1 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,120 Speaker 1: I'm George Severs, and this is United States of Kennedy, 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. 3 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story, 4 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: and today we are talking about the two thousand and 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: six film Bobby, written and directed by Emilio Estevez and 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: featuring a star studded ensemble cast, including everyone from Anthony 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: Hopkins and Sharon Stone to Lindsay Lohan and Nick Cannon. 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: So On June fifth, nineteen sixty eight, the day after 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: winning the California Democratic primary for President, Robert F. Kennedy 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: was shot and killed by a man named Sihan Sirhan 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. It was one 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: of the four major political assassinations in the US in 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, along with those of President John F. Kennedy, 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King Junior, the last of 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: which happened only two months earlier. The two thousand and 16 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: six film tells the interconnected stories of a group of 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,279 Speaker 1: fictional characters staying at the Ambassador Hotel the day Bobby 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: was shot. Their stories are meant to reflect the social 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: and political issues of the time such as racism, the 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: civil rights movement, the Vietnam War, the popularity of psychedelic drugs, 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: and changing attitudes around feminism and women's rights. Now that 22 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: all sounds good, but unfortunately it is a classic ensemble 23 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: movie that doesn't quite add up to more than the 24 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: sum of its parts. It was neither a critical nor 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: a commercial hit, although it was nominated for both a 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: SAG Award and a Critics Choice Award for Best Ensemble Cast. 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: So I wanted to discuss the ups and downs of 28 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: this movie with someone who truly has a well of 29 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: Kennedy knowledge, my good friend Julia Clair. Julia is a 30 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: brilliant comedian and currently a writer of all kinds at 31 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: Crooked Media. She's also one of the biggest history abuffs 32 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: I know. So I can't wait. Julia. Hello, Hi, Thank 33 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: you so much for being here to chat about the 34 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: incredible two thousand and six film Bobby. This is one 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: of those movies that is a classic, this had Oscar 36 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: Buzz movie. There's a podcast called This had Oscar Buzz 37 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: where every week they talk about a movie that was 38 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: clearly designed to get awards recognition and then it somehow 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: never did. 40 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: There has never been a movie that fits that description 41 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: more than this. 42 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: It almost feels like famous Oscar nominated actors were walking 43 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: by the set and the director was like, do you 44 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,399 Speaker 1: want to just come in for one scene? We'll write 45 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: you can come in, Come on, we can improv. It'll 46 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: be great. So before we get into the movie, I 47 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: do want to talk a little bit about your relationship 48 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: with the Kennedy's writ large because, of course, when I 49 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: texted you last night asking how you enjoyed the movie, 50 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: you said to me, I cracked open my Bobby Kennedy 51 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: biography for the first time in years, meaning that this 52 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: is something you own and consult like one would the 53 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: Bible every few years. 54 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: Sure, sure, as one does. Yeah, it's Bobby Kennedy by 55 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: Larry Tye, longtime Boston Globe reporter. I read the book 56 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: ten years ago. You know, I'm from Massachusetts. I think 57 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: that even more so than just being an American, I 58 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: think there's a Massachusetts specific fascination with the Kennedys that's 59 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 2: not entirely healthy. My grandparents actually hated the Kennedys. Unsurprisingly, 60 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 2: my Boston copp grandfather was not a huge JFK. 61 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: Fan. 62 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: I think it was a class thing too. There were 63 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: some people for whom the Kennedys were aspirational if they were, 64 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 2: you know, lower middle class or poor, and my grandparents 65 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 2: it was not like that. They just saw them as 66 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: spoiled entitled. 67 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, well, okay, you're from Massachusetts, you're Catholic, 68 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: you were a history major, correct, that's right, and I 69 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: think like American history, right. 70 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: No, actually it was your European history. But I love history, 71 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: the history. 72 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's a natural fit that you would gravitate 73 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: towards the Kennedys, right, and why Bobby in particular. 74 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: Bobby is just like more interesting to me than JFK 75 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: by long shot. I know you guys have done two 76 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: episodes on chap equittic. I'm also much more interested in 77 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: Teddy than I am in Jack, But Bobby is. He 78 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: was just much more emotional. He's just a fascinating character 79 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: to me. He was the least handsome, smallest runt of 80 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 2: the litter and had a notorious terrible temper, just a 81 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: little teapot waiting to blow. 82 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree that I find both Bobby and 83 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: ted more interesting. Basically, as we do research for each 84 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: of these episodes, my actual knowledge gets slightly less spotty 85 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: with each week, and I have a depth of knowledge 86 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: about one event, but then have no idea what happened 87 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: the year after that. And the thing with Ted is, 88 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: on the one hand, chap equittic on its own is 89 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: such a shocking story that already that hooks you in. 90 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: But then he also, just by virtue of living longer, 91 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: just had this very long career and you could actually 92 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: write a very robust biography of him because he was 93 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: in the government for decades. And then Bobby, he was 94 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: i think also just smarter than Jack. He was the 95 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: brains of the operation when he was in his attorney general. 96 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: Would you say that is accurate. 97 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: Or initially in their youth that is not how Larry 98 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: Tie categorized it. He said that he was not as 99 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: naturally smart as Jack, definitely not as naturally charismatic. 100 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: You know what it is. It's like because he didn't 101 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: have that natural charisma. My mind goes to, oh, well, 102 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: he must have been book smart, and he must have 103 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: been the one that was behind the scenes operating everything 104 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: because he wasn't good on TV. But in fact that's 105 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: also not true because I'm now remembering we did this 106 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: whole episode about him taking on organized crime and taking 107 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: on Jimmy Hoffa, and in fact, he completely fucked that 108 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: up as well, after like years of trying to make 109 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: it his signature number one thing. But I think maybe 110 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: the propaganda of this movie partly worked on me, and 111 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: then I came out being like, wow, he really was 112 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: the last hope for America. 113 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: I know, I know. And there's also a lot in 114 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: this about him being the last man standing in the 115 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: civil rights movement, which he went on the real journey 116 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: with that, Like he started his career, his legislative career 117 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: as an aid to Senator Joseph McCarthy, and also much 118 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: later Obviously we can all be excused for youthful indiscretions 119 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: of working with Senator Joseph McCarthy, but everyone forgets that 120 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: he personally authorized the FBI wiretapping of Martin Luther King. 121 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: Right, And this is a historical spotty memory that somehow 122 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: everyone on the center to center left seems to have 123 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: about all the Kennedys. Yeah, because people often when I 124 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: read things about JFK, people just completely uncritically will refer 125 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: to him as a champion for civil rights. That was 126 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: something that was very carefully pull tested how much he 127 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: can say and how much she can extend on olive 128 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,799 Speaker 1: branch to people that were asking for civil rights while 129 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: not alienating Southern Democrats, and this and that, and this 130 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: movie literally has a line we're jumping ahead. This was 131 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: what a my ype, straight thoughts Nick Cannon. Spoiler alert, 132 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: Nick Cannon is in this movie. God. Nick Cannon literally says, 133 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: now that doctor King is gone, no one left but. 134 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: Bobby but Bob. That's right, that's crazy. And that's also 135 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: crazy because the other candidate in the primary, this was 136 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: after Johnson had dropped out, was Eugene McCarthy, who voted 137 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: for the Civil Rights Act of Voting Rights Act. He 138 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: actually was a champion for civil rights in a lot 139 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: of different ways. But the Nick Cannon of it all 140 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: will get to get that. But the one thing that 141 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: all these years later stuck in my mind from that 142 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: Bobby Kennedy biography was this scene where in nineteen sixty three, 143 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: Bobby invited a bunch of civil rights icons to his 144 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: house to talk about why black Americans were gravitating towards 145 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: more violent black nationalists like Malcolm X and the Nation 146 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,679 Speaker 2: of Islam and all that, and Essentially, he was looking 147 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: for basically all of them to be like, Wow, you 148 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: guys are doing an amazing job. Because he didn't invite 149 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: anyone from the NAACP or the Urban League. He didn't 150 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: invite Martin Luther King obviously, just authorized just wiretap. So 151 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: he had James Baldwin put together a group of artists 152 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: and intellectuals and activists, and he was again looking for 153 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: them to tell him what a great job the Kennedy 154 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: administration was doing. And then there was this one activist 155 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: who had been beaten by cops so many times, and 156 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: he was just like, you haven't done enough. And that 157 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: became the tone of the meeting. And Harry Bellefonte, who 158 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 2: was in Bobby was in that meeting. Oh my god, 159 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: and Harry Bellefonte and Bobby were pretty friendly. And after 160 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 2: the meeting, Bobby was like, why didn't you stick up 161 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: for me? 162 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: Wow? 163 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: And he was like, I would lose all credibility in 164 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 2: this space if I had done that. But yeah, it 165 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 2: was like Lena Horne, Harry Belafonte, James Baldwin, and a 166 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: number of other politically active black celebrities and public figures 167 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: who just read him the Riot Act and he was 168 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: pissed at the time. He wanted to be celebrated for 169 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 2: being a civil rights champion. 170 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, well he finally got it all those years later 171 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six. As Bobby, I mean, the 172 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: hagiographic tone of the movie, it really cannot be aggresiated. 173 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: And I think you're saying Harry Belafonda was a friend 174 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: of his, and he's not the only one that has 175 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: a clear emotional connection to the Kennedys in the movie. 176 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: So Amelia Estevez, who directed the movie, who wrote it 177 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: and wrote it, Yes, thank you, and wrote it by himself. 178 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: By the way, sometimes when you have one of these 179 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: people that's like an actor that became a director, there's 180 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: a team of people who are helping. This literally just 181 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: s has written and directed by Emelia Estevez. 182 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: And honey, honey, he should have had a team. 183 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: And you know what it shows for anyone who doesn't 184 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: you know, any younger listeners. Amelia Estevez, first of all, 185 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: son of Martin Sheen, brother of Charlie Sheen, wasn't member 186 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: of the brat pack of actors in the eighties who 187 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: was in the Breakfast Club, which is a funniest sort 188 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: of connection. He asked to Demi Moore, who's also in 189 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: this movie, because she was part of that. 190 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: General Yeah, they were in scene almost fire together. 191 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. So anyway, Emilia Estevez has distinct memories of learning 192 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: about Bobby being assassinated on he was a kid, and 193 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: Martin she and his father was a huge Kennedy supporter. 194 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: So they're just going in with all this love for 195 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: the Kennedys, and a movie like this, it would be 196 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: very easy to add, just for the sake of pretending 197 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: you're being a little more objective, to just add one 198 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: storyline that's like slightly critical. But every single storyline, it's 199 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: like the arc of the universe bends towards Bobby Kennedy 200 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: being the perfect American. 201 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. Even the Christian Slater character, he's 202 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: supposed to be the racist one, he ultimately comes out 203 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: being forever changed. 204 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: Changed, and by just the presence of Bobby, it's like 205 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: Bobby basically convinces him via his speech not to be 206 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: a racist. By the end of the movie, there is 207 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: a whole Joshua Jackson plays Bobby's campaign manager, and one 208 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: of his subplots is that he doesn't want this Czechoslovakian 209 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: journalist to interview Bobby, but then she convinces him that 210 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: he should be supportive of other perspectives, and then he says, 211 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: of course, you can come, and I'll make sure you 212 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: have a spot at the press conference or whatever. Anyway, 213 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: so this is a great time to get into the 214 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: nitty gritty of the movie. As we mentioned, this is 215 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: one of those movies that is just like a giant 216 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: ensemble cast. Everyone has ten lines tops and I don't 217 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: know if the structure is based on Robert Altman's Nashville, 218 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: but it is very similar, and that Robert Altman's Nashville 219 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: is also about this giant kind of cast of characters, 220 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: and it takes place over the span of I want 221 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: to say, a week, and it's leading up to this 222 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: big benefit concert for some outsider political candidate, and similarly 223 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: with Bobby, they it's set in the Ambassador Hotel the 224 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: day of the California primary, and it's all leading to 225 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: a victory speech that Bobby is going to make he 226 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: wins the California primary, and then of course is shot 227 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: and killed right after, and so it follows the lives 228 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: of various people staying in that hotel for various reasons, 229 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: and very heavy handedly, one could say, explores how their 230 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: individual lives intersect with larger political themes of the day. 231 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: So I just want to go through all the different 232 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: actors and characters very quickly. Anthony Hopkins is a retired 233 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: hotel dorman who just hangs around at the hotel because 234 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: he loved his job so much when he was a 235 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: dorman at the hotel. He's constantly talking to his random 236 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: friend played by Harry Belafonte. They're playing chess together, They're 237 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: talking about aging. It's two wise old men chatting. Lindsay 238 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: Lohan is marrying Elijah Wood with the hope that if 239 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: they get married, he will be deployed to Germany instead 240 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: of Vietnam, which is something that happened a lot at 241 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: that time. People would get married specifically for this purpose. 242 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: And also Emilio Esta has in fact met a woman 243 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: who had done that, and that is what inspired him 244 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: to write the movie. So he built the movie around 245 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: that character all right, very quickly. Demi Moore is an 246 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: alcoholic singer that is navigating her relationship like a very 247 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: cabaret style singer named Virginia Fallon. 248 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: I want to say she does this insane rendition of Lulu. 249 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: Louis, which was in fact recorded and released in some 250 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: capacity according to Wikipedia, but there is a Demi Moore 251 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: cover of Louie Louis. Sharon Stone plays a beautician who 252 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: works at the hotel Salon. I would say her class 253 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: signifiers are very confusing, because on the one hand, she's 254 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: clearly coded as a working class nail technician. On the 255 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: other hand, she is married to the manager of the hotel, 256 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: who is William H. Macy, who is in this managerial position. 257 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: So we had William H. Macy. He's Sharon Stone's husband. 258 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: He's having an affair with Heather Graham, who is a 259 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: young hot switchboard operator. Christian Slater is a racist food 260 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: and beverage manager who is fired by William H. Macy 261 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: for being racist. Laurence Fishburn comes in for truly twenty seconds. 262 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: He is ano chef that makes a mean blueberry pie. Yes. 263 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: Freder Rodriguez one of the two Mexican American bus boys. 264 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: His entire storyline is that he has tickets to a 265 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: baseball game but can't go because he has to work 266 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: a double shift. Shilah buff is a Kennedy campaign volunteer 267 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: who buys acid from Get Ready for This Ashton Kutcher 268 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: and goes on an acid trip instead of going out 269 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: and volunteering for Bobby. Helen Hunt and Martin Sheen play 270 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: a married couple who are rich campaign donor. She's a 271 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: socialite figure. At one point, he makes fun of her 272 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: for purchasing a painting of a Campbell's can of soup, 273 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: which is that's right, a warhol. Joshua Jackson, his Bobby's 274 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: campaign manager. Nick Cannon, is a staffer who falls for 275 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: Joy Bryan, who is Heather Graham's coworker at the switchboard. Then, 276 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: of course we have the Czechoslovakian reporter who is determined 277 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: to get an interview with Kennedy. And then there's leftover. 278 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: David crumbholds Mary Elizabeth Winstead. When I went on letterbox 279 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: to look at the cast, I had to click more 280 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: just to get to Helen h Now Academy Award winner 281 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: Helen Hunt is after and more. Yeah, we're going to 282 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: take a sh or break, stay with us, and we're 283 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: back with United States of Kennedy. 284 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: The reason why all this happened is because Anthony Hopkins 285 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: was the first person to sign on, so we can 286 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: blame Anthony Hopkins for this movie. 287 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: I believe might have been the second and they got 288 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: the yeah, and. 289 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: He said that he signed on because Anthony Hopkins was 290 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: doing it. And Amelia asked of us, was having such 291 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: a hard time getting this movie made. He had written 292 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: it right before you guessed it September eleventh, and had 293 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: terrible writer's block, which I think is evidenced in their screenplay. 294 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: And he was having a really hard time getting this 295 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: movie made. He was selling a bunch of his own 296 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: stuff to get this movie made. And then Anthony Hopkins, 297 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: who has a lot of personal feelings about Bobby, was 298 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: the first person to sign on, and then that was 299 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 2: a domino effect. All these other huge name actors signed 300 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: on for basically no money. 301 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: M M. Yeah. The story of it really reminds me 302 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: of stories you'll hear about a biopic about a forgotten 303 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: figure in history and it's someone's passion project and everyone 304 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: is just working at scale, except it's about Kennedy. It says, 305 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: though they were all passionate about making a film about 306 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: a forgotten civil rights activist whose name they wanted to 307 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: get out there, except it's about someone everyone knows about 308 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: generally respect He already has a generally good reputation in 309 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: the public American imagination. But it really seemed to be 310 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: a labor of love. I mean, I recently found out 311 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: that i'mdb trivia is in no way fact checked and 312 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: completely user generated. But one of the things in IMDb 313 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: trivia that I read that I was in the middle 314 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: of fact check again that we had to record is 315 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: that everyone worked as a show of support of the movie. 316 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: All these famous actors were at Scale. So you have 317 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: Sharon Stone and Demi Moore. Demi Moore, by the way, 318 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: famously at one point the most highly actress in America allegedly, 319 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: you know, worked for Scale to do this movie. 320 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 2: I think she and Amelia were once an item. I 321 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 2: think there was. I think there were once engaged. I 322 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 2: think they met on the set of Say Normal's Fire. 323 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny, you know, to Reverence a different podcast, 324 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: the podcast How Did This Get Made, which is about 325 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: movies that are bad. It's like, the answer to How 326 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: Did This Get Made is just it's good old fashioned 327 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: Hollywood hobnobbing and nepotism and just everyone knowing one another 328 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: and people doing favors for one another. And the fact 329 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: that all these big actors basically just had five lines. 330 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: I am sure that for Sharon Stone, it was one 331 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: day on set, like she's there, she's wearing the one 332 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: outfitures as a beautician. She has those clip on bangs on, 333 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: and she's. 334 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: You know, I love those clip on bangs. 335 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: I mean, okay, well, we will get into bigger issues, 336 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: but I do want to ask you, since we're talking 337 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: about all these actors, who for you was the MVP 338 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: of the movie. 339 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 2: So I actually I wrote this down that there are 340 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: three actors in this movie who are so good that 341 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 2: it is basically like they're acting in a different movie. 342 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: And it's Antanie Hopkins, Laurence Smishburn and Sharon Stone, and 343 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 2: all three of them, I'm like, what movie are you in? 344 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 2: Because Anthony Hopkins is pouring so much of himself into 345 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 2: this he is so grounding, and then everything else in 346 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: this movie is so incredibly goofy, and even actors who 347 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 2: are normally great are not that good in this movie. 348 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 2: It's not their fault. The script is bad. 349 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: And I just want to say, one such actor, and 350 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: it's not her fault at all, is Helen Hunt. The 351 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: things that Helen Hunt is given to say, I wrote 352 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: down the Helen Hunt's black shoe speech. 353 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 2: That's I wrote it down to. I wrote it down 354 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: to Helen Hunt's monologue about how it's hard to be 355 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 2: a woman because of shoes. 356 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: But the black sheman like there are so you know, again, 357 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: every character is completely a symbol representing the social issues 358 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: of the sixties. So for some people it's the relationship 359 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: to Vietnam and the Draft. For some people it's the 360 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: relationship to changing attitudes around women and feminism. For some 361 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: people it's about civil rights and racial unrest in America. 362 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: Every single person corresponds to some social issue, and so 363 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: Helen Hunt, who is a rich social aid it's interesting. 364 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: They could have made her storyline somehow about class or 365 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: inequality or something, but they really didn't. They want you 366 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: to fully be on her side when she gives this 367 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: monologue about how difficult it is to be a wealthy woman. 368 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: And this is my issue with it, because she can't 369 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: find shoes that match her black dress. 370 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 2: She forgot to pack her black shoes to match her 371 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: black dress, and famously. 372 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: Black goes with Everything's so shocking, And that's where I 373 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: was like, Wow, a man wrote this I know. 374 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: That monologue was so crazy and she was so emotional 375 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: duri it. Look, I have to say I'm a Helen 376 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: Hunt hater. I do not think she is a good actor, 377 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 2: and I think she also in this case, was given 378 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 2: pretty bad material to work with. 379 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: There was also I think maybe the worst Maybe Nick 380 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: Cannon is the worst, worst in terms of material, just 381 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: in terms of rating, and I think Helen Hunt is 382 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: second worst. 383 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was something on the IMDb trivia that 384 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: we don't know if it's true, I guess, but that 385 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: she was given her script the day before and that 386 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: would make sense. Yes, that would make a lot of sense. 387 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: But she's really bad. Also, I had no idea what 388 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 2: the point of her and Charlie Sheen's little vignettes were. 389 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: And also I was like, it's so weird that Emilio 390 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 2: Estevez wrote this kind of horny part for his dad. 391 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: Yes, No, it's very strange, and I almost think that 392 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: he wanted his dad to be involved and he didn't 393 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: have something for him, so he created this on the 394 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: spot or something. So you're three mvv I agree, Anthony Hopkins, 395 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: Laurence Fishburne and Sharon Stone. I mean, to me, Sharon 396 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: Stone was the MVP. She is doing trashy, fake blonde 397 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: nail technicians, so well, it's a register she knows she 398 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: can do. She also so gets to actually have way 399 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: more subplots than most other people because she interacts with 400 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: three main characters. She gets to have a nice chat 401 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,479 Speaker 1: with Lindsay Lohan, who's doing her nails for her wedding, 402 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 1: and so they have a whole earnest conversation about the 403 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: ethics and the larger context of marrying someone in order 404 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: to soft dodge the draft basically. Then she has a 405 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: sort of intense conversation with Demi Moore where Demi more 406 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 1: drunkenly says one of the most iconic lines, which is 407 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: we're all horse, we'se some of us are just paid 408 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: for it. And then she also gets to discover that 409 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: her husband is having an affair and then confront him. 410 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: I mean, she's the closest to being, if not a 411 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: fully fledged character, at least a character that is enmeshed 412 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: in the network of other characters in the movie rather 413 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: than just silo to their own storyline. 414 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, she feels the closest to a real person. 415 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: Yes, I think, and you know why, because she's the 416 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: only one who basically isn't just a symbol of a 417 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: social issue. Like we said, you can't directly draw a 418 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: line between Sharon Stone's character and a hot topic. She's 419 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: actually just she is a woman who's having difficulties with 420 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: her job, her marriage, and her sense of self and 421 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 1: with aging. Who among us I know, No. 422 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: I just think she's so good. And if this movie 423 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: had thirty percent more her, Yeah, I think it would 424 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 2: have been a lot better. I just think that in 425 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: the hands of a more capable it's particularly a more 426 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 2: capable screen writer, this just would have been. This movie was, 427 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: in my opinion, bad, and it didn't have to be 428 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 2: that way. Nineteen sixty eight is one of the most 429 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 2: fascinating years in modern American history. Lyndon Johnson called it, 430 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: I think a year of unending nightmare. And this is 431 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 2: one of the most fascinating days in that year. And 432 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: the fact that they made a movie that was pretty 433 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: boring honestly is crazy. And to me, my favorite parts 434 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 2: of the whole movie were the archival footage and audio. 435 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: Yes, I agree, and it actually comparing it to the 436 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: writing of the actual movie, I was like, Wow, Bobby 437 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: had great speech writers. 438 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: Yes, he really does. 439 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: These are actually good writers. It's very Obama like in 440 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: the sort of inspirational tone that has just enough sprinkles 441 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: of substance to have a plausible deniability that maybe something 442 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: actually legitimate is being said. And I'm not above being 443 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: emotionally manipulated. And when you show me a montage of 444 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: characters that I've met bleeding to an inspirational speech, that's 445 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: gonna move me despite myself. 446 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the Sound of Silence and my Simon Garfunkle 447 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 2: is playing. 448 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: And I have to actually admit something really shocking, which 449 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: is so. I saw this movie around when it came out. 450 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: I think it was playing on TV or something. I 451 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: don't think I intentionally rented it. And it is the 452 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: first time I had heard that song Wow, And I 453 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: literally googled lyrics to learn what song it was. And 454 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: then I was like, I love this song, and I actually, 455 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: for a while, thankfully I was under agent, was not 456 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: able to do this. Wanted a tattoo of some of 457 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: the lyrics of the Sound of Silence. 458 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I wish you would die. 459 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: I wish I had done it, had done it, and 460 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: I could have revealed it on Zoom Live for this episode. Wow. 461 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, I'm not made of stone. I 462 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 2: was emotional at the end too. Again, the archival footage especially, 463 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 2: and the music. And it's funny because the movie itself is. 464 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: Pretty boring, yes, and not affecting. 465 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: And not affecting, and then the last five minutes of it, 466 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 2: I'm getting a lump in myce threat. Yeah, and that's crazy. 467 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, because at its best, I think its biggest weakness 468 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: ends up being a strength briefly at the end, which 469 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: is it is so diffuse. It is about so many 470 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: different characters that you never actually get to know that 471 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: you don't build connections with them, But at the end 472 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: you can finally zoom out and it's almost like being like, wow, 473 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: America is the land of contrast, Like it really used 474 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: zoom and you're able to look at the larger picture 475 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: of where the country was at the time. But I 476 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: think the film sacrifices depth for breadth, like none of 477 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: the characters individually make you feel anything. And I think 478 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: what you're saying about how nineteen sixty eight was such 479 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: an important year is the trap the film fell into, 480 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: and that there's so much they could say that they 481 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: wanted to say all of it and ended up having 482 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: one sentence about each topic. Like if they just made 483 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: the movie about, you know, the Lindsay Lohan and Elijah 484 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: Wood characters, that is a really interesting story. The story 485 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: there is that they are getting married for dishonest, strategic purposes, 486 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: but in the process or falling in love. That's very 487 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: interesting and very impactful. And you could make a whole 488 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: movie about that, and instead they get two scenes. Yeah, totally, 489 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: and I got to say all my love to Lindsay, 490 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: and of course Elijah would very little emoting happening. 491 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah, And they had almost no che mystery. It 492 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 2: was crazy. And the thing that I have to say 493 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 2: really was this movie's moment of jumping the shark. 494 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 1: Was the LSC trip and say more about that. 495 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: Okay, So, as George said, Shila Buff and Actor number 496 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: two go to Ashton Kutcher's hotel room to buy a 497 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: joint and then Ashton Kutcher wearing the worst wig I've 498 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 2: ever seen in my whole life. 499 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: Potentially drawn on facial hair. There was something uncanny Valley 500 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: about every single thing about it. It was like spirit 501 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: Halloween costume that's called that's called like flower child. 502 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: It's so true it was truly heinous to look at. 503 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: And there's a guy who's never disappeared into a role 504 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 2: in his life. It is just like you're looking at 505 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: him and you're like, well, that's Ashton Kutcher. So he 506 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: sells them LSD and tells them that it's going to 507 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 2: give them a personal relationship with God, which would also 508 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 2: sell me. 509 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: Yes, But this. 510 00:26:55,119 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: Extremely goofy green screen traveling in time and space montage 511 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 2: happens of their trip, and for a movie that takes 512 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: itself so seriously otherwise, it is a crazy thing to 513 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 2: put in the middle of this movie. 514 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: Well again, they just wanted to be like, you know 515 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: what else is happening in the sixties? 516 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: Drugs, drugs, the electric acid tests. 517 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: I mean, as we've said, this movie really hammers home. 518 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: These are the events and these are the themes of 519 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: the sixties. And one of the most unforgivable parts is 520 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: when they are tripping on acid and what they are 521 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: hallucinating is archival footage of the Vietnam War. It's so crazy, 522 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: they're not. It's like, this is a nineteen year old 523 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: stoner guy who has a crush on a waitress who 524 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: is volunteering for a political candidate that he found inspirational, 525 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: like he's gonna be hallucinating giant mushrooms and colorful rainbows. 526 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: He's not gonna be hallucinating archival footage of the Vietnam War. 527 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna be hallucinating Mary Lizbeth Winstone, Yes, exactly, 528 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 2: something like that. But yeah, also, child Boss, he's another 529 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 2: one who is doing much better than the material. And 530 00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 2: then you hate to say, you hate to say. 531 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: And this is a movie, of course, speaking of problematic men, 532 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: produced by the Weinstein Company, so it's a real millage 533 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: of amazing figures. 534 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 2: But this is also just a really interesting point in 535 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 2: Shila Buk's career because it was a few years after Holes. 536 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 2: He had just gotten out of the Disney rotation, and 537 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 2: then Transformers came out the following year, so he was 538 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: on the brink and he was clearly trying to show 539 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 2: his chops in this serious movie, and he does a 540 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: good job. It's just that the material is really bad. 541 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's that he isn't really allowed to 542 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: shine because all of the especially the male character, would say, 543 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: they are dragged by the ensemble of it. Shia has 544 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: to be in scenes with the two other guys that 545 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: are inherently goofy. He's not given a monologue, he's not 546 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: given something to do by himself. It's interesting to think 547 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: of the young performers in this movie, all of whom 548 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: are doing some version of what you're saying, like trying 549 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: to be taken seriously. Because that's definitely the case with 550 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: Wendsay Lohan. It's definitely the case with Elijah Wood coming 551 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: out of Lord of the Rings. It's definitely the case 552 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: with Nick Cannon. I'm it's a big deal that he 553 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: was cast in this movie after drum Line. 554 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: Which also he's doing the drum line face in most 555 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 2: of the movie too, And those who have seen Drumline 556 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 2: will know what I'm talking about. But yeah, he is 557 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: doing the drum line straight face. He has the most 558 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 2: unforgivable overacting in the whole movie. It's tough, it's really rough. 559 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 2: It's every line read is dialed to a thirteen. It's crazy. 560 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it's also so unfair to have him. 561 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: It's unfair. 562 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: Again, everything he's made to do feels completely unauthentic. But 563 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: he's the one who has to stay the line. Now 564 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,479 Speaker 1: the Doctor King is dead, Bobby is all we have 565 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: and that is the central thesis of his character, so 566 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: he has to go around being like, Okay, what is 567 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: the inner truth? By character, it's that as a black man, 568 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: he thinks the only civil rights figure that is worthy 569 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: of praise is Bobby Kennedy. We'll be back with more 570 00:29:52,600 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy after this break, and we're back 571 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: with United States of Kennedy. I'm very happy I have 572 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: someone on the podcast that has read, at least one 573 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: time a comprehensive Bobby biography. So obviously the movie is 574 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: Actually something I liked about the movie is that no 575 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: one has cast as him, and the movie is built 576 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: around archival footage. 577 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 2: I really liked it. 578 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, And obviously when he's on TV, it's easy to do, 579 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,479 Speaker 1: it makes sense. But even when he is shot and 580 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: then there is a scene being filmed around him, it's 581 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: very interesting because the scene is being filmed normally you 582 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: see the various faces, and then you go to him 583 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: and it seamlessly switches into archival footage and it's just grainier. 584 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 2: I really liked that, And again that was one of 585 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: those moments where I was like, Wow, a more skilled 586 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: filmmaker could have done a version of this that was 587 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 2: actually great, and. 588 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: I even think, as you're saying he's a worse writer 589 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: than he is a director. I even think the scene 590 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: of spoiler alert, we learn about all these characters, and 591 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: then the big climax is that Bobby, after giving a speech, 592 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: she goes into the kitchen and as he's sort of 593 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: shaking hands with people and celebrating, he is shot. And 594 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: then there is this montage of everyone in slow motion 595 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: being horrified seeing people they know that have been injured, 596 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: blah blah. 597 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: That's also interest placed with real photographs and front because 598 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: it was all on film basically, right. 599 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: And we should say the two characters that are ever 600 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: so slightly based in reality. One is the Lindsay Lohan 601 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: character because the director met someone who had a similar story. 602 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: And then the other one is the bus boy because 603 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: there was a Mexican American bus boy that was shaking 604 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: Bobby's hand as he was shot. So that is a 605 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 1: true fact, but it's not based on his backstory or anything. 606 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 2: It's not based on his backstory. But he was also 607 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 2: the one who in all the famous photographs was cradling 608 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 2: Bobby's head right when he was on the floor, and 609 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 2: this busboy put his rosary into Bobby's hand and closed it, 610 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: which is one of those things. Right now, it's given 611 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 2: me chills, but it is one of those things that 612 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 2: I don't know. Again, I'm not made of stone. I 613 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: remember reading the book ten years ago, and obviously you 614 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 2: know how it ends, but I still found myself crying 615 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 2: at the end. 616 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: So, Juliet, what did you think of the portrayal of 617 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: Bobby in the film? Because he yes, it is archival footage, 618 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: but it is of course, like carefully selected. His impact 619 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: on people is really driven into you. We've talked about 620 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: how his relationship to civil rights is slightly whitewashed, but otherwise, 621 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: what did you think of the portrayal of him as 622 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: a public figure during this time. 623 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: I honestly think that, having not been there myself, it 624 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: probably was fairly accurate to how he was thought of 625 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty eight by the people who loved him, 626 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: because I think this is like a very aphoristic rendering 627 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: of him. Obviously, I think all of the pictures at 628 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 2: the end, all of the real photographs of him all 629 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: over the country, that is what people loved about him. 630 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: The year before, in nineteen sixty seven, he had gone 631 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: to the Mississippi Delta and went out to need people 632 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 2: there and to see like rural poverty for himself, and 633 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: it really changed him. And everyone who met him on 634 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 2: that trip said that they didn't want to like him, 635 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 2: and they ended up really falling for him as a person. 636 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 2: And I think that that's the thing about him that 637 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: has kind of endured in his legacy is just he 638 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 2: really touched people. He was so emotional himself. He was 639 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: such an open wound that he really connected with people 640 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 2: on an interpersonal level. He loved to touch people, he 641 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 2: loved to rustle people's hair, and kids loved him and 642 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 2: he had eleven kids. 643 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: You know. 644 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: Everything for him was visceral and tactile. And I think 645 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: that part of him really comes through in this. And 646 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: a lot of people say Eugene McCarthy is very kind 647 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 2: of academic and withdrawn and wasn't really hanging out with 648 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 2: civil rights leaders, who was hanging out with like poets 649 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 2: and professors. So I think there was something very real 650 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 2: to people about Bobby. 651 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, to die basically at the peak of 652 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: your popularity during an old during a primary, even because 653 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: he didn't even have a chance to then go head 654 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: to head with a Republican This is like when Obama 655 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: had momentum against Hillary in two thousand and eight, So 656 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: he had no chance to disappoint anyone because he was 657 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: never then in office and we never got to see, 658 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: like did he follow through on his promises? Was he 659 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: being dishonest the whole time? So the reverence really makes 660 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: sense in that way, because he died being for people 661 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 1: who voted him, for people who you know, are similar 662 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: to the characters in this movie. He died as just 663 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 1: a symbol of hope and change to quote a different politician. 664 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was a symbol of what could be yes, exactly. 665 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 2: And also he had clearly gone through a lot of 666 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 2: personal changes within himself in terms of what he believed, 667 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 2: and maybe in that way people in the country felt 668 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: reflected in him, because I'm sure that between the MacArthur 669 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 2: era and nineteen sixty eight there were millions of Americans 670 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 2: who felt that their own politics on or their own 671 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 2: views on the issues had changed. It makes sense why 672 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 2: he was so important and why his assassination was cataclysmic 673 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 2: in the way that it was. 674 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: I mean, you get why Miller Estevez put all his 675 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: personal fortune into making the movie with every single every 676 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: single actor in Hollywood. Well, listen, I'm shocked we haven't 677 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: really discussed Demi Moore because Demi Moore is, as you're saying, 678 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: there's generally two kinds of acting happening. Some people are 679 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: acting like they're in a better movie than they are. 680 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: Some people are being really bogged down by the terrible writing. 681 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: And I think, to me, Moore is something different. She's like, 682 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 1: I'm here to slay, Like I came here. I came 683 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: here to play a drunk cabaret singer, and I do 684 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: not even know who's a I don't know who y'all 685 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: are voting for. Like I'm literally in a blackout. We're oh, 686 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:08,919 Speaker 1: I'm in a blackout and my job is to hold 687 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: in Martini, smoke a cigarette and call Sharon's Stone a 688 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: whore and then immediately apologize and break down crying and 689 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: be like, sorry, I'm a drunk, and then have the 690 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: largest hair I've ever seen in my life. In almost 691 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: a visual gag. I felt like I was watching SNL 692 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: when she finally comes out and her hair is literally 693 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: like heavier than the rest of her body. 694 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 2: It's incredible. Also, there are parts of her performance they're 695 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 2: great like genuinely, genuinely very good, where I'm like I 696 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 2: was taken aback and I was like, oh, she's doing 697 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: some of the best acting in this movie. And then 698 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 2: she does the calling Sharon Stone horr yeah, and then 699 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 2: I'm like, well, I'm out and she sings Louie Louis 700 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 2: and that was crazy. I so wait, hold on. There 701 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 2: was that one scene where the band is like, come on, 702 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 2: do some drumming with us or whatever, and then all 703 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 2: of a sudden, Emilio Estevez is in the middle of 704 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,760 Speaker 2: this movie. Why this movie. 705 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: Really is like, you know, Julie and I both came 706 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: up in the Boston comedy scene. 707 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 2: Don't hold that again us. 708 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it reminds you it's like what we would 709 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: do if we were getting our friends together when we 710 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: were twenty six and putting together a comedy show. Except 711 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: they have the budget to make a giant, big budget 712 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,879 Speaker 1: Hollywood movie. I thought that the scene between Sharon Stone 713 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: and to me more. You know, yes, it had its 714 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: ups and downs, but I was like, finally, this is 715 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: two actresses having an actress off. They are also really 716 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: connecting with one another. Yes, they clearly each want to 717 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: win the scene, but they're also doing a really good 718 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: job working together. And I thought, so, here's a directing 719 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: decision I thought was good is as Demi Mour is 720 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: making her big monologue, the camera's actually not focused on her, 721 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: It's focused on Sharon Stone's reaction and Sharon Stone I 722 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: like that to doing some really good face acting and 723 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, this is great, Like we're onto 724 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: something here. 725 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: I have to say. Also, I really liked there was 726 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 2: a scene at the very beginning snaking through the kitchen 727 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 2: and it was very like the Long Shot and Good Fellas, 728 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 2: and I did like that scene. I thought that was cool. Yeah, yeah, 729 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 2: I think the Demi Mour and Sharon Stone I liked. 730 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 2: I liked that scene well enough. It veered into the 731 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 2: goofy as many of the scenes did. But I just 732 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 2: think that Sharon Stone is like so undeniable that she's 733 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: like bossing William H. Maysie around theatrically. Basically I loved 734 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 2: that scene. 735 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: There's you know, she's of course a hair dressed, her 736 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,959 Speaker 1: nail technician and extraordinary. She really does it all. And 737 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,720 Speaker 1: in the scene where she's confronting William H. Macy about 738 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: his affair, she's cutting his hair, and again, according to 739 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: unverified IMDb trivia, she was supposed to not actually cut 740 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: his hair, but in the moment she did put the 741 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: scissors on his hair and snip snips stone. 742 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, she actually caught it, and that really added 743 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 2: to his look of alarm. 744 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: Well, the IMDb trivia said it was like, so his 745 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: look of alarm was genuine, and I was like, okay, Well, 746 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: first of all, he didn't look that alarmed, and second 747 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: of all, he was also acting alarmed because he was 748 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: learning that his wife knew about his affair. 749 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love IMDb trivia. Never changed. 750 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: Great. Also, William H. Macy someone who has looked the 751 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: same for sixty years. 752 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 2: It's crazy. He's got a painting in the attic somewhere. 753 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: Well, you know, happy almost twentyth anniversary to the two 754 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: thousand and six movie Bobby Amelia Estevez. You know all 755 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,240 Speaker 1: my love. He has not made any super notable movies 756 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: since this. He went out on top. He went out 757 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: on top saying I will say this was a what 758 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: I would call a tepid flop. I mean, it did 759 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: make up its budget at a fourteen million dollar budget, 760 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: and it made globally made twenty million it didn't ruin 761 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: anyone's career, maybe him as a director, but everyone else 762 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: came out pretty much unscathed, you know, as someone who 763 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: both of us loved. Lindsay Lohan obviously were the exact 764 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: right age. It's a funny time capsule of this strange 765 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,359 Speaker 1: period in ze Land's career where she was between her 766 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,399 Speaker 1: peak and then her downfall. Gets around the same time 767 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: she did Very Home Companion. Yeah, and there's still some 768 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: light in her eyes. 769 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 2: And you can see her potential still bubbling towards the surface. 770 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 2: And is she our Bobby Kennedy? Maybe maybe? 771 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, she's really she's our Bobby Kennedy. And the 772 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: Oprah Special was her version of being assassinated. So we're 773 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: really stuck on the hope she represented in two thousand 774 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: and five. Okay, Julia, any final thoughts on Bobby the 775 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 1: film or even Bobby Kennedy the individual. 776 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I just really wanted to underscore the Louis 777 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 2: Louis of it. Yes, And my last thought is it 778 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 2: looked like the Elijah Wood character died at the end, 779 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 2: right Did it not look like he had died? He 780 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 2: was dead? 781 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: This is something they do not just with Elijah would 782 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: there are many characters were until the last title card, 783 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: I felt like we were supposed to think multiple people died. Yeah, 784 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: because you see people. I mean, Helen Hunt seems to 785 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: have been shot in the head. 786 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 2: I know she's bleeding from the damn. 787 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: Head, so keep going. 788 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 2: Anyways, one of the ending title cards says everyone else 789 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 2: who was shot survived and I was like, well, that 790 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 2: doesn't it doesn't look like that in the movie. Elijah 791 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 2: Wood looks the looks Lindsay Lungan is crying over his 792 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 2: body and he is not moving. 793 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: It's a strange form of emotional manipulation to truly make 794 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: the audience think a variety of characters they have follow 795 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: throughout the film are dead and then just casually places 796 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: his title card that was like, whoops, they survived, and 797 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: I'm glad they did. 798 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 2: I am too. 799 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: I would not want to live in a world where 800 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: Helen Hunt doesn't have the opportunity to explore different color 801 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: shoes during the rest of her socialite career and potentially, 802 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: you know, explore things past pop. 803 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 2: Art and really rub it in Charlie Sheen's face. That's right, 804 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 2: Andy Warhol is going to be a huge star. 805 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, Martin sheen, but I would love it if she 806 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: rubbed it in Charlie as well. Right well, Julia, I 807 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: could talk to you about this movie for hours. Hopefully 808 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,280 Speaker 1: next time we chat about a movie it'll be quality 809 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 1: away slightly better. But there's no one else I would 810 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: rather have on for this episode. 811 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 2: Oh God, bless I had the time in my life 812 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 2: as someone for whom Massachusetts is about a good half 813 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 2: of my personal astery. This is a huge day for me. 814 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: And if anyone has any questions about Massachusetts Catholicism, the 815 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: Kennedy's really just anything, please DM Julia. So that's it 816 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 1: for this week's episode. United States of Kennedy is hosted 817 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: by me George Severes. Original music by Joshua Topolski. Production 818 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,800 Speaker 1: help by Carmen lorenz Our. Executive producer is Jenna Cagele, 819 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: Research by Dave Ruce and Austin Thompson, Edited by Graham Gibson, 820 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: and mixed by Doug Bain. United States of Kennedy is 821 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Podcasts. Subscribe and follow United States 822 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: of Kennedy for all Things Kennedy each week