WEBVTT - Why is Kanye West Trying to Bring Milo Back? w/ Robert Evans 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.160 Welcome to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. I'm joined 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:05.680 my producers Sophie, and we are so thrilled to be 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:09.039 joined with the one, the only, Robert Evans behind the 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:12.440 Bastards of Robert. Thank you so much for being here today. Hey, 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:17.360 thanks for having me with all of the stuff happening 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.040 and unfolding right now. You're the person that I was like, Damn, 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.040 I really want to get Robert's take. I truly don't 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.600 know what the fun is going on, Like, how are 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:29.000 you in these in these very weird times? Well, I 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:30.680 don't know. You know, the thing that we're dealing with 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:35.240 right now that's so peculiar is there's these there's these 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:39.000 figures from like the shitty side of the Internet who 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.680 were kind of for years folks who did the same 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:45.800 kind of research I did. We kind of talked about 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.479 them like like radioactive material, Like we were just kind 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.080 of hoping that we could keep them underground and and 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.360 and not get into the groundwater. And then Nick Flintes 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:00.240 wound up hanging out on Kanye's private jet, eating any 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.520 food with him and fucking middle of nowhere Maryland, and uh, 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:06.479 and I guess that ships out of the bag now. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:13.679 First of all, disrespectful to Frederick Maryland. Sorry it looked 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.600 like a terrible town. No, it is, I it is. 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:18.880 You know, that's sort of a good place to start. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:20.959 So I have to say I'm not I was not 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.840 terribly familiar with Nick Fuentez, and I saw a lot 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.480 of reporting saying calling him a quote like right wing extremist. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.360 But that almost doesn't seem totally accurate to me. Can 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.039 can you tell me a bit about his ideology? Yeah, 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:36.000 it's frustrating to me that he's just being called a 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:38.640 right wing extremist by people like I think Molly Haberman 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.399 was the person who wrote that article. But because that's 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.920 that's about as accurate as saying that like Pino Sha 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:51.920 had issues with democracy. Nick Flintes is a is a Nazi, 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:54.360 um And I when I say that, I don't mean 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.400 it kind of people use that sometimes as a as 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:59.560 a pejorative these days. I mean that in the very 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.600 literal senses. And he really likes Adolf Hitler, who believes 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.000 in the tenants of national socialism. He's a little bit 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:09.080 different from a mainstream Nazi, and that he's like Catholic fascist, 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.600 but he denies the Holocaust. Um. He has these, you know, 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.239 these kind of coy little ways of doing it where 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.600 he'll talk about like cookies and baking cookies and ovens 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:20.919 to try to make the point that six million people 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:23.520 couldn't have been killed. Like it's it's all really gross 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:27.560 and kind of tweet and um. And that's Nick. And 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.120 I guess that there's a couple of things about him 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.880 kind of bubbling up into the mainstream that are so weird. 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:35.480 One of them is just that he's much more extreme 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:37.840 than any of these all right figures. You know, these guys, 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.600 even like Milo, who's also involved in the whole Kanye thing, 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:45.120 they would always keep just enough plausible deniability about the 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:48.160 anti semitism and about the outright Nazi stuff that they 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:50.079 could be like, ah, the Left, look at them, they're 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.720 just trying to cancel me. They call everybody a nazi. Nick, 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.360 there's you can find him like videos of him just 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.120 saying like, yeah, we can't have a democracy because people 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.280 don't like the things that we like, so we have 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.680 to take over the government, instituted dictatorship and forced them 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.720 to believe the things we want them to believe. He's 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:11.560 a The other thing about Nick that it makes it 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:14.560 kind of peculiar that he's reaching into the mainstream is 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:18.320 that he's he's too gross for it. Nick is a 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:22.440 guy who will do stuff like burst into his like 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:24.960 close because he has kind of a little cult following 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.960 of young men. He'll do stuff like, you know, while 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.639 traveling with them, run a black light over their room 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.079 to see if they've been masturbating. Uh. He says that 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:36.640 having sex with women is the gayest thing that you 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:42.720 can do. He's probably he's probably having Yeah, there's a lot. 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.080 He lives at his mom's basement. He's such a he's 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:49.280 a weird little grimmlin man. He's also a very talented 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.720 propagandist and and pretty good at running a room. There 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:54.640 was a moment a couple of years ago that the 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.400 Knowledge Fight Guys covered where Alex Jones was like headlining 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:03.120 this rally d C this like big night of speeches. Now, 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:05.920 Alex is an alcoholic, and he got way too drunk 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.440 to properly m c the event and was kind of 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.040 just like flopping all over the place, and Nick took over, 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.640 uh and and and managed it pretty competently. You know. Again, 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.040 it was a room full of gropers, which are kind 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.039 of what you know, you call his followers called themselves 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:24.320 and other similar kind of fascist weirdos. But he's a 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:29.280 he's a talented showman, and he's also I think he's 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:34.320 a little too far off the map to actually go 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:36.680 mainstream and the way that he wants. That's clearly why 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.080 he's hanging out around Kanye, you can notice. And so 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.720 we're recording this the day after Kanya was just on 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.520 a guy named Tim Pools livestream show, which is a 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:50.080 fairly popular livestream YouTube news program. He has like ten 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:54.040 million followers or some ship, so there's subscribers, so he's 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.200 he's very popular. Tim was really looking forward to having 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:02.040 Flints and Napolis and uh and and Kanye on, because 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.360 obviously Kanye is huge. But Kanye walks off the set 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.360 fifteen minutes in over being very very lightly pushed back 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:13.320 on about anti Semitism, like so mild. It's very mild. 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.800 And it's interesting to watch what these because both of 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.960 these guys Eonopolis is his own kind of grifter, and 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.680 I kind of suspect that he and Fuintes are behind 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:27.000 the scenes competing rather viciously to try and control the 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.440 direction Kanye goes well as soon as Kanye walks off, 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:35.720 Melo Eleonopolis gets up and walks out after him. I'm 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.240 not even mad that you mispronounced his name, like, I'm 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.400 okay with it. There's no way to pronounce it right, 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:49.320 I mean it's Milo. I'm into the Melo pronunciation, to 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:54.920 be honest, I don't agree with you. But he he 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:58.279 gets up and he immediately goes out after Kanye UM, 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:00.840 And I think it's because Milos kind of going after 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.680 this whole. He wants to he's kissing ass. He just 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:05.440 he wants to be close to Kanye. He wants to 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.279 get all as much of that fucking money as he 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.200 possibly can, and that means be in the dude's body. Man. 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.200 You know, Kanye gets upset, you roll out there and 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.800 you try to make sure he's okay. Nick stays seated 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.359 and stays on message and keeps trying to talk about 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:22.279 the Jews because Nick sees Nick has a desire to 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:25.400 kind of keep steering Kanye in this direction. But Nick's 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.840 primary purpose up there is to push the things that 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.599 Nick believes, and he sees Kanye as a way to 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.320 Um to magnify that ship. And you can see it 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.640 very clearly in that clip the different ways in which 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.719 they're both thinking about him in this opportunity. So yeah, 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.720 that's that's what I got right now. Something that you 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.680 tweeted that I thought was really interesting was this idea 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.359 that and I'm not excusing any of Kanye West's bullfit. 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:54.159 It's anti Semitic and anti black and misogynists. Yeah, mental 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:55.800 health is not an excuse for any of those things. 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.560 But do you sort of see any like part of 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.640 me wonder is this to people kind of trying to 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.320 I don't want to use word take advantage of, but 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.159 steer someone who is clearly having some kind of like 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.560 mental health issue to use him for their own benefit. 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.120 All Yeah, yeah, I mean Kanye number one, we're not 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.680 like theorizing about a guy's mental health. Kanye has been institutionalized. 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.760 You know, he has manic cycles, He's had psychotic breaks. 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:27.240 This is something that Kim Kardashians talked about. And if 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.239 you just kind of look at the way he's talking 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:34.360 in that video, this is not like I think he's 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.760 in the middle of a psychotic break. And I think 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:39.400 that Nick and I think that Milo are both trying 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.320 to kind of push him in directions that are more 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.040 beneficial to them because they see him as easy to manipulate. 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.720 Right now, and again, as you said, this doesn't mean 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.840 like he's not racist because and then says to mean 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.040 that the racism isn't real because lots of people have 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.640 psychotic breaks and don't hang out with Milianopolis, and Nick 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.400 Flint does. The fact that he is racist, the fact 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:04.280 that he's become convinced, that he has convinced himself of 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.320 all of these anti Semitic conspiracy theories, all of that 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.800 is the reason why he's in this position. But I 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:13.880 also think he's not really in his right mind now, 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:15.840 and I part of that is because if he was, 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.280 if he was coldly and smoothly operating for the position 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.280 of trying to push anti Semitic politics because he was 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.920 just a racist, this is not how you do it 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.240 as Kanye West. This is not the way. This is 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:32.080 too uncontrolled to open and out there. He's alienating people 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.720 too quickly, there's no plausible deniability, and he's not actually 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.280 making a good case. He's getting like too agitated and angry. 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.920 Like hopping off of the tim pool thing is not 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.520 an action of a guy who's completely in control It's 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.600 an action of a guy who's kind of lost anyone 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.480 who will try to stop him from following his like 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:55.360 momentary whims and impulses, which is what I think we're 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.000 seeing in his behavior. So I don't think that you're 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.280 trying to mitigate his comicity in this by saying like, oh, 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:04.880 these are not the actions of a guy who's capable 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:07.679 of thinking through everything that he's doing right now either. 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:10.320 So what do you make of the fact that these 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.079 figures like Kanyo Best at own point was like a 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.120 largely a cultural figure. What do you make of the 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:17.880 fact that these extremist types are now powering around with 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.600 these cultural figures, Like does that? Does that mean anything? 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.280 Like why do you think that we're seeing that? I 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:28.240 mean we're seeing that because Kanye is Kanye has always 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:33.600 been a guy who was very much kind of enthralled 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.120 of his of his worst impulses. This is not the 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.760 first time we've seen him go in that direction. So 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:41.559 one of the things that I think we're seeing with 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.480 Kanye is this is a guy who's very prominent and 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.600 very wealthy and not used to being told no. Has 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.719 completely alighted the circle of people who might have moderated 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.560 his behavior at points in the past, and I think 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:58.920 that made him really vulnerable. And I think it's kind 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.800 of like an immune system breaking down, and there were 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.080 just these holes in the immune system. And at some 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:08.280 point Milo got close to him. And Milo is a 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:13.120 pretty savvy when it comes to manipulating individual people. This 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:14.920 guy's history, by the way, I mean, there's no way 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:19.160 that sends well for Kanye Unopolis. Like one of the 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.400 things he likes to do most is blackmail people who 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.760 will record them without them being aware. He's the guy 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.520 who destroyed Richard Spencer by releasing that recording of Spencer 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.000 at that that club in Dallas. He's that kind of dude, 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.800 and I'm sure he's doing that with Kanye, but he's 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.920 also I think trying to wrap himself around the guy, 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:41.400 make him into himself indispensable, be like the dude's emotional 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.600 support network, because I think he sees he's a predator. 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:46.720 He sees very in a very savvy way. Oh, this 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.520 guy's just gotten rid of all of the people who 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:52.000 were doing that for him and is alone and there's 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:54.240 a place for me. I think Nick got into it 0:10:54.280 --> 0:11:00.320 from a different position. Wentes is a an opportunist as well, 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.080 but he's an opportunist for his message and his message 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.240 Like number one, I think he's always liked Kanye as 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.480 a as a performer. There's evidence of that. He's dressed 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.839 as a few times. So you've got both this kind 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:16.440 of this weird Nazi kid has always idolized Kanye and 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.120 his ability to get attention, and now is able to 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.080 use Kanye's ability to get attention to push this Nazi 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:25.000 message he's been trying to push for years. Uh So 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.280 it makes sense to me that it's happening. I don't 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.280 know that this is evidence of a broader trend in 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.440 the culture other than that because of the Internet, a 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.400 lot of famous people have been exposed to anti Semitic 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:40.440 and other sort of fringe fascist conspiracy theories just like 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.520 regular people have. And so you are seeing like there, 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.319 but these aren't the only cases of this. You are 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.480 seeing more of these people who are culturally prominent like 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:52.360 come out and express their belief in these very shady conspiracies. 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:57.840 Kanye is just again kind of lacks the self control 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.559 or the ability to moderate himself, which is why he's 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:03.679 gone so much further. Yeah, and let's talk a bit 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.840 about Milo. We we covered Milo his coordinated rasmic campaign 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.960 against actor Leslie Jones, and that episode ends with like, oh, 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.280 Milo is broke. You know, he got kicked off of Twitter, 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.839 he felt from grace, you know, lost his lost his 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:19.160 book deal, not speaking at Seapack. I think I saw 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.200 him like on YouTube selling like religious junk of some 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.760 kind in turning for Marjorie Taylor Green. Do you think 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:30.360 that this is like, is this Milo's comeback attaching himself 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.240 to Kanye Do you think that it's like, this is 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.160 my attempt to get back in the line, might build 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.920 bad platform back and that kind of thing. I actually 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.920 don't think he that's his plan in that way. I 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.920 think Milo he's spent a lot of time trying to 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.160 get back in the limelight. He's he's he's pushed a 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.360 lot in order to like just kind of keep his 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.040 name out there in any way, shape or form. But 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:57.960 I also think he's coming to a point where he's 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.320 had a number of cycles of being in the news 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.000 and being out of the news, and I think what 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.320 he cares about more than anything is not being poor. 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:10.680 I think Kanye is very wealthy still and also easy 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:14.000 to manipulate, right now, and I think Milo sees that 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.520 if he stays near him and makes himself indispensable, there's 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:18.880 a way that some of that money is going to 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:20.760 fall off, and maybe it will be enough that he 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:23.960 doesn't have to be as much of a shameless, grifting 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.520 piece of ship as he has been. Uh, he can 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.360 he can actually like live the life that this was. 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.640 He's always been in it for the money, right, Nick 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:37.040 believes something. It's horrible, but Nick is a believer. Milo 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.959 has always been a grifter, and I think he sees 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.360 this as his best shot at getting a big pay 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.840 day and probably writing a book about it at some point. Right, Like, again, 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.960 he's planning to betray Kanye. Not that I care about 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.320 Kanye getting betrayed, but that is what he's planning to do. Yeah, 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.920 And I wonder, like I remember a few weeks ago 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.600 when Kanye announced he was buying parlor, and I was 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:00.760 sad to see that it took a little bit of 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.080 time for that story to be reported as like he's 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.959 been buddying up with Candice Owen. Candice Owen's husband owns parlor. 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.160 Now he's buying parlor. It's not a very robust platform, 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.680 Like I do I do think that, like it's like 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:15.719 that axiom a fool in his money, you know. I 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:17.840 just like, this is a wealthy person who is clearly 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:23.280 having some issues and also espousing the kind of fucked 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.520 up ideology that speaks to these people, and so they're 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.280 all just sort of like rushing some of them are 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.360 just sort of rushing into cash in on it. I think. Yeah. 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:33.200 I mean, if you followed Kanye's career at all, like 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:35.320 up until now, I think had a lot of the 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:40.560 same people around him and add some kind of a 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.680 loyal support system, and now he just has a bunch 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:49.280 of weird nazi grifters around him and they're taking advantage 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:53.120 of the fact that he's alone. Yeah. Yeah, I mean 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:58.120 that's I think pretty obvious. And I again, like none 0:14:58.120 --> 0:14:59.720 of this is to say that like, oh we should 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:03.600 feel sorry for Kanye. No, literally, literally, no one who 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.240 has struggled with mental health has ever had more resources 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.680 available to them. And I know just mean that the 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.120 money sense, Like whatever you want to say about Kim Kardashian, 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.880 she really cared about him and tried like did the 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:18.520 deeply embarrassing and difficult thing, which is like publicly make 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:23.720 her husband's mental health something of like popular conversation in 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.200 order to like try and get him some kind of help. 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.680 And you know, none of this. You know, he hasn't 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.440 taken any of the opportunities he's had to like deal 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:35.720 with this ship. So I'm not sympathetic to him, but 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:37.880 I do think it's important to talk to like talk 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.200 about this as what it is, rather than pretend like, oh, 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.680 Kanye is part of some scheme. Uh, Kanye is not 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.040 thinking any of this through. He's not really able to 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.280 at the moment. Yeah, I think you're exactly right, And 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.680 I think it's one of the reasons why conversations about 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:57.040 Kanye can be so difficult, because it's easy for folks 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.400 to hear like, oh, I'm excuse. I'm not holding him 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.920 accountable for his behavior, for his ideology, for the things 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.760 that he's saying. I think like nobody is saying that 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:08.520 he is not responsible for the ship that he's saying 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:14.120 and doing. But also opportunists and grifters are definitely taking 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.600 advantage of him and definitely trying to steer him in 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.080 a direction that will be youthful for them in some capacity. 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.760 So it's like and even talking about his anti Semitism. 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:24.400 I think that, like we have so far Togo and 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:28.440 conversations about black anti semitism, it's really like have a 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.720 conversation about it. I think that with Kanye it's so 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.560 clear that we're not there yet, Like we're not really 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.200 having the conversation. Yeah, I mean, and that's that parts 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.920 a little bit above my pay grade, But um, I 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.320 think the conversation of like how this he got exposed 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:48.400 to this stuff that's really worth having. I'm personally very 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.080 curious about like how long this has been going on. 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:52.960 As far as I'm aware, there's not really signs and 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.800 his music where he's being like covertly anti semitic. I 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.440 don't think he was accused of that, So my my 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.000 guess is that this is a thing that happened due 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:05.320 to his increasing isolation and you know, increased amount of 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.640 time on the internet. But I am curious, like where 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.160 they're friends of his at one point sending him videos 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:12.840 who are just a little bit less far down the 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.720 rabbit hole. Like I do want to know and think 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.560 it's a valuable question, like what is the path that 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.399 leads this guy to being willing to sit in a 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:24.200 room with Nick Flintes and not like getting the funk 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.480 up when Nick starts talking, right, I think that is 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.119 a worthy question. I just don't actually know the answer 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:39.160 to that right now. Yeah, same, you know, speaking about 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:43.400 that dinner that Nick and Kanye had with Trump, I've 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:45.800 seen a lot of handrying about why folks in the 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:48.679 GOP aren't standing up to denounce the fact that Trump 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.119 had dinner with Flintes and Kanye West. Why do you 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:55.040 think we're seeing that because Nick number one, the Republican 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:59.280 Party is very much like tied to the Israeli government. 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.920 They are a major funder and those like a pack 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:06.199 and has proven willing to like look askance at some 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.240 people who are just on the edge with their anti Semitism. 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.760 Nick is not Nick is Nick is outright is a 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.920 is a hitlerist. So Number one, he's he's just too 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.359 far for it. And it's one of those things I 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.040 don't believe. So this is a topic of debate, like 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.560 did Trump know who Fuintes was ahead of time? You know, 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.439 does he secretly like was he hoping this would go? Like? 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.080 I don't actually think so. I'm sure that someone had 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.480 talked to Trump a couple of times about Fuintes. I 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.440 suspect maybe he even watched a clip of the kid 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.000 talking about Trump when like an aid put it in 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.600 front of his face. But but Nick does not. Nick 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.960 did not up until recently, exist on like the normal Internet. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:48.000 He was not like a dude a mainstream person would encounter. 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.960 And Trump is not going to be just like Trump 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.320 doesn't go find this ship on his own. People put 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.320 stuff in front of his face. And I I one thing, 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:58.120 I'm certain whether or not he had heard of Nick 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.520 before this. I don't believe that when he Kanye walked 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.840 in with Flintest behind him, Donald Trump said, oh, that's 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.000 Nick Flintes. I simply do not believe that. And I 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.159 don't believe that like Nick started in on t and 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.159 from the what we have of the conversation, it doesn't 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.960 sound like Flintes started in with a bunch of anti 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.159 Semitic conspiracies. He started in praising Trump, and so Trump 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:23.399 was like, I really like this kid, And that's the 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:27.639 way Trump works, right. Uh. Trump also is all about 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.560 self protection and self preservation. So I'm not surprised that, 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:32.840 Like and I suspect the way it went is that, 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:36.160 like they had this conversation, he talks with Kanye, He's like, boy, 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:37.960 I like this kid who's saying nice things about me, 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:39.520 And as soon as they leave, an aid walks up 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.439 and says, that's motherfucking Nazi boss, Like we like and 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:44.040 that that guy, that guy is a little bit like, 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.240 we don't want to be associated with that dude. And 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:48.959 Trump was like, oh, alright, fuck uh, And then he 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.080 issued that weird statement where he was like, Kanye didn't 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.480 say anything get racist. Also, I don't know Nick Flintes, Yeah, 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.280 normal statement to put out after you've just had a 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.760 nice dinner. Like nothing anti semitical was discussed. We're all 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.800 good there. I just don't understand because Marl lag is 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.840 supposed to be praised as this super secure place. Not 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.879 one motherfucker could say this is who that is before 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.800 he got in the room. Well, I mean that doesn't 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.560 mean it's not secure. Nick doesn't have any history of 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:22.920 like violence, you know, the secret services job, And nobody's 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.600 gonna say going to tell Donald who he's having a 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.159 dinner with. No, I mean that that makes sense to 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.399 me though, Like he is. Donald is also kind of 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.760 like Trump, He's increasingly pushed away a lot of the 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.360 people who used to be at his back as he's 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:44.000 gotten weirder too. So I'm not surprised by that. Um. Yeah, 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.920 I'm not really surprised by anything that happened in that meeting. 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.520 I just I think it's less a sign that like, uh, 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.040 Trump is openly embracing the Nazis in his missed and 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:56.840 more a sign of like, yeah, when you have like 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.359 no control over who you'll hang out with other than 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:01.560 that they say ice things about you, you're gonna wind 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.360 up talking, sitting down and eating with some Nazis. Yeah, 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:08.000 and Nazi your two's gonna slip in. Yeah. So speaking 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.680 of someone who is kind of trumpy or I see 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:12.560 as kind of trumpy, let's talk a little bit about 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:16.679 Elon Musk. You know, Yeah, we've got Elon Musk buying Twitter, 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.480 you know, Trump pastors social Do you see this as 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.720 extremists sort of building their own media ecosystems? And how 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:26.200 worried should we be about this in terms of like 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:32.360 allowing kind of I don't know, extremist ideology, and even 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.240 more than that, just sort of culti vibes, which I 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:36.600 know that you've written a lot about. I want to 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.399 talk about that as well. Do you see these bids 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:42.879 for buying their own platforms as a problem. Yeah, I 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:44.760 mean it's a huge problem. I do think one of 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:48.000 the things I find interesting about Elon because look, we 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:50.320 can all like talk about o Elon was always a grifter, 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:52.919 and Elon has always been There's elements of that throughout 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:55.679 his history. Certainly, he hasn't always been like this, and 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:57.399 I don't think it's that he was just like keeping 0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.680 it on check and hiding his power level until he 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:03.760 could reveal his true beliefs. I think Twitter has been deeply, 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.879 deeply toxic for his brain. It is for everybody, but 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:10.040 I think it's damaged him. He's he's got main character 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.359 syndrome more than most people, and effectively, by buying this, 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.320 he's turned himself into the everyday main character of Twitter, 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:18.639 which is one of the worst things you can do 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:21.240 for your mental health. And it's the thing that Trump 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:23.440 did to himself. And I think part of why we're 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.600 seeing Ellen get more trumpy is that he's put himself 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:29.240 in the same environment and like a goldfish, his ego 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:33.000 is growing to a to to fit the old container. 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:36.320 I can't this is too early to say. Maybe I'll 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:40.439 get embarrassed by making this statement. But I think maybe 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:43.679 one reason why Trump hasn't come back to Twitter is 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.960 that after going through Twitter withdrawals when he got booted, 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:50.520 maybe Trump realized it was bad for him and doesn't 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:53.240 actually want to go back. I don't think that's a 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:57.040 zero percent chance, because I suspect it was pretty traumatic 0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:59.600 to him. Is like suddenly having that cut off, and 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:01.920 maybe he's like, I don't want to get back into that, 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:04.000 Like I got this truth social thing. When I do 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:05.520 need to get something out, I could get it out, 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:07.680 but it doesn't suck me up like Twitter, like it's 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:09.880 not doesn't hit as hard as that old ship. Right, 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:14.159 he's on that methodon now weeding himself off of it 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:16.400 a little bit. I don't know, maybe not. Maybe he'll 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.720 get back on Twitter tomorrow, but I kind of suspect 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:23.119 that's what's happening. I think with somebody like Elon Musk, 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:25.520 who I honestly i've never met him, but I can 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:28.320 read and see, so I have my own opinions. Do 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:31.720 think that there is something about Twitter that is bad, 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:36.320 especially being surrounded by sycophants, by by yes men and 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.879 fanboys that really has you getting high on your own supply. 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:42.920 And people like you and me, like normal people. Yeah, 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:45.000 Twitter is not good for any of our brains, but 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:47.040 most of us, when we put our phone down, we 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:49.840 have somebody in our life who will call us on 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:52.840 our bullshit, or tell us when we're acting ridiculous, or 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:54.760 tell us when something that we're saying doesn't make any 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.440 sense or is really harmful. And most of us have 0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:01.040 systems in our life for basic accountability, and it seems 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:03.919 like people like Trump and a Musk maybe don't have that. 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:06.480 Maybe they have insullct Like when I read these reports 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:10.440 about how former space X and Tesla staffers had to 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:14.119 spend so much time and energy kind of doing the 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:18.119 window dressing specifically to play Kate Musk and like saying 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:19.800 things that they knew that he would like, you know, 0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:23.040 setting up computers so that they looked like the matrix 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:25.280 was happening on them, so that when Elon Musk was 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:27.400 in the building he would think really cool science ship 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:30.600 was happening, even though that was just a farce. You know. Well, 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.199 I do want to say so that that those recollections 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:36.200 of events come from. I believe it was originally a 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:38.600 tumbler post from someone who was claiming that they worked 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.159 at SpaceX and that this is the way everyone, this 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:43.840 is the way the company worked, that there was like 0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:46.199 a lot of effort that went into kind of constraining 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:48.040 Elon so that he could be used for the thing 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:52.200 he was good at, which is pr without interrupting the workflow. 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:55.760 And it it all seems I want to believe it, 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:58.920 that we don't have any proof that that's true, right right, 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:01.040 this is not no one's that that dude didn't go 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:02.680 to like a jury or individual to go to a 0:25:02.760 --> 0:25:05.120 journalist and like prove that they were there. Other people 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:07.879 weren't interviewed. I have found a couple other accounts of 0:25:07.880 --> 0:25:10.159 people who also claim, and again these are just on 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:13.359 the internet, that they worked at SpaceX and that the 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:17.720 stuff he was saying sound incredible. UM, but there's no 0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:19.960 proof of it at this moment. Now, I I would 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:22.720 love to if if you work for SpaceX, if you 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:25.239 if you worked in the company at this point, if 0:25:25.280 --> 0:25:28.400 you can either confirm or deny that account, please reach 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:31.160 out to us, because I would love to be able 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:35.040 to actually do some reporting on that. Um, because I 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:37.480 I do want to believe it. It sounds right, but 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:40.080 I do want to be clear we don't actually know 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:44.440 whether or not that thing is real totally. I will 0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:49.080 add that in the uh the lawsuit against Tesla, one 0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:51.320 of the allegations made in that lawsuit is that when 0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:55.359 Elon Musk toward the I don't know show rooms, that 0:25:55.480 --> 0:25:57.960 all the employees knew that that meant to have black 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:02.400 and brown like staffers basically hid because Elon must didn't 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:04.320 want to see them. And so like that is a 0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:07.080 much more credible allegation to people are making that in 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:10.800 a court of law, right, Like that's yeah, absolutely, so, yeah, 0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:13.000 you're you're exactly right, Like we don't know if that is, 0:26:13.680 --> 0:26:17.000 you know, a confirmed statement by somebody who actually worked there. 0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:20.080 But I do think like even the Tesla example does 0:26:20.119 --> 0:26:22.639 sort of speak to the idea that Elon Musk is 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:27.440 someone for whom others in his orbit have to expand 0:26:27.520 --> 0:26:31.359 some energy to make happy in certain ways, and that 0:26:31.440 --> 0:26:33.320 like that is an understood thing. If that, if that, 0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:35.480 if those allegations in that law suitor to be believed, 0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:40.639 it does seem to be like that is he shows up. Yeah, yeah, definitely. 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:43.399 Well I think that, you know, I agree with you. 0:26:43.440 --> 0:26:47.800 I think that something I've always dislikeding On Musk, but 0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:50.720 I think that something has happened that has made him 0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:53.560 more trumpy, And I think part of it is probably 0:26:53.920 --> 0:26:57.720 how often he is embedding himself in these Twitter echo 0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:00.199 chambers that just tell him what do you want to 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:03.560 hear and have fanboys and sycophans just being brilliant, brilliant, 0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:06.439 brilliant everything he says, Well, he's he's doing. You know. 0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:09.080 One of the things that one of the delusions that 0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:12.679 Twitter allows us all to feel is the because it 0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:16.040 it can get you, trap you in this kind of loop. 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:19.480 It's not quite an echo chamber, because whatever loop you're in, 0:27:19.600 --> 0:27:22.000 whatever reality tunnel in Twitter you're in, there will be 0:27:22.040 --> 0:27:24.600 people you hate and disagree with their but it it 0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:28.639 traps you in this kind of like chunk of discourse 0:27:28.920 --> 0:27:32.720 that will give you a vastly like fucked up and 0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:35.480 inflated and incorrect view of like and this is again 0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:38.320 it depends are you on like uh like tech Twitter, 0:27:38.440 --> 0:27:40.679 you want journalist Twitter, you want black Twitter, right like, 0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:43.640 You'll get different variants of this, but none of them 0:27:43.680 --> 0:27:47.680 correspond directly to the real world because, for one thing, 0:27:48.080 --> 0:27:51.080 the couple of dozen million people who use Twitter it's 0:27:51.119 --> 0:27:55.040 not very large as a service, are all a specific 0:27:55.119 --> 0:27:57.480 selected group of the kind of weirdos who are likely 0:27:57.520 --> 0:28:01.520 to use Twitter. Not many, yeah so, but the it 0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:05.399 warps everyone's perspective if you let it right, if you 0:28:05.440 --> 0:28:07.200 don't use it the way it ought to be used, 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.280 which is as a way of kind of curating the 0:28:09.320 --> 0:28:13.359 news and um a way of getting like a discrete 0:28:13.359 --> 0:28:16.040 set of opinions, but one that does not correspond to 0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:19.560 popular like throughout the you know, we had we had 0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:22.280 a gun control measure come up in Portland recently, and 0:28:22.320 --> 0:28:26.000 if I had listened to my uh my Twitter, you 0:28:26.040 --> 0:28:28.040 know followers, I would have been pretty sure that it 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:30.520 was going to fail. But I was also paying attention 0:28:30.560 --> 0:28:34.040 to like conversations people were having elsewhere and just kind 0:28:34.040 --> 0:28:36.359 of information that I could pick up to be like, yeah, 0:28:36.359 --> 0:28:38.400 this is going to be like an incredibly tight vote. 0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:40.600 But it would have been really easy to do what 0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:42.840 people do with like Trump and what people did with 0:28:42.960 --> 0:28:45.960 Hillary Clinton, where you're like, well, everyone in my timeline 0:28:46.000 --> 0:28:48.960 says this, so this must be the predominant opinion. And 0:28:49.040 --> 0:28:52.680 Musk is doing like the most concentrated version of that 0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:56.440 on himself, where he's like hosting these polls which are 0:28:56.520 --> 0:28:59.560 deeply unscientific and very easy to manipulate the bots and 0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:03.000 being like, look, twenty million people voted the voice of 0:29:03.000 --> 0:29:06.320 the people. You know, like, no Elon, You've you've created 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:10.480 You've created a little machine that's entire purpose is to 0:29:10.520 --> 0:29:14.360 skew your view of reality. Um, this is going to 0:29:14.480 --> 0:29:18.760 have very disastrous consequences, not just on your mental health, 0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:22.040 but on your ability to engage with the world, because 0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:26.120 being able to like understand what's actually happening and how 0:29:26.160 --> 0:29:28.920 people actually feel outside of the weird bubble of your 0:29:28.960 --> 0:29:33.880 online friends is crucial for not going insane. That's such 0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:36.520 a good point. And speaking of going insane, you know, 0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:39.960 we started our conversation talking about that fucking wild ass 0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:43.560 picture that Elon Musk posted, you know, that toy guns 0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:47.560 and the four diet cokes decaffeinated diet Coke. I'm just 0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:50.320 gonna decaffeinated, which is hard to find. That's a that's 0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:56.400 a rare, rare drink. First, baby, shit, the cut next 0:29:56.440 --> 0:29:59.360 to my bed, there's two real guns and like tin 0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:02.360 more Z is then there, so like, fuck you, Ellen, 0:30:02.520 --> 0:30:06.560 you're stealing, Like that's cultural appropriation, Robert, is it caffeinated 0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:10.400 decaffeinated Zbia, This is very it's a mix I like 0:30:10.480 --> 0:30:13.560 the decaffeinated cola Zeba actually, and I do drink that. 0:30:13.840 --> 0:30:16.560 The coal is good, but it's a little bit too acidic. 0:30:16.720 --> 0:30:19.640 So the decaffeinated Zevia cola is one of my fades. 0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:25.080 Robert loves Zevia. I've never had it. Oh, it's it's 0:30:25.120 --> 0:30:27.560 the best. I recommend picking up a couple of guns, 0:30:27.840 --> 0:30:29.920 buying six to eight zva is, keeping them by your 0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:33.120 bedside table a good time, and like a really weird 0:30:33.200 --> 0:30:39.160 ominous glass water bottle. Yeah, and like a really really 0:30:39.240 --> 0:30:43.400 really thick like lamp fixture. I don't know what's happening there, 0:30:43.400 --> 0:30:46.720 but the decaffe neated diet coke is very upsetting. It 0:30:46.760 --> 0:30:48.640 was a lot, And I guess one of the questions 0:30:48.640 --> 0:30:51.240 I have for the both of you is there's a 0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:53.440 kind of I don't know how to how to put it, 0:30:53.480 --> 0:30:56.920 but a kind of like ship post Equality to Elon 0:30:57.080 --> 0:30:59.560 Moss to Eat to Kanye West, where they are so 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:02.160 ridiculous that it's hard to take them seriously. And at 0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:05.120 times I wonder like like is this meant to be 0:31:05.160 --> 0:31:07.200 a joke or is it serious? Is do you think 0:31:07.240 --> 0:31:09.959 that's an intentional tactic to kind of blur the lines 0:31:10.080 --> 0:31:12.880 of I'm just sucking around and kidding or I'm this 0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:15.040 is real and I'm serious, Like, is that is that 0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:20.560 part of how they are moving intentionally? Do you think? Yes? Yeah, 0:31:20.640 --> 0:31:23.600 I mean I agree, Yeah, I mean I think that well. 0:31:24.600 --> 0:31:27.600 I think that there's a degree of intention to manipulate 0:31:27.640 --> 0:31:32.080 the information ecosystem by taking personal control of major agents 0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:34.840 of it, right, And I think it's less a matter 0:31:34.880 --> 0:31:37.120 of like having total control and more a matter of 0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:40.040 being able to kind of subtly push things. That's how 0:31:40.040 --> 0:31:42.880 a guy like Bezos, who is more in control of himself, 0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:45.520 uses it. I think it would be a mistake too. 0:31:45.920 --> 0:31:48.360 I think it would be a mistake to credit Ellon 0:31:48.560 --> 0:31:52.120 with having too clear of a plan here. I just 0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:55.360 don't see evidence of that this all. Maybe there will, 0:31:55.440 --> 0:31:58.680 maybe he's he's playing five d hs, but I kind 0:31:58.720 --> 0:32:01.560 of think this is mourning sample of him having been 0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:06.160 manipulated and broken by social media to a point of 0:32:06.240 --> 0:32:08.560 kind of derangement than it is an example of him 0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:10.920 having some sort of cunning plot to manipult. Now. I 0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:12.640 do think some of the people who backed him in 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:16.000 this purchase, like the Saudis, certainly had those kind of goals, 0:32:16.120 --> 0:32:25.320 But I don't know that. I think Elon did. Yeah. 0:32:25.360 --> 0:32:27.960 One of the big similarities that I see to all 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:30.800 of these figures from Elon Kanye is this kind of 0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:35.280 CULTI quality that's around them. I read your substat piece 0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:38.960 about the cultiness of tech billionaires, which was brilliant, and 0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:41.080 how they sort of all benefit from this kind of 0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:44.400 myth like they are seeing something, they are onto something 0:32:44.400 --> 0:32:46.840 that other people just cannot see. Why do you think 0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:49.800 that we like, why are we seeing this rise of 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:52.440 the kind of CULTI leader type and it's just gonna 0:32:52.480 --> 0:32:54.080 be Do you think we're going to see more of 0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:57.400 this going forward? Yeah? I mean I think we're only 0:32:58.080 --> 0:33:01.800 number one. I think you always see people become more 0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:06.200 vulnerable to cult leaders in times like this, when there's 0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:10.040 great instability and change is happening rapidly and it's it's 0:33:10.080 --> 0:33:12.719 really difficult for people to get a kind of handle 0:33:13.200 --> 0:33:16.320 on reality and to feel like they're in a stable position. 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:18.680 And I think the kind of cult leaders who are 0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:21.840 most effective in that period are not like the ones 0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:24.080 who are like Keith Ranieri, where they're trying to keep 0:33:24.120 --> 0:33:26.600 a sex harem around them. It's the people who are 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:30.920 trying to get a large chunk of the population to 0:33:31.040 --> 0:33:33.760 buy in with them in an alternate vision of reality. 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:36.400 That's what Trump has always done, and he's been very 0:33:36.400 --> 0:33:40.080 good at it. Uh. And I think those were not 0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:42.880 yet past the era of those monsters. And we may not, 0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:45.360 like we who are around right now, may not live 0:33:45.400 --> 0:33:47.520 to see the other side of it. This is not 0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:51.880 a new thing in in history, you know, in during 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:55.960 kind of the late Classical period or the Lake Grecian 0:33:56.000 --> 0:33:59.960 Classical period, when you had like Athens, the Athenian state 0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:04.400 collapse and you had all of these different kind of like, uh, 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.960 invasions and wars and stuff kind of destroying this this 0:34:08.520 --> 0:34:11.480 the civilization that the Greeks had built, or at least 0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:14.560 its dominance over that part of the world. Um, you 0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:18.359 had writers noting like at the time that these these 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:21.919 demagogues had become increasingly popular, these guys going in front 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:25.839 of these societies that had been quasi democratic and being like, look, 0:34:25.920 --> 0:34:29.200 just hand over power to me. You know, I've got 0:34:29.239 --> 0:34:31.680 this vision of the way we can fix things, and 0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:35.000 and getting people to buy in on that vision has 0:34:35.000 --> 0:34:37.759 always been like the tool of a demagogue. There's not 0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:40.440 a big difference between demagogue and a cult leader. And 0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:44.440 I think We're in a similar position, right whereas things 0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:47.400 increasingly fall apart, more and more people are going to 0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:49.920 be vulnerable to someone who is willing, who is able 0:34:49.960 --> 0:34:52.720 to wrap them up in a vision of the world 0:34:52.920 --> 0:34:55.600 that that may not be accurate, but is more comforting 0:34:56.040 --> 0:35:01.160 than reality. And if enough people agree to to kind 0:35:01.160 --> 0:35:03.919 of make a place for that in their own heart, 0:35:04.520 --> 0:35:07.560 then you can do some pretty impressive things as a 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:10.319 cult leader. So yeah, I don't think we're past that 0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:14.440 that world at all. Yeah, it's I mean, like I saw, 0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:16.759 I was like getting very frustrated at a pretty clear 0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:19.040 example of what you're talking about with regards to Musk. 0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:22.000 Where Musk was it's almost like a Q and Nanni 0:35:22.120 --> 0:35:25.560 vibe where he was getting and also taking a lot 0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:29.080 of credit for combating child sexual abuse material from Twitter 0:35:29.280 --> 0:35:32.279 despite like not like like that was just like a 0:35:32.360 --> 0:35:34.640 thing that propped up like, oh, thank you for taking 0:35:34.680 --> 0:35:38.640 action to combat this, and it's just like not a 0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:41.000 thing that is happening. He fired the team that's in 0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:44.200 charge of combating child sexual abuse material, like there's not 0:35:44.239 --> 0:35:46.960 really evidence and he's done anything that actually meaningfully made 0:35:46.960 --> 0:35:49.359 a difference with it. But in taking over, there's just 0:35:49.440 --> 0:35:52.280 this alternate reality popping up that he's this big crusader 0:35:52.320 --> 0:35:55.520 for protecting children online, which it's just not true. Yeah, 0:35:55.520 --> 0:35:58.520 I mean we could argue he made it less safe. Yeah, 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:02.360 he made it less well. Twitter has purged its childlike 0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:04.880 safety team, like the people whose job it is to 0:36:04.920 --> 0:36:08.480 make sure that there's not content on there that's endangering children. Like, 0:36:08.520 --> 0:36:11.439 there's like one of them left employed basically for all 0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:16.360 of Asia. Like, so he's objectively made it less safe, 0:36:16.520 --> 0:36:23.560 but you know that who cares. It'll be fine. Thankfully 0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:26.959 we've got Apple sailing and to rescue us all here, 0:36:27.120 --> 0:36:30.400 I guess. But it does seem like the same pattern 0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:33.920 Bridgets pointed out several times, where it's like, let's attack 0:36:33.960 --> 0:36:39.040 a brand. That's something that happens so often, and I think, 0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:42.040 like it's I think this is such a such a 0:36:42.040 --> 0:36:44.200 weird point. But I do think it's one of the 0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:47.120 things that I think extremists who coordinate online are really 0:36:47.200 --> 0:36:51.160 good at, is coordinating folks to attack a brand or 0:36:51.200 --> 0:36:53.799 a corporation, and corporation is not really necessarily knowing how 0:36:53.800 --> 0:36:55.399 to deal with it. It's like, oh no, we're being 0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:58.399 you know, like they're not able to say, like, oh 0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:01.920 this is a manufactured outrage campaign and we should encount 0:37:01.920 --> 0:37:04.200 own to it or whatever. I think that folks coordinating 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:07.719 online are uniquely good at that kind of pressure, and 0:37:08.000 --> 0:37:11.880 brands and corporations aren't necessarily good at with standing it 0:37:12.040 --> 0:37:15.360 or pushing back against it. I guess I should say, Yeah, 0:37:15.520 --> 0:37:18.360 what do you make of all the like handwringing that 0:37:18.440 --> 0:37:21.560 Musk does about like free speech on Twitter? And then 0:37:21.800 --> 0:37:23.960 you know, on the one hand, being like, we need 0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:26.600 to protect free speech or we'll fall into tyranny. These 0:37:26.640 --> 0:37:29.319 anti fascist researchers are all banned, Like, what do you 0:37:29.360 --> 0:37:32.000 make of that? Well, I mean, he's he's It's what 0:37:32.040 --> 0:37:34.840 I was saying earlier. He exists entirely within this bubble, 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:37.719 and it's a bubble made up of praise from strangers, 0:37:37.760 --> 0:37:40.600 which is why, like it kind of shows you. I 0:37:40.640 --> 0:37:43.759 don't know anything about Musk's present mental health state, but 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:47.239 I wonder about it because it definitely seems like there's 0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:49.800 something in him that needs the approval of cat tured 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:54.520 uh Like, which is a prominent far right Twitter account, 0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:59.080 like all these weirdos he's and he's always been sympathetic 0:37:59.120 --> 0:38:00.600 to the right, you know, I just look at who 0:38:00.600 --> 0:38:03.600 he donated to the most. You know, I'm not surprised 0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:06.240 by that, but I think the way in which social 0:38:06.239 --> 0:38:08.319 media works means that a lot of people, if you 0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:12.200 aren't careful, you'll get drawn further and further and further 0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:16.400 into webs of people who are kind of increasingly extreme 0:38:16.520 --> 0:38:19.880 in their opinions. And with Musk, the way it's happening 0:38:19.960 --> 0:38:22.600 is those people are making a concerted effort to be 0:38:22.640 --> 0:38:25.520 really nice to him. So while everybody else's is banging 0:38:25.560 --> 0:38:28.160 on him and making fun of him for being an idiot, Uh, 0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:30.960 these folks are calling him a genius in the future 0:38:30.960 --> 0:38:33.520 of the world, and he's he's deeply vulnerable to praise 0:38:33.560 --> 0:38:37.160 like all narcissists. So I think that's just what's happening 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:39.759 is these are the people who are being nice to him, 0:38:39.840 --> 0:38:43.160 and he's kind of taking on their view of what's 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:46.200 happening on Twitter, even though it does not correspond to 0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:49.280 reality in any measurable way. Like what do you think 0:38:49.480 --> 0:38:51.440 will happen? Like what do you think is at stake? 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:55.839 If anti fascist voices, leftist voices, you know, are all 0:38:55.880 --> 0:38:58.759 either suspended from the platform or are just like funk this, 0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:01.279 it's not worth it. I'm leaving like that, Like, what 0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:03.480 do you think happens if that's the case. Well, you know, 0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:07.600 there's a degree to which I'm worried because Twitter was always, 0:39:07.600 --> 0:39:09.600 of all of the different things we've had on social media, 0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:14.640 the very best for spreading left wing views and media. 0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:17.560 That's why all of these weirdo things that crime think 0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:21.760 who just got banned had Twitter platforms. It's worked pretty 0:39:21.760 --> 0:39:24.120 well for the distribution of that kind of stuff, and 0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:27.040 it was a good way for people to make connections 0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:29.480 with each other. Um, there's a reason why so much 0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:33.319 of the uprisings started, you know, with people seeing Twitter ship. 0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:35.240 Not to like say that, oh it started because of Twitter, 0:39:35.280 --> 0:39:38.080 but it started because people encountered the video of George 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:41.160 Floyd being murdered on fucking Twitter, and people encountered videos 0:39:41.160 --> 0:39:44.040 of like protests and uprisings in their own city and 0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:45.880 then went out into the street and stuff, and that 0:39:46.400 --> 0:39:49.879 the fact that that might go away is concerning. At 0:39:49.920 --> 0:39:54.360 the same time, Twitter was not just a place where 0:39:54.840 --> 0:39:58.680 leftist ideas and like left wing thinkers were able to 0:39:58.760 --> 0:40:01.480 spread stuff. It was a place where the left tour 0:40:01.560 --> 0:40:06.400 itself apart every forty seventy two hours. So the fact 0:40:06.440 --> 0:40:09.600 that it might be like, there's also going to be 0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:13.600 benefits if it collapses. I think more than anything, there 0:40:13.640 --> 0:40:15.560 will be bad things, there will be good things. There's 0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:17.840 stuff that will be calamitous about it, there's stuff that 0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:20.839 will be positive. At the end of the day, this 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:23.640 was always going to happen some way, maybe not this suddenly, 0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:27.400 but nothing lasts forever. We've had social media sites that 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:31.239 were huge parts of the Internet fall into disrepair and 0:40:31.480 --> 0:40:34.359 and obscurity before, and it will happen again. It will 0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:37.040 happen to whatever replaces Twitter. You know, it will happen 0:40:37.080 --> 0:40:39.160 to TikTok one day. This is just the thing. The 0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:41.839 thing that the Internet does is the thing that everything does. Right, 0:40:42.440 --> 0:40:46.280 Nothing nothing gold or even crusted in poop, can stay. 0:40:46.560 --> 0:40:49.640 So I I I'm at a certain level. I don't 0:40:49.640 --> 0:40:52.960 think it's I think it's reasonable to be concerned about 0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:55.520 the way this could impact you or your community. And 0:40:55.560 --> 0:40:58.239 I'm not saying people who have those concerns are being unreasonable, 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:02.120 but personally I'm kind of trying to have like a well, 0:41:02.160 --> 0:41:04.080 this is just the you know, it's the way it goes. 0:41:04.680 --> 0:41:06.640 Twitter was never gonna be around forever, and if this 0:41:06.680 --> 0:41:08.239 is how it dies, this is how it dies, so 0:41:08.280 --> 0:41:11.120 we'll have to figure something else out. Wow, that is 0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:15.400 a surprisingly it's like rosy take from someone who was 0:41:15.480 --> 0:41:19.880 like one of the least optimistic people that I know. Well, 0:41:20.160 --> 0:41:21.960 you know, I have been around on the Internet a 0:41:21.960 --> 0:41:24.719 long time, and I am a poster. I am I 0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:28.320 it is woven deep into my blood. But I've posted 0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:31.560 many places, UM, and I will be posting in many 0:41:31.560 --> 0:41:34.920 places in the future, regardless of what happens to posting 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:38.120 on this particular platform. And I think that's true of 0:41:38.160 --> 0:41:40.279 all the of all the great posters, of the ones 0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:43.120 who are certainly greater than I, people like Drill, you know, 0:41:43.200 --> 0:41:46.439 there they'll find a place. You know. The posters never die, 0:41:46.560 --> 0:41:52.360 they just post in different websites. So one of my 0:41:52.440 --> 0:41:55.360 last questions for you is, I was reading this um 0:41:55.600 --> 0:41:58.360 interview that you did with Box about gamer Gate and 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:02.240 sort of online it's reamism more broadly, and on this show, 0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:04.520 we really argue that there is a direct line between 0:42:04.680 --> 0:42:07.840 online movements that are based in harassing marginalized people. We 0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:10.239 often start those conversations with gamer Gate, but we also 0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:12.719 talked about instances that predate and led the gamer Gate. 0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:16.320 I argue that there's a direct line between those movements 0:42:16.440 --> 0:42:19.560 and the rise of extremist movements today. Um, if people 0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:22.080 had taken those movements more seriously, or people with power 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:24.279 had like done something to stop them, perhaps things would 0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:26.799 be different. I wonder do you see those things as 0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:31.440 linked as well? Yeah, I I guess so. My own 0:42:31.440 --> 0:42:33.600 thinking on the matter is kind of muddled, but but 0:42:33.719 --> 0:42:38.160 probably yeah, probably, Yeah, I like it. No, I mean, 0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:40.440 it's I see what you mean. It's it's a that 0:42:40.600 --> 0:42:43.240 is my through line that I am always like beating 0:42:43.280 --> 0:42:45.919 that drum. You know, all the people that I've talked 0:42:45.920 --> 0:42:48.960 to who were targets of that kind of harassment that 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:51.719 predated gamer Gate, they all said the same thing, like, 0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:54.600 I don't think that if somebody would have done something 0:42:54.640 --> 0:42:58.320 about it, then that like we could say Trump wouldn't 0:42:58.320 --> 0:43:00.800 have been elected, or that we could say the insurrection 0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:03.319 would have happened. They don't believe that, but they do 0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:05.640 have this question of like, could something have been different? 0:43:05.719 --> 0:43:09.799 Could extremists would they have less of a hold on 0:43:09.840 --> 0:43:13.160 our democracy and our discourse? Would they be less legitimized, 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:16.520 would media no to not spend a couple of cycles 0:43:16.800 --> 0:43:19.560 talking about how dapper they are or whatever? And amplifying 0:43:19.600 --> 0:43:22.000 their messages in these ways, would we have been primed 0:43:22.000 --> 0:43:24.480 to handle it differently? And so it's not. It's never 0:43:24.520 --> 0:43:26.160 like a clear line of like, oh, it would never 0:43:26.200 --> 0:43:28.759 have happened. It's more of a like, what things have 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:31.800 been a little bit different? Yeah, I mean, I think 0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:36.120 if the entirety of media were not driven by what 0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:39.360 gets the most clips or what gets the most clicks 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:42.000 and thus, like, if that were not the primary thing 0:43:42.080 --> 0:43:45.759 that determined whether or not journalism is profitable, we would 0:43:45.760 --> 0:43:48.359 be in a better place. And if if that were 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:51.760 not the entire thing determined what made journalism profitable, stuff 0:43:51.800 --> 0:43:54.759 like gamer Gate wouldn't have taken off right um if 0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:56.520 it were, because I think one of the things I've 0:43:56.560 --> 0:43:58.520 come to believe there was this period of time after 0:43:58.520 --> 0:44:00.799 gamer Gate where I was like, if only they had 0:44:00.800 --> 0:44:02.799 paid attention to us when we were trying to warn 0:44:02.880 --> 0:44:04.919 them about what these people are like, about the fact 0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:06.640 that none of them are telling the truth, that they're 0:44:06.680 --> 0:44:10.279 all lying to try and push an agenda that you 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:13.359 can't take them seriously or literally in any way, shape 0:44:13.440 --> 0:44:15.120 or form. You have to take them seriously, but you 0:44:15.160 --> 0:44:18.240 can't assume that they're honest. You can't. You can't engage 0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:21.359 with them, You can't debate them, because they're liars and 0:44:21.400 --> 0:44:25.520 they're they're entirely attempting to just sort of like get 0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:29.880 clout by, you know, bringing their ship up. Like you 0:44:29.960 --> 0:44:32.839 cannot engaging with them in any way other than two 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:37.080 like attack them is a waste of time and deeply 0:44:37.160 --> 0:44:39.800 damaging the society. There was a time when I believed 0:44:39.800 --> 0:44:42.120 we could have convinced, like, if we could have convinced 0:44:42.520 --> 0:44:45.319 the fucking Jake Tappers of the world of that that, um, 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:47.879 we might have avoided a lot of terror. I don't 0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:50.120 think it's possible for them to have avoided it, because 0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:52.719 engaging with those people and highlighting them and putting them 0:44:52.760 --> 0:44:54.440 up in the center of your shows is worth too 0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:57.640 much money because it trends, because that's like that. So 0:44:57.680 --> 0:44:59.840 at the end of the day, I think that the 0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:03.200 nature of how what makes media profitable in the twenty 0:45:03.239 --> 0:45:05.799 first century meant we were always doomed to this. I 0:45:05.800 --> 0:45:07.960 don't think it's the way the internet works. Inherently the 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:10.440 internet makes this stuff easier. But at the end of 0:45:10.440 --> 0:45:13.920 the day, the reason why these people were able to 0:45:14.480 --> 0:45:17.520 break containment from the dark corners of the Internet where 0:45:17.520 --> 0:45:19.880 they were harassing individual people to the point where they 0:45:19.880 --> 0:45:23.480 are threatening society on a broader level. Is because it's 0:45:23.520 --> 0:45:28.080 really profitable to hold these weirdos up in front of 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:30.200 the mainstream and say, look at this, Look at this, 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:34.320 look at this. Do you see that as a vibe 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:37.480 that will ever be rid of unless we completely radically 0:45:37.719 --> 0:45:40.680 change the way that our media functions in the United Yeah, 0:45:41.080 --> 0:45:44.040 So having these people in our society in anywhere near 0:45:44.080 --> 0:45:50.400 prominence is not sustainable. Eventually, the eventually something will happen, 0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:55.799 something violent, something disastrous. Uh, and and then they'll either 0:45:55.920 --> 0:46:00.000 all die or be forced back underground. This has happened 0:46:00.000 --> 0:46:02.640 a few times in history before. The question is how 0:46:02.680 --> 0:46:06.640 many of us wind up going down out with them? Yeah, 0:46:06.680 --> 0:46:09.680 there's that optimism that I'm used to from you, Robert. 0:46:12.920 --> 0:46:14.879 That's so funny that you say that about Robert, because 0:46:14.920 --> 0:46:17.000 I find him to be one of the most like hope. 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:20.600 He always finds hope in things, there's all I mean. 0:46:20.640 --> 0:46:24.440 I I firmly believe there's always something to be hopeful about, 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:29.040 even if everything feels like shit. Yeah, I mean, like 0:46:29.120 --> 0:46:32.200 that's that's that's like one of the things that we've 0:46:32.239 --> 0:46:35.440 imbedded into all of our shows on cools and media, 0:46:35.480 --> 0:46:39.759 is that there's always hope in figuring out and optimistic 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:46.200 approach to the to the healthscape we currently are living through. Meanwhile, 0:46:46.280 --> 0:46:49.319 your shows have titles like it could Happen Here that 0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:53.160 like titles that keep me up at night and Internet 0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:56.440 Hate Machine. Hey, that was your idea. You came up 0:46:56.440 --> 0:46:58.360 with that title, Robert, I did come up with that title. 0:47:00.880 --> 0:47:03.560 I think that. I think, Uh, that's a good place 0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:05.640 to end it us, Sophie. Is there anything that I 0:47:05.800 --> 0:47:08.320 missed that I should mention? No, you always crush it. 0:47:08.360 --> 0:47:12.080 You never miss anything. Well, thank you for all your help, Robert. 0:47:12.080 --> 0:47:13.600 Thank you so much for being here. It has been 0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:16.080 an honor. Thank you for having me. Where can folks, 0:47:16.080 --> 0:47:18.000 I'm sure that I'm sure anybody listening to this is 0:47:18.040 --> 0:47:20.359 already obsessed with your shows, But where can folks listen 0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:23.719 to your shows? Tell us about the Bastards, etcetera. Well, 0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:26.520 we got Behind the Bastards, which is weekly. We got 0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:29.480 it could Happen here every day. I'm not on it 0:47:29.520 --> 0:47:31.920 every day, but I'm on it a lot. I have 0:47:31.920 --> 0:47:33.960 a book called After the Revolution you can buy at 0:47:33.960 --> 0:47:36.439 any of the places that you can buy books, and 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:39.800 I also have a sub stack where I write essays 0:47:39.840 --> 0:47:43.319 every week. You can find it at shatter zone dot 0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:47.320 sub stack dot com, shatter zone dot sub stack dot com. 0:47:47.360 --> 0:47:50.279 That's that's my little basically a blog. They call it 0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:52.480 a newsletter whatever you can call it, whatever you want. 0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:55.480 I don't care. And then and then by the this 0:47:55.600 --> 0:47:59.000 is coming out next week. So on the December the eight, 0:47:59.160 --> 0:48:01.520 Robert a Great kill Joy and myself we'll be doing 0:48:01.520 --> 0:48:05.000 a special livestream episode of Behind the Bastards with the 0:48:05.080 --> 0:48:07.840 Q and A. And you can get your tickets that 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:13.680 moment dot co, slash e TV. Yeah, motherfucker's. Oh my god, 0:48:13.680 --> 0:48:16.239 I can't wait for that. I love Margaret, Margaret's the 0:48:16.280 --> 0:48:19.920 best listen to Margaret show Who People who did cool stuff? 0:48:20.880 --> 0:48:26.600 That's my plug. Internet Hate Machine is a production of 0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:29.439 cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 0:48:29.520 --> 0:48:32.120 check out our website cool zone media dot com, or 0:48:32.160 --> 0:48:34.680 find us on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:48:34.760 --> 0:48:36.360 or wherever you get your podcasts.