Speaker 1: Your should not be gardening, as if Martha Stewart is
Speaker 1: looking over your shoulder saying, I wouldn't do that. Where
Speaker 1: are you? Dan Hinckley? Everyone is a plantsman, the plantsman
Speaker 1: in my mind. He's an award winning world renowned plant explorer,
Speaker 1: a horticulturist and author. He has circled the globe searching
Speaker 1: for rare and exotic plant species, and we'll hear from
Speaker 1: him how many he has found. He is the original
Speaker 1: orchid thief. And I first met Dan many years ago
Speaker 1: when we began creating magazine stories together. I've had the
Speaker 1: pleasure of spending time in the beautiful gardens that he's created.
Speaker 1: He's a close friend and someone that I greatly admire.
Speaker 1: Hi Dan, and welcome to my podcast. Martha's great to
Speaker 1: see not in person, but it's good to see you.
Speaker 1: Look terrific, Oh so do you? And I love you.
Speaker 1: I love your background that very beautiful painting. Dan is
Speaker 1: sitting in his architect designed house, designed by his husband Bob,
Speaker 1: and the house is full of treasures. Lots of local artisans,
Speaker 1: lots of local craftsmen created beautiful, beautiful backgrounds for every
Speaker 1: single view in the house and Uh, that's who who
Speaker 1: painted that painting, Dan, Let's Alfredo Arguin, who's a Mexican
Speaker 1: Northwest painter. He's he's an amazing guy years old. I
Speaker 1: think it's very beautiful. Well, Dan Hinckley, plant explorer, the
Speaker 1: original orchid thief. When I read this essay in the
Speaker 1: New Yorker magazine by Susan Orlean about the orchid Thief,
Speaker 1: all I could think of was Dan Hinckley. Uh, Dan
Speaker 1: Hinckley has traveled far and wide, climbing mountains, swimming across rivers.
Speaker 1: You have to tell us a little about these trips.
Speaker 1: Was the most extraordinary plant exploring trip that you have
Speaker 1: ever taken? I would probably say Northern Myan, mar back
Speaker 1: in two thousand and thirteen. I really felt like I
Speaker 1: was on a path that few had taken, and saw
Speaker 1: plants that few had seen, and was able to bring
Speaker 1: seeds back. No orchids, Martha, I don't take orchid orchids.
Speaker 1: Is that just a preference you don't take orchids? Or
Speaker 1: is it a a rule that you don't take orchids? Why? Why?
Speaker 1: Why don't you take orchids? There's very stiff international regulations
Speaker 1: about taking orchids from the wild because of the profound
Speaker 1: impact that they've their populations have had from people collecting them.
Speaker 1: Theyre you know, such collectibles back especially during the Victorian ages,
Speaker 1: and enormous numbers were taken and populations were affected, so
Speaker 1: they are sights protected. Um, however, I can bring seed
Speaker 1: of orchids back and we propagate those in the test tube,
Speaker 1: But no plants. What about tissue cultures. Can you take
Speaker 1: a tissue culture of a plant in the wild, Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: you could. You could take a cutting of a plant
Speaker 1: I suppose to bring back for um, the embryos or
Speaker 1: the rescue of the maristam, I should say, and we've
Speaker 1: used that, uh, that technique, but especially with seeds that
Speaker 1: are not fully ripened. So if I were to find
Speaker 1: a seed of some species in the wild that hadn't
Speaker 1: I've reached its viability yet for sewing, then we can
Speaker 1: take those undeveloped seeds and raise them in the test tube.
Speaker 1: It's called embryo rescue, which has worked. I have an
Speaker 1: iris and blossom in my garden right now from northeastern India.
Speaker 1: It's a brand new species that hasn't been described yet,
Speaker 1: but that came from embryo rescue of the undeveloped seeds. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the me and our trip was the one that
Speaker 1: you really found to be the most fascinating, the most unusual,
Speaker 1: the most distant. How high did you go? It was
Speaker 1: a trip up high on a mountain. How what was
Speaker 1: the altitude? Well, relatively not about fifteen thou feet is
Speaker 1: what we made it too. And that was the top
Speaker 1: of the mountain that we were on, So you know,
Speaker 1: relatively speaking, that's not terribly high. But um, if I
Speaker 1: get much higher than that, then I run out of
Speaker 1: plants and I'm just on rock and snow. So it
Speaker 1: was high enough for me. It was. You would have
Speaker 1: loved that truck. I mean it was true mole villages
Speaker 1: first and then up on the side of a mountain
Speaker 1: for days, and it was just absolutely thrilling. And how
Speaker 1: do you arrange such a trip? I mean, I love
Speaker 1: to garden, as as I think everybody listening knows, but
Speaker 1: I have never really been on a on a exploration
Speaker 1: trip like you go on looking for specific plant material.
Speaker 1: Do you know before you go to a place like
Speaker 1: me and more that that you were going to find
Speaker 1: plants that no one has ever seen before, or no
Speaker 1: one has cultivated before or do you just hope, Well,
Speaker 1: you do hope, and you know you have to make
Speaker 1: you also have to have seeds waiting for you. So
Speaker 1: it's that's sort of a crap shoot in itself, because
Speaker 1: if there's no seeds that that year, you have to
Speaker 1: go back. I equate it, and I'm going to stop
Speaker 1: and say, you know, I've invited you on numerous clicking
Speaker 1: trips with being oh, I know, and and I have
Speaker 1: never I've never had the time, my schedule at that
Speaker 1: particular moment to go on a trip with Dan, and
Speaker 1: I regret it. I regret it. And every time I
Speaker 1: think about you, I regret not going on that that
Speaker 1: one fantastic trip. So we'll we'll do it someday. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I equated to going to the grocery store when you
Speaker 1: go on these trips that you have your list of
Speaker 1: things that you think you're gonna buy, and then you
Speaker 1: see things in the in the vegetable and fruit section
Speaker 1: that you had no idea. We're there, we're ripe, and
Speaker 1: and you um, you go into a different direction. And
Speaker 1: that's primarily what these trips are. Like, I have an
Speaker 1: idea what what plants are going to be there and
Speaker 1: hope they're gonna have seeds. But then of course the
Speaker 1: full picture is so much more rich and opulent than
Speaker 1: you ever expected, and each trip becomes so much more
Speaker 1: than what you had hoped for. And that's so that's
Speaker 1: so encouraging. So you went that me and Mars the
Speaker 1: most extraordinary trip you've been on. What's the What trip
Speaker 1: did you discover the most plants on? I would say
Speaker 1: the the area of extreme northeast India, the Arunachal Pradesh
Speaker 1: has been the richest area that I've ever traveled in.
Speaker 1: And the area of northern Vietnam, which I just got
Speaker 1: back from. I know, I was so happy to hear
Speaker 1: that you were traveling. I was just thrilled that you
Speaker 1: were on another trip. What did you find there? Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, Um, I know you love pogonias, and I
Speaker 1: came back with about ten new species of pogonia. For me,
Speaker 1: I'm not certain what the species are yet, maybe they're
Speaker 1: brand new. They were fantastic. So these pogonias that you
Speaker 1: found in northern Vietnam. Now, are you the only plant
Speaker 1: explorer going on a trip like that, or there are
Speaker 1: other other people who are traveling to these remote places
Speaker 1: to find new and brilliant plants. Oh, there's there's a
Speaker 1: good number of people out there on both men and women, Martha,
Speaker 1: they're doing excellent work. I'm not certainly the only one,
Speaker 1: and I'm not certainly the best of them either. Um.
Speaker 1: There there are people out there doing it, but fewer
Speaker 1: and fewer. I'm afraid it's it's becoming more difficult politically
Speaker 1: to get into countries and get permissions to look at
Speaker 1: their plants and bring back seed. So, uh yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's not going to become easier, I'm afraid in the future.
Speaker 1: So that trip that you and I are going to
Speaker 1: take better happen pretty quickly. Okay. So, so imagine a
Speaker 1: trip that you still really want to go on that
Speaker 1: I would love to go on. Also, what trip would
Speaker 1: that be? I think I would take you up the
Speaker 1: Mulla Coola River valley the Aroun in northeastern Nepal all
Speaker 1: the way up to the very border with China to
Speaker 1: a little village called Topla. It's about a ten day hike,
Speaker 1: and I know how much you love to hike, and
Speaker 1: I think that you would just have the time of
Speaker 1: your life. The most beautiful territory remote villages and still
Speaker 1: living life as they have for centuries. So that's one
Speaker 1: that I would take you on. Okay, that sounds good.
Speaker 1: And where do you where do you sleep? Do you
Speaker 1: take sleeping bags in tents? Take tents along the way
Speaker 1: and uh? And you generally have a crew that brings
Speaker 1: you coffee to your tent in the morning before you're
Speaker 1: even now you're sleeping back. That's the best part of
Speaker 1: it all. Because it's cold. It's cold. Okay, what's the
Speaker 1: altitude there? You can get up to nearly twenty feet
Speaker 1: on some of the passes, so you don't want to
Speaker 1: stay up there. Of course at night it's very cold
Speaker 1: and snowy still, but um, you know, you you go
Speaker 1: up and over and then back down into the valleys
Speaker 1: where it's where it's still temperate and and the plants
Speaker 1: are growing. So I don't have a map of India
Speaker 1: in front of me. Is this anywhere near catching Junga
Speaker 1: where I did go when one spring early early? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that's a that's a very appropriate question because in
Speaker 1: Nepal we're on the west side of catching Chenga. And
Speaker 1: then if you're going to northern India into Sachim you're
Speaker 1: on the east side of Catching Chunka, so that that's
Speaker 1: where I was. I was right on the east side
Speaker 1: I was. I went from northern Sakhim as far north
Speaker 1: as we could go trying to get to base camp
Speaker 1: of Catching Junga, and we were blizzarded out. One morning
Speaker 1: we woke up we had has this happened to you?
Speaker 1: We were in our tent. Uh. I was with Sandy
Speaker 1: Pittman and a very unlikely fellow climber, Um and it
Speaker 1: was Um, Donald Trump's sister in law. And she had
Speaker 1: the last name Trump, and everyone in India thought she
Speaker 1: was because she had a taj mahal. In New Jersey,
Speaker 1: they thought she was a princess. And she got sick.
Speaker 1: One night we went to bed in our tent. She
Speaker 1: slept in the middle because she wasn't feeling too well,
Speaker 1: and Sandy and I slepped on either side of her
Speaker 1: in our sleeping bags. And the morning Um that the
Speaker 1: disaster happened. We woke up and I couldn't breathe. We
Speaker 1: were about seventeen thousand feet at this time, and I
Speaker 1: couldn't breathe, and Uh, snow, about three ft of snow
Speaker 1: had collapsed. Our tent onto our faces. So that happens, right,
Speaker 1: Did you ever have that happened to you right in
Speaker 1: the same area that you're talking about in North India
Speaker 1: waking up with our our tents completely collapsed on top
Speaker 1: of us from unexpected heavy snow. So then this happened
Speaker 1: in the in the pall as well. When you get
Speaker 1: up high, did you take yaks with you? No, I've
Speaker 1: never I've never trekked with yaks. Though you come across
Speaker 1: the large yak trains as they're as they're you know,
Speaker 1: crossing those mountain passes, so you you associate with a
Speaker 1: lot of yaks, but I've never traveled with one. We
Speaker 1: had yaks with us. We had about five yaks carrying
Speaker 1: all our supplies and they were buried under the snow.
Speaker 1: They were buried also, but they sort of liked it.
Speaker 1: But Blaine is Blaine Trump. She was married to Robert
Speaker 1: Trump at the time, Donald's brother, and she uh, she
Speaker 1: we had to leave because she was ill and also
Speaker 1: because of the snow. But before the snow happened, I
Speaker 1: noticed for miles and miles and miles on the trail
Speaker 1: before us, what were these small brown shrubs. No, lee
Speaker 1: sort of a deciduous plant, and they and and there
Speaker 1: were miles of them. And what do you think those
Speaker 1: plants were? They hadn't come into bud or bloom. I
Speaker 1: think you were in with barberries. At that altitude. It
Speaker 1: would have been miles and miles of of alpine barbarry
Speaker 1: of berberous. But there's also alpine rhododendrons. That's what they were.
Speaker 1: They were. They were rhododendrons. And the guide showed me
Speaker 1: pictures of what it was going to look like in
Speaker 1: three weeks from when we were there, and I said, well,
Speaker 1: what are we doing here now? I should have been
Speaker 1: here three weeks hence, because those rhododendrons were the bright,
Speaker 1: bright magenta rhododendrons had not yet bloom. So I was sorry,
Speaker 1: And uh, but it was. It was an extraordinary trip.
Speaker 1: And on that trip we did see wild orchids, and
Speaker 1: we saw wild begonias, and we saw all kinds of
Speaker 1: amazing things. And all I could think of at the
Speaker 1: time was where's Dan Hinckley. He could be telling me
Speaker 1: what everything is. But uh, but that goes back, that
Speaker 1: goes back quite a while. Dan. It's extraordinary to do
Speaker 1: what you do and and how did it come about?
Speaker 1: How did you become this first of all, this amazing
Speaker 1: and walking encyclopedia of plant material And when did it start?
Speaker 1: Did you always know you wanted to study plants and
Speaker 1: collect plants? Uh? Well, I can remember being fascinated by
Speaker 1: them as early as I can remember planting seeds with
Speaker 1: my dad, squash and boards and morning glories. Uh. And
Speaker 1: as a young kid, I remember hearing about plants in Michigan.
Speaker 1: They might have been rare or seldom seen, and I
Speaker 1: would make it a quest to go out and find
Speaker 1: that plant. So it started in my own backyard, in
Speaker 1: the acreage realm our family farm, but then further afield,
Speaker 1: a little bit at a time. And and you know,
Speaker 1: like all passions, Martha, we we add to our knowledge
Speaker 1: bit by bit, So we don't start with a an
Speaker 1: enormous um encyclopedic knowledge about anything. Look at how much
Speaker 1: you know about so many things about cooking, et cetera.
Speaker 1: But you add to that repertoire, one one plant, one
Speaker 1: spice at a time, and and after a while you
Speaker 1: do seem to know a lot. I think, Um, that's
Speaker 1: what That's where passions lead us. But your memory is
Speaker 1: so impeccable when it comes to it. I mean I
Speaker 1: can remember Blaine Trump's name for Heaven's sake, and and uh,
Speaker 1: but I and I haven't seen her about seventeen years.
Speaker 1: But but you remember every single species, every single cultivar,
Speaker 1: every single genus of every single plant of every single everywhere,
Speaker 1: and uh, and that is that is just a talent
Speaker 1: that very few of us have, really, uh have that
Speaker 1: encyclopedic knowledge. And your books are like encyclopedias. Your catalogs
Speaker 1: are like encyclopedias for the plant person. Well, um, I'm
Speaker 1: the same way. I I remember plant names. The people
Speaker 1: names are are hopeless with me. So um, you know,
Speaker 1: we we jettison those things that were less interested in
Speaker 1: and retain those that we are. So I don't find
Speaker 1: it all that remarkable. As with all things, it's you know,
Speaker 1: self learning is what takes us that that last mile
Speaker 1: to really understanding what we do. And that's the case
Speaker 1: with me and gardening. So did you start your garden
Speaker 1: at Adherents? What Harnswood was Dan's first famous garden and
Speaker 1: that's in uh in Indianella right in Gianola, Kingston. Harnswood
Speaker 1: is in Kingston. When did you start Harronswood Garden. We
Speaker 1: began that on September one, is when we took possession
Speaker 1: of that property and Robert and I started taking swipes
Speaker 1: at that land and not really knowing what we were
Speaker 1: creating at the time, but no one behold it's still
Speaker 1: very very much intact and um now owned by the
Speaker 1: Port Gambles Glalum Indian tribe as a public garden. So
Speaker 1: pleased with that. And we're accepting visitors five days a week.
Speaker 1: So amazing what thirty five years later is still happening
Speaker 1: in that garden. And all those very small plants that
Speaker 1: I put in, you remember those small little plants you
Speaker 1: purchased from Herons would so many towering trees now so incredible.
Speaker 1: If you have the chance listeners to venture to Kingston, Washington. Uh,
Speaker 1: this garden is certainly a site to behold and a
Speaker 1: place to learn. Herron's would named after the Heron who
Speaker 1: lived near the property right right flew off flew off
Speaker 1: the pond the night we opened the gate and took
Speaker 1: possession of it. So the land got its name that night.
Speaker 1: And how many acres is Harron's would now fifteen acres
Speaker 1: and it's changed remarkably since you've last seen it during
Speaker 1: COVID years. Martha, I can't wait for you to come
Speaker 1: to visit. We have a brand new stumpery about an
Speaker 1: acre and a half in size, which is um to
Speaker 1: showcase ferns and fern allies. It's absolutely beautiful and we've
Speaker 1: expanded our woodland twice the amount and have now a
Speaker 1: rock garden as well, so a lot of things happening there.
Speaker 1: It's an extraordinary place to visit in a group efforts,
Speaker 1: so I hope people will come to see it. What
Speaker 1: is a stumpery stumpery um, Well, it was quite the
Speaker 1: craze in the in Victorian Victorian times in England where
Speaker 1: people started collecting curious stumps from around the countryside and
Speaker 1: bringing them into their gardens and then planting ferns, which
Speaker 1: was the plant of choice during that time as well.
Speaker 1: You know, the praise of ferns, especially during the Victorian
Speaker 1: Age was exceptional and so the um fernrees became relatively
Speaker 1: popular in England, in the UK and Europe during that time,
Speaker 1: and then they've fallen out of fashion, but there seems
Speaker 1: to be a rebirth of this style of gardening and
Speaker 1: we had so many stumps to choose from. We brought
Speaker 1: in about fifty old growth stumps from around our region
Speaker 1: that were donated to us and have planted about three
Speaker 1: hundred different species of ferns throughout the stumpery. So it's
Speaker 1: pretty amazing. Um, I can't wait to show it to you. Oh,
Speaker 1: I can't wait. I am not seeing a picture of it.
Speaker 1: Has anybody done his story on it? Very few. I
Speaker 1: think it's maybe it's time for the magazine to do
Speaker 1: a piece of collaboration. We must do a collaborative stumpy.
Speaker 1: Are they are these stumps with the roots attached or
Speaker 1: these stumps just sawn off pieces of trunk. Well, we
Speaker 1: we tried to keep the base of each stump attached,
Speaker 1: so you know, we could plant in between those buttresses
Speaker 1: the roots going out. But for the most part the
Speaker 1: root systems had rotted away. But there's some beautiful, very
Speaker 1: structural stumps of cedar, especially, and they still you can
Speaker 1: still see the springboards in them, those notches that they
Speaker 1: used to sadly cut them all down during the the
Speaker 1: logging era here in the Pacific Northwest. It's some and
Speaker 1: of course there's a they acted in as nurse logs,
Speaker 1: as well, so there are naturally growing ferns and huckleberries
Speaker 1: on each of the stumps as well. And how big
Speaker 1: a garden is a stumpery? How many acres? It's about
Speaker 1: an acre and a half, so it's relatively large. And
Speaker 1: we just have constructed a weeping wall, if if you remember,
Speaker 1: I have not forgotten trying to convince you to do that.
Speaker 1: And in Skylands in Maine, and we've just done a
Speaker 1: small weeping wall. It's not gonna be as magnificent as yours,
Speaker 1: but it's gonna allow us to all those wet, lived
Speaker 1: loving ferns and and associated plants in the next and
Speaker 1: crannies of this dripping wall. So it's gonna be very fun.
Speaker 1: Is Dan Hinckley cannot resist when he visits a new property.
Speaker 1: And he came to visit my beautiful, beautiful property up
Speaker 1: in Mount Dessert Island right near Akkadia National Park. This
Speaker 1: was quite a while ago, and he saw this one
Speaker 1: granite cliff and he said, that has to be a
Speaker 1: weeping wall garden. And it's waiting for you. It's waiting
Speaker 1: for you to come and and tell me how to
Speaker 1: do it, because we have the water, we have the
Speaker 1: cliff we have the mosses, and now we need Dan
Speaker 1: Hinckley to help design this weeping wall. Um, and you're
Speaker 1: gonna be thrilled with what I'm planning to do with
Speaker 1: a lot of the area there. It's I have so
Speaker 1: many plans. I don't have enough time for all the
Speaker 1: plans I have thought about. But that's what every gardener
Speaker 1: face is right time. Uh, And it's uh, the faster
Speaker 1: you plant, the better it is, because plants take a
Speaker 1: while to grow and mature. You taught me that. And
Speaker 1: how long did it take to get a garden to
Speaker 1: look like what you wanted to look like? Would you say? Well,
Speaker 1: I think you're looking at five years generally speaking, of course,
Speaker 1: depending on your climate. But I always I always tell
Speaker 1: people that on the fifth year. You know, plants, the
Speaker 1: first year they sleep, the second they creep, the third
Speaker 1: they leap, and then by the fifth year your vision
Speaker 1: starts to come together and and then you get to
Speaker 1: start editing. But yes, um, I agree with you, totally.
Speaker 1: Don't delay planting. If you wait for that perfect plant
Speaker 1: to come along, you're wasting years planting. And then uh,
Speaker 1: give the give that free away if you find something
Speaker 1: um better in a few years time. But get get
Speaker 1: plants in the ground, let him get established and start
Speaker 1: enjoying what the to offer. I totally agree with your dad,
Speaker 1: Dan Henkley has taught me so much about gardening, and
Speaker 1: now gardening has sort of overtaken cooking, entertaining, being with friends.
Speaker 1: It's just taken over over my life. Uh. And I
Speaker 1: really and I really want to plant more and more
Speaker 1: and more. I love to see things grow just as
Speaker 1: you do, and after herons would when you find these
Speaker 1: souled herons would. I was heartbroken when you sold it
Speaker 1: to Burpee Seeds. Remember remember, but that enabled you to
Speaker 1: then buy a new garden, at least a new spots,
Speaker 1: new spot for a garden not far away. Tell us
Speaker 1: about tell us about Windcliff. Yeah, so that's where I
Speaker 1: am right now, enjoying the view outs of the Puget Sound.
Speaker 1: It's six and a half acres on a high bluff
Speaker 1: about three feet above Puget Sound. We look due south.
Speaker 1: It's rocky, sandy soil, and this self facing aspect has
Speaker 1: allowed me to grow so many plants that I could
Speaker 1: not grow at Heron's Wood. So as luck would have it, Um,
Speaker 1: I get the opportunity now to enjoy both gardens with
Speaker 1: the shade shaded treasures over at Heron's Wood and then
Speaker 1: experiment with these sun loving plants here growing out on
Speaker 1: my bluff. It is a large collection of aga panthers,
Speaker 1: and included in that is is one we named aga
Speaker 1: panthers Martha Stewart, which is one of our favorites here.
Speaker 1: Always ask about it when they see it. Oh and
Speaker 1: you know, Jan, I now have about four or five
Speaker 1: large pots filled with more the and they bloom. They
Speaker 1: bloomed so beautifully this year. They are beautiful. I love
Speaker 1: my namesake plant so much. And Ryan, my gardener, he
Speaker 1: forgot to bring them in my house when they were
Speaker 1: in full bloom. They could have looked beautiful down, you know,
Speaker 1: on the different tables in the in the rooms. But
Speaker 1: what what a spectacular plant that is. And thank you
Speaker 1: for thank you for my my namesake plant. It's it's beautiful.
Speaker 1: But so you have. But you not only have a
Speaker 1: goat panthers growing you have you can grow gigantic agaves
Speaker 1: outside gunneras. I've been trying to grow a gunnera for
Speaker 1: years and years and years now with climate change, I
Speaker 1: haven't tried it lately. I might be able to grow
Speaker 1: on here now, but you're gunnera. Just make me cry.
Speaker 1: They're so beautiful, and uh describe what a gunnera looks like, well,
Speaker 1: very dinosauric, I will say that. Um, if you think
Speaker 1: of an enormous rhubarb, if you're not that far off.
Speaker 1: Though they're not related. They call it the prickly rhubarb
Speaker 1: in South America where it's native, and they indeed eat
Speaker 1: the stems of gunnera like you would rhubarb. But it's
Speaker 1: a briskly leaved perennial with the leaves that will can
Speaker 1: reach up to ten ft across if it's well grown.
Speaker 1: So these that they've already emerged and are magnificent in
Speaker 1: the garden right now. With the flowers that are these
Speaker 1: large cones about two ft long that come out from
Speaker 1: the base as well. So it's a very awesome plant.
Speaker 1: But I don't think it's the the low temperatures that
Speaker 1: you have, Martha, but it's the heat, the heat and
Speaker 1: humidity on the East coast that's going to prevent you
Speaker 1: from growing. And so I think climate change is going
Speaker 1: in the wrong direction. I have a picture of you
Speaker 1: by the way in your just peeking out and Dan
Speaker 1: looks dwarfed by this gigantic plant. It's just incredible. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just an amazing garden. And there is a book
Speaker 1: tell us about your book when did it come out
Speaker 1: about Windcliff right in the middle of the pandemic. It's
Speaker 1: called Windcliffe Plants, Places and People. And I think you
Speaker 1: pop up into that book more than just a few times, Martha,
Speaker 1: because you've been so instrumental m in my education and
Speaker 1: on so many different levels, not just plants and gardens,
Speaker 1: but the way way to live. But it was just
Speaker 1: an opportunity to celebrate the opportunities I've had as a gardener,
Speaker 1: as a lowly gardener from from nowhere northern Michigan, USA,
Speaker 1: to to have the experiences that I've had because of
Speaker 1: my love of plants. And you were pretty instrumental and
Speaker 1: sharing bits, bits and pieces of your own life with me.
Speaker 1: But what we what we love to do is we
Speaker 1: love to celebrate people like you who who have done
Speaker 1: some such extraordinary things. Also, Dan has been a longtime
Speaker 1: contributor to Garden Design magazine, writing amazing articles. In my library,
Speaker 1: I came across a couple of a couple of your
Speaker 1: of your articles. One was called remember this one talking
Speaker 1: about aga panthers rethunk rethunk and uh, he'll often he'll
Speaker 1: often make up a new word to to explain what
Speaker 1: he's doing with these plants. And that's a very interesting article,
Speaker 1: by the way, Dan, And that's from Garden Design two
Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen, the Summer issue, and that was a
Speaker 1: whole issue. Um, there are a lot of seattle in
Speaker 1: that particular issue. I love that story. And then another
Speaker 1: article that I just came across was Mountains maples and
Speaker 1: metas aequoia, which are the giant redwoods, the dawn redwoods. Yes,
Speaker 1: such beautiful, beautiful trees. I have successfully grown lots of
Speaker 1: dawn redwoods here at the farm in in Bedford, New York.
Speaker 1: And they're big. Now you're you're gonna be surprised when
Speaker 1: you come visit me how how tall they have gotten.
Speaker 1: And there and there they love you. They love your
Speaker 1: heat humidity that you have, and they grow so much
Speaker 1: more rapidly for you than they do for us in
Speaker 1: the Northwest. Yeah, the trunks are beautiful as they as
Speaker 1: they grow taller and taller, those convoluted trunks of the
Speaker 1: of the metis Aquoia just just extraordinary trees. And I've
Speaker 1: been growing a lot of magnolias too because of you,
Speaker 1: and they were very pretty this year. How are your
Speaker 1: magnolia's They're good. I have a lot of species magnolias
Speaker 1: from Vietnam, especially in the garden, and some of my
Speaker 1: favorites Magnolia Wilson I. I think you have that one
Speaker 1: and some of the large camp belly eyes that they've
Speaker 1: already come and gone. So how many days a week
Speaker 1: do you spend at Harron's would your former garden? Well,
Speaker 1: I've been about three to four days a week, but
Speaker 1: you know, I'm now going to be seventy and I'm
Speaker 1: finding it to be so much more rewarding to be
Speaker 1: right here at home with my dogs and in my
Speaker 1: own garden that I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to
Speaker 1: pull away just a little bit and center myself in
Speaker 1: my home garden. I think that's something you can relate to. Well,
Speaker 1: do you have a lot of Do you have a
Speaker 1: lot of good interns working at Harron's Wood? Now, we
Speaker 1: have an amazing staff. Will have an intern this summer
Speaker 1: from the East Coast, and uh our staff is about
Speaker 1: one half from the tribe from the Port gamble Ste
Speaker 1: tribe and one half one tribal. So we couldn't be
Speaker 1: happier with who we have. It's a great team, great
Speaker 1: team effort and real success story. I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about the history of plant exploration because
Speaker 1: I find that fascinating when I when I see a
Speaker 1: scene in a movie or read a chapter in a
Speaker 1: book talking about the discovery of this or that plant um.
Speaker 1: The intrepid nature of plant explorers is quite legendary. How
Speaker 1: did it really start? When did it really start becoming
Speaker 1: a real passion. Well, you see the writing on the wall.
Speaker 1: During the middle part of the of the nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: when the missionaries were sent into China, so Armand Davie
Speaker 1: comes to mind. He was the French missionary, French missionary
Speaker 1: UM stationed in Sechuan Province, so Armand David. He's responsible
Speaker 1: for the introduction of thousands of plants into Europe and
Speaker 1: he set the stage for those people in the UK
Speaker 1: and Europe to return to China to look for the
Speaker 1: seeds of those plants that he sent pressings only back
Speaker 1: into Europe to Paris. So uhh, that's that's where George
Speaker 1: forrest came into play. Frank Kingdon Ward, Reginald fer Our,
Speaker 1: Ernest Wilson, all of those people from the late mid
Speaker 1: to late eighteen hundreds into the earlier years of the
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, that that was the golden age of plant exploration.
Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right, Martha, it was intrepid. They they
Speaker 1: didn't take a flight into Beijing and then had alt
Speaker 1: on a high speed train to the mountains. That it was.
Speaker 1: They were gone for years at a time, and they
Speaker 1: make what I do pale in comparison. You know, they
Speaker 1: left family and friends and no phones, slow mail, and
Speaker 1: they were there in the in the thicket things, collecting
Speaker 1: seeds for us. So it was amazing. Amazing stories were told,
Speaker 1: and I love reading their accounts. A good book on
Speaker 1: plant exploration is just riveting for me. What's your favorite book?
Speaker 1: I love all of the writings of Frank Kingdon Ward.
Speaker 1: He and his wife spent um years in the areas
Speaker 1: of northeast Indian Assam. He also spent time in China,
Speaker 1: and he wrote several accounts of these ord else that
Speaker 1: he went through, and I just I can't put them
Speaker 1: down when I when I find another edition of one
Speaker 1: of his accounts. Ernest Wilson was a good writer as well,
Speaker 1: and he has some amazing books, one called Plant Hunting
Speaker 1: that he um is well known for. And and as
Speaker 1: you might know, I might know, he ended up in Boston.
Speaker 1: He was English, but he ended up in Boston at
Speaker 1: Harvard University at um Arnold Arberydom where he died much
Speaker 1: too young in the car accident. He was. He was
Speaker 1: amongst the the nobility of plant explorers in the earlier
Speaker 1: years of the twentieth century. And do you remember that
Speaker 1: Kevin Sharky used to work at the Arnold Arboretum when
Speaker 1: he was in college, right. He loved working there and
Speaker 1: he learned a lot about trees. And I'm sure I
Speaker 1: have to ask him if he knows who Ernest Wilson was,
Speaker 1: because I I'm going to get his book right away
Speaker 1: if I don't have it someplace in my library. Plant Hunting.
Speaker 1: That's a good that's a good suggestion for all of us.
Speaker 1: Now about your design, because I think you are a
Speaker 1: fantastic landscape designer. Harron's Wood was a masterpiece. Uh and
Speaker 1: then Windcliff, which opposed serious problems because of your soil
Speaker 1: and your and your exposure and the wind um. But
Speaker 1: you've created a garden there that's just utterly magical. And
Speaker 1: during COVID, so many Americans especially became avid gardeners. So
Speaker 1: what what what are like five rules that you would
Speaker 1: suggest to people who want to become a gardener. What
Speaker 1: are five things to really pay attention to when you're
Speaker 1: thinking about becoming a gardener, a serious gardener, serious landscape gardener. Okay,
Speaker 1: well five, let me see if I can come up
Speaker 1: with five. I would say one garden within the prim
Speaker 1: matters of your of your place, place, not space, but
Speaker 1: you know, think think of trying to celebrate your own
Speaker 1: conditions and not try to make something that is a
Speaker 1: square peg being forced through a round hole. And blend
Speaker 1: in with your surroundings. To invest in hard escape, good
Speaker 1: quality hardscape right from the get go. And and don't
Speaker 1: go down the route to trying to redo or rethink
Speaker 1: your garden with herd escape after you've already established good gardens.
Speaker 1: That's a very very good suggestion. Select good plants and
Speaker 1: and and don't be um suckered into color in the nurseries.
Speaker 1: You know, think about foliage first and then flower, because
Speaker 1: it's foliage that's going to really carry your garden through
Speaker 1: all seasons, if and if you're in cold climates, and
Speaker 1: then use conifers that are hardy for your area and
Speaker 1: combine bark for the winter effects. Flowers are the icing
Speaker 1: on the cake, but the cake is really itself, is
Speaker 1: what carries the interests of the garden throughout all the years.
Speaker 1: I would say Number four I'm going to carry on
Speaker 1: is don't bite off more than you can chew. Let's
Speaker 1: take each small area at a time and get it
Speaker 1: under control, and then suiture those places together in your
Speaker 1: in your garden. But I see too many people tackling
Speaker 1: an entire landscape in one fell swoop or having God
Speaker 1: forbids some landscape company come in and do it all
Speaker 1: at once. It's an adventure. Take your time and do
Speaker 1: it right. And five remember it's your garden. You're you're
Speaker 1: doing it for yourself, your own enjoyment. It's your garden,
Speaker 1: and so enjoy the process and enjoy the results. Those
Speaker 1: are excellent. I'm gonna I am actually going to write
Speaker 1: down those and put them I think you, I think
Speaker 1: you gave me six, but um, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: write those down and put them on Instagram. So everybody,
Speaker 1: share them with everybody. I think those are the best rules. First,
Speaker 1: starting one's garden that I've that I've ever ever heard,
Speaker 1: it's a it's just been incredible talking to you. I
Speaker 1: could talk to you, of course, for jays and days
Speaker 1: and days. We're long overdue for a personal visit. Are
Speaker 1: you ever coming to the East Coast or are you
Speaker 1: just bored with the East Coast? No, I'm not bored
Speaker 1: of these coasts. You know what COVID did to all
Speaker 1: of us. We hunkered down and now we're having a
Speaker 1: slowly get back in our traveling shoes again, and uh
Speaker 1: I will come to visit. I want you to come
Speaker 1: here and stay with us like days past, and bring
Speaker 1: Kevin and and your grandkids out. I have some great
Speaker 1: plants to show your inspired about the natural world. Jude
Speaker 1: and Truman went to Antarctica. And Jude has just presented
Speaker 1: her film to her class. She's eleven. She made a
Speaker 1: film of their travels to Antarctica. And she made a
Speaker 1: film and it was voted the best film in the
Speaker 1: whole grade. Isn't that amazing? So I'm gonna I'll send
Speaker 1: you a copy when I get it. Okay, I haven't
Speaker 1: seen it yet? Please all right, and then I'll hold
Speaker 1: you and thank you so much Dan, and my love
Speaker 1: to Bob, and and to your gardens of course, and
Speaker 1: your doggies, how many dogs. And my dogs two dogs,
Speaker 1: Baboo and Henry, there are golden doodles. And and your
Speaker 1: dogs are good. All four dogs are fabulous. Thank you
Speaker 1: so very much, see you soon. Thank you Martha,