WEBVTT - Reaction to Jonathan Kuminga vs. Golden State Warriors saga, Steph Curry & Jimmy Butler impact 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:16.760 The volume. All right, Well, good to hoops tonight, you're 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:18.840 at the volume. Happy twosday everybody. Hope all of you 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.000 guys are having a great start to your week. It 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.320 feels good to be back from vacation. Have one last 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.360 little getaway before we start the season. I went up 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:28.320 to the Pacific Northwest again. I got to go to 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:30.440 a place I've never been before. We went to Olympic 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.120 National Park and I got to do My favorite highlight 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:35.320 of the trip was the Hurricane Ridge hike, where you 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:38.480 get to see like this crazy panorama. You see Mount 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.760 Olympus and all of the rest of the Olympic Range, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.960 you see the Strait of Wundafuca, you see Victoria, see 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:46.839 Port Angeles. And then we had a clear day so 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:48.720 in the distance you could see Mount Baker, which was 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:50.800 a volcano I've been trying to see for years and 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:53.559 it's just always been covered by clouds or it's been 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:55.560 you know, in front of some ridge that I couldn't 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:57.280 see over something. So it was just like a really 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.880 cool trip. Got to do some relaxing, spend some time 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.560 with some friends that were up in the Pacific Northwest. 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:05.200 Had some of my old friends from Tucson meet us 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:07.319 up there. It was a great little getaway, but you 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.199 can sense it. We are a week away from training camp. 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.080 And in addition to being a week away from training camp, 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.400 the Golden State Warriors only have nine basketball players on 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.600 their roster right now, as the Jonathan Kaminga situation has 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.080 stretched through this entire summer, and so I wanted to 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.400 kind of touch base there and talk about some of 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:26.360 the new intel that we got from Sam Sharania and 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:28.679 just kind of give my take on where this situation 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:30.720 is going at this point. And then at the tail 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:32.720 end of the show today, I've got four mail bag questions. 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.120 We're gonna do a couple of mini mail bags this week. 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:36.800 You guys know the joke before we get started. Subscribe 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:38.400 to Hoops and O YouTube channels. You don't miss any 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:40.480 more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at Underscore 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:42.800 JSNLT so you guys don't miss show announcements. So forget 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:44.479 about a podcast feed. Wherever you get your podcast under 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:46.520 Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.520 rating and a review on that front. Jackson's also doing 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:52.240 incredible work on our social media feeds on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.240 and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there, and then, 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.600 last but not least, keep dropping mail bag questions in 0:01:57.640 --> 0:01:59.200 the YouTube comments and we'll get to them in our 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.760 mail bags throughout the remainder of the season. All right, 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.600 let's talk some basketball. So the stalemate continues. We're just 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:07.640 one week away from the started training camp. The Warriors 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.360 have just nine players on the roster for next season. 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.359 Still a lot more exciting than what they were looking 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:15.800 at last season, given that Jimmy Butler is now in 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.680 the fold, and we saw a pretty extended stretch of 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:23.280 successful basketball from Steph, Jimmy and Raymond to end the season. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.080 And theoretically there are a bunch of players guys like 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.280 Al Horford and Seth Curry and d Anthony Melton who 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.600 are most likely going to sign with Golden State. But 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.040 they're all waiting around for this Jonathan Minga situation and 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.480 nobody is blinking. Not a week ago, Shams Ronnie came 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.600 out with the report talking about how the Warriors have 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.919 raised their offer to essentially twenty five million per year 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.079 for three years, with a team option on that third year, 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:50.840 essentially coming up to the annual value that Josh Kitty 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:55.480 got from Chicago, but obviously shorter term, less guaranteed money. 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.280 Sean's reported that Kaminga's camp has basically told the Warriors 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.320 will take the if you just flip the team option 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.720 into a player option, basically adding twenty five million in 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:09.040 guaranteed money to the deal. Essentially, if he takes the 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.920 deal the Warriors are offering and he doesn't perform, either 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.560 for them or for whoever trades for him, there's a 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.040 version of this where the team declines the option and 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.360 he gets capped out at that fifty million, and he 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.560 could be looking at much smaller deals for the remainder 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.600 of his career. That's a potential risk that Kaminga would 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.080 be taking in that situation. Whereas for the Warriors, if 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:32.200 they give the player option at seventy five million guaranteed, 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.960 it suddenly becomes a more difficult contract to trade if 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.720 Jonathan Kaminga doesn't look good for the first half of 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.240 the season, and anybody who wants to trade for them 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:42.120 now has to consider the fact that they could be 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:46.960 paying twenty five million dollars for Jonathan Kaminga three seasons 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.000 from now. That could affect his value, and that essentially 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.240 is the sticking point, and Kaminga's camp is basically looking 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:55.280 at it saying like, hey, if Josh Gidty can get 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.480 twenty five million for four years, this is a fair 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.960 price for Jonathan. Now my feeling on like the value 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:06.680 of the contract is complicated. Do I want Jonathan Kaminga 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.920 on my team at twenty five million per year if 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.360 I'm trying to win the title this year? No, I 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:16.480 don't think he's in that phase of his career yet. 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.279 I don't think he's good enough in like a starring 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.400 role to justify the money, and I don't think he 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.080 can really focus his talents into a smaller role to 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.640 help a serious team win. Yet. Now, would I take 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.000 Jonathan Kaminga on my team for twenty five million a 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.200 year if I was in the middle of a rebuild 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.640 and I was like actively hunting for talent to build 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:41.320 around for the future, Yeah, I would. Let's take Josh 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.880 Gittty for example. I think Josh Getty's an intriguing player. 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.800 He's improved substantially as a three point shooter. I think 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:51.400 he's like a decent half court shot creator, just big 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:55.039 guard who can create advantages for his team. But I 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.400 also don't think that a team that's gonna pay Josh 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.080 Gitty twenty five million per year and to put the 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.800 ball in his hands essentially as a number one option 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.320 or number two option, I don't think that team's gonna 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.240 be competing for a title. I don't think Josh Gitty 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:15.080 has a ton of like untapped upside right like, I 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.640 don't think he's got the potential to become Luca Light 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:21.159 in five years. I don't. I don't think that's in 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.200 the cards for Josh Gitty. And so that's just too 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.040 much salary to tie up in a player who's at 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.120 his best with the ball in his hands, but just 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:30.400 not nearly as good as the other guys who will 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.000 have the ball in their hands around the league in 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.640 high volume. Last year, despite the flashes that he showed, 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.279 Josh Gutty was less than a point per possession including 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.680 passes in pick and roll in like over six hundred reps. 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:47.800 He's not flashing some serious, untapped, like all NBA ball 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:51.720 handler upside. So even if we think Josh Gitty might 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:55.279 be a better player than Jonathan Kminga right now, I 0:05:55.400 --> 0:06:00.520 actually do think Jonathan Kaminga has real untapped upside I 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:02.760 don't think he's gonna be an All NBA player or anything. 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.280 That seems to be a long shot at this point, 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.520 but I do think he could make an All Star 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:11.600 team or two. In fact, like if I was stuck 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.680 in basketball purgatory the way the Chicago Bulls are, I 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.680 would rather be taking my chances with a guy like Kaminga. 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:21.360 Give him the ball a ton, you won't be as 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.279 good in the short term, but let's see how he 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.760 can develop. Let's see if he becomes a player that 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.200 can make an All Star team. He's got upside. I 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.840 think there's actually value there. So to be clear, like 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.000 if I was in a position where I was rebuilding, 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.720 I think that's a fair contract price for a guy 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:43.840 like Jonathan Kaminga. The problem is, there was no obvious 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.760 team this summer that had the cap space for Johnathan 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.719 Kaminga and had that type of role available, And the 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.520 Warriors don't have that type of role available. So now 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:54.920 the Warriors are in a buy. They either have to 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:59.479 risk signing Kaminga into that type of salary slot, or 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.200 they have to try rate him back and take similarly 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:06.279 flawed salary, and it appears that they're not willing to 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.120 do so. All we've all heard they don't want Malik Monk. 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:12.320 I like Malink. I think he'd be a good fit 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.880 in the Golden State system. Like they need scoring pop, 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.800 they need guys who can like really be dynamic coming 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:19.800 off of dribble handoffs. I think a guy like Malik 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.000 Monk could do that. But he's got another sixty million 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.440 dollars on his deal and the Warriors don't want to 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.200 take that on. And this is where I think the 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:31.000 Warriors need a little bit of a reality check. Even 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.640 if you signed Jonathan Kaminga to a team friendly deal, 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.000 like what's let's say that Kaminga accepted their first offer, 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.680 which the reports said were like two for forty, so 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.080 twenty million per for two years, and that's not even 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.000 the offer anymore. The line has moved. The line has 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.520 moved to two for fifty, essentially with that team option 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.120 on the back end. But like, even if he even 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:50.960 if you did sign him at two for forty, it's 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.000 not like Kaminga is gonna suddenly become some massively valuable 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.000 asset that's going to return a haul in a trade, 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:01.640 like a bunch of good players and picks. Kaminga on 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.600 his new deal, regardless of whether the Warriors signed him 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.200 to it or someone else signs him to it. It's 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.480 somewhat risky because it's going to be twenty plus million 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.200 with multiple years for a young player that right now 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.920 isn't very good, but that has a lot of upside, 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:21.720 that has talent. He's flawed, though, there is risk there 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.120 no matter what when you're taking a large salary slot 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.120 like yeah, So Malik Monk to me is just a 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:31.160 similar type of risk. It's a little different in the 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.559 sense that he's older and he's more of a known commodity. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.080 But Malik Monk right now can do more for the 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:41.400 Warriors than Jonathan Kaminga can. So he's a risky contract 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:46.280 with real value in the immediate future, as opposed to 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.320 Jonathan Minga, who if you did happen to get on 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.720 a deal like that, is also going to tie up 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:54.840 your books for multiple years and has more risk. And 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:56.480 there's a version of this where he's not even in 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.520 your rotation when things matter. We know, we just saw 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:01.760 that last year when you threw him on the court 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:05.200 after Steph Curry got hurt. So essentially what I'm saying 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:10.959 is Kaminga's value is Kaminga's value right now? It's Malik 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:15.960 Monk and a protected first round pick. I don't think 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.160 that if you somehow signed Jonathan Kaminga to a team 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:21.360 friendly deal, like let's say you get him on that 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:23.480 deal that you're offering the two plus one with the 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.120 team option. I don't think he's suddenly going to pull 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:30.560 back some awesome young player and an unprotected first round pick. 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.640 I don't think he's going not unless you somehow manage 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.360 to rehab his value. And we just have such a 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.320 large sample size now of him being a clearly clunky 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:45.839 fit with the team. Like I've heard the Warriors want 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.640 Keegan Murray in the deal. Why would the Kings do that. 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.840 Keegan's a much better player than Jonathan Kaminga. That's a 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.440 different class of asset that you would be bringing back 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.160 in a deal like that. Your chance to turn Jonathan 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:03.959 Kamina into real asset return was two years ago, when 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.720 he was still on his rookie contract with multiple years remaining, 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:13.280 with more of an unknown regarding his upside, and you 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.400 were much more likely to get something like a really 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.920 good young player and a unprotected first round pick for 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:24.520 jk that time has passed. He's no longer a high 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.720 value asset. He's gonna be making twenty plus million in 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:32.520 the future. So my thing is, like I would have 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:36.319 just taken them Elik Monk deal. I think he addresses 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:42.360 a legitimate need with that scoring pop. He's already been 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.560 kind of functioning in a five out offense with a 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:49.839 passing folkrum big like Demanta Sabonis. You have a track 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.240 record as the Warriors of turning like mediocre defensive guards 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:55.079 into guys that can fill a role like I thought 0:10:55.120 --> 0:11:00.720 Buddy Yield was fine defensively last year. Monk's a better 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.920 player than him. You have a specific need for more 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.200 dynamic play at the guard spot in your rotation. He 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.199 brings athleticism. I think he's a look. I rooted for 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:13.400 him when he was with the Lakers. The dude's competitive, 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.160 he plays hard. He's not perfect, He's got his flaws. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.199 He's small on defense, he can be a little helter skelter, 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.160 and he can get out of position sometimes. But again, 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.680 you're bringing him into a much smarter organization than where 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:31.120 he's been in years past. And I get it. It's 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.720 a protected first round pick, and those aren't worth as 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.720 much as they used to be, but it's still a 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.839 positive asset. You're turning Kaminga into a player that can 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.319 help you in the short term. Yeah, Okay, Malik Monk's 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.040 got twenty million on the books. Three years from now, 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:49.320 who cares. You're most likely blowing the team up at 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.600 that point. This this feels like very much like a 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.560 two year window where you're trying to make this happen 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.719 and you get a positive asset in the form of 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.959 pick that you can then either package in the middle 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:04.920 of the season for an all in type of move 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:09.760 or you can hold for the future rebuild. I just 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.080 don't think they're gonna get more down the line. I 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:18.280 don't think there's some substantially better offer in February, So 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.040 you might as well go into camp with your roster set, 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:24.120 give him a league Monk, a chance to really learn 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:30.319 the system, give him a full training camp. But I mean, 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.200 all indications are that that deal is dead on the 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:38.520 Warriors front. They either want the pick protections removed or 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.319 they want a better player in, like a guy like 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.680 Keegan Murray. And so it just feels like the latest 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.520 example of the Warriors passing the buck on these young 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.280 players on the situation with these young players, which is 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.200 something they've been doing for years now in this era, 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.280 and it's just unfortunate because it just feels foolish for 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:02.600 everybody involved now. And honestly, like, even if the Warriors 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.880 do somehow, let's say they flip it to a player 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:08.280 option and you give Kaminga the three for seventy five, 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:11.840 it's just gonna be the exact same situation this year, 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:14.760 him being a clunky fit in and out of the rotation, 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.920 weak trade offers coming in return that involves some sort 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.040 of flawed player coming back and some sort of protected 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:27.199 draft asset. I think there's just a little bit of 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:29.720 a reality check that Golden State needs at this point. 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:32.680 All right, let's get to some mailback questions and then 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.719 we'll get out of here for today. 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Gambling problem called 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.480 one eight hundred gambler in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee, 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:10.280 or Virginia. Simple question, what's the highest you could see 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.360 jokics climb all time? Such a tough guy to put 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.840 up against other all timers, particularly bigs, because of his 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.560 lack of rim protection as a center. Sometimes I feel 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:21.120 you're almost better off not judging him as a big, 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.280 But I truly think he finished his top ten all time. 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:24.760 Keep up the good work, Jason, love the show. Thank 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:26.800 you so much for the kind words. I think the 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.120 point you're making about him being viewed as a center 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:33.160 is very interesting because it's not so much that I 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.960 don't judge him as a big as it is that 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.920 I just judge him more as an offensive engine. Right Like, 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.040 for instance, when you're talking about Larry Bird all Time. 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:46.160 Larry Bird was a guy who certainly wasn't a bad 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:50.080 defensive player, but he was known for being the offensive 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:54.800 engine of the Boston Celtics. Whereas you look at the 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.040 centers in the all time list, the Chema lodged One's 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.480 Bill Russell. When you're looking at those guys, you're looking 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:05.040 at them as defensive fulcrums, which obviously Jokic is not. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.680 But as we've talked about, like Steph Curry, for me, 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:09.880 ranks really high. I think he's the fifth best perimeter 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.360 player of all time, somewhere in the back half of 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.040 the top ten if you include centers. Steph is really 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:16.720 high for me. And that's not a guy that you're 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:21.320 anchoring a defense around. So like I see, Jokic is 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.480 fitting more than mold of Steph as like a guy 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.480 that you're putting on the list as one of the 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.080 great offensive players to ever play the game. I think 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.160 he's personally the best offensive player I've ever seen play 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.520 the game. The problem is with the top ten lists 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.280 or all time lists, is you're running into some insane resumes. 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.520 You talk about Lebron with four championships, Michael Jordan with 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.560 six championships. You talked about Kobe, Like when you start 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.080 to look at Kobe's resume, and I think he's just 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.760 become a profoundly underrated player over time. The dude's won 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.760 five titles and like, okay, yeah he won three. With Shaq, 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.480 he won two in a row. How many players in 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.880 NBA his have won multiple consecutive championships. That's a real 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:09.320 accomplishment on that resume. You look at Steph with with 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.640 his four championships, you look at Larry Bird with his three, 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.240 you look at Magic Johnson with his five. You're running 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:18.520 into these crazy lists. The Chema Lagoon in the middle 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.760 of the nineties, rips off back to back championships, looks 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:23.560 like the best player in the league a couple of 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.320 years in a row. It's just the resumes get so 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.600 insane that it feels like it's going to be tough 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:31.760 for Jokic to move too much higher. Now, do I 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:33.720 think that you have to look at it in terms 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.120 of just counting championships? Of course not. It's way more 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.960 complicated than that. The game of basketball is way more 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:43.240 complicated than that. But in order for Jokic to get 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.880 into that top ten and to really entrench himself there, 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.639 I think he's gonna have to win two more And like, 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.120 it's just feels like a pretty short window for the Nuggets, 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.960 right now, you'd have to win this year and probably 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.639 within the following two years after that, and that's just 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:01.439 a lot to ask, So, like, do I think he 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.080 has that potential? Certainly I could. Could I see universe 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.600 where Yokich wins the next two championships? Of course he can. 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:10.360 It's just really hard. The league is super deep, there's 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.000 all these young players coming up, there's so many good 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:17.320 teams right now. So it's just it feels to me 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:20.000 like a long shot that he actually gets into the 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.560 top ten because of the strength of the resumes that 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:24.800 he'll have to cross in order to get there. But 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.760 certainly it's a possibility. It's just you start looking up, 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:29.280 you start looking at the guys at the top of 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:31.359 that list, and it's just an insane set of talent 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.359 that accomplished a lot in this league. Next question more 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:37.439 of a philosophical one here, Jason. You obviously have a 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.280 pension for offensive gurus and orchestrators like Luka and Jokic 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.800 over high level scorers, and that's fine, but don't forget 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.680 the last two champions were led by players that were 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.040 distinctly not offensive hubs, but were excellent at what they did. 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.200 Shay and tatem And before Jokic and twenty three, and 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.320 both Giannis and Kawhi led their teams to championships also 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.440 without being offensive hubs. Could there be an actual ceiling 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.879 for teams which are led by do it all offensive hubs. 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:04.720 So here's the thing. When I'm talking about the foundational 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.840 player that you're building a team around, we're talking about 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:14.199 it within the context of starting from scratch. Ultimately, basketball 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.800 is a team sport, and as you start to look 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:24.160 through those situations, they were kind of roster abnormalities, right 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:28.679 Like Kawhi Entard won the title with the twenty nineteen 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:33.399 Raptors because they were a team that literally was ripping 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:38.000 off sixty win seasons with Demarta Rosen as their best player. 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:44.480 They successfully flip for Kawhi, and Kawhi is able to 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.600 push them over the top into winning the championship. That 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.640 is not starting with Kawhi and then building a championship 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.920 team around him. He was effectively a mercenary that became 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.760 the tip of the spear and helped them win the 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:02.240 title Oklahoma City. He has an insane amount of talent 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.000 because they were a beneficiary of one of the most 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:08.680 lopside in retrospect lopsided trades in NBA history. At the time, 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.199 obviously it felt normal, but as we look back, you 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.639 look at they got the better player in the trade 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.439 and an insane amount of draft assets that has allowed 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:20.359 them to pile up an insane amount of uniquely talented 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:25.080 players that you don't typically see on a roster. Shake 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:29.400 Gilders Alexander has pushed them over the top into being champions. 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:34.520 But that is a unique roster situation. When I'm talking about, 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.520 like in Boston, sane thing, like they literally had five 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.879 players who on the open market would fetch north of 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:45.480 thirty million dollars a year. So yes, you can't. You 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:50.280 can win a championship with any archetype of player, but 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:55.920 if I'm starting from scratch in a vacuum, I want 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:59.159 to have it be a player that is easiest to 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.919 build around and for me if I am for me, 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:06.880 Like one of my overarching basketball philosophies is that offense 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:12.960 flows down from advantage creation. Defense flows down, and you 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.920 obviously need defensive talent, but defensive defense has a lot 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:18.760 to do with coaching. Defense has a lot to do 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:20.840 with buy in. Defense has a lot to do with 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.720 individual players from the start of the season, building connectivity 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:28.320 in their defensive rotations. We have seen so many examples 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:34.280