1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,000 Speaker 1: I look too formal? Do I look too? Now? 2 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 2: I got dressed up for you too. 3 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Oh that's nice. 4 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 2: All right, here we go. I'm really excited to talk 5 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 2: to you, Jeff, because I need a therapy session about 6 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 2: what the fuck is going. 7 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: On, and I'm excited to talk to you. 8 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 2: America has long thought of itself as a country and 9 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: a people built on revolution. Past tense seventeen seventy six 10 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 2: feels like a long time ago. But in twenty twenty five, 11 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: at almost two hundred and fifty years old, it feels 12 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 2: a bit like the country is on the verge of 13 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 2: another revolution, and it looks a lot different this time around. 14 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: America's great experiment in democracy is showing signs of strain. 15 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 2: The founders warned that this day could come a time 16 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 2: when our system could fail, a stress test brought about 17 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 2: by a man named Donald Trump. So what happens when 18 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: a nation that prides itself on checks and balances starts 19 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 2: ignoring the checks and gets decidedly off balance? Who better 20 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: to talk about all of this and more than Jeffrey Goldberg, 21 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: who is editor in chief of the Atlantic. They've got 22 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: a new issue out called The Unfinished Revolution, which takes 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: on these questions and ask can the ideals of seventeen 24 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: seventy six survive in twenty twenty five? Jeff Goldberg, I'm 25 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: so thrilled to talk to you. First of all, congratulations 26 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: on this massive, very ambitious issue of The Atlantic, one 27 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 2: of my favorite magazines. I don't know, Jeff, if you know, 28 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: but I am. 29 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: I know one of them. 30 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: Sorry, I would say yes, one of my top two 31 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 2: or three news sources. 32 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: How's that it's getting better. 33 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 2: I go to The Atlantic for perspective and deep dives. 34 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: I love the context and the writing and honestly the 35 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: deep reporting that you all do. So I've said that 36 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: time and time again. I'm not just sucking up, do you, Jeff, 37 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking you too. 38 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: You say it. 39 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: This is honest, it is and I think this November issue, 40 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: as I said, is very ambitious. I guess the biggest 41 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: issue yet since The Atlantic was started in what year. 42 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: Jeff, eighteen fifty seven. And I'm not one hundred percent 43 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: sure of that, but for the purposes of this podcast, 44 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: let's just say that it's the biggest issue you've ever done. 45 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: Okay, and eighteen fifty seven you are sure of that. 46 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 2: I know Okay, remember eighteen fifty seven, so let's talk 47 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 2: about this issue. I would love to hear the genesis 48 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 2: of this when you all and the other brainiacs at 49 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: the Atlantic were sitting around a table talking about tackling 50 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 2: something this major and this consequential. Tell me about that conversation. 51 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: We actually wear capes and tights at the brainiac table. 52 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: So I mean it's actually, look, we had to do 53 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: so everybody wants to and has to do something around 54 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 1: the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary coming up. I mean 55 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: it's really interesting because because both of us remember nineteen 56 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: seventy six as kids, right, and I remember, you know, 57 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: it was after Watergate, but mainly I remember the boats. 58 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: You know, they had tall ships and there are a 59 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: lot of fireworks, and it was great, right, And we 60 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: would do something for the two fifty anyway. But right 61 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: now there are a lot of questions in America that 62 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: we thought were settled questions but seemed to be very unsettled, right, 63 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: And so the urgency to do an issue that's not 64 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: just not just celebrates America or bemoans something, or it 65 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: just says, wow, what a long, strange trip it's been, 66 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: But actually looks at what the founders wanted and where 67 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,839 Speaker 1: we are right now, and what we can learn from 68 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: the founding of America and the motivation behind the revolution. 69 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: It seems very very urgent because obviously the and I'm 70 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: sure we'll get there, but this is what's on my mind, 71 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: so I'm just going to articulate it right now. The 72 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: founders were very pessimistic about human nature and designed our 73 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: government and our system so that it would be protected 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: against human ego and human desire for power and human corruption. 75 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: Right and it's mainly worked, but it's under some real 76 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: challenge today, and so you know, obviously we wanted to 77 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: do something around two fifty because we're an American magazine. 78 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: We love America and we love the American idea. It 79 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: was actually founded in eighteen fifty seven as the Magazine 80 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: of the American Idea. That's what the founders actually called it. 81 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: And the actual impetus was a conversation I had with 82 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: Ken Burns. We've done things together before, and obviously you 83 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: and your listeners and viewers know who Ken Burns is. 84 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: Obviously he's a great documentarian, a great chronicler of the 85 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: American story. He told me this is a long time ago, 86 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: already that he was working on an American Revolution documentary 87 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: for PBS. This will be out November sixteenth, I think 88 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: it starts airing. And I thought, oh, you know, he 89 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: taps into some of the same historians and scholars that 90 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: we tap into for subjects like this, and I thought, 91 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: let's just combine efforts a little bit and we can 92 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: be in some ways companions to each other. The print 93 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: magazine with the digital expression and his twelve hour documentary, 94 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: which I have seen and it's magnificent. It's really fascinating, 95 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: and it reinvigorates the It brings the revolution back from 96 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: mythology into like, oh, it was a real war, you know. 97 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: I mean, we can talk about that too. I love it. 98 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: So we thought, let's just do something. Time it to 99 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: the release of Ken and Sarah Botstein and others their documentary. 100 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: And that's how it originally came to pass. When we 101 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: got around the Brainiac Table of Justice, we asked ourselves 102 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: a couple of questions, what do we want to know 103 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: about the actual revolution that we don't understand? You know? 104 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: I was always interested, and I think everybody is is. 105 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: You know, was King Georgia Third actually crazy? As a 106 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: loan or is there some more complication to that? And 107 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: it turns out he ended up kind of nuts, But 108 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: he was a complicated, interesting figure. And Rick Atkinson, the 109 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: great historian, has a wonderful piece about just the nature 110 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: of King George and what he wanted and how he 111 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: miscalculated in his relationship with the colonies. But it wasn't 112 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: always just craziness like the kind that you are familiar 113 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: with from Hamilton. And so we sat around and asked 114 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: a lot of questions about the revolution itself and the 115 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: battles of the revolution, the role of women and black 116 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: people and Native Americans and subjects like that, because of 117 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: one of the interesting subjects here is the way the loyalists, 118 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: those who were loyal to the king, actually were closer 119 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: to the abolitionist ideal than the founders, many of whom 120 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: were slaveholders, as you know. And you know, there's some 121 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: fascinating history there about how the loyalists in exchange for 122 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: the promise on the part of slaves of enslaved Black 123 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: Americans to fight on the British side, promising their freedom. 124 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: And you know, after the war, everybody included George Washington, 125 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: was like, get the slaves back. We're not screwing around 126 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: with this. So there's like there's dark elements, there's noble elements, 127 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: there's beautiful ideals expressed, there's falling short of those ideals, 128 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: and so that's part of it. The second part was 129 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: what does the revolution mean to us today? What are 130 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: the founding ideals and the founding documents being to us today? 131 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: And that's a lot of a lot of the magazine 132 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: is that kind of discussion. 133 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: Well, I'd love to hear about this intersection of the 134 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: present with the past, because obviously, Jeff, you acknowledge that 135 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 2: the American experiment is under extraordinary pressure at the moment, 136 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: and I'm curious about the very strange and fascinating timing 137 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: of looking at this whole American idea and the American 138 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: experiment at this moment in history right now that we're witnessing. 139 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, like I said, it's like, and I'm sure 140 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: you felt this, there are questions that we thought were 141 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: settled that just aren't settled. I mean, there are questions 142 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: about the durability and effectiveness of the separation of powers 143 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: that I think is really interesting. Right now. You know, 144 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: the founders of this country, you know, victorious off the 145 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: Revolution were obviously most afraid of tyranny, right, having just 146 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: freed themselves from a tyrannical king, they were like, how 147 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: do we prevent another king or a monarchical view of 148 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: how we should be run? How do we prevent that 149 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: from happening? And so there's separation of powers as an 150 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: executive branch, a legislative branch or judicial branch, and those 151 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: things have worked to check each other's power for two 152 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: hundred fifty years. Obviously, they've been crises. We had a 153 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: Civil War, of course, where everything broke down, but it's 154 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: more or less worked. And now we're in a moment 155 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: when oh, Congress, I mean, this is again this is 156 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: my view. It's not only my view, but my view, 157 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: Congress is not fulfilling its constitutional responsibilities to check the 158 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: power of the executive. The digital branch is operating independently 159 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: and has been in some ways manipulated by the executive branch. 160 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: The executive branch is trying to seize as much power 161 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: as possible. One of the most interesting questions, and again 162 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: we could discuss it, you know, at length. One of 163 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: an interesting question is that the executive branch is interested 164 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: in accruing as much power for itself as possible right now, 165 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: and the legislative branch, or the people who control the 166 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: legislative branch, are interested in accruing for the executive branch 167 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: as much power as possible. Doesn't make any sense, Like 168 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: the system only works, the system that the founder set 169 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: up only works if everybody is checking each other's power. 170 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: And so that's one subject that we wanted to try 171 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: to understand. But you know, going into the two fifty issue, 172 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: you know the fact that we're two hundred fty years old, 173 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: it's very obvious to me that there's a split in 174 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: the way Americans think about how to commemorate and celebrate America. 175 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: There is a brittle view, a very fragile understanding. And 176 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: I think you hear this from people in the Trump 177 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: administration and Trump himself that you can't criticize America, that 178 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: you we must downplay even in our museums. Right, we must. 179 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: Downrite our national parks or schools. 180 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: We must downplay the bad parts because we're perfect and 181 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: always have been perfect. Now, my theologically based a view 182 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: is that nothing human made is perfect. Put that aside 183 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: for a second, but it also it's it's it is 184 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: It's very That's what it alway strucks me. It's very fragile. 185 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: Like if you say anything bad about America, it means 186 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: you don't like America, the truth of the truth of 187 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: the Americans. 188 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: If America is a snowflake. 189 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: Well well yes, well by the way, you know, I 190 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: don't want to say that America is a snowflake, but 191 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: the people who are arguing this line seem like snowflakes. 192 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: But the the point is is this one of the 193 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: geniuses of America, of the American system, and an American 194 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: democratic impulse is that we examine what we're doing, and 195 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: when we realize that we're doing something that's wrong, we 196 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: fix it. Women didn't have the vote, and then they did. 197 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: There was slavery, and then the North went to war 198 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: against the South to end slavery. Right, and the story 199 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: of America is the story of the expansion of rights. Right. 200 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: That's a beautiful thing, and a lot of countries can't 201 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: point to self criticism is a form of patriotism. I 202 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: don't agree with like, I don't like people who think 203 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: that America is I think America has ultimately played a 204 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: positive and ameliative role in the world. I think if 205 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: you just look at the last century, I think the 206 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: feet of fascism and communism, global fascism and global communism, 207 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 1: that was pretty good. That was overall a pretty good 208 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: record for a century. And and so I'm immensely proud 209 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: of that. I'm also proud as an American of the 210 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: fact that when we go down wrong pathways, we have 211 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: the ability as a group of people, as citizens, and 212 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: we have the mechanisms within our system, including a free 213 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: press and an independent judiciary. We have the mechanisms to 214 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: make things better that were bad. And so celebrating that, 215 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: like not talking about slavery doesn't make slavery go away. 216 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 1: Not talking about slavery denies us the opportunity to talk 217 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: about ways we try to make things better, of course, 218 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: and that's that's the lesson for the rest of the world. 219 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you look at Russia, China, Iran, North Korea. 220 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: You look at these places and you say, those are 221 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: not Those are countries that could really benefit from some 222 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: openness and independent thought and self criticism in the American model, 223 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: and they don't have it. So I think we should 224 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: be I think we should be celebrating that. But again, 225 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: I think right now We're in this really weird moment 226 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: where there's a whole group of powerful people who think, 227 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: don't talk about it, don't say anything about it, and 228 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: I don't know why, and they are I guess they 229 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: are just definitionally snowflakes. 230 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on 231 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast, 232 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 2: and of course covering the news. And I know that 233 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 2: to keep doing what I love, I need to start 234 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why 235 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 2: I decided to try the Good Feet stores personalized arch 236 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: support system. I met with a Good Feet arch support 237 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 2: specialist and after a personalized fitting, I left the store 238 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: with my three step system designed to improve comfort, balance 239 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: and support. My feet, knees, and back are thanking me already. 240 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store, 241 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: or book your own free personalized fitting. Let's talk about 242 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: where we went wrong. If, in fact, you feel we're 243 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 2: in the midst of very disturbing times right when some 244 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 2: of the principles and the goals of the Founding Fathers 245 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: are being ignored. Is this because the Founding Fathers didn't 246 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: think of certain things oh, you one thing. 247 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: They didn't think of social media. I'm not even kidding. 248 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean, look, James Madison, you know, one of the 249 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: most important founders, drafter of the Constitution, James Madison. He 250 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: was a very past simistic about human nature. I mean 251 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: they all were to some degree. Jefferson believed that virtue, 252 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: you know, resided in the Yeoman farmer, and you know, 253 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: the cities were dens of iniquity and corruption. John Adams 254 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: was pretty is serbic. George Washington. I'd love to talk 255 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: about George Washington a second, because, I mean he did 256 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: the most amazing thing, especially given what we have now 257 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: in the White House. He did the most amazing thing 258 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: a president has ever done. 259 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: I'll get to and I know what that is. 260 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: He chopped down to the Surry Tree. 261 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: No, he's only served one. 262 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: Term, he said. 263 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: He you know, when where he didn't want to serve 264 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: a second. 265 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: People said to him, why don't you just become king? 266 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: He was like, nope, that's he literally almost said, nope, 267 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: you haven't been paying attention so what we were doing here. 268 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: You know, thank you very much. It's very kind of 269 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: you to think that I am, you know, worthy of 270 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: being you're a leader forever. But I would like to 271 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: just go home now, and somebody else can do this, 272 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: because I'm not actually indispensable, and everybody should take their 273 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: turn running the country and then step away from power. 274 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: That and by the way, one could argue that, you know, 275 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: FDR would have run forever and maybe won forever if 276 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: he had not died in nineteen forty five. But all 277 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: of our presidents until today have recognized the virtue in 278 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: Washington's approach to the office, which is that the White 279 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: House is not their house. It's they're borrowing the house 280 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: for a little while from the American people. Anyway, I'm 281 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: diverting from I moved from Madison to Washington, and I 282 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: want to come back to Madison. I'll talk about George 283 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: Washington all day and defend them all day, even though 284 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: they're bad parts of his record quite obviously, but Madison 285 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: was very pessimistic, so pessimistic that he thought the experiment 286 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: was failing, even as it was just information. And one 287 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: of the reasons he was pessive he was pessimistic about 288 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: the ability of human beings to wisely, cool and reasonably 289 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: govern themselves. Not Americans, just all humans. By our nature, 290 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: and Madison worried. This is fascinating given where we are now. 291 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: Madison worried that that the the uh innovation of the 292 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: daily newspaper was going to kill our democracy once and 293 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: for all, because the people would be given too much 294 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: information to rationally process. In other words, the daily delivery 295 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: of new information, once a day delivery of new information 296 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: was too much cognitively for humans to absorb. 297 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: Right, how prescient? 298 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: Right, it turns out, you know, we adjusted fairly well 299 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: to the daily newspaper. But to me, it's an open 300 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: question can we adjust to our new reality of endless 301 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: torrents of information, information and bad information? So you throw 302 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: in so it's and I'll give you an example. I've 303 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: always thought about this one as an interesting example of 304 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: something that couldn't happen in the social media era when 305 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 1: this is from you know, relatively recent times. You know, 306 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: when Richard Nixon had the idea that, oh, you know what, 307 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: maybe we should have relations with communist China. He sent 308 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger to Pakistan on a secret mission to meet 309 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: with high Chinese officials, and Pakistan was going to host 310 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: it discreetly. Henry Kissinger disappeared. I don't know the exact 311 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: number of days, seven eight, nine days, and he flew 312 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: off secretly to Pakistan, and he and the Chinese came 313 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: to an agreement that allowed for the opening for Richard 314 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: Nixon's historic visit to China that opened up the relationship. 315 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: The State Department lied about Henry Kissinger's They said he 316 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: had a cold and he was off, you know, resting, 317 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: or he had the flu or something that ain't going 318 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: to happen today. One can argue that that's misleading the 319 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: American people, you know, not telling them what our secretary 320 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: state doing. But you know what, if people had found out, 321 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: the deal would never have been done. And in this age, 322 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: we expect to know everything about where people are all 323 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: the time. And it's just that it's a minor example ultimately, 324 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: but it's so interesting to me because, I mean, the 325 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: Constitutional Convention wouldn't have worked if it had been covered 326 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: and discussed the way social media discusses things today. So 327 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: we are we're paralyzed by social media, and we're confused 328 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: by social media, and we're angered by social media in 329 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: a way that makes cool, rational, civically minded decision making 330 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: really really difficult. And so that's one thing that we 331 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: have today that they didn't have to deal with back 332 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: in the day. 333 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: And do you think James Madison would ever envision Jeff 334 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: a time when there is no common understanding of truth? 335 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: You know, that the facts are manipulated depending on who's 336 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: whose side they suit, right, Yeah, and facts are just 337 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 2: no longer facts, or the truth is no longer truth, 338 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: or their versions of it. Do you think that's one 339 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: of the primary reasons that our democracy is under such strain. 340 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a little bit more complicated answer 341 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: because back in those days, I mean, you know, and 342 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: this is one of the interesting things about what ken 343 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,479 Speaker 1: Burns does and what I think we try to do 344 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: in our in the issue, we try to bring the 345 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: revolution and the revolutionary period back into history and strip 346 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: it of some of its myth. I mean, the founders 347 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: were also ordinary men who had resentments and angers, and 348 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: the press was a you know, it was there were 349 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: dirty stuff going on, and there was there is calumny, 350 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: and there was accusation, and there were libel Remember how 351 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: Hamilton died. I mean, these guys were not you know, 352 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: they weren't a bunch of Dalai Lamas sitting there, you know, 353 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: selflessly trying to make decisions only in the best interests 354 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: of the people. So the press was filled with yellow 355 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: journalism back then. But what was different is that I 356 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: do believe what was true in seventeen seventy six was 357 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,959 Speaker 1: also true in the seventies and eighties and nineties of 358 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: the previous century, that there was more or less a 359 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: shared reality like here, this is a thing that is true, 360 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: and this is a thing that's not true. Right. By 361 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: the way, we haven't even gotten to the subject of 362 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: what would the founders of America make of the possibility 363 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: of ai agi and the idea and deep fakery. I mean, 364 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: I do what we're doing right now is we're performing 365 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: a completely unregulated experiment on the stress points of democracy, 366 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: right and the stress points of human reality, like how 367 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: much how much you know, how much pressure can we 368 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: put reality under before it just splinters apart? And I 369 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: think that's what you're you're getting at. We don't have 370 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: you want to hear a great example. I'll give you. 371 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: I'll give you a great example. Two hundred and fifty 372 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: years ago, George Washington mandated that the soldiers of the 373 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: Continental Army be vaccinated inoculated against smallpox. There was less 374 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: controversy over that mandate two hundred forty years ago, then 375 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: there's controversy about vaccines today. You know, I always think 376 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: when I think about this one, I always think about 377 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: the line popularized by President Obama the arc of history 378 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: is long, but it bends to our justice. Or you 379 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: could say the arc of history is long, but it 380 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: bends to our knowledge. Isn't it amazing that we have 381 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: a president today or a president surrounded by people in 382 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: his cabinet today who have less faith in the science 383 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,880 Speaker 1: of vaccination than George Washington. And I don't know if 384 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: some people know this, but vaccination back in those days, 385 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: inoculation wasn't something you go to CVS and you get 386 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: a shot. I mean they would scrape, you know, puss 387 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: from the wounds from the smallpox of living people and 388 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: then spread that puss into make a cut into another 389 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: person's arm and spread that puss. It was horrible. 390 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: I'm glad I haven't eaten breakfast. 391 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: No means no, but it's yeah, it was horrible, but 392 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: people like, all right, So, you know, George Washington studied 393 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: what the doctors of the day said, Here's why we 394 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: think it works, here's why you have to protect your 395 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: army against smallpox. And then I reader was like, well, okay, 396 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: if that's what the experts of the day say, we're 397 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: going to do it. 398 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 2: And believe me, I've been so upset about this assault 399 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: on science, Jeff and expertise, Knowledge and expertise writ large, right. 400 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, where are we when? I mean, look, by the 401 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: way I get it, scientists make mistakes. Doctors make mistakes. 402 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: You know that. I know that everybody knows that, but 403 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: I don't know. I always think of it this way. 404 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: If I went to one hundred doctors and ninety nine 405 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: told me that I had emphysema and one said, no, 406 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: you're just having an allergic reaction to you know, beef lomaine, 407 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: I'd be like, I'm going to go with the ninety nine. 408 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: You know what I mean, I wouldn't. I don't know 409 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: why I said beef lawmine. I guess it's lunch, the 410 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: you know. And it's like we're living in an age. 411 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: And this goes exactly to your point, this splintering where 412 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: it's like we don't share a reality. A reality tell 413 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: you that holds for all of us, that vaccines are 414 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: a good and not a bit. Yes, sometimes vaccines go awry. 415 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: We know that, our doctors know that, but overall vaccination 416 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: inoculation has saved millions and millions, hundreds of millions of lives. 417 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: And so why is this now? Why are we doing this? 418 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 2: It almost goes to our capacity to appreciate our mistakes 419 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: in the past. Right, there's a similar ethos at work 420 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 2: where you can't acknowledge that the United States science people 421 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: are not perfect and mistakes are made. I think the 422 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: question is what do you do with those mistakes? Do 423 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 2: you acknowledge them, do you try to improve on the situation? 424 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 2: Do you look at the sort of the greater good? 425 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just a very very strange time. But Jeff, 426 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about some of the specific 427 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: writers because there's some wonderful themes in this issue. Fittono 428 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 2: Tool rights that alex Ander Hamilton, perhaps prophetically quote suggested 429 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 2: that citizens needed politicians who had courage and magnanimity enough 430 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 2: to serve them at the peril of their displeasure, and 431 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: that he had a ready made term for the sheer 432 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 2: cowardice of so many legislators in today's Congress, and that 433 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: is servile pliancy. I think so many people have been 434 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 2: shocked by what could be described as servile pliancy in Congress, 435 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: and you talked earlier about them abdicating their role and 436 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: basically serving the purpose of bolstering the executive branch. And 437 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 2: you know, I've talked to many smart people about this, Jeff, 438 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: and there really doesn't seem to be any explanation other 439 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: than a desperate desire to maintain power and a fear 440 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 2: of being primaried. Essentially. 441 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I look, it's cowardice all the way down. 442 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: There is an understandable explanation and a pathetic explanation. You've 443 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: articulated the pathetic explanation. They want to keep their jobs 444 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: right at the cost of selling their souls right. They 445 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: want to be they want to be in power, they 446 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: want the trappings of power, and they don't want to 447 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: be primary. That's the malignant explanation. The kind of understandable 448 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: explanation is they literally fear for their physical safety and 449 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: for the safety of their families, as they should because 450 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: in the social media age, you know, I go back 451 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: to I always go back to what it was like 452 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: when we both started as reporters. You know, in the 453 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: old days, lunatics who believe that the IRS had planted 454 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: a chip in their brain and was spying on them, 455 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: or believe whatever that the government was hiding Martians. You know, 456 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: you would find them sometimes as a reporter standing outside 457 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: a federal building handing out like handing out eight page tracts, 458 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: you know, typed single space tracks and right, okay, thanks 459 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: a lot. Now those people have podcasts with millions of listeners, 460 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: They have websites, they they can they move that information 461 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: throughout the so in other words, in other words, it's very, 462 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: very easy to form a mob using the tools of 463 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: social media. And if you're a legislator who doesn't have 464 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: personal protection, you know, doesn't have you know, Capitol police 465 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: outside your house or secret Service or whatever, and you 466 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: live in a deep pro Trump state, and you know 467 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: that the people in your state are being inundated with 468 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: messages about how you're not just a bad legislator or 469 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: a mistaken whatever, but you're a trader, you're an enemy 470 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: or this or that, you're trying to destroy Americans civilization, 471 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: you're trying to destroy Christianity, you're trying to destroy whatever. 472 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: That's nerve wracking. I understand it. I also I also believe, 473 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: like if you can't, if you can't live inside that 474 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: tension and live with that level of danger, get out 475 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: of the business of trying to represent the people and 476 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: you're not fulfilling your oath to defend the Constitution. 477 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've 478 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: been following me on social media, you know I love 479 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of 480 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, 481 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 2: Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman, and Ininagarten. So I started a 482 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 2: free newsletter called Good Taste to share recipes, tips and 483 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 2: kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com slash 484 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: good Taste. That's k A t I E c O 485 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: U r Ic slash good Taste. I promise your taste 486 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 2: buds will be happy you did. I think you're touching 487 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: on something, Jeff. You know that, in many ways, other 488 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: than fear, some of these members of Congress think they 489 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: are serving their constituents because their constituents are being served 490 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 2: things that are then putting pressure on their representatives. If 491 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,719 Speaker 2: that makes sense, it's the opposite of a virtuous cycle. 492 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: Let me delineate between two issues. One is, we're not 493 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: talking about the battle of conservative and liberal ideas. Right, Like, 494 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: if you're a red state legislator and your constituents are 495 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: conservative and believe it a certain vision of how government 496 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: should run, the role of business, the whole range of 497 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: social and cultural issues, and you represent their views, you 498 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: probably already have those views anyway, because you're elected into 499 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: power by that state. That's fine, that's the American system, Like, 500 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: American democracy works best when liberal ideas and conservative ideas 501 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: are coming into collision and publicly vented so that people 502 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: can see what the options are. I'm talking about something else, 503 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: you know, which is you're an elected legislator. You're supposed 504 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: to function as a member of the legislative branch, which 505 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: means checking the power of the other two branches, standing 506 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: for transparency and fighting corruption, believing that the government should 507 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: employ the best people, not people who are friends or 508 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: donors to the president. I mean, those are not ideological issues. 509 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: That's just corruption versus non corruption. Right, So, like, you 510 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: could be the most conservative person on the planet and 511 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: support Donald Trump's vision of X or y or Z 512 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: and also say, but no, we're not taking a seven 513 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,959 Speaker 1: forty seven from the authoritarian regime and Cutter and then 514 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: doing business deals with them on the side. Like that's 515 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: not ideological, that's just. 516 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 2: That's just that's right wrong. I'm just right and wrong. 517 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: Like like, there's no conservative I mean, there is no theoretically, 518 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: there's no liberal view of presidential self dealing or a 519 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: conservative view of presidential self dealing. Remember what happened? How 520 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: did how did the Watergate drama end? A bunch of 521 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: Republicans on the hill set all right, that's it, Nixon, 522 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: you gotta go. 523 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 2: You've crossed the line, crossed the. 524 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: Line, and we're not We're not doing this anymore. And 525 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: this has been this is the story of our age, 526 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, And here's the thing. You you 527 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: know these guys, I know these guys. I know Lindsey Graham. Really, 528 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: I know that Lindsey Graham in another age would have 529 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: been standing right next to John McCain as John McCain said, 530 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: we're not taking a plane from Cutter for air Force 531 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: to use this air force one. What are you guys 532 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: out of your minds? 533 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: It almost makes me cry when I think of where 534 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: are the John McCain's, Jeff, where are the people? And 535 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: what the hell has happened to Lindsey Graham and all 536 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: these Republicans who are turning a blind eye or even worse, 537 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: supporting these kinds of actions that are either you know, corrupt, unconstitutional. 538 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 2: I mean, we could go down a laundry list of descriptions. 539 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: That's the look. I find that it's depressing, is as 540 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: you do. I mean sometimes I maybe I over personalize 541 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: it and think, oh, if John McCain were alive today, 542 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: he would be John McCain, you know, and he would 543 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: still be John McCain in the Senate calling calling this out. 544 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: I believe very few people are born leaders, I don't know. Again, 545 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: fear self interest, you know, and a lot of people, 546 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: and this is true in the Democrats, among Liberals, a 547 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: lot of people are like, yeah, I don't like the guy. 548 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: I don't like what he does on X and Y 549 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: and Z, but on this issue that's important to me, 550 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: he's with me. So I'm going to make that deal. 551 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: But again, like I said, it's not about ideology, it's 552 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: about character, personal behavior. Look. One of the things that 553 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: and this goes back to the core of what the 554 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: founders believed. You know, It's like, if you're gonna have 555 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: a democracy, you're gonna have to exercise Everyone is gonna 556 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: have to exercise self restraint. Just because you can do 557 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: something doesn't mean you should do it. Just because you 558 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 1: can say something doesn't mean you should say it. Being 559 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: mature and having self restraint is part and parcel of 560 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: how you function in a healthy democracy. And I don't know, 561 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,479 Speaker 1: And your question to me is actually the key question, 562 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: because none of what we are seeing would be happening. Look, 563 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: none of what we're seeing would be happening if ten Republicans, 564 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: seven Republican senators after January sixth, said you know what, 565 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to vote to convict Trump on impeachment charges, 566 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: on the charges brought from in the second impeachment because 567 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: he fomented an armed insurrection against the conduct of a 568 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: free and fair election all he needed, and then he 569 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,439 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been Then he would have been almost axiomatically 570 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: banned from running for office. So like the whole Republic 571 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: that you know, when we look back, who knows, ten 572 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: twenty thirty years from now, we might go and say, huh, 573 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: if Mitch McConnell and Rob Portman and a handful of 574 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: others had just actually lived their ideals or their stated ideals. 575 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: We wouldn't have seen all the things that we're seeing 576 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: this year so far, the dismantling of our Justice Department, 577 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: the dismantling of our foreign aid and information programs, that 578 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: dismand of the FBI. I don't have to give you 579 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: the laundry list. I don't know. I don't. I don't 580 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: know how to explain it other than that human beings 581 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: or are flawed creatures. 582 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 2: Before we go, Jeff, I wanted to ask you. You 583 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 2: have so many brilliant writers at the Atlantic. You do 584 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: this big issue, Jeff, you have some of the smartest 585 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 2: people I know or I read writing about these various issues. 586 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 2: Are you optimistic about the future. Do you feel that 587 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 2: the things we fought for in the Revolutionary War, the 588 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 2: ideals put forth by the founding fathers and adjusted throughout 589 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 2: history to meet the times we've been in At any 590 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 2: given moment, do you feel hopeful? 591 00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: I don't feel hopeful. I wouldn't. I wouldn't put myself 592 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: in the unhopeful category either. I think. I mean, what 593 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: I honestly think is that we don't know how AI 594 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: is going to reshape our collective and individual understanding of reality. 595 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if democracy can take the pressure that's 596 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: about to come down on it. When the feeds that 597 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: our citizens, our fellow citizens are receiving are filled with 598 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: highly produced, highly credible, seeming fakery. I don't know how 599 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: we're going to live in twenty four hour a day 600 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: chaos and not just have the capacity in space to 601 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: make good decisions. I don't know how we're going to 602 00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: get the information that's going to lead us to decisions. 603 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: So that's what right now. You add that to the 604 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,720 Speaker 1: sort of the social media mailstream, that's what I worry about. 605 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 1: And I guess, I mean I'm sounding more negative than positive. 606 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: I guess because that's the way I actually feel. But 607 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: like we just talked about people like Rob Portman, accomplished 608 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: senator from Ohio, former head of the OMB, talked about 609 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell, talk about all these guys. They're supposed to 610 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: be the best of us, right, These are our representatives. 611 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: These are the people that the people of their states 612 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: chose to represent them in the halls of the capital, 613 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: and they abdicated their responsibility out of fear, cowardice. I 614 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: don't know what, so what that's what our leaders were like. 615 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: So I don't know what the people. I don't know 616 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,800 Speaker 1: how the people react will react to the splintering reality 617 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: they're seeing, So I I wish I could be hopeful 618 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: about it. And we also have a mass literacy crisis. 619 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: I don't mean literacy in the classic sense of a 620 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: grown up reading at a third grade level or a 621 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: second grade level. I mean people who don't know what's 622 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: in the Declaration of Independence or don't know what's in 623 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: the constitution. You know, the death of civics, the death. 624 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 2: Of an educated electorate. 625 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: Have a democracy without an educated electorate. And let me 626 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: get very patriotic here. The founders of the country, despite 627 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 1: their huge flaws, set up, in theory, the best system 628 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: that any human being could come up with for the 629 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 1: maintenance and growth of a great nation. And we got 630 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: to listen. We've got to listen to them. On the left, 631 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: people want to throw them all out because they're dead 632 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: white males. On the right, people want to say that 633 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 1: they were perfect human beings. Let's not talk about their flaws, 634 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: and let's lie in lieu of actually taking what they 635 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: say in their most complicated expression. Let's just have a 636 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: big parade and get mad at people who don't want 637 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: to join the parade. That's where we are right now. Hope, 638 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: I hope, I hope. I mean, the American people have 639 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: been through much worse. Obviously. I'm sure in eighteen fifty 640 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,919 Speaker 1: seven when the Atlantic was founded, people weren't sitting around going, eh, 641 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: things are going pretty good. Huh. You know, we had 642 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,240 Speaker 1: a really crappy president in eighteen fifty seven wasn't the worst, 643 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: and the South was ready to depart, and Lincoln was 644 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: an inexperienced yokel who's coming into power. So it was 645 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: much I mean, it's kind of a compount to say, ah, 646 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: we've been through much worse, but we've been through much worse. 647 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: So I just think about the technological overlay is the 648 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 1: thing that might push us over the edge. 649 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 2: I hope that this magazine, this addition, this examination of 650 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 2: our values and how we got here and how they 651 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 2: withstood not only the test of time but so many 652 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 2: challenges over the last two hundred and fifty years, will 653 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:11,240 Speaker 2: perhaps invigorate people and make them think and talk about 654 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 2: where we are. Jeff, Because like you, I am deeply, 655 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 2: deeply concerned, and you know, I'm kind of a glass 656 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 2: half full person, you know, I think people are basically good. 657 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,919 Speaker 2: As my late husband used to say, I'm hardwired for 658 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 2: happiness and positivity. But I really I am really worried. Honestly, 659 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 2: I'm really worried, and I don't know. I hope we 660 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 2: find a way out because I love this country too. 661 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: We've gotten out of worse That's all I can say 662 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: is we've gotten out of worse situations. So I mean 663 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,359 Speaker 1: that's not a very hopeful statement, but it's you know, resilience, 664 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 1: and look, you know there's a many different versions of this. 665 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: Is that you know, Americans will do the right thing 666 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: after they do all the wrong things, you know, and 667 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: we'll make various mistakes and then we'll figure out the 668 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,439 Speaker 1: right path. We go up, we go down, we muddle through. 669 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, I do. I do think that a prerequisite 670 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,800 Speaker 1: is to It doesn't have to be reading The Atlantic. 671 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,399 Speaker 1: I mean it should be, but doesn't have. 672 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 2: To be or listening to next Question. 673 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 1: Or listening to to one of the two or three 674 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: greatest podcasts ever made. I'm not going to give you 675 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 1: best because you wouldn't give me best. Who are watching 676 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 1: Ken Burns's documentary, which is great, But everybody has to 677 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:40,240 Speaker 1: go meet the moment of actually being a citizen and asking, 678 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: I mean, this is why this is. This is not 679 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: to go back on this, but it's like the merry 680 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: minimum people should demand is that the government should hire 681 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,760 Speaker 1: the best people for the for the job, not people 682 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 1: who are friends of the president. 683 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 2: And people who know people who very simply, Jeff, do 684 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 2: the right thing. 685 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: I will give you the last word because that was Podcrick. 686 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 2: Jeff, thank you so much. It's great to talk to. 687 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: You, great to talk to you. 688 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me, 689 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 2: a subject you want us to cover, or you want 690 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,320 Speaker 2: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, 691 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 2: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would 692 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 2: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production 693 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 2: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, 694 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 2: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, 695 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 2: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian 696 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 2: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, 697 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 2: or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call, 698 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 2: go to the description in the podcast app or visit 699 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,319 Speaker 2: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me 700 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 2: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more 701 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 702 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's 703 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 2: Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the go between 704 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 2: running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course 705 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 2: covering the news. 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