonopolis is his own kind of grifter, and
Speaker 1: I kind of suspect that he and Fuintes are behind
Speaker 1: the scenes competing rather viciously to try and control the
Speaker 1: direction Kanye goes well as soon as Kanye walks off,
Speaker 1: Melo Eleonopolis gets up and walks out after him. I'm
Speaker 1: not even mad that you mispronounced his name, like, I'm
Speaker 1: okay with it. There's no way to pronounce it right,
Speaker 1: I mean it's Milo. I'm into the Melo pronunciation, to
Speaker 1: be honest, I don't agree with you. But he he
Speaker 1: gets up and he immediately goes out after Kanye UM,
Speaker 1: And I think it's because Milos kind of going after
Speaker 1: this whole. He wants to he's kissing ass. He just
Speaker 1: he wants to be close to Kanye. He wants to
Speaker 1: get all as much of that fucking money as he
Speaker 1: possibly can, and that means be in the dude's body. Man.
Speaker 1: You know, Kanye gets upset, you roll out there and
Speaker 1: you try to make sure he's okay. Nick stays seated
Speaker 1: and stays on message and keeps trying to talk about
Speaker 1: the Jews because Nick sees Nick has a desire to
Speaker 1: kind of keep steering Kanye in this direction. But Nick's
Speaker 1: primary purpose up there is to push the things that
Speaker 1: Nick believes, and he sees Kanye as a way to
Speaker 1: Um to magnify that ship. And you can see it
Speaker 1: very clearly in that clip the different ways in which
Speaker 1: they're both thinking about him in this opportunity. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's what I got right now. Something that you
Speaker 1: tweeted that I thought was really interesting was this idea
Speaker 1: that and I'm not excusing any of Kanye West's bullfit.
Speaker 1: It's anti Semitic and anti black and misogynists. Yeah, mental
Speaker 1: health is not an excuse for any of those things.
Speaker 1: But do you sort of see any like part of
Speaker 1: me wonder is this to people kind of trying to
Speaker 1: I don't want to use word take advantage of, but
Speaker 1: steer someone who is clearly having some kind of like
Speaker 1: mental health issue to use him for their own benefit.
Speaker 1: All Yeah, yeah, I mean Kanye number one, we're not
Speaker 1: like theorizing about a guy's mental health. Kanye has been institutionalized.
Speaker 1: You know, he has manic cycles, He's had psychotic breaks.
Speaker 1: This is something that Kim Kardashians talked about. And if
Speaker 1: you just kind of look at the way he's talking
Speaker 1: in that video, this is not like I think he's
Speaker 1: in the middle of a psychotic break. And I think
Speaker 1: that Nick and I think that Milo are both trying
Speaker 1: to kind of push him in directions that are more
Speaker 1: beneficial to them because they see him as easy to manipulate.
Speaker 1: Right now, and again, as you said, this doesn't mean
Speaker 1: like he's not racist because and then says to mean
Speaker 1: that the racism isn't real because lots of people have
Speaker 1: psychotic breaks and don't hang out with Milianopolis, and Nick
Speaker 1: Flint does. The fact that he is racist, the fact
Speaker 1: that he's become convinced, that he has convinced himself of
Speaker 1: all of these anti Semitic conspiracy theories, all of that
Speaker 1: is the reason why he's in this position. But I
Speaker 1: also think he's not really in his right mind now,
Speaker 1: and I part of that is because if he was,
Speaker 1: if he was coldly and smoothly operating for the position
Speaker 1: of trying to push anti Semitic politics because he was
Speaker 1: just a racist, this is not how you do it
Speaker 1: as Kanye West. This is not the way. This is
Speaker 1: too uncontrolled to open and out there. He's alienating people
Speaker 1: too quickly, there's no plausible deniability, and he's not actually
Speaker 1: making a good case. He's getting like too agitated and angry.
Speaker 1: Like hopping off of the tim pool thing is not
Speaker 1: an action of a guy who's completely in control It's
Speaker 1: an action of a guy who's kind of lost anyone
Speaker 1: who will try to stop him from following his like
Speaker 1: momentary whims and impulses, which is what I think we're
Speaker 1: seeing in his behavior. So I don't think that you're
Speaker 1: trying to mitigate his comicity in this by saying like, oh,
Speaker 1: these are not the actions of a guy who's capable
Speaker 1: of thinking through everything that he's doing right now either.
Speaker 1: So what do you make of the fact that these
Speaker 1: figures like Kanyo Best at own point was like a
Speaker 1: largely a cultural figure. What do you make of the
Speaker 1: fact that these extremist types are now powering around with
Speaker 1: these cultural figures, Like does that? Does that mean anything?
Speaker 1: Like why do you think that we're seeing that? I
Speaker 1: mean we're seeing that because Kanye is Kanye has always
Speaker 1: been a guy who was very much kind of enthralled
Speaker 1: of his of his worst impulses. This is not the
Speaker 1: first time we've seen him go in that direction. So
Speaker 1: one of the things that I think we're seeing with
Speaker 1: Kanye is this is a guy who's very prominent and
Speaker 1: very wealthy and not used to being told no. Has
Speaker 1: completely alighted the circle of people who might have moderated
Speaker 1: his behavior at points in the past, and I think
Speaker 1: that made him really vulnerable. And I think it's kind
Speaker 1: of like an immune system breaking down, and there were
Speaker 1: just these holes in the immune system. And at some
Speaker 1: point Milo got close to him. And Milo is a
Speaker 1: pretty savvy when it comes to manipulating individual people. This
Speaker 1: guy's history, by the way, I mean, there's no way
Speaker 1: that sends well for Kanye Unopolis. Like one of the
Speaker 1: things he likes to do most is blackmail people who
Speaker 1: will record them without them being aware. He's the guy
Speaker 1: who destroyed Richard Spencer by releasing that recording of Spencer
Speaker 1: at that that club in Dallas. He's that kind of dude,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure he's doing that with Kanye, but he's
Speaker 1: also I think trying to wrap himself around the guy,
Speaker 1: make him into himself indispensable, be like the dude's emotional
Speaker 1: support network, because I think he sees he's a predator.
Speaker 1: He sees very in a very savvy way. Oh, this
Speaker 1: guy's just gotten rid of all of the people who
Speaker 1: were doing that for him and is alone and there's
Speaker 1: a place for me. I think Nick got into it
Speaker 1: from a different position. Wentes is a an opportunist as well,
Speaker 1: but he's an opportunist for his message and his message
Speaker 1: Like number one, I think he's always liked Kanye as
Speaker 1: a as a performer. There's evidence of that. He's dressed
Speaker 1: as a few times. So you've got both this kind
Speaker 1: of this weird Nazi kid has always idolized Kanye and
Speaker 1: his ability to get attention, and now is able to
Speaker 1: use Kanye's ability to get attention to push this Nazi
Speaker 1: message he's been trying to push for years. Uh So
Speaker 1: it makes sense to me that it's happening. I don't
Speaker 1: know that this is evidence of a broader trend in
Speaker 1: the culture other than that because of the Internet, a
Speaker 1: lot of famous people have been exposed to anti Semitic
Speaker 1: and other sort of fringe fascist conspiracy theories just like
Speaker 1: regular people have. And so you are seeing like there,
Speaker 1: but these aren't the only cases of this. You are
Speaker 1: seeing more of these people who are culturally prominent like
Speaker 1: come out and express their belief in these very shady conspiracies.
Speaker 1: Kanye is just again kind of lacks the self control
Speaker 1: or the ability to moderate himself, which is why he's
Speaker 1: gone so much further. Yeah, and let's talk a bit
Speaker 1: about Milo. We we covered Milo his coordinated rasmic campaign
Speaker 1: against actor Leslie Jones, and that episode ends with like, oh,
Speaker 1: Milo is broke. You know, he got kicked off of Twitter,
Speaker 1: he felt from grace, you know, lost his lost his
Speaker 1: book deal, not speaking at Seapack. I think I saw
Speaker 1: him like on YouTube selling like religious junk of some
Speaker 1: kind in turning for Marjorie Taylor Green. Do you think
Speaker 1: that this is like, is this Milo's comeback attaching himself
Speaker 1: to Kanye Do you think that it's like, this is
Speaker 1: my attempt to get back in the line, might build
Speaker 1: bad platform back and that kind of thing. I actually
Speaker 1: don't think he that's his plan in that way. I
Speaker 1: think Milo he's spent a lot of time trying to
Speaker 1: get back in the limelight. He's he's he's pushed a
Speaker 1: lot in order to like just kind of keep his
Speaker 1: name out there in any way, shape or form. But
Speaker 1: I also think he's coming to a point where he's
Speaker 1: had a number of cycles of being in the news
Speaker 1: and being out of the news, and I think what
Speaker 1: he cares about more than anything is not being poor.
Speaker 1: I think Kanye is very wealthy still and also easy
Speaker 1: to manipulate, right now, and I think Milo sees that
Speaker 1: if he stays near him and makes himself indispensable, there's
Speaker 1: a way that some of that money is going to
Speaker 1: fall off, and maybe it will be enough that he
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be as much of a shameless, grifting
Speaker 1: piece of ship as he has been. Uh, he can
Speaker 1: he can actually like live the life that this was.
Speaker 1: He's always been in it for the money, right, Nick
Speaker 1: believes something. It's horrible, but Nick is a believer. Milo
Speaker 1: has always been a grifter, and I think he sees
Speaker 1: this as his best shot at getting a big pay
Speaker 1: day and probably writing a book about it at some point. Right, Like, again,
Speaker 1: he's planning to betray Kanye. Not that I care about
Speaker 1: Kanye getting betrayed, but that is what he's planning to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I wonder, like I remember a few weeks ago
Speaker 1: when Kanye announced he was buying parlor, and I was
Speaker 1: sad to see that it took a little bit of
Speaker 1: time for that story to be reported as like he's
Speaker 1: been buddying up with Candice Owen. Candice Owen's husband owns parlor.
Speaker 1: Now he's buying parlor. It's not a very robust platform,
Speaker 1: Like I do I do think that, like it's like
Speaker 1: that axiom a fool in his money, you know. I
Speaker 1: just like, this is a wealthy person who is clearly
Speaker 1: having some issues and also espousing the kind of fucked
Speaker 1: up ideology that speaks to these people, and so they're
Speaker 1: all just sort of like rushing some of them are
Speaker 1: just sort of rushing into cash in on it. I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you followed Kanye's career at all, like
Speaker 1: up until now, I think had a lot of the
Speaker 1: same people around him and add some kind of a
Speaker 1: loyal support system, and now he just has a bunch
Speaker 1: of weird nazi grifters around him and they're taking advantage
Speaker 1: of the fact that he's alone. Yeah. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that's I think pretty obvious. And I again, like none
Speaker 1: of this is to say that like, oh we should
Speaker 1: feel sorry for Kanye. No, literally, literally, no one who
Speaker 1: has struggled with mental health has ever had more resources
Speaker 1: available to them. And I know just mean that the
Speaker 1: money sense, Like whatever you want to say about Kim Kardashian,
Speaker 1: she really cared about him and tried like did the
Speaker 1: deeply embarrassing and difficult thing, which is like publicly make
Speaker 1: her husband's mental health something of like popular conversation in
Speaker 1: order to like try and get him some kind of help.
Speaker 1: And you know, none of this. You know, he hasn't
Speaker 1: taken any of the opportunities he's had to like deal
Speaker 1: with this ship. So I'm not sympathetic to him, but
Speaker 1: I do think it's important to talk to like talk
Speaker 1: about this as what it is, rather than pretend like, oh,
Speaker 1: Kanye is part of some scheme. Uh, Kanye is not
Speaker 1: thinking any of this through. He's not really able to
Speaker 1: at the moment. Yeah, I think you're exactly right, And
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the reasons why conversations about
Speaker 1: Kanye can be so difficult, because it's easy for folks
Speaker 1: to hear like, oh, I'm excuse. I'm not holding him
Speaker 1: accountable for his behavior, for his ideology, for the things
Speaker 1: that he's saying. I think like nobody is saying that
Speaker 1: he is not responsible for the ship that he's saying
Speaker 1: and doing. But also opportunists and grifters are definitely taking
Speaker 1: advantage of him and definitely trying to steer him in
Speaker 1: a direction that will be youthful for them in some capacity.
Speaker 1: So it's like and even talking about his anti Semitism.
Speaker 1: I think that, like we have so far Togo and
Speaker 1: conversations about black anti semitism, it's really like have a
Speaker 1: conversation about it. I think that with Kanye it's so
Speaker 1: clear that we're not there yet, Like we're not really
Speaker 1: having the conversation. Yeah, I mean, and that's that parts
Speaker 1: a little bit above my pay grade, But um, I
Speaker 1: think the conversation of like how this he got exposed
Speaker 1: to this stuff that's really worth having. I'm personally very
Speaker 1: curious about like how long this has been going on.
Speaker 1: As far as I'm aware, there's not really signs and
Speaker 1: his music where he's being like covertly anti semitic. I
Speaker 1: don't think he was accused of that, So my my
Speaker 1: guess is that this is a thing that happened due
Speaker 1: to his increasing isolation and you know, increased amount of
Speaker 1: time on the internet. But I am curious, like where
Speaker 1: they're friends of his at one point sending him videos
Speaker 1: who are just a little bit less far down the
Speaker 1: rabbit hole. Like I do want to know and think
Speaker 1: it's a valuable question, like what is the path that
Speaker 1: leads this guy to being willing to sit in a
Speaker 1: room with Nick Flintes and not like getting the funk
Speaker 1: up when Nick starts talking, right, I think that is
Speaker 1: a worthy question. I just don't actually know the answer
Speaker 1: to that right now. Yeah, same, you know, speaking about
Speaker 1: that dinner that Nick and Kanye had with Trump, I've
Speaker 1: seen a lot of handrying about why folks in the
Speaker 1: GOP aren't standing up to denounce the fact that Trump
Speaker 1: had dinner with Flintes and Kanye West. Why do you
Speaker 1: think we're seeing that because Nick number one, the Republican
Speaker 1: Party is very much like tied to the Israeli government.
Speaker 1: They are a major funder and those like a pack
Speaker 1: and has proven willing to like look askance at some
Speaker 1: people who are just on the edge with their anti Semitism.
Speaker 1: Nick is not Nick is Nick is outright is a
Speaker 1: is a hitlerist. So Number one, he's he's just too
Speaker 1: far for it. And it's one of those things I
Speaker 1: don't believe. So this is a topic of debate, like
Speaker 1: did Trump know who Fuintes was ahead of time? You know,
Speaker 1: does he secretly like was he hoping this would go? Like?
Speaker 1: I don't actually think so. I'm sure that someone had
Speaker 1: talked to Trump a couple of times about Fuintes. I
Speaker 1: suspect maybe he even watched a clip of the kid
Speaker 1: talking about Trump when like an aid put it in
Speaker 1: front of his face. But but Nick does not. Nick
Speaker 1: did not up until recently, exist on like the normal Internet.
Speaker 1: He was not like a dude a mainstream person would encounter.
Speaker 1: And Trump is not going to be just like Trump
Speaker 1: doesn't go find this ship on his own. People put
Speaker 1: stuff in front of his face. And I I one thing,
Speaker 1: I'm certain whether or not he had heard of Nick
Speaker 1: before this. I don't believe that when he Kanye walked
Speaker 1: in with Flintest behind him, Donald Trump said, oh, that's
Speaker 1: Nick Flintes. I simply do not believe that. And I
Speaker 1: don't believe that like Nick started in on t and
Speaker 1: from the what we have of the conversation, it doesn't
Speaker 1: sound like Flintes started in with a bunch of anti
Speaker 1: Semitic conspiracies. He started in praising Trump, and so Trump
Speaker 1: was like, I really like this kid, And that's the
Speaker 1: way Trump works, right. Uh. Trump also is all about
Speaker 1: self protection and self preservation. So I'm not surprised that,
Speaker 1: Like and I suspect the way it went is that,
Speaker 1: like they had this conversation, he talks with Kanye, He's like, boy,
Speaker 1: I like this kid who's saying nice things about me,
Speaker 1: And as soon as they leave, an aid walks up
Speaker 1: and says, that's motherfucking Nazi boss, Like we like and
Speaker 1: that that guy, that guy is a little bit like,
Speaker 1: we don't want to be associated with that dude. And
Speaker 1: Trump was like, oh, alright, fuck uh, And then he
Speaker 1: issued that weird statement where he was like, Kanye didn't
Speaker 1: say anything get racist. Also, I don't know Nick Flintes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: normal statement to put out after you've just had a
Speaker 1: nice dinner. Like nothing anti semitical was discussed. We're all
Speaker 1: good there. I just don't understand because Marl lag is
Speaker 1: supposed to be praised as this super secure place. Not
Speaker 1: one motherfucker could say this is who that is before
Speaker 1: he got in the room. Well, I mean that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean it's not secure. Nick doesn't have any history of
Speaker 1: like violence, you know, the secret services job, And nobody's
Speaker 1: gonna say going to tell Donald who he's having a
Speaker 1: dinner with. No, I mean that that makes sense to
Speaker 1: me though, Like he is. Donald is also kind of
Speaker 1: like Trump, He's increasingly pushed away a lot of the
Speaker 1: people who used to be at his back as he's
Speaker 1: gotten weirder too. So I'm not surprised by that. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not really surprised by anything that happened in that meeting.
Speaker 1: I just I think it's less a sign that like, uh,
Speaker 1: Trump is openly embracing the Nazis in his missed and
Speaker 1: more a sign of like, yeah, when you have like
Speaker 1: no control over who you'll hang out with other than
Speaker 1: that they say ice things about you, you're gonna wind
Speaker 1: up talking, sitting down and eating with some Nazis. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Nazi your two's gonna slip in. Yeah. So speaking
Speaker 1: of someone who is kind of trumpy or I see
Speaker 1: as kind of trumpy, let's talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: Elon Musk. You know, Yeah, we've got Elon Musk buying Twitter,
Speaker 1: you know, Trump pastors social Do you see this as
Speaker 1: extremists sort of building their own media ecosystems? And how
Speaker 1: worried should we be about this in terms of like
Speaker 1: allowing kind of I don't know, extremist ideology, and even
Speaker 1: more than that, just sort of culti vibes, which I
Speaker 1: know that you've written a lot about. I want to
Speaker 1: talk about that as well. Do you see these bids
Speaker 1: for buying their own platforms as a problem. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's a huge problem. I do think one of
Speaker 1: the things I find interesting about Elon because look, we
Speaker 1: can all like talk about o Elon was always a grifter,
Speaker 1: and Elon has always been There's elements of that throughout
Speaker 1: his history. Certainly, he hasn't always been like this, and
Speaker 1: I don't think it's that he was just like keeping
Speaker 1: it on check and hiding his power level until he
Speaker 1: could reveal his true beliefs. I think Twitter has been deeply,
Speaker 1: deeply toxic for his brain. It is for everybody, but
Speaker 1: I think it's damaged him. He's he's got main character
Speaker 1: syndrome more than most people, and effectively, by buying this,
Speaker 1: he's turned himself into the everyday main character of Twitter,
Speaker 1: which is one of the worst things you can do
Speaker 1: for your mental health. And it's the thing that Trump
Speaker 1: did to himself. And I think part of why we're
Speaker 1: seeing Ellen get more trumpy is that he's put himself
Speaker 1: in the same environment and like a goldfish, his ego
Speaker 1: is growing to a to to fit the old container.
Speaker 1: I can't this is too early to say. Maybe I'll
Speaker 1: get embarrassed by making this statement. But I think maybe
Speaker 1: one reason why Trump hasn't come back to Twitter is
Speaker 1: that after going through Twitter withdrawals when he got booted,
Speaker 1: maybe Trump realized it was bad for him and doesn't
Speaker 1: actually want to go back. I don't think that's a
Speaker 1: zero percent chance, because I suspect it was pretty traumatic
Speaker 1: to him. Is like suddenly having that cut off, and
Speaker 1: maybe he's like, I don't want to get back into that,
Speaker 1: Like I got this truth social thing. When I do
Speaker 1: need to get something out, I could get it out,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't suck me up like Twitter, like it's
Speaker 1: not doesn't hit as hard as that old ship. Right,
Speaker 1: he's on that methodon now weeding himself off of it
Speaker 1: a little bit. I don't know, maybe not. Maybe he'll
Speaker 1: get back on Twitter tomorrow, but I kind of suspect
Speaker 1: that's what's happening. I think with somebody like Elon Musk,
Speaker 1: who I honestly i've never met him, but I can
Speaker 1: read and see, so I have my own opinions. Do
Speaker 1: think that there is something about Twitter that is bad,
Speaker 1: especially being surrounded by sycophants, by by yes men and
Speaker 1: fanboys that really has you getting high on your own supply.
Speaker 1: And people like you and me, like normal people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Twitter is not good for any of our brains, but
Speaker 1: most of us, when we put our phone down, we
Speaker 1: have somebody in our life who will call us on
Speaker 1: our bullshit, or tell us when we're acting ridiculous, or
Speaker 1: tell us when something that we're saying doesn't make any
Speaker 1: sense or is really harmful. And most of us have
Speaker 1: systems in our life for basic accountability, and it seems
Speaker 1: like people like Trump and a Musk maybe don't have that.
Speaker 1: Maybe they have insullct Like when I read these reports
Speaker 1: about how former space X and Tesla staffers had to
Speaker 1: spend so much time and energy kind of doing the
Speaker 1: window dressing specifically to play Kate Musk and like saying
Speaker 1: things that they knew that he would like, you know,
Speaker 1: setting up computers so that they looked like the matrix
Speaker 1: was happening on them, so that when Elon Musk was
Speaker 1: in the building he would think really cool science ship
Speaker 1: was happening, even though that was just a farce. You know. Well,
Speaker 1: I do want to say so that that those recollections
Speaker 1: of events come from. I believe it was originally a
Speaker 1: tumbler post from someone who was claiming that they worked
Speaker 1: at SpaceX and that this is the way everyone, this
Speaker 1: is the way the company worked, that there was like
Speaker 1: a lot of effort that went into kind of constraining
Speaker 1: Elon so that he could be used for the thing
Speaker 1: he was good at, which is pr without interrupting the workflow.
Speaker 1: And it it all seems I want to believe it,
Speaker 1: that we don't have any proof that that's true, right right,
Speaker 1: this is not no one's that that dude didn't go
Speaker 1: to like a jury or individual to go to a
Speaker 1: journalist and like prove that they were there. Other people
Speaker 1: weren't interviewed. I have found a couple other accounts of
Speaker 1: people who also claim, and again these are just on
Speaker 1: the internet, that they worked at SpaceX and that the
Speaker 1: stuff he was saying sound incredible. UM, but there's no
Speaker 1: proof of it at this moment. Now, I I would
Speaker 1: love to if if you work for SpaceX, if you
Speaker 1: if you worked in the company at this point, if
Speaker 1: you can either confirm or deny that account, please reach
Speaker 1: out to us, because I would love to be able
Speaker 1: to actually do some reporting on that. Um, because I
Speaker 1: I do want to believe it. It sounds right, but
Speaker 1: I do want to be clear we don't actually know
Speaker 1: whether or not that thing is real totally. I will
Speaker 1: add that in the uh the lawsuit against Tesla, one
Speaker 1: of the allegations made in that lawsuit is that when
Speaker 1: Elon Musk toward the I don't know show rooms, that
Speaker 1: all the employees knew that that meant to have black
Speaker 1: and brown like staffers basically hid because Elon must didn't
Speaker 1: want to see them. And so like that is a
Speaker 1: much more credible allegation to people are making that in
Speaker 1: a court of law, right, Like that's yeah, absolutely, so, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're you're exactly right, Like we don't know if that is,
Speaker 1: you know, a confirmed statement by somebody who actually worked there.
Speaker 1: But I do think like even the Tesla example does
Speaker 1: sort of speak to the idea that Elon Musk is
Speaker 1: someone for whom others in his orbit have to expand
Speaker 1: some energy to make happy in certain ways, and that
Speaker 1: like that is an understood thing. If that, if that,
Speaker 1: if those allegations in that law suitor to be believed,
Speaker 1: it does seem to be like that is he shows up. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: Well I think that, you know, I agree with you.
Speaker 1: I think that something I've always dislikeding On Musk, but
Speaker 1: I think that something has happened that has made him
Speaker 1: more trumpy, And I think part of it is probably
Speaker 1: how often he is embedding himself in these Twitter echo
Speaker 1: chambers that just tell him what do you want to
Speaker 1: hear and have fanboys and sycophans just being brilliant, brilliant,
Speaker 1: brilliant everything he says, Well, he's he's doing. You know.
Speaker 1: One of the things that one of the delusions that
Speaker 1: Twitter allows us all to feel is the because it
Speaker 1: it can get you, trap you in this kind of loop.
Speaker 1: It's not quite an echo chamber, because whatever loop you're in,
Speaker 1: whatever reality tunnel in Twitter you're in, there will be
Speaker 1: people you hate and disagree with their but it it
Speaker 1: traps you in this kind of like chunk of discourse
Speaker 1: that will give you a vastly like fucked up and
Speaker 1: inflated and incorrect view of like and this is again
Speaker 1: it depends are you on like uh like tech Twitter,
Speaker 1: you want journalist Twitter, you want black Twitter, right like,
Speaker 1: You'll get different variants of this, but none of them
Speaker 1: correspond directly to the real world because, for one thing,
Speaker 1: the couple of dozen million people who use Twitter it's
Speaker 1: not very large as a service, are all a specific
Speaker 1: selected group of the kind of weirdos who are likely
Speaker 1: to use Twitter. Not many, yeah so, but the it
Speaker 1: warps everyone's perspective if you let it right, if you
Speaker 1: don't use it the way it ought to be used,
Speaker 1: which is as a way of kind of curating the
Speaker 1: news and um a way of getting like a discrete
Speaker 1: set of opinions, but one that does not correspond to
Speaker 1: popular like throughout the you know, we had we had
Speaker 1: a gun control measure come up in Portland recently, and
Speaker 1: if I had listened to my uh my Twitter, you
Speaker 1: know followers, I would have been pretty sure that it
Speaker 1: was going to fail. But I was also paying attention
Speaker 1: to like conversations people were having elsewhere and just kind
Speaker 1: of information that I could pick up to be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is going to be like an incredibly tight vote.
Speaker 1: But it would have been really easy to do what
Speaker 1: people do with like Trump and what people did with
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, where you're like, well, everyone in my timeline
Speaker 1: says this, so this must be the predominant opinion. And
Speaker 1: Musk is doing like the most concentrated version of that
Speaker 1: on himself, where he's like hosting these polls which are
Speaker 1: deeply unscientific and very easy to manipulate the bots and
Speaker 1: being like, look, twenty million people voted the voice of
Speaker 1: the people. You know, like, no Elon, You've you've created
Speaker 1: You've created a little machine that's entire purpose is to
Speaker 1: skew your view of reality. Um, this is going to
Speaker 1: have very disastrous consequences, not just on your mental health,
Speaker 1: but on your ability to engage with the world, because
Speaker 1: being able to like understand what's actually happening and how
Speaker 1: people actually feel outside of the weird bubble of your
Speaker 1: online friends is crucial for not going insane. That's such
Speaker 1: a good point. And speaking of going insane, you know,
Speaker 1: we started our conversation talking about that fucking wild ass
Speaker 1: picture that Elon Musk posted, you know, that toy guns
Speaker 1: and the four diet cokes decaffeinated diet Coke. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna decaffeinated, which is hard to find. That's a that's
Speaker 1: a rare, rare drink. First, baby, shit, the cut next
Speaker 1: to my bed, there's two real guns and like tin
Speaker 1: more Z is then there, so like, fuck you, Ellen,
Speaker 1: you're stealing, Like that's cultural appropriation, Robert, is it caffeinated
Speaker 1: decaffeinated Zbia, This is very it's a mix I like
Speaker 1: the decaffeinated cola Zeba actually, and I do drink that.
Speaker 1: The coal is good, but it's a little bit too acidic.
Speaker 1: So the decaffeinated Zevia cola is one of my fades.
Speaker 1: Robert loves Zevia. I've never had it. Oh, it's it's
Speaker 1: the best. I recommend picking up a couple of guns,
Speaker 1: buying six to eight zva is, keeping them by your
Speaker 1: bedside table a good time, and like a really weird
Speaker 1: ominous glass water bottle. Yeah, and like a really really
Speaker 1: really thick like lamp fixture. I don't know what's happening there,
Speaker 1: but the decaffe neated diet coke is very upsetting. It
Speaker 1: was a lot, And I guess one of the questions
Speaker 1: I have for the both of you is there's a
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know how to how to put it,
Speaker 1: but a kind of like ship post Equality to Elon
Speaker 1: Moss to Eat to Kanye West, where they are so
Speaker 1: ridiculous that it's hard to take them seriously. And at
Speaker 1: times I wonder like like is this meant to be
Speaker 1: a joke or is it serious? Is do you think
Speaker 1: that's an intentional tactic to kind of blur the lines
Speaker 1: of I'm just sucking around and kidding or I'm this
Speaker 1: is real and I'm serious, Like, is that is that
Speaker 1: part of how they are moving intentionally? Do you think? Yes? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I agree, Yeah, I mean I think that well.
Speaker 1: I think that there's a degree of intention to manipulate
Speaker 1: the information ecosystem by taking personal control of major agents
Speaker 1: of it, right, And I think it's less a matter
Speaker 1: of like having total control and more a matter of
Speaker 1: being able to kind of subtly push things. That's how
Speaker 1: a guy like Bezos, who is more in control of himself,
Speaker 1: uses it. I think it would be a mistake too.
Speaker 1: I think it would be a mistake to credit Ellon
Speaker 1: with having too clear of a plan here. I just
Speaker 1: don't see evidence of that this all. Maybe there will,
Speaker 1: maybe he's he's playing five d hs, but I kind
Speaker 1: of think this is mourning sample of him having been
Speaker 1: manipulated and broken by social media to a point of
Speaker 1: kind of derangement than it is an example of him
Speaker 1: having some sort of cunning plot to manipult. Now. I
Speaker 1: do think some of the people who backed him in
Speaker 1: this purchase, like the Saudis, certainly had those kind of goals,
Speaker 1: But I don't know that. I think Elon did. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the big similarities that I see to all
Speaker 1: of these figures from Elon Kanye is this kind of
Speaker 1: CULTI quality that's around them. I read your substat piece
Speaker 1: about the cultiness of tech billionaires, which was brilliant, and
Speaker 1: how they sort of all benefit from this kind of
Speaker 1: myth like they are seeing something, they are onto something
Speaker 1: that other people just cannot see. Why do you think
Speaker 1: that we like, why are we seeing this rise of
Speaker 1: the kind of CULTI leader type and it's just gonna
Speaker 1: be Do you think we're going to see more of
Speaker 1: this going forward? Yeah? I mean I think we're only
Speaker 1: number one. I think you always see people become more
Speaker 1: vulnerable to cult leaders in times like this, when there's
Speaker 1: great instability and change is happening rapidly and it's it's
Speaker 1: really difficult for people to get a kind of handle
Speaker 1: on reality and to feel like they're in a stable position.
Speaker 1: And I think the kind of cult leaders who are
Speaker 1: most effective in that period are not like the ones
Speaker 1: who are like Keith Ranieri, where they're trying to keep
Speaker 1: a sex harem around them. It's the people who are
Speaker 1: trying to get a large chunk of the population to
Speaker 1: buy in with them in an alternate vision of reality.
Speaker 1: That's what Trump has always done, and he's been very
Speaker 1: good at it. Uh. And I think those were not
Speaker 1: yet past the era of those monsters. And we may not,
Speaker 1: like we who are around right now, may not live
Speaker 1: to see the other side of it. This is not
Speaker 1: a new thing in in history, you know, in during
Speaker 1: kind of the late Classical period or the Lake Grecian
Speaker 1: Classical period, when you had like Athens, the Athenian state
Speaker 1: collapse and you had all of these different kind of like, uh,
Speaker 1: invasions and wars and stuff kind of destroying this this
Speaker 1: the civilization that the Greeks had built, or at least
Speaker 1: its dominance over that part of the world. Um, you
Speaker 1: had writers noting like at the time that these these
Speaker 1: demagogues had become increasingly popular, these guys going in front
Speaker 1: of these societies that had been quasi democratic and being like, look,
Speaker 1: just hand over power to me. You know, I've got
Speaker 1: this vision of the way we can fix things, and
Speaker 1: and getting people to buy in on that vision has
Speaker 1: always been like the tool of a demagogue. There's not
Speaker 1: a big difference between demagogue and a cult leader. And
Speaker 1: I think We're in a similar position, right whereas things
Speaker 1: increasingly fall apart, more and more people are going to
Speaker 1: be vulnerable to someone who is willing, who is able
Speaker 1: to wrap them up in a vision of the world
Speaker 1: that that may not be accurate, but is more comforting
Speaker 1: than reality. And if enough people agree to to kind
Speaker 1: of make a place for that in their own heart,
Speaker 1: then you can do some pretty impressive things as a
Speaker 1: cult leader. So yeah, I don't think we're past that
Speaker 1: that world at all. Yeah, it's I mean, like I saw,
Speaker 1: I was like getting very frustrated at a pretty clear
Speaker 1: example of what you're talking about with regards to Musk.
Speaker 1: Where Musk was it's almost like a Q and Nanni
Speaker 1: vibe where he was getting and also taking a lot
Speaker 1: of credit for combating child sexual abuse material from Twitter
Speaker 1: despite like not like like that was just like a
Speaker 1: thing that propped up like, oh, thank you for taking
Speaker 1: action to combat this, and it's just like not a
Speaker 1: thing that is happening. He fired the team that's in
Speaker 1: charge of combating child sexual abuse material, like there's not
Speaker 1: really evidence and he's done anything that actually meaningfully made
Speaker 1: a difference with it. But in taking over, there's just
Speaker 1: this alternate reality popping up that he's this big crusader
Speaker 1: for protecting children online, which it's just not true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean we could argue he made it less safe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he made it less well. Twitter has purged its childlike
Speaker 1: safety team, like the people whose job it is to
Speaker 1: make sure that there's not content on there that's endangering children. Like,
Speaker 1: there's like one of them left employed basically for all
Speaker 1: of Asia. Like, so he's objectively made it less safe,
Speaker 1: but you know that who cares. It'll be fine. Thankfully
Speaker 1: we've got Apple sailing and to rescue us all here,
Speaker 1: I guess. But it does seem like the same pattern
Speaker 1: Bridgets pointed out several times, where it's like, let's attack
Speaker 1: a brand. That's something that happens so often, and I think,
Speaker 1: like it's I think this is such a such a
Speaker 1: weird point. But I do think it's one of the
Speaker 1: things that I think extremists who coordinate online are really
Speaker 1: good at, is coordinating folks to attack a brand or
Speaker 1: a corporation, and corporation is not really necessarily knowing how
Speaker 1: to deal with it. It's like, oh no, we're being
Speaker 1: you know, like they're not able to say, like, oh
Speaker 1: this is a manufactured outrage campaign and we should encount
Speaker 1: own to it or whatever. I think that folks coordinating
Speaker 1: online are uniquely good at that kind of pressure, and
Speaker 1: brands and corporations aren't necessarily good at with standing it
Speaker 1: or pushing back against it. I guess I should say, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you make of all the like handwringing that
Speaker 1: Musk does about like free speech on Twitter? And then
Speaker 1: you know, on the one hand, being like, we need
Speaker 1: to protect free speech or we'll fall into tyranny. These
Speaker 1: anti fascist researchers are all banned, Like, what do you
Speaker 1: make of that? Well, I mean, he's he's It's what
Speaker 1: I was saying earlier. He exists entirely within this bubble,
Speaker 1: and it's a bubble made up of praise from strangers,
Speaker 1: which is why, like it kind of shows you. I
Speaker 1: don't know anything about Musk's present mental health state, but
Speaker 1: I wonder about it because it definitely seems like there's
Speaker 1: something in him that needs the approval of cat tured
Speaker 1: uh Like, which is a prominent far right Twitter account,
Speaker 1: like all these weirdos he's and he's always been sympathetic
Speaker 1: to the right, you know, I just look at who
Speaker 1: he donated to the most. You know, I'm not surprised
Speaker 1: by that, but I think the way in which social
Speaker 1: media works means that a lot of people, if you
Speaker 1: aren't careful, you'll get drawn further and further and further
Speaker 1: into webs of people who are kind of increasingly extreme
Speaker 1: in their opinions. And with Musk, the way it's happening
Speaker 1: is those people are making a concerted effort to be
Speaker 1: really nice to him. So while everybody else's is banging
Speaker 1: on him and making fun of him for being an idiot, Uh,
Speaker 1: these folks are calling him a genius in the future
Speaker 1: of the world, and he's he's deeply vulnerable to praise
Speaker 1: like all narcissists. So I think that's just what's happening
Speaker 1: is these are the people who are being nice to him,
Speaker 1: and he's kind of taking on their view of what's
Speaker 1: happening on Twitter, even though it does not correspond to
Speaker 1: reality in any measurable way. Like what do you think
Speaker 1: will happen? Like what do you think is at stake?
Speaker 1: If anti fascist voices, leftist voices, you know, are all
Speaker 1: either suspended from the platform or are just like funk this,
Speaker 1: it's not worth it. I'm leaving like that, Like, what
Speaker 1: do you think happens if that's the case. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a degree to which I'm worried because Twitter was always,
Speaker 1: of all of the different things we've had on social media,
Speaker 1: the very best for spreading left wing views and media.
Speaker 1: That's why all of these weirdo things that crime think
Speaker 1: who just got banned had Twitter platforms. It's worked pretty
Speaker 1: well for the distribution of that kind of stuff, and
Speaker 1: it was a good way for people to make connections
Speaker 1: with each other. Um, there's a reason why so much
Speaker 1: of the uprisings started, you know, with people seeing Twitter ship.
Speaker 1: Not to like say that, oh it started because of Twitter,
Speaker 1: but it started because people encountered the video of George
Speaker 1: Floyd being murdered on fucking Twitter, and people encountered videos
Speaker 1: of like protests and uprisings in their own city and
Speaker 1: then went out into the street and stuff, and that
Speaker 1: the fact that that might go away is concerning. At
Speaker 1: the same time, Twitter was not just a place where
Speaker 1: leftist ideas and like left wing thinkers were able to
Speaker 1: spread stuff. It was a place where the left tour
Speaker 1: itself apart every forty seventy two hours. So the fact
Speaker 1: that it might be like, there's also going to be
Speaker 1: benefits if it collapses. I think more than anything, there
Speaker 1: will be bad things, there will be good things. There's
Speaker 1: stuff that will be calamitous about it, there's stuff that
Speaker 1: will be positive. At the end of the day, this
Speaker 1: was always going to happen some way, maybe not this suddenly,
Speaker 1: but nothing lasts forever. We've had social media sites that
Speaker 1: were huge parts of the Internet fall into disrepair and
Speaker 1: and obscurity before, and it will happen again. It will
Speaker 1: happen to whatever replaces Twitter. You know, it will happen
Speaker 1: to TikTok one day. This is just the thing. The
Speaker 1: thing that the Internet does is the thing that everything does. Right,
Speaker 1: Nothing nothing gold or even crusted in poop, can stay.
Speaker 1: So I I I'm at a certain level. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's I think it's reasonable to be concerned about
Speaker 1: the way this could impact you or your community. And
Speaker 1: I'm not saying people who have those concerns are being unreasonable,
Speaker 1: but personally I'm kind of trying to have like a well,
Speaker 1: this is just the you know, it's the way it goes.
Speaker 1: Twitter was never gonna be around forever, and if this
Speaker 1: is how it dies, this is how it dies, so
Speaker 1: we'll have to figure something else out. Wow, that is
Speaker 1: a surprisingly it's like rosy take from someone who was
Speaker 1: like one of the least optimistic people that I know. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I have been around on the Internet a
Speaker 1: long time, and I am a poster. I am I
Speaker 1: it is woven deep into my blood. But I've posted
Speaker 1: many places, UM, and I will be posting in many
Speaker 1: places in the future, regardless of what happens to posting
Speaker 1: on this particular platform. And I think that's true of
Speaker 1: all the of all the great posters, of the ones
Speaker 1: who are certainly greater than I, people like Drill, you know,
Speaker 1: there they'll find a place. You know. The posters never die,
Speaker 1: they just post in different websites. So one of my
Speaker 1: last questions for you is, I was reading this um
Speaker 1: interview that you did with Box about gamer Gate and
Speaker 1: sort of online it's reamism more broadly, and on this show,
Speaker 1: we really argue that there is a direct line between
Speaker 1: online movements that are based in harassing marginalized people. We
Speaker 1: often start those conversations with gamer Gate, but we also
Speaker 1: talked about instances that predate and led the gamer Gate.
Speaker 1: I argue that there's a direct line between those movements
Speaker 1: and the rise of extremist movements today. Um, if people
Speaker 1: had taken those movements more seriously, or people with power
Speaker 1: had like done something to stop them, perhaps things would
Speaker 1: be different. I wonder do you see those things as
Speaker 1: linked as well? Yeah, I I guess so. My own
Speaker 1: thinking on the matter is kind of muddled, but but
Speaker 1: probably yeah, probably, Yeah, I like it. No, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's I see what you mean. It's it's a that
Speaker 1: is my through line that I am always like beating
Speaker 1: that drum. You know, all the people that I've talked
Speaker 1: to who were targets of that kind of harassment that
Speaker 1: predated gamer Gate, they all said the same thing, like,
Speaker 1: I don't think that if somebody would have done something
Speaker 1: about it, then that like we could say Trump wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been elected, or that we could say the insurrection
Speaker 1: would have happened. They don't believe that, but they do
Speaker 1: have this question of like, could something have been different?
Speaker 1: Could extremists would they have less of a hold on
Speaker 1: our democracy and our discourse? Would they be less legitimized,
Speaker 1: would media no to not spend a couple of cycles
Speaker 1: talking about how dapper they are or whatever? And amplifying
Speaker 1: their messages in these ways, would we have been primed
Speaker 1: to handle it differently? And so it's not. It's never
Speaker 1: like a clear line of like, oh, it would never
Speaker 1: have happened. It's more of a like, what things have
Speaker 1: been a little bit different? Yeah, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: if the entirety of media were not driven by what
Speaker 1: gets the most clips or what gets the most clicks
Speaker 1: and thus, like, if that were not the primary thing
Speaker 1: that determined whether or not journalism is profitable, we would
Speaker 1: be in a better place. And if if that were
Speaker 1: not the entire thing determined what made journalism profitable, stuff
Speaker 1: like gamer Gate wouldn't have taken off right um if
Speaker 1: it were, because I think one of the things I've
Speaker 1: come to believe there was this period of time after
Speaker 1: gamer Gate where I was like, if only they had
Speaker 1: paid attention to us when we were trying to warn
Speaker 1: them about what these people are like, about the fact
Speaker 1: that none of them are telling the truth, that they're
Speaker 1: all lying to try and push an agenda that you
Speaker 1: can't take them seriously or literally in any way, shape
Speaker 1: or form. You have to take them seriously, but you
Speaker 1: can't assume that they're honest. You can't. You can't engage
Speaker 1: with them, You can't debate them, because they're liars and
Speaker 1: they're they're entirely attempting to just sort of like get
Speaker 1: clout by, you know, bringing their ship up. Like you
Speaker 1: cannot engaging with them in any way other than two
Speaker 1: like attack them is a waste of time and deeply
Speaker 1: damaging the society. There was a time when I believed
Speaker 1: we could have convinced, like, if we could have convinced
Speaker 1: the fucking Jake Tappers of the world of that that, um,
Speaker 1: we might have avoided a lot of terror. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's possible for them to have avoided it, because
Speaker 1: engaging with those people and highlighting them and putting them
Speaker 1: up in the center of your shows is worth too
Speaker 1: much money because it trends, because that's like that. So
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I think that the
Speaker 1: nature of how what makes media profitable in the twenty
Speaker 1: first century meant we were always doomed to this. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's the way the internet works. Inherently the
Speaker 1: internet makes this stuff easier. But at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, the reason why these people were able to
Speaker 1: break containment from the dark corners of the Internet where
Speaker 1: they were harassing individual people to the point where they
Speaker 1: are threatening society on a broader level. Is because it's
Speaker 1: really profitable to hold these weirdos up in front of
Speaker 1: the mainstream and say, look at this, Look at this,
Speaker 1: look at this. Do you see that as a vibe
Speaker 1: that will ever be rid of unless we completely radically
Speaker 1: change the way that our media functions in the United Yeah,
Speaker 1: So having these people in our society in anywhere near
Speaker 1: prominence is not sustainable. Eventually, the eventually something will happen,
Speaker 1: something violent, something disastrous. Uh, and and then they'll either
Speaker 1: all die or be forced back underground. This has happened
Speaker 1: a few times in history before. The question is how
Speaker 1: many of us wind up going down out with them? Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's that optimism that I'm used to from you, Robert.
Speaker 1: That's so funny that you say that about Robert, because
Speaker 1: I find him to be one of the most like hope.
Speaker 1: He always finds hope in things, there's all I mean.
Speaker 1: I I firmly believe there's always something to be hopeful about,
Speaker 1: even if everything feels like shit. Yeah, I mean, like
Speaker 1: that's that's that's like one of the things that we've
Speaker 1: imbedded into all of our shows on cools and media,
Speaker 1: is that there's always hope in figuring out and optimistic
Speaker 1: approach to the to the healthscape we currently are living through. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: your shows have titles like it could Happen Here that
Speaker 1: like titles that keep me up at night and Internet
Speaker 1: Hate Machine. Hey, that was your idea. You came up
Speaker 1: with that title, Robert, I did come up with that title.
Speaker 1: I think that. I think, Uh, that's a good place
Speaker 1: to end it us, Sophie. Is there anything that I
Speaker 1: missed that I should mention? No, you always crush it.
Speaker 1: You never miss anything. Well, thank you for all your help, Robert.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. It has been
Speaker 1: an honor. Thank you for having me. Where can folks,
Speaker 1: I'm sure that I'm sure anybody listening to this is
Speaker 1: already obsessed with your shows, But where can folks listen
Speaker 1: to your shows? Tell us about the Bastards, etcetera. Well,
Speaker 1: we got Behind the Bastards, which is weekly. We got
Speaker 1: it could Happen here every day. I'm not on it
Speaker 1: every day, but I'm on it a lot. I have
Speaker 1: a book called After the Revolution you can buy at
Speaker 1: any of the places that you can buy books, and
Speaker 1: I also have a sub stack where I write essays
Speaker 1: every week. You can find it at shatter zone dot
Speaker 1: sub stack dot com, shatter zone dot sub stack dot com.
Speaker 1: That's that's my little basically a blog. They call it
Speaker 1: a newsletter whatever you can call it, whatever you want.
Speaker 1: I don't care. And then and then by the this
Speaker 1: is coming out next week. So on the December the eight,
Speaker 1: Robert a Great kill Joy and myself we'll be doing
Speaker 1: a special livestream episode of Behind the Bastards with the
Speaker 1: Q and A. And you can get your tickets that
Speaker 1: moment dot co, slash e TV. Yeah, motherfucker's. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I can't wait for that. I love Margaret, Margaret's the
Speaker 1: best listen to Margaret show Who People who did cool stuff?
Speaker 1: That's my plug. Internet Hate Machine is a production of
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
Speaker 1: check out our website cool zone media dot com, or
Speaker 1: find us on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.