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Speaker 1: dot com slash k T. I E Hi Brian, Hi Katie.
Speaker 1: I cannot believe, Brian, this year is coming to an end.
Speaker 1: In subways, it seemed as if it would never be over.
Speaker 1: Like a bad movie, if you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: In other ways, time flies when you're having fun, and Brian,
Speaker 1: the older you get, the faster time flies. It seems well,
Speaker 1: you're younger than Springtime, Katie, younger than springtime? Are you
Speaker 1: gayer than laughter? Are you? I promise we didn't plan
Speaker 1: this anyway. As the year comes to a close, we're
Speaker 1: gonna look back at the biggest names, the biggest moments,
Speaker 1: and the biggest trends of But there's too much to
Speaker 1: cram into one episode, so we're doing this in two parts,
Speaker 1: splitting up the year into five count them five different themes.
Speaker 1: Today's episode, we're starting by tackling the year in pop culture.
Speaker 1: Will be chatting with Jia Tolentino of The New Yorker
Speaker 1: and Ira Madison of the podcast Keep It. Then we'll
Speaker 1: talk about lgbt Q issues with Dan Savage of The
Speaker 1: Savage Love Cast, among many other things, and Sarah McBride
Speaker 1: from the Human Rights Campaign. And finally we'll get to
Speaker 1: talk about race with Chamel Bowie from Slate and Maria
Speaker 1: Inajosa from Latino USA. Next week, we're gonna look back
Speaker 1: at the year in climate change and who better to
Speaker 1: do that with than Al Gore, and we're also going
Speaker 1: to have a chance to talk news and politics with
Speaker 1: Michael Barbarrow from the Daily podcast from the New York Times.
Speaker 1: We can't wait, but let's start with pop culture, which
Speaker 1: we all know. Brian is your bread and butter. Oh,
Speaker 1: for sure, you love Regis, Philbin, Frank Sinatra, you know
Speaker 1: the hottest names. He really is on top of things everyone.
Speaker 1: But as we mentioned, we're talking to two cultural critics
Speaker 1: for this conversation. Gia tole Tino writes for The New Yorker.
Speaker 1: You might have read her masterpiece article on millennials earlier
Speaker 1: this year, or maybe her piece about Jewel not the
Speaker 1: singer the electronic cigarette. I like her because she's a
Speaker 1: u v a alum wahua. Everybody's definitely my favorite UV alone.
Speaker 1: I'm kidding, Katie. And then Ira Madison is here. He's
Speaker 1: the host of Crooked Media's pop culture podcast, which is
Speaker 1: called Keep It. He's also a writer on a new
Speaker 1: Netflix teen sci fi drama dy called Daybreak, which is
Speaker 1: debuting next year and no relation to Billy apparently. So
Speaker 1: when Ira and Jia come into the studio, I swear
Speaker 1: to god we haven't been talking for three minutes when
Speaker 1: the biggest name of the year came up, Arianna Grande.
Speaker 1: Of course, are you expecting me to say someone else, Brian, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I I I was expecting you to
Speaker 1: say somebody whose name rhymes with drump I don't know,
Speaker 1: just made more Mitch McConnell, or somebody in your or book.
Speaker 1: Well that's where we started with gianne Ira, and they
Speaker 1: went crazy, by the way, and then we got to
Speaker 1: some other big names, big moments and big trends and
Speaker 1: pop culture from two thousand eighteen. Listen, I know you've
Speaker 1: been following Ariana Grande very religiously on her Instagram feed.
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of your lives. I want to
Speaker 1: say for the record that she's always been funnier than
Speaker 1: Pete really. Oh yeah, look on our Instagram she has.
Speaker 1: She did this fake wildlife video in Australia when she
Speaker 1: was on tour, pitch perfect Australian accent. She's good. I
Speaker 1: haven't seen prints on a few days. My you know
Speaker 1: what that means might be open for young friends. You
Speaker 1: might be did as mates. Let's talk about her a
Speaker 1: little bit more, and we're going to talk about other
Speaker 1: big names that we really witnessed in the pop culture
Speaker 1: landscape this year. Gosh, it's funny. People kind of come
Speaker 1: and go, don't they. But she's still white hot right now.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about Ariana. Why is she? Why does
Speaker 1: she have such a hold on people at this moment
Speaker 1: in time? She's funny, said, you know, she's all I
Speaker 1: thought the doughnut licking incident was funny. She's gonna hear
Speaker 1: us since she was slamming, really because to me, that
Speaker 1: was so embarrassing. But you guys think that brought her
Speaker 1: a lot of street grad I think it's embarrassing young people.
Speaker 1: Ourselves probably we identified strongly with what it would be
Speaker 1: like to be drunk in a donut chop, try to
Speaker 1: eat a doughnut and say I hate America at that
Speaker 1: particular stressful point in time. You know, I've been a
Speaker 1: fan of Arianna since the first album. Yours truly like she.
Speaker 1: The thing about her is that she's been just slowly
Speaker 1: her star has been slowly, slowly rising. She was pitched
Speaker 1: at the beginning, as you know, sort of like a
Speaker 1: baby Mariah Carey, which didn't really do her any favors.
Speaker 1: That they even had her do like a cover of emotions.
Speaker 1: She has vocals, She's incredibly challenged. She's so little. How
Speaker 1: can that big voice come out with she? You know,
Speaker 1: the first couple of albums, you know, it was it
Speaker 1: was very retrou She kind of seemed like a songbird.
Speaker 1: She didn't enunciate very clearly at all. One of my
Speaker 1: old colleagues a Rota post that was like, girl, Arianna,
Speaker 1: what are you even talking about? Girl? But on Sweetener,
Speaker 1: I mean, I love the album. I think it's great
Speaker 1: to it. I love that she worked with Para Williams
Speaker 1: and Max Martin U sort of like a throwback to
Speaker 1: the pop people. But g and I probably grew up
Speaker 1: with what up with this whole thing with Pete Davidson
Speaker 1: helped me understand this. So they got engaged after you know,
Speaker 1: three months or something, and I think one of the
Speaker 1: it was more like three weeks or something like that.
Speaker 1: And the reason why, I think one of the reasons
Speaker 1: that it grabbed people's attention was that Arianna has had
Speaker 1: a wild year. You know, she had the Manchester bombing.
Speaker 1: And Pete Davidson has also had quite a life. I mean,
Speaker 1: his dad died in nine eleven, and it's sort of
Speaker 1: this ultra millennial like bonding based on trauma and sort
Speaker 1: of the perceived imminent end of the world, which is
Speaker 1: the thing hovering over all of pop culture. And also,
Speaker 1: you know, they're both really funny and they both knew
Speaker 1: how to talk about their relationship in a way that
Speaker 1: it was more candid than you normally get out of people.
Speaker 1: It was destined to fail, but it seems like it was.
Speaker 1: It was it was accelerated by the death of her
Speaker 1: former boyfriend. Yeah, that was really sad. Can you tell
Speaker 1: to explain that to our listeners. Her former boyfriend was
Speaker 1: Mac Miller, who was a rapper I really enjoyed and
Speaker 1: also someone that steadily got better and better and better.
Speaker 1: I didn't always like him, but by the end, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like his last album was fantastic. Um. He's a person
Speaker 1: who struggled with you know, addiction issues, um over the years,
Speaker 1: and once this relapse happened, Um, I think that was
Speaker 1: just one more trauma tossed into Ariana's life. The opioid
Speaker 1: crysis has come to music. Really. You know, Tom Petty, Prince,
Speaker 1: Mac Miller, and Little People died from ventinyl overdoses. That's
Speaker 1: a lot. Okay, we're gonna take a bit of a turn,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about somebody else with a lot
Speaker 1: going on in Kylie Jenner, who was, among other things,
Speaker 1: on the cover of Forbes for being self made potentially
Speaker 1: quote self made youngest billionaire. So is she self made? Not?
Speaker 1: By my definition? Scratch that take um. I think coming
Speaker 1: from incredible family wealth does not negate being hard working
Speaker 1: and having a extremely sharp instinct as all those women
Speaker 1: do for what how you can monetize identity and beauty
Speaker 1: and female personhood in in this age. I think people
Speaker 1: often mistake I worked hard for I'm self made, And
Speaker 1: to me, those are quite different, especially since her brand
Speaker 1: is just sort of herself. It seems like all of
Speaker 1: this came from her person. But it's like you wouldn't
Speaker 1: it is true, but you also wouldn't put like a
Speaker 1: Rockefeller on forums and say that they're self made. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about some other boldface names that got a lot
Speaker 1: of attention this year. Donald Glover, I mean childish gampino
Speaker 1: that he to me, had such a breakthrough moment and
Speaker 1: he was obviously making a lot of noise people were
Speaker 1: noticing Atlanta, but this brought him to a new level
Speaker 1: didn't it Ira, Yeah, I mean there was Atlanta, it
Speaker 1: was that this is America. I've listened to his music before,
Speaker 1: and you know, a lot of it was sort of soundcloudy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: He's he's um. That's the theme with a lot of
Speaker 1: artists this year. Actually, I feel like they've been getting better.
Speaker 1: This was you know, just sort of him dipping into
Speaker 1: soul music a bit more. And it just really came
Speaker 1: out in a time when you know, people were willing
Speaker 1: to talk about politics and music and also and race.
Speaker 1: But also the video it's just so vivid and grim
Speaker 1: and I don't personally love the video. I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't like it when when stuff is I mean, everyone
Speaker 1: is hungry for stuff that's of the moment, but it's
Speaker 1: so on the nose. Having said that, it did make
Speaker 1: such a huge impression. I mean it was everywhere. You
Speaker 1: couldn't avoid it. Why did that catch such fire at
Speaker 1: that moment in time? In your view era, it's made
Speaker 1: for people to talk about it. You know, it's him
Speaker 1: shooting um other black people in the video, it's him
Speaker 1: waring Confederate stob trousers, right, and some of the symbolism
Speaker 1: I think people enjoy when they have to kind of
Speaker 1: peel away some of these things that are not necessarily
Speaker 1: over or too obvious, and I think people had fun
Speaker 1: kind of looking for the hidden meaning. Some not hidden obviously,
Speaker 1: but you know, the horse, the person on the horse
Speaker 1: riding by, and all those other things. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: the reason why drake klungs are so popular too. You know,
Speaker 1: like you have to capitalize on the fact that there's
Speaker 1: so much content now and if you make a song,
Speaker 1: if you make a music video that people can dissect online,
Speaker 1: it's going to help your song be better and sort
Speaker 1: of way through. And you know, with such a violent
Speaker 1: video like that, and then you put some imagery in there,
Speaker 1: people were going to be talking about it. Another performance
Speaker 1: that really captured people's imaginations this year was Beyonce's at
Speaker 1: Coach Can you talk a little Well, I'm from Texas,
Speaker 1: I'm from Houston. You know, first time I saw Destiny
Speaker 1: Child was at the Rodeo in seventh grade, so you know,
Speaker 1: I've been there from the beginning. I saw them at
Speaker 1: the Milwaukee Summer Fest. That was great, was at Beach
Speaker 1: Ella and it was I'm feeling it now. I just
Speaker 1: I mean, she's the first black woman to ever headline Coachella.
Speaker 1: That's wild. How did it take so long? It's also
Speaker 1: weird because you know, I was never a big coach
Speaker 1: Ella person before, and you know, actually that's why. And
Speaker 1: looking looking back, right, it was always just the whitest place.
Speaker 1: But then, you know, I feel like when Kanye performed
Speaker 1: a few years ago, like they started shifting more towards
Speaker 1: like hip hop acts and things and less white people
Speaker 1: playing music on the desk. So one of the reasons
Speaker 1: it was so extraordinary was that Beyonce didn't do it
Speaker 1: on Coachella's terms, right, she did it all on her
Speaker 1: term she put on. She was sort of like performing
Speaker 1: musicology in real time. She One of the things that's
Speaker 1: extraordinary about her is that the way you know, she
Speaker 1: was really dismissed early in her career is just kind
Speaker 1: of producing generic pop stuff. But here you see in
Speaker 1: a set like this, she's reinterpreting all of these old, old,
Speaker 1: old songs in the language of a New Orleans set
Speaker 1: in line in the language of you know, of like Houston, Texas,
Speaker 1: like chopped and screwed, dirty rap. It's like she is
Speaker 1: making this this long line of tradition that she has
Speaker 1: been working within Come Alive, and she did it so beautifully.
Speaker 1: It seems to me that she and jay Z have
Speaker 1: really mastered the art of being famous. You know, she's
Speaker 1: the only person who could take over Vogue magazine and
Speaker 1: have full editorial control. Do you see any danger in
Speaker 1: her power? Well, I don't think any celebrities should be
Speaker 1: able to take over get editorial control over magazine, but
Speaker 1: it does seem to be the way that we're headed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know Oprah's interview with Michelle Obama, you know, and like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, it seems like we're towards the celebrities interviewing
Speaker 1: and there was like the one of the worst ones
Speaker 1: was like I'm a Stone and Jennifer Lawrence. They were
Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, you're so pretty, and it
Speaker 1: was like, you know, actually, this is why the interview
Speaker 1: magazine model. Do you remember, interview has a place right
Speaker 1: because they would do it at a certain angle right
Speaker 1: like they would they would get they would match people
Speaker 1: up in the ways. That's sometimes you know, those those
Speaker 1: conversations be interesting. But isn't it important to have editorial
Speaker 1: control and an editorial voice so that celebrities don't take
Speaker 1: over the world. Yeah, I thought like a good version
Speaker 1: of that was Timothy Shallaba being interviewed by Harry S. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was, Yes, it was like they're both in a
Speaker 1: certain space in pop culture and we benefited from hearing
Speaker 1: them talk to each other. Another person who seemed to
Speaker 1: have a huge year was Tiffany Hattish. She's amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why do you think that she burst onto the scene
Speaker 1: in such a huge way. Comedy was sort of needing
Speaker 1: a voice like hers. Some people have tried to lodge
Speaker 1: it on plaint, you know that, like, oh, she's almost
Speaker 1: the same in every movie, But that's what people want.
Speaker 1: You let people do that before, and it can work
Speaker 1: if they're we like them. Hollywood studio system was built.
Speaker 1: You know exactly what you're going to get from a
Speaker 1: gin Cali movie. We've gone from big names and now
Speaker 1: we want to just talk about some big moments of
Speaker 1: the year. One was Oprah and her her Time's up
Speaker 1: me to speech at the Golden Globes. So I want
Speaker 1: all the girls watching here now to know that a
Speaker 1: new day is on the horizon, and when that new
Speaker 1: day finally dawned, it will be because of a lot
Speaker 1: of magnificent women. Many of them are right here in
Speaker 1: this room tonight and some pretty phenomenal men. Was that
Speaker 1: as significant as people are making it out to be.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I've almost forgotten she gave
Speaker 1: that speech until now. Um, I think that it didn't
Speaker 1: have that much impact within the overall music day is
Speaker 1: on the horizon. For my money, you know, I hate
Speaker 1: a word shows. I don't watch them for my money.
Speaker 1: The most impactful moment at an award show was Franz
Speaker 1: McDorman introducing the world to the concept of the inclusion writer,
Speaker 1: which nobody uses, which people are starting to use though,
Speaker 1: or yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Michael B. Jordan's company uses
Speaker 1: that women are writing things clauses about nudity in their contracts,
Speaker 1: like there there's stuff there is like that structural sort
Speaker 1: of legal protection is ramping up in that to me
Speaker 1: means a lot more than whatever rhetorics someone says it
Speaker 1: a speech, you know, at an award show that will
Speaker 1: get reaggregated everywhere for three days and then everyone will
Speaker 1: forget about it. You've written so much about me too,
Speaker 1: and Time's up And now Times Up has a new CEO,
Speaker 1: Lisa Borders, who came from the w n B A
Speaker 1: a lot of people in art, business and media have
Speaker 1: lost their jobs and been banished. And I'm curious, have
Speaker 1: you seen the movement go from activism to activation because
Speaker 1: I keep waiting for concrete things that are happening in
Speaker 1: sort of a bunch of arenas, and I don't really
Speaker 1: see it. I do think that for me always the
Speaker 1: question about me too, which is again you know, started
Speaker 1: by Toronto Brick a long time before this last year.
Speaker 1: There's been so much conversation about what's going to happen
Speaker 1: to these men. There's been so much focus about these
Speaker 1: men and they attempts to make a comeback and their
Speaker 1: feelings over the past year, and to me, it obscures
Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, like women couldn't get credit
Speaker 1: cards on their own until the seventies, right like, we
Speaker 1: are still a long way away from change that will
Speaker 1: feel satisfying. We are still in the cycle of backlash.
Speaker 1: Like you know, the Kavanaugh confirmation was I think partly
Speaker 1: a response to me to the fact that Republican support
Speaker 1: for him went up during the hearing. Means a lot.
Speaker 1: And so from the beginning, I've just tried, you know,
Speaker 1: as a young person who always expected that I would
Speaker 1: be equal and has over the last few years, have
Speaker 1: been realizing that a lot of the country doesn't, you know,
Speaker 1: want things to be that way. I know, isn't that
Speaker 1: a sad revelation, But I'm but I feel lucky to
Speaker 1: have been to be young enough that I grew up
Speaker 1: expecting it, which not is not the case for a
Speaker 1: lot of older generations. And I've just tried to remember
Speaker 1: that change is going to be slow. It's always it's
Speaker 1: always been slow, it's always been uneven, and you have
Speaker 1: to keep your foot on the gas. You have to
Speaker 1: keep your foot on the gas. And to me, you know,
Speaker 1: like what what matters the things that the media ends
Speaker 1: up talking about with me too, is not again where
Speaker 1: the change happen is the change happens in different language
Speaker 1: and contracts, and the change happens in HR meetings, and
Speaker 1: the change happens in hiring. Well, isn't it progress that
Speaker 1: a lot of bad actors have gotten fired and the
Speaker 1: message has sort of gone out that this behavior is unacceptable.
Speaker 1: But I think we're seeing again, I think we're seeing
Speaker 1: the backlash and again, you know, what happens to people
Speaker 1: who have done things that are wrong? Is not that
Speaker 1: important to me, what's important is the structures that are
Speaker 1: in place to make to make things more equal within
Speaker 1: the institution that those people got kicked out of, particularly
Speaker 1: because you know, there's so many people like Louis c
Speaker 1: k or something get to come back because one they're successful,
Speaker 1: and you know there within still this echo chamber of
Speaker 1: a fan base who will support them no matter what
Speaker 1: they do. And you know a lot of people in
Speaker 1: the industry talk about how much time do we have
Speaker 1: to wait for this person to be out of the
Speaker 1: spotlight before they come back? And I think as long
Speaker 1: as people keep focusing on that instead of changing things, um,
Speaker 1: Hollywood is just it's really just sort of an ebb
Speaker 1: and flow right now. I don't think anything really structural
Speaker 1: is happening aside from the way that we're talking about.
Speaker 1: We're still talking about it, and that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about Kanye in the Oval office with
Speaker 1: President Trump. You know, people expect that if you're black,
Speaker 1: you have to be democratic. I have a I've have
Speaker 1: conversations that basically said that welfare is the reason why
Speaker 1: a lot of black people end up being democratic. Say,
Speaker 1: you know, if that was a big moment, what did
Speaker 1: you make of it. I've been I've been of the
Speaker 1: opinion very strongly for the last ever since social media happened.
Speaker 1: Is that, you know, I mean, I think we'd all
Speaker 1: be better off if we made celebrity opinions matter much less. Um.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. It's like this year has been just like
Speaker 1: the it's the it's the revision of the Kanye Taylor
Speaker 1: VMA's feud where where Taylor finally spoke up about politics,
Speaker 1: urge people to vote, urge them to vote for a Democrat.
Speaker 1: But then Kanye ended up in the White House talking,
Speaker 1: you know, wearing a Maga hat, And to me, it
Speaker 1: was like, maybe we shouldn't look to celebrities for our
Speaker 1: It's also the fun hypocrisy of it too, because you know,
Speaker 1: it's the conservatives of the right are often talking about
Speaker 1: how they don't want celebrities chogging and on politics, but
Speaker 1: it's usually just when celebrities are telling people to vote
Speaker 1: for Democrats. Uh, as soon as the celebrity hops over
Speaker 1: at wants to you know, wear a Maga hat, um,
Speaker 1: then we should be listening to that celebrity's opinion. But
Speaker 1: now he's disavowed Donald Yeah, because he was in a
Speaker 1: manic episode and then uh yeah, I mean it's really regretful.
Speaker 1: Kanye has fallen off harder than any I mean, Kanye,
Speaker 1: it's one of the best producers, like one of most
Speaker 1: influential musicians of this era, and this new album that
Speaker 1: he put out is awful, and and his his work
Speaker 1: got bad, everything else got bad at the same time.
Speaker 1: And to me, the when he went to the White House,
Speaker 1: it didn't mean anything because again, like I try not
Speaker 1: to think that it means like hanging on to every
Speaker 1: single word that Kanye said about politics at any point
Speaker 1: is never going to be particularly helpful to the discourse
Speaker 1: or anything. If you've been a fan of Kanye, you
Speaker 1: know that he has never really been great are issues
Speaker 1: of politics, you know, on um even misogyny towards black
Speaker 1: women in his music and things. And it's just sort
Speaker 1: of once he came to this place, it was sort
Speaker 1: of expected. It's sort of exactly what promised us with celebrities,
Speaker 1: Like there's a direct line between Beyonce taking control of
Speaker 1: Vogue and Kanye is sort of putting himself out there
Speaker 1: in front of everyone because I think that he was,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to magically control his own image and
Speaker 1: you know, fix the fact that you know, creatively, um,
Speaker 1: he was a bit in a slump. There is a
Speaker 1: direct line also to Kim Kardashian, you know, got Alice
Speaker 1: Johnson released from prison, right And it's like all of
Speaker 1: this is happening on an individual charisma, celebrity based situation
Speaker 1: where this is like not helpful. We should be speaking
Speaker 1: broadly about what happens needs to happen with criminal justice
Speaker 1: reform instead of Kim Kardashian marching in and getting clemency
Speaker 1: for one person. I mean, it's just such a distraction
Speaker 1: from the actual basis of change. And having said that,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that certainly so many celebrities have
Speaker 1: felt compelled in and this trump you know environment we're
Speaker 1: living in to speak out on female empowerment, to speak
Speaker 1: out about gun violence, and in a way, I think
Speaker 1: they're they've been a very powerful force to spur and
Speaker 1: motivate and galvanize the whole segment of the population to
Speaker 1: get more involved in the election results. The gun lobby
Speaker 1: isn't nearly as powerful a factor as it used to
Speaker 1: be in elections. I mean, maybe all the voices speaking
Speaker 1: out on that issue had some effects. So is it
Speaker 1: positive in some ways. Sure, Yeah, I think it's positive
Speaker 1: if you're using your voice to talk about vote egg
Speaker 1: and you know, gut control at people who were talking
Speaker 1: about about voter suppression and things like that. But I think,
Speaker 1: as Gas said, you know, like a spectacle of I'm
Speaker 1: showing up to the White House and getting one thing
Speaker 1: done isn't really helpful to anybody, And it really just
Speaker 1: creates a lot of noise and people arguing back and forth.
Speaker 1: And as you know, you can live by the tweet
Speaker 1: and die by the tweet. As Roseanne bar tragically showed
Speaker 1: us in two thousand eighteen, I think it was tragic
Speaker 1: that a she felt the way she felt, that she
Speaker 1: said the things she said. You know, it occupied so
Speaker 1: much space in the news cycle, right, I mean, I like,
Speaker 1: I agree with that months and it's like why it's
Speaker 1: one person is horrible. I mean, you know, even the
Speaker 1: fact it's good that Rosanne got called out on what
Speaker 1: she said, but even that swallowed so much air. I
Speaker 1: think people need to make sure before they press sent
Speaker 1: that they really consider what they're saying or what they're doing.
Speaker 1: Case in point, you know, Megan Kelly, there was a
Speaker 1: controversy on the Real Housewives of New York with Luanne
Speaker 1: as she dresses Diana Ross and she made her skin
Speaker 1: look darker than it really is, and people said that
Speaker 1: that was racist, And I don't know, I felt like,
Speaker 1: who doesn't love Diana Ross? She wants to look like
Speaker 1: Diana Ross for one day. I don't know how like
Speaker 1: that got racist on Hollow when I haven't seen it now.
Speaker 1: It wasn't on social media, but social media was what
Speaker 1: drummed up the opposition to end her talk show, which
Speaker 1: is funny, you know, because she had said that when
Speaker 1: she said that, I mean, and also it seems like
Speaker 1: that's the irony of Megan Kelly. Yeah. Yeah, she'd been
Speaker 1: saying she said way more racist stuff than victims of
Speaker 1: police violence. When John Oliver did that mash up of
Speaker 1: all the things that she had said on Fox before
Speaker 1: her show even debuted, I thought, Wow, do have to
Speaker 1: wonder did NBC look at her work before? You know,
Speaker 1: they wanted her to be a provocateur. They wanted, you know,
Speaker 1: and she is. But the thing is, and how can
Speaker 1: you be a provocateur at nine o'clock in the morning
Speaker 1: that you do not want to best in morning television?
Speaker 1: Trust me? I know this terrible her energy, her energy,
Speaker 1: which was useful on Fox News was and she was
Speaker 1: the reasonable one, you know, in relative to Fox News,
Speaker 1: and she her energy is that of a prosecutor like
Speaker 1: she She's not a good listener. That hour was successful
Speaker 1: before she joined No Fair. But it was just sort
Speaker 1: of weird to think that people and it was too
Speaker 1: African American house who were both paid less combined, well,
Speaker 1: everybody on that show that they hired her for just
Speaker 1: this wild contract that I was because she was on
Speaker 1: the cover of Vanity Fair and she was a new
Speaker 1: shiny object, a girl. True, but I think it was
Speaker 1: always weird to think that, you know, m viewers U
Speaker 1: that morning show, we're ever going to go for her
Speaker 1: bread of Fox, you know, otherwise as they would be
Speaker 1: watching Fox. Well, we can't talk about big moments the
Speaker 1: year without talking about the Royal wedding, which, on one level,
Speaker 1: although I just got to four eye rolls, I'm going
Speaker 1: to just find the Royal Wedding for a second. On
Speaker 1: one level, it was a traditional royal wedding. On another level,
Speaker 1: it was revolutionary because you had a divorced black American
Speaker 1: actress being warmly embraced and accepted by the most traditional,
Speaker 1: hide bound institution perhaps in the world outside of maybe
Speaker 1: the Saudis, as he melted any skepticism. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: Philip's sister was a Nazi. I mean like there is
Speaker 1: Nazis had a number of relatives. There was already diversity
Speaker 1: in the royal family. I mean, you know, like there,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, I mean sure. It's like Megan Markle.
Speaker 1: I think she's like immensely like adorable and charismatic. I
Speaker 1: personally can't get behind like something like a royal wedding
Speaker 1: ever being anything like revolutionary because of how I feel
Speaker 1: about institutions and weddings. But Megan uncle is incredibly charming,
Speaker 1: And you know, I hope that the you know whatever,
Speaker 1: remember the family that wore that, you know, like Sambo
Speaker 1: brooch to Oh yeah, that was bad. But I think
Speaker 1: the look the royal family reflects the culture. They're not
Speaker 1: going to lead the culture, and it says something very
Speaker 1: good about the culture that this is where they felt
Speaker 1: they had to be when Harry decided to marry her.
Speaker 1: And let's face it, my favorite moment was when the
Speaker 1: choirs saying stand by me, and they just did not
Speaker 1: know what to do. I mean, I thought the wedding
Speaker 1: was beautiful. I love a wedding. I enjoy the fact
Speaker 1: that it was a somewhat nice fairytale story for us
Speaker 1: to talk about the mystery that but you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're still not it's connected to the family, you know.
Speaker 1: And she'll never be able to go outside with bare legs,
Speaker 1: no pantyhose. You know, we skirt above the knee again.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's it's a mixed one. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: she she's got to wear pantyhose. She can't wear sports.
Speaker 1: And I wouldn't marry him for that, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. Like she she's actually making its listened by
Speaker 1: the ghosts of colonial of but listen, maybe she will
Speaker 1: be able to usher in more change. And she's been
Speaker 1: a little um. She's spoken out and out about certain things.
Speaker 1: It's great, and so Megan like, let's get I like
Speaker 1: I like that photo of them laughing together. I thought
Speaker 1: that was really cute. All right, We've got to go
Speaker 1: over some big themes of two thousand eighteen. One big
Speaker 1: theme is diversity in movies. You know, we had crazy
Speaker 1: rich Asians, which I hated personally. I thought it was
Speaker 1: so dumb. We have black Panther, which it feel like
Speaker 1: it I know, I know, is that crazy love Simon
Speaker 1: call me by your name. So do you think that
Speaker 1: we're starting to open up in terms of our expectations
Speaker 1: and movies and how did you feel about all those
Speaker 1: kind of steps seeing the change towards diversity is feeling
Speaker 1: less like people really feeling like we need to include
Speaker 1: more voices and more lie how can we make how
Speaker 1: can we make money at the box office? But also
Speaker 1: turned existing things that we already do into money makers.
Speaker 1: You know, it's MythBuster though, because there was this idea
Speaker 1: for a long time all black person can't lead a movie,
Speaker 1: an Asian person can't headline a movie. You know that
Speaker 1: there was a sort of an economic excuse that people made,
Speaker 1: which turns out is totally false. And thank god that
Speaker 1: this year bus did that open I will say, I
Speaker 1: mean one thing, like I didn't love crazy rich Agians either,
Speaker 1: but you know, like one of the things we need,
Speaker 1: you know, every film doesn't have to be Moonlight like
Speaker 1: a genius masterpiece, like we need to let there's so many,
Speaker 1: like you know, kind of run of the mill rom coms.
Speaker 1: We need to let some of them not have only
Speaker 1: white people in it or you know, and it's a
Speaker 1: love that crazy, it's got to just be like a goofy.
Speaker 1: But also there should be many of them so that
Speaker 1: everyone's not hanging their hopes on this movie being a success.
Speaker 1: So another theme this year is reboots. What's Old is
Speaker 1: New again? Will and Grace, Murphy Brown, a star is
Speaker 1: born of the teenage, which is coming. How can we
Speaker 1: monetize this I P forever? It is kind of doesn't
Speaker 1: speak to the lack of original, new, original ideas that
Speaker 1: we have to keep going back to the well, well,
Speaker 1: I think part of it. You know, movies have to
Speaker 1: do well internationally now to make to turn a profit.
Speaker 1: That's why there's so many action movies with little dialogues, right,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's literally like, how can we maximize
Speaker 1: the money we have off of our I P by
Speaker 1: rebooting everything Like The Kings coming back, Well, that I'm
Speaker 1: excited about is incredible, but you know, I think like
Speaker 1: the era of like the all female reboot is pretty
Speaker 1: tired to me. It was pretty tired from the beginning.
Speaker 1: How do you feel about Murphy Brown coming Back? I
Speaker 1: didn't watch it. I I was brilliant brilliant, please check
Speaker 1: me out. But John barn was good though. Yeah, now
Speaker 1: I us it depends on the product, right, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean with all of these things right, you can
Speaker 1: do you can reinvent something for the sake of market performance.
Speaker 1: You can have a craven but ultimately you know, like
Speaker 1: well intentioned, you know, rationale, or you can have the
Speaker 1: like kind of dutiful. We should be awoke, now, we
Speaker 1: should be diverse. Both of those things are not They
Speaker 1: ring hollow. They ring a little more hollow to an
Speaker 1: audience than the real reason for reinventing someone, which is
Speaker 1: like the Bradley the Bradley Cooper reason for re undering
Speaker 1: stars Borne, because like, let's do it again for a deep,
Speaker 1: deep story and character based reason, Let's talk about Anthony
Speaker 1: Bourdain and Kate Spade. It seems to me this was
Speaker 1: a year where people, because of these tragedies, people were
Speaker 1: starting to talk about mental health, mental illness, and suicide,
Speaker 1: and people were starting to be a little more forthcoming
Speaker 1: and honest about their own emotional demons. Do you agree,
Speaker 1: I do you know? I think that as sad as
Speaker 1: those events where they got a lot of people talking
Speaker 1: about how we view celebrity culture and how you know,
Speaker 1: social media has sort of put people's emotions bear um
Speaker 1: and it's you know, you're still sort of seeing how
Speaker 1: a celebrity can have what you think is a perfect
Speaker 1: life that they're showing you out there, but seeing so
Speaker 1: much stuff um just everywhere, might it depresses people. I
Speaker 1: think that has gotten a lot of people online talking
Speaker 1: about mental health and how social media affects us. And
Speaker 1: I think, you know, the Bourdain situation in Kate's Bay
Speaker 1: then also got us talking you know about suicide as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think what I always wish for, you know, people
Speaker 1: will post the suicide hotline after these things, and what
Speaker 1: I want is for that organization to be better funded,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean because like at some point, openness
Speaker 1: is only as helpful as the resources that are available
Speaker 1: to people when they're in crisis, and we are seeing
Speaker 1: that get tripped away at it, you know, in budgets
Speaker 1: and you know, like the general sort of state of
Speaker 1: health care um and how hard it is to get
Speaker 1: for so many people. Um. You know, because talking about
Speaker 1: it is one thing. Getting the help that people needing
Speaker 1: that often doesn't isn't enough to save people. But we
Speaker 1: need people to all have access to it, and that's
Speaker 1: what I hope is the next It's been interesting for
Speaker 1: me to see people like Michael Phelps get involved with
Speaker 1: these online therapy apps, and it feels like people are
Speaker 1: much more open to saying, you know, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: fucked up. We have also, ironically, have this epidemic of
Speaker 1: loneliness despite the fact that we're more connected and on
Speaker 1: our phone. I mean, I think that's I mean, this
Speaker 1: is what social media does. It promises connection, but it
Speaker 1: only induces alienation. And I like that. I'm going to
Speaker 1: use that as my quote card on Monday. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think on Instagram, but I mean, yeah, but it's not.
Speaker 1: It's not ironic. It's not it's not like a strange coincidence.
Speaker 1: It's because these plat forms are not honest about what
Speaker 1: they do. Yet. Well, let's before we go, let's talk
Speaker 1: about two thousand nineteen and your predictions for the new year.
Speaker 1: What do you think we're going to be talking about, Uh,
Speaker 1: We're we talking about the election, definitely. Um, do you
Speaker 1: think we'll be talking about times at me too continuing
Speaker 1: to make progress or kind of fading out? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean there are too many people that are invested
Speaker 1: in this changing um. But I you know, I do
Speaker 1: think that the backlash against you know, this year of
Speaker 1: listening to women literally just a year, I think it
Speaker 1: may intensify, UM and I think there's a lot that
Speaker 1: might get worse. You know, this time though, it makes
Speaker 1: it really hard. I don't know if you guys have
Speaker 1: found it, but it makes it really hard to see
Speaker 1: into the future. Like the future just seems very I mean,
Speaker 1: every week is just so unpredictable and jarring and often
Speaker 1: like deeply traumatizing that you know, like when you can
Speaker 1: expect X number of shootings within the next month. You know,
Speaker 1: I think it's very hard to even imagine what a
Speaker 1: year from now will look like. Like I'm glad, but
Speaker 1: I am already glad for whatever albums know and movies
Speaker 1: like good at Yeah, but you're right, in the face
Speaker 1: of gun violence and climate change, some of this seems
Speaker 1: a little well, you know. Yeah, And I thought I
Speaker 1: interviewed like teenagers a lot for my job because I,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think it's a really interesting time
Speaker 1: to be young person in a really hard one because
Speaker 1: they're like, what how are we going to grow up
Speaker 1: in this night? I don't know. Well, hopefully there'll be
Speaker 1: some positive developments in two thousand nineteen in sort of
Speaker 1: all aspects of our lives a year from now. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully. Well,
Speaker 1: Gia and Ira, thank you guys so much for coming.
Speaker 1: It was really fun to talk to you. It's time
Speaker 1: for a quick break and coming up, we're gonna be
Speaker 1: talking about the biggest names, moments, and trends and l
Speaker 1: g B t Q issues this year, and then later
Speaker 1: in the show we're going to be talking about race.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, Brian, how did you sleep last night? Well, Katie,
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Speaker 1: In two thousand eighteen, we saw huge milestones for the
Speaker 1: l g B t Q community, but we also saw
Speaker 1: an administration that was hostile in many ways to that
Speaker 1: community and wanted to roll back rights and protections. Honestly, Brian,
Speaker 1: I would say it was a decidedly mixed bag. Well,
Speaker 1: I agree with you on that. Katie. Here to talk
Speaker 1: to us about what happened on this front in are
Speaker 1: Dan Savage and Sarah McBride. Dan has been a guest
Speaker 1: on this show before and a terrific one, I might add.
Speaker 1: He's the host of Savage Love Cast and writes a
Speaker 1: weekly internationally syndicated column called Savage Love. He's also been
Speaker 1: an advocate for the gay community for a very long time,
Speaker 1: including when he started the amazing It Gets Better campaign
Speaker 1: back in twenty I loved Dan. I also love Sarah McBride.
Speaker 1: She's just twenty eight years old and she's had an
Speaker 1: incredible life. She came out as transgender when she was
Speaker 1: at American University, where she was the student body president.
Speaker 1: She then went on to become an advocate for her
Speaker 1: community and was the first trans person to speak at
Speaker 1: a national convention, which she spoke at the d n
Speaker 1: C in Philadelphia. Now, she's the national Press Secretary for
Speaker 1: the Human Rights Campaign and the author of a really
Speaker 1: moving memoir called Tomorrow Will Be Different. Sarah and Dan,
Speaker 1: super Jazz to have you both on the podcast, and
Speaker 1: we have a lot to cover about two thousand and
Speaker 1: eighteen and what it meant for LGBTQ people. Let's start
Speaker 1: by talking about some of the biggest names that surfaced
Speaker 1: in two thousand eighteen. Let me start with you, Sarah
Speaker 1: Beth Ford. Why was she so significant? Well, Beth Ford
Speaker 1: was the first openly gay woman to run a Fortune
Speaker 1: five hundred company, which was a huge advancement for lgbt
Speaker 1: Q representation in major companies. Obviously, Tim Cook is an
Speaker 1: incredible inspiring example over at Apple, and it's it's a
Speaker 1: reflection of the fact that l g b t Q
Speaker 1: people are increasingly rising to the top of their respective fields.
Speaker 1: And when you have openly l g b t Q
Speaker 1: people in the c suite, openly l g b t
Speaker 1: Q people running companies, it doesn't just send a great
Speaker 1: signal to future generations of LGBTQ corporate leaders, but it
Speaker 1: also changes the corporate environment, not just companies, but they're
Speaker 1: now running states, specifically Jared Polis, who is the governor
Speaker 1: elect of Colorado. Dan, we proved that we're an eclusive
Speaker 1: state that values every contribution regardless of someone's sexual orientation
Speaker 1: or gender identities. I read a tweet that said, the
Speaker 1: state where a baker refused to make a wedding cake
Speaker 1: for a gay couple has just elected at a gay governor.
Speaker 1: What was your reaction to that election, Dan, I was
Speaker 1: thrilled by Jared Polis's election. Uh that night, I wish
Speaker 1: it had been matched with Stacy Abrams election in Georgia
Speaker 1: Andy Gillam's election in Florida. We don't want to leave
Speaker 1: Kate Brown off this list though. She's the governor of
Speaker 1: Oregon and she was appointed when the previous governor had
Speaker 1: to resign. But Kate Brown is bisexual and out and
Speaker 1: was elected in her own right for the first time
Speaker 1: governor of Oregon. So there were two big first for
Speaker 1: LGBT people in the gubernatorial front this election. And speaking
Speaker 1: of bisexuals, Kirston Cinema was was elected the Senator from
Speaker 1: Arizona and she's going to be the first bisexual senator,
Speaker 1: at least openly bisexual senator. Yeah, and she was one
Speaker 1: of the bright spots in the U S Senate for
Speaker 1: pro quality candidates. She ran a really competitive, difficult race
Speaker 1: in a in a tough state and pulled it out.
Speaker 1: She'll joined Tammy Baldwin as now the second openly l
Speaker 1: g B t Q United States Senator. She was in
Speaker 1: the US House prior to UH and she is a
Speaker 1: a fierce and um energetic UH public figures. I think
Speaker 1: she's gonna be a really interesting person to watch in
Speaker 1: the United States Senate. It's a positive development that people
Speaker 1: who are open about their sexuality and about their gender
Speaker 1: identification are now being elected to office. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: if there's something to cheer about. This, is it right? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: I mean the last election, everyone talks about the blue
Speaker 1: wave and the pink wave, and those were massive waves,
Speaker 1: but there was also a rainbow wave of a record
Speaker 1: number of of openly l g b t Q members
Speaker 1: of the House representatives come January, of LGBTQ people getting
Speaker 1: elected to state legislatures and city councils across the country.
Speaker 1: We now have added in addition to Dana Carome who
Speaker 1: was elected in ten and the Commonwealth of Virginia, we
Speaker 1: have my state. We now have three more transgender people
Speaker 1: who've been elect did two in New Hampshire they have
Speaker 1: a large state house with thell have two trans women.
Speaker 1: And then in Colorado they'll not have an openly transgender
Speaker 1: person in their state house. So let's talk about some
Speaker 1: of the biggest moments this year related to l g
Speaker 1: b t Q issues, not all of which are encouraging,
Speaker 1: but some of them are. One of them, um in
Speaker 1: the former category is the Department of Health and Human
Speaker 1: Services changing the legal definition of sex. The quote is
Speaker 1: the agency's proposed definition would define sex as either male
Speaker 1: or female, unchangeable and determined by the genitals that a
Speaker 1: person is born with. Um, what's your reaction to that. Well,
Speaker 1: this is sadly not a surprising development, and it's obviously
Speaker 1: a report that was in the New York Times just
Speaker 1: two weeks before the last election. But it's a reflection
Speaker 1: of actions individual actions this administration has taken over the
Speaker 1: last two years of trying to roll back our progress
Speaker 1: when it comes to the growing legal consensus that LGBTQ
Speaker 1: people are protected under federal civil rights laws. Because at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, if you're discriminating against someone
Speaker 1: because of their gender identity or their sexual orientation, you're
Speaker 1: discriminating against them because of gender stereotypes, which is illegal
Speaker 1: sex discrimination. And so, just a couple of weeks after
Speaker 1: taking office, the Trump Pence administration rescinding guidance promoting the
Speaker 1: protection of transgender students under that principle. They have in
Speaker 1: different agencies sought to roll back similar protections. They filed
Speaker 1: briefs in front of the uh federal courts that assert
Speaker 1: that they don't believe federal civil rights laws protect LGBTQ
Speaker 1: workers and students and patients. So this is an incredibly
Speaker 1: dangerous action. Uh, it's not surprising that they're considering doing
Speaker 1: it more broadly, and I would have in some cases
Speaker 1: life and death consequences for LGBTQ people. And let's talk
Speaker 1: about another decision that Trump administration made, which was to
Speaker 1: include same sex partners on the census, but not to
Speaker 1: do a third row accounting of LGBTQ people. Uh. Dan,
Speaker 1: when you saw that, did you think this is kind
Speaker 1: of a mixed bag or worse than that? It definitely
Speaker 1: is a mixed bag, and it reinforces, you know, a
Speaker 1: negative kind of meme or idea or concept that only uh,
Speaker 1: same sex, only queer people who are married matter, Only
Speaker 1: people in same sex relationships who have married are important
Speaker 1: or should be counted or recognized. And that's just not true.
Speaker 1: And the biggest concern that I have, even as a
Speaker 1: queer person about the Census is the question that they've
Speaker 1: added to it ask people whether their citizens or not,
Speaker 1: which is going to result in undercounting a great number
Speaker 1: of people who are afraid to have that question put
Speaker 1: to them because they're undocumented or because they're undocumented people
Speaker 1: perhaps living in their house, so they have undocumented family members,
Speaker 1: and it's going to result in an undercount, and it's
Speaker 1: gonna result in undercounts in places where queer people tend
Speaker 1: to live in greater numbers, and so it's gonna negatively
Speaker 1: impact you know, how we're represent whether we're legal early
Speaker 1: limigrants ourselves or not. And they're a queer legal and
Speaker 1: undocumented immigrants, and that's the real threat to the census
Speaker 1: in my opinion. What about on a state level, what
Speaker 1: happened this year, say in Massachusetts and in North Carolina.
Speaker 1: So Massachusetts had a really critical race for for transgender people. Um,
Speaker 1: it became the first state in the nation where trans
Speaker 1: protections separate from protections based on sexual orientation. We're on
Speaker 1: the ballot for a public vote. And let me just
Speaker 1: start by saying, it's outrageous when a minority groups rights
Speaker 1: are ever on the ballot for a popular vote. It
Speaker 1: was absurd during the marriage equality referenda, and it was
Speaker 1: absurd in Massachusetts. But opponents of equality mustered up enough
Speaker 1: signatures to put protections for transgender people in public spaces
Speaker 1: on the ballot. Those are restaurants, hospitals, grocery stores, parks,
Speaker 1: public transportation, and of course bathrooms within those spaces. You know,
Speaker 1: we were nervous because in a lot of other places,
Speaker 1: like Houston, for instance, a couple of years ago, voters
Speaker 1: have either just barely or actually ended up rescinding protections
Speaker 1: for for transgender people when they've been put on the ballot.
Speaker 1: But fortunately Massachusetts voters came out in November on Question
Speaker 1: three and by a two to one margin voted yes
Speaker 1: on three to uphold those protections, which I think was
Speaker 1: was really positive nationally because if they had one in Massachusetts,
Speaker 1: which was certainly possible, it would have emboldened their efforts
Speaker 1: in other states to try to put trans equality on
Speaker 1: the on the ballot. So we were really fortunate to
Speaker 1: win there, But then there were some really significant results
Speaker 1: for trans equality in in other states. North Carolina is
Speaker 1: a situation where obviously Pat McCrory in lost the governor's
Speaker 1: race in large part because of HB two, the bill
Speaker 1: that tried to ban trans people from restrooms consistent with
Speaker 1: our gender identity. The new governor signed into into law
Speaker 1: a bill that took away some parts of that bill
Speaker 1: but still kept in place ban on localities passing protections
Speaker 1: for transgender people in restaurant hims UM statewide, so it's
Speaker 1: there's still an issue. They're basically saying, you couldn't pass
Speaker 1: laws protecting trans people from using the bathroom that that
Speaker 1: was consistent with their gender identity right. They took away
Speaker 1: the affirmative mandate to discriminate, but kept in place the
Speaker 1: ban on on localities protecting LGBTQ people from discrimination UM
Speaker 1: and specifically trans people in bathrooms perpetually UM. In Texas
Speaker 1: though they had a bathroom bill that didn't pass, but
Speaker 1: the five main sponsors ended up losing reelection this past cycle,
Speaker 1: voters are coming forward and they're saying, this is absurd
Speaker 1: that you were trying to ban transgender people from restrooms.
Speaker 1: It's absurd you're spending your time and energy trying to
Speaker 1: do this. We'd much rather have elected officials who represent
Speaker 1: the interests of everyone and who focus on issues that matter,
Speaker 1: not some made up bathroom predator myth. Well, there's an
Speaker 1: interesting parallel to the marriage Clauda movement where it was
Speaker 1: put onto the ballot in many states and we lost,
Speaker 1: and we lost and we lost until we won. And
Speaker 1: what you saw with the losses on marriage equality when
Speaker 1: there were votes, was the needle moving closer and closer
Speaker 1: and closer that the more we have this discussion, the
Speaker 1: more we have this debate, the more people came around
Speaker 1: and change their positions. And on queer rights, what we
Speaker 1: often or almost invariably see is people coming around to
Speaker 1: supporting queer rights. So it's a it's kind of this
Speaker 1: you know, exploding cigar that right wing bigots keep lighting
Speaker 1: and sticking in their own mouths like, oh, we're going
Speaker 1: to force this onto a ballot, We're gonna have a vote,
Speaker 1: and yeah, they win a few of those until they don't.
Speaker 1: It is I agree with Sarah of debate. We should
Speaker 1: not have to have the rights of a minority should
Speaker 1: never be put onto the ballot and subject to a
Speaker 1: popular vote. Um Our rights are sacred, sacred's acting should
Speaker 1: be protected. Uh. That said, this strategy of THEIRS has
Speaker 1: proved in the long run to be a disaster for
Speaker 1: their side. And Dan, you know, Sarah and I both
Speaker 1: attended the service where Matthew Shepherd's remains were interred at
Speaker 1: Washington National Cathedral and in a way, this twenty a
Speaker 1: year anniversary of Matthew's horrific brutal death was a good
Speaker 1: reminder of how gay people were treated just twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: It was profoundly moving for me personally, I think because
Speaker 1: I've gotten to know Judy and Dennis Shephard very well
Speaker 1: over the years, and I covered that story and I'm
Speaker 1: curious how you felt about that moment. Well, I was,
Speaker 1: of course tremendously moved and then tremendously heartbroken to to
Speaker 1: learn and I wasn't aware of this that for the
Speaker 1: last twenty years, Matthew Shephard's parents have been afraid to
Speaker 1: inter him anywhere because they believed that his grave site
Speaker 1: would attract bigots and would be defaced. And that for
Speaker 1: twenty years they felt that they couldn't lay matthew drest
Speaker 1: in a public space was really heartbreaking. And you know,
Speaker 1: as a you know, a gay guy myself who grew
Speaker 1: up in a religious family. What kind of blew my
Speaker 1: mind most about it was they found a safe space
Speaker 1: for his remains, and it was a church, because the
Speaker 1: church was the last place I ever felt safe, particularly
Speaker 1: when I was Matthew's age. I didn't feel safe in churches.
Speaker 1: So that was sort of a mind blowing, unexpected development
Speaker 1: in that case, um and really very healing. I have
Speaker 1: to say though, that you know this isn't just how
Speaker 1: gay people were tweeted twenty years ago, that there are
Speaker 1: still gay people in lesbians and bisexual people and trans
Speaker 1: people who are attacked and murdered today. Just at a
Speaker 1: good point, Yeah, gay man was shot on the face
Speaker 1: on a street corner in Manhattan by an anti gay
Speaker 1: bigot who had come into town specifically for that purpose,
Speaker 1: to to to find a gay person and harm them.
Speaker 1: What was even more moving was the first gay episcopal
Speaker 1: bishop actually presided over the service and delivered the homily
Speaker 1: and talked very candidly about his experience. And he's so wonderful.
Speaker 1: So three things I want to say to Matt gently,
Speaker 1: rest in this place. You are safe now. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: and Matt, welcome home. I'm in He is amazing. Gene
Speaker 1: Robinson is just one of the most kindest, most compassionate
Speaker 1: people him I've ever met um. And and it's it's
Speaker 1: interesting and I think not all surprising that the first
Speaker 1: moments where he teared up during his remarks before his
Speaker 1: homily was when he talked about how he knows so
Speaker 1: many people in that space, so many LGBTQ people in
Speaker 1: that cathedral had been harmed and traumatized by the church,
Speaker 1: but that they were welcomed and they were home. So
Speaker 1: he addressed what you were talking about, Dan head On,
Speaker 1: and it was really quite remarkable to see and to hear.
Speaker 1: At the same time as this extraordinary service happened, we've
Speaker 1: also seen over the course of eighteen a disturbing increase
Speaker 1: in hate crimes directed at LGBTQ people UM, as well
Speaker 1: as racial minorities and religious minorities. One instance of this
Speaker 1: that struck me was the murder of Blaze Bernstein, who's
Speaker 1: a student who was a student at Penn. He was
Speaker 1: gay and Jewish and targeted by a member of a
Speaker 1: neo Nazi group who also happened to be a former
Speaker 1: classmate of his in Orange County. UM, Dan, what do
Speaker 1: you attribute this increase in hate crimes too? And this
Speaker 1: is for both of you. What can we all do
Speaker 1: about it? I attributed to the great disinhibitor, which is
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. UM. He has given people license to act
Speaker 1: out on their worst impulses. He's legitimized hatred in the
Speaker 1: public square, and he is brought to a boil. People's
Speaker 1: were distincts and impulses, you know, really brought the worst
Speaker 1: out of the worst. It's incredibly distressing. Uh. And Donald
Speaker 1: Trump deserves to have the blame for the spike and
Speaker 1: hate crimes laid at his feet, and the entire Republican
Speaker 1: Party and punditry class of the Republican Party, all of
Speaker 1: them should be held accountable for what they have done
Speaker 1: to our democracy, for the for the poisons that they
Speaker 1: have pumped into our body politics. Do you agree, Sarah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think Dan's absolutely right. I think that
Speaker 1: what we have seen over the last two to three
Speaker 1: years is an increase almost across the board in hate
Speaker 1: based violence and harassment. In the aftermath of the last election,
Speaker 1: the Southern Poverty Law Center found hundreds of hate based
Speaker 1: harassment and violent incidences occurring across the country in just
Speaker 1: the weeks after we did a survey. The Human Rights
Speaker 1: Campaign did a survey of tens of thousands of of
Speaker 1: youth around the country and they overwhelmingly reported an increase
Speaker 1: in bullying and harassment during the school day in the
Speaker 1: lead up to one in the aftermath of the last election.
Speaker 1: Every single time you see UH, Donald Trump and Mike
Speaker 1: Pence release another anti LGBTQ policy, there's a spike in
Speaker 1: calls to suicide hotlines. We at the Human Rights Campaign
Speaker 1: released a report documenting the last year in in deaths
Speaker 1: within the transgender community. Some of those deaths are a
Speaker 1: result of explicit hate crimes. Others are very clearly a
Speaker 1: result of forces and and and discrimination and hatred conspiring
Speaker 1: to push people into circumstances where they're more likely to
Speaker 1: face violence. UH this year, at least twenty two transgender
Speaker 1: people have died through fatal violence, and I think to
Speaker 1: the steps that we can take. Obviously, there's a number
Speaker 1: of different steps legally that we can take, in terms
Speaker 1: of more states passing inclusive hate crimes laws, in terms
Speaker 1: of law enforcement making sure that they're trained and able
Speaker 1: to interact competently with LGBTQ populations, because if you don't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable contacting or engaging with law enforcement, you're less
Speaker 1: likely to be safe from violence. When it comes to
Speaker 1: um securing their protection, teachers and educators I think play
Speaker 1: a massive role in this. It's about making sure our
Speaker 1: schools are more welcoming, that we are nipping this in
Speaker 1: the bud because hate, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: is learned, and if we are creating more inclusive and
Speaker 1: welcoming schools, that will go a long way. While there
Speaker 1: have been some positive strides made in greater representation that
Speaker 1: we discussed earlier in our conversation, I also look at
Speaker 1: television and film and I am heartened by the greater
Speaker 1: representation of LGBTQ people. For example, Love Simon about a
Speaker 1: young gay man queer. I I mean, if that's not
Speaker 1: a celebration of being gay and being human, I don't
Speaker 1: know what is. Also, you know, I would add to
Speaker 1: that list is drag Race, which for ten years has
Speaker 1: been the one place on TV where you could see
Speaker 1: working class gay guys. Gay guys have been to prison
Speaker 1: in non native English speakers, immigrants here are gay guys,
Speaker 1: poor people who are gay guys, also gender not conforming
Speaker 1: and trans people. So much long live Root, Paul, because
Speaker 1: you know, one of the criticisms that you hear of
Speaker 1: representations of queer people on television if they're all gay, white,
Speaker 1: upper middle class men. And drag Race for ten years
Speaker 1: has been a place where you can see the real
Speaker 1: diversity of the game mail and not just the game
Speaker 1: mail community and pose which has an incredible cast of
Speaker 1: so many trans folks of color, particularly black transgender women,
Speaker 1: people are being educated by the shows they're watching. For example,
Speaker 1: boy erased, I have yet to see that film, but
Speaker 1: it's all about conversion therapy for so long. I remember
Speaker 1: actually covering stories twenty years ago on the Today's Show
Speaker 1: and people talking about conversion therapy. I think even in
Speaker 1: the case of Matthew Shepard, it still goes on. It's
Speaker 1: still a problem, very much so, and one of the
Speaker 1: one of the actual few uh areas of I think
Speaker 1: significant progress legislative fully that we saw this past year
Speaker 1: was actually in more and more states passing protections for
Speaker 1: LGBTQ youth against the abusive practice known as conversion therapy.
Speaker 1: Do we have any sense of how many people are
Speaker 1: still in conversion therapy programs? You know, it's difficult to
Speaker 1: say for sure, but there are some studies that have documented.
Speaker 1: A report by the uh U c L. A. Williams
Speaker 1: Institute found that roughly seven hundred thousand LGBTQ Americans have
Speaker 1: been subjected to conversion therapy and that currently they estimate
Speaker 1: roughly twenty thousand lgbt Q youth are being subjected to
Speaker 1: conversion therapy around the country, and I get letters at
Speaker 1: my advice column every day from queer kids who were
Speaker 1: subjected to conversion therapy. Recently, I've heard from people just
Speaker 1: in the last week, one kid in the last week
Speaker 1: who's currently seeing a therapist that his parents are compelling
Speaker 1: him to see who is attempting to do conversion therapy
Speaker 1: on him. Sarah, Looking ahead, there are some positive things
Speaker 1: we can anticipate. In two thousand nine teen, same sex
Speaker 1: marriage will be legalized in Austria, Costa Rican, Taiwan, and
Speaker 1: it will be the fiftieth anniversary of Stone Wall. So
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on both of those things. Well,
Speaker 1: I think on the first point, I think it's a
Speaker 1: reflection of the fact that equality is on the march,
Speaker 1: not just here in the United States, but around the globe.
Speaker 1: That this is a global movement, that LGBTQ people exists
Speaker 1: in every corner of this country and every part of
Speaker 1: the globe, and that we in doing so our opening
Speaker 1: hearts and changing minds, not just in blue states, not
Speaker 1: just in the United States of America, but in countries
Speaker 1: around the world, and that equality is inevitable with hard work.
Speaker 1: I think the second point around this is the fiftieth
Speaker 1: anniversary of Stonewall. It's an important point for us to
Speaker 1: sit back and reflect on our progress, because with all
Speaker 1: of the attacks we're seeing, it's easy to get bogged
Speaker 1: down in the negativity. It's easy to lose sight of
Speaker 1: the horizon, and it's easy to forget just how far
Speaker 1: we've come. But the reality is in fifty years fifty
Speaker 1: years ago at the Stone Wall in if you were
Speaker 1: to have told the folks they're the transgender women of color,
Speaker 1: the gay patrons, what would come in the next five decades,
Speaker 1: It would have seemed so impossible that it would have
Speaker 1: been almost incomprehensible. And the fact that we have marriage
Speaker 1: equality in every corner of this nation. The fact that
Speaker 1: we have seen the proliferation of nondiscrimination protections and protections
Speaker 1: against conversion therapy and so many places across this country.
Speaker 1: The fact that a young gay kid was able to
Speaker 1: go to sleep on a Friday night in June of
Speaker 1: two thousand and fifteen having just seen the symbol of
Speaker 1: our country, the White House, light up like a rainbow.
Speaker 1: The fact that I get to meet young transgender kids
Speaker 1: were doing what seemed impossible to me just ten years ago.
Speaker 1: They are both living their truth and dreaming big dreams,
Speaker 1: all at the same time demonstrates how far we've come,
Speaker 1: and that we have transformed in possibility into possibility into reality.
Speaker 1: And that is our challenge to never be pacified by
Speaker 1: our progress, but always recognize just how far we've come.
Speaker 1: We can't be complacent though. We used to live in
Speaker 1: a country of the Voting Rights Act, and then we don't,
Speaker 1: you know, we secured through the Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade,
Speaker 1: abortion rights as a fundamental constitutional right that's been assailed
Speaker 1: and under attack and is pretty much non operative or
Speaker 1: unoperative in many parts of the country. We have to
Speaker 1: defend our gains. I'm not suggesting that, Sarah, you were
Speaker 1: sing that we rest on our laurels and we should
Speaker 1: take moments to marvel at how far we've come, because
Speaker 1: just recognizing the progress that you've made, you know, it
Speaker 1: inspires you to keep pushing to make more progress. But
Speaker 1: we also constantly have to fight a rearguard action in
Speaker 1: this country to defend the rights we've won. I also
Speaker 1: feel like the much maligned Millennials are a real reason
Speaker 1: to hope. I see such a difference in attitude among
Speaker 1: people in their twenties, my daughters who are both twenty two,
Speaker 1: and I mean it, or millennials too, by the way, Yes, sorry, sorry,
Speaker 1: but I really do see such a sea change in attitude,
Speaker 1: such a generational difference. And I don't know about you,
Speaker 1: Dan and Sarah, but that gives me real hope, does
Speaker 1: it you? Dan? It does you know? Sometimes I think
Speaker 1: about my own nieces and nephews, like we're really sealing
Speaker 1: with the millennials, the first generation of adults who grew
Speaker 1: up with openly gay, openly lesbian, buying, trans friends and
Speaker 1: family members, who were incorporated and welcomed as themselves and
Speaker 1: entirely welcomed and loved and embraced by their families and
Speaker 1: their communities. That psyches me out, gives me help, And
Speaker 1: it's a credit to all the people who came out
Speaker 1: when it wasn't easy or possible to be out or
Speaker 1: as out as people are able to be today. We
Speaker 1: wouldn't be here but for the queer as a stone
Speaker 1: wall who picked up the bricks and through them. And
Speaker 1: I think we need more people who stand up, and
Speaker 1: not just within the community, but outside the community. And
Speaker 1: I hope you know that you have always have an
Speaker 1: ally in me and in Brian, so thank you both
Speaker 1: so much for coming in. Thank you, thank you how
Speaker 1: much for having Thank you very much. Guys. We'll take
Speaker 1: a quick break and then we'll speak with Chamel Bowie
Speaker 1: and Maria Inajosa about the year in Race that's right
Speaker 1: after this. America is changing and along with those changes,
Speaker 1: a lot of people are facing huge financial challenges. Brian
Speaker 1: So Prudential and financial wellness expert Alexandra Draine are traveling
Speaker 1: across America to learn more about the changing financial landscape
Speaker 1: in a new project called The State of Us. Alexandra
Speaker 1: has devoted her career to inspiring people to lead healthier, happier,
Speaker 1: and more engaged lives, and over twenty years, she's consulted
Speaker 1: with leaders and influential thinkers all across the globe. You
Speaker 1: can join her as she partners with Prudential and they
Speaker 1: travel across the country talking to people from the town
Speaker 1: with the longest lifespan of the town with the highest
Speaker 1: birth rate to the smallest town in America. Today, less
Speaker 1: than half of us believe we're on track to meet
Speaker 1: our financial goals, and the State of US is working
Speaker 1: to uncover the challenges that are getting in the way
Speaker 1: of financial wellness, and they're teaching us how to fight them.
Speaker 1: Because while our financial challenges may feel greater than previous generations,
Speaker 1: they are not insurmountable. So to learn more about the
Speaker 1: financial challenges facing our country, you can visit Prudential dot
Speaker 1: com slash State of US. That's Prudential dot com slash
Speaker 1: State of US. Now back to the podcast for our
Speaker 1: last segment today, we're talking about what this year meant
Speaker 1: for race relations in the United States. Joining us for
Speaker 1: this conversation Jamal Bowie and Maria and Ajosa. Jamal is
Speaker 1: the chief political correspondent for Slate and a political analyst
Speaker 1: for CBS News, and he's also a uv A alum had.
Speaker 1: It's like we stacked the deck with wa who's today? Anyway,
Speaker 1: we know Jamal is the real deal because he still
Speaker 1: lives in Charlottesville. Wow, now you're my third favorite uv
Speaker 1: Alm Katie. Oh my god, I'm kidding. I'm sorry. We're
Speaker 1: also speaking to Maria in a Hosta, the longtime host
Speaker 1: and executive producer of the public radio show Latino USA.
Speaker 1: Maria also hosts a PBS show called Maria in a
Speaker 1: host So one on one She's won Emmy's and peabodies
Speaker 1: for her work. She's a very distinguished journalist. We began
Speaker 1: our conversation by talking about one of the biggest and
Speaker 1: most high profile personalities of the year, Colin Kaepernick. Jamal,
Speaker 1: I'm curious about what you think Colin Kaepernick did in
Speaker 1: terms of advancing African Americans and some of the issues
Speaker 1: that we're facing in terms of phrase this year. Kaepernick
Speaker 1: does a fair amount of charity work, and he's been
Speaker 1: a vocal spokeperson African and issues of police brutality and
Speaker 1: police violence. But I think the more significant thing about
Speaker 1: Kaepernick is not so much what he has done in
Speaker 1: more acts, that he is the public face of this
Speaker 1: new Nike campaign. And I think it's significant because the
Speaker 1: brand at least believes that what Kaepernick stands for is
Speaker 1: likely to be the mainstream position the mainstream politics at
Speaker 1: some point in the not too distant future, or the
Speaker 1: likely position of people who are buying Nike products. Right.
Speaker 1: I mean, were you surprised when that was announced, When
Speaker 1: suddenly we saw that portrait of Colin Kaepernick everywhere is
Speaker 1: the face of Nike. I was surprised because I do
Speaker 1: think it represents something of a risk. There will be
Speaker 1: some consumers, some people who will not want to purchase
Speaker 1: Nike products now that Colin Kaepernick is the face of
Speaker 1: the brand, but it is. I think again, it's very significant,
Speaker 1: and I think that sends a signal or it may
Speaker 1: suggest where American culture is going in how perhaps five
Speaker 1: or ten years down the road. But appears to be
Speaker 1: a divisive issue today, is very likely not going to
Speaker 1: be astibusive um in part because of the demographics of
Speaker 1: the country and where those are growing. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: Serena Williams. She became a huge story when at the
Speaker 1: US Open she expressed her anger out on the tennis court.
Speaker 1: I don't cheat. I didn't get I didn't say it.
Speaker 1: You own a police. I have never cheated in my life.
Speaker 1: I have a daughter, and I staid it's my heart.
Speaker 1: I've never seaten. And the intersection of sports and gender,
Speaker 1: I think was so clear with the Serena Williams incident
Speaker 1: and chaml for you as you watched the conversation. I
Speaker 1: remember watching that match, watching Serena and just seeing it
Speaker 1: explode on social media. What struck you about not only
Speaker 1: what Serena did during the US Open, but the reaction
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the reaction um to Williams's actions,
Speaker 1: and specifically from her defenders, I think shows the extent
Speaker 1: to which Serena Williams is almost transcended tennis as a
Speaker 1: figure in popular culture that people. And I wasn't following
Speaker 1: it too closely, but I was following way closely enough
Speaker 1: to notice that some of the people who were vocally
Speaker 1: defending Serena Williams weren't even big tennis fans, but they
Speaker 1: were fans of her. They were fans of what she
Speaker 1: represents um, and they saw this as profound disrespect to
Speaker 1: a woman who arguably is the reason anyone cares about
Speaker 1: women's tennis in the first place. There is a sense
Speaker 1: and the reaction sort of how dare you disrespect this
Speaker 1: person who has done a lot for the sport and
Speaker 1: who does a lot for us by virtue of what
Speaker 1: she represents and how she carries herself and who she is.
Speaker 1: America Ferrera is another name, Marie I think, who had
Speaker 1: really came out in a very sort of strong way
Speaker 1: about sexual harassment. She was a key figure in the
Speaker 1: Times Up movement. She edited a book. How important was
Speaker 1: her high profile this year? You know, America did stand
Speaker 1: out because she's you know, she's kind of everywhere. She's
Speaker 1: on television, she's writing the book. We all know she
Speaker 1: had a baby. You know, we're kind of following her.
Speaker 1: But America has been she's been owning her voice for
Speaker 1: a while. So she was very prominent in the Hillary
Speaker 1: Clinton campaign. She was a very prominent activist for the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party and has been and and in many ways,
Speaker 1: you're right. What she did in terms of times up
Speaker 1: was that she was helping to make this beyond a movement.
Speaker 1: It was like, what do we stand for? Creating a
Speaker 1: whole legal defense and education fund, kind of really trying
Speaker 1: to understand how you tackle this from a strategic and
Speaker 1: structural place as opposed to just protest. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of America thinking really strategic. Lee. I think she also
Speaker 1: got a lot of street cred because I think for her,
Speaker 1: because she is Latino, talking about really expanding this whole
Speaker 1: movement outside of Hollywood and talking about people who are
Speaker 1: working on factory floors, who are working uh in homes,
Speaker 1: who are working as clerks and stores. I mean, I
Speaker 1: feel like for whatever reason, that seemed to resonate in
Speaker 1: a way that didn't necessarily resonate when you looked at
Speaker 1: a white actress talking about these issues, right, because what
Speaker 1: she was saying is, if you think about women being
Speaker 1: sexually harassed in Hollywood, think about the women who picked
Speaker 1: the grapes or the blueberries or the raspberries that you're eating.
Speaker 1: The bigger connection for me, though, Katie, is that, um,
Speaker 1: what America kind of symbolizes in ten is the many, many,
Speaker 1: many Latinos who are owning their voice and owning their power.
Speaker 1: And we've all witnessed this, right. So for example, there's
Speaker 1: moment in the elevator with Senator Jeff Flake on Monday,
Speaker 1: I still in front of your office with Addie Martin.
Speaker 1: I told the story of my sexual assault. I told
Speaker 1: them because I recognize the report story that she's telling
Speaker 1: that you what you're doing is allowing someone who actually
Speaker 1: violated in a woman to sit in the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: That was Anna Maria Chilau. After that, sure, we all did.
Speaker 1: We were all, you know, like, hey, and I've actually
Speaker 1: known Ana for years because she gets to that point
Speaker 1: of being able to step in that elevator because of
Speaker 1: the fact that she's been trained as an activist, because
Speaker 1: she's an immigrant rights activist, So you see how people
Speaker 1: are making the connection she's taking on the issue of
Speaker 1: sexual violence. But she was trained as an activist because
Speaker 1: she's an immigrant rights activist, and her own story is
Speaker 1: so compelling to what happened to her when she was
Speaker 1: just five five years old, and she didn't speak about
Speaker 1: that for a long, long, long time. But like Anna
Speaker 1: Maria Chila, then you'd have to say, well, Emma Gonzalez,
Speaker 1: Ama Gonzalez from Parkland, who you know was leading the
Speaker 1: March for Our Lives, this is another young Latina who
Speaker 1: has changing the way we're thinking about politics. And then
Speaker 1: of course that ends up in the mid terms with
Speaker 1: Alexander Cortez and many other Latinas who are entering Congress.
Speaker 1: Latina's were making these quote unquote intersectional connections. It's a
Speaker 1: difficult word, but we're making the connections between how we
Speaker 1: who we are as Americans, who we are as as
Speaker 1: people engaged in American politics in my view as a
Speaker 1: as a journalist, and we're saying we have something very
Speaker 1: particular to bring and to add to the conversation. Well, Maria,
Speaker 1: you segued us very nicely from biggest names to biggest
Speaker 1: moments and perhaps the biggest moment of the year was
Speaker 1: the mid term election. And Jamale, I'm curious about the
Speaker 1: role that you think race played. What's your assessment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the story of raising these elections a little
Speaker 1: complicated in the You can think of it from several
Speaker 1: different perspectives. The first was just the fact that the
Speaker 1: President kind of wrapped up his mid term message with
Speaker 1: UM fearmongering about a group of asylum seekers heading for
Speaker 1: the United States border and referring to them as sort
Speaker 1: of this rapidly approaching threat that will overwhelm American borders
Speaker 1: and destroyed communities and so on and so forth, and
Speaker 1: all of this was not true, and there's there's quite
Speaker 1: a bit of great journalism debunking the president essentially. But
Speaker 1: I think the effect of that messaging, which I think
Speaker 1: you could accurately describe as as race baiting UM ended
Speaker 1: up likely juicing enough rule turnout that the Republican Party
Speaker 1: could hold on or flip Senate seats in Florida, could
Speaker 1: win in Indiana as well, could help be Claire mccashkill
Speaker 1: in Missouri, and essentially keep the Senate from falling out
Speaker 1: of Republican hands. Now in the end. You know, the
Speaker 1: Republican Party began this Congress with fifty two senators. It
Speaker 1: will end this congress with fifty three senators, so um
Speaker 1: or begin the next one. So the net effect um
Speaker 1: wasn't that great, but it's still meaningful that the party
Speaker 1: was able to hold on to the Senate in the
Speaker 1: face of real democratic energy and um public discontent. So
Speaker 1: that's that's the first way I think race played a
Speaker 1: part in the elections. The second way is the fact
Speaker 1: that Democratic primary voters seemed to have a real appetite
Speaker 1: for diverse candidates. And I think most of the narrative
Speaker 1: around this has been in terms of women broadly as
Speaker 1: a class, But if you look just a little deeper,
Speaker 1: you see it's specifically women of color and so A.
Speaker 1: Kasia Cortez in New York, Ianna Pressley in Massachusetts, UM
Speaker 1: deb holland UH Lauren Underwood in Illinois. And what striking
Speaker 1: is they don't necessarily represent majority minority districts. Many of
Speaker 1: these candidates represent majority white districts. Most racially tolerant whites
Speaker 1: are becoming Democrats, and at least racially tolerant whites are
Speaker 1: becoming Republicans. And this is reshaping the electorate along lines
Speaker 1: that aren't exactly even it was very exciting for Latina
Speaker 1: women with Alexandria Occasio Cortez, you have Veronica Escobar, Sylvia
Speaker 1: Garcia and by the way, a record forty three Latinos
Speaker 1: will be serving in Congress in two thousand nineteen. So
Speaker 1: why such a change do you think this go around?
Speaker 1: So Latinos and Latinos, it looks like they kind of
Speaker 1: got the message. I've been very concerned because you know, Katie,
Speaker 1: So the joke is is that I'm a Mexican, so
Speaker 1: I have sixteen jobs. One of those sixteen jobs is
Speaker 1: that I'm a professor. So I'm with young people, and
Speaker 1: I've been very concerned feeling their kind of exasperation with
Speaker 1: the electoral politics. Um and so I was very concerned,
Speaker 1: arned about what was going to happen with the mid
Speaker 1: terms because when we turn out, yeah, in terms of turnout,
Speaker 1: because if you are consistently attacked, does that make you
Speaker 1: feel like, Okay, let me go and vote. And I
Speaker 1: do think that one of the big stories of this
Speaker 1: moment is and if you look at Texas as an example,
Speaker 1: the Latino Latina turnout in Texas and the activism around Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it was for for Betto or Rourg
Speaker 1: or for the other Latinos and Latinos who got elected
Speaker 1: from the state of Texas. Everybody had been saying, you know,
Speaker 1: when is it going to happen? When when is it
Speaker 1: going to happen? In terms of Latino Latina turn out, well,
Speaker 1: I think we're seeing in real life and Jamal. Before
Speaker 1: we wrap up our discussion of the mid term elections,
Speaker 1: we also saw two huge stars in the Democratic Party,
Speaker 1: both African Americans UH run and lose races for governor
Speaker 1: just by a hair Stacy Abrahams and Georgia Andrew Gillham
Speaker 1: in Florida. Allegations of voters suppression around both races. We're
Speaker 1: do you think we go from here in terms of
Speaker 1: those two individuals as well as sort of the the
Speaker 1: broader challenge of making sure that everyone who wants to
Speaker 1: vote gets their vote counted. Well, As far as those
Speaker 1: two individuals it is concerned, I think they both have
Speaker 1: very bright futures. Um Gillum in particular, went from being
Speaker 1: the mayor of Tallhassee, which is no small thing, to
Speaker 1: being a nationally known grouper natorial candidate and did so
Speaker 1: almost by surprise. He won his primary, striking victory from
Speaker 1: behind that no one really saw coming, and he came
Speaker 1: closest to winning a grouper in Troyal racist Democrat in
Speaker 1: Florida uh since the two thousands. And so although he
Speaker 1: lost his race, the Florida electorate also repealed uh felon
Speaker 1: disenfranchisement from most felons in the state. And so that's
Speaker 1: one point four million and disitional people added to in
Speaker 1: the pool of potential voters. And you can imagine in
Speaker 1: twenty two a concerted effort to get some portion of
Speaker 1: the people registered and ready to vote for a second
Speaker 1: run from Guillam. So I don't think this is the
Speaker 1: last we've seen of him. Abrams likewise, and I'll say
Speaker 1: I think you know, Abrams ended her race with a
Speaker 1: concessan spiece that wasn't really a concession speech. It was
Speaker 1: a speech essentially saying that this was not a fair election,
Speaker 1: that my opponent, who served as Secretary of State for
Speaker 1: Georgia responsible for administering elections, did everything you can, both
Speaker 1: in this election and in prior cycles to remove people
Speaker 1: from the ballot, and specifically people who vote for Democrats,
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands that people were moved from the roles
Speaker 1: over the course of just a few years, um far
Speaker 1: more than you'd expect given just population change. The case
Speaker 1: Abrams made to her voters into the public at large
Speaker 1: was that something needs to be done about this, and
Speaker 1: instead of, you know, slinking into the night, I'm going
Speaker 1: to use my campaign infrastructure. I'm going to use my
Speaker 1: connection to Georgian politics. I'm going to use my past
Speaker 1: organization building to spearhead and effort to reverse these attempts
Speaker 1: to restrict access to the ballot. And so I think
Speaker 1: Abrahams will very much be in not just Georgia politics,
Speaker 1: but national politics for the foreseeable or for the near future.
Speaker 1: And I think her approach to this, I think will
Speaker 1: be replicated in other states by other Democrats. Let's step
Speaker 1: out of politics and talk about a few other key
Speaker 1: moments that happened this year. I'm reminded of Papa John's CEO,
Speaker 1: John Schnatter, stepping down after using the N word during
Speaker 1: a training call, and Megan Kelly talking about blackface uh
Speaker 1: and Halloween costumes and summarily being fired for those comments.
Speaker 1: And yet Jamal one of Donald Trump's biggest applause lines
Speaker 1: is to attack political correctness. And I saw a poll
Speaker 1: recently in which is significant number of Democrats bemoan the
Speaker 1: rise of political correctness. Do you think that we've overreacted
Speaker 1: to some of the bad words or even bad deeds
Speaker 1: that people in public life have have made, or do
Speaker 1: you think that this whole movement is kind of an
Speaker 1: appropriate uh staff and reaction to abuses that have gone
Speaker 1: on for far too long. The interesting thing about that
Speaker 1: political correctness poll was that and I think it's showed
Speaker 1: something like eighty percent of Americans didn't like political correctness,
Speaker 1: but didn't define political correctness, and so it's this very
Speaker 1: vague definition of a somewhat vague term um that has
Speaker 1: a negative connotation. But having said that, I think that
Speaker 1: behavior by individual people in society follows norms, follows elite signals,
Speaker 1: follows larger political culture, and a political culture in which
Speaker 1: open bigotry doesn't receive any particular sanction, I think can
Speaker 1: create a situation where down the line people feel more
Speaker 1: comfortable expressing forms of bigotry. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: one consequence of of the election of President Trump has
Speaker 1: been that in the American society of that people have
Speaker 1: become more open to voicing racially biased opinions and other
Speaker 1: kinds of bigoted opinions because you know, the President United
Speaker 1: States voices them too. And there has been an uptick
Speaker 1: in biased crimes against Jewish Americans, against Black Americans, against
Speaker 1: immigrants again tell TBT Americans, and so these seems are real, right, Like,
Speaker 1: this isn't It isn't the case that people are getting
Speaker 1: offended over irrelevant or trivial things. So one of the
Speaker 1: most horrifying moments or stories this year was the fourth
Speaker 1: separation of migrant kids from their parents at the border.
Speaker 1: And the deadline has now passed to reunite children with
Speaker 1: their parents, but there are still hundreds of families who
Speaker 1: have not been reunited. Um Maria and Jamal, you've both
Speaker 1: reported on this story. Will the Trump administration ever successfully
Speaker 1: fixed the problem that they've created here? So this is
Speaker 1: not a problem that is only a problem to the
Speaker 1: Trump administration. In other words, what we have to recognize
Speaker 1: is that children have been being taken from their families
Speaker 1: um at the border for a long time. In fact,
Speaker 1: if you kind of do a pullback, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to go really really wide historically for you guys, because
Speaker 1: I needed to do this myself to kind of understand.
Speaker 1: And children were being taken from their parents as Africans
Speaker 1: because we were told in this country that they were property.
Speaker 1: Native children were taken away because they were seen as
Speaker 1: an uneducated or savage. UM. Children were taken from their parents,
Speaker 1: UM when they were put into so called internment camps.
Speaker 1: So the uptick in terms of immigration was something that
Speaker 1: you know, under the Trump administration has taken a different turn.
Speaker 1: So zero tolerance, UM, you know, created by this administration
Speaker 1: and by Jeff Sessions, UM, was all about that exactly,
Speaker 1: zero tolerance and we will take your children, and that's
Speaker 1: going to be an act of punishment. I think one
Speaker 1: of the things that was really horrifying for me to
Speaker 1: hear was when I was down reporting actually about a
Speaker 1: Latino man who runs the shelters where these children are
Speaker 1: being placed. And our story on Latino USA was, you know,
Speaker 1: the moral dilemma of Juan Sanchez. You know, he's sheltering
Speaker 1: these children, but he's also making a profit off of
Speaker 1: doing this, and UM, the fact that that we have
Speaker 1: to recognize that there is a different way of looking
Speaker 1: at this. We're talking about family separation. That's a very scientific,
Speaker 1: clinical way to talk about children being ripped out of
Speaker 1: the arms of their parents. So I do think though
Speaker 1: that this moment of seeing children in cages, of hearing
Speaker 1: those cries, this is something that will not be forgotten
Speaker 1: in UM and I do think that we will see
Speaker 1: what happens in terms of the presidential elections. But immigration
Speaker 1: actually didn't used to be the most important issue for
Speaker 1: a lot of people. This president has actually made it
Speaker 1: one of the most important issues, and not necessarily because
Speaker 1: people want to build a wall, but because now they
Speaker 1: care about what's happening, and that that maybe, as we
Speaker 1: say in Spanish, which is like get backfired on Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: people care now because he's kind of exposed how brutal
Speaker 1: it can be. Are there still children who remained separated
Speaker 1: from their parents? Because the news cycle is so fast,
Speaker 1: I feel that that story has come and gone and
Speaker 1: people are not their mind. No, no, no, there are.
Speaker 1: And what's different now is that, UM, we have fourteen
Speaker 1: thousand children right now being held by this government. Immigrant children.
Speaker 1: Some of those children came on their own, in other words,
Speaker 1: the parents couldn't even afford to come themselves and simply
Speaker 1: said to their kids in the kind of Sophie's choice,
Speaker 1: go go and find safety. So some of those are
Speaker 1: those kids. Others are children who are still being separated.
Speaker 1: So we have more to ldren now being held by
Speaker 1: this government who are immigrants than at any other time.
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why they continue to be
Speaker 1: held is because when family members want to come and
Speaker 1: take the children, family members who are undocumented have been
Speaker 1: picked up by Ice. When they're trying to come and
Speaker 1: pick up these children. That's we have to open our
Speaker 1: eyes to how horrific this kind of the ice industrial
Speaker 1: complex has become. But it seems to me immigration reform
Speaker 1: is really necessary because you do kind of understand that
Speaker 1: you can't have completely poor completely it's completely necessary to
Speaker 1: just crazy like come up with a plan that works
Speaker 1: and some kind of process that works, and some kind
Speaker 1: of humane way to treat people who are seeking asylum.
Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems like a big mess, Maria.
Speaker 1: It does. It is a big mess. And and sadly,
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, because of his rhetoric this this has really
Speaker 1: made it feel like a police state for undocumented immigrants
Speaker 1: and for many immigrants. Um. But it didn't start with him.
Speaker 1: It was President Bill Clinton who signed these laws into effect.
Speaker 1: In they were ramped up under George W. Bush. President
Speaker 1: Obama could have done immigration reform in the first one
Speaker 1: days when they had the House in the Senate, he
Speaker 1: chose not to. And President Barack Obama, a constitutional lawyer,
Speaker 1: was overseeing the massive deportation of more people than any
Speaker 1: other president in history. So it is a collective responsibility.
Speaker 1: It is on everyone's shoulders, but sadly it has gotten
Speaker 1: incredibly worse under the Trump administration. Do you think Jamal
Speaker 1: in two thousand nineteen, we'll see Congress try to tackle
Speaker 1: this or will it basically never be dealt with? May thing.
Speaker 1: There's certainly an appetite among um Democratic lawmakers, some newly
Speaker 1: like the Democratic lawmakers to um craft a humane solution
Speaker 1: to the problem of people living in the United States
Speaker 1: who do not have documentation. And I think it's sort
Speaker 1: of important to frame that as being kind of that
Speaker 1: the grand issue of immigration reform. Border crossings are at
Speaker 1: an all time low, right and even there there hasn't
Speaker 1: even been a significant increase in asylum seekers. We have
Speaker 1: sort of procedures for asylum seekers that aren't being overwhelmed.
Speaker 1: Um they they they are orderly. UM. The sense that
Speaker 1: the border is somehow being besieged by um sort of
Speaker 1: large numbers of asylum seekers and immigrants is something President
Speaker 1: Trump likes to put forth to help his political agenda,
Speaker 1: but doesn't really reflect the truth of the situation. What
Speaker 1: we do have are ten eleven million people in the
Speaker 1: United States who do not have documentation, who have stable lives,
Speaker 1: who have jobs, who have families, and uh. Most Americans
Speaker 1: believe that they should have some pathway to legal status
Speaker 1: and citizenship, and that is the issue. UM. And while
Speaker 1: they're I think there is a consensus among Democrats about
Speaker 1: trying to create a path the citizenship for those people,
Speaker 1: there is no consensus among Republicans. And as long as
Speaker 1: that's the case, the only hope for getting some sort
Speaker 1: of conference of immigration reform is if Democrats once again
Speaker 1: hold a trifecta of the House, the Senate, and the
Speaker 1: White House. To me, the connection has to be kind
Speaker 1: of because I was thinking about language and hate speech
Speaker 1: and you know, kind of political correctness. You know, the
Speaker 1: word illegal to refer to a human being is something
Speaker 1: that has been it's kind of normalized in our country
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. Myself included. That feels like
Speaker 1: hate speech. Um, and you know, the person who taught
Speaker 1: me never to refer to a human being as illegal
Speaker 1: was l VZL, survivor of a Holocaust. He said, never
Speaker 1: referred to a human being as illegal. That is the
Speaker 1: first thing that the Nazis did. If you're calling them illegal,
Speaker 1: then there you're dehumanizing them. Then their lives don't really matter.
Speaker 1: Then they themselves are an illegal entity. Then it's okay.
Speaker 1: If you're housing them like this, then it's okay. If
Speaker 1: you're taking away their children, then it's okay. If you're
Speaker 1: separating and ripping up families. I know it's smell. It
Speaker 1: feels really small. But in some ways, part of what
Speaker 1: we can do to lessen the fear of this moment
Speaker 1: is in fact to think about the words. So looking
Speaker 1: ahead to two thousand nineteen, to to wrap things up,
Speaker 1: Chamal and Maria, what would you like to see happen?
Speaker 1: And are you optimistic any of it will? I am
Speaker 1: incredibly optimistic right now because I feel like after these
Speaker 1: mid terms we have seen something that I feel like
Speaker 1: there's hope for American democracy. We're not going anywhere, none
Speaker 1: of us, right, And so in that sense, UM. I'm
Speaker 1: hopeful that people feel very alive, they feel very woke,
Speaker 1: if you will, and UM, and they feel engaged. And
Speaker 1: that is something that you can't put a dollar sign on, right,
Speaker 1: That is something that we are all living and experiencing.
Speaker 1: It's been a really challenging but I think the other
Speaker 1: side of it is that people are saying, boy, we're tired,
Speaker 1: but we're not staying quiet. And that's what a democracy
Speaker 1: looks like. And that's that's wonderfully exciting. What I think
Speaker 1: will be interesting will be to see how our public
Speaker 1: conversations around race and racism and bias are different when
Speaker 1: you have a new sort of generation of young leaders
Speaker 1: of color UM able to jump into the mix and
Speaker 1: make their voices heard. One thing that I remain astounded
Speaker 1: by is uh incoming Rep. Alexander Kaja Cortez's ability to
Speaker 1: sort of command media attention, UM and to to make
Speaker 1: her to insert herself into the conversation and drive it
Speaker 1: in a particular direction. And as if with with voices
Speaker 1: like her in the mix and others UM, I think
Speaker 1: some of the you know, cultural and political flashpoints of
Speaker 1: the past two years will play out very differently next year.
Speaker 1: Just by virtue of the fact that there are different
Speaker 1: kinds of people with different kinds of priorities and interests
Speaker 1: responding to them. So that will be interesting to watch.
Speaker 1: Some how how will play out, but it'll be very
Speaker 1: interesting to watch. And as you said, people like Stacy
Speaker 1: Abram's being out of the mix, but staying in the mix, right,
Speaker 1: you know, making sure that these issues don't recede, but
Speaker 1: they stay in the forefront um. And I do think
Speaker 1: I said it earlier when we had a conversation about
Speaker 1: the LGBTQ community. This younger generation is not going to
Speaker 1: tolerate a lot of things, and I think that's very heartening.
Speaker 1: They're going to keep the conversation going and keep attention
Speaker 1: on some of these issues, and they're going to be
Speaker 1: like a dog with a bone, They're not going to
Speaker 1: let it go. Jamal and and Maria, thank you all
Speaker 1: for coming to our podcast and discussing the state of
Speaker 1: race relations. Is complicated and broad as that topic is,
Speaker 1: but certainly a lot is happened this year, and I
Speaker 1: think a lot of consciousness has been raised and people
Speaker 1: are more woke than ever, as they say, and I
Speaker 1: think that's a good thing me too. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you guys. That does it for us today, Brian.
Speaker 1: The podcast dream team is producer Emma Morgenstern, Associate producer
Speaker 1: Nora Richie, and audio engineer Jared O'Connell. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: Brendan Burns at Earwolf l A for recording me, as
Speaker 1: well as Jamal Milner. A special thanks to Beth de Mos,
Speaker 1: my assistant, Julia Lewis, the social media prodigy, and Jen
Speaker 1: Brown who helps us book guests here on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Jared Arnold composed our theme music. You can find me
Speaker 1: on Twitter at goldsmith b and Katie continues to be
Speaker 1: an influencer of epic proportions on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter
Speaker 1: and especially Instagram as what else Katie Kerr don't forget snap.
Speaker 1: If you have thoughts about the show or questions for us,
Speaker 1: please reach out. Our email address is comments at current
Speaker 1: podcast dot com, or you can leave us a voicemail
Speaker 1: by calling nine to nine to two four four six
Speaker 1: three seven. Thanks as always for listening. We'll talk to
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