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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is guitarist Alex Colnick. Alex explain jazz

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Speaker 1: to the.

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Speaker 2: Rocker A nice easy question to begin with, right, First

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Speaker 2: of all, thanks for having me on, Bob. I'm a

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Speaker 2: longtime reader, loyal reader. The occasional times I pop up

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Speaker 2: in the mail bag newsletters is always a big thrill,

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Speaker 2: So thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 3: So no, but really, I listen, jazz came along and

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Speaker 3: people say jazz is dead. It's funny you're playing jazz

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Speaker 3: now because the rock is dead. But you were, you know,

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Speaker 3: guitarist in Testament, and now you have the Alex Golnick trio,

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Speaker 3: which is jazz. Their two things. There's a lot How

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Speaker 3: did you get into jazz and how does the average

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Speaker 3: rocker come to understand jazz?

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Speaker 2: It was a very interesting journey for me because, yes,

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Speaker 2: as you mentioned, I'm sort of best known for being

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Speaker 2: the guitarist for Testament, which is from the San Francisco

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Speaker 2: Bay area music scene. We followed in the footsteps of Metallica.

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Speaker 2: I was very young when I joined the band and

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Speaker 2: I did my first record with the band. Way was eighteen,

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Speaker 2: shortly after high school, and I'd gone through this period

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Speaker 2: of just being in the post van Halen Revolution. You know,

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Speaker 2: it was all about Eddie van Halen and virtueoso guitar

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Speaker 2: players Rany Rhodes from the Ozzy Osbourne's band, the late

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Speaker 2: great guitarists like Joe Satriani who was actually a teacher

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Speaker 2: of mine, and I know, you know you've had him

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Speaker 2: on And by the time I was doing my first record,

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Speaker 2: I was still developing, you know. So at eighteen years old,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm still discovering things musically, and I guess

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Speaker 2: you know, the way I found my way to it

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Speaker 2: was music that is arguably jazz. So an example would

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Speaker 2: be the music that Miles Davis recorded in the eighties,

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Speaker 2: where he had like screaming guitarists like Mike Stern and

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Speaker 2: John Schofield. And also, you know what's considered jazz rock.

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Speaker 2: So al Damiola is a name a lot of rock

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Speaker 2: guitar players would know. He inspired a lot of rock

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Speaker 2: guitar players. You could talk to Zach Wilde about Aldamiola

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Speaker 2: and he would not stop talking. John Patucci from Dream

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Speaker 2: Theater was very inspired by al Damiola, and Aldemia sort

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Speaker 2: of occupies this space that's in between jazz and rock

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Speaker 2: and world music. But he also had these incredible other

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Speaker 2: musicians that he collaborated with over the years, like Chick Corea,

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Speaker 2: for example, or Jocko Pastorias and if you follow the

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Speaker 2: sort of family tree of musicians on records by Al

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Speaker 2: Damiola and another one, Alan Holdsworth, who was a big

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Speaker 2: influence on Eddie van Haleen. He had worked with Tony Williams,

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Speaker 2: who had also worked with Miles Davis. So jazz rock

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Speaker 2: is really what got me right around the time I

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Speaker 2: was doing my first professional heavy metal recordings, and it

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Speaker 2: was wanting to understand jazz rock Aldemiola, Tony Williams with

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Speaker 2: Alan Holdsworth, et cetera. That made me want to study

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Speaker 2: actual jazz, jazz that even jazz pure jazz fans or

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Speaker 2: traditional jazz bands could agree is jazz.

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Speaker 3: Okay? So what'd you do next?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So so I well, I was, I guess, sort

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Speaker 2: of a guitar prodigy doing the first Testament records when

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Speaker 2: I was still in my teens and getting a lot

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Speaker 2: of attention for that because you know, in thrash metal, uh,

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Speaker 2: most most of the playing at that time was a

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Speaker 2: little more raw and punk based. If you were a

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Speaker 2: more polished player with a lot of technique, you were

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Speaker 2: expected to play glam metal, you know, something more along

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Speaker 2: the lines of the group's the Sunset Strip fans, for example,

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Speaker 2: who had some great guitar players. Yeah, and in my case,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was able to learn solos by the

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Speaker 2: likes of some of the people I mentioned, Randy Rhodes,

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Speaker 2: our friend Joe Satriani. You know, not that I could

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Speaker 2: play quite like them, but I could, so I could

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Speaker 2: understand it, and I could get it, get a handle

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Speaker 2: on it. When it came to jazz rock, I could

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Speaker 2: not understand what the heck was going on. Some of

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Speaker 2: the al Daimiola stuff made sense because he he st

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Speaker 2: of has his own vocabulary, which isn't really jazz. But

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Speaker 2: you know the music I mentioned before, Miles Davis in

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Speaker 2: the late eighties, mid to late eighties, with guitar players

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Speaker 2: John Schofield, Mike Stern, Robin Ford, I could not figure

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Speaker 2: out what the heck was going on. It's a completely

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Speaker 2: different language. And I went to a few different music

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Speaker 2: teachers in the Bay Area. By this time, Satrianni was

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Speaker 2: already off and running with his career, so I found

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Speaker 2: some music teachers in the Bay Area that were more

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Speaker 2: focused on jazz and jazz fusion, and they explained to me, like, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: all these people you're listening to, they know how to

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Speaker 2: play jazz even though you're hearing them in this jazz

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Speaker 2: rock setting. They can play tunes. They've listened to artists

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Speaker 2: like Charlie Parker and John Coltrane, saxophonists. They've listened to

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Speaker 2: piano players like Bill Evans and McCoy Tyner and all.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's too many essential jazz musicians to name,

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Speaker 2: but basically, you have to get a handle on the

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Speaker 2: vocabulary of the music. You have to appreciate the history

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Speaker 2: of it, you have to learn about all these historical musicians,

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Speaker 2: and you have to obviously, you have to like the music.

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Speaker 2: So by the time I started studying it just to

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Speaker 2: help with my jazz rock interest, I developed a taste

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Speaker 2: for it, and then I got it. I really liked it.

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Speaker 2: But I was never one of these kids that sort

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Speaker 2: of grew up wanting to be a jazz player. It

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Speaker 2: hit me later, which is very unusual.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you keep referencing eighties Miles Davis and all those people.

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Speaker 3: Did you like it from the first time you heard

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Speaker 3: it or did you have to work and become comfortable

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Speaker 3: with it? Was it more of an intellectual appreciation before

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Speaker 3: an emotional appreciation. Tell me about that awakening.

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Speaker 2: Well, the late eighties, Miles Davis was current as I

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Speaker 2: discovered it, which is very different because you know, when

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Speaker 2: I was here, when I heard what you could call

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Speaker 2: straight ahead jazz on the jazz radio station. Yeah, we

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Speaker 2: had a very good jazz radio station in San Francisco

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Speaker 2: areak kja Z, but it was definitely more straight ahead.

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Speaker 2: You didn't hear a lot of stuff like that. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I was young, I was in my teens

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Speaker 2: and very into screaming guitar. So to me, the reason

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Speaker 2: I didn't gravitate towards that type of jazz was it

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Speaker 2: sounded old. Yeah, I saw music from the you know,

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Speaker 2: the forties and fifties and early six It just it

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Speaker 2: felt old. And when I heard Miles Davis for the

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Speaker 2: first time doing late eighties music in the late eighties,

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Speaker 2: it sounded like the future. This is you know, this

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Speaker 2: is this is what's happening now, this is what's going

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Speaker 2: to happen. So it gave me a very different feeling.

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Speaker 2: And also I if I remember right. The first time

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Speaker 2: I discovered it was on a public television station, so

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Speaker 2: they were airing a concert. It was one of these

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Speaker 2: arts programs on PBS or the some East. I think

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Speaker 2: I was on the East Coast at the time, and

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Speaker 2: they were showing this whole concert and I was just

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Speaker 2: knocked out. I didn't know what it was. I remember

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Speaker 2: I wrote down the names of all the musicians afterwards.

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Speaker 2: But I think it really took hearing it, even though

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Speaker 2: I wasn't live in the room with them, but he

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Speaker 2: you know, hearing the music being played live, watching it

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Speaker 2: and just having it be current and not feeling like

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Speaker 2: old music.

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Speaker 3: Okay, a lot of people would hear what we call

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Speaker 3: traditional jazz and from the get go say, I don't

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Speaker 3: get it. I don't like it. It's discordant, it's free form.

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Speaker 3: I don't know where it's going. Is it something where

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Speaker 3: it either clicks for you or not or can you

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Speaker 3: learn to like it?

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Speaker 2: Well? You know, it's it's such a broad category, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's as broad a category, arguably as rock. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So you know you have soft rock, you have punk rock,

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Speaker 2: you have so many types of rock, and it's very

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Speaker 2: similar with jazz. You know, there's what's called smooth jazz,

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Speaker 2: which you know, some would say isn't jazz at all,

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Speaker 2: but some would you know, which is. You might hear

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Speaker 2: at club med vacations, at dentist offices. You have avant

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Speaker 2: garde jazz, which had actually some of which has more

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Speaker 2: in common with punk rock. You know, you have artists

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Speaker 2: very few, but there are actually artists that cover all

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Speaker 2: this ground. John Zorn is an example of somebody like that.

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Speaker 2: You could hear moments of most types of jazz. So

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Speaker 2: I would say, you know, liking getting somebody to like jazz,

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Speaker 2: you know, it really depends on their taste. It depends

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Speaker 2: on the type of jazz. You'd have to point them

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Speaker 2: in the right direction. Somebody who likes funk and R

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Speaker 2: and B music, for example, well they might gravitate more

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Speaker 2: towards the music of early Herbie Hancock certainly seventies Herby Hancock.

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Speaker 2: They probably already know about that. You know, Horace Silver,

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Speaker 2: you know who is a big influence on Steely Dan.

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Speaker 2: Believe it or yeah, listen to Steely Dan. You know,

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Speaker 2: Josie Comes Home. It's almost sampled from a song called

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Speaker 2: Song for My Father by Horace Silver. So you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes making these connections helps somebody who is familiar with

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Speaker 2: some element of rock and roll might relate to something

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Speaker 2: in jazz if you point them in the right direction.

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Speaker 2: And I would just also add that blues is something

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Speaker 2: that definitely, you know, you find all over rock and

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Speaker 2: roll and you find all over jazz and in very

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Speaker 2: different ways.

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Speaker 3: So how would you describe the music of the Alex

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Speaker 3: school mactrio.

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Speaker 2: I would say, you know, my trio is definitely more

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Speaker 2: on the jazz rock side of things, although guitar wise,

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Speaker 2: it has a little more to do with straight ahead guitar.

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Speaker 2: So the guitar is a little has a little more

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Speaker 2: in common with straight ahead jazz. The music is mildly experimental.

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Speaker 2: It's it's definitely more high energy than not, but you

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Speaker 2: know it's it's it's very hot, probably the hardest music

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Speaker 2: to describe as my own music.

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Speaker 3: Is this a labor of love or is the audience

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Speaker 3: growing for the Alex Culnick Trio.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the audience seems to be growing. You know, I

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Speaker 2: started My whole story is strange. As I mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 2: you know, I sort of I took a sabbatical from

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Speaker 2: heavy battle. I didn't even know I was doing this.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't really planned, but I sort of followed my passion,

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Speaker 2: if you will, and it led me to moving to

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Speaker 2: New York City from Berkeley, California. And everybody thought I

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Speaker 2: was crazy. Most people make the move from the East

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Speaker 2: Coast to the West coast. I know you're you're one

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Speaker 2: of those. My parents are academics. They had done the

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Speaker 2: same thing. They had moved from New York to California.

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Speaker 2: I knew many people who would did that. And you

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Speaker 2: have to move back to New York from California was

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Speaker 2: considered a little crazy. So I needed a good excuse.

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Speaker 2: And my excuse was to get a music degree and

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Speaker 2: study at the New School in New York, and which

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Speaker 2: kind of made my parents happy because they hated the

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Speaker 2: fact that I never went to college. And also I

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Speaker 2: was getting to know people in the jazz world at

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Speaker 2: that time. So while at school, I threw this band

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Speaker 2: together just for fun and it started. We started getting

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Speaker 2: gigs and put out a record that was actually it

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Speaker 2: shocked me. It was actually well reviewed by Downbead and

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Speaker 2: jazz Is and some other jazz magazines. A jazz radio promoter,

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Speaker 2: Michael Morrick took a liking to it and got us

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Speaker 2: played on a bunch of jazz radio stations. So I

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Speaker 2: had really initially thought of our first album as like

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Speaker 2: a demo. I'll put this out into the world, we'll

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Speaker 2: see how it goes. But it did well enough to

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Speaker 2: launch a band that's still going a couple decades later.

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Speaker 3: Okay, everybody talks about the economics of the road and

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Speaker 3: how terrible they are. Three guys go on on the road.

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Speaker 3: How many people come to see you? And can you

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Speaker 3: make any money?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, it's it depends on the situation. It depends

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Speaker 2: on where we are in the world for one thing.

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Speaker 2: It's all it's interesting. I think. I think in some

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Speaker 2: ways it's gotten better for the Alex and the trio,

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Speaker 2: partially because I think at this point, uh, it's very

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Speaker 2: clear I'm not doing this as a novelty. I think.

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Speaker 2: You know, when it was first announced after the first album,

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Speaker 2: you know of guitarist for Testaments doing a jazz guitar album. Okay, sure, next,

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Speaker 2: But you know, I've stuck with it all this time,

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Speaker 2: and the offers have gotten better. We've played some very

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Speaker 2: prestigious venues. We just did a tour in March, we

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Speaker 2: played a place in Vienna called Porgy and Best, which

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Speaker 2: is yeah, John Schofield was playing there the same week.

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Speaker 2: I can't play all the venues he plays, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: at least there's some common venues. And these are the

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Speaker 2: types of venues that twenty years ago absolutely not. You know,

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Speaker 2: they either assumed again it was a novelty or they

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Speaker 2: figured I'm some I'm going to be doing some shred act.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do instrumental jazz, but I'm going to

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Speaker 2: bring in Marshall stacks and drums that look like Peter

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Speaker 2: Cris's kit from Kiss. You know. No, actually I have

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Speaker 2: real jazz players. I have great guys, Matt Sebraski and

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Speaker 2: Nathan Peck. The drum kit is small, the bass is

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Speaker 2: an actual jazz bass, although he does some electric now

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Speaker 2: as well, But for a long time it was always

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Speaker 2: with upright base and we always had this acoustic dynamic.

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Speaker 2: So it's taken a while to have the credibility to

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Speaker 2: play more established jazzy places, if you will, but we're

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Speaker 2: doing a lot of those, and yeah, we keep the

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Speaker 2: overhead low. We obviously don't. We don't have a light

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Speaker 2: show when we tour Europe. For example, we have one

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Speaker 2: crew person and he he's amazing. His name's Alex as well,

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Speaker 2: and he drives the van, does the merchandise, helps set

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Speaker 2: everything up. And this friend of ours, he also he

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Speaker 2: works for a lot of different musicians. Right after our

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Speaker 2: tour in March, he went off to tour for Dominic Miller,

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Speaker 2: who plays for guitar for Sting. And when Dominic Miller

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Speaker 2: is not playing with thing, you know, he's he's not

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Speaker 2: doing places like Stink, you know, he's to actually some

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Speaker 2: of the same same places my trios do.

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Speaker 3: So who is coming to an Alex Goulnick trio show.

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Speaker 3: Is a Testament fans or New fans?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a it's a combination. Especially when we

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Speaker 2: play in Europe. We actually have a lot of fans

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Speaker 2: that know me more for the instrumental side of things,

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Speaker 2: and but there's always going to be a portion of

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Speaker 2: fans that know me from Testament and they're curious what

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Speaker 2: is going on. In the US, I'd say it's a

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Speaker 2: little more of a mix. It's more maybe more fifty

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Speaker 2: to fifty. But you often know the Testament fans because

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Speaker 2: you know they show up and teach. If not Testament shirts.

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Speaker 2: They'll show up in a megott Ass or a Slayer.

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Speaker 3: Well, having listened to it, just giving my take. You know,

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Speaker 3: the big breakthrough when I was growing up as the

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Speaker 3: Mahavish New Orchestra, which I bought the first album and

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Speaker 3: I saw them live. John McLaughlan had played with Miles Davis.

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Speaker 3: That was one step a little much for me. Although

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Speaker 3: they had success with the second album. I think with

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Speaker 3: Birds of Fire Weather Report, I actually understood more. But

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Speaker 3: this is all a setup for the listeners. You know,

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Speaker 3: listen to Alex's trio because it's not as far out.

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Speaker 3: If it wasn't sold as jazz, you wouldn't necessarily hear

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Speaker 3: it that way. It's not as out there. Whatever, just

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Speaker 3: switching gears. Tell me about your experience at the New School.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well I'll just piggyback off. You're what you said

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Speaker 2: before about the Mahavish New Orchestra. That's an example of somebody,

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Speaker 2: you know. I could talk about John McLoughlin too many

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Speaker 2: rock and metal guitar players. He's somebody that truly crossed over.

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Speaker 2: So we all we all know him, you know, and

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Speaker 2: uh true a true inspiration as well. So yeah, and

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Speaker 2: he was part of this whole group of players that

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Speaker 2: I think was my gateway to jazz guitar was guys

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Speaker 2: like John McLoughlin, Aldon Yola. And now, interestingly, I get

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Speaker 2: to the New School, this is uh late nineties around,

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Speaker 2: you know, two thousand and Yeah, I'm an older student

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Speaker 2: at that point, I'm like pushing thirty, but I'm ready

294
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Speaker 2: at that At that point, I was hungry, hungry to study,

295
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Speaker 2: and not just the jazz part of it too. I

296
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Speaker 2: also took a couple of courses in philosophy and creative writing.

297
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Speaker 2: A lot of my classmates were just out of high school.

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Speaker 2: Now I wasn't. There were actually a few older students.

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Speaker 2: I was definitely one of the oldest ones. I wasn't

300
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Speaker 2: the oldest one, but the vast majority had gone straight

301
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Speaker 2: from high school college. And yeah, they might have been

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Speaker 2: stars and their jazz program, you know, whatever town they're from,

303
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Speaker 2: so you had a lot of there was energy I

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Speaker 2: picked up on, like I was surprised, a lot of

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Speaker 2: unhappy energy because I think a lot of these kids,

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Speaker 2: you know, they'd been the jazz or you know, the

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Speaker 2: virtuoso champion and their little music scene in their town

308
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Speaker 2: and then they get here, they get to the big city,

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Speaker 2: this music program where you just you know, you have

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Speaker 2: like the best of the best, and you know, I

311
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Speaker 2: think a lot of hearts were breaking. I just I

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Speaker 2: picked up on it, and I was in this interesting

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Speaker 2: place because I wasn't really affected by it. I was

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Speaker 2: sort of disillusioned having been a professional on the rock

315
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Speaker 2: side of things, and I was just ready to learn.

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Speaker 2: I just I was so excited to study with all

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Speaker 2: these great players. You had legendary teachers at this school,

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Speaker 2: guys like you, Reggie Workman, who was a bassist who

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Speaker 2: played with John Coltrane, seeciul McBee. Yeah, yeah, there's like

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Speaker 2: too many to name, but a lot of these are

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Speaker 2: very well known names for jazz insiders. But you just

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Speaker 2: you have access to these people and you could talk

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Speaker 2: to them all the time, and you're put into ensembles

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Speaker 2: with other players, and you're you suddenly have this very

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Speaker 2: structured learning and I I never had that. I did

326
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Speaker 2: have guitar lessons with Satriani for a couple of years,

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Speaker 2: which was the most serious musician I'd ever studied with,

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Speaker 2: but that that was very guitar focused. And when I

329
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Speaker 2: got to the New school, it was really about music.

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Speaker 2: Guitarists weren't even the majority of the musicians there. There

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Speaker 2: were a lot of piano players and saxophonists, and I

332
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Speaker 2: was so excited to just be around that and just

333
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Speaker 2: be in this environment where it's not just about guitar

334
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 2: based and vocals and you know, other instruments matter, and

335
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: studying the history of the music, learning about what's called

336
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: ear training, where you actually focus on listening and not

337
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 2: just playing music, but being able to tell one note

338
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Speaker 2: from another, how far away is it, what type of

339
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: chord is this, just by hearing it. All this great stuff.

340
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Speaker 2: So I was really excited. I did see a lot

341
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 2: of you know, unhappy young players. I tried not to

342
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 2: get bummed out by that. I saw a lot of

343
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 2: people drop out because there were many players there that

344
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Speaker 2: just wanted to go there, network and drop out. I

345
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 2: was determined to get my education. So for me, it

346
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: was like the perfect thing. I met the you know,

347
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Speaker 2: these great musicians there I'm still friends with to this day,

348
00:25:53,560 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: launched my band from there, got my education. But the yeah,

349
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: the one thing that was odd about it, in addition

350
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 2: to yeah, the unhappiness I could sense from some of

351
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: the players that were kind of struggling. The younger players,

352
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Speaker 2: the artists we're talking about John McLaughlin, h Jaco Pastorius,

353
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Speaker 2: Weather Report, they really weren't talked about very much. They

354
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: were at that time there was such an emphasis on

355
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Speaker 2: straight ahead jazz, and there was this sense that it's

356
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Speaker 2: time to you know, to bring back, you know, the

357
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: real jazz. There had been this movement called the the

358
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: Young Lions. You know, Wynton Marsalis had been a part

359
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 2: of that, and he tended to have a little bit

360
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Speaker 2: more conservative jazz views. He wasn't a big fan of fusion.

361
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: He was championed by the jazz writer Stanley Crouch that

362
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: was a great writer and had great taste in music,

363
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: but absolutely hated electric music and jazz rock. So at

364
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 2: the time, the School I think was very much under

365
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: the effects of that. You know, it was almost like

366
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 2: the alternative music movement and rock suddenly, you know, this

367
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: big change. I've heard it's very different now. Now it's

368
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 2: a lot more open. You've had players come out of

369
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: from that period like Robert Glasberg, and he was actually

370
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: at the New School at the same time I was.

371
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: He's kind of one of the leading lights in jazz music.

372
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: These days, and he collaborates with hip hop artists. You know,

373
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,719
Speaker 2: he's he's very well known for playing with Kendrick Lamart

374
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: and apparently so like somebody like Glassberg being a star

375
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 2: student at the News Classic, that's had a big influence.

376
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: So it's less conservative than it was. But at the

377
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 2: time I was there, there was this sense of it

378
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: being just being very conservative, and even guitar was a

379
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: little bit frowned upon. But I was at an age

380
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 2: where I wasn't affected by the negativity.

381
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Speaker 3: Okay, you're going to college, You've already had a good

382
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: are you financially comfortable enough from Testament in order to

383
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 3: you know, pay for college and take the time off

384
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 3: from your regular career.

385
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: Well, I had been very conservative with the earnings from Testament. Now,

386
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: Testament had never had hits. We never sort of crossed

387
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: the threshold of sort of winning awards.

388
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 3: You know.

389
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: The Bay Area music scene for heavy metal it was fun.

390
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: I mean they always compare different scenes. You know, the

391
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: British invasion you have the Beatles and the Stones, and

392
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 2: I had a bunch of smaller bands like Kermit's Hermits

393
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: for example. You know, and see at the Seattle scene,

394
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: you had several huge bands, and the Bay Area music scene,

395
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: you really had one huge band metality, and the rest

396
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: of the bands were more like the bands that you know,

397
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 2: insiders know about, but they weren't household names, so the

398
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: band never made the kind of money where you just

399
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: felt like you could retire. But at that point I

400
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: had put enough away. I felt like, Okay, I certainly

401
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: have enough to move to go back to school. Now,

402
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: full disclosure, I had academic parents that desperately wanted me

403
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: to go to college, you know, insist did on helping

404
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: out for one of my years. But for the first

405
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: part of going college, I've done it all myself. I'd

406
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: actually taken care of all my basic credits at a

407
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: community college in California, so actually I only had to

408
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: go to the new school for like a half a term,

409
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: just a couple of years, and yeah, financially I was okay,

410
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: I had enough to you know, I knew I could

411
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: take a few years and do whatever I want. But

412
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 2: after a few years, you know, of course, then you

413
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: have to start thinking, Okay, what am I going to

414
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: do here? And I was always able to teach, And

415
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: there was a music school called the American Institute of

416
00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: guitar that was just had nothing to do with college journey,

417
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 2: just an informal music school that that had a few

418
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: guitar teachers and they were all professional musicians. And I

419
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: got in there and that became a job. And then

420
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: I got the strangest call in my life from someone

421
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: named David Krebs. I'm sure.

422
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: I certainly know crib.

423
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: So David, David Krebs calls me. Yo, actually his assistant

424
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: calls and I I call, I call back, and I'm

425
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: on hold waiting for he comes on. Doesn't even say hell,

426
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: It just starts telling me he he heard this guitar

427
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: playing on the he and he's he's managing this concert.

428
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: And I asked, who was that guitar play and and

429
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: and are you that guitar player? It was very funny,

430
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: and I'm you know, he's a friend too, I've were.

431
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 2: I saw him a couple of years ago at an

432
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 2: event where the Scorpions were being honored and yeah, one

433
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 2: of the great music industry personalities.

434
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 3: For those who don't know, you know, he broke Erosmith,

435
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 3: AC DC Nugent. But continue your narrative.

436
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: Yes, So David was managing a group called the Trans

437
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: Hibernian Orchestra. It was to be this traveling rock concert

438
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: come kind of with elements of a Broadway show. I

439
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: didn't really understand what it was. So it turned out

440
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 2: that the producer composer, Paul O'Neill was working with David,

441
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: who had worked for liber Krebs. And I had known

442
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 2: Paul because during the nineties, in between moving to New

443
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: York and leaving Testament, I got called to fill in

444
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: and with a group, Sabotage, that Paul was producing. And

445
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: it Sabotage is guitarist was a great, great guitarist, Chris Oliva,

446
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: and sadly he had passed away and the band needed

447
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 2: somebody quickly to do solos on the record. And initially

448
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: I said no, And I'd been a fan of the band,

449
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: and Testament had toured with the band, That's how we

450
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: knew each other. But I said no because, you know,

451
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: Testament had it had gotten very difficult towards the end,

452
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 2: you know, classic VH one behind the music stuff, you know,

453
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: we weren't getting along, felt like a toxic environment. So

454
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: I was also getting more and more into jazz guitar.

455
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: The last thing I was going to do was join

456
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 2: another band just because of those reasons. But the band

457
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: gave me a call personally, and you know, John Oliva

458
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: was Chris's brother, and he said, you know, I, Chris

459
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: would I think I want you to play guitar on

460
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: this album. I think you're the only one he would

461
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 2: want to play on this record. So how do you

462
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: say no to that? So I recorded for Sabotage. I

463
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 2: did a bunch of shows and that was how I

464
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: got to know Paul O'Neal. Well, fast forward a few years,

465
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: they've Sabotage had turned into this had become the nucleus

466
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: for the Trans Hyberine Orchestra, this traveling show with some

467
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 2: of this similar music but brought with Broadway singers and

468
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 2: dancers and a light show and everything. And yeah, I

469
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: got this this call from David Krebs and they were

470
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 2: auditioning people, but yeah, we just want you to do

471
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: it if you want to, like, you don't even have

472
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 2: have to audition. And it was funny because it wasn't

473
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 2: really what I saw doing. I kind of I was

474
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 2: so focused on developing as an instrumentalist and not thinking

475
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: about performing, and here was a show that's all about

476
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 2: performing and literally had pyrotechnics, but you know what, I

477
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 2: needed a job and I thought, Okay, you know what,

478
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: the experience will probably be good. And the next thing

479
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: you know, I this is while I'm still at the

480
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: New School. By the way, I was able to take

481
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: a month off and do homework assignments while I was

482
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: on this tour. And it was still theaters at the time.

483
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: We've played the Beacon. We played the theaters in Cleveland

484
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: and Pittsburgh for multiple nights, and.

485
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 3: That was.

486
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: Almost the beginning of TSO. I think they had done

487
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: like one tour before this, and it ended up turning

488
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: into this arena concert that is still going to this day.

489
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 2: Paul is no longer with us, May he rest in peace.

490
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: David stopped working with them at some point, but it's

491
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: still a big hit holiday concert. You know, if you

492
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 2: talk to anybody about TSO or transfer of your archers,

493
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: they know somebody if they don't know it themselves, they

494
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: have a family member that loves to go every year

495
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: and it's like this holiday tradition. And I was part

496
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: of this tour for nine years. At the end of

497
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: the year that that was what I did.

498
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 3: Let's go back to the beginning, so you grew up

499
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 3: in Berkeley.

500
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was born and raised in Berkeley, California, and

501
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: it's a very straight, I guess, a strange place to

502
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: grow up. It's funny because now in the news, you know,

503
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: people talk about Portland and San Francisco as these lake

504
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: looney places where anything goes. But you know when I

505
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: when I grew up in Berkeley that that felt so normal.

506
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 2: It felt like, you know, the way they described Portland today.

507
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 2: I went to a school named after the head of

508
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 2: the Nation of Islam, Malcolm X Elementary.

509
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 3: I know it sounds like was that a public school?

510
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: This is a public This is the Berkeley Public school system.

511
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: We had a park nearby, they called it Ho Chi

512
00:37:55,080 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: Min Park in honor of our nemesis. And in Vietnam War,

513
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: of course, we had People's Park and uh, you know,

514
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 2: literal like characters everywhere, even some of them are well known,

515
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 2: you know, like Wavy Gravy for example. You know, he's

516
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: a pretty famous person, part of the Mary Pranksters, and

517
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: you'd see him around and it just wasn't unusual. And

518
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: you know, when you're a child growing up, you know

519
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 2: your city, that's your whole world. You know, they there's

520
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 2: that famous New Yorker cartoon about how New Yorkers see

521
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 2: the world, didn't they right? But you know, that applied

522
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 2: to us growing up in Berkeley, and we saw the

523
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: whole world through you know, it was te We have

524
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: Telegraph Avenue and then San Pablo Avenue and yeah, and

525
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: of course as you get older, you realize, oh, okay,

526
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: there's more to the world than just this little corner

527
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: where we are. But growing up, you know, from the

528
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 2: time time I was, when I was in single digits,

529
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 2: I assumed, oh, the whole world must be like this,

530
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: all these strange characters around and you know, and of

531
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 2: course I found I found out that that is not

532
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: the case.

533
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 3: How many kids were in the family.

534
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,479
Speaker 2: Two So I was the youngest of two. My brother

535
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: was seven years older.

536
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 3: And what path did your brother follow?

537
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 2: So my brother got into music first, and in a

538
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 2: way he was kind of a gateway to the local

539
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: music scene in Berkeley. Now he was in his teens

540
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 2: at the time new wave music was popular, so he was, Yeah,

541
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: he was playing in bands that were influenced by groups

542
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: like The Cars and the Knack and stuff like that.

543
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: But you know, my brother, he in a way, he

544
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: was the opposite of what I became. I became this

545
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 2: hyper serious person that that's studied music NonStop and you know,

546
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: spent hours with the guitar at all times. And he

547
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 2: was always looking for gimmicks and ways to make it

548
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: as easy as possible, you know, and he he had

549
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 2: even you know, it's funny, and he thought it would

550
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 2: be so simple to just sign a record deal and

551
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: everything will just fall into place and you become this

552
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: big rock star. And even you know, even being seven

553
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: years younger, I realized, Okay, I think maybe he's take

554
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: you know, taking too many hits off the bong. You know,

555
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: he's uh.

556
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 3: You know.

557
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: He eventually got into teaching English is the second language,

558
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 2: which he still death. But he also when he's a

559
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,919
Speaker 2: real Berkeley type, he spent a number of years living

560
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 2: in like ashram's and yoga centers. And by the time

561
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 2: I had reached adolescence, you know, my parents were determined

562
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 2: I was not going to turn out like him. I

563
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: was going to go to college. I was not going

564
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 2: to be this flaky musician. I was going to be

565
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: a serious person. But of course all that did was

566
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: make me be more serious about being a musician.

567
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 3: What kind of kid. Were you growing up? Were you isolated?

568
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 3: Were you a sports person? You were good in school?

569
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 2: Definitely isolated, not a sports person and not good in school.

570
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 2: Now I thought I was smart. I've since come to learn, Okay,

571
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: I'm actually quite intelligent. But I didn't realize that. I thought.

572
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 2: I thought I had little intelligence just because I had

573
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: very poor communication skills. And there, you know, words like

574
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: introverted weren't really tossed around back and knowing what I

575
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: know now, Yes, I was just very introverted and happy

576
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 2: doing my own thing, and uh, not a big people person.

577
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: And it is a bit ironic that I chose a

578
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 2: career where I'm on a stage in front of lots

579
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 2: of people, because that, yeah, that would seem to go

580
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: against it. But yeah, of course I later heard that

581
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: many shy children or even shy adults end up being performers.

582
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 2: And as far as sports, I just never got the neck.

583
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: I never had the interest that I never saw what

584
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: the big deal was, and I was never good at it.

585
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 3: Are you still introverted today?

586
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: Not like I was.

587
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 2: I'm certainly better at communicating than I was. I. I

588
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: love being on a stage because then I feel like

589
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: I have all the control, you know, I could. I

590
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 2: can decide what's talked about on the stage. I can

591
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: make the joke you have. If you're seated and it's

592
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 2: my show, you you have to listen to me. But

593
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: but if I walk into a party and it's a

594
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: room full of strangers, yeah, I'm I'm panicked. I wouldn't

595
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: call it panic. I'm exaggerating, of course, But uh, I've

596
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 2: never understood people who can just instantly make friends at

597
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 2: a party and be the so called life of the party.

598
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: That's definitely not me. And it's funny. With sports, I

599
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 2: just I always felt it was this thing everybody was

600
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: into and I just couldn't get into it. I never

601
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 2: had the talent to throw a baseball or football like

602
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: everybody else did. But I'm almost having corrective experience in

603
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: recent years. I was just invited to play for the

604
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 2: Cleveland Browns at a pregame event on NFL Opening Day.

605
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 3: How does that even happen?

606
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: That happens because they partner with the Rock and Roll

607
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: Hall of Fame every year in Cleveland, and they like

608
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: to do rock and roll events. They've had Zach Wilde,

609
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: They've had Neil Sean, and this year they were going

610
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: to have orianthe and she had to cancel. I would

611
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: say at the last minute, but close enough to the

612
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: last minute that there was a search for somebody that

613
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: could jump in and play guitar and do what needed

614
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: to be done. And I happened to get the call

615
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: and it was It was amazing, It went, it went great.

616
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 2: I had a great time. I have a Cleveland Browns

617
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 2: jersey with my name on it. I watched the game

618
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 2: afterwards with these friends of mine who set it up

619
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: and had just had a great time. And actually a

620
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 2: couple of years before that, I played the anthem for

621
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: the Chicago Wolves.

622
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 3: How did that come there?

623
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: Happen? And then how did that happened? Because I was

624
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: playing for an all star group of musical all stars.

625
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 2: It's called Metal Allegiance, and it's like a collective of musicians.

626
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 2: We usually play and then around the Nam show. In fact,

627
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: we're playing this year at the House of Blues Ana

628
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 2: I'm January twenty second, and we always have it's always

629
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 2: with different people. So this Chicago show, it was the

630
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 2: drummer for masted On bron Daylor and Mark Mani the founder,

631
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: and myself, Bobby Blitz from Overkill you know, it's always

632
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 2: a mashup. We played in Chicago and it was right

633
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 2: I think it was right around hall Leen too, if

634
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 2: I remember. And somebody who works in the Bills office

635
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 2: is got word of it and they were looking for

636
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: somebody to do the anthem, and you know, they they've

637
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: had singers, but I think they've been talking about bringing

638
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: in an instrumentalist. And somebody who is this guy that

639
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: works for the team who's also a fan of music,

640
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: reached out it saw that we were going to be

641
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: in town and said, would you like to play the

642
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 2: national anthem? I said sure. So I love doing stuff

643
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 2: like that, and every time it's it's sort of it's

644
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 2: this window into sports fandom, like I get it. I'm

645
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: at the game, I'm feeling the passion from everybody. So

646
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: somehow growing up I never had it. But when I

647
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 2: do these events where I play music at the game,

648
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 2: so I have a great time.

649
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 3: Okay, your brother was into music, who was in music?

650
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,919
Speaker 3: Where your parents big music bands? Where they playing music

651
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 3: in the house.

652
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 2: Not much, not much at all. I've talked about this before.

653
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 2: You know, some kids grow up hearing music played in

654
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 2: the house or they're singing around a piano or you

655
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 2: know there was There really wasn't much of that at all.

656
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 2: There was a lot of public affairs, television, uh, the McNeil,

657
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: Lair Report, Washington Weekend Review. So you know, you know

658
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: what these are. I probably have to explain them to

659
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 2: you know, some folks of a younger generation.

660
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 3: How did you end up taking music lessons and what

661
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 3: were your first lessons.

662
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 2: I got into music because the music that was occasionally

663
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 2: played around the house was good, So I have to

664
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: give my prayers credit for that. They like the Beatles

665
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,959
Speaker 2: a lot, and I'm told that I used to sing

666
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: Beatles songs when I was too young to remember some

667
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: of those songs. Of course, you know they're perfect for

668
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: a kid. Yellow Submarine that could be a children's song,

669
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 2: Comes the Sun that could be a children's son. So

670
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 2: I used to sing those songs. And by the time

671
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: I was sort of nine or ten years old, I

672
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 2: think I was just looking for something exciting to do.

673
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 2: Even though I had tried piano lessons and the teacher

674
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 2: I really wasn't very nurturing. I think I needed more

675
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: attention as a student, and it just it didn't work

676
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 2: out with piano. I thought I wasn't gonna be good

677
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: at music, and then I started begging for guitar lessons

678
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: when I discovered Kiss. And the way I discovered Kiss

679
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: was on the schoolyard there was I was very tired

680
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 2: of hearing about baseball cards. All my friends, you know,

681
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,919
Speaker 2: would trade baseball cards. And one day I these friends

682
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 2: were calling me over, I have to look at these

683
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: baseball car and you know, and I resisted, No, I

684
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: don't know, No, You're gonna love this look and it

685
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 2: was Kiss cards. And that moment was like it was

686
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 2: life changing. And you know, these guys, they looked straight

687
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 2: out of comic book and they have guitars and Ace,

688
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 2: may he rest in peace. We just lost Ace. You know,

689
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: he's got this guitar. Smoke is coming out of the guitar.

690
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: So suddenly guitar got very interesting. And then the first

691
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: record that I had wanted to buy on my own

692
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 2: was a Kiss record. And I didn't know about compilations

693
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 2: or Greatest Hiss records at the time, but it was

694
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 2: called Double Platinum and it was a compilation, but it

695
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 2: had some great songs and I genuinely loved the music.

696
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 2: And between Kisses music and imagery, I had to learn guitar,

697
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 2: So I started studying with.

698
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 3: There's a lot of a lot of steps there. Hey,

699
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 3: you don't have a guitar, so you gotta You know,

700
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 3: the lessons can't happen without a guitar, So how does

701
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 3: it really go down? You're begging your parents right right.

702
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 2: So at this point, my brother had already played, he

703
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 2: was already starting to play in local bands. Uh, he

704
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 2: was switching from guitar to bass. But for a while

705
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 2: he did have a guitar, and occasionally I could play

706
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 2: one of his guitars. But ye know it was a

707
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 2: typical older versus little brother. Yeah, guitar. He didn't want

708
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: me to touch his guitar. So eventually they we found

709
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 2: a cheap guitar at a garage sale, and it was

710
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 2: like the complete op of my brother. Because my brother

711
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: had gone to my parents and I begged for a

712
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 2: less Paul. He needed a less Paul guitar, which he

713
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 2: eventually traded for a bass. I was not gonna be

714
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 2: so lucky. They Yeah, they said, okay, yeah, we're gonna

715
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 2: get you this classical guitar and if you stick with that,

716
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 2: maybe one day you'll get an electric guitar. So yeah,

717
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 2: I had a really difficult to play acoustic guitar nylon strings,

718
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 2: but I stuck with it, and I think it in

719
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 2: retrospect I might have helped that I had to work

720
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 2: for it, and I had to put in all this

721
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 2: extra effort. And by the time I got a good guitar,

722
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 2: I was probably fourteen years old, and I'd been bagging

723
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 2: groceries at a local supermarket and saved up, and I

724
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 2: saved up enough to buy my own last bom. So

725
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: I got this sense of working hard at it and

726
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 2: also just really kind of earning my own keep and

727
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,760
Speaker 2: earning what I got. Okay, not having things handed.

728
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 3: How old are you then? How do you start taking

729
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 3: lessons with a nylon string guitar.

730
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 2: So I'm about ten years old when I have the

731
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: nylon string guitar. And there was a local guitar teacher.

732
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 2: His name was Gary Lapoue and a real Berkeley type.

733
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 2: I used to play at anti nuclear weapons rallies, so

734
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 2: I had songs about saving the whales. But he actually

735
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 2: ended up going on to be a pretty respected children's

736
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 2: recording artist, So I need to look him up, but

737
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 2: his I think he's probably still doing it. Gary Lepoe,

738
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 2: and he was great. He was a great teacher. When

739
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 2: I went to him, I was very determined. I didn't

740
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 2: want to have the same experience that I had had

741
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 2: with piano, where I just didn't practice enough and I

742
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 2: lost interest. The teacher didn't want to teach me. So

743
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 2: I worked really hard my first week or so, and

744
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 2: he was very complimentary. I couldn't believe how fast I

745
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: was picking it up and taking to the chords. And

746
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:42,359
Speaker 2: he was very good at making connections between different types

747
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 2: of music. So, for example, there was a fifties resurgence

748
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 2: going on around this time. This is around nineteen eighty,

749
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 2: so not only am I into kiss, but I really

750
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 2: liked fifties rock. I was hearing fifties rock. Happy Days

751
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,240
Speaker 2: was the number one show. There was a film called

752
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 2: American Hot Wax that had Jay Leno and fran Dresser,

753
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: and it was not the best acted film. It was

754
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 2: kind of not surprising that they both ended up on

755
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 2: TV movies, But with all due respect, it was a

756
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: fun film and the best part about it was it

757
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 2: starred all these fifties artists as themselves. It was the

758
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 2: story about Alan Free, so it's kind of educational in

759
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 2: a Way too, and Judge Jerry Lee Lewis is in

760
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 2: the movie Screaming. Jay Hawkins is in this movie. And

761
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,720
Speaker 2: the one who stole the show for me was Chuck Barry.

762
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,760
Speaker 2: So when I went to Gary, my first guitar teacher,

763
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 2: I talked about the music I loved, and part of

764
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 2: it was Kiss, but also I really liked this music

765
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 2: from this film and especially Chuck Berry. And that was

766
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 2: perfect because this guy, he didn't know Kiss songs, but

767
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 2: he certainly knew about Chuck Berry, and he made connections

768
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 2: between like what Chuck Berry was doing and how he

769
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 2: influenced the Beatles and the Stones. The Beatles even covered

770
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 2: Chuck Berry songs. I didn't even know that at the time,

771
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 2: and it was very educational, and I learned those basic

772
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 2: chuck Berry hits, you know, Johnny be Good, roll over Beethoven.

773
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 2: To this day, those intros that Chuck Berry played on

774
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 2: those songs really get me excited. I still yeah, they

775
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 2: haven't lost any of their magic. But Gary's best quality,

776
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 2: I think, was just making that connection. And when I

777
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 2: started talking to him about ac DC, same thing, He's like, well, yeah,

778
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: here's how the blues riff influenced this AC DC tune.

779
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 2: Here's how I would influence this Kiss tune, and it

780
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 2: just really gave me a good understanding about connections with

781
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 2: fifties rock and the hard rock that I was then

782
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 2: getting into, like Kiss and Athies.

783
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 3: Okay, you start with this guy, you start with an

784
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 3: acoustic guitar, what's the next step.

785
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 2: So the next step, I guess A couple of years later,

786
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 2: by the time I played guitar for about two years,

787
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: we're talking eighty two. At this time, you know, Ozzie

788
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 2: has emerged as an artist and I didn't know anything

789
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 2: about him. I yeah, I hadn't grown up with Black Sabbath.

790
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 2: I wasn't a band my brother had been into. But

791
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 2: kids in my class, you know, the seventh grade, they're

792
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 2: all talking about Ozzie, and somebody who knew that I

793
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 2: played guitar told me, I have to hear this guitarist

794
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 2: on the Aussie record. And this is the time, too

795
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 2: win not as many kids played guitar. Today, there are

796
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 2: more kids than you can count that have that played

797
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 2: guitar and play guitar well, and they most of them

798
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 2: have Instagram pages. But at this time it wasn't as

799
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 2: common to start guitar at a young age. Most kids

800
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 2: I knew started in their early teens, and I had

801
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 2: already been playing for a few years. So I was told,

802
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 2: you know, listen to Ozzy Osbourne and this amazing guitarist

803
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 2: Randy Roads. And I think that was partly what got

804
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: me interested in wanting to play guitar solos. But I also,

805
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 2: around the same time, discovered van Halen. The van Halen

806
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 2: had been out for a few years, but he hadn't

807
00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 2: really reached my radar. And then the same kids that

808
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 2: were into Ozzie were into van Halen, and then they

809
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 2: played the first van Halen record and that was it.

810
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 2: I was off to the races. And I know many

811
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 2: guitar players today tell the same story. Yeah, they they

812
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 2: heard eruption for the first time on a record or

813
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 2: a cassette and it was just life change, Like, oh,

814
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 2: I didn't know what guitar could do. That that's exciting.

815
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 2: And up until then I thought about being a singer guitarist.

816
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: I never cared that much about having an electric guitar.

817
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 2: I knew I would get one eventually, but you know,

818
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 2: playing that type of guitar was never a thought. And

819
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 2: then it all changed. The day I heard that first

820
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 2: Van Haalen record, as it did for so many.

821
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 3: Okay, so how did you learn and how'd you get

822
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 3: the les Paul? I mean, what was the transition?

823
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I had to break it to Gary, my

824
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 2: guitar teacher, that I need to I need to find

825
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 2: some teachers that can yeah respect, you know, because he

826
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 2: taught me so much, and it was very difficult. It

827
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 2: was sad, you know. It was almost like a fork

828
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 2: in the road, you know, because I liked him so

829
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 2: much and he was so nurturing and such a nice

830
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 2: guy and very talented at what he did. But I

831
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 2: had to make this decision. I need to find somebody

832
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: who can play.

833
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 3: Like these guys.

834
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 2: And as it turned out. I mentioned my older brother

835
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 2: was in the music scene and he tended to play

836
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 2: more me music that was could be described as new

837
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: wave SKA, not really hard rock. But he had some

838
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 2: friends that did play rock guitar and one of his

839
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 2: friends was a player. His name was Danny Gill, and

840
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:23,439
Speaker 2: he was playing in hard rock band. He kept trying

841
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 2: to get my brother to join his band. My brother

842
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 2: was interested in that kind of music, but Danny was

843
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 2: really getting good fast, you know, and he was the

844
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 2: only guy that I knew in the Berkeley music scene

845
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: in that sort of had a grip on Van Hamlinton's

846
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 2: and I saw him play. We were I remember a

847
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 2: couple of times at home just or at there were

848
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 2: gatherings or at local parties when people would pass around

849
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 2: a guitar, This guy, Danny Gill would would get the

850
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 2: guitar and he would do these licks. He learned from eruption,

851
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 2: and so I could see how it was done and

852
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 2: that was shocking, right, Wow, that's how you do that.

853
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 2: And I ended up asking him for lessons, so I

854
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 2: studied with him for a while. He later became a

855
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 2: teacher at m I Musicians Institute down in Hollywood. He

856
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 2: lives in Sweden today. He actually married a Swede, but

857
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 2: he's a full time teacher. So but he ended up

858
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 2: being my next teacher, and he was a very good teacher.

859
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 2: And around the time I studied with him, that was

860
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 2: around the time I got my first electric guitar. This

861
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 2: lest Paul. I think in the meantime I had played it.

862
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 2: There was a cheap guitar that my brother acquired that

863
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 2: I played a little bit. It was so cheap. I

864
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 2: really needed a good guitar, so I I got the

865
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 2: less Paul. I started startying with Danny. But within a

866
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 2: year or so, it felt like I was able to

867
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 2: learn some of the Van Halen stuff on my own.

868
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: And I remember there was one lesson and I say this,

869
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 2: you know, with all respect to Danny, but I I

870
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 2: was showing him how this song was. It was a

871
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 2: song called Little Guitars off of nineteen eighty four, and yes,

872
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 2: I figured out how to do the riff and he

873
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 2: he looks at me, how do you do that? I'm like, wait, oh,

874
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 2: you should be paying me by the hour. So I

875
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 2: started realize, Okay, I wonder who taught Dan. Did you

876
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 2: know did Danny take lessons? And I knew Danny had

877
01:03:56,120 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 2: studied with this music teacher. He taught all all the

878
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 2: best players, all the top guitar players in the area.

879
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 2: They talked about this guy, the very mysterious person. All

880
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 2: I knew about him was that he was Italian and

881
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 2: he's from New York and he's very serious. Like, if

882
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 2: you go and study with this guy, you have to

883
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 2: do your lessons and you have to practice hard otherwise

884
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 2: he will he will fire you. Yeah, And of course

885
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 2: that turned out to be Joe Satrianni.

886
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 3: So you go to see Joe for lessons, what's that

887
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 3: experience like?

888
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a funny experience the first time because

889
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 2: Joe had a waiting list, so he taught in a

890
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 2: little guitar store and you go to the guitar store

891
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 2: or you call up you say you want lessons, and

892
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 2: then you'd have to wait. You have to wait like

893
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 2: a period of weeks, sometimes months. And one day I

894
01:04:56,160 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 2: got a call and Joe had an opening and I scheduled.

895
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 2: I remember I scheduled this lesson, but it was the

896
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:14,120
Speaker 2: same day as this political rally. And my mother, I think,

897
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 2: you know, she's sort of been this repressed political activist,

898
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 2: you know, to this day, she's like an MSNBC news junkie.

899
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 2: And I think she'd always wanted to be involved with politics,

900
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 2: but it never did. And so she's insisted I come

901
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 2: to this rally, and I think she thought I would

902
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 2: take to politics and political activism. And the rally was

903
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 2: for a presidential candidate named Gary Hart, and all this

904
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 2: did it completely turned me off politics. First of all,

905
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 2: the guy showed up like hours late, and suddenly I realized,

906
01:05:54,960 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to be late for this lesson. I've been

907
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 2: want on the waiting west for this, this teacher that

908
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 2: it's really important to me and my mother. You know.

909
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 2: It was arguing with me, you know, no, this is important,

910
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 2: and I remember running off going, you know, no, this

911
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 2: is important. And I was a few minutes late. I

912
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 2: but Joe was very understanding. It never happened again, and

913
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:26,480
Speaker 2: it just caused me to be even more punctual and

914
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 2: serious in my lessons with Joe. And of course, as

915
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:32,200
Speaker 2: we all know, Gary Hart ends up caught in a

916
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 2: sex scandal and kicked out of public office. The whole

917
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 2: situation was just very metaphoric.

918
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 3: But didn't Gary Hart become the head of the new school? Ah?

919
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 2: Did he that? When I was there? I should look

920
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 2: into that.

921
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:52,919
Speaker 3: Maybe it's another politician.

922
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 2: There was a senator whose name escaped me.

923
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 3: That was the head, Gary Hurt. So, okay, you're taking

924
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 3: lessons from Joe. How does that go?

925
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? So that taking lessons with Joe was that next level.

926
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 2: I felt like I unlocked a new level of music education.

927
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 2: And of course, you know, knowing what we know now,

928
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 2: he would go on to be this very important good

929
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 2: figure in the world of guitar. We didn't know that

930
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 2: in a way, it was a cautionary tale about the

931
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 2: music business, the fact that somebody this talented is teaching

932
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:40,919
Speaker 2: guitar lessons of the little back room behind a guitar shop.

933
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 2: But it was amazing. It was just suddenly, you know,

934
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 2: I really understand unstood what serious music lessons were. And

935
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 2: guitar really wasn't thought of as a serious instrument at

936
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 2: that time. Like if you're a serious musician, okay, you

937
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 2: there's there were serious teachers for violin, for piano, electric guitar,

938
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 2: not so much at that time. But he was somebody

939
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 2: like that. It was like going to a classical violinist

940
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 2: or pianist that had regimens, and you know, practice was

941
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:35,679
Speaker 2: incredibly important, discipline was really important, and he really didn't

942
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 2: want he didn't want his time wasted, and he made

943
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 2: that very clear. In fact, I was recently speaking to

944
01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 2: a friend of mine, Mark Mark DeVito. He's a guy

945
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 2: who did a lot of artwork for various bands, my band,

946
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:59,679
Speaker 2: He's did some work for Metallica, he did Motorhead's last

947
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 2: album cover, went on to be a full time artist,

948
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 2: but at one time he wanted to be a guitarist

949
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:11,240
Speaker 2: and we were talking recently and he never told me

950
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 2: the story before, but he actually went to Joe for

951
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 2: lessons and yo, Joe was very honest with him. Yeah,

952
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 2: he said, do you have any other hobbies?

953
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 3: So when do you start forming bands?

954
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:31,560
Speaker 2: Well, the whole time I was with Joe, you know,

955
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 2: like ages fourteen fifteen, I am trying to form a band.

956
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:39,720
Speaker 2: I want to form a band, but again, to use

957
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:45,600
Speaker 2: that word introvert, I very introverted. I don't have the

958
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:50,679
Speaker 2: quality too, you know. I certainly didn't have leadership skill

959
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 2: for whatever musical skill I had for my age, which

960
01:09:56,200 --> 01:10:01,560
Speaker 2: was great, Yeah, I didn't have that know how to

961
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 2: just round people up pick musicians. And there also weren't

962
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 2: musicians my age, very there weren't very many. Like I

963
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,640
Speaker 2: explained earlier, it was a different time. So yeah, I

964
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:17,640
Speaker 2: tried jamming with a couple guys in my school and

965
01:10:18,240 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 2: it just didn't really go anywhere. And around this time

966
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 2: I am going to concerts. There's a whole local scene happening,

967
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 2: and I particularly enjoy with the music that is later

968
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:38,720
Speaker 2: known as Thrash Meult. It was funny because at the

969
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 2: time I never thought about playing that music. I was

970
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 2: really focused on Van Halen Randy rose Evy Meltinstein has

971
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 2: come along by then, and he was my new hero.

972
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,640
Speaker 2: But I loved going to concerts by these bands. And

973
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 2: you know, Exodus was one slayer who did I saw

974
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 2: their first time? Answered Metallica, I think was sort of

975
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 2: off to the races at that point. They'd already released

976
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:09,599
Speaker 2: an album and I think we're working on their second record.

977
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 2: But under them, there was this whole scene going on,

978
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:17,639
Speaker 2: and I remember thinking, you know, if I could join

979
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 2: one of these local bands that's already playing, then I

980
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:25,240
Speaker 2: wouldn't have to go through this trying to search for

981
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 2: guys my age to play with because it's not working out.

982
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:33,560
Speaker 2: And lo and behold, I hear about a band that

983
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:38,880
Speaker 2: needs a guitar player. And it's this band that at

984
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 2: the time is called Legacy. It's the band that would

985
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 2: go on to be called Testament. And it all happened,

986
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 2: you know, in a snap. At this point. I think

987
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 2: when I first met them, I was fifteen. By the

988
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:56,280
Speaker 2: time I did my first gig with them, I was sixteen,

989
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:01,640
Speaker 2: and by the time I was eighteen, I was on

990
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 2: the East Coast recording my first album with the band.

991
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 3: Okay, that's the framework, but there's a lot of steps.

992
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 3: Were these guys your age or older? Did they accept you?

993
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,680
Speaker 3: How did you write the material? What about gigs? How

994
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:19,960
Speaker 3: did it all play out?

995
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the band was founded by the other guitarist.

996
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 2: His name is Eric Peterson. They were all older, they'd

997
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 2: been out of school a number of years. They were

998
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:44,679
Speaker 2: all in their early twenties at this point, and somehow

999
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:47,600
Speaker 2: it was interesting. Eric was kind of shy too, but

1000
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:53,639
Speaker 2: he was good at getting gigs, and yeah, we all

1001
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 2: went to the same shows, even though we were all

1002
01:12:57,160 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 2: from different places. You know, the Bay Area has all

1003
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 2: these little pockets. Yeah, you've got the East Bay, the

1004
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:10,960
Speaker 2: far East Bay, like Dublin, Pleasanton. I was in Berkeley

1005
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:14,960
Speaker 2: where a lot of the clubs were, so in a way,

1006
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,519
Speaker 2: I was lucky because it was very easy for me

1007
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 2: to and my friends. We could just take the bus

1008
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:24,080
Speaker 2: downtown and we would go to the Keystone Berkeley, which

1009
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 2: was the big venue at the time, or you know,

1010
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 2: go across the Bay. We had the Stone in San Francisco,

1011
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 2: and Testament, which was then called Legacy, was already playing

1012
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 2: these clubs. They supported Slayer. I think they supported Megadeth

1013
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:46,680
Speaker 2: on one of their first shows when Megadeth was a

1014
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 2: brand new band, and Mustaine had just been kicked out

1015
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 2: of Metallica and uh the Yeah. By the time I

1016
01:13:57,080 --> 01:13:59,759
Speaker 2: got asked to join the band, they were already gigging.

1017
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 2: They already had these shows. There was a new venue

1018
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:08,920
Speaker 2: called Ruthie's In, which became sort of an epicenter for

1019
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 2: this type of music. Pretty Much all the thrash metal

1020
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:17,000
Speaker 2: bands you've heard of played there, except Metallica, who was

1021
01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 2: already on their way. They actually did play there once,

1022
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 2: but it was like an unannounced fun gig. And my

1023
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 2: very first show was that Ruthie's In and it was

1024
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 2: just a whirlwind. Suddenly, you know, one minute, I am

1025
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:42,960
Speaker 2: kind of a frustrated high school student, yeah, wishing I

1026
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:44,680
Speaker 2: was in a band. The next thing, you know, I

1027
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:49,360
Speaker 2: have shows. I mean this, I'm rehearsing a couple times

1028
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 2: a week, and you know, my parents were not happy

1029
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:56,439
Speaker 2: about it, but I think at that point they knew

1030
01:14:56,479 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 2: there's there's no stopping me. And that was Yeah, that

1031
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:02,280
Speaker 2: was how it all started.

1032
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 3: Well, when did you realize it was starting to click?

1033
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 2: Well, the band had about probably I don't know, half

1034
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:19,920
Speaker 2: a dozen songs, like almost enough songs for a set

1035
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 2: plus some covers. I had some musical ideas. I had

1036
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:29,400
Speaker 2: songs and parts that I'd been working on. Now, my

1037
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:37,640
Speaker 2: parts were much more like Ozzie Deo Rainbow, you know,

1038
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 2: Vey the stuff I was listening to at that time,

1039
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:46,600
Speaker 2: much slower than this. So yeah, the first thing that

1040
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:49,040
Speaker 2: became clear is, Okay, we're gonna have to speed up

1041
01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:56,600
Speaker 2: all these parts like double speed, and uh yeah, we

1042
01:15:56,800 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 2: ended up it ended up working out. We put a

1043
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:06,320
Speaker 2: lot of my parts with parts that Eric had, and well,

1044
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 2: you know, within a year we had you know, the

1045
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 2: first almost half a dozen songs that the band had,

1046
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:17,599
Speaker 2: which were you know, much much simpler. They were mostly

1047
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 2: like fast songs in one key, not a lot of harmony,

1048
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:24,439
Speaker 2: not a lot of melody. But I was bringing in

1049
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 2: different elements. So I sort of taught Eric how to harmonize,

1050
01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 2: how to play scales together. Let's get out of you know,

1051
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 2: the low key on guitar as all guitars know as

1052
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:40,760
Speaker 2: e but there, Yeah, we don't have to be stuck there,

1053
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:44,280
Speaker 2: we can we could take apart and move it somewhere else.

1054
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:47,800
Speaker 2: So I and by that point i'd been with I

1055
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,880
Speaker 2: had enough of my Satriani lessons that you know, I

1056
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:56,360
Speaker 2: was getting pretty good at harmony and melody, and uh yeah,

1057
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:59,720
Speaker 2: I'd say within a year and a half or so,

1058
01:16:59,880 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 2: we had enough material to do the first record. Now,

1059
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:07,080
Speaker 2: of course, there was some major drama that happened with

1060
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:12,840
Speaker 2: the lineup, which I can explain later. We'll explain now, Okay,

1061
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 2: So the lineup at that time included a singer. His

1062
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:24,839
Speaker 2: name's Steve Stuza, and he was like the drill sergeant

1063
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:27,680
Speaker 2: of the band. It was almost I didn't even know

1064
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 2: Eric had started the band because I thought this it

1065
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 2: must be his band, because this guy ran it like

1066
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:36,840
Speaker 2: he ran the show, and it was all Later I

1067
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:39,920
Speaker 2: thought it was kind of a source of contention with them,

1068
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:47,160
Speaker 2: but very type a personality. And during this time, the

1069
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:53,880
Speaker 2: biggest band around is Exodus, and every it's expected that

1070
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 2: Exodus is going to follow in the footsteps of Metallica,

1071
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 2: largely because Exodus was arted by Kirk Hamick before he

1072
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 2: was coached by Metallic, so we all look up to Exodus.

1073
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 2: You know, the outside of Metallica, the biggest concerts, the

1074
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:17,599
Speaker 2: biggest thrash metal shows are by Exodus, and lo and behold,

1075
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:22,400
Speaker 2: Exodus decides to fire their singer Paul bailoff. May he

1076
01:18:22,560 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 2: rest in peace and take our singer. Yeah. So I'm

1077
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:31,840
Speaker 2: only in this band for a year. I'm still in

1078
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 2: high school, and suddenly I'm embroiled in this like major

1079
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:44,600
Speaker 2: band drama. So Steve joins Exodus and we need a

1080
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:54,240
Speaker 2: singer right quickly. And another funny thing that had happened was, Yeah,

1081
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 2: my my exasperated father. You know, he he gave up

1082
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 2: on me going to law school and whatever the hell

1083
01:19:02,960 --> 01:19:05,400
Speaker 2: he wanted me to do. But he said, the one

1084
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:08,600
Speaker 2: thing I'm going to insist on, which and he was

1085
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 2: right about this, is that you hire a lawyer. So

1086
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:21,400
Speaker 2: he had had a former teaching assistant that ended up

1087
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 2: working in entertainment law. And the teaching assistants name was

1088
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:32,080
Speaker 2: Elliot Kahan. Elliott Kahn had a very interesting history because

1089
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:36,400
Speaker 2: he had been a member of Shauna not while at

1090
01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:41,719
Speaker 2: Columbia and had actually done Woodstock as a member of Shauna.

1091
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:46,320
Speaker 2: Not met Hendrix, you know, so he had this incredible backstory.

1092
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:53,720
Speaker 2: And around this time, you know, he's basically doing doing

1093
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:58,479
Speaker 2: law and but you know, helping out musicians in the

1094
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:01,920
Speaker 2: San Francisco Bay area. So I got to know Elliott

1095
01:20:01,960 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 2: because my dad, Elliott became the band's manager. Elliott had

1096
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 2: some connection with John and Marcia's Uzula, I forget what

1097
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:18,080
Speaker 2: it was, and knew that they had been involved with

1098
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:24,840
Speaker 2: Metallica on their first record. Knew that they were they

1099
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:28,080
Speaker 2: were signing metal bands, they were looking for metal bands.

1100
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 2: So Elliott Cohn, my friend of my father, which is

1101
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 2: so ironic, ends up sending our demo tape to the

1102
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:43,960
Speaker 2: Uzulas and this Zula's liked what they heard, and we

1103
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:48,600
Speaker 2: were already in negotiations to at least do a showcase

1104
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:53,880
Speaker 2: for John and Marsha's Zula. And then shortly before that happens,

1105
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:57,800
Speaker 2: we find out Exodus has fired their singer. They're talking

1106
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:01,200
Speaker 2: to Capitol Records. They take our singer, and we need

1107
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:08,240
Speaker 2: a singer, so I the singer we got is his

1108
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:12,160
Speaker 2: name is Chuck Billy, and he's this six foot four

1109
01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:19,680
Speaker 2: Native American towering presence, and he had been in a

1110
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:22,800
Speaker 2: band that was more of a glam band, but it

1111
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 2: was with that great guitarist who I used to take

1112
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:29,320
Speaker 2: lessons from Danny Gill, and that was how we knew

1113
01:21:29,320 --> 01:21:32,840
Speaker 2: about him, and we weren't sure he would be able

1114
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:36,720
Speaker 2: to sing heavy music, you know, this fat but he

1115
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:38,800
Speaker 2: you know, he learned, he was willing to learn, and

1116
01:21:40,040 --> 01:21:43,000
Speaker 2: he became the singer. And this all happened really fast.

1117
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:47,240
Speaker 2: We did a new demo with Chuck. The Zazulas liked

1118
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:51,240
Speaker 2: it and they came out and we showcased for them.

1119
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:57,880
Speaker 2: The day that we showcased for the Zazulas, Cliff Burton

1120
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:00,960
Speaker 2: from Metallica passed away in a bus accident. So it

1121
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:06,880
Speaker 2: ended up being this very somber, sad day, But it

1122
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:10,759
Speaker 2: was the day we showcased for the Suzulas and signed

1123
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:12,040
Speaker 2: our first record.

1124
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:18,640
Speaker 3: So you must have been on cloud nine, yes and no.

1125
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 2: It was like, in a way, it was very metaphoric

1126
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:27,439
Speaker 2: because in some ways it was such a rollercoaster rat

1127
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 2: in some ways, Okay, things are great, they're looking up.

1128
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:35,760
Speaker 2: You know, we have the you know, the people that

1129
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 2: introduced the Metallica to the world are interested in us,

1130
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 2: and they're also managing Anthrax, who's having a moment at

1131
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:48,639
Speaker 2: that time. So we were part of this whole thing.

1132
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:54,040
Speaker 2: But at the same time, just yeah, the whirlwind of

1133
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 2: losing a singer, finding a singer, having a successful showcase.

1134
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:02,320
Speaker 2: But it's on this very sad day that the world

1135
01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 2: lost the great Cliff Burton. So it was definitely a

1136
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:14,160
Speaker 2: period of growing up fast and recognizing yes, you know,

1137
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:17,880
Speaker 2: there's going to be these very positive moments, but there's

1138
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:22,759
Speaker 2: going to be some difficult sad moments too, and sometimes

1139
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 2: all within a very short period of time.

1140
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:35,760
Speaker 3: So what was your experience with Testamon? You have a

1141
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:40,839
Speaker 3: record deal, Megaport is distributed by Atlantic. This music is happening,

1142
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:42,960
Speaker 3: So what was your world like?

1143
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:46,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, all of a sudden, you know, we're not

1144
01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 2: just doing gigs at Ruthie's Inn, and you know the

1145
01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:54,800
Speaker 2: zone and the local Bay area clubs.

1146
01:23:54,479 --> 01:23:55,720
Speaker 3: But we.

1147
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:02,400
Speaker 2: Miszulas really wanted to get us out of our comfort zone,

1148
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:06,120
Speaker 2: the bubble of the San Francisco area. So they sent

1149
01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:12,080
Speaker 2: us to southern California and we did a show I

1150
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:18,600
Speaker 2: think it was Corona, California, and opening for Anthrax, and

1151
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 2: they sent us to a club called Lamore's in Brooklyn,

1152
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:31,959
Speaker 2: and ye know, Lamors is pretty legendary. And at Lamore's

1153
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:37,720
Speaker 2: we opened up for Slayer, which, on the one hand,

1154
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 2: that's yeah, it's a big thrill. We were all big

1155
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:44,479
Speaker 2: fans of Slayer. On the other hand, the New York

1156
01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:47,840
Speaker 2: fans of Slayer were notorious. You know, they were like

1157
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:53,160
Speaker 2: Mets fans, you know, just if they don't like you,

1158
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:58,160
Speaker 2: they they're not shy about it. But everybody told us,

1159
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:02,360
Speaker 2: if you can survive opening for Slayer at Lamores in Brooklyn,

1160
01:25:02,600 --> 01:25:07,639
Speaker 2: you're on your way. And we got flown to New York.

1161
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:12,400
Speaker 2: We did the show with Slayer. We were booed, we

1162
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:17,599
Speaker 2: were subjected to Slayer chants, but it started dying down

1163
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:20,840
Speaker 2: midway through, and by the end, I think we'd won

1164
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:24,360
Speaker 2: over enough people, so it really felt like, Okay, things

1165
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:29,680
Speaker 2: are happening now. And right around the same time, we

1166
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 2: went to upstate New York. There was a producer up

1167
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:42,439
Speaker 2: there named Alex Pirialis, and he had recorded Anthrax and

1168
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:46,800
Speaker 2: a bunch of other albums for Mega Force, and they

1169
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,479
Speaker 2: had a relationship already, so he wanted to take us

1170
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:56,280
Speaker 2: under his wing. And at the same time, a lot

1171
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:59,120
Speaker 2: of my friends were going off to college. I was

1172
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:04,760
Speaker 2: on a plane heading to Ithaca, New York, and uh,

1173
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:08,640
Speaker 2: you know, being in a pro recording studio for the

1174
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:11,639
Speaker 2: first time. We've done a couple of demos at this point,

1175
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:16,960
Speaker 2: but yeah, this this was the next level and the

1176
01:26:17,040 --> 01:26:20,400
Speaker 2: whole going through the whole process of you know, the

1177
01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 2: calendar dates. Here's when you're going to do your drum tracks,

1178
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:26,360
Speaker 2: Here's when you're going to do your guitar tracks. Here's

1179
01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:29,719
Speaker 2: the budget here. We want to come in under budget.

1180
01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:32,640
Speaker 2: We want to come in ahead of time. You know,

1181
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 2: I just learned this crash course learning how this is done,

1182
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 2: and it was an incredible on the job experience, on

1183
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:43,639
Speaker 2: the job training.

1184
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:49,559
Speaker 3: So you make these albums with Testament. How many dates

1185
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:53,920
Speaker 3: were you playing a year? And did you think that

1186
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:57,640
Speaker 3: you were just a minute from becoming Metallica? What was

1187
01:26:57,720 --> 01:26:58,599
Speaker 3: going through your heads?

1188
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:04,640
Speaker 2: Well, knowing it's funny knowing what I know now, I

1189
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:09,639
Speaker 2: can I could see that, you know, Metallica really had

1190
01:27:12,320 --> 01:27:15,920
Speaker 2: they had some extra smarts to them. And of course

1191
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:18,439
Speaker 2: I know the guys and now it's not a surprise,

1192
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:25,639
Speaker 2: but they yeah, kind of really learn, you know new.

1193
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:29,400
Speaker 2: I think it's not that they knew exactly how big

1194
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:32,200
Speaker 2: they would get, but I think they knew how to

1195
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:37,000
Speaker 2: they were with all that. They were very in some

1196
01:27:37,120 --> 01:27:43,400
Speaker 2: ways self produced, and obviously being with Q Prime was

1197
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:45,559
Speaker 2: a big help. But I think that you know, Lars

1198
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:47,800
Speaker 2: makes a lot of decisions too. It's like a real

1199
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:52,320
Speaker 2: great partnership. And I think with us, I think Testament

1200
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:56,880
Speaker 2: we were so green. We were really just started looking

1201
01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:59,800
Speaker 2: for guidance, so I don't think we knew what would

1202
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:05,440
Speaker 2: have We just ended up on a tour with Anthrax

1203
01:28:07,439 --> 01:28:11,880
Speaker 2: and across the United States. We ended up on another

1204
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:17,680
Speaker 2: tour with Overkilled. These are both Mega Forest bands. We

1205
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 2: did our very first tour in Europe, and yeah, Mega

1206
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:31,360
Speaker 2: Death at that time is starting to reach a higher level.

1207
01:28:32,920 --> 01:28:36,720
Speaker 2: So yeah, we were sort of part of this echosystem

1208
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:40,599
Speaker 2: of all of all these bands, but it was never

1209
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:47,639
Speaker 2: clear how big we could get, and Metallica just always

1210
01:28:47,680 --> 01:28:49,519
Speaker 2: felt like they were in a category of their own,

1211
01:28:49,720 --> 01:28:52,840
Speaker 2: so I kind of never never thought we would quite

1212
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:56,640
Speaker 2: catch up to them, but it did feel like they

1213
01:28:56,720 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 2: were making it more acceptable to do music that at

1214
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:07,479
Speaker 2: the time was considered very uncommercial. This was not glam metal,

1215
01:29:07,560 --> 01:29:09,519
Speaker 2: this was not Sunset strip.

1216
01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:14,800
Speaker 3: No, well, did you how many dates were you doing

1217
01:29:14,880 --> 01:29:18,479
Speaker 3: a year and were you just grinding it out or

1218
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:21,400
Speaker 3: you say this is fantastic, this is my life. What

1219
01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:22,640
Speaker 3: was it like emotionally?

1220
01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 2: Oh it was uh, yeah, it was mixed, you know,

1221
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:33,280
Speaker 2: because you do have these illusions that, yeah, things are

1222
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 2: going to fall into place and you're going to be

1223
01:29:37,400 --> 01:29:39,880
Speaker 2: much more comfortable than you are you know, we did

1224
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:47,880
Speaker 2: that first tour in a van and you know, definitely

1225
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 2: not enough sleep. There was a van and a rider truck.

1226
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:59,800
Speaker 2: Now at this time Anthrax had graduated to a bus,

1227
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:03,679
Speaker 2: so we could at least sort of see our future. Okay,

1228
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:08,880
Speaker 2: one day we aspired to the bus and we did

1229
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:13,800
Speaker 2: get the bus. I think like midway through touring for

1230
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:21,200
Speaker 2: the second record. But yeah, emotionally it was I definitely

1231
01:30:21,240 --> 01:30:27,360
Speaker 2: went through some mixed emotions because I felt like, on

1232
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:29,960
Speaker 2: the one hand, yeah, this is kind of what I've

1233
01:30:29,960 --> 01:30:34,560
Speaker 2: always wanted. I'm touring and I'm playing guitar, getting some

1234
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:41,639
Speaker 2: nice attention for my guitar playing. At that time, technical

1235
01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 2: playing wasn't really a thing in that style of music.

1236
01:30:46,439 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 2: It was more limited to glam metal and for the

1237
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:54,639
Speaker 2: world of you know, sort of thrash or speed metal

1238
01:30:54,720 --> 01:30:56,960
Speaker 2: as it was called. I was getting some nice attention,

1239
01:30:57,080 --> 01:31:03,519
Speaker 2: but I also felt like at the shows, you know,

1240
01:31:04,120 --> 01:31:06,439
Speaker 2: they didn't really know how to mix the music yet,

1241
01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:11,000
Speaker 2: and the equipment has come a long way. It's much

1242
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:16,479
Speaker 2: better now. At that time, you're playing through amplifiers that

1243
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:21,439
Speaker 2: you know, they're designed for music like fog Hat Foreigner,

1244
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:25,599
Speaker 2: the whole crunchy heavy metal sound. It's still a very

1245
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:28,800
Speaker 2: new thing. It's very hard to get that sound, and

1246
01:31:29,200 --> 01:31:32,559
Speaker 2: it often didn't sound good live. The PA systems could

1247
01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:35,880
Speaker 2: not handle it. They weren't designed for that music, so

1248
01:31:36,080 --> 01:31:40,280
Speaker 2: it just sometimes it sounded like this just wall with noise.

1249
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:46,320
Speaker 2: And yes, the crowds were excited and their crowdsurfing and washing,

1250
01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:49,679
Speaker 2: but I felt like, Okay, I really kind of wish

1251
01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:53,280
Speaker 2: there was more listening, and I wish there was more

1252
01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:58,160
Speaker 2: attention to the music itself. And maybe this contributed to

1253
01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:03,120
Speaker 2: me getting so into sort of yeah, virtuoso instrumental music

1254
01:32:03,439 --> 01:32:05,439
Speaker 2: the way I did. A short time later.

1255
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:12,760
Speaker 3: You ultimately leave Testament. Do you leave Testament to use

1256
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 3: the cliche for musical differences or are you saying I

1257
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:20,840
Speaker 3: just can't do this anymore. It's a grind, it's not

1258
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 3: becoming any bigger. What were your motivations?

1259
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:31,439
Speaker 2: Okay, it's a little above. It's not that I didn't

1260
01:32:31,479 --> 01:32:35,000
Speaker 2: want to do it anymore, but I was definitely disillusioned.

1261
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:41,040
Speaker 2: I felt like, yeah, we in between that first tour

1262
01:32:41,120 --> 01:32:44,920
Speaker 2: I was just describing and the time I left, we

1263
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:49,680
Speaker 2: definitely had reached some milestones. You know, we had some

1264
01:32:49,800 --> 01:32:52,280
Speaker 2: good moments. We went to Japan, for the first time,

1265
01:32:53,240 --> 01:32:58,040
Speaker 2: and there the sound quality was terrific. The Japanese really

1266
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:03,120
Speaker 2: knew how to design PA systems. The crowd was a

1267
01:33:03,240 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 2: more of a listening crowd. Uh so I that that

1268
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:13,360
Speaker 2: was very satisfying. But also we had our first arena

1269
01:33:13,439 --> 01:33:20,439
Speaker 2: support tours, so we had supported judas priests and from

1270
01:33:20,479 --> 01:33:22,800
Speaker 2: the time I was in you know, ninth grade, all

1271
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:25,519
Speaker 2: the way through high school, just you know, they were

1272
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:29,360
Speaker 2: heroes and they seemed like giants to me. But at

1273
01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:34,400
Speaker 2: this time they were having a hard time. Suddenly the

1274
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:37,120
Speaker 2: arenas weren't selling as well as they should and it

1275
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:41,040
Speaker 2: was kind of right out of a spinal tap. And

1276
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:44,320
Speaker 2: then on top of that, we're the first group on

1277
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:48,200
Speaker 2: the arena tour, and so you've also got Megadeth, and

1278
01:33:48,360 --> 01:33:50,640
Speaker 2: it's on the one hand, it's terrific. Wow. I got

1279
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:55,760
Speaker 2: to play the Oakland Colisseum, which is where I've seen

1280
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:59,679
Speaker 2: some of my favorite concerts, and that show was great.

1281
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:03,280
Speaker 2: But then we would do other shows where we're playing

1282
01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:07,120
Speaker 2: people are walking into the arena and it's it's not

1283
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:10,320
Speaker 2: how you imagine. You know, there are some groups that

1284
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:13,320
Speaker 2: are lucky to just have a big break and suddenly

1285
01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:15,679
Speaker 2: they're they're they're playing in front of an arena crowd.

1286
01:34:15,800 --> 01:34:20,720
Speaker 2: But yeah, that wasn't the case. So there was some

1287
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:25,240
Speaker 2: disillusion there. As I mentioned much earlier, the band really

1288
01:34:25,360 --> 01:34:32,880
Speaker 2: wasn't getting along. And also, yeah, I was having, you know,

1289
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:37,599
Speaker 2: musical interests that were different. I realized I could stick

1290
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:41,000
Speaker 2: around and sort of just be the thrash metal guy.

1291
01:34:42,479 --> 01:34:48,200
Speaker 2: But I've been already been developing as a musician. You know.

1292
01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:52,519
Speaker 2: When we did our third record, we didn't go to

1293
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:55,360
Speaker 2: the East Coast. We stayed at home and recorded at

1294
01:34:55,439 --> 01:35:00,240
Speaker 2: Fantasy Studios, which was home to Fantasy Records. And at

1295
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:04,760
Speaker 2: that time, Fantasy Records was buying up all these defunct

1296
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:09,439
Speaker 2: jazz labels like Riverside and Impulse, and I was listening

1297
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:13,760
Speaker 2: to jazz albums being remastered. It was just an amazing experience.

1298
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:18,000
Speaker 2: I heard a live John Coltrane record being remastered. I

1299
01:35:18,040 --> 01:35:20,960
Speaker 2: thought he was in the room. It sounded that good.

1300
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:27,160
Speaker 2: So that we really sort of contributed to my jazz interests,

1301
01:35:27,280 --> 01:35:31,639
Speaker 2: and Fantasy cooked me up with a whole box load

1302
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:37,679
Speaker 2: of jazz albums that I got for nothing were dollar

1303
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:44,360
Speaker 2: and and then so I was studying jazz. And then

1304
01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:49,960
Speaker 2: a couple of years later, by nineteen ninety two, the

1305
01:35:50,080 --> 01:35:53,160
Speaker 2: band took a break. We had been going non stop too,

1306
01:35:53,560 --> 01:35:56,680
Speaker 2: I should mention like it was practically an album a year,

1307
01:35:57,120 --> 01:36:01,600
Speaker 2: followed by this touring cycle where everybody was exhausted. The

1308
01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:04,360
Speaker 2: one time we did some time, the one time we

1309
01:36:04,439 --> 01:36:10,160
Speaker 2: did take a break was in nineteen ninety one, and

1310
01:36:11,560 --> 01:36:15,720
Speaker 2: everybody just yeah, took vacations, didn't want to think about music.

1311
01:36:17,000 --> 01:36:21,160
Speaker 2: I auditioned for Stuart Ham, who was this great virtuoso

1312
01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 2: bass player who played on Joe Satriani's records, had toured

1313
01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:30,639
Speaker 2: with Joe and Stu heard something in me and hired

1314
01:36:30,680 --> 01:36:34,040
Speaker 2: me to tour with him. So that was my first

1315
01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:37,639
Speaker 2: taste of the world of music outside of Heavy Melt.

1316
01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:41,280
Speaker 2: And there I'm playing to people who have no idea

1317
01:36:41,320 --> 01:36:44,360
Speaker 2: who I am, but they're listening and it was just

1318
01:36:45,240 --> 01:36:50,760
Speaker 2: very diverse music. So get to get back to your question. Yeah,

1319
01:36:50,800 --> 01:36:54,799
Speaker 2: by the time I leave the band, yeah, everybody's exhausted,

1320
01:36:54,840 --> 01:37:00,479
Speaker 2: they're not getting along. I'm exploring, playing instrumental music, exploring

1321
01:37:00,840 --> 01:37:03,519
Speaker 2: jazz music, and it was time.

1322
01:37:05,280 --> 01:37:10,360
Speaker 3: Okay, how do you end up getting back together with Testament?

1323
01:37:11,960 --> 01:37:15,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. That was not on the

1324
01:37:15,439 --> 01:37:18,600
Speaker 2: bingo card. I don't think that was on. You know,

1325
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:23,559
Speaker 2: I don't get anybody could have predicted that. But by

1326
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:28,800
Speaker 2: the mid two thousands, you know, I was playing with

1327
01:37:28,920 --> 01:37:35,240
Speaker 2: my trio, I was doing transpian orchestra part of the year,

1328
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:41,720
Speaker 2: I was doing recording sessions, so I I found a

1329
01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:47,759
Speaker 2: place as a full time musician. But I always thought

1330
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:52,400
Speaker 2: about stepping back into heavy metal. I got curious about it.

1331
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 2: I think I had been away from it for a

1332
01:37:54,240 --> 01:38:02,920
Speaker 2: while and it started to interesting to me again. At

1333
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:07,880
Speaker 2: this point too, you also had some changes in the

1334
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:14,639
Speaker 2: music and the culture. The whole alternative period had died down.

1335
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:19,800
Speaker 2: The anti guitar solo fever had died down. You know

1336
01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 2: that that was another thing too. You know, the way

1337
01:38:23,360 --> 01:38:25,680
Speaker 2: music was going in the nineties, it just seemed like

1338
01:38:27,200 --> 01:38:32,439
Speaker 2: rock was going through this phase out with the solo

1339
01:38:32,760 --> 01:38:36,320
Speaker 2: out with virtuosity. Okay, what am I doing? This is

1340
01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:40,559
Speaker 2: what I do. So but by the two thousands, okay,

1341
01:38:40,680 --> 01:38:43,800
Speaker 2: it's starting to come back. The guitar solo was coming back.

1342
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 2: The oz Fest was happening at that time. So now

1343
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:54,040
Speaker 2: there's newer bands, and some of the bands had grown

1344
01:38:54,120 --> 01:38:58,919
Speaker 2: up listening to Testament, and I was coming into contact

1345
01:38:59,000 --> 01:39:01,400
Speaker 2: with some of these bands. One of those bands is

1346
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:05,439
Speaker 2: band called Lamb of God, and I got to know

1347
01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:08,360
Speaker 2: the guys. They invited me to do a guest solo

1348
01:39:08,600 --> 01:39:11,760
Speaker 2: on their record, a record called Ashes of the Wig,

1349
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:15,360
Speaker 2: and I thought, okay, that would be interesting. At that point,

1350
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:18,519
Speaker 2: I had not done heavy metal. I'm mostly, you know,

1351
01:39:18,600 --> 01:39:23,719
Speaker 2: playing these jazz box guitars, and okay, let me step

1352
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 2: back in there and see you. And it felt great.

1353
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:31,240
Speaker 2: And then I went to see Lamb of God play

1354
01:39:31,320 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 2: at one of the OZ fests, and I met other

1355
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:41,920
Speaker 2: new bands, bands like Slipknot and Hate Breed, all these

1356
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:45,080
Speaker 2: newer bands, and they they recognized me, and they they

1357
01:39:46,040 --> 01:39:50,760
Speaker 2: were very complimentary, and so suddenly I was feeling this

1358
01:39:50,880 --> 01:39:57,479
Speaker 2: appreciation from this newer wave of heavy metal guys, and

1359
01:39:57,600 --> 01:40:00,519
Speaker 2: I just started to think it might be fun to

1360
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:03,439
Speaker 2: do a metal project. You know, maybe I could get

1361
01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:07,400
Speaker 2: some of these guys and put together some new band.

1362
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:13,120
Speaker 2: And just around that time, I hear from the guys

1363
01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:15,800
Speaker 2: in Testament, the original guys that are still there. That's

1364
01:40:16,640 --> 01:40:20,920
Speaker 2: Chuck the singer and Eric Peterson, the guitarist. They'd been

1365
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:24,360
Speaker 2: through a revolving door. By that time, they'd been through

1366
01:40:24,439 --> 01:40:29,800
Speaker 2: about more drummers than Spinal tap other guitar and they

1367
01:40:29,840 --> 01:40:33,200
Speaker 2: were tired of it. They were actually ready to retire

1368
01:40:33,560 --> 01:40:38,880
Speaker 2: the band, and they we worked out. We had a

1369
01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:43,360
Speaker 2: few business disagreements that got worked out, like here, here's

1370
01:40:43,400 --> 01:40:46,240
Speaker 2: that thing you should have gotten paid for that you

1371
01:40:46,320 --> 01:40:50,280
Speaker 2: didn't get sorry about that. That was okay, and we're

1372
01:40:50,320 --> 01:40:54,360
Speaker 2: friends again. And they just, you know, they wanted to

1373
01:40:54,479 --> 01:40:57,559
Speaker 2: do some shows with the old lineup, and they actually

1374
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:01,840
Speaker 2: had a couple offers come in because at this time

1375
01:41:01,960 --> 01:41:06,400
Speaker 2: European festivals are really popping. You know, you have Vakin

1376
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:15,160
Speaker 2: in Germany, Sweden Rock. It's this whole other world where

1377
01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:19,360
Speaker 2: every country is trying to outdo with each other with

1378
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:24,160
Speaker 2: a big hard rock and heavy metal festival and some

1379
01:41:24,479 --> 01:41:28,560
Speaker 2: so these promoters were wanted us to play as the

1380
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:34,280
Speaker 2: original lineup, and we took We agreed and did a

1381
01:41:34,360 --> 01:41:39,240
Speaker 2: few shows. We were like weekend Warriors for the mid

1382
01:41:39,320 --> 01:41:42,680
Speaker 2: two thousands, and we would go to Europe play a

1383
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:44,679
Speaker 2: few shows here and there, and then the offers kept

1384
01:41:44,760 --> 01:41:48,639
Speaker 2: coming in and the people said, oh, this is great.

1385
01:41:48,760 --> 01:41:50,800
Speaker 2: You know, why don't you guys do a full tour,

1386
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:54,519
Speaker 2: why don't you do a record? And we were a

1387
01:41:54,600 --> 01:41:58,160
Speaker 2: bit resistant, and then one day the band gets an

1388
01:41:58,200 --> 01:42:02,800
Speaker 2: offer to tour with motor Head, Judas Priest and Heaven

1389
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:07,439
Speaker 2: and Hell, which is Black Sabbath with Ronnie James Dia,

1390
01:42:07,800 --> 01:42:11,720
Speaker 2: one of his last go around on the condition that

1391
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:15,200
Speaker 2: there is a new album. You can't tour without an album,

1392
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:19,599
Speaker 2: so we go into the studio. We recorded an album

1393
01:42:19,720 --> 01:42:23,000
Speaker 2: called The Formation of Damnation. We end up doing this

1394
01:42:23,160 --> 01:42:26,240
Speaker 2: tour with Motorhead, Judas Priests, Heaven and Hell. It was

1395
01:42:26,280 --> 01:42:30,200
Speaker 2: called the Metal Masters Tour, and next thing you know,

1396
01:42:30,520 --> 01:42:37,040
Speaker 2: we're back. Offers kept coming in. Another tour that followed

1397
01:42:37,240 --> 01:42:44,840
Speaker 2: was with Slayer and Megadeth, and that was called the

1398
01:42:45,200 --> 01:42:51,400
Speaker 2: American Carnage Tour. In fact, the funny side note, Rachel

1399
01:42:51,560 --> 01:42:55,599
Speaker 2: Maddow talked about this tour when Trump did his whole

1400
01:42:56,320 --> 01:43:01,280
Speaker 2: American Carnage theme at the first inauguration, And if you

1401
01:43:01,320 --> 01:43:03,800
Speaker 2: watch this episode of Madows, she actually holds up a

1402
01:43:03,880 --> 01:43:08,639
Speaker 2: t shirt from this tour. Up until now, American Carnage

1403
01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:15,519
Speaker 2: meant this tour with Slayer, Meganeth and Testament. Today it

1404
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:22,400
Speaker 2: means something. It was hilarious, but anyway, yeah, since then, yeah,

1405
01:43:22,439 --> 01:43:25,880
Speaker 2: it's just it's kept up. The band had this resurgence

1406
01:43:26,960 --> 01:43:31,920
Speaker 2: and we seem to be doing better. We're Yeah, we've

1407
01:43:32,320 --> 01:43:38,160
Speaker 2: definitely learned from mistakes of the past. The new album

1408
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:44,040
Speaker 2: came out Parabellum, it's charting, it's actually getting good reviews.

1409
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:47,400
Speaker 2: We just we're in the Guardian, so a lot of

1410
01:43:48,320 --> 01:43:50,960
Speaker 2: the types of outlets that would never have covered the

1411
01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:55,200
Speaker 2: band before paying attention and it all yeah, it all

1412
01:43:55,479 --> 01:43:58,280
Speaker 2: really started with that tour in two thousand and eight,

1413
01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:00,080
Speaker 2: the Metal Mask.

1414
01:44:00,040 --> 01:44:04,799
Speaker 3: To So how much of your time is spent on Testament?

1415
01:44:06,160 --> 01:44:09,439
Speaker 2: Well, we're also at the point again the you know,

1416
01:44:09,640 --> 01:44:12,040
Speaker 2: they were in their twenties when I joined the band,

1417
01:44:12,439 --> 01:44:14,960
Speaker 2: and so they're a few years older, which works out

1418
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:22,679
Speaker 2: well because they don't want to do the band full time.

1419
01:44:22,840 --> 01:44:25,760
Speaker 2: I mean, we are doing it full time because we

1420
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:28,880
Speaker 2: you know, we're in an era where you need to

1421
01:44:29,000 --> 01:44:33,519
Speaker 2: tour much more than you used to due to the

1422
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:39,040
Speaker 2: depletion of album sales. But there's there's definitely an understanding

1423
01:44:39,160 --> 01:44:43,920
Speaker 2: about having other projects. Other members of the band have

1424
01:44:44,080 --> 01:44:47,160
Speaker 2: other projects that used to be sacrileged to have a

1425
01:44:47,280 --> 01:44:50,040
Speaker 2: band outside of your main band, and now it's it's

1426
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:57,400
Speaker 2: very understood. So well. This year, for example, we we

1427
01:44:57,520 --> 01:45:02,120
Speaker 2: did a summer tour that lasted about five weeks. We

1428
01:45:02,360 --> 01:45:06,800
Speaker 2: just did a European tour that lasted three weeks, but

1429
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:09,920
Speaker 2: I also toured with my trio in March for the

1430
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:14,000
Speaker 2: whole month. Later this month, I'm going to do a

1431
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:18,000
Speaker 2: two week East coast Midwest tour with my trio. And

1432
01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:23,840
Speaker 2: in January I'll be touring in Texas with the trio

1433
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:27,080
Speaker 2: and also up and down the West coast. But then

1434
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:31,280
Speaker 2: in the plant. Current plan is to do a testament

1435
01:45:31,360 --> 01:45:35,240
Speaker 2: tour in March and April for about five weeks. So

1436
01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:40,679
Speaker 2: normally the tours are about five weeks. There are about

1437
01:45:41,640 --> 01:45:45,280
Speaker 2: three or four of those tours a year, so it's

1438
01:45:45,640 --> 01:45:47,320
Speaker 2: actually a lot. It's a lot of time, and when

1439
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:50,080
Speaker 2: you add up the other the instrumental music I do,

1440
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:54,439
Speaker 2: it's it's a lot, but it's fun.

1441
01:45:55,320 --> 01:45:59,920
Speaker 3: So all these years later, yes, as you referenced earlier,

1442
01:46:00,080 --> 01:46:05,120
Speaker 3: or you're a working musician, are you happy? Do you

1443
01:46:05,360 --> 01:46:11,040
Speaker 3: have dreams and desires beyond where you are? Are you frustrated?

1444
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:14,040
Speaker 3: Is the dream still alive? Where you at?

1445
01:46:15,200 --> 01:46:16,879
Speaker 2: The dream is interesting?

1446
01:46:16,960 --> 01:46:17,360
Speaker 3: The dream?

1447
01:46:19,320 --> 01:46:23,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. It's like you know that the theme

1448
01:46:23,439 --> 01:46:27,600
Speaker 2: opening theme from Welcome Back Cotter, right, you know the

1449
01:46:27,760 --> 01:46:31,000
Speaker 2: dreams have changed? They who'd have thought they'd lead you

1450
01:46:31,920 --> 01:46:32,360
Speaker 2: back here.

1451
01:46:33,680 --> 01:46:34,479
Speaker 3: It's kind of like that.

1452
01:46:34,800 --> 01:46:39,679
Speaker 2: It's not as I expected. I thought, Okay, join the band.

1453
01:46:39,960 --> 01:46:43,559
Speaker 2: The band is going to be your full time gig

1454
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:49,280
Speaker 2: and everything else will take care of itself. It's I

1455
01:46:49,520 --> 01:46:54,240
Speaker 2: I am happy. I'm actually having a great time. It's

1456
01:46:55,040 --> 01:46:57,880
Speaker 2: it's more complicated than it used to be because there's

1457
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:03,160
Speaker 2: and this is just reality, and I'm very accepting of it.

1458
01:47:03,320 --> 01:47:06,680
Speaker 2: But to be a full time musician these days, you

1459
01:47:07,040 --> 01:47:09,360
Speaker 2: have to be much more than a musician.

1460
01:47:09,520 --> 01:47:09,680
Speaker 3: You know.

1461
01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:13,280
Speaker 2: You you have to know how to use social media,

1462
01:47:14,520 --> 01:47:18,479
Speaker 2: so you're you're in a way, you're a content creator. Uh,

1463
01:47:19,320 --> 01:47:21,960
Speaker 2: you're an engineer part of the time. You know, we

1464
01:47:22,040 --> 01:47:25,960
Speaker 2: all have studios on our laptops and that's part of

1465
01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:32,160
Speaker 2: the music making process. So I used to always think,

1466
01:47:32,240 --> 01:47:34,160
Speaker 2: you know, okay, people who work in studios, they do

1467
01:47:34,320 --> 01:47:39,000
Speaker 2: the recording. That's not what I do. So, yeah, you

1468
01:47:39,080 --> 01:47:42,840
Speaker 2: have to know that skill. You have to if you

1469
01:47:43,920 --> 01:47:46,760
Speaker 2: run a band. I run a small band, which is

1470
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:52,719
Speaker 2: my trio. Yeah, then you have to learn about you book.

1471
01:47:52,880 --> 01:47:59,639
Speaker 2: You know, transportation and logistics, and I'm able to delegate

1472
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:03,640
Speaker 2: some things and you know, there are things that I

1473
01:48:04,000 --> 01:48:07,200
Speaker 2: don't do. Visual art is not something I do. I

1474
01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:12,320
Speaker 2: admire artists like you know, Joni Mitchell and Rob Zombie

1475
01:48:12,439 --> 01:48:15,640
Speaker 2: that do all their artwork. I don't. I don't do that,

1476
01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:21,479
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's it's it's been fun. I mean, I

1477
01:48:22,120 --> 01:48:25,720
Speaker 2: really like the un predictable things that come up. So

1478
01:48:26,880 --> 01:48:30,080
Speaker 2: an example of an unpredictable thing is I just did

1479
01:48:30,120 --> 01:48:34,240
Speaker 2: my first soundtrack and it's for a film called Traction

1480
01:48:34,520 --> 01:48:39,519
Speaker 2: Park Massacre. The director works for Metallica. His name is

1481
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 2: Adam Duban, and he did a year and a half

1482
01:48:42,200 --> 01:48:45,560
Speaker 2: of the Life of Metallica, but he also did some

1483
01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:50,200
Speaker 2: iconic music videos Beat by the Beastie Boys, fight for

1484
01:48:50,240 --> 01:48:55,160
Speaker 2: Your Right to Party, and this is his first feature film,

1485
01:48:55,640 --> 01:48:57,760
Speaker 2: and he and I kind of get it off. We

1486
01:48:57,840 --> 01:49:01,320
Speaker 2: actually live in the same neighborhood, and he convinced me

1487
01:49:01,479 --> 01:49:05,040
Speaker 2: to do this soundtrack. And the film just debuted at

1488
01:49:05,479 --> 01:49:10,000
Speaker 2: New York Comic Con and it's getting some raves and

1489
01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:13,200
Speaker 2: I'm hearing a lot about the music, so it's I

1490
01:49:13,280 --> 01:49:16,880
Speaker 2: think it's possible I may do more of that. I

1491
01:49:17,080 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 2: just got back from an event called the Guitar Summit

1492
01:49:20,840 --> 01:49:24,400
Speaker 2: in Europe and played on a stage with Weasel Zappa

1493
01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:28,400
Speaker 2: and Andy Timmins. And a bunch of other guys. And

1494
01:49:28,800 --> 01:49:34,440
Speaker 2: you know, there's these guitar events like that. Joe Satriani,

1495
01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:39,320
Speaker 2: our friend, has done some great guitar events. He does

1496
01:49:39,360 --> 01:49:41,920
Speaker 2: this thing called the G four Experience. I've been a

1497
01:49:42,000 --> 01:49:48,960
Speaker 2: guest on two of those, and yeah, just you know,

1498
01:49:49,000 --> 01:49:51,840
Speaker 2: when you add it all up, it's it's a lot

1499
01:49:51,880 --> 01:49:54,840
Speaker 2: of fun. I don't really know what each year looks like,

1500
01:49:56,280 --> 01:49:59,640
Speaker 2: but I'm totally fine with it. This year I was

1501
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:02,240
Speaker 2: able to to squeeze out an album with it with

1502
01:50:02,360 --> 01:50:08,160
Speaker 2: my trio. But you know, coming up, I also have

1503
01:50:08,320 --> 01:50:11,920
Speaker 2: a tour with this great bass player, Percy Jones. He

1504
01:50:12,120 --> 01:50:14,720
Speaker 2: was in a band called brand X in the seventies

1505
01:50:15,960 --> 01:50:19,800
Speaker 2: and has He's associated with artists like Brian Eno and

1506
01:50:20,160 --> 01:50:23,960
Speaker 2: h Phil Collins who was part of brand X, And

1507
01:50:24,160 --> 01:50:27,760
Speaker 2: so Percy's a legend like any fretless bass player knows him.

1508
01:50:27,960 --> 01:50:33,519
Speaker 2: And we have a project together, and uh, you know,

1509
01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:37,080
Speaker 2: I just did a CD release party or album release

1510
01:50:37,160 --> 01:50:39,760
Speaker 2: party in New York a few weeks ago. Vernon Reed

1511
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:40,840
Speaker 2: was a special guest.

1512
01:50:42,280 --> 01:50:42,439
Speaker 3: You know.

1513
01:50:42,680 --> 01:50:45,280
Speaker 2: So I'm doing a lot a lot of fun stuff.

1514
01:50:45,880 --> 01:50:50,479
Speaker 2: So it's it's not I I never like planned it

1515
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:54,160
Speaker 2: this way, but I've also learned that you can't plan

1516
01:50:54,320 --> 01:50:58,040
Speaker 2: too much. I think I've had more success by not

1517
01:50:59,000 --> 01:51:01,519
Speaker 2: planning or ex expecting anything.

1518
01:51:02,680 --> 01:51:05,719
Speaker 3: Well, we'll look forward to what pops up in the future.

1519
01:51:06,439 --> 01:51:10,280
Speaker 3: Once again, you can hear Alice's music on all the

1520
01:51:10,360 --> 01:51:13,800
Speaker 3: streaming services which should check out. It's pretty interesting. Also

1521
01:51:14,120 --> 01:51:19,479
Speaker 3: does covers of stuff like Tom Petty's Breakdown from a

1522
01:51:19,640 --> 01:51:22,000
Speaker 3: jazz perspective, don't let that take you too far with

1523
01:51:22,200 --> 01:51:24,240
Speaker 3: jazz if you listen to it, it's still Tom Petty's

1524
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:29,439
Speaker 3: breakdown and of course testament Alex. Thanks for taking this

1525
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:30,799
Speaker 3: time speaking my audience.

1526
01:51:31,479 --> 01:51:34,200
Speaker 2: Bob, thanks so much for having me again. I'm a

1527
01:51:34,280 --> 01:51:38,920
Speaker 2: loyal reader and please keep up what you're doing. It's

1528
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:42,960
Speaker 2: you're our voice of sanity and it's a big honor

1529
01:51:43,080 --> 01:51:44,919
Speaker 2: to be on the left of the podcast.

1530
01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:48,880
Speaker 3: Wow as they say, Yeah, you email me all the time,

1531
01:51:48,920 --> 01:51:51,840
Speaker 3: so it's great to meet you in person. Until next time,

1532
01:51:52,439 --> 01:51:53,880
Speaker 3: This is Bob Leftstacks