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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with

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Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody. Recording from the Home Bunker, Folks.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we chat with our friend, doctor Jonathan Metzel,

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Speaker 1: and I'm very excited about the news that Jonathan and

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Speaker 1: I have for you all to look forward to in

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Speaker 1: the new year. A live interview that will happen at

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Speaker 1: green Light Books in Brooklyn, New York, on February fifth,

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Speaker 1: to celebrate and to discuss Jonathan's new book, What Have

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Speaker 1: We Become? And in today's conversation, you know, we discuss

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Speaker 1: the shooting that took place of the three college students

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Speaker 1: of Palestinian descent. We talk about just you know, the

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Speaker 1: normal cycle of horrific traumatic gun violence in this country.

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Speaker 1: And you know, before you all dive into that conversation,

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Speaker 1: just have been thinking a lot lately, you know, watching

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Speaker 1: a lot of news again, which is just making me

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Speaker 1: utterly depressed, but feeling, you know, really concerned right about

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Speaker 1: where the Democratic Party is right now, where our society

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Speaker 1: is right now, where we are globally, and it just

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Speaker 1: feels so unstable, uncertain, erratic and crazy frankly, And it

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Speaker 1: was funny because I had a friend over the other

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Speaker 1: day and we were talking about the early two thousands,

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Speaker 1: and we were talking about the rise of Barack Obama

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Speaker 1: and where we were when you know, we first heard

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Speaker 1: him right, which was back in the I want to say,

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Speaker 1: was it the two thousand and four DNC convention to

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Speaker 1: announce John Kerry as president? And I remember, you know,

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Speaker 1: being just a couple of years out of college and

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Speaker 1: stopping dead in my tracks listening to his speech. And

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Speaker 1: this is a speech where he talked about this is

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Speaker 1: not about red states or blue states, It's about the

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Speaker 1: United States and folks. You know, as I was having

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Speaker 1: this conversation with my friend, I just felt so sad.

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Speaker 1: I felt so sad because we really thought that was

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Speaker 1: the beginning, the beginning of something amazing, something different, and

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Speaker 1: for a short while it was. But it's you know,

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Speaker 1: this goes back to not understanding that if you don't

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Speaker 1: really learn your history, you can't prepare for your future

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Speaker 1: and be grounded in your presence. And the reason why

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Speaker 1: I say that is because throughout history, every time there

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Speaker 1: has been significant advancement in our society. If it is

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Speaker 1: women's rights, civil rights, if it's the Voting Rights Act,

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Speaker 1: if it's any significant moment that widens the table, widens

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Speaker 1: the aperture of what America can and should be as

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Speaker 1: it strives or strived to live up to its ideals.

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Speaker 1: There is significant whitelash. And why do I say that, Well,

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Speaker 1: because as we acknowledged the death of Henry Kissinger, who

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Speaker 1: was the monster of the twentieth century, whose death count

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Speaker 1: is beyond nations, right, most nations at three and four

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Speaker 1: million people between Cambodia, Chile, Libbya some other places, right,

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Speaker 1: and thinking about what we are uncovering, as mainstream media

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Speaker 1: loves to say, well, you know, he was a complicated figure. No,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't complicated. He was a warmongerer and a war

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Speaker 1: criminal that never faced his day because America makes the rules,

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Speaker 1: they don't follow them. And he right, and Nixon exploited

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Speaker 1: cultural divisions and racial tensions to distract, right from Watergate,

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Speaker 1: Southern strategy, you know, white resentment, fomenting a white lash

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Speaker 1: in this country, to distract from his failings as president,

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Speaker 1: his alcoholism, all of the things that we learn too

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Speaker 1: far after the fact. And so I harken back to

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama providing this sense of unabashed hope right, that

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Speaker 1: we could lean on our better angels, that we could

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Speaker 1: strive to be better, that we are actually better together

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Speaker 1: as a country. And to think, folks, that this is

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Speaker 1: now Jesus so long ago. It feels like a fever

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Speaker 1: dream when you think about all that's transpired between then

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Speaker 1: and now, and you know, it's heartbreaking because I wonder

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Speaker 1: if in my lifetime we will ever get back. But

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Speaker 1: what that will take is extraordinary leadership. It wasn't until

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you honestly, and I'm a student of politics

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Speaker 1: and policy, that truly wasn't until Barack Obama and then

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump that I realize how important leadership is. Democracy

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Speaker 1: isn't about a plug and play anybody literally anybody will do.

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Speaker 1: It requires a steady hand, It requires compassion, It requires empathy.

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Speaker 1: It requires someone to have the character that recognizes when

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Speaker 1: things have gone wrong and is not afraid to course correct.

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Speaker 1: We decided upon Joe Biden not because he was anybody's first, second, third, fourth,

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Speaker 1: or fifth choice, but because we saw him as a

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Speaker 1: bridge across literal troubled waters, dangerous waters, toxic waters. Those

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Speaker 1: waters have not become easy, and they have yet to

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Speaker 1: be claimed. We are still on the bridge, friends, and

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Speaker 1: we are not to the middle yet. And I realize

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Speaker 1: now just how important it is to one argue right

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Speaker 1: like that is the beauty of living inside of democracy,

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Speaker 1: is to create conversation that advances us to be able

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Speaker 1: to constructively argue with this administration in order to make

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Speaker 1: sure that the policies and the actions that are coming

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Speaker 1: out of it are representative of the whole. You don't

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Speaker 1: get to do that inside of an authoritarianism. You don't

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Speaker 1: get to do that inside of Christo nationalism and fascistic rule.

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Speaker 1: So we have to think very seriously about who we

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Speaker 1: are right now and who we want to be. Decade

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Speaker 1: plus ago, we were inspired, we were hopeful. Our only

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Speaker 1: problem was is that we thought that that one election,

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Speaker 1: two election was us reaching the promised land. The reminder

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Speaker 1: of Donald Trump and the rise of MAGA is a

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Speaker 1: reminder of how important it is to remain vigilant, to

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Speaker 1: take politics as seriously as you take any other aspect

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Speaker 1: of your life. You're seeing Joe Biden tone, his tone

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Speaker 1: is changing as it pertains to Israel and Palestine. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think that that's happening because of the pressure

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Speaker 1: from the people. It's why I end every show with

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Speaker 1: power to the people, into all the people power, because

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Speaker 1: when we recognize our power, when we understand it, when

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Speaker 1: we wield it in order to advance our society, we win.

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Speaker 1: So we have to continue with eyes wide open, even

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Speaker 1: if we can't see it now. Even if the Obama

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Speaker 1: years feel like a fever dream, it did happen, and

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Speaker 1: with persistence and vigilance, community and compassion, it can happen again.

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Speaker 1: Coming up next, my conversation with our friend, our in

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Speaker 1: house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever

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Speaker 1: I have the opportunity to speak with our in house doctor,

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Speaker 1: our friend, doctor Jonathan Metzel, I am always thrilled. And

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Speaker 1: coming up in the new year, I know that it

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Speaker 1: feels early, but it's not because we know as soon

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Speaker 1: as the calendar year changes that things go rapidly. Jonathan,

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Speaker 1: you do the honors because it's your brilliant event that

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Speaker 1: you've invited me to.

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Speaker 2: So I'm so excited. So I'm doing a couple of

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Speaker 2: launch events. When when my new book comes out, we're

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Speaker 2: doing a an event here in Nashville for the the

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Speaker 2: mayor is coming. The families are the victims of the shooting.

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Speaker 2: I write about are coming, and then I'm playing to

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Speaker 2: New York and my big New York launch will be

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Speaker 2: in conversation with you. So we're going to do We're

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Speaker 2: going to do a live event on February fifth, Monday

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Speaker 2: night at green Light Books. I keep wanting to say

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Speaker 2: gas Light Books.

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Speaker 1: I know, it's so weird because when I see it,

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Speaker 1: I see Gaslight. But that's not that's it's Greenlight.

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Speaker 2: It's a bad name for a bookstore, but it's I

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Speaker 2: think it's green Light because it's in it's in Ford,

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Speaker 2: Green so and so the it's a great bookstore. Actually

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Speaker 2: I go there pretty pretty often and they do really

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Speaker 2: nice events. And so we'll have much more information about this.

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Speaker 2: But my New York launch is going to be in

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Speaker 2: conversation and maybe we can have so ess film tape

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Speaker 2: the show in front of an audience and do stuff

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Speaker 2: like that. But that'll be Monday night, February fifth, in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: And folks, so if you are in the New York area,

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Speaker 1: you must, must, must come out and support us live.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to us on wo KF for

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Speaker 1: all of these years, that Jonathan has been an incredible

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Speaker 1: voice and guest and friend and so if you're not

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Speaker 1: in the New York area, but you're in and around Nashville,

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Speaker 1: please go out and support him and the new book

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Speaker 1: that is already getting brave reviews. So, Jonathan, let's jump

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Speaker 1: in today with a conversation that because there is so

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Speaker 1: much horrific news and things and issues happening, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to kind of wrap your mind around the recent shooting

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Speaker 1: that happened in Vermont, where three college students of Palestinian

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Speaker 1: descent were shot by what seemingly is a white male

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Speaker 1: whose family and other folks have said is not well,

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Speaker 1: is mentally ill. We've heard this tune and this story before.

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Speaker 1: I don't dismiss mental illness at all, but we're the

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Speaker 1: only country where this happens. We're not the only country

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Speaker 1: with mental illness. We also know, do we think that

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Speaker 1: it was an accident that these three college students happened

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Speaker 1: to be of Palestinian descent? This is what happens when

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Speaker 1: violence is fomented and firearms are readily accessible. So I

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Speaker 1: wanted to give you an opportunity to share your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on these recent events.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it is just a horrible and

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Speaker 2: heartbreaking tragedy you know, we're faced with so much death

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Speaker 2: right now. Twelve hundred people are more murdered in the

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Speaker 2: Hamas terror attacks, over ten thousand people killed in Gaza

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Speaker 2: by the Israeli strikes. You know, it's almost hard to

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Speaker 2: get your head around it in a way. And so

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Speaker 2: then there's stories that come out that just bring this

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Speaker 2: tragedy home and they seem to fit into the category

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Speaker 2: of kind of humanizing humanizing the loss, right. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we saw the protester in Los Angeles who was killed

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Speaker 2: protesting and died in a way that felt very personal

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Speaker 2: for many Jewish Americans, and then this horrible, horrible story

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Speaker 2: of these three like incredible students, thinkers, future leaders, and

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people in the media on

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Speaker 2: all sides, on every side of this, I think, have

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Speaker 2: been trying to do justice to the story of this loss.

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Speaker 2: That Chris Hayes was amazing. I think it was last

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Speaker 2: night having relatives of the one of the guys who

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Speaker 2: was shot of talking about just how brave and generous

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Speaker 2: these these guys were. And so part of the story

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Speaker 2: is just about how moments of conflict like this really

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Speaker 2: bring out the extremists on all sides, right, I mean,

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Speaker 2: normally we're kind of in the middle, holding the center

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Speaker 2: down and stuff like this is the extreme. But I

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Speaker 2: just think we're in such a volatile moment that we

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Speaker 2: talked about this in my class yesterday, that moments of

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Speaker 2: extremism bring out extremists, and so we're seeing people who

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Speaker 2: are on the extremes of all sides who then come

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Speaker 2: to stand in for everybody, right, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: it's like all people who are this, all people who

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Speaker 2: are that. Now this case is of course doubly tragic

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Speaker 2: because it's hard to know, and I think we don't

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Speaker 2: know yet what to make of it. But it sounds,

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Speaker 2: at least from what I've heard early on, that this

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Speaker 2: wasn't like some ardent Zionist with a gun or something

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Speaker 2: like that. It sounds at least initially like a gun

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Speaker 2: owning white Trump supporter, which is again, it could this

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Speaker 2: could be wrong by the time our show airs here,

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Speaker 2: but it's it's it also fits into the category of

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Speaker 2: just American gun crimes and mass shootings and angry white

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Speaker 2: men with guns and all the things that are entirely

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Speaker 2: you know, related, but different category. And so I think

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Speaker 2: it's hard to know. I mean, we automatically put this

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Speaker 2: into the a category of understandably and I think that's right. Islamophobia,

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Speaker 2: anti Semitism right now that are leading to all of

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Speaker 2: this violence, but this also was something that happened in

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Speaker 2: the United States and it so it ties to us

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Speaker 2: gun issues also, and so I just think it's important

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Speaker 2: to you know, how I think the story plays out.

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Speaker 1: Sorry good no, no, no, go ahead, go ahead.

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Speaker 2: No, That's my point is I think it's important to

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Speaker 2: see how this story plays out, but it doesn't change

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Speaker 2: the outcome. It's just what I was going to say,

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Speaker 2: which is that three incredible young men.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my thing too, is that I feel And

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Speaker 1: you tell me again, Jonathan, because you know your new

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Speaker 1: book is coming out in the new year, which is

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Speaker 1: asking this question like what have we become? Like what

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Speaker 1: is you know, like we have these shootings that take place,

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Speaker 1: and then we in the media, right and politicians part

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Speaker 1: and parcel out like to make sense of what just

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Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, right, that people have too much access

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Speaker 1: to guns, that they're too easily to get, they're too

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Speaker 1: easy to get, and that you know, whether or not

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Speaker 1: we are a country filled with people with mental illness

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Speaker 1: is not even the question. It's the fact that like

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Speaker 1: there are too many guns, that we have two guns,

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Speaker 1: you know, two and a half guns, three guns to

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Speaker 1: every person that is alive in this country. And that

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Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. And so it's like every time

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Speaker 1: there's a shooting, if it is a targeted hate crime,

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Speaker 1: if it is at a concert, at a church, if

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Speaker 1: it is at a mall, Like I'm almost at the

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Speaker 1: point I feel like where I don't care where it

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Speaker 1: is happening, Like I know that it is important, but

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Speaker 1: the it just keeps happening.

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Speaker 2: And I think your question is so important because it

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Speaker 2: plays it speaks to both sides of this right, which

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Speaker 2: is I mean a month ago. A month ago, I

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Speaker 2: was on television because people were killed playing cornhole, and

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Speaker 2: two days ago I was on television because people are

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Speaker 2: walking down the street in Memphis carrying AR fifteen's and

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Speaker 2: the police can't do anything about it. It just become

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Speaker 2: like this we're living with this trauma that is so deep,

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Speaker 2: and so part of the story is a story just

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Speaker 2: about what happens to a nation like ours. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's the story of my book, is what happens to

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Speaker 2: the soul of our nation when we normalize this kind

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Speaker 2: of daily violence. Again, I just want to emphasize two

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Speaker 2: parts of this though, which is, these are three young

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Speaker 2: men who were wearing fia and walking down the street

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Speaker 2: speaking Arabic English my as far as I've learned, so

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Speaker 2: and so I think that the question of is this

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Speaker 2: a hate crime, I think is a very important part

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Speaker 2: of this question. But I also think we just don't

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Speaker 2: know yet, and this need to put it immediately into

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Speaker 2: a category. I mean, I did French television yesterday, that

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Speaker 2: French English speaking television, which I do every couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks now, and the host kept pushing me like, isn't

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Speaker 2: this this, isn't this this? And I kept saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: I know, we immediately want to put this into categories,

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Speaker 2: but I think we need to figure out what it

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Speaker 2: is first, Like we have to tell the story of

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Speaker 2: this shooting, because we don't know quite yet, and even

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Speaker 2: if we know, it's probably going to lead back to

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Speaker 2: somebody had guns and so. But the host got kind

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Speaker 2: of upset with me and really wanted me to like

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Speaker 2: put it into a category right away. But I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It's just it just feels so overwhelming, and again, in

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Speaker 2: the context of everything else. It's just a it's just

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Speaker 2: a moment that talks to the need to I think,

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Speaker 2: come together, and that's not what we're doing. We want

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Speaker 2: a narrative to process all of the trauma we're seeing now.

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Speaker 2: And so it's like it's either one thing or another thing.

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Speaker 2: It's either this or that. And you know, I do

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Speaker 2: a lot of national and international media, and when I

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Speaker 2: try to say, this can be a hate crime, but

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Speaker 2: it can also be a gun crime. Like the host

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Speaker 2: got quite frustrated with me yesterday and said, no, it

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Speaker 2: has to be one thing or another because people just

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's understandable. It's human nature. Right now, We're

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Speaker 2: surrounded by so much trauma, and so the point is,

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Speaker 2: how do we say, man, there are many things happening

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Speaker 2: at once that contribute to this, and we have to

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Speaker 2: understand the complexity of it to address it. But there's

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Speaker 2: so much coming at us all the time. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying that I've been trying to make this

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Speaker 2: point in my especially my international media interviews, to say,

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Speaker 2: the world wants us to say this is one thing

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Speaker 2: or another, and actually there many ways we can understand it,

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Speaker 2: and they're probably all true. At one time, and that

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Speaker 2: leads to like the host saying, well, just tell us

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Speaker 2: is it this or that? You know which is interesting?

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Speaker 1: I believe that there is a desire to make sense

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Speaker 1: of crazy, right like I think you know that is

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Speaker 1: like you're saying, that is our human desire, that is

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Speaker 1: our brains functioning. I need to put said thing in

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Speaker 1: a box so that I can make sense of it.

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Speaker 1: And when you have so much that is happening that

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Speaker 1: does not make sense, I think that that triggers that

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Speaker 1: need even more. Last thought, Uh, last question for you

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Speaker 1: is that what do we need to do in order

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Speaker 1: to recognize that, like this moment, this time, this level

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Speaker 1: of violence just does not make sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question, you know, it's I guess

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Speaker 2: for me, like I've been having a lot of hard

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Speaker 2: conversations recently, like conversations that reach across every divide I

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Speaker 2: can think of. I feel like it's not just the

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Speaker 2: narratives of media right now, but like we're being put

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Speaker 2: into boxes that are really threatening to the alliances that

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Speaker 2: we've been building for so many years. And so, as

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Speaker 2: you know, I teach a class now on guns in America,

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Speaker 2: and I've been having public conversations across every divide. I

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Speaker 2: possibly can you know former friends and colleagues of mine

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Speaker 2: who have taken very different positions from what I have

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Speaker 2: on the Middle East, People who are staunch gun owners.

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Speaker 2: I had a conversation in front of my class yesterday

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Speaker 2: with a friend of mine from softball from fifteen years

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Speaker 2: ago who now has thirty AR fifteen's and thinks the

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Speaker 2: government should be that we should be. He thinks we

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Speaker 2: should be able to carry AAR fifteen's on airplanes. And

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Speaker 2: but I know him, and I say, hey, look, we're

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Speaker 2: totally different. I know we fight on Twitter, or do

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Speaker 2: you want to have a public conversation? And it turned

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Speaker 2: out to be like a really interesting conversation, And so

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Speaker 2: I just think we're the Every algorithm in our life

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Speaker 2: right now is to feel hopeless because we're alone in

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Speaker 2: our tribe. And I've been just for my part of it,

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Speaker 2: trying to say, like, let's have a real world conversation.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we'll hate each other even more afterwards, maybe we won't.

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Speaker 2: But I just want to reject the algorithms that are

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Speaker 2: monetizing that easy divide into one category or another, because

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Speaker 2: I honestly think that's kind of for me, it's it's

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Speaker 2: it's been like my saving grace is to feel like, man,

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Speaker 2: if I look at your tweet, we're on the opposite

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Speaker 2: sides of a life or death battle. And maybe we

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Speaker 2: still are after we have this conversation. But I'd rather

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Speaker 2: have the conversation off off of social media and see

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Speaker 2: what leads us, which has a much smaller penetration. But

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Speaker 2: I do think that just all the world is monetizing

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Speaker 2: dividing us all right now, and how do we come

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Speaker 2: back together? So that's how I've personally been having this conversation,

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Speaker 2: which has led to some uncomfortable moments. I mean, my

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Speaker 2: class yesterday honestly was bonkers, but it led to an

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Speaker 2: incredible conversation about what does it mean to feel safe?

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Speaker 2: And why would somebody not feel safe and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So that's how I've been. I've been trying to like

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Speaker 2: be tribalized when I feel the need, but also break

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Speaker 2: out of the boxes that I've been feel like i've

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Speaker 2: been put in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I think it's important what you're doing

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Speaker 1: to be able to use your classroom as a laboratory

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Speaker 1: for conversation and discussion and to move people outside of

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Speaker 1: social media, because that's what we need to be doing

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Speaker 1: more of and need to continue conversations and not have

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Speaker 1: these kinds of breakdowns that are going to serve the

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Speaker 1: way health of of you know, a limited few Jonathan

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Speaker 1: As always, thank you, my friend for making time for

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Speaker 1: Wok a f I'm so excited and the countdown begins

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Speaker 1: for our live event in February.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate you. Take everybody.

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Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on woke

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Speaker 1: f As always, power to the people and to all

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Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.